Info about Combat Changes please

[Cepheus80]

<DIV>Could a higher lvl Inquisitor who's currently on beta/test give us some details now that the NDA has been removed? Have group cures been changed? How do different healing classes compare to clerics now? Thanks in advance.</DIV>

[Bethin]

<DIV>Group cures have not changed.  They have not modified the training abilities yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically what they have done has lowered our offensive abilites and out healing abilities.  Don't get me wrong, I can still solo just fine, but I don't see where we fit in the end game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our heal to power ratio is better, but at the cost of lower heals.  Adept III SP heals for 75 less per tick for example and the entire line shares the same timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Andalla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bethinna wrote: <div> Our heal to power ratio is better, but at the cost of lower heals.  Adept III SP heals for 75 less per tick for example and the entire line shares the same timer.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Has the Stinging Penance line had its damage shield returned to it?</span><div></div>

[Keldo]

Priest changes are still in progress, so I'll list what I think has been looked at and what hasn't. Heals - these don't appear to have been modified yet in regards to secondary effects (IE they are all gone) Faithful Ministration - Adept 3 is 108 power for 438 - 535 healed Intolerant Healing  - Adept 3 is 160 power for 751 - 918 healed, 8 second recast instead of 9 Scolding Alleviation - Adept 1 is 188 power for 431 - 527 healed to group, 3 sec cast 8 sec recast <--- group heals are MUCH better Stinging Penance - Adpet 3 is 121 power for 5 x 207-253 healed Salutary Diatribe - Adept 1 is 227 power for 9x  183-224 healed None of these have any secondary effects (yet).  Also, ALL spells in a line now share timers.  Means Any single reactive including BoV share SP timer, Soothing Sermon shares Salutary Timer, Xecias/Arch/Intol on same timer.  Could be bad, we will see, I imagine it will be adjusted through testing if we need more heal power as mob DPS is somewhat down as well at the moment. Buffs - these appear to be partially done, some are not finished I would say. Zealot's Conviction - Adept 1 is 1 concentration, increase group max health by 171, increase mitigation vs magic, divine by 516, increase mitigation vs mental by 645 Fervence - Adept 1 is 1 concentration, increase stamina of group by 45, increase group mitigation vs all physical damage by 432 Hallowed Aura - Adept 1 is 1 concentration, Increase max health by 529, increase DPS by 19.5% <----very nice change Act of Faith - Adept 1 is 1 concentration (big change), infinate number of procs, 5% chance, 171 damage, still effects entire group <-- indifferent on this change Harrowing Inquest - Adept 1 is 1 concentration, single target buff (anyone in group), 10% chance to proc: -100 power to the mob, +93 power to caster (not sure if this means the person with buff, or you the inquisitor), can only be cast on 1 person max.  MAJOR change, seems decent but I dont know about the concentration spot, and obviously they thought our draining ability was a little overboard (I mostly agree). Dregs - Adept 1, increases swimming by 80 now and EB.  Would like elemental resist back in some form!  This probably still being worked on. Zealotry - App 2 is 18 power, 18 power every 6 seconds.  Increase INT of group by 37, increase attack speed by 32%, stun target.  This has changed about 4 times so I don't know how it will end up.  Indifferent, although the bonus for casters is a nice addition, I would prefer a version which does not stun. Debuffs / DoTs Cleansing Flames - Adept 1 is 90 power, 100-122 damage.  But with how this works, most pre 40 spells are resisted a ton by  higher T5 and T6, so it does almost nothing.  Not a huge deal as if pattern follows we will get an upgrade at 51-52 anyway. Torment - DoT is lower, and instead of str and sta it debuffs mental resist, not pleased with this change really.  But see cleansing flames as its T4 debuff. Merciless Invocation - no longer a DoT, Adept 1 is 51 power, 123-151 damage.  Stifles target with 20% increased chance to resist (uncer certain conditions), not sure what that means.  Duration 4 seconds, recast 3 seconds.  Decent change, better than 24 seconds then 9 second stifle. Heretic's Fate - 59 power, 247-292 damage at adept 1.  Forget what it is on live, seems basically the same. Litany of Torment - Adept 1 is 113 power, 222-271 damage.  Interrupts targets.  16 second recast.  Damage similar to live, now also interrupts, costs less, and refreshes faster, all nice things. Vitiation - Adept 1 is 73 power, decrease str and int by 46.  Essentially the same, balanced str and int portions of it. Vengeance - Adept 1 is 83 power, inflict 118 damage when target successfully attacks.  Longer recast time (15s)  Nice change here, but seems to only last 5-6 hits (still worth casting). Contempt - Adept 1 is 50 power, decrease mitigation vs everything (including all resists except mental) by 173.  Same situation as cleansing flames, this is a T4 debuff which did not fare well.  Assuming upgrade at 51-52.  Although this is lower, I like how it effects everything, and if the upgrade does the same, no complaints here. Fearful Conversion - unchanged basically and still worthelss although it costs a lot less power I think Coerced Repentance - Big changes here - 102 power, 20 sec recast, 16 sec duration.  Whenever your opponent performs a combat art or spell: Stun Target (under certain circumstances), deal 205-342 damage, stun target (under certain circumstances).  Seems decent, I read this as 2 chances to stun (as individual parts of a spell seem to be able to be resisted) and some unresistable damage.  Nice changes since the spell was broken and useless before. Imprison - costs much less mana, stifles in addition to root.  12 second duration, 30 sec recast.  Seems worthwhile to use as CC now in emergencies. Think thats pretty much it.  Nothing new yet, cures are untouched (although they are now recast 1 second making single target much more viable), other boring stuff I can look up if you want.  No new spells yet, and we will probably get some as it progresses to replace some of our low level things that got hosed that we used at T5 and I assume these will be addressed with new versions. This is all second hand, but up to date<div></div>

[Gaereth]

Thanks for the detailed update Keldoth! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[lucid_dream]

Thanks for the info Keldroth, very intersting. What about Forced Compliance? Can't see it in your listing - was it left out of your list accidently, or doesn't it exist anymore?! <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Erronn]

<P>Yes, thanks for the info...my inquisitor on test is only 21 at the moment, so have only experience the lower level changes. The biggest thing for me so far is, as you mentioned, the placing of all heals in any one line on the same recast timer! I'm sure we've all grown accustomed to throwing multiple heals from one line on our tank to keep him up...can only do a reactive, a 3sec heal, then a 2sec heal before waiting on timers to refresh...ouch!</P> <P>Also, our "HP" buffs, even lower level ones, have changed substantially. Examples:</P> <P>Symbol of Transal Adept 1-</P> <P>  Before: 103HP, 5% chance to increase STR by 4 & increase melee Mitigation by 88</P> <P>  After: 31HP, increase magic/mental/divine Mitigation by 168</P> <P> </P> <P>Daring App 1-</P> <P>  Before: Increase the following: STA of group by 15, Max Power of caster by 18, Max Health of caster by 40, melee Mitigation of caster by 38, melee Mitigation of group by 38, 5% chance for caster to inflict 29-35 damage.</P> <P>  After: Increase STA of group by 12.8, Increase melee Mitigation of group by 112.</P> <P> </P> <P>Redoubt App 2-</P> <P>  Before: Increase Max Health of target by 86.</P> <P>  After: Increase Max Health of target by 93, Increase Slashing and Crushing of target by 2.1, Increase piercing of target by 4.2.</P> <P> </P> <P>As you can see just from these 3 buffs, their purpose has changed dramatically!</P> <P>Cheers!</P> <P>Erronn</P>

[Keldo]

Forced is reduce by 8.4 (?) at adept 1, other than that unchanged.  Not sure if it has been looked at or not.  Sorry it was left off my list. <div></div>

[NNCSava]

Flagellant is now a group cure arcane and elemental - big change I have no problem sticking Torment on many raid mobs, cleansing fire only a little but less so <div></div>

[Sympathe]

<DIV>I know this might seem out of place,  but as it had no upgrade with level, is there any information on Prayer of Amelioration? Is it in the same line as Scolding Alleviation? Has it's cast timer or recast timer been changed? Any information would be greatly appreciated, as believe it or not, I use this quite often on raids.  Thanks...</DIV>

[Keldo]

I believe its essentially the same as it was, but is now on the same timer as our other group heals.  I'll get some exact numbers if I can. I used PoA a lot as well because 5 second cast group heals are worthless, the 2 seconds on PoA made it useable at least. But, with the update, our upgraded group heals are 3 second cast and VERY power efficient.  I don't think PoA is even a concern anymore. <div></div>

[Banditman]

Keldoth, I'm trying to help all the Priests see how they stack up.  I've got a worksheet started here: <a href="http://mail.thetemplars.net/lines_beta1234.htm" target=_blank>Priest Changes Comparison Chart</a> And a thread discussing it here: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=172&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Priest Changes Discussion</a> I'd love to get your data updated and included but some of the information is missing, mostly cast/recast/duration information. If you'll look over those links, you'll see what I mean. Thank you for your time.

[Keldo]

I will try to get this done tonight after my guild's raids. <div></div>

[[sp00k]]

<P>I'm sorry but I am highly ticked off.  We are geting the shaft in every way possible.  Granted some of the changes are for the best but then again they are efficively taking away what it is to be an inquisitor.  I am about to post the templar changes so everyone here can compare.  Templars and Inquisitor's are both Clerics and should be equal with their spells.  (Not the same but equal)  Currently Templars can buff mitigation WAY higher than inquisitors, they can buff HP way higher than us, they can DEbuff physical mitigation more than us, and their reactives are still WAY WAY better.   WHAT IS THE DEAL!  I am [Removed for Content] off I went inquisitor.   We have been quite fairly useful and fairly well tweaked without to many bugs with our spells.  But because Templars are highly played and there is about 10 templars to 1 inquisitor they focus purely on templars and make them the cream of the crop.  Even now we are not that useful in raids.  Haste big deal most melee classes weapons are already at the maxium speed possible.  All in all I think SOE is give us the middle finger.   </P> <P>_______________</P> <P>posted in Templar Fourms.......</P> <DIV> <DIV>Well here is some starting insight on the Templar spell changes currently on test. I just logged in to look at the spell descriptions so didnt do in depth playing with them. These spells are with varying spell level and all from a lvl 50 templars perspective. I will put what it is currently on test first in white then put in <FONT color=#ff0000>red</FONT> what they currently are on the live servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A3 Symbol of Pinzarn - Has a new icon. Group HP + 206, Group Mental +616, Group Magic and Divine +770. </DIV> <DIV>                                      <FONT color=#ff0000>Group HP +373, Group Phys Mitigation +212, Group Str + 6</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>A3 Valor - Group HP +459 (says resistance for Inquisitors group in description, needs to be changed)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                 <FONT color=#ff0000>STA+24, Power +73, Phys Mitigation +530, Weapon proc 5% for 153-186, Mental Mitigation +835</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>App 4 Shielding Faith - Magic/Mental/Divine +484, Group Ward for +825 damage, No concentration, 66 power, 5 min recast, 36 sec duration</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                                      <FONT color=#ff0000>Group Max Power +230, Magic/Mental/Divine +622</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>A3 Sacred Redoubt - Single target HP +635, Crushing/Piercing/Slashing +5.2</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                                   <FONT color=#ff0000>Single target HP +373, Crushing/Piercing/Slashing +2</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>A1 Praetorate - Single target + str and wis by 53</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                          <FONT color=#ff0000>Single target + str and wis by 40</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Waring Faith - Damage 98-120 and 61-75 every 4 seconds, power cost: 90</DIV> <DIV>                             <FONT color=#ff0000>Damage 219-267 and 87-107 every 5.3 seconds, power cost: 156</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Radiance - Heal Target for 45-55</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                   <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal Target for 241</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beneficence - Heal 159-194 triggers 9 times (just like other group reactives)</DIV> <DIV>                        <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal 241 triggers 9 times</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Greater Intercession - Heal target 166-203, power cost:114</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A3 Greater Intercession - Heal target 249 and 325 on termination, increase mitigation of phys damage by 212, power cost 158</FONT>                            </DIV> <DIV>                                         </DIV> <DIV>A3 Crucial Intercession - Heal 214 - 261, power cost: 227</DIV> <DIV>                                         <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal 477 and on termination, increase mitigation of crushing/piercing/slashing by 212, Power cost: 317</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>A3 Bestowal of Vitae - Heal 53-65, power cost: 26</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App4 Word of Restoration - Instant group heal 396-483, power cost: 188, 8 sec recast</DIV> <DIV>                                             <FONT color=#ff0000>Instant group heal 589, power cost 418, 28 sec recast</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Focused Benefaction - Heal 287-350, power cost: 68</DIV> <DIV>                                           <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal 293 - 359, stuns caster, power cost: 120</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App4 Glory of Combat - 5% chance to heal group for 300 on successful attack, power cost: 92, Uses 1 concentration, does not expire now until clicked off now<BR></DIV> <DIV>                                     - <FONT color=#ff0000>5% chance to heal group for 484 on successful attack, power cost: 105</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Reproach - Phys Mitigation -456</DIV> <DIV>                        <FONT color=#ff0000>Phys Mitigation -500, Mental/Magic/Divine -1170)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>App1 Resolve - Absorbs 5 attacks from (thats what the text said, Fragments FTW!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App 1 Mark of Kings - 10% to heal for 42, Icon changed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App1 Involuntary Curate - 10% chance to dispell 44 lvls of crushing/slashing/piercing, Heals target for 42-52, Power cost: 75</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Sign of Infirmity - Prevents target from attacking (resist chance decreased by 19%), only affects targets lvl 67 and below (typo?) Does NOT affect EPIC targets., Power cost: 95, Duration 12 seconds, recast 20 seconds, casting time 1 second</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Salvation - 50% chance to increase power of target 5 for ever 4 seconds, heals target for 679, duration 1 minute, 15 sec recast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Prostrate - Stuns target (resist chance decreased by 19%), only affects targets lvl 57 and below, Does NOT affect EPIC targets. Power cost: 108, 6 sec duration, 30 sec recast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A1 Greater Amelioration - Heal 354-432 , power cost:102</DIV> <DIV>                                          <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal 502, power cost: 141</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>A3 Greater Restoration - Heal 751-918 (no longer dispells poison and disease affects), power cost: 160</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                                         <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal 955, power cost 238</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Vansteds Rain of Faith - Dispells 52-64 lvls of Mental/Divine Effects and +520 mitigation against Divine/Mental, Power cost: 45</FONT></DIV> <DIV>                                        <FONT color=#ff0000>Dispells 90-110 lvls of Mental/Magic/Divine Effects and +645 mitigation against Divine/Mental/Magic, Power cost: 116</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plorsins Elemental Salve - Heal +30, Dispells 45 levels of Cold/Heat: Power cost: 45</DIV> <DIV>                                            <FONT color=#ff0000>Heal +127, Dispells 100 lvls of Cold/Heat, Power cost: 116</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tonmerks Mending Aura - Dispells 28-34 levels of piercing/slashing/crushing effects, +52 mitigation on Phys damage, power cost: 27</DIV> <DIV>                                           <FONT color=#ff0000>Dispells 55-68 lvls of crushing/piercing/slashing, +64 mitigation on phys damage, Power cost: 72</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Daedets Group Antidote - Dispells 16 levels of Poison/Disease effects, power cost: 45</DIV> <DIV>                                          <FONT color=#ff0000>Dispells 100 lvls of Poison/Disease effects, Power cost: 116</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[[sp00k]]

<P>Ohh forgot to mention... WHY IS ARCH on the same timer as our other direct heals now.   I'm level 50 and STILL USE IT.  </P> <P> </P> <P>High there Inquisitors we know you heal but we are gonna take your heals away.  Have a Peachy Day!  </P> <P> </P> <P>Depending on how I see and feel when the changes take affect you will see 1 less inquisitor.   </P> <P>20 T5 Masters, 8 T4 Masters, and 4 T3, and T2 Masters down the drain.    </P> <P>GG</P>

[Keldo]

Our heals are the same as templars (nearly exactly) at the moment, and buff line up is essentially the same as live.  Remember, priest changes are not finished, and still are not finished as of this moment. Arch is on the same timer because they are rebalancing things so we don't have to use [Removed for Content] lower level spells.  Other than that, its hard to judge anything until things are finished. <div></div>

[Kick]

Right now i fell the same as spook. Ive been playing a inquisitor for a full year now in eq2. Sure some of the stuff seems good but in a raid situation these changes will not work. You will need 2 inquisitors todo the job of one. Heh i guess its a good thing we stack in groups. What ever you can kiss soe [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] all you want but the truth of the mater is we are getting the shaft.

[Salastine]

<DIV>If there's one thing i have learned about this revamp, it's that nothing is quite how it seems... what i mean, is, it's impossible to judge the end result of this revamp based on numbers alone.  You can't take screenshots or posted data from a patcular class, and relate it to anything currently in the game.  EVERYTHING is changing, and IMO, for the better.  Add to that the Priest changes are FAR from complete, and i think it's a bit soon to get our panties in a wad.  I think the only people [Removed for Content] reliable enough information to truly panic are those on the Beta server, who unfortunately aren't able to offer all that much atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one am, believe it or not, truly optimistic about these changes.  I think they're headed in the right direction, and am looking forward to more progress in the priest revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> spOOk wrote:<BR> <P>WHY IS ARCH on the same timer as our other direct heals now.   I'm level 50 and STILL USE IT. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think you answered your own question... the intention of SOE has been very very clear ever since they starting talking about spell revamps... grey spells should NOT remain useful at later levels, because they should be UPGRADED.  Right now, pretty much nothing Pre-level 20 shares a timer with anything Post-level 20.. that's a pretty big rift that prolly was never meant to exist.  Spell lines should have smoothly transitioned through 20, just like they did through level 10, 30, 40, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> spOOk wrote:<BR> <P>Templars and Inquisitor's are both Clerics and should be equal with their spells.  (Not the same but equal) . <BR></P> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>e·qual</STRONG>  <BR><I>adj.</I> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another. <LI><U><I>Mathematics.</I></U> Being the same or identical to in value. </LI></OL> <P>I think i understand what you're getting at, but the word "equal" implies more "sameness" than anything else i can think of.</P> <P> Before the Damage on our reactives was removed, i was actually very happy with the balance between Templar and Inquisitor reactives... They get a better group reactive (Quite a bit better but you must admit a group reactive is generally more for specialty-use than a single-reactive), we get a better single-reactive (The healing difference is significant, especially considering a single-reactive is far more useful under "most" circumstances, and can be cast cross-group)  The post-revamp numbers suggest our group- and single-reactives are much closer in value, with still a nod to temps for group and us for singles.  Whichever "effect" they add to our reactives will be the kicker here.   As for direct heals, the numbers (just like currently) look IDENTICAL.  So from a healing perspective, even looking at the numbers provided here w/out context, we seem very well balanced.</P> <P>Buffs and debuffs, i'm sure, still have LOT more tweaking to be done, so i wouldn't base much on the differences there.  However i am actually quite excited with the Buff/Debuff lineup we appear to be aquiring.</P><p>Message Edited by Salastine on <span class=date_text>08-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 PM</span>

[Keldo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Really I don't get what you think Templars have over us, lets go over things 1 by 1 just to see how much of the 'shaft' we are getting. Heals: single reactive - ours used to be better, now they are the same, both lost secondary effects (which I believe are unfinished) group reactive - theirs used to be better, now they are the same, both lost secondary effects arch heal line - used to be the same, still the same, both lost secondary effects minor heal line - used to be the same, still the same, both lost secondary effects group heals - both were useless before, now they are both the same AND they own ADVANTAGE: NONE.  Group heals greatly improved, secondary effects lacking, overall downgrade for both classes if secondary effects stay absent. Core concentration buffs Mitigation - templar gave more mitigation before and mental resist, now they both give +sta and +mit with no secondary effects and stats are the same Hitpoints - both give the same hp now, and before, inquis now buff mental, magic, divine like temp instead of lame +2% dps proc, templars lose + miti proc? its kinda unclear Single HP - both give more hp than they did before, both give equal hp same as before.  Templars buff skill by 5 and we increase dps by 20%.. hmm who wins there, duh ADVANTAGE: Inquisitor.  +DPS owns +skill, we gain resist mitigation in our hitpoint buffs and they gain nothing and lose + mitigation secondary effects Class specific stuff Templar <font color="#ffffff">Shielding Faith - sort of useful as an emergency throw up, but 5 min recast and 36 sec duration, nothing special </font><font color="#ffffff">Praetorate - str and wis buff, but requires concentration so of limited use, guess its ok while soloing? </font>Glory of Combat - Group heal proc, used to be amazing.  Now requires concentration and new group heals are WAY better, this spell is hard to justify using with conc. Resolve - fairly sure this is their emergency spell like flagellent, which means it is now a 2 min reuse group cure Prostrate - 6 sec stun, 30 sec recast, yippie, pretty useless Sign of Infirmity - I seriously doubt this spell works as advertised, except maybe against solo mobs Salvation - same as it is on live basically, divine intervention type spell?  I think he ment 15 minutes not 15 seconds Involuntary Curate - not changed much, still basically not that useful Mark of Kings - downgraded if the description is correct Reproach - AC debuff, also debuffs divine, magic, mental, basically unchanged from live Focused Benefaction  - heals and stuns, same as live basically Waring Faith - Radiant Strike line, same as live, bonus vs undead, yippie do Rays of Faith - same upgrades as our Litany line as far as recast and such go, but no interrupt (?) (think I am missing some spells here, feel free to point them out) Inquisitor Harrowing Inquest - used to be an awesome power drain, till SOE made all mobs essentially undrainable, now its a drain that give us power but costs conc.  Net result - basically as good as Praetorate, potential to be more depending on how power proc goes. Flagellant - see Resolve Fearful Conversion - still useless essentially, see Prostrate Imprison - also stifles in addition to rooting, and costing 1/3 less mana, decent upgrade but root is of limited use to us Vitiation - balanced str and int debuffing, 2 main damage components of mobs under new system, still as useful as ever Vengeance - big damage boost, but limited number of fires, still a big upgrade Merciless Invocation - DD + 4 second stifle with 3 second recast.  Technically you could perma stifle non epics with this, something it can't do now, upgraded Torment - major downgrade, probably our biggest disappointment, same damage potential, however. Cleansing Flames - basically the same as live Coerced Repentance - considering this spell does nothing on live, the fact that it does anything is an upgrade, has high potential to be great Litany of Torment - lower recast, similar damage, interrupts, less mana.  Upgraded. Heretic's Flames - upgraded damage Act of Faith - used to be limitedly useful, now requires a concentration spot.  Suffers much like Glory of Combat, except AoF was nothing special to begin with. Zealotry - Hastes, increases INT, stuns.  Still an excellent spell in its current form, especially with haste being scaled back from other classes and auto attack damage increasing. Contempt - This spell suffers badly, but we must remember it is a level 35 spell.  Which means at level 51 or 52, all signs point to us debuffing mitigation better than Templars who might not even get a T6 upgrade.  Also now buffs ALL resists except mental instead of just elemental, a good sign. Redemption - same as live Force Compliance - downgraded from live, but with skills not effecting hit rate and such, I'm not sure how this spell will end up Instant Stuff Radiance/Evidence of Faith - unchanged / heal portion slightly lowered Templar versions - same Cures/Traits - Traits are all the same as live, they have not been reworked at all, not enough information. Low Level Garbage - Arch Healing - both lose this, after the revamp has been played, no one will even care Splitpaw Heal - obviously not reworked yet and I imagine we will get it back, even if we don't, see arch healing Advantage:  NONE.  In my personal opinion, Inquisitors gain a lot of flavor and some potentially nice abilities.  Templars lose a lot of the mitigation and healing advantage they had over us due to changes in concentration requirements on key spells.  Overall all priests currently look very bland compared to live, however this is because they are unfinished.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 AM</span>

[Keldo]

<div></div><div></div>One more thing for the wannabe templars in this thread:  Please reroll and get it over with. You guys are the same people that said we couldn't heal when you got 50 in December when we were the best single group healers in the game (thank you stifle).  The same people who are likely surrounded by Templars in ub9r goodie guilds.  The same people that overvalue the role group cures play in the current end game.  The same people who think an extra 10-15% mitigation is going to make or break a raid.  The same people that completely discount our small group / solo dominance.  Almost whole year of whining every time Templars come up in a thread, whew. I don't know about you, but as an inquisitor, I like the fact that I can fill the role of MT group cleric and have on hundreds of raids.  At the same time, I bring a 25-30% damage increase to a properly constructed melee DPS group when I am not.  What do Templars 2 thru N bring?  They bring group arcane and elemental cures.  I can count on one hand the number of encounters that REQUIRE those and the rest of encounters they mean nothing.  In fact, group nox is probably more useful than either, and guess who gets those? I like going into single group situation and knowing that I can handle any situation.  I fear absolutely nothing as a single inquisitor in a group.  When things are trivial which is 95% of the time, I can hold my own in the DPS department.  Only in Icy Digs with a sub par tank would I even begin to consider a Templar might be better. I like the fact that not only can I solo, I can flat out dominate any solo mob.  I can even take group mobs, and I'll tell you something else - it doesn't involve me sitting around waiting for them to die as I heal for 30 minutes like tempalrs.  I can walk up to the very difficult Pit Champ and hand him his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on a platter in 3 and 1/2 minutes, find me another priest that can do that. And since I just know you are going to say "come back when u raid x n00b" how about you give some specific examples on those super high end fights where you are so worthless you have to reroll and a templar is superman.  I've raided every instance in the game and I know enough about most contested to feel confident in saying I think you may have trouble coming up with examples. So that leaves you where?  One templar outshines an inquisitor in the MT group on raids.  The rest may as well be Inquisitors.  Stop looking down on your class or reroll because you don't deserve to be one.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 AM</span>

[graxnip]

we've discussed spell changes an all but - can we still take a hit? the fighter > scout > priest > mage heirarchy that was posted before the nda was lifted was bit vague. I think we are the only subclass who's armor sets range from leather to plate - whole world of mitigation difference between the classes here and to set a blanket statement like the above is sorta confusing. Ive assumed the tank role many times in goof around groups - over scouts, while I dont mind handing that over to the scout in the grp- will his chain be better then my plate in the long run, and when i cast forced aquiescence and all the mobs come beat on me will i crumple like a mage? getting interrupted so many times that i cant cast? Probably end game raiding, you could care less about the above, but it effects my play style tons. just wondering if anyone has heard anything about this. <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>graxnip wrote: we've discussed spell changes an all but - can we still take a hit? <hr></blockquote> This is important to me as well, as I tend to solo at least 50% of my time... if I cant take a beating while trying to get past those (soon to be more) interrupts, then it affects me a lot.. Conversely, with avoidance supposedly scaling with heaviness of armor, I think I might invest in a full outfit of very light or light armor to wear to play around with... and keep the heavy for when I am taking a beating soloing or in AOEs </span><div></div>

[[sp00k]]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> spOOk wrote:<BR> <P>WHY IS ARCH on the same timer as our other direct heals now.   I'm level 50 and STILL USE IT. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think you answered your own question... the intention of SOE has been very very clear ever since they starting talking about spell revamps... grey spells should NOT remain useful at later levels, because they should be UPGRADED.  Right now, pretty much nothing Pre-level 20 shares a timer with anything Post-level 20.. that's a pretty big rift that prolly was never meant to exist.  Spell lines should have smoothly transitioned through 20, just like they did through level 10, 30, 40, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I understand what you are saying and thats okay.  However the pre-20 spells should still remain on seperate timers.  Those spells are pretty much who you are.. Preist spells...Its like saying our level 10 group nox should not be usefull at level 50.  Or Prayer of Amelition(sp?) should not be able to be used...We are clerics and only get ONE group heal..Please that is just sad... Regarding smooth transitions Arch Heal at Master One does 600pts and Faithful Min does 672 ........................</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That sure is smooth.....Pre-20 spells should remain on the same timers they are now..If they wish to change the effect and power of the spells that is fine but don't change the timers..  I was upset when they did this the first time..However I was willing to adapt and let it go but with all these changes........I prolly will not stick around... Time will tell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Salastine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>[sp00k] wrote:</P> <P> I understand what you are saying and thats okay.  However the pre-20 spells should still remain on seperate timers.  Those spells are pretty much who you are.. Preist spells...Its like saying our level 10 group nox should not be usefull at level 50.  Or Prayer of Amelition(sp?) should not be able to be used...We are clerics and only get ONE group heal..Please that is just sad... Regarding smooth transitions Arch Heal at Master One does 600pts and Faithful Min does 672 .</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm not saying i wouldn't WANT pre-level 20 spells on different timers.. goodness knows i use them a lot now.  The problem (and the reason we still use grey spells) is that many of those old, T2 spells were never truly UPGRADED.  Prayer of Amelioration is a superior spell to our T5 group heal (don't even remember the name since i havn't cast it in months), which shouldn't have happened.  Arch healing is a very potent spell that often outperforms our T5 "quick heal", as you mentioned.  The scaling was the larger issue,  luckily the different timers helped us deal with it.    Now that they are (hopefully) fixing the scaling of spells (T5>T4>T3>T2>T1), the timers should be less of an issue (and probably more necessary for balancing.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 10 group noxious cure is a bad example, btw... all cures do not have upgrades and do scale in potency with levels... therefore it should indeed be useful at level 50, just like the single cures.  As for group heals, /shrug... looks like we're only going to have one, but it's actually going to be REALLY GOOD.  I'll take that over 2 or 3 crappy group heals anyday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keldoth:  I loved your sentiment. =)   I agree 100%, my Inquisitor is a bad-[Removed for Content] Mofo.  I can walk into about any zone with about any group makeup and heal through to the end (Icy Digs uber-group zone excluded) without breaking a sweat, laughing and chatting the whole time.  No way in hell would i EVER switch to a Templar, you couldn't force me to.  They can have their group cures, they only matter for 0.5% of my playtime (Darathar and Vox are the only raids i can think of where they're oh-so important...  though even those can be worked-around with timing.)  For the other 99.5%, I'l take my spell and ability lineup as a whole.</DIV>

[Satok]

<DIV>Actually I use group cure ALOT.  Every time that darn chest does group damage I cast group heal cause I'm just too lazy to do 5 singles and would rather not wait for everyone to naturally regain their health.  But as for combat, I rarely use group cure.  In fact, I feel if I use it, something has gone wrong and I'm getting desperate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[[sp00k]]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>[sp00k] wrote:</P> <P> I understand what you are saying and thats okay.  However the pre-20 spells should still remain on seperate timers.  Those spells are pretty much who you are.. Preist spells...Its like saying our level 10 group nox should not be usefull at level 50.  Or Prayer of Amelition(sp?) should not be able to be used...We are clerics and only get ONE group heal..Please that is just sad... Regarding smooth transitions Arch Heal at Master One does 600pts and Faithful Min does 672 .</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm not saying i wouldn't WANT pre-level 20 spells on different timers.. goodness knows i use them a lot now.  The problem (and the reason we still use grey spells) is that many of those old, T2 spells were never truly UPGRADED.  Prayer of Amelioration is a superior spell to our T5 group heal (don't even remember the name since i havn't cast it in months), which shouldn't have happened.  Arch healing is a very potent spell that often outperforms our T5 "quick heal", as you mentioned.  The scaling was the larger issue,  luckily the different timers helped us deal with it.    Now that they are (hopefully) fixing the scaling of spells (T5>T4>T3>T2>T1), the timers should be less of an issue (and probably more necessary for balancing.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 10 group noxious cure is a bad example, btw... all cures do not have upgrades and do scale in potency with levels... therefore it should indeed be useful at level 50, just like the single cures.  As for group heals, /shrug... looks like we're only going to have one, but it's actually going to be REALLY GOOD.  I'll take that over 2 or 3 crappy group heals anyday.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keldoth:  I loved your sentiment. =)   I agree 100%, my Inquisitor is a bad-[Removed for Content] Mofo.  I can walk into about any zone with about any group makeup and heal through to the end (Icy Digs uber-group zone excluded) without breaking a sweat, laughing and chatting the whole time.  No way in hell would i EVER switch to a Templar, you couldn't force me to.  They can have their group cures, they only matter for 0.5% of my playtime (Darathar and Vox are the only raids i can think of where they're oh-so important...  though even those can be worked-around with timing.)  For the other 99.5%, I'l take my spell and ability lineup as a whole.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>From what screenshots I've seen our Group noxious does not scale.  At level 50 it only dispells up to 16 levels of effects.  We LOOSE group noxious cure which is probably the most important group cure of them all.   I think this is BS.  We've gone almost a year without any group cures but this one.  Living through stuns, cold DoT's, etc.  Only to have the one group cure we have taken away for a single cast group cure for both elemental and arcane.  TO TOP IT OFF they replace our important ohh [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] spell with this group cure.   SO WHAT THE CRAP.  I HAVE A MASTER ONE GROUP CURE!!!!!!!!! 5pp down the drain....  COME ON...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After seeing a lot of the spells I think we will be happy with a lot of the changes but some of them are just plain stupid.  If tey wanted to take Flag, away thats fine but replace it with something that would have been worth upgrading and not a group cure.  No one would upgrade that too master one...  Like upgrading UnHoly Adept......Master pet 4tw.....<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ragefighter87]

<DIV>The group poison cure is a training choice and they just got around to them so that screenshot is probably outdated.  I hear the lvl 20 necro training pet stays at lvl 20 atm so these spells are not finished at this time.</DIV>