Group Reactive vs Single Target Reactive

[Poni]

<DIV>I'm a level 49 Inquisitor and have bee noticing a lot of inquisitor like to use the group reactive heal as opposed to the single target reactives. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I looked at the spells and it seems like the single target reactives are twice as mana efficient as the group reactive. Am I missing something here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean I'm sure group reactive is nice to cast before the pull, but in the middle of a controlled fight, its just a waste. That or there is something the spell does that I dont know about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Gendo</DIV>

[MiXx]

<DIV>You're right -the single target reactives are more mana efficent -they should be for you at least. As long as the group knows to stay out of harms way. At most you may need to throw one on a careless caster or the secondary tank that just doesn't know how to fight without taunting :smileywink: I would say the group reactive is great before an unsure pull -then single target the rest of the time. </DIV>

[LokiHellsson]

<DIV>I was in Edgewater with another Inquisitor in the group the other day, I was throwing BoV's on tank, she was throwing Soothing Sermon's on group.  Do they stack?  It was nice against the stuff doing AE's against us, because our casters would heal up a bit automatically.  Perhaps the other Inquisitor's Soothing Sermon was upgraded?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tigs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LokiHellsson wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was in Edgewater with another Inquisitor in the group the other day, I was throwing BoV's on tank, she was throwing Soothing Sermon's on group.  Do they stack?  It was nice against the stuff doing AE's against us, because our casters would heal up a bit automatically.  Perhaps the other Inquisitor's Soothing Sermon was upgraded?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Soothing sermon is a group reactive heal (RH), whereas BoV is a single target RH. These two spells do stack, and they stack in parallel, which means they will both go off at the same time (as opposed to serial RH stacking where one spell has to run its course before the other one will start to fire off its heals). It appears that single target and group RHs generally stack in parallel, whereas single target RHs will only stack serially with other single target RHs and group RHs will only stack serially with other group RHs.</P> <P>Tigsen</P>

[Decimat]

<blockquote><hr>Ponies wrote:<DIV>I'm a level 49 Inquisitor and have bee noticing a lot of inquisitor like to use the group reactive heal as opposed to the single target reactives. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I looked at the spells and it seems like the single target reactives are twice as mana efficient as the group reactive. Am I missing something here?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I mean I'm sure group reactive is nice to cast before the pull, but in the middle of a controlled fight, its just a waste. That or there is something the spell does that I dont know about.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>--Gendo</DIV><hr></blockquote>The single target isn't anywhere near twice as power efficient as the group. T5 ReactivesSingle: 4 ticks at 325 Adept 3, power cost 158Group: 8 ticks at 325 Adept 3, power cost 317There is absolutely no difference in power efficiency, unless your tank isn't chain pulling like he should be and your group reactive times out. Also, when you land a group reactive right before the mob is dead, you can stay out of combat for much of the next pull letting you regen quite a bit of power before you need to initiate by healing or fighting. This is of course a great aid to chain pulling XP groups.

[Za]

<DIV>Actually I prefer Group Reactives cuz they last more hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, a word of happiness... ALWAYS use group reactives before a pull. As long as your heal gets off before the pull, you can take as long as you need to recover the power back. If the reactive gets eaten up before you gain the power back, you got a big fight on your hands, and you just gave yourself a head start!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen healers wait till after the pull to cast reactives, and I'm like, WHY? </DIV>

[Poni]

<DIV>Oh sorry I thought group reactives were the same number of ticks. That would explain why it seemed like a total waste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the info. =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Gendo</DIV>

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually I prefer Group Reactives cuz they last more hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, a word of happiness... ALWAYS use group reactives before a pull. As long as your heal gets off before the pull, you can take as long as you need to recover the power back. If the reactive gets eaten up before you gain the power back, you got a big fight on your hands, and you just gave yourself a head start!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen healers wait till after the pull to cast reactives, and I'm like, WHY? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Because they think that they generate hate and don't want to use them until they need to.  When in fact the reality is that they generate hate for the person being healed rather than for the heal.  It's really sort of a bug, and Moorgard has already said that this is probably going to change soon.  He has said that Druid regens will probably generate a little less hate, and reactives and wards will probably generate some, albeit small, amount of hate towards the healer.</P> <P>Today Druid regen spells generate hate towards the Druid.  So, Druids tend to be a little more conservative in their healing.  I on the other hand love to preload reactives on tanks to help them with hate generation and to give me more time to debuff/DOT the encounter.</P> <P>Reactives, right now IMO, are really the pinnacle of healing skills.  And group reactives stacking with targeted reactives are an awesome way to heal vs. an encounter that should probably be over your head.</P>

[Ishya]

Qoute: I was in Edgewater with another Inquisitor in the group the other day, I was throwing BoV's on tank, she was throwing Soothing Sermon's on group. Do they stack? It was nice against the stuff doing AE's against us, because our casters would heal up a bit automatically. Perhaps the other Inquisitor's Soothing Sermon was upgraded?group reactives, single reacives and Radiance all stack. on a very tough mob i often have all 3 running, like when the tank goes down to 10% health, first radiance, then singletstinging penance) and group(contrite grace) last, and he will be Full health fast

[CyclopsSlayer]

<DIV>Don't forget that the Mark of Pawns, and I assume higher versions, also stack with reactives. Not a whole lot more but every bit can help.</DIV>

[Sebastien]

Group Reactives shouldn't be abused because of the fact that (as of now) they create additional mob hate/agro on the person they are healing. Therefore when a mage or scout in my group gets agro accidentally, I never cast a reactive on them unless it is the only way I can keep them alive. Throwing a reactive on a low-mitigation group member is basically putting a nail in their coffin.

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sebastien wrote:<BR>Group Reactives shouldn't be abused because of the fact that (as of now) they create additional mob hate/agro on the person they are healing. Therefore when a mage or scout in my group gets agro accidentally, I never cast a reactive on them unless it is the only way I can keep them alive. Throwing a reactive on a low-mitigation group member is basically putting a nail in their coffin.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> True, if a non-tank has aggro I will use a reactive as a last resort; when it is clear that if I do not put a reactive on them, they will die.

[Decimat]

If you have a decent tank, one taunt from him should do far more than any amount of reactive ticks will do in terms of hate.

[MacAll]

<DIV>I use both pre-combat and generate zero hate, then use the single unless things get hairy.  If it's an ugly fight and my single's not doing the job, then I drop the group too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, "walking the named" in PF, every fight consists of single reactive, group reactive, then wade in for melee.  I may drop 1 direct heal during the fight, but not often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind, this is group, not raid strategy.</DIV>

[LokiHellsson]

<DIV>I think I'm playing more effectively as a result of reading this board.  Thanks guys for informing me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's my routine from the last couple of days...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-battle prep (just before the battle starts):</DIV> <DIV>   Cast Soothing Sermon before the tank heads out to pull.</DIV> <DIV>   Cast BoV on the tank.</DIV> <DIV>   Assist tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Constant throughout encounter:</DIV> <DIV>   Watch for "sheen depleted" on the tank.  When sheen depletes, recast BoV.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   Fire off the occaisonal HO starter since they seem to be essentially free (do this when nobody's got an HO already working)</DIV>   Watch for HO's to try to lock-in moons or hammers.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   Walk behind monster and tap away at the monster with my puny little hammer.</DIV> <DIV>   When things go badly on the tank, panic a bit and start tossing off minor arch-healing, minor heal, arch heals.</DIV> <DIV>   When mobs AE on 3 or more of us, throw group heal.</DIV> <DIV>   When I draw aggro, resist urge to run, drag the monster over in the field of vision of the tank and hail the tank.  </DIV> <DIV>   Start healing self if they can't get the critter off me.</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV> <DIV>Near end of encounter:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   If all is going well and nobody needs healing, as the monster gets beat down into the red, toss off a Fulgent Strike or perhaps a one-man HO band with Admonishing Smite/Fulgent Strke to try to get the encounter over quicker so we can move on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we're toying with the monsters, I like to light them up with Cleansing Fire.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't figured out any debuff routine that makes me comfortable enough to use it routinely.  I figure this is the next thing to learn....which T1-T3 debuffs are worth the power and ought to be upgraded?  </DIV></DIV>

[CyclopsSlayer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LokiHellsson wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think I'm playing more effectively as a result of reading this board.  Thanks guys for informing me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's my routine from the last couple of days...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-battle prep (just before the battle starts):</DIV> <DIV>   Cast Soothing Sermon before the tank heads out to pull.</DIV> <DIV>   Cast BoV on the tank.</DIV> <DIV>   Assist tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Constant throughout encounter:</DIV> <DIV>   Watch for "sheen depleted" on the tank.  When sheen depletes, recast BoV.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   Fire off the occaisonal HO starter since they seem to be essentially free (do this when nobody's got an HO already working)</DIV>   Watch for HO's to try to lock-in moons or hammers.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   Walk behind monster and tap away at the monster with my puny little hammer.</DIV> <DIV>   When things go badly on the tank, panic a bit and start tossing off minor arch-healing, minor heal, arch heals.</DIV> <DIV>   When mobs AE on 3 or more of us, throw group heal.</DIV> <DIV>   When I draw aggro, resist urge to run, drag the monster over in the field of vision of the tank and hail the tank.  </DIV> <DIV>   Start healing self if they can't get the critter off me.</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV> <DIV>Near end of encounter:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   If all is going well and nobody needs healing, as the monster gets beat down into the red, toss off a Fulgent Strike or perhaps a one-man HO band with Admonishing Smite/Fulgent Strke to try to get the encounter over quicker so we can move on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we're toying with the monsters, I like to light them up with Cleansing Fire.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't figured out any debuff routine that makes me comfortable enough to use it routinely.  I figure this is the next thing to learn....which T1-T3 debuffs are worth the power and ought to be upgraded?  </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>One thing to note, your debuffs can greatly assist you in the amounts you have to heal. IF that is you get a chance to toss them in. The mob hitting less often and for less per swing, is less you have to heal.</P> <P>Heretics Demise line, these will not break mezzes by dint of not affecting mezzed mobs. But the damage can be considerable, and the training version has a nice Str/Agi debuffs.</P> <P>DoT's, stacking these will temporarily give you considerable DPS, and the Stifle effect is a MUST if you can get it in on caster nobs. All the DoT's are Hammers for starting and advancing HO's.</P> <P>HO's, priest HO chains are very weak compared to those started by other classes. So if you are in a good group firing HO's regularely,then keep you finger away from the starter button. If the group isn't using HO's, they should consider starting to use them, then use yours all you want. Smites are weak enough that they seldom bear using except as part of a HO or as a finisher. In solo combat I chain the Smite HO's back to back, it is tiring but fun to be able to drop L32 Orc's in Zek, or most any of the non-group EL mobs up to L34 as a L26 Inq.</P>

[kenji]

<DIV>priest HO isnt weak....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DD HO at 30+ mob can hit like 300.</DIV> <DIV>DD+Heal up hit ~150 but add 25% to instant heal...</DIV> <DIV>Power Regen HO....isnt that too nice to have for a priest? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[LokiHellsson]

Heretic's Demise? I'm level 25, I don't believe I've got a spell called Heretic's Demise. I'm trying to figure out Rebuke, Reproach, Iniquity, and Opression.Good point on the Priest-started HO's. I'll try to convince the others in my groups to start HO's as often as they can, then I'll try to help advance them/complete them.

[Decimat]

<blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<DIV>priest HO isnt weak....</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>DD HO at 30+ mob can hit like 300.</DIV><DIV>DD+Heal up hit ~150 but add 25% to instant heal...</DIV><DIV>Power Regen HO....isnt that too nice to have for a priest? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>Also, the Devs have seemingly put in code that causes Divine Judgement to do Uber damage on raid mobs. Normal mobs I usually hit 200-350 with Divine Judgement, but when I use it on raid mobs, I have seen as high as 700+. My highest magic hit is almost 900, but I wasn't aware I had it that high so I am not sure if Divine Judgement is what caused that. But 700 damage coming from a solo priest HO is quite nice, especially in those fights where healing is covered for the most part and the mob is immune to every weapon under the sun.<p>Message Edited by Decimatus on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 PM</span>

[Quae]

Quote: I'm trying to figure out Rebuke, Reproach, Iniquity, and Opression.Reproach is an upgrade to Rebuke. Reproach lowers AC as well as lowering heat and cold resistance. Iniquity is our upgrade to Weakness. It lowers strength and intelligence. Oppression is a damage over time spell which also reduces strength and stamina. I always try to use my DoT spells for the hammer part of an HO. You will get more damage from them in a fight than you will from Admonishing Smite. However, if I know that completing the HO will kill the mob then I will use Admonishing Smite instead of a DoT since I wouldn't be getting the full effect of the DoT.GromrotTroll InquisitorButcherblock

[CyclopsSlayer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>priest HO isnt weak....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DD HO at 30+ mob can hit like 300.</DIV> <DIV>DD+Heal up hit ~150 but add 25% to instant heal...</DIV> <DIV>Power Regen HO....isnt that too nice to have for a priest? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Sorry, but compared to the 3-4 part chains started off of say Warrior starters these are almost pitiably weak. I finished a Warrior started HO at L27 for 604 damage.</P> <P>Then there is the Warrior started Damage Shield and Verdant Trinity to name two we set up to trigger regularly.</P> <P>Now when I am soloing the Priest started HO's are sweet indeed and let me solo things WAY over my level. It is just in groups we should stand back and let others START the HO's, then we can advance and finish them for real HO power. But the HO's I start as a priest are 'selfish' ones, they help ME hit harder, ME get a heal, ME get a Wis boost, ME get a regen, while the ones others can start can help more than just myself, often to the benefit of the party as a whole.</P>

[LokiHellsson]

<DIV>So...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use Oppression vs. things that hit physically?  It seems reducing strength and stamina isn't so useful vs. casters.  Does the DoT have a chance to interrupt their casting?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does Reproach/Iniquity/Oppression make any sense as a combination against a single long-lasting target or am I better off saving the mana for healing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm looking forward to the stifle at later levels to use that vs. casters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do debuffs have a better chance of taking hold if I upgrade them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MacAll]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LokiHellsson wrote:<BR> <DIV>Use Oppression vs. things that hit physically?  It seems reducing strength and stamina isn't so useful vs. casters.  Does the DoT have a chance to interrupt their casting? <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It depends.  If there's no backup healer and you're on your own, debuff sparingly.  The amount of mana a debuff costs is not always justified in the amount it "saves" by allowing you to heal less.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR>  Does Reproach/Iniquity/Oppression make any sense as a combination against a single long-lasting target or am I better off saving the mana for healing?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The longer-lasting the fight, the more effective debuffs are.  If you reduce the dmg mit of a foe by 10%, in a 10 min fight that's 1 less minute your group is engaged and you're having to heal.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR>  I'm looking forward to the stifle at later levels to use that vs. casters. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>We also get a KILLER mana DoT and magic/divine debuff (in the same spell) that I drop on casting mobs first thing...drains thier mana and every caster in the group is more likely to land spells.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR>  Do debuffs have a better chance of taking hold if I upgrade them?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Absolutely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Additionally...</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV> <HR>  Constant throughout encounter:</DIV> <DIV>  Watch for "sheen depleted" on the tank.  When sheen depletes, recast BoV.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Turn on your active spells window and that shows you every spell you have up and active.  So, instead of staring at fast-moving spam, you see icons for every spell you have up and see the icon fall.  MUCH easier to manage your heals that way.</DIV>

[Sebastien]

<blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<DIV>priest HO isnt weak....</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>DD HO at 30+ mob can hit like 300.</DIV><DIV>DD+Heal up hit ~150 but add 25% to instant heal...</DIV><DIV>Power Regen HO....isnt that too nice to have for a priest? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>Priest-started HO's are fine for soloing, but they are pitiful in a group setting. Still, what difference does it make who starts the HO? =P

[Spid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>Turn on your active spells window and that shows you every spell you have up and active.  So, instead of staring at fast-moving spam, you see icons for every spell you have up and see the icon fall.  MUCH easier to manage your heals that way.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I almost hate to give away a trade secret, but check out the tool at CombatStats.com. The absolute must have feature is that it will let you set up an audio file to play when it detects text in the EQ2 logfile. I have mine set to look for "healthy sheen has depleted" (and 'as depleted', since there's a typo there) and play a quick buzzer when it sees it. Then I can look at things on the screen other than my active spells icons. I have it tell me when anything from the SS or BoV line expires, as well as when I fizzle or am interrupted. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But then again, maybe I just like these because my monitor's too big...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Naja </DIV> <DIV>27th Inquisitor on Crushbone</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sebastien]

Wow that's very sophisticated!

[Kezra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Decimatus wrote:<BR><BR>The single target isn't anywhere near twice as power efficient as the group. <BR><BR>T5 Reactives<BR>Single: 4 ticks at 325 Adept 3, power cost 158<BR>Group: 8 ticks at 325 Adept 3, power cost 317<BR><BR>There is absolutely no difference in power efficiency, unless your tank isn't chain pulling like he should be and your group reactive times out. <BR><BR>Also, when you land a group reactive right before the mob is dead, you can stay out of combat for much of the next pull letting you regen quite a bit of power before you need to initiate by healing or fighting. This is of course a great aid to chain pulling XP groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This pretty much sums it all up.  The only thing is, if you want to get technical, you forgot the vitae's on termination.  Stinging penance is a total of 5 heals for a total of 1727 (325 x 4 + 427).  Saluatary Diatribe results in 3027 (325 x 8 + 427).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1727 hps / 158.0 power  = 10.930 hps/ point of power</DIV> <DIV>3027 / 317.0 = 9.549 hps/point of power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clearly stinging penance is superior to the group reactive, and clearly I'm extremely bored.</DIV>

[Decimat]

Ok, I guess that is true. When I xp'ed it was just easier to make sure that the group vitae was always running, and cast single vitae when the need arose, rather than recasting the single over and over. Gives more time for debuffs and stuff.

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kezrael wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Decimatus wrote:<BR><BR>The single target isn't anywhere near twice as power efficient as the group. <BR><BR>T5 Reactives<BR>Single: 4 ticks at 325 Adept 3, power cost 158<BR>Group: 8 ticks at 325 Adept 3, power cost 317<BR><BR>There is absolutely no difference in power efficiency, unless your tank isn't chain pulling like he should be and your group reactive times out. <BR><BR>Also, when you land a group reactive right before the mob is dead, you can stay out of combat for much of the next pull letting you regen quite a bit of power before you need to initiate by healing or fighting. This is of course a great aid to chain pulling XP groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This pretty much sums it all up.  The only thing is, if you want to get technical, you forgot the vitae's on termination.  Stinging penance is a total of 5 heals for a total of 1727 (325 x 4 + 427).  Saluatary Diatribe results in 3027 (325 x 8 + 427).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1727 hps / 158.0 power  = 10.930 hps/ point of power</DIV> <DIV>3027 / 317.0 = 9.549 hps/point of power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clearly stinging penance is superior to the group reactive, and clearly I'm extremely bored.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>1. It's not <STRONG>that</STRONG> superior.</P> <P>2. It's still better to cast the group spell when you have the time... so that <STRONG>if</STRONG> you need to stack reactives, you can. It's much easier to stack Stinging Penace on top of Salutary Diatribe, vs, if you need to cast SD while your SP gets eaten up. Keeping the long cast time power up, esp when its not costing you that much efficiency is better is many cases.</P> <P>I'd rather be safe than 1hp/power more efficient.</P><p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>02-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:26 PM</span>

[Ishya]

Qoute:2. It's still better to cast the group spell when you have the time... so that if you need to stack reactives, you can. It's much easier to stack Stinging Penace on top of Salutary Diatribe, vs, if you need to cast SD while your SP gets eaten up. Keeping the long cast time power up, esp when its not costing you that much efficiency is better is many cases.I disagreeStinging penance has a much faster cast time, if things get bad and you need to stack reactives, you always have radiance too, (no power, no cast time). in a normal situation stinging is far more superior because you have time to debuff/dot the mob too , which results in less atk for the mob and thus more efficientyes radiance has a 6 min timer, but if you are in a group when things go very hectic and you really need to use it every minute, i suggest fighting somewhat less tougher mobs :pwhen you keep the group reactive up you dont have that much time to debuffat lvl 43 radiance heals for about 200, stinging 220. I noticed not many inquisitors use radiance which is a great spell imo no power/no time

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>I disagree<BR><BR>Stinging penance has a much faster cast time, if things get bad and you need to stack reactives, you always have radiance too, (no power, no cast time). in a normal situation stinging is far more superior because you have time to debuff/dot the mob too , which results in less atk for the mob and thus more efficient<BR><BR>yes radiance has a 6 min timer, but if you are in a group when things go very hectic and you really need to use it every minute, i suggest fighting somewhat less tougher mobs :p<BR><BR>when you keep the group reactive up you dont have that much time to debuff<BR><BR>at lvl 43 radiance heals for about 200, stinging 220. I noticed not many inquisitors use radiance which is a great spell imo no power/no time<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Well we can agree to disagree... I have no problem keeping diatribe up pre fight, then debuffing throughout the fight... in fact with diatribe at the begining or prefight, I can debuff on pull or very close after without worrying about the heal getting eaten early. Yeah I use radiance as well, but I save it for when its really needed... I could probably use it more, but I find that when I really need it, I'm happy that I didn't use it frivilously. I concider Radiance kind of like Paladin Lay of Hands... yeah its great to use, and can be used any time, but I'd rather never use it, and have it when it was really needed, than get in the habit of never having it available.</P> <P>Yes Stinging is a much faster cast time... which is why I don't use it to open combat, when I don't need that speed. I open with the longer lasting slow one, then if I need to ramp up the heals on a regular basis... drop stinging.. bam tank pops to 100% while I'm debuffing or accessing the situation... </P> <P>Really, you should try it.. Stinging by itself is good, but laying diatribe under it is just better.</P> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Decimat]

<blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P><HR></P><P>I disagree<BR><BR>Stinging penance has a much faster cast time, if things get bad and you need to stack reactives, you always have radiance too, (no power, no cast time). in a normal situation stinging is far more superior because you have time to debuff/dot the mob too , which results in less atk for the mob and thus more efficient<BR><BR>yes radiance has a 6 min timer, but if you are in a group when things go very hectic and you really need to use it every minute, i suggest fighting somewhat less tougher mobs :p<BR><BR>when you keep the group reactive up you dont have that much time to debuff<BR><BR>at lvl 43 radiance heals for about 200, stinging 220. I noticed not many inquisitors use radiance which is a great spell imo no power/no time<BR></P><P><HR></P><P>Well we can agree to disagree... I have no problem keeping diatribe up pre fight, then debuffing throughout the fight... in fact with diatribe at the begining or prefight, I can debuff on pull or very close after without worrying about the heal getting eaten early. Yeah I use radiance as well, but I save it for when its really needed... I could probably use it more, but I find that when I really need it, I'm happy that I didn't use it frivilously. I concider Radiance kind of like Paladin Lay of Hands... yeah its great to use, and can be used any time, but I'd rather never use it, and have it when it was really needed, than get in the habit of never having it available.</P><P>Yes Stinging is a much faster cast time... which is why I don't use it to open combat, when I don't need that speed. I open with the longer lasting slow one, then if I need to ramp up the heals on a regular basis... drop stinging.. bam tank pops to 100% while I'm debuffing or accessing the situation... </P><P>Really, you should try it.. Stinging by itself is good, but laying diatribe under it is just better.</P><P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><hr></blockquote>Basically yes. Ishya, your logic is flawed in that you seem to think you save time by exclusively using Stinging Penance rather than Salutory Diatribe. If you test it out, you will find that in any normal xp situation, you can cast your group reactive before the pull(or at the end of the previous fight) and you won't even have to heal for an entire fight until you lay down the next group reactive(before pull, or near the end of a fight). Rather than casting stinging penance DURING the fight, you cast Diatribe BEFORE the fight, and every second the tank is in contact with the mob, you have the opportunity to debuff and spot heal as needed. BTW, Radiance is a 900 second recast, making it 15 minutes not 6 minutes. It isn't very efficent for xp'ing. I only use it when there is a couple(one add is easy to handle in most normal xp situations 45+, because of course you already have your group vitae on, so there is plenty of time to compensate by more vitaes) adds or I was slacking and the tank needs some quick patching up.

[Ishya]

Qoute: Ishya, your logic is flawed in that you seem to think you save time by exclusively using Stinging Penance rather than Salutory Diatribe. If you test it out, you will find that in any normal xp situation, you can cast your group reactive before the pull(or at the end of the previous fight) and you won't even have to heal for an entire fight until you lay down the next group reactive(before pull, or near the end of a fight). Rather than casting stinging penance DURING the fight, you cast Diatribe BEFORE the fight, and every second the tank is in contact with the mob, you have the opportunity to debuff and spot heal as needed.I didnt say i only cast stinging during fight, i cast it prefight, and about halfway fight i cast it again when it wears off. when i tried with diatribe and diatribe wore off during fight i noticed the tank loses alot health when casting it, so when that happened i had to throw 1-2 patch heals on him to recover that. with stinging i am fast enough to keep it almost non stop up and no need for extra heal patches. and yes i was stiffling mobs in both situation to keep the damage peaks outanother point why i dont use diatribe is, when the tank loses aggro (like when casters buffed during pull..) the diatribe on the casters will cause more aggro for them and they dont have to avoidance so they will get hit more tooi like to compare it too to EQ1 Complete Heal and patch heals <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, at the end game complete heal was almost never used (except during raids) just because of the cast time altho everyone will agree CH is far more mana/heal efficient then any other heal (yes EQ1 is a complete other game, but the logic is the same i think)... or maybe im just to rusty from playing my eq1 cleric heh. I like to have time to react fast, most deaths happen because clerics dont react fast enough or are stuck castingedit: sjeez really have to one star me because i disagree?<p>Message Edited by Ishya on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span>

[Decimat]

<blockquote><hr>Ishya wrote:Qoute: Ishya, your logic is flawed in that you seem to think you save time by exclusively using Stinging Penance rather than Salutory Diatribe. If you test it out, you will find that in any normal xp situation, you can cast your group reactive before the pull(or at the end of the previous fight) and you won't even have to heal for an entire fight until you lay down the next group reactive(before pull, or near the end of a fight). Rather than casting stinging penance DURING the fight, you cast Diatribe BEFORE the fight, and every second the tank is in contact with the mob, you have the opportunity to debuff and spot heal as needed.I didnt say i only cast stinging during fight, i cast it prefight, and about halfway fight i cast it again when it wears off. when i tried with diatribe and diatribe wore off during fight i noticed the tank loses alot health when casting it, so when that happened i had to throw 1-2 patch heals on him to recover that. with stinging i am fast enough to keep it almost non stop up and no need for extra heal patches. and yes i was stiffling mobs in both situation to keep the damage peaks outanother point why i dont use diatribe is, when the tank loses aggro (like when casters buffed during pull..) the diatribe on the casters will cause more aggro for them and they dont have to avoidance so they will get hit more tooi like to compare it too to EQ1 Complete Heal and patch heals <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, at the end game complete heal was almost never used (except during raids) just because of the cast time altho everyone will agree CH is far more mana/heal efficient then any other heal (yes EQ1 is a complete other game, but the logic is the same i think)... or maybe im just to rusty from playing my eq1 cleric heh. I like to have time to react fast, most deaths happen because clerics dont react fast enough or are stuck casting<hr></blockquote>You can also use Diatribe to regen as much as 20-50% your bar of power before engaging combat. Cast it before the pull, and you can get your power up during the fight, so the chain pulling can continue. I am not sure what you have been fighting, or in which groups, but Diatribe can easily outlast the mob you are fighting, especially 45+ where most of the mobs you fight are yellow con with a few orange con here and there. As for the agg factor given by a vitae ticking off on the mage who was going nuke happy, it is negligable. If the tank knows where his taunt key is, he will have no problem getting agg back. If the tank can't get agg back, it has little to do with the small amount of hate generated by the vitae, and more to do with the mage that went nuts on the mob.

[Ishya]

hmm most fights with a 43-45 group in CT, where i tested stinging vs diatribe (mobs are yellow-orange) we cant beat a mob under 45 (about 35 when casted pre-pull) sec with a normal group (no i dont have tank, healer and 4 wizzy's :p ) most fight last 1-1.5 minute so i had to recast diatribe anyway :<p>Message Edited by Ishya on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:36 PM</span>

[Za]

<DIV>It really is a matter of style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think either method is <EM>better</EM>. My style is to lay down group, so that I don't have to worry about the initial flurry putting me on a position that I need to chain cast Stinging... But chain casting Stinging is just as effective in most cases.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as agro control goes, I find that if a caster gets agro hard enough that they get directly turned on... vs getting hit by an AE attack... the caster is going to hold agro for at least a few hits with or without the added agro of the reactive... I don't usually put stinging on casters, but if Diatribe is up, I can target heal then while the reactive buffers me. In all honesty, look at the numbers. My direct 650 heal is still going to pull more agro than the 200ish from diatribe, so if healing agro was a factor... I'd still win. And in most cases, it's prefereable that a cleric have agro over a wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you can not under appreciate the fact that casting diatribe precombat allows you to affectivly have a mana free heal for as long as diatribe is active... I've gone 1/2 a fight full power while my group takes damage and self heals itself... My general opening for potentially tough fights is...Diatribe, Stinging, The melee proc spell.... then let tank pull. I'll go from 75% power to full in a matter of moments, while the group is fighting. Then if needed the group has a full and ready to go cleric completely untapped vs a cleric that has already spent 20-30% power on the initial pull healing.</DIV>

[Coroni]

<DIV>Besides the fact that they stack (so cast both), besides the fact that you can cast before a pull and regain power before the fight... group reactives are great because they are like a safety net.  Even the best players are going occasionally mis-target and get agro.  The group reactive buys me time.  Then again, there are those wild fights where you have to cast a group heal and you're not quite sure who's got agro.  Again, a group reactive is a good thing to cast.</DIV>