Raid Healers

[Isri]

<DIV>Anyone in high level guilds raiding top content?  How do you keep a MT alive?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do mobs spam hit so hard that our reactives work great?  Should guilds use SHM / DRU healers for direct heals against high damage mobs?</DIV>

[Azam]

I'm not in a hight lvl raiding guild BUT the key is that it takes multiple healers and preferably multiple classes of healers to keep a MT alive through the punishment a raid mob can deal out. In fact I have seen people have a group of 4 healers + MT + another class for whatever utility spells they think they need.

[Decimat]

<DIV>Basically, anything that is a "raid" is group x2-4.  There are a few x2 mobs that are pretty easy, and can be taken with one group and 1-2 healers.  However, most raid mobs require much more than this, and some are more challenging than others.  Have fought many x2 mobs that were as tough or tougher than a lot of the x4 mobs.  You will never be the only healer at a raid, at least not at a successful raid.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Depending on healer availability at the time of the raid, you will ideally have 2-4 healers on an x2, and 4-8 healers on an x4.  x3 mobs are few and far between, so I won't go into those.  Basically, your job as an Inquisitor, given no other Inquisitors at the raid, would be to keep a single vitae(and group vitae if you are in the MT's group) on the MT, and direct heal when needed.  Debuff once the tank is at a stable HP level, and you are confident that you have the power to heal when needed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, it is a good idea to have all classes of healers represented at a raid.  The MT should have vitaes and regens ticking off, as well as wards being applied especially when the raid mob has a power pool and is throwing down the hurt.  Given that most all instant heals are power inefficient, having several people with stackable class heals at the raid is a good idea.  </DIV>

[bonecl]

I have been curious about raids and how healing works. Can I heal targets outside my group in a raid format? I tried a simple raid just to test it out but I couldn't seem to get it to work. Of course, this was during the release and perhaps raids are working differently now.Kind regards,Boneclub

[Decimat]

<DIV>You can't apply group vitae's, group heals, death heals, or single target HP buffs outside your group in the raid.  Otherwise, you can direct heal, vitae, etc whoever, you just have to manually select their name in the raid window.  Or maybe you can go into options and assign hotkeys for 18 raid slots, but I haven't bothered with that.  </DIV>

[Ayako]

<P> <HR> </P> <P>In fact I have seen people have a group of 4 healers + MT + another class for whatever utility spells they think they need.</P> <P> <HR> </P> <P>I think they've fixed the initial problems with raids and having to be grouped to cast non-instant heals.  I was able to cast FoR between groups, and I think battle ressurection works cross-group now too in raid instances.</P>

[Isri]

<DIV>Another big part of my question is mob DPS.  I've seen mobs who are groupx2 that wild swing for 2500hp and normal hit for 500.  That tells me you're going to need druid / shaman direct healing much like a cleric CH in EQ1.  Is that how it is, or is it really worth it to pull an inquisitor off debuffs to do vitaes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It kinda reminds me of healing a monk against a high dps mob.  Its mostly burst damage, and we're not designed for that.  I'm just wondering if it holds true for things like vox and other level 51+ named raid mobs.</DIV>

[Decimat]

<DIV>That reminds me.  Resurection does not work on anyone outside your group, which is a big one.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise, when it comes to raids, Debuffs are the last thing you will do.  First, every one of the healers must make sure the tank is being maintained.  So, all out heals until adds are taken, and the situation is under control.  Then debuff and vitae as needed.  I would always stack the single vitaes cause you never know when one will go out, so it is good to have double coverage from templar/inquisitor.  </DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>I do almost nothing but raids these days, so here's my experiences...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group 1 contains the MT and MA, the chanter, and 2 healers of different types, preferably an Inq/Temp and a shaman/druid.  Everyone else is optional, though berserkers and other agro-stealers should likely be considered for this group.</DIV> <DIV>The other groups contain other folks, whose job is to NOT draw agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The healers in group 1 focus on stacking reactives and keeping wards/other buffs on the MT/MA.</DIV> <DIV>The healers in the other group focus on:</DIV> <DIV>1. Direct heals to the MT/MA ad hoc</DIV> <DIV>2. Keeping folks in their own group alive</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for which healers are in which group, the ones with the biggest/highest quality reactives are in group 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why an MT and MA?  In the raids I've been on, there's frequently the big named mob, then a host of littler mobs around them, frequently also groupx#, just like the big named.  The MT's job is to pull the named, the MA's job is to pull off the little ones and let the groups focus on killing them quick while the MT holds the big named agro and stays alive.  This allows the raid to eliminate the smaller mobs, reduce the damage done during the amazingly long time it takes to kill one of the larger named, and also eliminates the problems created with uncontrolled agro.  Everyone is assisting the MA so they cycle target to target through the little guys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying it's the best way, but it's the way it's done with the people I run with and it works every time.</DIV><p>Message Edited by MacAllen on <span class=date_text>02-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 AM</span>

[BlueQui]

Andrikus has it right. I too also lead a ton of raids against ^^X2, X3, and X4. Two-four healers is NOT enough.We usually group the highest level Cleric, Druid, and Shaman in group with MT and MA, add a chanter for 6th spot.The cleric, druid, & shaman follow the MT to the pull, all announce that they are going to buff/ward, 20 sec later, the MT pulls to the group. The MT's job is to keep agro. The MA's job is to pick next target. The way raid wipes go for us is this: MT pulls 5 ^^^ baddies to group. Someone throws an AoE attack, draws agro from the non-main target baddie. Then a healer tries to heal him, keeps the guy who pulled agro from MT alive for an extra 4 seconds. Then the Healer gets agro from trying to heal the guy who stole agro after he dies. Then another healer tries to heal the healer that healed the guy who stole agro. Next have 2-3 healers down, and raid wipes.Some tips: -Give MT 10-20 sec to establish agro on ONE target-Then everyone attack ONE target. NO AREA ATTACKS (includes Forced Submission btw)-Your heals may steal agro so trust that the wards/reactives/HoT will keep MT alive without heals for the first 5-15 seconds. Don't cast any heals after battle start until you have to-Highest level healers are in charge of keeping wards/reactives/HoT, other healers direct heal and debuff-Have other fighters intervine for a hit or 3 if they can. Other fighters, use wards, blocks, etc to keep MT alive.This one is contriversial: If it is a VERY hard MOB, and someone steals agro, LET THAT PERSON DIE if MT can't get agro back in time.Healers healing the guy who stole agro will get agro themselves. This steam rolls into a raid wipe.Just stay on MT. The MOB will go back to MT after it's done killing who ever stole agro.Then simply combat rez the agro stealer 30 sec later, and all is good.

[Tigs]

<DIV>Just a quick question... I know MT = main tank, but what does MA stand for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Tigsen</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>MA = Main Assist.  The MT holds agro, the MA picks the target, and everyone is assisting him.  The MT is spaming AoE taunts and attacks like barrage to keep agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allow me to be even more controversial...if someone but MA/MT gets agro, they get to die quickly and messily, with ZERO heals.  Why am I so cruel?  Let me paint this out for you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some dps/zerk gets agro.  They are not fully buffed, they don't have the main healers focusing on them, and they don't have the AC to hold it.  Any healer that heals them instantly transfers agro to themselves when that person dies, so now we're down the original problem + a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some dps/zerk gets agro.  The healers ignore him, he folds like a lawnchair, and agro returns to the MT/MA.  One of the healer slips over and combat-res's him, he gets up out of combat, burns a drink and food, the healers drop 1-2 heals on him, he regens his mana at non-combat rates and is back in the fight quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raids are not like normal groups for a lot of reasons:</DIV> <DIV>1. You are not there for exps, you are there for the loot and thrill</DIV> <DIV>2. Debt means nothing, and if you are debt-conscious you should NEVER go on a raid.  One of the guilds on our server went after the CT dragon, it took them 5 complete wipes before they finally got it dead, and this was considered a huge success.</DIV> <DIV>3. Death is a great way to lose agro and get non-combat regeneration to get back into the fray with full mana, and in fact when I've hit zero mana I've stepped into the barrage, gotten killed intentionally, gotten the combat res and taken the non-combat regen to hit full power quickly to jump back in for heals</DIV> <DIV>4. Some of these fights can take 15-30 min to kill the mob, so the focus is on longevity, not short-term</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I repeat, Raids are completely different ways to play.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>I want to add a little more...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You accidentally get barraged, move the heck out of the way.  You die to barrage you will be flagged as stupid and I will speak against you if you are suggested for a raid.  If you're intentionally dying to the barrage, make sure to get clear of it as you die, or you'll die to it again when you get up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not run around, ever.  You get agro, freeze in place until you stop being hit.  You are in a group of 24 people, many of which are looking at the floor or walls to reduce lag and should not have to move.  You running around can seriously reduce the group's ability to deal with the target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Watch where you are.  You step back and draw roamer agro, step forward to where you were and die politely.  You drag it into the group and I MAY rez you...regardless, you're on my "idiot" list.  You panic and run around to make sure the roamer agros everyone, and I'll take the time to Odyssey you far away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Follow directions, do what you are told, do not do what you are not told to do.  The raid leader has that position for a reason, and the difference between a complete wipe and a success can very easily be 1 person not following directions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make sure you hand out rez stones, just as a matter of course.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics don't nuke/dot/debuff until called for.  Comparatively, our dps is pathetic, so save our mana because you never know when the mob will suddenly pull out some massive aoe and the entire raid needs healing quickly.</DIV>

[letog2]

<DIV>if you need help playing your cleric when you are 45+..... go start something else noob</DIV>

[Tigs]

<DIV>MacAllen,</DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the info, that is exactly the kind of thing I like reading these forums for. I am not, however, familiar with what a "barrage" is. It sounds like some sort of short range AoE attack that raid bosses do? Any explanation will be apreciated some day in the future when I go on my first raid. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tigsen</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>Barrage is an AoE cone attack done by many mobs.  I started seeing it consistently after about 24th lvl, a cone ranging from 45 to 150 degrees off the nose of the mob, where dmg is done to everyone standing there.  If you see you're taking dmg and it says it's from Barrage, likely you don't have agro, you're just standing in the wrong spot.</DIV>

[Cenanorn]

<DIV>This was one of the most useful threads i have read here. Thanks</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>Thank you.  More thoughts from recent raids, some successful, some not so much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In "normal" play, reactives are the king, and it's possible to never have to use a direct, with the right combination of reactives, regens, and wards.  I pride myself on never having to use the mana-inefficient direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of that goes away in a raid.  Last night, we had 5 clerics in this groupx3 raid, 4 of which were 100% focused on keeping a 50th guardian with >10k AC (all pristine ebon) alive during the fight and he STILL went down like my tech stock options.  Over the tank's head was a non-stop barrage of 3 and 4 digit damage numbers that gave testament to his damage mitigation abilities and the green numbers were just not keeping up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When being a healer in a raid, there are a number of things that we have to rethink to be able to perform our duties:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Stack your reactives in the beginning, then pretty much forget burning the time on them because no reactive can compete with the damage coming in and the time spent casting it.  Obviously there will be exceptions, but in most of the raids I've been in we decided the reactives just weren't time-effective.  Besides, most of the healers will be in other groups than the MT/MA and reactives are only group-wide, not raid-wide (boy, wouldn't THAT be nice?)</DIV> <DIV>2. Arrange your spell buttons by what is linked to what and be able to chain cast heals without having to wait for a button to come up.  Every heal is valuable at this point.  Last night I was using my Master I Combat Heals between the larger heals because, for some reason, they don't seem to be linked to the spells with the same icons.  It seems pathetic, but it's quick, my big heals were cycling, and it's a few 100 hp the tank didn't have until I cast it.</DIV> <DIV>3. Just because the tank's bar is green does NOT mean he's undamaged.  Especially in the beginning of the fight, chain-cast your heals on the tank, even when he appears to be full health, at least until you can ascertain the amount of damage he'll be taking from the fight.  This seems a bit extreme, and in many raids it will be a bit much, but better to over-heal him in the beginning and then slack off then and watch him drop from green to dead in the time it takes you to see it and begin casting.</DIV> <DIV>4. Ignore the group and raid windows, they lie to you.  I have seen a caster drop dead before my eyes while his bar in the group window showed green, then 2 sec later it went orange/red/dead.  You have to target to heal, so look at your targetted window only to determine how damaged someone is, it's the quickest to respond to changes.</DIV> <DIV>5. I know this sounds stupidly obvious, but keep your spells upgraded as high as possible.  App IV heals are just not going to cut it in "the show", and it seems Sony has the encounters geared to assume that folks are equipped very well, and that assumes the healing abilities of the healers.  Get your adepts, buy/find your rares and keep your heals upgraded.  Over armor, over weapons, over anything else, your heals are why you are there.  Trust me, that ebon armor piece might look nice, but you don't have the mitigation to handle the shots these mobs will be dishing out and if you get agro it's too late anyway, so you might as well be wearing a Robe of the Invoker (I love mine, wear it every raid) then burning cash on armor.  Again, this is not how a solo or group-oriented cleric needs to think, but as I mentioned above, Raids are different things entirely.</DIV> <DIV>6. Stay the heck out of the way!  In the old days, all we had to worry about was Barrage.  Raid mobs cast VICIOUS things like 1500hp Dot's that are group-wide if you're close enough to catch it, and that sort of thing drops most clerics in 3 ticks, far faster than you can cast the multiple cures it takes to remove it.  Find your maximum range to cast your heals and stay it it, periodically moving outside of it when you're not casting, and avoid being in front of the mob.  This is also why most of the raid's healers will not be in the MT/MA group because that group gets the most agro and is most likely to get such DoT's.  You have to have at least one cleric there, however, to cast the combat res's should someone drop, because res is group only (which sucks).</DIV> <DIV>7. I said this earlier, but I'll repeat it...feather EVERYONE with rez stones.  Nothing more annoying than the raid having to end because all healers are dead and no one has a stone.</DIV>

[Ender]

Some barrages are 360. Healers getting killed yet they're still behind the monster.

[MacAll]

<DIV>My theory on that is that the assassin/zerker behind the mob drew agro for a second, enough for the mob to turn, hit, and turn back.  I'm not positive on this, but the guys in front aren't hit by this barrage, just the guys behind.</DIV>

[harlock_j]

>I started seeing it consistently after about 24th lvl, a cone ranging from 45 to 150 degrees off the nose of the mob, where dmg is done to everyone standing there. If you see you're taking dmg and it says it's from Barrage, likely you don't have agro, you're just standing in the wrong spot.I wish more pullers would learn that they should pull PAST the camp instead of stopping dead in front of us so we get hit by a Barrage first thing and have to scramble behind the mob <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[MacAll]

<DIV>Most of the "better" tanks pull the mob then turn it.  You don't want to have it pulled through the camp or it will barrage everyone, but a pull to the camp and then turn and leap over the mob to turn it around is optimal, at least as far as I've seen.</DIV>

[BlueQui]

I'm only leading the level 35-40ish raids against ^^^Mobs. But, there is one other thing that can help (a little) with keeping the MT alive for that first few minutes when damage is raining down harder than any 6 healers can keep up with. 1) Have other fighters help the tank. SK's can use wards. Zerkers can intervine and pull some damage. Other fighters can "throw" blocks. I expect the people playing the other fighters in the group to know their abilities and use them to help us get through that first few minutes of combat. You will probably notice their health bars going down. Do not switch to help them; they are doing their jobs and know to not take enough damage to kill themselves.If anyone knows a tank, or plays one, please list some of the abilities that can be used to help keep the MT alive. Same thing with other classes. Even 5% less damage will help a ton.Also, poison, arcane, elemental, and all other damage should be healed asafp. Many of these are debuffs and/or wicked DoTs cast on the MT and others in group. And like Andrikus said, 3 ticks, and group members start dropping. We usually give poison heals to Lixi (a guildie), she has the area poison cure ability (Which very few Inquisitors seemed to have chosen). I do the elemental cures, and on down the line with every type of damage DoT assigned to a healer. Keep the reactives/HoT/Healing wards up at all times, but find 3 sec to cast that DoT cure.

[MacAll]

<DIV>The problem with that last bit is our inability to see those icons if we're not grouped with him.  That's a seriously frustrating point for me, I can't see the poison/arcane/etc stuff on the MT/MA if I'm not in that group.</DIV>

[Isri]

<DIV>Thank you, my main concern is how to deal with raid mobs who barrage 5000+ damage on a tank.  This means that SHM and DRU are going to be the best healers with their direct heals.</DIV>

[Ravenmi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Isriam wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thank you, my main concern is how to deal with raid mobs who barrage 5000+ damage on a tank.  This means that SHM and DRU are going to be the best healers with their direct heals.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>   Whoa there.. Shaman direct heals are the worst of all.  Clerics and druids have the better direct heals out of the group.  Druids having the best if you count in the regen component.<p>Message Edited by Ravenmist on <span class=date_text>02-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:18 PM</span>

[Decimat]

I raid quite a bit, and I can basically tell you that Clerics are the best healers, with shamans coming in a close second since they can take the brunt off a large hit, and druids are good to have when all the stacked reactives and wards are not quite holding the tank, and regen has a chance to be useful. Also, regen is quite useful for people who are taking stray hits, using manastone, etc.

[Isri]

<DIV>I was under the impression that dru/shm both had 1500+ direct heals?  My largest at 44 is 600.</DIV>

[Decimat]

No one direct heals for 1500. My Adept3 Arch heal does 955. Shaman and druid are similar in heal, about 860 adept 1 shaman arch heal, and druid I don't have the exact number for. The only thing that might make the druid heal more than 1k would be adding the regen.

[Ravenmi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Decimatus wrote:<BR>I raid quite a bit, and I can basically tell you that Clerics are the best healers, with shamans coming in a close second since they can take the brunt off a large hit, and druids are good to have when all the stacked reactives and wards are not quite holding the tank, and regen has a chance to be useful. Also, regen is quite useful for people who are taking stray hits, using manastone, etc.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>  Shamans better then druids?  Wards are next to useless on a mitigation tank, dropping in two or three hits against a tough mob.  Wards don't factor in AC making every hit a big one against the Ward.  The only way a Shaman would make a better healer on a Raid is if the tank was an avoidance one... like a Monk or Bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Reactives and Regens work together very nicely agaist a tough mob..  both of them ticking off keeping up with the brunt of the damage.  Wardens have the best Direct heals as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Depends on your tank I guess.</DIV>

[Decimat]

Well, if you have ever fought a mob that hits for 6-10k you might be able to better appreciate the wards. Druids are not the greatest for speed healing. More suited to attrition damage, and long fights. Either way, if you are doing a "Raid"... meaning 12-24 people, then chances are you will have ample room to fit one of each type of healer, which is the best way to go. You aren't going to enter a raid situation and choose to leave out a class of healer if you have it available. If it comes down to a choice between shaman or druid, you either have too many clerics, or more DPS which than you need.