Bestowal of Vitae

[Bigstup]

I got on last night and dinged level 12. Yay! Experience for finding a bridge of all things made me ding. New spell granted of Bestowal of Vitae. A healing damage shield from the looks of it. Immediately following that I picked up a group killing Dregs in the Commonlands. They invited me from across zone and so as I was running to the party while in group the puller grabbed mobs thinking I was there to heal. I got to share in some exp debt before I even got there and watch the health bar light show. That was fun.I arrived there, revived a couple people and the first pull is three Dregs which are yellow. They beat the tank soundly as I am chain casting my standard priest heals until he's dead but we kill them all. I consider that maybe since I screwed up and didn't buff him with courage and the shaman was afk that he wasn't as buffed as he should have been and maybe that was the difference. Afterall, they said they had been doing this for hours and they're the same level as me.So I revive the tank again and buff him, the shaman is back by now and does his buff thing so the tank proceeds to pull three again. Same result except worse, tank dies and they pour on me and lots of other folks die. I'm seriously doubting my capability in this camp now so when the shaman says he'll heal the tank with his ward spell and I can just cast attacks, that sounds like a bloody good plan.The next pull comes and the shaman handles it great, the tank gets low at times but never dies. I'm thinking, man, clerics can't be this useless at this level! So now that I have a little more time on my hands I also start to investigate this new spell I earned. Inbetween nukes I cast it on the tank for a few fights and while I'm doing that in conjunction with the shamans ward the tank doesn't get low at all even with multiple pulls.I'm starting to feel a bit better now and then the shaman says he has to go afk for dinner. Here's the real test coming up. Amazingly enough, nobody from the party suddenly had to go because their "guild needs them." The pull comes and it's a single, I cast Bestowal of Vitae and never looked back. It worked well as a stand alone heal for the rest of the night, multiple pulls included. Only a few times throughout the night did I ever have to cast Minor Archhealing and that was when we moved over to kill giants for the fallen gate access, which we earned.In summation, it's a good spell.-Alek"My bravery is limited, my stupidity is boundless."

[DarkCha]

<DIV>its nice! you will get soothing sermon next which is pretty much the same thing but for the whole group.  Its nice also</DIV>

[Nemew]

*nods* I try and keep Soothing sermon up at all times during a fight, and keep Bestow on my tank and whatever mage is lichin his health for mana (not sure what the spell in eq2 is called hehe.). Works like a charm.. mostly <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kick]

<DIV>Ok there is one problem i see right there bud. Your wasting mana on nukes instead of healing. Save that mana for heals. I know im a 20 inq right now and if you dont learn that soon youll cost your group alot of dept in harder areas of the game. So be a good healer and heal not nuke thats what mage's are for.</DIV>

[Bigstup]

I couldn't agree more Kicker, healing is my primary job, not nuking. If the situation allows for other things, great but up until that time, I'm a healer. It wasn't until I had given over the primary healer job that I cast attacks.Looking forward to Soothing Sermon!-AlekCrushbone Server"My bravery is limited, my stupidity is boundless."

[MacAll]

<DIV>Let me chime in here with agreement on the last 2 posters.  My primary job is healing, period.  Secondary to that, if mana permits, I debuff.  Tertiary and optional is nuking.  My nukes can't compete dps-wise with any other class in the game, and nothing is more frustrating to your group than for the cleric to nuke himself to empty on a seemingly "safe" pull, then a pop or train happens, the group is in melee, and I'm out of juice and can't heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One adventure a few days ago, we were deep deep in fallen gate and, out of habit, I was just doing melee, healing, and a few debuffs (radiance and pawn, my current favorites).  I spent the first 2 hours at no less than 80% mana when we had a freaky repop where a room we'd been clearing for an hour at 2-3 at a time suddenly completely repopped and put 12 mobs on us, instantly.  BoV, Soothing, and Prayer kept the entire group alive, and I was scraping the bottom of the barrel for mana towards the end...not a single death, though a number of close calls where I'm sitting and clenching in the corner, trying to squeeze out enough mana for that next heal <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Afterwards, we were sitting and medding (somewhere else than there, thank you) when the leader says to me, "You know, I was sitting here thinking what a slacker you were, not using your nukes and such, just using your pathetic melee and a heal hear-and-there, and always having near full mana, and I was working up to the point of [Removed for Content] at you about it when that spawn hit us and you saved the entire party, so I'm going to shut up and stop thinking, as that's obviously not my job.  Thanks."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Add to that, the more mana you have, the faster the group can pull, the more exps the entire group gets.  The amount of damage you'll do by nuking is far less than the amount of damage the entire group does because you have the mana to keep them alive and in the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 copper, for what they are worth.</DIV>

[gwakamo]

<DIV>"Ok there is one problem i see right there bud. Your wasting mana on nukes instead of healing. Save that mana for heals. I know im a 20 inq right now and if you dont learn that soon youll cost your group alot of dept in harder areas of the game. So be a good healer and heal not nuke thats what mage's are for."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that we are healers, and we are debuffers. But we are actually good dmg dealers. My guildie has the highest record of melee hit on the blackburrow server yet, which is something like 261 dmg. My admonishing nukes usually do between 70-90 dmg at lvl 21 and ive found that often, it is safe to let go a few nukes to help with the damage once the debuff is cast, the melee arent getting hit much. 70-90 dmg compared to the server record of 261 is not bad at all, and hes 2 lvl higher than me. So i will tend to agree somewhat with people that we are not nukers, that our primary job is to heal and debuff, but i would not go as far as to say that your smites should never be used. In fact they can be used in HOs and to help finish mobs that arent threathening. I used to never use em, to play it safe, but once i got comfortable and knew in what situations it was good to use them, and in what situation it was too dangerous to do so, we started clearing monsters faster than before with my guild group. </DIV>

[Ey]

It was my understanding that sitting in a fight doesn't help your power regen. Can anyone definitely confirm or deny this?

[MacAll]

<DIV>I've done a lot of experimentation on this, through a number of fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sitting vs Standing = no difference in regeneration that I can detect.  Did this many times, emptied my mana and let it regen up in both positions and it took the same amount of time.</DIV> <DIV>Melee vs Peace = Regeneration seems to be significantly slower if you're fighting, either hitting or being hit.  I regen much faster if I step out of the combat, turn melee off and rest.  I've also noticed that I regen slower in combat than out of combat, which is something I can't control if the group is in combat.</DIV>

[Tipa]

Bestowal of Virtue is an amazing spell line, we keep getting upgrades that make it better and better. It has fairly low aggro (but some, and the group version has more), and is frankly amazing. Cast it on your tank when the tank's at 80% or so so it has some damage to heal. I'm able to heal without aggro when we pull whole groups, like the commander patrols in the commonlands. It's a really amazing spell.As for our job in groups. We're inquisitors! Look at our spell list. It is our job to heal, AND debuff the harder mobs, AND eventually to beef up the attacks of our allies. And why not nuke? Against undead, tossing a radiant strike at the right time during a heroic opportunity could turn the tide. And there's no reason not to melee, since you can't sit to med.EQ2 has this clever thing with targeting. Target the main tank. Now you can heal/vitae him like normal. But if you cast a nuke, or melee, you damage his target, not him, and can easily refresh vitae as needed while contributing to the group's killing power. An experienced healer should know when it is time to back off and just focus on healing, and when to get in their and use our unique abilities to make that fight shorter.

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kicker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok there is one problem i see right there bud. Your wasting mana on nukes instead of healing. Save that mana for heals. I know im a 20 inq right now and if you dont learn that soon youll cost your group alot of dept in harder areas of the game. So be a good healer and heal not nuke thats what mage's are for.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Whatever....</P> <P>Good clerics know when to do what, to better their group.</P> <P>Real good clerics (esp Inquisitors) recognize their role is to support the team, but that might mean helping kill something not just sitting on your thumbs (which in RL will eventually drive you away from clericing)</P> <P> </P> <P>Just watch what you're doing. </P> <P>- Don't ever over nuke. Learn to guage how much more damage a mob is going to inflict on your group. If you can drop a few nukes or a debuff and speed up that combat, without jeopardizing your groups health, then by all means do so. Sure this is actually means you have to think, but thats what good clerics do. </P> <P>- Pay attention to EVERYTHING. I frequently mouse-look 360 ° just to keep an eye out for adds... or more commonly, mages that have backup up to far and headed towards upsafe grounds. Healers, and priests specifically should be core to the groups battle comand.</P> <P>- Don't be afraid to take agro if you need to. Esp in a group without a good tank, our AC allows us to take more abuse than any non tank class. So if you see your mages overagroing, you're better off trying to find a way to hyper agro yourself and keeping vitae up, than trying to keep a mage alive with the same spell. I solo quite a bit so my defense and offense stay maxed. I tank groups of 5 whites with ease while the pds meleers rip them apart, and its actually much easier and more efficient than watching them fight over agro and having to heal 2 or 3 people.</P> <P>- And most important, BE A PART OF THE GAME. Can't emphasize that enough. EQ2 clerics still play the same basic role as EQ1... but we don't have to be Sit, Stand, Heal, Sit, rinse , repeat. Enjoy, have fun, see ya!</P>

[oz]

<DIV>Why in gods name would you use Soothing Sermon? It's a group heal when the only person taking damage should be the tank.  Soothing Sermon is only a group collective of heals, meaning that it only heals so many times, so if the tank is taking the only damage then he is the only one using SS. The power for using SS is an extreme waste of resources. BoV uses half as much power as SS and heals just as much. Ive grouped with many other Inquis's and many of them use SS. About 5 mintues into a good fight they are already out of power while I have only used about 1 bar. If you want to be a good healer then use BoV and Combat Healing when needed and you'll be fine. Use SS ONLY when there are more then one agro and 2 or more of the group members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And also, Clerics/Inquis's damage is considerably lower then other casters. Use your attacks only when extremely bored or are fighting Blue or lower cons <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by oz2y on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> oz2y wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why in gods name would you use Soothing Sermon? It's a group heal when the only person taking damage should be the tank.  Soothing Sermon is only a group collective of heals, meaning that it only heals so many times, so if the tank is taking the only damage then he is the only one using SS. The power for using SS is an extreme waste of resources. BoV uses half as much power as SS and heals just as much. Ive grouped with many other Inquis's and many of them use SS. About 5 mintues into a good fight they are already out of power while I have only used about 1 bar. If you want to be a good healer then use BoV and Combat Healing when needed and you'll be fine. Use SS ONLY when there are more then one agro and 2 or more of the group members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And also, Clerics/Inquis's damage is considerably lower then other casters. Use your attacks only when extremely bored or are fighting Blue or lower cons <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by oz2y on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>People use SS because it allows 2 clerics to stack reactives... SS has more reactive charges than BoV. [Removed for Content] cast is not wasted because only one tank is getting hit. It will fire the same number of times not matter who is getting hit. It also provides a security blanket in the case of riposte or AE damage.</P> <P>When multiple mobs are hitting your MT for 400 a poke, cutting those hits in half to 200 with stacked reactives makes a big difference.</P> <P>EDIT: LOL, got 1 star for making a valid point. Gotta love it.</P><p>Message Edited by Kiris420 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[Poon]

<DIV>blah blah what they all said and on Aoe attackers SS is perfect.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and on the point of nuking, y not?  In moderation of course.  And really i dont nuke unless im extremely bored or mostly when an HO pops up.  But dont risk the life of ur tank to finish that HO.... heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im only 21 so dont know about the other upgrades.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ah yes and i like the ae debuff we get its neat, forced submission... heh </DIV>

[Mortainio]

<DIV><FONT face=Garamond>I would have to say that nukeing is perfectly acceptible when done right . especialy when done with a adpet1 admonishing smite (^_^)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond>long as your party is in good shape and your sure you wont get any adds or pops soon its perfect fine to nuke and silly not to. ofcourse be mind full of your power supply but if your drinking the right type of food for your lvl, and even better have some one in group with power regen you shouldnt have a problem. And while yes healing is what we do, there is NO REASON not to melee , NO REASON to sit in combat as it has no effect other then makeing you more useless. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond> Also as you lvl you will find that you HAVE TO debuff tougher mobs , as inquisitors we get some of the stronger more interesting debuffs in the game , wich you should liberaly apply to all heritics you come accross:robotmad:. </FONT><FONT face=Garamond>at first debuff might not seem so important but trust me you will begin to see a difference in the fights as you get more of them and start fighting harder stuff. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond>More importantly make sure to keep your spells as upgraded as possible.  learn to mine, it will eventually get you a precious silver or coral to make that Adept3 spell that will make you known as a rageing bad **ZOMG** healer in any group your in . i should know = P  .  If you do get a chance for adept 3 put it in bestowal of vitae, trust me youll thank me later.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond>The true key to being our Dark Lords Crushing Mailed Fist is to learn balance, dedication, and always make sure no heritic lives by administering our Dark Lords Grace .</FONT></DIV>

[Coor]

<DIV>After level 20 there will be plenty of reasons not to melee and nuke in combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you get hit by AE attacks and ripostes for over 300 damage because you are standing next to the mob, then you are putting your group in unnesessary risk.</DIV> <DIV>I rarely nuke in combat unless im required to complete a HO since my dot will do more damage anyway and I can save my presious time and mana to something more important.</DIV>

[DarkElfCleric]

Barrage (the AE attack) is a cone effect, if you stand behind the tank you will be hit. Standing behind the Mob will stop Barrage from hitting you, and will also stop ripostes.

[Mortainio]

<DIV>what he said       </DIV> <DIV>                            </DIV> <DIV>                             </DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>At lvl 27 my ac is > 1500 and my hp > 1200.  I was in a group last night with a templar who sat back, did primary heals and was appalled that I would "face the peril" and wade in to melee.  I drop 1 BoV on myself before stepping in, which ensures I don't need heals (my BoV's 128hp/click) and, while I don't have l33t m3l33 skillz, I can add 200hp or so of dmg to the fight, and that has more than once turned the tide of a close battle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From my perspective, there is a great deal of flexibility that the Inquisitor brings to a fight that no other class can, and that flexibility has me chosen over a Templar every time.  Here's how I approach any battle:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. BoV on the tank BEFORE he engages...this allows you to med the mana back up before engaging.  If you wait until after he's engaged, then you not only risk agro (small, but it happens), you also put yourself into combat mode and slow your regen, so you start off -1 BoV's worth of mana.<BR>2. BoV on myself (like I said, I like to get my hands dirty), again allowing med-up time before engaging.<BR>3. Submission on the targetted mob.  This is an AoE debuff that reduces the effectiveness of all of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, it varies.  If there is no enchanter and it's a multi-pull, I put Heretic on each mob except the last.  I know the spell sounds silly, but on a 5 mob pull, the last mob is like 75% dead by the time the tanks get to it, which really helps, especially for such a cheap mana spell.  For Rallos' sake, don't use it if there's a chanter in the group, as it breaks every mez and gets you fileted like a Panda by your group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If things are tight, with lots of adds or AoE's, I'll stay back and focus completely on healing, with SS and PoA to keep everyone alive.  Otherwise, I step in and use Oppression and Cleansing to add dps to the fight and bring the mobs down a LOT faster.  Keep BoV on the main tank and use Combat Heal to fill in the gaps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a particularly nasty pull, like an Orange ^^ mob, I'll sit back and unload every debuff I have on it, significantly reducing it's effectiveness and increasing ours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm afraid I have a strong dislike for prissy cleric/templars who stand back, do nothing but heal, and scream "on me!!" and run around when a mob looks at them sideways.  The truth hurts, and it's my job to bring it to every vile creature that walks upon the shattered lands.</DIV>

[Mortainio]

<DIV>Amen brother </DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>We survived the Threshing.</DIV> <DIV>Pain is part of who we are, a part of what we bring to the world.</DIV> <DIV>Fear of pain is fear of the Truth.</DIV>

[Za]

<DIV>Its just sad seeing so many newb clerics skewing the view of what clerics can and can't do.</DIV> <DIV>If you can't do anything besides heal and stay 90% full health from pull to pull, you're a detriment to the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play smart!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few key points to bring out in this thread...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. SS and BoV stack. I knew this but apparently some people still don't see the immense usefulness of stacking these two, esp at the begining of combat before all the debuffs set in, or during particulary large pulls. Knowing how to heal is 90% of playing a cleric. If you know how to heal, healing actually becomes LESS difficult and less a burden.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. At L25, I drop all my debuffs and DoTs on a mob, and completely neuter it! They're absolutely essential to a good Inquisitor. If all you wanted to do was heal and sit back, you shoulda picked a Templar. Our debuffs are a vital part of our damage mitigation strategy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. We ain't wizards, but we still contribute damage to the team. Learn to play your healing role properly, and you can actually become MORE useful than just a walking bandade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Learn to play the game. Learn were to stand during combat, and tell others as well. I regularly remind non MTs that if they get rampage damage, it's their fault when they die. Wizards that stand 3 feet from mobs unneccessarily and try to overnuke... are waste of a group slot. Educate your team mates and make the group as effective as possible. People who don't want to listen should get used to the LFG button.</DIV>

[Paddrino-EQ2]

<DIV>I think all of you are right hehe. When you get to the higher levels you learn quickly how to manage your mana. Many times I started out trying to nuke and immediately stopped it seeing how close to death everyone came when I ran out of mana, but the big thing every healer must concentrate on is the way the mt is taking damage. What I usually do when joining a group is:<BR> <BR>1- For the first 4 to 7 pulls I do nothing but heals. This gives me a feel for how much damage the tank can take. Sometimes you get decent level tanks or mostly damage dealers that have almost no defense that need healing more than some lower level tank with great defense and really good armor. I always cast BoV, and if the MT has less than 1/2 bar down from full I'll query a combat heal after that. If the mt is getting hammered by something crazy that is doing uber damage and he takes it on every hit I'll put in a minor arch or an arch heal after this then repeat. For wizs that do the health to power thing or power to damage thing I'll only hit them with a minor heal. They usually have low amounts of health anyway and one of those usually does the trick. If they are doing their job right they shouldn't get agro anyway.<BR>2- After all those pulls I am watching my mana consumption on each pull. If I find that i'm over 50% on every pull then I will start debufs regularly on every pull. If I am under 50% then I will not debuf at all unless they pull a double arrow or something really hard like a named. This saves me mana for if a train or some pop hits us out of nowhere if I'm dumping it on the tank that can't avoid a hit and is taking max damage every time.<BR>3- If I still find that I’ve got around 40% of mana left after the next few pulls then I start nuking about every other pull and usually more on the named / double arrows. Even if I nuke, I only do so after the opponent gets in the red. I don't want anyone in my group to die because I started becoming a mana waster.<BR>4- On almost every mob pulled I get behind and start whacking with my staff. I am not doing much per hit but I am doing some to knock the health down about a bar if the mob is really tough. This saves on the number of heals I have to do and rest time between pulls.<BR> <BR>As for SS, I don't usually use it. It simply takes up too much mana. I only use it if I notice that the mob splits or multiple people are taking damage at one time or if we are about to get ran over by a pop and everyone is running and I have no agro. If you have a good tank they are paying attention to this anyway and work on getting the agro off of everyone else quickly before I run out of mana on other members of a group that shouldn't have agro in the first place. The key of being a good healer is to have lots of experience with groups. You need to know where you need to fill the gap and when you are just wasting mana. You can only do this by joining both bad and good groups to see what is out there. One pet peeve of mine are healers and nukers that once they get agro or take one hit they run away from the group. I wish people wouldn't do this. I can't heal when you are running away and the mt can't take the agro off of you when you run off. Just run around the mt so that the healers can heal you and you don’t get people killed because the healer is chasing you trying to keep you from debiting the group or the mt breaks off and chases some agro down that will come back and kill the healer after you are dead lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paddrino-EQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>As for SS, I don't usually use it. It simply takes up too much mana. I only use it if I notice that the mob splits or multiple people are taking damage at one time or if we are about to get ran over by a pop and everyone is running and I have no agro. If you have a good tank they are paying attention to this anyway and work on getting the agro off of everyone else quickly before I run out of mana on other members of a group that shouldn't have agro in the first place. The key of being a good healer is to have lots of experience with groups. You need to know where you need to fill the gap and when you are just wasting mana. You can only do this by joining both bad and good groups to see what is out there. One pet peeve of mine are healers and nukers that once they get agro or take one hit they run away from the group. I wish people wouldn't do this. I can't heal when you are running away and the mt can't take the agro off of you when you run off. Just run around the mt so that the healers can heal you and you don’t get people killed because the healer is chasing you trying to keep you from debiting the group or the mt breaks off and chases some agro down that will come back and kill the healer after you are dead lol. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Accidents happen.  Trains come by, mobs pop unexpectedly, the mob AI behaves differently...feces doth occur.  For me, the key to SS is casting it right before the fight.  Before the pull, I drop SS, then BoV on the tank, and by the time I am forced to heal or engage, I'm full mana again and got the 1st SS/BoV for free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The worst part of any engagement is the first 10 seconds of it.  During this time, every pulled mob is pouring out their mana onto your tank.  The big nukes and DD attacks that the mob has will come down on your tank like a ton of bricks, which is why having that SS/BoV stacked on him REALLY helps take the edge off the pull and break the back of the mobs.  I rarely use SS to be honest, and then only when everything is going to hell.  For example, our chanter backed up 1 step too far, agroed a clay guardian, and died in 2 hits, mid-cast on my heal for him.  The tank is out of mana, can't taunt, and everyone is getting hit, so I hunker down, use SS/PoA and we survive with just the one death.  If I'd've tried to focus single heals on the party members that were being hit, my mana simply would not have lasted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying SS hung the moon, but there are definately situations where it is extremely valuable.</DIV>

[Arisma]

<DIV>MacAllen has hit the nail on the head. SS is a great spell in the situation he has outlined above.  I prefer to use SS and BoV on the tank prior to the pull.  Between the buff and the pull itself I can med up to almost full (I am a provisioner and drink only crafted items for a big increase in power regen).  As the item is pulled back to the group I lay down all my de-buffs then re-apply BoV as needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuffs will save you power in the long run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Find your own method and have fun with it... ever cleric out there does their thing a little differently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arismath</DIV> <DIV>GUK</DIV>

[Kiris420]

<DIV>I decided to run a simple power efficiency test since no one else seems to share my enthusiasm about Soothing Sermon. My results from best spell to worst spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kiris LVL 23 INQ</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>App3 Bestowal of Vitae </STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Total HP healed = 408 - 4 x 102</DIV> <DIV>Power used = 55</DIV> <DIV>Rating = 7.41</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>App1 Soothing Sermon </STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Total HP healed = 696 - 8 x 87</DIV> <DIV>Power used = 105</DIV> <DIV>Rating = 6.62</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Adept1 Arch Heal</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Total HP healed = 358</DIV> <DIV>Power used = 84</DIV> <DIV>Rating = 4.26</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>App3 Combat Heal</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Total HP healed = 188</DIV> <DIV>Power used = 53</DIV> <DIV>Rating = 3.54</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This confirms what I had always thought but never actually tested. Stacking reactives is the most mana efficient way to heal. This will heal over 1100 HP for 160 mana. SS is a great spell all of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>Roll your casting times and chance of interrupt into it and recalculate.  Even without it, my numbers do not create the same results as yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BoV's casting is 2 sec, with a reacast of 6.</DIV> <DIV>Ss's casting time is 5 sec with a recast of 15.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, 8 sec after casting BoV, you can cast it again.  And half again before your next SS.  When you're fighting mobs that are hitting for 3-400/hit, you don't have 20 sec of sitting there with your finger in your ear while your tank dies so you can cast your "most efficient" spell.  Please do keep in mind that very few of us work in a lab, but fight in actual combat conditions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by MacAllen on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:07 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by MacAllen on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>Roll your casting times and chance of interrupt into it and recalculate.  Even without it, my numbers do not create the same results as yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BoV's casting is 2 sec, with a reacast of 6.</DIV> <DIV>Ss's casting time is 5 sec with a recast of 15.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, 8 sec after casting BoV, you can cast it again.  And again, and half again before your next SS.  When you're fighting mobs that are hitting for 3-400/hit, you don't have 20 sec of sitting there with your finger in your ear while your tank dies so you can cast your "most efficient" spell.  Please do keep in mind that very few of us work in a lab, but fight in actual combat conditions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by MacAllen on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>You are missing the point of what he was saying, he was agreeing with you guy.</P> <P>As you can tell by our names, we are in the same guild, I play a 23 guardian, he plays a 23 inq.  Before each fight he casts SS, and BoV on me.  From that point on he casts reactives, he doesnt just sit there and "wait" for SS to refresh.   With him healing me this way (Koroshiya on blackburrow if you want to check my hp/ac, not sure if that would fit into your equasions) he usually is never oom, can nuke and add debuffs to the fight, and only "DD heal" he really ever needs to use on me is combat heal which I love because it does that minor atk buff also.</P><p>Message Edited by Kiris on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 PM</span>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>Roll your casting times and chance of interrupt into it and recalculate.  Even without it, my numbers do not create the same results as yours.</DIV> <P> <HR> <BR></P> <P>Well, lets see your results. I would be interested to see what different lvls and skill books do to these ratings.</P> <P>As far as interupts, I do not get aggro - ever - so I am not sure what your are getting at. Fizzles - I rarely fizzle on any spell other than one I just got. As for casting times, we would have to do some more indepth testing to see what that is in game fighting situations.</P> <P>Something like - (total amount of time of fight) / (Total amount of time casting a healing spell) - for different con lvls and tiers of mobs. Then you would have to leverage that against the total amount of time it takes between pulls to med to full again just to make it fair.</P> <P>I am sure someone could come up with a better test if they wanted too, but thats the best I could think up in 2 mins.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[MacAll]

<DIV>I don't think so.  He is saying Sooting Sermon is good "all of the time", but it's not.  Unless all is going to hell, I will only use the SS in the beginning, and only if I think I need that extra power.  95% of the time, I lead off with a simple Bov and only use BoV, so SS is not "good all of the time".  It's a time and mana hog, from my perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not being contrary, just disagreeing with what I perceive his point to be.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>If you never get agro, ever, then you don't have a feel for what most of us have to deal with.  Not everyone is raised in a guild bottle, nurtured and protected from harm and allowed to go naked because no monster would ever deign to come near us for fear of our guild's retribution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of us are in the trenches, taking the hits the tank is unable to taunt, and having to keep people alive while being beaten on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That aside, I see the fundamental disagreement here...using your numbers, your assumption is that your tank will never take > 696hp (max SS can heal) in a 20 sec period.  Given your level, I can most certainly see why you might think that way.  I've been with tanks that take 2000hp in 20 sec, so what we have here is a difference in experience, one that will resolve itself very soon for you, so I won't belabour the point any further <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  When your tank drops dead between casts of SS and you're forced to fill with CH and BoV just to keep him standing, we'll both find ourselves on the same side of the fence <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, for the record, Favor of the Repentant is WORSE than BoV will be at the level you get it, so FoR will sit unused until you find the Adept version of it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>/snip</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I've been with tanks that take 2000hp in 20 sec, so what we have here is a difference in experience, one that will resolve itself very soon for you, so I won't belabour the point any further <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  When your tank drops dead between casts of SS and you're forced to fill with CH and BoV just to keep him standing, we'll both find ourselves on the same side of the fence <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/snip</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Did you not just read what I posted?  I told you, as his MT 99% of playtime I am telling you he DOES mix in BoV and CH between casts of SS. lol.<p>Message Edited by Kiris on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 PM</span>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<BR> <BR>Did you not just read what I posted?  I told you, as his MT 99% of playtime I am telling you he DOES mix in BoV and CH between casts of SS. lol. <P>Message Edited by Kiris on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yup.  I read him and you say that SS is better than BoV, and that he fills in the time between his SS's with BoV and CH.  What I'm saying and said, is that is not even remotely the best way to heal.  Just using his numbers as an example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He hits you with SS, giving you 696hp over 20 sec for 105p.  That's .33 hp/power/sec.</DIV> <DIV>He fills in with BoV, giving you 408hp over 8 sec for 55p.  That's .93 hp/power/sec, almost 3x more effective.</DIV> <DIV>Now, during the 5 sec that he's trying to cast SS, he could have cast and been finished with BoV, which really makes a difference in a real life situation where one does not have one's mother protecting one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, given his tanks never take any real damage, and given that he's never, ever hit, my argument is moot in his case.  I'd like to say I wish I could sit in my Barcolounger with a beer in my hand while my tank makes sure no one scratches my purty armor, but I'd be lying as it sounds quite dull.</DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<BR> <BR>Did you not just read what I posted?  I told you, as his MT 99% of playtime I am telling you he DOES mix in BoV and CH between casts of SS. lol. <P>Message Edited by Kiris on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yup.  I read him and you say that SS is better than BoV, and that he fills in the time between his SS's with BoV and CH.  What I'm saying and said, is that is not even remotely the best way to heal.  Just using his numbers as an example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He hits you with SS, giving you 696hp over 20 sec for 105p.  That's .33 hp/power/sec.</DIV> <DIV>He fills in with BoV, giving you 408hp over 8 sec for 55p.  That's .93 hp/power/sec, almost 3x more effective.</DIV> <DIV>Now, during the 5 sec that he's trying to cast SS, he could have cast and been finished with BoV, which really makes a difference in a real life situation where one does not have one's mother protecting one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, given his tanks never take any real damage, and given that he's never, ever hit, my argument is moot in his case.  I'd like to say I wish I could sit in my Barcolounger with a beer in my hand while my tank makes sure no one scratches my purty armor, but I'd be lying as it sounds quite dull.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>quote one sentence in EITHER of our posts that says SS is better then BoV in itself.  No where did either one of us say that.  What his inital responce to Ozz2y was, that his assumption of SS was wrong about it never being used unless a group is getting hit.  He then proceeded to say that he uses it mixed with BoV, and CH for his heal cycles, and then just did a very quick diagram to show power to heal ratio's.   Im sorry you cant comprehend that sitting behind a mob that cone AE's, Healing, and Doing DD's will mean you never get hit...  but why do you have to take damage to "have fun"  I dont get it.</P> <P> </P> <P>edit:  And if you want to continue to try and throw cheap shots to get your point across, you will just show how clueless you really are.  Arguing against someone who is making the same point as you, that using reactives is more mana effecient then just direct healing, giving you more time to do things like DD, and Melee from a safe range makes the point hit home even more.</P><p>Message Edited by Kiris on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:47 PM</span>

[Kiris420]

<DIV>BTW, Thanks Matt for replying and making it look like I am a dork that will post in reply to myself to agree. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to the topic at hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too am not in a lab. I use this pulling ^ ^ in FG, ED and Nek. In guild groups and in pickup groups. My guild has 17 people and I am lucky to have 5 people on at one time. We are not even GL5 - which means we cant even organize enough to do somehitng as simple as that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stack SS and BoV before pull. Tank pulls. Cast Forced Sub. and another debuff depending on what type of mob when tank has aggro. Both spells fire off 4 times. BoV poofs, SS has 4 more 'charges'.  BoV has recharged, so I recast. SS poofs, but has recharged by now. Recast if necessary. Mix in a direct heal  or another BoV if necessary to finish the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not "sitting there with your finger in your ear" as you put it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You fit 2 BoV's inside each SS cast since SS last 2x as long. I am not counting on mobs to do 696 hp of damge in 20 seconds. 2 BoV's and 1 SS in 20 seconds is what I cover only stacking reactives for 215 power. That is over 1500hp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to your point that when I get higher and mobs hit harder. Well, it would seem all the more important to try and keep the most power efficient heals up as much as possible so I have more power to cast direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SS is only a mana hog if it doesnt fire off all 8 times.</DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris420 wrote:<BR> <DIV>BTW, Thanks Matt for replying and making it look like I am a dork that will post in reply to myself to agree. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to the topic at hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I too am not in a lab. I use this pulling ^ ^ in FG, ED and Nek. In guild groups and in pickup groups. My guild has 17 people and I am lucky to have 5 people on at one time. We are not even GL5 - which means we cant even organize enough to do somehitng as simple as that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stack SS and BoV before pull. Tank pulls. Cast Forced Sub. and another debuff depending on what type of mob when tank has aggro. Both spells fire off 4 times. BoV poofs, SS has 4 more 'charges'.  BoV has recharged, so I recast. SS poofs, but has recharged by now. Recast if necessary. Mix in a direct heal  or another BoV if necessary to finish the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not "sitting there with your finger in your ear" as you put it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You fit 2 BoV's inside each SS cast since SS last 2x as long. I am not counting on mobs to do 696 hp of damge in 20 seconds. 2 BoV's and 1 SS in 20 seconds is what I cover only stacking reactives for 215 power. That is over 1500hp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to your point that when I get higher and mobs hit harder. Well, it would seem all the more important to try and keep the most power efficient heals up as much as possible so I have more power to cast direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SS is only a mana hog if it doesnt fire off all 8 times.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Anything I can do to make you look like a dork bud, im willing to sacrifice myself for the cause!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but considering that out of all the clerics I have ever grouped with, Kiris has been the most "effecient" at keeping me alive, and keeping me pulling, I tend to believe in his theory of healing.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>I so hate doing this, but for you I'll give it a whirl.  Let's start with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"SS is a great spell all of the time"  - No, it isn't.  It's great for the beginning of a combat that you expect your tank will be drilled hard, or in a melee that's gone sour with lots of agro.  Otherwise, BoV is by FAR the supierior spell and SS is NOT a great spell to use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I do not get aggro - ever -"  - Unrealistic, likely not true as absolutes are rarely ever true.  Every player (not just inquis) I've ever met has gotten agro at one point or another.  This statement implies you walk across dangerous zones and don't ever even get accidental agro, which makes you perfect and why are you stooping to bicker with someone as insignificant as me? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SS is a mana hog all of the time if you include time into the equation.  It is 3x more mana inefficient than BoV.  If you're BoV's and SS's aren't firing off all their shots in 20 sec, then you're sandbagging.  I drop BoV and SS on my main tank, he engages, and I start casting Bov again because I'll see the depleted message before the BoV is finished casting, and if I delay, he goes down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get agro all the time, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is incompetant tanks who couldn't hold agro if you served it to them in a stein.  I don't have TIME to sit still for the 5 sec it takes to cast SS.  I'm not kidding when I say that a 2200hp tank with an ac of 1900 can drop in the 5 sec it takes you to cast SS, and Rallos help him AND you if you fizzle or get hit and interrupted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the cheap shots are my way of saying I like you and your sister, little inky <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/snip</DIV> <DIV>"I do not get aggro - ever -"  - Unrealistic, likely not true as absolutes are rarely ever true.  Every player (not just inquis) I've ever met has gotten agro at one point or another.  This statement implies you walk across dangerous zones and don't ever even get accidental agro, which makes you perfect and why are you stooping to bicker with someone as insignificant as me? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>/snip</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>IIl let Chris take care of the rest of your post since he is the inq, and I only see the "end result" of his healing methods.  But for this snippit, I gotta say, we are talking about one thing, and one thing only here.  Grouping.  We are not talking about walking through aggro and having to heal yourself in a jiffy while running away, we are not talking about Raid encounter fights, we are talking every day orange, yellow, white Double tiered grouped mobs in Nek / Edgewater / FG.  The bottom line is Chris NEVER gets aggro unless I do something stupid.  I as the tank, am the one who decides wether he gets aggro or not, and luckily for me, I have been a MT since the days of EQ raids on Naggy in Rubicite kicking it with my guildies and their ssoy's at level 50 in EQlive.  Although the game fundimentals have changed, tanking has not.  If you know how to taunt, and you are aware there should never be more then one second where a cleric will get hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also do not pretend to be the best tank around.  But the bottom line is I am better then most who are new to the game, or "Series" or those who do not take the game as serious as I do.  I have a limited amount of play time, so I have a real limited amount of time for foul ups.  and because of that I do make sure no one in that group gets aggro, because if they do its because they do not understand how to control their own aggro, and if its putting my group, or my guild mates into danger I will tell them how to correct it or give them the option of leaving.</DIV>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>I so hate doing this, but for you I'll give it a whirl.  Let's start with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"SS is a great spell all of the time"  - No, it isn't.  It's great for the beginning of a combat that you expect your tank will be drilled hard, or in a melee that's gone sour with lots of agro.  Otherwise, BoV is by FAR the supierior spell and SS is NOT a great spell to use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I do not get aggro - ever -"  - Unrealistic, likely not true as absolutes are rarely ever true.  Every player (not just inquis) I've ever met has gotten agro at one point or another.  This statement implies you walk across dangerous zones and don't ever even get accidental agro, which makes you perfect and why are you stooping to bicker with someone as insignificant as me? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SS is a mana hog all of the time if you include time into the equation.  It is 3x more mana inefficient than BoV.  If you're BoV's and SS's aren't firing off all their shots in 20 sec, then you're sandbagging.  I drop BoV and SS on my main tank, he engages, and I start casting Bov again because I'll see the depleted message before the BoV is finished casting, and if I delay, he goes down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get agro all the time, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is incompetant tanks who couldn't hold agro if you served it to them in a stein.  I don't have TIME to sit still for the 5 sec it takes to cast SS.  I'm not kidding when I say that a 2200hp tank with an ac of 1900 can drop in the 5 sec it takes you to cast SS, and Rallos help him AND you if you fizzle or get hit and interrupted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the cheap shots are my way of saying I like you and your sister, little inky <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Arguing the semantics of a few quotes you take out of context is not exactly the best way to make me see the light.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SS is a great spell all of the time. You even stated that you use it all the time before fights. I am not talking about using only SS to heal no matter the situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you very well know that when I was talking about aggro that I was speaking about it 'in the line of healing' context, not waltzing solo across dangerous zones with aggro mobs or if an add pops right on top of me. To lack such basic common sense is an insult to your own intelligence, since you are obviously a smart and educated individual. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are trying to make it sound like if a mob is almost dead and my Tank needs 200 hp worth of healing I am going to use SS. Again, you are not using common sense to look at what I am saying. You are trying to take the most lopsided example that you can find to support your point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You point out that the 5 seconds it takes to cast will kill a tank. I wonder then, at lvl 27, which you are when i looked up your character; if you never have 5 seconds to spare in battle or else a tank will die. How do you ever cast a debuff since the time it takes to cast a debuff + the time it takes to cast a heal roughly equals 5 seconds? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>IIl let Chris take care of the rest of your post since he is the inq, and I only see the "end result" of his healing methods.  But for this snippit, I gotta say, we are talking about one thing, and one thing only here.  Grouping.  We are not talking about walking through aggro and having to heal yourself in a jiffy while running away, we are not talking about Raid encounter fights, we are talking every day orange, yellow, white Double tiered grouped mobs in Nek / Edgewater / FG.  The bottom line is Chris NEVER gets aggro unless I do something stupid.  I as the tank, am the one who decides wether he gets aggro or not, and luckily for me, I have been a MT since the days of EQ raids on Naggy in Rubicite kicking it with my guildies and their ssoy's at level 50 in EQlive.  Although the game fundimentals have changed, tanking has not.  If you know how to taunt, and you are aware there should never be more then one second where a cleric will get hit.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Hopefully you understand my poking fun at him, as there is a huge difference between "I don't get agro -ever-" and "In groups, with my favorite tank, in these specific zones, vs these specific mobs, I rarely if ever get agro unless my tank does something stupd" :p   If he's going to step up and be massively arrogant, I'm going to poke him full of holes...it's my duty, and one I take to with great fervor :p</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I also do not pretend to be the best tank around.  But the bottom line is I am better then most who are new to the game, or "Series" or those who do not take the game as serious as I do.  I have a limited amount of play time, so I have a real limited amount of time for foul ups.  and because of that I do make sure no one in that group gets aggro, because if they do its because they do not understand how to control their own aggro, and if its putting my group, or my guild mates into danger I will tell them how to correct it or give them the option of leaving.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I took a week off of work to hit the game hard, and ended up outlevelling my guild.  They'll catch up, but in the meantime I am 100% pickup groups.  I played both a warrior and a cleric to the highest levels in EQ, so I know both sides of the equation very well.  I've played with tanks who never lost agro, no matter what I did, and I've played with tanks that, after 30 sec of me doing nothing, I cast a single debuff and get all the agro from all the mobs and he insists he's been taunting.  While my "hunker down" is pretty low (spelled non-existent), I turtle with the best of them and can stay alive in that situation well-enough, unless someone else is also getting hit.  It is next-to-impossible for me to heal myself AND someone else, and using SS to cover all of us is simply out of the question because it's near impossible to cast a 5 sec spell with 4 mobs hitting me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also have little patience for screwups and, if I'm sent to revive due to one, I'm not coming back.  Accidents happen and I'm very tolerant of such things, but glaring incompetance is not tolerated.  I've seen how the best tanks can operate, and while I don't hold every tank I meet to that standard, there are things I've come to expect and, as a cleric, I'm a valuable enough member of any team that I can pick and choose to avoid being debted by such behaviour.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris420 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>You point out that the 5 seconds it takes to cast will kill a tank. I wonder then, at lvl 27, which you are when i looked up your character; if you never have 5 seconds to spare in battle or else a tank will die. How do you ever cast a debuff since the time it takes to cast a debuff + the time it takes to cast a heal roughly equals 5 seconds? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>In those situations I don't debuff, I can't.  Those situations are almost always the first 20 sec of any big pull, where the mobs are pouring it on, they still have mana, and/or the chanter hasn't mezzed them yet.  Past there, I can "relax" and start using the other tools in the toolbox, but for those first 20 sec, I have the choice of 3 BoV's or 1 SS and the SS isn't even on my healing bar at that point.  SS is a pre-combat prep at best, and a pig when it comes to mana and time.  I would never, in any context, say it was a great spell, which is why I disagreed with your post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, for the record, I have no idea what you mean, I don't know you from Antonius Bayle.  I only know what you typed here and took those statements in the context they were typed.  You and your tank did a lot of backpedaling and re-explaining after those ridiculously general statements to rectify the mistake, and I've stopped beating on you because of it, but the fact of the matter remains, you stepped out there with incorrect positions...whether they were what you meant, or you simply can't explain yourself clearly is irrelevant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And sorry for calling you an inky.  Your boy's an inky, I figured you were too.  My mistake.</DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris420 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>You point out that the 5 seconds it takes to cast will kill a tank. I wonder then, at lvl 27, which you are when i looked up your character; if you never have 5 seconds to spare in battle or else a tank will die. How do you ever cast a debuff since the time it takes to cast a debuff + the time it takes to cast a heal roughly equals 5 seconds? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>In those situations I don't debuff, I can't.  Those situations are almost always the first 20 sec of any big pull, where the mobs are pouring it on, they still have mana, and/or the chanter hasn't mezzed them yet.  Past there, I can "relax" and start using the other tools in the toolbox, but for those first 20 sec, I have the choice of 3 BoV's or 1 SS and the SS isn't even on my healing bar at that point.  SS is a pre-combat prep at best, and a pig when it comes to mana and time.  I would never, in any context, say it was a great spell, which is why I disagreed with your post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, for the record, I have no idea what you mean, I don't know you from Antonius Bayle.  I only know what you typed here and took those statements in the context they were typed.  You and your tank did a lot of backpedaling and re-explaining after those ridiculously general statements to rectify the mistake, and I've stopped beating on you because of it, but the fact of the matter remains, you stepped out there with incorrect positions...whether they were what you meant, or you simply can't explain yourself clearly is irrelevant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And sorry for calling you an inky.  Your boy's an inky, I figured you were too.  My mistake.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>actually he is the inkie, im the ogre =)</P> <P> </P> <P>beside the point, I stand by what I said and havent back peddled anything.  Someone said never to use SS, and Kiris said he was a fool to think that way (yet he says it much nicer then I do, because.. well im an ogre).  Kiris420 was the original responder to that person, I only responded to you, to clear up the misconception you had that he uses SS all the time and only SS.  But that wasnt good enough for you, you told me I was wrong about what he was saying and you understood what he meant better, even though I play with him nightly, and converse on ventrilo very often.  If you sit there and stop trying to argue every point to prove how "right" you are, and read each post, starting with his first, and go on down, you will see that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Even in his post of effective mana to heal spells, he has BoV on top.  But again, you argued with him that SS wasnt the best spell to use.. em.. ok.  You are arguing a point he never made.  Never once did he say SS was the best healing spell around.  Im curious what forums you are reading, because honestly it seems like you are in another world, and im confused as to what 3rd realm your pulling these "stances" from our posts, id like to go there some time, sounds fun to be totally oblivious to reality.</P> <P>Message Edited by Kiris on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:35 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kiris on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 PM</span>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>In those situations I don't debuff, I can't.  Those situations are almost always the first 20 sec of any big pull, where the mobs are pouring it on, they still have mana, and/or the chanter hasn't mezzed them yet.  Past there, I can "relax" and start using the other tools in the toolbox, but for those first 20 sec, I have the choice of 3 BoV's or 1 SS and the SS isn't even on my healing bar at that point.  SS is a pre-combat prep at best, and a pig when it comes to mana and time.  I would never, in any context, say it was a great spell, which is why I disagreed with your post.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Never in any context? You have stated several times that you use it in pre fight prep for big fights. If it wasn't great in at least that context, then why would you cast it?</P> <P> <HR> </P> <P>MacAllen wrote:</P> <P> Past there, I can "relax" and start using the other tools in the toolbox, but for those first 20 sec, I have the choice of 3 BoV's or 1 SS and the SS isn't even on my healing bar at that point.</P> <P> <HR> </P> <DIV>Is there some rule that states "He who cast SS must only cast SS in every 20 second timeframe, no other spells allowed."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can fit the SS in between a casts of BoV since, like you stated, BoV recharge is 6 seconds. Its not 3 BoV or 1 SS. Its 3 BoV + spamming direct heals or 3 BoV and 1 SS - which stacks and heals more of the damage being taken which leads to a lesser need for direct heal spammage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But like you said, the pulls are so hard that a tank will die in the 5 seconds if I chose to cast SS. So you must be casting a CH or Arch Heal. Since you have not posted any real numbers of what your heals I cannot accurately assess how much you heal for in that 5 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have clearly stated what the first 20 seconds of a fight looks like from my perspective several posts ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Stack SS and BoV before pull. Tank pulls. Cast Forced Sub. and another debuff depending on what type of mob when tank has aggro. Both spells fire off 4 times. BoV poofs, SS has 4 more 'charges'.  BoV has recharged, so I recast. SS poofs, but has recharged by now. Recast if necessary. Mix in a direct heal  or another BoV if necessary to finish the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But lets look a max healing potential in the first 20 seconds of a fight including a pre fight stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Including the pre fight stack(1100HP) which is not included in the first 20 seconds rule since the recharge timers are gone by the time the actual pull has arrived, this has the potential to heal 3000K(BoV, SS, BoV, BoV) HP toal in the first 20 seconds of a fight for 430 power. That is only stacking Reactives. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also have time to slip in 2 CH(which equals 376 HP BTW)  between the Consectutive BoV casts but I will not include that in my initial calculations to prove my point. I can also cast the direct heals between the first 2 BoV's of a fight and move the SS to between the 2nd and 3rd if that 5 seconds is so crucial. Interestingly, if on the initial pull my tank is hit so hard that the 376 HP I can heal in that 5 seconds would keep him from dying, then we are fighting stuff that is way to hard for one healer to handle and no combination of heals would allow us to live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not using that extra SS (which in the end is what we are talking about here, refreshing SS) My healing potential is as follows spamming CH between BoV since your basic assumption is that the 5 seconds spent casting [Removed for Content] refresh would lead to death.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prefight stack 1100HP. BoV, CH, CH, BoV, CH CH, BoV (1967 HP) for a total of 3067 in the first 20 seconds of a fight for 537 power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A whopping 67 more HP healed for 107 more mana spamming CH and BoV. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If using my first example, I slip in 2 CH cast between the last 2 consecutive BoV casts, my healing potential jumps to 3376 HP healed for 540 power. That is 309 more HP healed in that same 20 seconds for 3 more mana. One SS cast lets me squeeze 309 extra HP out of the same power spent in that 20 second begining of fight crunch time. If you do not think that makes SS a great spell to cast, then we just have a honest difference of opinion and we should just leave it at that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, we are talking about my character - Kiris lvl 23 INQ on blackburrow server . Your lvl 27 may be different, but there is no way you can look at the numbers and tell me that casting SS isn't great for me, and likely many other high teen to low 20's INQ.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe you could post your numbers and we could figure out what is most effective at your lvl. Maybe we could turn this into a constructive post where we combine our information and expirences to come up with effective healing strategies for the average(my charcter is not uber by any stretch) high teens to high 20's INQ. Or you can continue to take things out of context and we can bicker back and forth for a couple more pages.</DIV></DIV>

[ToesToe]

Wow, what a flame fest over some good ideas. I posted something simular along another thread that Kiris responded to. Before you attack the thought of stacking SS and BoV, you should give it a whirl yourself.I play a Templar, and have recently switched over to SS + BoV instead of a simply just a BoV for pulling. I'd be willing to make the following statement. Stacking SS and BoV is worth the mana cost versus pure BoV + Heals.I try to rely less on combat and arch healing as it's less efficient. Do you need to use them? Yes, you really don't want to leave your tank in the red. If you stack SS, will you need to use them less? Yes. I see a pretty big difference in the end result of my mana by stacking the two, and the speed of which we can kill mobs. That makes it more than worthwhile for me to use. And really at the end of the day that's what matters. Do these spells save me manna and let me kill tough mobs easier? Yes... Run the numbers, it isn't all that expensive to cast SS as noted earlier. Longer cast time or otherwise, the cycle time is long but that's why this is only one tool in a whole range of tools available. Abuse them all to your advantage.Toesa<p>Message Edited by ToesToes2 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 PM</span>

[ToesToe]

If your both SS and BoV were apt3, and if SS heal the same per hit, it should end up being more efficient than BoV. Any one with app3 for both tested?

[oz]

<DIV>I agree with MacAllen, using SS can get people killed, when an enemy hits the tank for 400-600 damage while your pickin your nose watching the casting time of SS, you just might be making a stupid mistake. BoV and CH can keep a tank at a stable health w/o tying up the inquis with recast times. SS is a group heal, therefore use it when more then one person needs hots</DIV>

[Solini]

<DIV>I want to comment on this discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh my god!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(IMO)</DIV> <DIV>MacAllen! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For your own good, learn to read! </DIV> <DIV>For your own good, learn not to be so ignorant and arrogant! </DIV> <DIV>For your own good, do not think you know everything the best.</DIV> <DIV>For your own good, learn to say "ok I misread / misunderstood" what you said. </DIV> <DIV>For your own good, learn to not always wanting to be right (and even keep on trying to do this while you know you are wrong).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure about your age, but it is quite obvious that you still have a lot to learn in communication... I sincerly wish you good luck, and hopefully you will do the wise thing here and think "hmm why would he say this? maybe he is right in some things" and simply learn from it, even when you are convinced what I am saying is just a flame to you (wich it is not, I was just amazed by how you communicate) you should still wonder yourself how it is possible that someone (me) does see / feel it this way (not just me, also both the Kiris'es and I am pretty sure more people did).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To get on topic, I fully understand the Kiris guys and agree with them. I am also convinced that MacAllen actually has the same tactic. You both seem to be very tactical players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best regards,</DIV> <DIV>Hagmor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gronker]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>I agree with MacAllen, using SS can get people killed, when an enemy hits the tank for 400-600 damage while your pickin your nose watching the casting time of SS, you just might be making a stupid mistake. BoV and CH can keep a tank at a stable health w/o tying up the inquis with recast times. SS is a group heal, therefore use it when more then one person needs hots</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This kind of post shows that many readers have completely missed the point.  Kiris, you are wasting your time educating people.  Those that understand will undoubtedly use your information wisely, and the others will always be missing 'something' in their arsenal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I'll, foolishly, try to quickly explain the big points using different words so that perhaps more people will understand (though really, I'd probably rather most clerics not know but currently am having a lapse in judgement).</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>- SS is a 'group spell' however it reactively heals "X" hits over the entire group, not some fixed number of hits per person (this I didn't know, and I didn't need the rest of the arguments to see the significance).</FONT></DIV> <DIV>- SS stacks with BoV (ok bells should really be going off here)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>- When you compare the hps/power SS is more efficient than BoV.  Do not change the wording here .. it is strictly hps/power.  NOT hp/time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Thats everything you need to piece together why SS is a kicking spell.  You will have to make your own decisions as to where its appropriate.  If you look at the above and say "yeah but the tank is being beat on for 150/hit and 500 special, SS can't keep up" you are totally missing the point.  If you see how this spell will result in your mana pool being larger at the end of the battle than if you don't use it under 95+% of the circumstances (100% if you are working white+ ^ ^ battles) then you've got it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit:  Forgot to add, Kiris, thanks for pointing this out to me.  I really though SS was a special-situation or "I've got too much mana and want to give video lag to everyone" spell.  :smileywink:</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gronker on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 AM</span>

[MacAll]

<DIV>I read quite well enough, and likely am one of the older folks on the board, however both points are irrelevant.  I'm one of the highest level Inquisitors on my server and have fought mobs from Graveyard to Zek, from tight guild-groups to the worst pickups imaginable, and this is after playing both a warrior and a cleric to max in EQ...not a n00b here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, SS stacks with BoV, which is why it makes a great lead-off combo BEFORE combat.</DIV> <DIV>You who are taking time out of the equation and saying SS is better than BoV in that context are correct...in that context.  Unfortunately, time is in my context because time is a factor, and when you include time, SS sucks.  If things are tight, I don't want to be stuck casting for 5 sec.  If things aren't tight, I STILL don't want to be casting a spell for 5 sec...I can cast 2 debuffs or melee hit 3x during those 5 sex.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I have time on my side so you guys play with your SS in your dungeons and, when you get to Varsoon, RE, and Cauldron and get booted from your groups for letting folks die because you insist on using what you consider to be the most efficient spell, you'll be back here backpedelling and I'll just nod.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It matters not to me, I know that I always have more mana than the SS-wielding Templars after doing more healing, and am more flexible than them because I don't have my backside on a fluffed pillow out of the combat but am in the fight, dishing out damage and taking the same risks the tanks do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and there were no flames here, this was one guy saying something arrogant and extreme, then spending 4 posts explaining what he said was not what he meant <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> oz2y wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree with MacAllen, using SS can get people killed, when an enemy hits the tank for 400-600 damage while your pickin your nose watching the casting time of SS, you just might be making a stupid mistake. BoV and CH can keep a tank at a stable health w/o tying up the inquis with recast times. SS is a group heal, therefore use it when more then one person needs hots</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I am not talking about 'can' and 'might'.</P> <P>I actually do. Every night. If you think I am simply lying, that is your opinion and there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.</P> <P>With reactives stacked, the enemy isn't hitting the tank for 400-600. Its hitting for 200-400 becasue the reactives will heal 200 a hit. </P> <P>And who is tied up with recast times? Believe it or not, while the SS recast timer is ticking away, I am able to cast another BoV, or a direct heal. Again, another subscriber to the imaginery "He who cast SS must only cast SS in every 20 second timeframe, no other spells allowed" rule.</P> <P>And SS is not a group heal. It is a 8 charge reactive healing proc that fires on whoever gets hit in the group. This can be all 6 group members, or it can be one MT. Regardless, it will fire off 8 times no matter what. </P> <P>Once again, the 5 second casting time comes up. The most I can direct heal in that 5 seconds is 376 with my spell upgrades and lvl. That is 2 casts of CH. My point to that is - If I am at the point in battle where in 5 seconds a mob doing less than 376 damge will kill my tank, then I am fighting stuff that is way to much for 'one' healer to handle. </P> <P>What about the next 5 seconds then? Your are talking about a situation on the edge of a group wipe where only spamming direct heals is the hope. What I try to do by keeping reactives stacked is never getting into that situation in the first place.</P> <P>And all of this is from the perspective of a one healer group fighting the bleeding edge of what a one healer group can handle. Being the only healer in a group doing easy blue or white quest mobs or something, I consider it a failure if I actually have to use a mana inefficient direct heal.</P> <P>If you look at the SS/BoV stack from a 2 healer(one cleric - one shammy/druid) group perspective it becomes even more attractive as a power effiencent way to heal for a cleric. In 2 healer groups, I will stack reactives and debuff and tell the other healer to use there skills(debuff/DD/DOT) and handle backup direct heals/regen/ward. On all but the craziest situations where we over pull and have adds, I am at 50 - 60% power and the other healer is at 80% because he barely needed to heal, but he has a huge reserve of power left in case **mods 4 teh win!!1!** does hit the fan.</P> <P>If you look at the SS/BoV stack from a 2 cleric group situation, then you would have to be in a severe state of denial to not use it as only one Cleric's BoV would work, thus wasting a unique core ability of one of the clerics. One cleric casts BoV, the other casts SS. After that you keep them refreshed while using your other abilities. My guild has 6 healers, all of us are INQ. We do this all of the time.</P> <P> </P>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris420 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>With reactives stacked, the enemy isn't hitting the tank for 400-600. Its hitting for 200-400 becasue the reactives will heal 200 a hit. </P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The tank is still being hit for that much, and it is possible for the tank to die if they take 600 and your reactives heals for 200.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P> And who is tied up with recast times? Believe it or not, while the SS recast timer is ticking away, I am able to cast another BoV, or a direct heal. Again, another subscriber to the imaginery "He who cast SS must only cast SS in every 20 second timeframe, no other spells allowed" rule.</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are tied up with casting times.  You spend 5 sec casting a spell and doing nothing else.  For 5 sec, you are not available for anything else.  I'm casting for 2 sec then dishing out melee dmg, or casting a debuff that reduces the dmg my tank takes, or increase the dmg we all do, in those same 5 sec.  Time is a factor.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Once again, the 5 second casting time comes up. The most I can direct heal in that 5 seconds is 376 with my spell upgrades and lvl. That is 2 casts of CH. My point to that is - If I am at the point in battle where in 5 seconds a mob doing less than 376 damge will kill my tank, then I am fighting stuff that is way to much for 'one' healer to handle. </P> <HR> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You can drop 2 BoV's in 6 sec and do 50% more healing than SS.  And I'll let my tanks and groups know that you think we're doing too much for one healer to handle...funny, I'm handling it very well, thank you...by myself <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Last night, we lost the tank in a really ugly pull on a named we should have waiting on, but we were impatient.  We were out of debt in 4 more pulls and had a fantastic time gloating over the named's drop <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  A "civilized" group wouldn't have done that, but then a "civilized" group wouldn't have our tank's new gloves, either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P> What about the next 5 seconds then? Your are talking about a situation on the edge of a group wipe where only spamming direct heals is the hope. What I try to do by keeping reactives stacked is never getting into that situation in the first place.</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think I'm seeing why you are not understanding me...if you're not on the edge of a group wipe on every pull, why bother playing?  Anyone can sit and pull greens while your fanny is on a soft pillow, and I'm sure that, in your context, SS is the best spell:</P> <P>1. cast SS<BR>2. Sip Tea<BR>3. Chat with Buffy the Druid over crumpets</P> <P>Forgive me, I work for a living.  There is a reason we wear plate, and it's not because the form-fitting stuff makes our butts look fantastic.  If you're sitting on the sidelines then you are depriving your group of 2-300hp of melee dmg at the very least, and that can literally make the difference in winning and losing, plus shortens the battle and increases your remaining mana, which in turn allows the tanks to pull faster and everyone get more exps.  And here's a news flash in case you didn't know...I meditate EXACTLY as much mana swinging my maces as you do sitting on your pillow, so there is absolutely NO value in sitting on the side lines.</P> <P>"Oh, but I might get agro and the cleric can die!"</P> <P>Well, Mr "I never get agro -ever-", if you get agro it means one of the casters hasn't, and you've got the AC and HP to handle a few hits until the tank re-acquires it.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>And all of this is from the perspective of a one healer group fighting the bleeding edge of what a one healer group can handle. Being the only healer in a group doing easy blue or white quest mobs or something, I consider it a failure if I actually have to use a mana inefficient direct heal.</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So YOU're the reason people seem to want 2 healers in a group.  My groups have 1 healer, 1 main tank, and either 4 dps, or 3 and a chanter.  We pull so fast the dps is getting another mob before we're finished with the first, and I'm sitting perpetually at 40% mana for 6 hours straight, with downtime every 4-5 pulls.  Why on EARTH would we want 2 healers in a group?  May be a shaman or druid as a backup, but even then I see that as a waste...an assassin or monk can kill a mob so fast that a backup isn't needed.</P> <P>But that's why you and I are disagreeing.  I'm in the thick of the fight, taking the risks and taking the fight to the mob, in groups that push the envelope.  You and your "backup healer" are sitting on pillows on the sidelines, sipping tea and playing pinochle while your tanks go fetch mobs and loot for you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Well, we both pay the same to play the game, and as long as we both enjoy what we're doing, then no harm is done.  I personally would never group with a pampered priss who sat on the sidelines, "never gets agro", and seems afraid to get dirty...but that's just me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>I read quite well enough, and likely am one of the older folks on the board, however both points are irrelevant.  I'm one of the highest level Inquisitors on my server and have fought mobs from Graveyard to Zek, from tight guild-groups to the worst pickups imaginable, and this is after playing both a warrior and a cleric to max in EQ...not a n00b here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, SS stacks with BoV, which is why it makes a great lead-off combo BEFORE combat.</DIV> <DIV>You who are taking time out of the equation and saying SS is better than BoV in that context are correct...in that context.  Unfortunately, time is in my context because time is a factor, and when you include time, SS sucks.  If things are tight, I don't want to be stuck casting for 5 sec.  If things aren't tight, I STILL don't want to be casting a spell for 5 sec...I can cast 2 debuffs or melee hit 3x during those 5 sex.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I have time on my side so you guys play with your SS in your dungeons and, when you get to Varsoon, RE, and Cauldron and get booted from your groups for letting folks die because you insist on using what you consider to be the most efficient spell, you'll be back here backpedelling and I'll just nod.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It matters not to me, I know that I always have more mana than the SS-wielding Templars after doing more healing, and am more flexible than them because I don't have my backside on a fluffed pillow out of the combat but am in the fight, dishing out damage and taking the same risks the tanks do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and there were no flames here, this was one guy saying something arrogant and extreme, then spending 4 posts explaining what he said was not what he meant <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I have actually posted numbers for my lvl 23 cleric. </P> <P>I have asked you to post your numbers so we can turn this into a constructive post on healing strategies from the teens thru the 20's. The invitation is still open. I have already conceded that you may have a point at your lvl. But since you can't simply take my word for what is working for me at my lvl, I will not simply take your word that using SS won't work at your lvl.(a whopping 4 lvls higher). So, again post some real numbers and lets make this constructive.</P> <P>To address some points in your post.</P> <P>"I can cast 2 debuffs or melee hit 3x during those 5 sex."</P> <P>3 melee hits? You honestly consider the damage you do from 3 pathetic melee hits is a better use of your time then using the second most mana efficienct spell in your arsenal (again it might not be but - post your numbers and prove it!) Debuffs, yes, but using a SS is not a replacement for casting debuffs, it is trying to replace having to cast 2 direct heals at some point in the fight.</P> <P>Earlier you said - " I would never, in any context, say it was a great spell, which is why I disagreed with your post."</P> <P>Now you say - "Yes, SS stacks with BoV, which is why it makes a great lead-off combo BEFORE combat."</P> <P>So which is it. Never a great spell? or Great before a pull? Yes, I can do what you do and pull a couple quotes and take them out of context. Its not that hard and is actually a fairly weak tactic that I try to avoid but this one good to pass up.</P> <P>But anyways, I'm done posting in this thread. If you want to post your actual heal amounts for your spells at 27 and turn this into a constructive post, I will post again. If you post your numbers and definitivelly prove that casting [Removed for Content] is a waste compared to casting 2 direct heals at some point during a fight, I will come back and admit that my way of healing in the high teens and low 20's is flat out wrong at your lvl. My self esteem is not determined by being right in an EQ2 class forum. I have no problem being wrong. But you simply saying "you'll see" isnt cutting it for me.</P>

[Gronker]

Sorry, had to reply to arrogant post against my earlier intentions:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>I read quite well enough, and likely am one of the older folks on the board, however both points are irrelevant.  I'm one of the highest level Inquisitors on my server and have fought mobs from Graveyard to Zek, from tight guild-groups to the worst pickups imaginable, and this is after playing both a warrior and a cleric to max in EQ...not a n00b here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Congratulations.  I hope you aren't implying "everyone listen to me because I'm l33t" "my word is law" etc.  I'll assume not and you are just trying to provide credentials.  More on this later.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>You who are taking time out of the equation and saying SS is better than BoV in that context are correct...in that context.  Unfortunately, time is in my context because time is a factor, and when you include time, SS sucks.  If things are tight, I don't want to be stuck casting for 5 sec.  If things aren't tight, I STILL don't want to be casting a spell for 5 sec...I can cast 2 debuffs or melee hit 3x during those 5 sex. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Then do so (cast debuffs and melee).  SS being the most efficient heal is not preventing you from casting/doing anything else.  Its currently on the party, you can cast whatever you want.  When it runs out you have the option of casting it again if you dont have anything more useful to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by the way, you are wrong "time is a factor ... SS sucks".  When you factor in time SS is still better than nothing because given some number of attacks/second, it is healing for some rate/second.  Stacking with BoV, "stacking" with regular insta-heals.  So if its on you are healing at more hp/sec than if its off.  There is no way to argue this point.  You are worrying too much about "5 seconds cast time".  Assume you put it on before the fight, and have options to put it on during.  Note the word option there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has been shown that SS, at the same spell tier as BoV, heals more efficiently per unit power.  Thus, assuming SS is completely used up, you have just used your most efficient heal/power.  Assuming X hps needed to be healed during the encounter, the one who cast SS now has more power than the one who didn't.  Another point that there is no possible arguement about:  use more efficient heals, you have more power. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As has been said, the idea here isn't "hey, SS is the most efficient heal, I just need one spell and I'll spam it".  You need to keep your group alive so amazingly enough, you'll have to cast other spells - including debuffs.  And sometimes, when SS expires, the last thing you'll be thinking is "lets spend 5 seconds casting it" because your tank is in the orange and its about time for a special attack, or those adds are messing up the chanter, or ... whatever the situation is.  Yes you are allowed to cast other spells even though SS is the most efficient power-wise.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>However, I have time on my side so you guys play with your SS in your dungeons and, when you get to Varsoon, RE, and Cauldron and get booted from your groups for letting folks die because you insist on using what you consider to be the most efficient spell, you'll be back here backpedelling and I'll just nod.</DIV> <DIV>It matters not to me, I know that I always have more mana than the SS-wielding Templars after doing more healing, and am more flexible than them because I don't have my backside on a fluffed pillow out of the combat but am in the fight, dishing out damage and taking the same risks the tanks do.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You can avoid rhetoric, does nothing to promote your arguements but rather detracts and inflames.  In fact it actually makes you look like you are posturing for the sake of such, rather than being flexible.  Its great that you are fighting the hard fights, out there at the head of the pack.  Don't think everyone else doesn't know what they are doing, or perhaps know something you don't, because chances are you are mistaken.<BR></DIV>

[Kiris420]

<DIV>Ok I lied, this is my last post :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You try to compare the groups we are in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>According to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in some [Removed for Content] group pulling greens sitting on my **mods 4 teh win!!1!** wasting resources and time. You are in these nice groups chain pulling tough mobs for awesome exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You stated earlier you took a week off of work to hit the game hardcore. quote - "I took a week off of work to hit the game hard, and ended up outlevelling my guild."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets add it up, You taking a week off of work and being in these awesome groups - with your perfection compared to me being a [Removed for Content] healer pulling greens has netted you a whopping 4 lvls over me.  Just looking at this alone convinces me that I am wrong. You took a week off of work to out lvl a [Removed for Content] by 4 lvls.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV> <DIV>Bugger, typed up a long post and lost it somehow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll try to get my numbers for you, but I'm either in-game or at work, and if I have access to EQ I'm playing it.  I'll try to snag them at lunch.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR>  3 melee hits? You honestly consider the damage you do from 3 pathetic melee hits is a better use of your time then using the second most mana efficienct spell in your arsenal (again it might not be but - post your numbers and prove it!) Debuffs, yes, but using a SS is not a replacement for casting debuffs, it is trying to replace having to cast 2 direct heals at some point in the fight.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I know my melee does not compare to that of a tank, but between casts of spells I get 1-2 hits in and, in an encounter, that can add up to 2-300hp, which is a significant amount, and certainly more that a cleric who sits on the sidelines adds.  A cleric who sits on the sideline is adding nothing, not even faster mana regeneration.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> Earlier you said - " I would never, in any context, say it was a great spell, which is why I disagreed with your post."<BR>Now you say - "Yes, SS stacks with BoV, which is why it makes a great lead-off combo BEFORE combat."</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before you entered into this debate, I believe I said that SS was great before combat.  The statement of yours I disagreed with was that SS was a "great spell", unqualified, which is untrue.  It is a very specialized spell that has 2 spots where it's useful, not a "great" spell overall.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> And by the way, you are wrong "time is a factor ... SS sucks".  When you factor in time SS is still better than nothing because given some number of attacks/second, it is healing for some rate/second.  Stacking with BoV, "stacking" with regular insta-heals.  So if its on you are healing at more hp/sec than if its off.  There is no way to argue this point.  You are worrying too much about "5 seconds cast time".  Assume you put it on before the fight, and have options to put it on during.  Note the word option there. <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OK, this is patently ridiculous.  Of course SS is better than nothing.  I don't think anyone here has said doing nothing was better than casting SS.  If you've never been in a fight where your BoV or SS is depleted within 1 sec of your casting it, with a massive + over your tank's head, you will not understand what I'm talking about.  If you arbitrarily decide to exclude an axis so your numbers look better, that's totally up to you but time is a factor and excluding it is simply delusional.</P> <P>The problem here is that I've played the way you play, but you've not played the way I've played, so you have no frame of reference. </P> <P>"Mithter Troll, I'll be your Inquithitor for the evening, but I mutht inthitht upon a backup healer, ath I could not pothibly keep you healed by mythelf."  I'd like to say that any tank I'd say that too would stuff me in my helmet, but it would never get that far.  If I ever felt the need to say that, I'd simply slit my own wrist...and you can imagine how hard that would be with a mace.</P> <P>You can have your backup healer, sit on your pillow, and pull your blues and greens.  I've been pulling orange^^ mobs since 12th lvl and have done EXTENSIVE testing with all of the healing spells, along with many of my peer healers, Inquis and Templar, and we all choose to look at the entire picture, not just the data we want.  And you don't need my numbers for this, look at the ones posted here...if you include all 3 axes, SS is one of the least efficient spells in the game.</P> <P>I'm not selling Amway here, I'm not trying to change the way you play the game.  Can you go along merrily with your play style, using SS and sitting on the sidelines?  Absolutely, and I'm sure your tanks love you and your pretty pants.  My disagreement stems from the general statements that SS is a "great spell" and it is "most efficient", because those states are patently false with the data presented here.</P> <P>Let me clarify here, so there's no confusion among the aristocrats:<BR>1. I am not saying anyone's play style is better/worse.  I don't like your playstyle, but that is my opinion.<BR>2. I'm not saying SS is a garbage spell.  It has 2 very specific uses at which it is the best spell for those situations.<BR>3. Sitting on the sidelines adds NOTHING to the encounter, and costs the group in opportunity damage.  This is an unarguable fact.<BR>4. Time is a factor, and always will be.  Simply because you have more of it to waste does not make it insigifnicant.  Excluding data so your numbers appear better makes this entire debate pointless.</P> <P>So, in summary, the correct statement that should have been made long ago is "SS is a great spell in the way I play, but your mileage may vary."</P></DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris420 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>With reactives stacked, the enemy isn't hitting the tank for 400-600. Its hitting for 200-400 becasue the reactives will heal 200 a hit. </P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The tank is still being hit for that much, and it is possible for the tank to die if they take 600 and your reactives heals for 200.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>again someone needs to ring the clue-phone for you.  If the tank is going to die from a 400hp hit, then he isnt at the hp level one would cast a 5 second reactive heal like SS is he?  I mean come on man, give me a break.  You sit here claiming how smart, great at the game, old, and well versed in EQ you are, yet you cant even figure out simple reading comprehension?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P> And who is tied up with recast times? Believe it or not, while the SS recast timer is ticking away, I am able to cast another BoV, or a direct heal. Again, another subscriber to the imaginery "He who cast SS must only cast SS in every 20 second timeframe, no other spells allowed" rule.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are tied up with casting times.  You spend 5 sec casting a spell and doing nothing else.  For 5 sec, you are not available for anything else.  I'm casting for 2 sec then dishing out melee dmg, or casting a debuff that reduces the dmg my tank takes, or increase the dmg we all do, in those same 5 sec.  Time is a factor.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>No offense man, but your 3 seconds of melee damage which you well net at MOST 2 swings of 12-15 with are not more effecient for the group then a reactive heal that will give you time to nuke, or a debuff, why?  Because you arent wasting that time spam casting a DD heal like CH or arch.  If you want to nit pick, at least try to nit pick something that is going to benefit the group more then a combined total of 22dps.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> </P> <P></P> <P>Once again, the 5 second casting time comes up. The most I can direct heal in that 5 seconds is 376 with my spell upgrades and lvl. That is 2 casts of CH. My point to that is - If I am at the point in battle where in 5 seconds a mob doing less than 376 damge will kill my tank, then I am fighting stuff that is way to much for 'one' healer to handle. </P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You can drop 2 BoV's in 6 sec and do 50% more healing than SS.  And I'll let my tanks and groups know that you think we're doing too much for one healer to handle...funny, I'm handling it very well, thank you...by myself <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Last night, we lost the tank in a really ugly pull on a named we should have waiting on, but we were impatient.  We were out of debt in 4 more pulls and had a fantastic time gloating over the named's drop <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  A "civilized" group wouldn't have done that, but then a "civilized" group wouldn't have our tank's new gloves, either <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>And?  Last night we did Thex at our level which is orange Single tiered with 4-5 orange friends, plus a group of 3 yellow single tiered bats.  Guess what.... no one died...  We didnt lose the tank.. why?  Because the reactives gave Chris (Kiris420) enough time to also get in a couple of CH's with my HP never leaving 50% or below.  But then again, you are posting jibberish here, no real numbers, no real facts just you, your word, and throwing some insults in for good measure because in your "old age but immature mind" you think that will help your arguement.  Well it doesnt, just makes you look like a person who has no social skills.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P> What about the next 5 seconds then? Your are talking about a situation on the edge of a group wipe where only spamming direct heals is the hope. What I try to do by keeping reactives stacked is never getting into that situation in the first place.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think I'm seeing why you are not understanding me...if you're not on the edge of a group wipe on every pull, why bother playing?  Anyone can sit and pull greens while your fanny is on a soft pillow, and I'm sure that, in your context, SS is the best spell:</P> <P>1. cast SS<BR>2. Sip Tea<BR>3. Chat with Buffy the Druid over crumpets</P> <P>Forgive me, I work for a living.  There is a reason we wear plate, and it's not because the form-fitting stuff makes our butts look fantastic.  If you're sitting on the sidelines then you are depriving your group of 2-300hp of melee dmg at the very least, and that can literally make the difference in winning and losing, plus shortens the battle and increases your remaining mana, which in turn allows the tanks to pull faster and everyone get more exps.  And here's a news flash in case you didn't know...I meditate EXACTLY as much mana swinging my maces as you do sitting on your pillow, so there is absolutely NO value in sitting on the side lines.</P> <P>"Oh, but I might get agro and the cleric can die!"</P> <P>Well, Mr "I never get agro -ever-", if you get agro it means one of the casters hasn't, and you've got the AC and HP to handle a few hits until the tank re-acquires it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>So let me get this strait, for you, Putting the group on the edge of death but making sure you get aggro so you can prove how much of a "man" you are in a video game, is the difference between Kiris and you?  Good, keep that thought process going bud, im sure its working for you, matter of fact its working so well for you that you have outleveled a couple of casual gamers by 4 levels, yet still those casual gamers have more Contributed guild status points and im going to guess since I didnt check, but prolly more quests too.  Sounds like your way is the way to go... *cough*</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>btw since reading comprehension doesnt seem to be your thing, im going to spell it out for you.  I almost spit coffee through my nose when I read your post?  Why because it shows your ignorance and inability to post facts to back up any one of your numerous false statements.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>And all of this is from the perspective of a one healer group fighting the bleeding edge of what a one healer group can handle. Being the only healer in a group doing easy blue or white quest mobs or something, I consider it a failure if I actually have to use a mana inefficient direct heal.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So YOU're the reason people seem to want 2 healers in a group.  My groups have 1 healer, 1 main tank, and either 4 dps, or 3 and a chanter.  We pull so fast the dps is getting another mob before we're finished with the first, and I'm sitting perpetually at 40% mana for 6 hours straight, with downtime every 4-5 pulls.  Why on EARTH would we want 2 healers in a group?  May be a shaman or druid as a backup, but even then I see that as a waste...an assassin or monk can kill a mob so fast that a backup isn't needed.</P> <P>But that's why you and I are disagreeing.  I'm in the thick of the fight, taking the risks and taking the fight to the mob, in groups that push the envelope.  You and your "backup healer" are sitting on pillows on the sidelines, sipping tea and playing pinochle while your tanks go fetch mobs and loot for you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Well, we both pay the same to play the game, and as long as we both enjoy what we're doing, then no harm is done.  I personally would never group with a pampered priss who sat on the sidelines, "never gets agro", and seems afraid to get dirty...but that's just me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Actually no, the reason 99% of the time we have 2 healers in the group is because we dont turn people down who are in our level range.  Our guild make up has more Inq. then any class, and because of that we often roll with multiple clerics, hell sometimes even 3 because we dont want them sitting on their butts waiting for a group when we have a spot open.  Im glad that your "Holy trinity" group make up from EQ1 has netted you those 4 extra levels, because man, I was begining to think you actually knew what you were talking about (just kidding, Ive known from the start your just here to argue and nothing else)  For you to throw out a generalization of Kiris and our healers sitting on the sideline, to again try to prove that your a "Manly Man" and they are not, is laughable at best, the bottom line is ive told you numerous times through this thread that doing the healing the way he does it means that he can nuke, and melee, and guess what, still have more then enough mana after the fight for me to keep pulling.  But you choose to ignore the facts because it isnt beneficial to your point.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Again, post your numbers.  Post your spell levels, what they heal for, and their cast times.  Try to post some facts with your rhetoric and name calling, and maybe the people of these boards who read your dribble wont thnk of you as nothing more then a pompous know it all who really may be the oldest guy on the board, but acts like the youngest because he cant prove a point with out trying to put others down.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>they have a word for that my friend, its called a complex.  Do you drive a 4x4 F350 with 10 inch lift and 35 inch tires too?  Maybe you are trying to compensate for something here.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kir]

<P><BR> dbl post.</P><p>Message Edited by Kiris on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[Decimat]

<DIV>I don't see the problem with having a backup healer.  I don't have one so I can "Sit on my pillow", but I have one because having debt sucks.  With 2 healers, you are far more flexible in what you can take, rather than having a single healer.  Sure, with one healer, you can pull double up oranges all day assuming you have a tank with a respectable amount of AC, but you won't get very far with adds(without a mezzer) and sometimes you just run out of power and then you are screwed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whenever I go into Varsoon, 2 healers will let you do anything in that place just about.  You can take clay guardians fine with 1 healer and lots of damage, but there are times when you HAVE to take 2 clay guardians at once, and you wouldn't have survived except you had that second healer with you.  You seem to equate having 2 healers as being lazy.  I equate having 2 healers as, lets see how deep we can get in this place before we get our [Removed for Content] handed to us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, 1 healer is all nice and fine in a controlled environment pulling 1 mob, or one group of mobs to you at a time.  I don't know about you, but I like to have fun and explore.  And the best and safest way to do that is to bring 2 healers.  You can't take 8 reds at a time with one healer, or a double up red, it just isn't going to work.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having a second healer allows the Inquisitor to get off all 5-7 debuffs off the first 20 seconds of combat, cause otherwise you would have had to fit heals in there for the tank who is getting beat on while you lay down all your debuffs.  The sooner the debuffs come out, the more effective they are.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if you are taking the mobs fine, and only 1 healer is needed to keep the tank up and running, healers can turn into DD real quick.  Start laying down the DoTs and nukes, and you can make up for the damage on the easier encounters.  As soon as you get an add, or a named or something, you have the healing power you need to handle it.  </DIV>

[Gronker]

I really hate being drawn into arguements with trolls but here goes ...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <HR>  3 melee hits? You honestly consider the damage you do from 3 pathetic melee hits is a better use of your time then using the second most mana efficienct spell in your arsenal (again it might not be but - post your numbers and prove it!) Debuffs, yes, but using a SS is not a replacement for casting debuffs, it is trying to replace having to cast 2 direct heals at some point in the fight. <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>I know my melee does not compare to that of a tank, but between casts of spells I get 1-2 hits in and, in an encounter, that can add up to 2-300hp, which is a significant amount, and certainly more that a cleric who sits on the sidelines adds.  A cleric who sits on the sideline is adding nothing, not even faster mana regeneration. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are telling everyone you'd rather melee for 3 swings (for .. umm ... 30 damage total maybe?) than cast a 600+ point heal-over-'time' as a better use of your time for these "super-extreme down-to-the-wire" battles that you claim you bother with.  Anything less is a boring waste of time.  I'm going just going to say, with the limited <30 experience I've had that this is a really bad strategy.  Instead, you'll cast your 'insta heals', using more mana for the same amount of health, and do basically nothing in melee damage.  The tank is doing 5+ times more damage than you, and the mages and scouts are doing more than that.  Good thing you are swingin it'll make all the difference.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Earlier you said - " I would never, in any context, say it was a great spell, which is why I disagreed with your post."<BR>Now you say - "Yes, SS stacks with BoV, which is why it makes a great lead-off combo BEFORE combat."</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before you entered into this debate, I believe I said that SS was great before combat.  The statement of yours I disagreed with was that SS was a "great spell", unqualified, which is untrue.  It is a very specialized spell that has 2 spots where it's useful, not a "great" spell overall.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Actually if you look at that quote you said that "I would never in any context say it was a great spell" so, with the quote right there you are lying.  Amazing.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>The problem here is that I've played the way you play, but you've not played the way I've played, so you have no frame of reference. </P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are making assumptions on the way I play.  You must, of course, play much more intensely than anyone else possibly could and therefore your opinion is much more valid.  Again, please stop the posturing - this is not an arguement, and if we don't tag along in your groups or look over your shoulder while you play this is meaningless.  If I told you I was a 35 inquis and was a 50 inquis in beta would it make my story any stronger?  No.  And certainly not if I'm wrong.  I doubt you are doing more than fighting yellow/orange group++ stuff constantly.  Especially if you claim as only healer, you sit at constant health with puller bringing new mob to camp before first is taken out.  I know I can't since I (and the rest of the group) need power regen breaks.  Maybe its because I'm healing instead of meleeing?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> I'm not selling Amway here, I'm not trying to change the way you play the game.  Can you go along merrily with your play style, using SS and sitting on the sidelines?  Absolutely, and I'm sure your tanks love you and your pretty pants.  My disagreement stems from the general statements that SS is a "great spell" and it is "most efficient", because those states are patently false with the data presented here. <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think you are argueing with the wrong people.  Noone here is using SS and sitting on the sidelines, maybe confusing threads?</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Let me clarify here, so there's no confusion among the aristocrats:<BR>1. I am not saying anyone's play style is better/worse.  I don't like your playstyle, but that is my opinion.<BR>2. I'm not saying SS is a garbage spell.  It has 2 very specific uses at which it is the best spell for those situations.<BR>3. Sitting on the sidelines adds NOTHING to the encounter, and costs the group in opportunity damage.  This is an unarguable fact.<BR>4. Time is a factor, and always will be.  Simply because you have more of it to waste does not make it insigifnicant.  Excluding data so your numbers appear better makes this entire debate pointless. <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1. Useless rhetoric.  Not part of any arguement here.</P> <P>2. Irrelevant since that isn't the point in contention.  The point is SS is a great spell, not if its a crappy one.  Btw, imo if you compare meleeing instead of SS favorably when you have to heal those points eventually, I'd say you implicitly thought SS was a garbage spell since priest melee is near-garbage.</P> <P>3. Correct.  This is obvious, and noone is argueing this point.</P> <P>4. I'm sorry I cannot understand your wording here nor the point you are trying to make.  You don't have to explain I'm sure everyone agrees on this (time-related stuff).</P> <P>So, in summary, your 4 points were fluff.  But thanks for sharing.</P> <P>I'm left wondering why you are so vehemently argueing the point that SS is a great spell?  From most of your posts you are doing the "I dont want to lose face, so I'll blind them with my l33t level" thing rather than actually argueing.  Where is your data?  Where is your counter arguements?  All I see is "when you get there, you'll know" "thats cuz you don't play like I do" etc rather than actual information.</P> <P>I have yet to see an argument against "SS is the most efficient hp/power and stacks with BoV, thus it is a great spell".  I can't even think of a legitimate arguement against that statement, nor have I seen one, yet there is still dissention.  :smileysurprised:</P>

[MacAll]

<DIV>If you're calling me l33t, and I'm calling you l33t, how can we both be l33t?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This argument is the same as an adult arguing with a child.  The child has never been an adult, yet insist the adult does not know what they're talking about.  There is no common frame of reference, all of the arguments are subjective, and no one's looking at the data posted here.  I don't need to post my own data, the data posted here bears out my argument.  Being an adult (or higher level in this context) isn't better or worse, it simply is a different frame of reference, but it does give the benefit of 2 points of view.  The child takes shots at the adult without having a clue what they're talking about.  I've got 3 kids, and 2 adopted ones over 20, I know how this dynamic quite well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all agree that leading into a fight with SS BoV is effective, especially if you do it before the tank engages so you get the benefit of regen before you actually engage.  I think that point is fairly settled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not understand your insistance upon sitting on the sidelines and belittling the damage I do in melee when you do 0.  Sitting on the sidelines does nothing, standing in the melee to do your casting adds something...a small something, but still something that could make a difference, especially in a longer fight.  I don't hit a lot, nor for a lot of dmg individually, nor do I hit more than once between casts as the fights I'm in tend to be fast-paced, but I'm doing dmg, which means the mob is dying faster than they would if I were sitting and doing nothing but knitting.  If sitting gave me mana faster, I'd see your point but it doesn't and I don't.  *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, the point of contention here is that you folks do not agree that time is a factor.  Our play experiences are different, that much is obvious.  You don't have combats where seconds count and can leisurely stroll through...which is the only assumption I can make if time is not a factor for you.  If time is a factor, then you'd do hp/mana/time and see that SS is on the bottom of that graph, so obviously you have all the time in the world, which is great if that's what you like.  In addition to the time consideration, the amount of dmg healed by SS is a relatively significant factor for me.  I don't know if you've done much experimentation with it, but you do realize that the "shots" reactives give are 1:1 with hits received by the tank, yes?  So, if the tank receives a hit for 87, then Kris's SS heals for 87.  If it's for 107, it heas for 87.  307?  87.  It doesn't fire off multiple shots to compensate for greater damage, it just heals up to 87/shot, and does 8 shots.  Oh, and I don't believe it does 696 on every cast either, I believe it does 8 shots, and if all those shots are for 10 hp then it healed for 80, but I'm not positive about that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the fights I've been in recently, my tanks are regularly being hammered for 6-700/hit, with specials up to 1200, and 87 just doesn't cut it.  Granted. the 138 of my BoV isn't much better, but I can get BoV off faster and compensate for the extra damage with CH's ad hoc, though I do avoid direct heals as much as possible and only use them as a buffer to allow me to get my reactive cast.  Templars may get a replacement for SS that's "better", but at 27 I just got my BoV replacement which, at app1, is far worse than both BoV and SS as far as I've seen, but I've not done a lot of testing with it yet.  It may last longer, I need to test that tonight...I just got the spell yesterday and have cast it twice, I I'm still reserving judgment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't ever ask for a backup healer and feel it to be more than a little arrogant to assume that my class is so important to the group that I feel there should be 2 of us.  A group with 1 tank, 1 cleric, and 4 dps is doing 25% more damage, drops mobs 25% faster, the tank takes 25% less damage, etc.  Having a 2nd healer is nice, and allows me to relax a bit, but then if I wanted to relax, I'd go to bed.  I enjoy the edge of being the only healer and having a monk or assassin fill the spot of that backup.  Combat moves quicker and exps roll in faster, in my experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 copper.</DIV>

[NitroJagZ]

<DIV>This thread is quite entertaining.  It has inspired me to get out of my healing routine and try something different.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never really used SS like many of the posters have suggested.  I'm defently to experiment and come to my own conclusion on this subject.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I know from experience is, if you are melee'n and several orange++ mobs aggro on you and pull of a riposte or heroic opportunity, your dead.  The tank can taunt them off you.. but multiple mobs just need to hit you once to kill you.  Melee'n without the proper aggro buildup - against oranges is asking for death.</DIV>

[ToesToe]

<DIV>You guys arguing just to be right at this point because you're both saying roughly the same thing. And let us not through out the my char is bigger than your char. We're all newbs, and everyone here is a probably a EQ1 and MMO vet.  - No need for handwaving.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 - We all rather just have 1 healer in the group, two is safer, but i'd rather have DPS / Bard / Chanter than another heal if i can help it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 -  SS lets us be more man efficient, too bad the cast time and cycle time is long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3 - If you're find using only using BoV, Mark of Pawns and a single combat heal is fine.  That's great, the mobs aren't hitting your tank so hard that BoV can't keep up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4- There are times with BoV, Mark and a CH doesn't cut it because your tank is being hit too hard.  pull out your other stackable re-active rather than chain cast heals. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3 - None of us are stupid enough to cast SS when the tanks about to go down. We'll use a arch or a combat heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4 - Using BoV + SS can give you the time to debuff and recast SS instead of having to spam combat and Arch.  And we've all established that SS is more efficent than both Combat and Arch at this point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5 - You can make decisions on your feet, there's been more than enough times that i've broken various spells, arch to combat or SS to a quick combat in order to react to real world effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The facts are that SS is mana efficient. End of argument. If you can find time to cast it, fantastic! ie Before the pull when it doesn't matter.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you cast it mid-fight?  Well perhaps now that you've stacked at before the pull you have time to , if you didn't well perhaps you're too busy spamming combat heals to be able to do so.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toesa</DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you're calling me l33t, and I'm calling you l33t, how can we both be l33t?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>We dont think we are leet, we dont have to try and prove we are leet by saying how hardcore our groups are, or how far past we leveled our guild (4 levels with a week off from work, btw good job there guy, I work 12-15 hours a day and only 4 levels behind you /shrug doesnt seem like you are gaining too fast there to me)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This argument is the same as an adult arguing with a child.  The child has never been an adult, yet insist the adult does not know what they're talking about.  There is no common frame of reference, all of the arguments are subjective, and no one's looking at the data posted here.  I don't need to post my own data, the data posted here bears out my argument.  Being an adult (or higher level in this context) isn't better or worse, it simply is a different frame of reference, but it does give the benefit of 2 points of view.  The child takes shots at the adult without having a clue what they're talking about.  I've got 3 kids, and 2 adopted ones over 20, I know how this dynamic quite well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Id rather be a child with a valid argument then an adult with a complex who doesnt know when its better to stop digging himself a huge hole to sit in.  With every post you make it harder and harder for yourself to come out of this with out looking like more of a clueless "know it all" then you already do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all agree that leading into a fight with SS BoV is effective, especially if you do it before the tank engages so you get the benefit of regen before you actually engage.  I think that point is fairly settled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The problem is I think that SS requires thought to use.  you instead would rather just hit hotkey 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2.  SS requires you to make a command decision.  "Is my tank in a position, and my debuffs put out that I can viably cast a 5 second reactive?".  So if you are **mods 4 teh win!!1!** enough that you cant figure out when the right time is to you the spell, of COURSE you shouldnt use it.  Why?  Because if you cant tell that your tank is going to die in 5 seconds, and you need to spam him back up to 50% then you shouldnt be playing a healer anyways.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not understand your insistance upon sitting on the sidelines and belittling the damage I do in melee when you do 0.  Sitting on the sidelines does nothing, standing in the melee to do your casting adds something...a small something, but still something that could make a difference, especially in a longer fight.  I don't hit a lot, nor for a lot of dmg individually, nor do I hit more than once between casts as the fights I'm in tend to be fast-paced, but I'm doing dmg, which means the mob is dying faster than they would if I were sitting and doing nothing but knitting.  If sitting gave me mana faster, I'd see your point but it doesn't and I don't.  *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>The question here isnt about the mana regeneration in fight, its about the mana consumption during the fight, and the ability to get off debuffs which as we all know decreases damage, which then decreases the amount that you, as the healer as to heal.  So here we are sitting here again with a no reading comprehension person trying to explain the obvious to the oblivious.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Your combined 10dps (Not total damage, that means damage per second) is not worth the extra mana it takes you to spam Direct Heals.  Kiris may not add 300 melee damage to a fight, but he adds way more total damage because he can afford to nuke 4-5 times in a fight because of the saved mana.  Not only that he has time to debuff, which means I take less damage, and if done right the mob gets hit for more if we pull off the HO with the ablative AC debuff.  But again, your way is right because you say it is, not because you have posted ANY factual data other then im leet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, the point of contention here is that you folks do not agree that time is a factor.  Our play experiences are different, that much is obvious.  You don't have combats where seconds count and can leisurely stroll through...which is the only assumption I can make if time is not a factor for you.  If time is a factor, then you'd do hp/mana/time and see that SS is on the bottom of that graph, so obviously you have all the time in the world, which is great if that's what you like.  In addition to the time consideration, the amount of dmg healed by SS is a relatively significant factor for me.  I don't know if you've done much experimentation with it, but you do realize that the "shots" reactives give are 1:1 with hits received by the tank, yes?  So, if the tank receives a hit for 87, then Kris's SS heals for 87.  If it's for 107, it heas for 87.  307?  87.  It doesn't fire off multiple shots to compensate for greater damage, it just heals up to 87/shot, and does 8 shots.  Oh, and I don't believe it does 696 on every cast either, I believe it does 8 shots, and if all those shots are for 10 hp then it healed for 80, but I'm not positive about that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>No our argument is that if your dumb as a rock, then yes you shouldnt use SS, because you cant tell when its safe or not safe to use.  Those of us in this post who understand stuff happens, also understand that SS isnt going to be used in every situation.  Those of us with no reading comprehension, or just those who like to argue points just to argue, would say SS isnt a great spell because there might be ONE time where its not usefull.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Got news for you,  No spell ive ever had, used or been around has the perfect ANYTIME use to it.  Not taunt, not Bleed, not CH, not BoV, none.  So why dont we argue semantics?  Because its a **mods 4 teh win!!1!** fight.  Learn your battles, and when you should fight them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>In the fights I've been in recently, my tanks are regularly being hammered for 6-700/hit, with specials up to 1200, and 87 just doesn't cut it.  Granted. the 138 of my BoV isn't much better, but I can get BoV off faster and compensate for the extra damage with CH's ad hoc, though I do avoid direct heals as much as possible and only use them as a buffer to allow me to get my reactive cast.  Templars may get a replacement for SS that's "better", but at 27 I just got my BoV replacement which, at app1, is far worse than both BoV and SS as far as I've seen, but I've not done a lot of testing with it yet.  It may last longer, I need to test that tonight...I just got the spell yesterday and have cast it twice, I I'm still reserving judgment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't ever ask for a backup healer and feel it to be more than a little arrogant to assume that my class is so important to the group that I feel there should be 2 of us.  A group with 1 tank, 1 cleric, and 4 dps is doing 25% more damage, drops mobs 25% faster, the tank takes 25% less damage, etc.  Having a 2nd healer is nice, and allows me to relax a bit, but then if I wanted to relax, I'd go to bed.  I enjoy the edge of being the only healer and having a monk or assassin fill the spot of that backup.  Combat moves quicker and exps roll in faster, in my experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>So much faster then with 40+ hours more to play then Kiris and I, and you hitting the game "hard" you were able to level 4 levels above us.  Even with us taking a good week out of our already limited play time to do City Writs, and help others with grey quests they couldnt finish.  Sorry man, but to be honest if I took a week off of work, and hit the game hard, Id be over 30 by now the way we group.  How do I know?  Because I was in beta, I played a templar, pre-class change, and post.  And unlike you, instead of blocking myself in a corner and holding my ears shut screaming no my way is better, I listened to those around me, tried out new techniques, learned to play the class, and in the end, this was the most effecient way for me to heal.  I play a tank now, Chris decided to play the healer, and I let him come to his own conclusions, funny that he, and many others that we show this method too agree... and yet you and your little dog oz2y, cant seem to grasp the concept.  The problem is I dont think you or he have ever TRIED it, you just assume.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 copper.</DIV> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>you almost did it big guy!! You almost made ONE post with out trying to put someone down to further your point, wow I can actually feel you growing up in this thread It almost brought a tear to my eye!</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Decimat]

<DIV>I don't think you can riposte a mob unless it is already hitting you to begin with right?  Also, priests don't have much chance to finish off an HO in a fight(at least aggro pulling HO's), unless it is something like Ancient Demise, which is very rare.  I fight against ^^ oranges+ all the time, and I have never ever been able to pull agg from the tank with just my weak melee hits, unless of course you aren't assisting the tank....</DIV>

[NitroJagZ]

<DIV> <DIV><EM>I don't think you can riposte a mob unless it is already hitting you to begin with right?  Also, priests don't have much chance to finish off an HO in a fight(at least aggro pulling HO's), unless it is something like Ancient Demise, which is very rare.  I fight against ^^ oranges+ all the time, and I have never ever been able to pull agg from the tank with just my weak melee hits, unless of course you aren't assisting the tank....</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>My post could have been clearer - I meant to say when the mobs riposte or HO on you.  My tank can be doing an excellent job - but once in a while the mobs turn on me if I'm melee'n (after casting all debuffs and multiple heals).  After a few deaths and close calls I stopped melee'n on yellow++ and harder.   Is this part of the AI or am I or someone in my group doing something wrong?</DIV></DIV>

[MacAll]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ToesToes2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>1 - We all rather just have 1 healer in the group, two is safer, but i'd rather have DPS / Bard / Chanter than another heal if i can help it.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Exactly.  This is especially true if some of your dps are casters and not rogues.  For example, Guardian, assassin, wizard, necromancer.  Now, do you add 2 healers to that group, knowing that, if the tank dies it's a guaranteed wipe, or do you add 1 healer and a monk/zerk/bruiser so you at least have a chance of pulling it out?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>2 -  SS lets us be more man efficient, too bad the cast time and cycle time is long.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Yes.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>3 - If you're find using only using BoV, Mark of Pawns and a single combat heal is fine.  That's great, the mobs aren't hitting your tank so hard that BoV can't keep up. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Mark of Pawns?  Ugh, what an awful spell.  Have you ever gotten it to be useful?  I've not done much testing on it at all after seeing the pitiful amount it healed and how seldom it did it.  I typically just use BoV and CH, and CH only as a filler.  For example, I drop BoV on the tank and he's STILL dropping in hp, though the BoV hasn't spent out yet, so casting another BoV is a waste and casting SS would take too long.  That means he's taking HARD hits and the BoV can't keep up, so I tap him with a CH then immediately hit the BoV again. </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>4- There are times with BoV, Mark and a CH doesn't cut it because your tank is being hit too hard.  pull out your other stackable re-active rather than chain cast heals. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Absolutely.  Chain-casting directs is a huge waste of mana. </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>3 - None of us are stupid enough to cast SS when the tanks about to go down. We'll use a arch or a combat heal.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Arch takes almost as long as SS, at least for me.  And I've been in groups where there's been a wipeout because the healer insisted on using SS as it was the most efficient heal.  Given we were all dead, including him, I questioned his definition of "efficient".</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>4 - Using BoV + SS can give you the time to debuff and recast SS instead of having to spam combat and Arch.  And we've all established that SS is more efficent than both Combat and Arch at this point. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think I disagree with that last bit.  Given that SS will only heal a part of a hit, and let the rest through, taking the time to cast SS may not be the best solution, as it's possible for a tank to die and still have SS left over.  If the tank is taking 400hp hits quickly, SS will only heal 87 of each of those and let the rest through, so in 3 hits the guy is taking 939hp dmg.  My CH's heal for 300+ now I believe, and I can get near 3 of them off in the time it takes me to cast SS, so of the 1200 coming at him, he only takes 300 of it.  Granted, I'm pouring mana on the floor like I don't care, but there are situations where CH is actually better than SS...again, when you take time as a factor.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>5 - You can make decisions on your feet, there's been more than enough times that i've broken various spells, arch to combat or SS to a quick combat in order to react to real world effects.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Exactly.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>The facts are that SS is mana efficient. End of argument. If you can find time to cast it, fantastic! ie Before the pull when it doesn't matter.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you cast it mid-fight?  Well perhaps now that you've stacked at before the pull you have time to , if you didn't well perhaps you're too busy spamming combat heals to be able to do so.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Agreed.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NitroJagZek wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><EM>I don't think you can riposte a mob unless it is already hitting you to begin with right?  Also, priests don't have much chance to finish off an HO in a fight(at least aggro pulling HO's), unless it is something like Ancient Demise, which is very rare.  I fight against ^^ oranges+ all the time, and I have never ever been able to pull agg from the tank with just my weak melee hits, unless of course you aren't assisting the tank....</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>My post could have been clearer - I meant to say when the mobs riposte or HO on you.  My tank can be doing an excellent job - but once in a while the mobs turn on me if I'm melee'n (after casting all debuffs and multiple heals).  After a few deaths and close calls I stopped melee'n on yellow++ and harder.   Is this part of the AI or am I or someone in my group doing something wrong?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Never engage from the front, alwas from behind.  First, most mobs past 20 use barrage, which is aoe cone off their nose, so just standing there, fighting or not, can kill you.  Second, and I could be wrong, riposte can not fire from behind.  I know I'm never riposted and only take damage if I steal the agro with a particularly vicious HO or debuff.  Never fight face to face with the mob in a group, always stand behind the dps guys at the mob's rear.<BR>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NitroJagZek wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><EM>I don't think you can riposte a mob unless it is already hitting you to begin with right?  Also, priests don't have much chance to finish off an HO in a fight(at least aggro pulling HO's), unless it is something like Ancient Demise, which is very rare.  I fight against ^^ oranges+ all the time, and I have never ever been able to pull agg from the tank with just my weak melee hits, unless of course you aren't assisting the tank....</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>My post could have been clearer - I meant to say when the mobs riposte or HO on you.  My tank can be doing an excellent job - but once in a while the mobs turn on me if I'm melee'n (after casting all debuffs and multiple heals).  After a few deaths and close calls I stopped melee'n on yellow++ and harder.   Is this part of the AI or am I or someone in my group doing something wrong?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Never engage from the front, alwas from behind.  First, most mobs past 20 use barrage, which is aoe cone off their nose, so just standing there, fighting or not, can kill you.  Second, and I could be wrong, riposte can not fire from behind.  I know I'm never riposted and only take damage if I steal the agro with a particularly vicious HO or debuff.  Never fight face to face with the mob in a group, always stand behind the dps guys at the mob's rear.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You are correct riposte only hit you from the front.

[Decimat]

<DIV>"My post could have been clearer - I meant to say when the mobs riposte or HO on you.  My tank can be doing an excellent job - but once in a while the mobs turn on me if I'm melee'n (after casting all debuffs and multiple heals).  After a few deaths and close calls I stopped melee'n on yellow++ and harder.   Is this part of the AI or am I or someone in my group doing something wrong?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, melee itself will have little to no effect on the mob you are fighting unless your tank isn't taunting AND you are somehow outdamaging him with your melee.  The main thing you need to focus on are that debuffs draw lots of agg, more so than heals.  Forced submission is the biggest agg magnet of them all, so normal you won't want to cast this until you see the tank taunt 2+ times, unless you just don't mind tanking a few hits, or even the whole fight, which most Inquisitors have the AC to do, granted you have a second healer because interupts might well get you killed without backup.  The other debuffs combined probably draw the same agg as 1 forced submission, so you might just need to be more careful with the speed of your debuff casting.  I find that 2 or more taunts from the tank is enough to keep the agg off if you want to throw down all the debuffs, but it could depend on what skill lvl (app or adept) that your tank's taunts are.  Heals will also draw agg, but if your tank is focused on a single mob, you won't have to worry.  Any adds, and the extra mobs in a group encounter will be more keen on your healing however, so if you are afraid of taking a few hits, you may want to wait till the tank group taunts before you spam heal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main staple of the Cleric line of priests is that we can take hits when need be.  Druid's supposedly have more HP than clerics, but light armor just doesn't compare to heavy in any way.  I don't even bother teaming with monks and bruisers as MT, unless we are fighting double up blues at most, simply cause they are too hard to keep alive.  Even in a team with 2 healers, it is far too much of a power drain having a tank with half my AC, let alone half a Guardian's AC.  The same holds with druids, they can't tank for anything, but a Cleric can given all their armor is decently on par with their lvl.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"Mark of Pawns?  Ugh, what an awful spell.  Have you ever gotten it to be useful?  I've not done much testing on it at all after seeing the pitiful amount it healed and how seldom it did it.  I typically just use BoV and CH, and CH only as a filler.  For example, I drop BoV on the tank and he's STILL dropping in hp, though the BoV hasn't spent out yet, so casting another BoV is a waste and casting SS would take too long.  That means he's taking HARD hits and the BoV can't keep up, so I tap him with a CH then immediately hit the BoV again."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mark of Pawns isn't a main staple debuff or a heal, but it is a supplement.  And, it is power cheap too.  App3 I have seen to have a regen strength of somewhere around 25-40 at lvl 27, which is decent for 30 power, though I will admit it was better gauged back when you were lvl 20.  Also, it adds 100-200 AC which is also nice.  And, it is a fast cast.  Fighting against double up greens, this spell can almost keep a tank full health by itself.  Against ^^ oranges, it is just nice to have, and cheap to cast which is a plus.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  The main problem with MoP, is that it is a triggered debuff.  It won't trigger until the tank takes a few hits, and even then it lasts for maybe 30 seconds once triggered.  A decent supplement, and the AC can be usefull in orange ^^ encounters.  </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Decimatus on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[ToesToe]

<DIV>Well last night i upgrade my SS, Mark of Pawns and the Resounding Fate to III.  Does it make mark of pawns and the heal on mob death still suck?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well it's a bit better, but it is kind of weak. The problem is that it proc's so infrequencly that when 2-3 people are hurt a little bit, i might as well let their natural regen catch up. I find it does help when the wars have the skill that allows them to take every 5th hit for the main tank though</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find using resounding fate is pretty good if i remember to cast it near the end of the fight. I find using ALT+M (show the current active spells) very useufl. I use to have it turned off, now i leave it on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I now know exactly how long my spells have stuck to my ally or mob, so i can recast when neccessiary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toesa</DIV>

[Gronker]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>you almost did it big guy!! You almost made ONE post with out trying to put someone down to further your point, wow I can actually feel you growing up in this thread It almost brought a tear to my eye!</FONT></P> <P><BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>I wouldn't have called it 'almost' - he was comparing "him vs others" with "adult vs kids" and then adding he was however-many-years older than anyone else and has more kids than anyone else, thus having more experience in not only adult vs kids but also with the content of this thread.  Do I need to mention he has little clue on anyone else's EQ2 experience, and none of their RL age and family status?  Personally I don't think its possible that one post gets made without putting someone down to attempt to further his point.  Not in this thread, though perhaps in another later on.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> MacAllen wrote:</DIV> <DIV>I do not understand your insistance upon sitting on the sidelines and belittling the damage I do in melee when you do 0.  <HR> </DIV> <DIV>This is important then I'll try and explain again.  I don't know where you got 'sitting on the sidelines' from, I just said meleeing was not a good tactic compared to other things for the situations you were talking about.  You are the only person talking about people sitting on the sidelines, which I have to assume is another way of saying "casting your most efficient heal" since otherwise you have severe reading comprehension issues.  And I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note that taken alone, the above quoted statement makes alot of sense (how can someone complain about doing SOME melee damage vs doing NO melee damage right?) but lets throw it in the context of your typical EQ2 battles at your level.  You claim you are fighting stuff that really pushes and challenges your group.  Let's  make the assumption that your group is pretty darn good (notice I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here) so you are working some challanging orange ^ ^ and low red ^ ^ group battles, handling adds as they may appear as you push your way through some dungeon.  I'll repeat:  I don't want to insult you by suggesting your group can only handle greens or whatever - you are doing really tough stuff for good players.  No arguement on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that we have the context, lets examine some of the things you've said.  You have been arguing that SS is not a great spell.  In fact, given the 5 second cast time you find it advantageous to melee instead.  But this really makes no sense.  In a battle with an orange++ group mob(s) SS is going to run out before the end of the battle.  Well unless you have a bunch of nukers that go bonkers and hit a few HOs and ... no its still probably going to run out.  At least in the orange++ I've fought in, and the fights seem to get longer the higher level you get .. certainly by your lofty level you could probably squeeze in multiple SSs.  Ok so we are all happy with "if I cast SS instead of melee sometime significantly enough before the end of battle, it will run out and have healed for full" I hope.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So thats, lets say, 600 damage that could have been healed by SS.  Now, you have to heal that at some point .. you aren't going to heal if its not necessary right?  Since you aren't using SS, you are using something else - CH?  Its less efficient.  AND you have to cast .. ~2 of them to get that 600 damage covered.  And the casting time is ... hmm thats longer than SS.  And its more power (becuase they are less efficient).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in fact, what you should be asking is "why do you belittle my desire to spend more time casting heals, and use more power, instead of using SS".  With that slightly altered wording I hope that you will see why I said that its a poor tactic to avoid using SS but instead melee.  Because really, you aren't meleeing instead.. you are replacing your more efficient SS with other heals.  I'm going to repeat the important consideration here:  SS is healing damage that you'd otherwise have to heal in another way.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before you start ranting about sitting on the sidelines (aka not meleeing) nowhere did I say anyone wasnt meleeing.  And given the above, not even counting the other massive benefits reactive heals like SS have over insta heals, I'd say someone not using SS to heal the tank was being very inefficient.  A much bigger issue to me than whether or not he's adding 10dps melee or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I certainly can't argue that you are doing anything bad since you claim that, chaining very challenging fights you manage to remain at constant power (though I do have an issue with your definition of 'challanging' in that case) then whatever you are doing is perfectly fine ... you can't get better than constant mana.  In my usual orange++ group battles, even with another healer in the group, I've run into power issues and usually need a break after a few fights - seems to be getting worse at higher levels.</DIV>

[MacAll]

This is getting tiresome.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gronker wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is important then I'll try and explain again.  I don't know where you got 'sitting on the sidelines' from, I just said meleeing was not a good tactic compared to other things for the situations you were talking about.  You are the only person talking about people sitting on the sidelines, which I have to assume is another way of saying "casting your most efficient heal" since otherwise you have severe reading comprehension issues.  And I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why must everything with you people be either/or?  You cast a spell, whatever spell you're doing.  Let's say you have 5 sec before you need to cast another...what are you doing?  If you are not in melee range, with your melee active, you are doing nothing.  If you are in melee range, with melee active, you are doing damage.  You don't do melee INSTEAD of healing, you do it in addition too, during whatever lulls you might have.  Even in the tightest fights, I always seem to fire off some kind of shot between casts.  The ones that mocked what tiny melee damage I do obviously consider it pointless (or they wouldn't mock it) and are therefore not doing it.  If they're not doing it, between casts, what are they adding to the encounter?  Nothing.  That was my point.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Now that we have the context, lets examine some of the things you've said.  You have been arguing that SS is not a great spell.  In fact, given the 5 second cast time you find it advantageous to melee instead.  But this really makes no sense.  In a battle with an orange++ group mob(s) SS is going to run out before the end of the battle.  Well unless you have a bunch of nukers that go bonkers and hit a few HOs and ... no its still probably going to run out.  At least in the orange++ I've fought in, and the fights seem to get longer the higher level you get .. certainly by your lofty level you could probably squeeze in multiple SSs.  Ok so we are all happy with "if I cast SS instead of melee sometime significantly enough before the end of battle, it will run out and have healed for full" I hope.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So thats, lets say, 600 damage that could have been healed by SS.  Now, you have to heal that at some point .. you aren't going to heal if its not necessary right?  Since you aren't using SS, you are using something else - CH?  Its less efficient.  AND you have to cast .. ~2 of them to get that 600 damage covered.  And the casting time is ... hmm thats longer than SS.  And its more power (becuase they are less efficient). <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You're leaving a few pieces out of the context that I'd included in prior posts.  Using your data, add the fact that your tank is being hit for 400hp/hit, and the hits are falling every 3 sec.  Now, I can cast SS...5 sec go by, my tank has taken 400 unstopped and is about to take another 400.  The 2nd 400 lands and the SS heals 87, so the tank takes 313.  Now what do I do?  Let's say I stack a BoV in there, so 2 sec go by and when the 3rd 400 lands, 138 and 87 are healed, so the tank takes 175.  At this point, my tank has taken 888dmg, in 9 sec.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, lets strip out the SS.  I lead off with a BoV, which goes off in 2 sec, so the tank takes 400 but 138 is healed in the 3rd sec.  I pause for 1 second and start on a CH, seeing how hard the tank is being hit, so in second 6 when he takes 400 again, he is heald 138 from the Bov and 313 from the CH.  I pause another second and repeat, so in second 9 the tank takes 400 which is again healed for 138 and 313.  I then repeat this process, but lets look at those numbers.  In the same 9 seconds, the tank has taken a total net dmg of 160dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, how much mana did I spend in the 2 scenarios?  In the first, I cast 1 SS and 1 BoV, for 124 + 62 = 186.  In the second, I cast 1 BoV and 2 CH's, for 62 + 65x2 = 192.  So, in the second scenario, I spent 6 more mana and healed 728hp more dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post, and leave you to check my math.  BTW, those numbers are from my spells as I made it home for lunch and spent the time doing that checking instead of playing.  I'm sure you can  bicker over "but what if....", but bottom line, from a dead start, inside the combat, SS is the least effective spell you can cast for healing, except maybe MoP.  Ignore time if you want, that's your perogative, but don't lecture me when you have no clue what you're talking about.  Even if you quickly slap a CH on the end of scenarion 1, it lowers the 888 dmg your tank has taken to 573 but now you've spent another 65 mana, making your solution cost MORE mana for less healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, but, but....but nothing.  You aren't fighting mobs that hit that hard, you don't understand, and won't until you get here, which is why I was using my level as context.  I'm not 'better', I'm higher level.  It means I've done everything you're doing and more.  You'll do it eventually, then you'll understand.  Or not.  I don't care.</DIV>

[Decimat]

<DIV>**mods 4 teh win!!1!** are you guys fighting that is doing 400 EVERY hit while you can only heal for 400 in a single Arch heal, let alone the rest of your heals?  Not even lvl 32 mobs do 400 every hit, or maybe you are letting a monk tank for you?  400 specials maybe, 400 every hit, I don't think so.  More like 50-200 a hit, with hard specials and nukes every once in awhile.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, we can come up with all kinds of hypothetical situations to outstrip the heals of a certain vitae, but 75%+ hits dealt to the tank are almost, if not fully absorbed by the vitae when fighting ^^ orange mobs with a real tank, and not some paper doll you decided to invite to your group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>Let me add a couple more examples, so you see my point with more clarity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example 1: as above, mob hits for 400hp every 3 sec, but leads off with a 1200hp special (clay guardians, fought them last night).  You're in the hall, no prep, you've just fought and are resting when the mob pops on you, so no prep time at all.  I know you're perfect, never get agro, and this would never happen to you, but humor me with this amazing leap of fiction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using SS:  Start casting SS.  Second 3, tank takes 400.  Second 4, tank takes 1200.  Second 5, SS goes off, CH is queued..  Second 6, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 your tank is healed for 313.  Second 9, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  The numbers - Tank has taken a total of 1913, which means your tank is very likely dead, and you've spent 124 + 65 = 189 mana.  Or...Second 5 BoV is queued, and your tank takes 400 on second 6, SS heals 87 of it.  Second 7, BoV goes off.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 your tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138.  Your tank has now taken 2175 dmg and your tank is DEFINATELY dead, but you only spent 186 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using HoV:  Start casting BoV.  Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 3, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 4, tank takes 1200, BoV heals 128.  Second 5, CH heals 313, I have another queued.  Second 6, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH starts.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 CH heals 313.  Second 9, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Numbers - The tank has taken a total of 1222 dmg and is DEFINATELY alive, and I've spent 62 + 65x2 = 192 mana.  A difference of 691hp healed over the best of the SS scenario.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I'm sure my numbers are a complete fiction, no mobs ever hit that hard.  So, lets use Kris's numbers in a similar set of scenarios, shall we?  I think I can remember the numbers in my low 20's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example 2:  Mob hits for 200hp every 3 sec, with a leadoff wild swing of 400  (Orc guards bottom of WC).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using SS:  Start casting SS.  Second 3, tank takes 200hp.  Second 4, tank takes 400.  Second 5, SS goes off, you have CH queued.  Second 6, tank takes 200, SS heals 87.  Second 7, CH goes off and heals 188, another CH is queued.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 the tank takes 200, SS heals 87.  Numbers - The tank has taken 638hp and you've spent 105 + 53 = 158 mana.  Or, second 6 the tank takes 200, SS heals 87, second 7 BoV goes off.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 the tank takes 200, ss heals 87 and BoV heals 102.  Here the tank has taken 724hp and you've spent 55 + 105 = 160 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using BoV:  Start casting BoV.  Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 3, tank takes 200hp, BoV heals 102.  Second 4, tank takes 400, BoV heals 102.  Second 5, CH goes off, heals 188, CH is queued.  Second 6, tank takes 200, BoV heals 102.  Second 7 goes by.  Second 8, CH goes off, healing 188.  Second 9, tank takes 200, BoV heals 102.  Numbers - The tank has taken 318hp and you've spent 55 + 53x2 = 161 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I definately see your point and understand why you think SS is great, and time is not a factor.  I apologize for any confusion I've caused in my pointless arguing.  Enjoy the next 10 levels <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy</DIV>

[IlluvatorBrightst]

Mac, would just like to point out that while, for that 9 second span of time your numbers do come out on top, you're only factoring in a few fires of the SS. If you take that same 9 second span, repeat it 4 or 5 times for a fight, then the numbers begin to shift the other way.

[MacAll]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Decimatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>**mods 4 teh win!!1!** are you guys fighting that is doing 400 EVERY hit while you can only heal for 400 in a single Arch heal, let alone the rest of your heals?  Not even lvl 32 mobs do 400 every hit, or maybe you are letting a monk tank for you?  400 specials maybe, 400 every hit, I don't think so.  More like 50-200 a hit, with hard specials and nukes every once in awhile.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, we can come up with all kinds of hypothetical situations to outstrip the heals of a certain vitae, but 75%+ hits dealt to the tank are almost, if not fully absorbed by the vitae when fighting ^^ orange mobs with a real tank, and not some paper doll you decided to invite to your group.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>400-600 were the numbers rolling over the lvl 27 guardian's head, and they all seem to dump their special in the first like 10 seconds.  These are lvl 31-34 guardians down in Varsoon.  The monk's won't tank, it hurts too much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Now keep in mind, there are a LOT of other factors here, such as wards, tank buffs, etc.  In fact, given they dump their massive dmg up front, my guardians like to hold the line or hunker down for the first 10 sec just to avoid the nightmare and make my life easier.  That also helps them get a good grip on the agro and allows the mobs to spend their mana beating on a piece of granite.</P> <P>However, in this debate, we're talking just the role of the cleric and our spells.  Sure the tank can have wards, and other buffs, etc, but all that they would do is cloud the issue and have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the spells in question.</P> <P>BTW, what does **mods 4 teh win!!1!** mean?</P>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>Let me add a couple more examples, so you see my point with more clarity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example 1: as above, mob hits for 400hp every 3 sec, but leads off with a 1200hp special (clay guardians, fought them last night).  You're in the hall, no prep, you've just fought and are resting when the mob pops on you, so no prep time at all.  I know you're perfect, never get agro, and this would never happen to you, but humor me with this amazing leap of fiction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using SS:  Start casting SS.  Second 3, tank takes 400.  Second 4, tank takes 1200.  Second 5, SS goes off, CH is queued..  Second 6, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 your tank is healed for 313.  Second 9, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  The numbers - Tank has taken a total of 1913, which means your tank is very likely dead, and you've spent 124 + 65 = 189 mana.  Or...Second 5 BoV is queued, and your tank takes 400 on second 6, SS heals 87 of it.  Second 7, BoV goes off.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 your tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138.  Your tank has now taken 2175 dmg and your tank is DEFINATELY dead, but you only spent 186 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using HoV:  Start casting BoV.  Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 3, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 4, tank takes 1200, BoV heals 128.  Second 5, CH heals 313, I have another queued.  Second 6, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH starts.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 CH heals 313.  Second 9, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Numbers - The tank has taken a total of 1222 dmg and is DEFINATELY alive, and I've spent 62 + 65x2 = 192 mana.  A difference of 691hp healed over the best of the SS scenario.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I'm sure my numbers are a complete fiction, no mobs ever hit that hard.  So, lets use Kris's numbers in a similar set of scenarios, shall we?  I think I can remember the numbers in my low 20's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>or we can completely ignore the fact that everyone here has said THAT USING SS REQUIRES THOUGHT.  OBviously in YOUR Scenario which doesnt happen EVERY fight you wouldnt use SS.. god **mods 4 teh win!!1!** man, seriously LEARN TO READ.  NO SPELL, NOT ONE SPELL, is perfect IN EVERY SCENARIO.  Can you not comprehend that?  Or are you lost in those mountains that your picture of you shows?  How come you CANT understand that when someone says SS is a GREAT spell, they mean in the context of when its used, and how the point was being argued?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Even though it doesnt SAY no shooting people when walking into a mall, since you are so literal and cant comprehend a subject with out every instance of the situation being spelled out for you, do you then proceed to shoot everyone because no one said "Well in this instance its not ok to use a firearm"</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example 2:  Mob hits for 200hp every 3 sec, with a leadoff wild swing of 400  (Orc guards bottom of WC).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using SS:  Start casting SS.  Second 3, tank takes 200hp.  Second 4, tank takes 400.  Second 5, SS goes off, you have CH queued.  Second 6, tank takes 200, SS heals 87.  Second 7, CH goes off and heals 188, another CH is queued.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 the tank takes 200, SS heals 87.  Numbers - The tank has taken 638hp and you've spent 105 + 53 = 158 mana.  Or, second 6 the tank takes 200, SS heals 87, second 7 BoV goes off.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 the tank takes 200, ss heals 87 and BoV heals 102.  Here the tank has taken 724hp and you've spent 55 + 105 = 160 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using BoV:  Start casting BoV.  Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 3, tank takes 200hp, BoV heals 102.  Second 4, tank takes 400, BoV heals 102.  Second 5, CH goes off, heals 188, CH is queued.  Second 6, tank takes 200, BoV heals 102.  Second 7 goes by.  Second 8, CH goes off, healing 188.  Second 9, tank takes 200, BoV heals 102.  Numbers - The tank has taken 318hp and you've spent 55 + 53x2 = 161 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I definately see your point and understand why you think SS is great, and time is not a factor.  I apologize for any confusion I've caused in my pointless arguing.  Enjoy the next 10 levels <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>You dont see the point because you are too busy frothing at the mouth to prove everyone wrong.  I give up, and I dont give up because you are right, I give up because no matter how someone spells it out for you, your going to try and find every miniscule situation where it wont work, even though for the point of the subject is, that SS is a viable healing option stacked with BoV.. NOT THAT ITS A VIABLE OPTION INSTEAD OF BOV.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>edit: <FONT color=#ff0000>**mods 4 teh win!!1!** means someone used a word the mods didnt like, no its not always foul language it could be the other word for not smart... or the other word for mentally challegned that starts with an R.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kiris on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 PM</span>

[Decimat]

<DIV>That was actually W T F, Mods 4 teh win is the profanity filter. heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the hits that land on the tank throughout the battle with a guardian are 200ish, since the guardian is using damage mitigation the first half of the battle.  Vitaes do pretty well at handling that.  I usually throw both vitae's on the tank, and mop up the extra stuff with a CH here and there, fitting debuffs in when I can.  The guardians are cake. It is the groups of 8 red skeles that are the fun ones.  </DIV>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IlluvatorBrightstar wrote:<BR>Mac, would just like to point out that while, for that 9 second span of time your numbers do come out on top, you're only factoring in a few fires of the SS. If you take that same 9 second span, repeat it 4 or 5 times for a fight, then the numbers begin to shift the other way.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not a problem, let's go to 18 sec to see the full effect of the SS, shall we?  I'll cut and paste my example, and add to it:</P> <DIV>Example 1: as above, mob hits for 400hp every 3 sec, but leads off with a 1200hp special (clay guardians, fought them last night).  You're in the hall, no prep, you've just fought and are resting when the mob pops on you, so no prep time at all.  I know you're perfect, never get agro, and this would never happen to you, but humor me with this amazing leap of fiction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using SS:  Start casting SS.  Second 3, tank takes 400.  Second 4, tank takes 1200.  Second 5, SS goes off, CH is queued..  Second 6, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 your tank is healed for 313, another CH is queued.  Second 9, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 10, CH heals for 313, CH is queued.  Second 11 goes by, second 12 the tank takes 400, SS heals 87, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 13 goes by, second 14 the tank is healed 313, CH is queued.  Second 15, the tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 16, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 17 goes by, second 18 SS heals 87, CH heals 313.  Numbers - The tank has taken 1287 and you've spent 124 + 65x6 = 514 mana.  Or...Second 5 BoV is queued, and your tank takes 400 on second 6, SS heals 87 of it.  Second 7, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 your tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 10 goes by, second 11 CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 12, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, SS heals 87.  Second 13 goes by, second 14 CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 15, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, SS heals 87.  Second 16, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 17 goes by, second 18, the tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313.  Numbers - The tank has taken 1048, but you've spent 124 + 62 + 65*5 = 511 mana.  Now, at 27th lvl, with a 67 wisdom, I have 873 mana.  So, 18 sec into the fight, I'm 3/4 empty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using HoV:  Start casting BoV.  Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 3, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 4, tank takes 1200, BoV heals 138.  Second 5, CH heals 313, I have another queued.  Second 6, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH starts.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 CH heals 313, BoV is queued.  Second 9, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 10, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 11 goes by, second 12 tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313, CH queued.  Second 13 goes by, second 14 CH heals 313, CH queued.  Second 15, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 16, CH heals 313, CH queued.  Second 17 goes by, second 18, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313.  Numbers - The tank has taken 776hp and I have spent 62*2 + 65*5 = 449 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would you like to go for 36 seconds?  The curve keeps going down.  Knock yourself out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What if the mobs hit for less?  Then they hit for less in both situations, and the numbers still bear out.  Even with the mobs hitting in the 100's, in my example 2 above, it still shows the same result.  Now, the math was done while I was on the phone at work, so please point out arithmetic errors if you see them and I'll correct.</DIV><p>Message Edited by MacAllen on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:58 PM</span>

[MacAll]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Decimatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>That was actually W T F, Mods 4 teh win is the profanity filter. heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the hits that land on the tank throughout the battle with a guardian are 200ish, since the guardian is using damage mitigation the first half of the battle.  Vitaes do pretty well at handling that.  I usually throw both vitae's on the tank, and mop up the extra stuff with a CH here and there, fitting debuffs in when I can.  The guardians are cake. It is the groups of 8 red skeles that are the fun ones.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We opened a door last night to a room filled with red^^ skels, one of which was at the door and they all lit off on us.  Tore us apart, I was burning PoA at both ends and, when the evac dust settled, we were all alive but not a one of us had > 20% health <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Quite a sphincter tightener <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Edit: Oh, and if you want 200 vs 400, use example 2 above, the results are the same.  Now, if you lower your dmg results to < 87, then SS starts to look pretty, so I expect that example to roll out from the opposition soon, as they're big on changing the example to suit their needs.  Time?  Not a factor.  Mobs don't hit that hard.  SS is great.  Wait, it's not great.  Oh, it is great, but only in certain situations.  Oh, but you have to have smarts to use it.</P> <P>Whatever.  You ask for numbers, I give you numbers.  I even use your numbers.  Pick a story and stick with it.  Or not *shrug*</P> <P>Edit: Oh, and sorry about not knowing the profanity filter.  Different forums handle things differently and I try hard not to use profanity here as it's a mixed audience.  It doesn't mean I'm nice, it just means I have kids who read these forums too :p</P><p>Message Edited by MacAllen on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:59 PM</span>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Decimatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>That was actually W T F, Mods 4 teh win is the profanity filter. heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the hits that land on the tank throughout the battle with a guardian are 200ish, since the guardian is using damage mitigation the first half of the battle.  Vitaes do pretty well at handling that.  I usually throw both vitae's on the tank, and mop up the extra stuff with a CH here and there, fitting debuffs in when I can.  The guardians are cake. It is the groups of 8 red skeles that are the fun ones.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We opened a door last night to a room filled with red^^ skels, one of which was at the door and they all lit off on us.  Tore us apart, I was burning PoA at both ends and, when the evac dust settled, we were all alive but not a one of us had > 20% health <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Quite a sphincter tightener <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Edit: Oh, and if you want 200 vs 400, use example 2 above, the results are the same.  Now, if you lower your dmg results to < 87, then SS starts to look pretty, so I expect that example to roll out from the opposition soon, as they're big on changing the example to suit their needs.  Time?  Not a factor.  Mobs don't hit that hard.  SS is great.  Wait, it's not great.  Oh, it is great, but only in certain situations.  Oh, but you have to have smarts to use it.</P> <P>Whatever.  You ask for numbers, I give you numbers.  I even use your numbers.  Pick a story and stick with it.  Or not *shrug*</P> <P>Edit: Oh, and sorry about not knowing the profanity filter.  Different forums handle things differently and I try hard not to use profanity here as it's a mixed audience.  It doesn't mean I'm nice, it just means I have kids who read these forums too :p</P> <P>Message Edited by MacAllen on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:59 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Nope, never once did we change our stance, you just dont know how to get the words from the page, to your brain, then understand it with out every exact scenario being spelled out for you, and us listing when it is and isnt a good spell to use.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>instead you would rather ignore the fact that 98% of the time its the most effecient healing method, because in that 2% time you are talking about it isnt.  Btw gg's on using Chris's level 23 healing levels, in your level 30+ mob breakdown, it really fits!</FONT></DIV>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IlluvatorBrightstar wrote:<BR>Mac, would just like to point out that while, for that 9 second span of time your numbers do come out on top, you're only factoring in a few fires of the SS. If you take that same 9 second span, repeat it 4 or 5 times for a fight, then the numbers begin to shift the other way.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not a problem, let's go to 18 sec to see the full effect of the SS, shall we?  I'll cut and paste my example, and add to it:</P> <DIV>Example 1: as above, mob hits for 400hp every 3 sec, but leads off with a 1200hp special (clay guardians, fought them last night).  You're in the hall, no prep, you've just fought and are resting when the mob pops on you, so no prep time at all.  I know you're perfect, never get agro, and this would never happen to you, but humor me with this amazing leap of fiction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using SS:  Start casting SS.  Second 3, tank takes 400.  Second 4, tank takes 1200.  Second 5, SS goes off, CH is queued..  Second 6, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 your tank is healed for 313, another CH is queued.  Second 9, tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 10, CH heals for 313, CH is queued.  Second 11 goes by, second 12 the tank takes 400, SS heals 87, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 13 goes by, second 14 the tank is healed 313, CH is queued.  Second 15, the tank takes 400, SS heals 87.  Second 16, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 17 goes by, second 18 SS heals 87, CH heals 313.  Numbers - The tank has taken 1287 and you've spent 124 + 65x6 = 514 mana.  Or...Second 5 BoV is queued, and your tank takes 400 on second 6, SS heals 87 of it.  Second 7, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 8 goes by, second 9 your tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 10 goes by, second 11 CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 12, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, SS heals 87.  Second 13 goes by, second 14 CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 15, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, SS heals 87.  Second 16, CH heals 313, CH is queued.  Second 17 goes by, second 18, the tank takes 400, SS heals 87, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313.  Numbers - The tank has taken 1048, but you've spent 124 + 62 + 65*5 = 511 mana.  Now, at 27th lvl, with a 67 wisdom, I have 873 mana.  So, 18 sec into the fight, I'm 3/4 empty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using HoV:  Start casting BoV.  Second 2, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 3, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 4, tank takes 1200, BoV heals 138.  Second 5, CH heals 313, I have another queued.  Second 6, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH starts.  Second 7 goes by, second 8 CH heals 313, BoV is queued.  Second 9, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 10, BoV goes off, CH is queued.  Second 11 goes by, second 12 tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313, CH queued.  Second 13 goes by, second 14 CH heals 313, CH queued.  Second 15, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138.  Second 16, CH heals 313, CH queued.  Second 17 goes by, second 18, tank takes 400, BoV heals 138, CH heals 313.  Numbers - The tank has taken 776hp and I have spent 62*2 + 65*5 = 449 mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would you like to go for 36 seconds?  The curve keeps going down.  Knock yourself out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What if the mobs hit for less?  Then they hit for less in both situations, and the numbers still bear out.  Even with the mobs hitting in the 100's, in my example 2 above, it still shows the same result.  Now, the math was done while I was on the phone at work, so please point out arithmetic errors if you see them and I'll correct.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by MacAllen on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:58 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for posting numbers now we can actually get some where.</P> <P> </P> <P>Since you didnt quite break it down i will try. Correct me if I am wrong. Also, I have no idea what these spells are (app3, adept 1, adept 3)????</P> <P>LVL 27 INQ</P> <P><STRONG>CH = 313 HP healed for 65 mana - 4.81 rating </STRONG></P> <P>This is a very nice improvement over my rating at 23. This spells seems to have scaled very nicely over 4 levels provided it is app3</P> <P><STRONG>BoV = 138 with 4 charges = 552 HP for 62 mana - 8.9 rating</STRONG></P> <P>This spell has also scaled up nicely over 4 lvls provided it is app3.</P> <P><STRONG>SS = 87 with 8 charges = 696 HP for 124 mana - 5.61 rating</STRONG></P> <P>This spell has not scaled one bit. In fact, it looks exactly the same as my app1 version at lvl 23. Only the mana cost has scaled by your numbers, which is why the rating has gone down.</P> <P>Ok, so here we have a problem. Either you used my healing power(87) at lvl 23 app1 version and used your mana cost to prove your point by an honest mistake. Or, you did it intentionally because you haven't used SS in several lvls and have no idea what it heals for now. Or, SS is broken and only mana usage scales, not HP healed.</P> <P>I will take you at your word that you are accurately posting your numbers. In that case, the scaling on SS is horribly broken compared to the scaling of other spells and this needs to be brought to the devs attention. If this is the case, then you are 100% right. But, only because it would appear that SS does not scale past lvl 23. I know that it does scale because at lvl 22 it was 81 HP a charge at app1.</P> <P>Again correct me if I am wrong. I would like to get and accurate rating of a INQ's spells at your lvl.</P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: </P> <P>Also of note- Your using of SS example vs BoV example is horrible. You do not factor in stacking the reactives in the pre fight routine to heal some of the initial brunt of the encounter. In neither example do you have stacked reactives firing off. WHICH IS WHAT I AM ADVOCATING. Stacking the reactives and finding a way to keep them stacked. I will assume you have made this error as an honest mistake.</P> <P>We are not talking about programing a macro to heal the exact same way every time. In your example of damage taken I would have:</P> <P>(Im not going to type it out second by second.) </P> <P>Prefight stack. Tank takes the intial big hit. I would cast my adept 1 Arch heal(it it scales in a way similar to the way your CH has)or spam 2 CH. Cast BoV so it reapplies as the initial one from the prefight stack fades or shortly there after. Cast SS so it reapplies as the inital one fades or shortly there after. Then heal as necessary(cast another BoV, CH, or whatever) til the fight has ended.</P> <P>I know example is not exact, but niether is yours.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Kiris420 on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[MacAll]

<DIV>CH and BoV are adept III, SS is app III...you'll note it's the same as the data you posted for yours.  I never upgraded SS because I stopped using it in my low 20's.  Spells do not appear to advance per level, but only based upon the spell's level itself, app/ad/master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at the example using your data instead of mine, you'll see that your own data produces the same results.</DIV>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>  Spells do not appear to advance per level, but only based upon the spell's level itself, app/ad/master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is not true. SS was 81 at 22 for me and 87 at 23. It is still app1. Upgrading to app3 tonight to check it out. If my mana cost jumps, but it's still healing for 87 <that is after I upgrade to app3 which is what yours is> then I am filling out a bug report instantly because that is not intended and the spell is broken.</DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>CH and BoV are adept III, SS is app III...you'll note it's the same as the data you posted for yours.  I never upgraded SS because I stopped using it in my low 20's.  Spells do not appear to advance per level, but only based upon the spell's level itself, app/ad/master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at the example using your data instead of mine, you'll see that your own data produces the same results.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>you could not be farther from the truth my friend.  Spells power do increase with level, not with just the level of spell it is (meaning app1, app2, app3).  You also say you havent used SS since your early 20's so how can you argue then its not a viable solution at your level if you havent used it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wow, the truth is starting to leak out here.. someone get a bucket I thinks she sunk.</DIV>

[MacAll]

<DIV>Allow me to be more specific...I stopped using SS in my low 20's for anything other than a pre-fight buff or chaos management when we're on the gold-paved road, and never upgraded.  I never upgraded Mark of the Pawn either, though I cast that now and again.  I've used SS several times in the last day or so to try to understand what you see in the spell.  Adept I's are drop only and Adept III's require a rare, so I don't upgrade spells I don't use regularly, as I'm afraid I'm not just dripping with cash at the moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I guess spells do advance a little with level, but the jump I get going from app to appIII and adept III was far greater than anything I get on a level-by-level basis.  But my SS does 87 now and did 87 the day I upgraded it to app III, I remember noting that and thinking it odd.  Perhaps the spell is broken, and if that's the case then my argument goes out the window.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm afraid I'm not one to try to decide what the devs intent was and cry for a nerf or buff if it's not what I like.  The spell is what it is and sucks or not, based upon the evidence at hand, at least for me.</DIV>

[Kiris420]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I guess spells do advance a little with level, but the jump I get going from app to appIII and adept III was far greater than anything I get on a level-by-level basis.  But my SS does 87 now and did 87 the day I upgraded it to app III, I remember noting that and thinking it odd.  Perhaps the spell is broken, and if that's the case then my argument goes out the window.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LVL 23 INQ</P> <P> <HR> </P> <P><STRONG>Soothing sermon App3</STRONG></P> <P>107 healed per charge X 8 charges - 856 HP heal</P> <P>117 Mana</P> <P>Rating = 7.31</P> <P> <HR> </P> <P>I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, over the course of all these posts, I have watched you constantly take things I post out of context, use lopsided examples to prove your points, flat out mistate simple game mechanics that any lvl 4 newb on the isle of refuge notices(spells getting stronger with character lvl).</P> <P> Now, you want me to believe that your character is bugged and your SS did not increase with charcter lvl or by upgrading to app3 while the mana cost did? And by coincidence, it just happened to get bugged at 87 Hp healed - the exact thing I posted before I had any knowledge of what your SS healed for?</P> <P>Taking all of this into account, we were either destined by GOD to have this debate so that you may find out your character is bugged or you are full of it. Hmmm. Tough call.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Decimat]

BTW Macallen... the clay guardians in Varsoon hit a Guardian with 1700 AC for an average of 60-200 with 400 specials, no where close to 400 average, 1200 specials. 60-200 being well within normal Vitae healing.

[Gronker]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MacAllen wrote:<BR> <DIV>CH and BoV are adept III, SS is app III...you'll note it's the same as the data you posted for yours.  I never upgraded SS because I stopped using it in my low 20's.  Spells do not appear to advance per level, but only based upon the spell's level itself, app/ad/master.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How can one person be so wrong?  I notice an attempt to save ego elsewhere ...</P> <P>Level is actually a factor in determining the potency of spells.</P> <P>I'm going to give up trying to save the readers from any more misinformation in this thread, as it should be evident to any worth saving which posters have little credibility.<BR></P>

[Elah]

I just want to say, that's the most amusing debate I've seen in ages. I am a 26 year old male who graduated from high school, and have attended college for 3 years (though not completed). One of the courses I had to take in BOTH high school and College was Reading Comprehension. After looking at Both Kiris's arguements, MacAllen's rebuttals, and Gronkers occasional statements, this has to be one of the most amusing and entertaining threads I've read in a long time. I'm sure I'll get one starred for saying it, but I still have to comment.What everyone is really arguing about is this, FROM MY PERCEPTION. Is SS worth Casting in place of 2 CH + 1 melee swing During A Battle IN CERTAIN situations? I don't claim to know. You really have to judge JUST that 6 second period. Those are the same time frames (and similar power cost). I'm judging from what I'm reading from you guys, and my own experiences with spell casting & meleeing (as a warlock). SS takes 5 seconds to cast? and CH takes 3? Ok. Second 1 Second 2 Second 3 Second 4 Second 5 Second 6----------------------SS------------------------------------****Melee****---------------CH-------------***Melee***---------------CH---------------There's your time justification. You're getting the SAME amount of melee swings either way, just so you know. Theoretically, you might get an extra before and after, so 2 melee swings. Do you honestly think 12, 24, or even 36 damage is going to make a difference?I'm a 24 Warlock. I'm not a healer. However, several of my guildmates are. After reading this discussion while crafting, I popped in to guild chat and started asking a few numbers off Soothing Sermon & Bestowal of Vitae. From 23 to 31 (on Unrest server) both spells scale every level. App III's from a level 27 do more than App III's from a level 23. Of the 4 templars and 3 inquisitors that my guildmates were grouped with, as well as some from the guild I used to be in, ALL of them used SS before a battle and swore up & down it rocked, and was worth recasting in battle -IF SITUATIONS PERMIIT-. Several said they often didn't have time to recast it right when it wore off, but all of them made an effort to find a moment when they were able to devote 5 seconds to it. I also asked a RL friend who's on Guk, and who knew someone on Runnyeye, if their SS scaled appropriately with their Combat Healing and Arch Healing. So, on Unrest, Guk, and Runnyeye, those spells scale every level, with or without a spell version change. Admittedly, Adept 1 is better than App 3, and significantly so. Now, I don't know which server MacAllen plays on (I have neither desire nor care to hunt up his stats), but unless it's a one server or one character glitch or an act of god, there's no way that a level 27 SS does the exact same healing ratio as a level 23 SS. In that mix of healers, 2 refused to melee anything higher than White. 3 Refused to melee anything higher than yellow+. The rest would melee "as they felt appropriate," meaning they would make a judgement based on the tank, tank's AC, tank's DPS, tank's Taunt levels, tank's capabilities, tank's HP & damage Received per second, their mana, their level vs. the tank's level vs. the mob's level, and a other factors that I don't comprehend (as I'm not a healer). It's a risk. If the mob aggros you, it takes a hit or two to realize it. If the healer is off to the side, it's noticed immediately, and often pulled back to the tank before it even swings at the healer. The level 24 templar I was fighting with tonight melee'd regularly. On whites and lower he'd hit for approximately 7 to 12 damage with the rare crit of around 22. It took him -2- seconds to swing his mace. On higher mobs, he hit less often and hit for less damage. I checked the log, out of 240 swings (that I saw in combat logs) he actually HIT about 75 of those. That means that in that "5 seconds that you could be castings two other spells and get one swing off in between," you've got a 1 in 3 chance of actually doing damage. On the Orange Double++ that I asked him to melee on (to test a theory) he was able to hit the mob 2 out of 27 times. So, you're telling me that that extra 13 damage (one hit for 4 one hit for 9) REALLY makes a difference on a mob with over 2000 hp? When it was killed by a nuke that did 300 damage? Really. Shortened the battle, didn't it? Just checking. I don't know heals, but I live and die by damage. 13 damage means squat in a fight of that nature. Now, 13 a second is another story. But 13 total damage out of an entire fight means squat. That -might- shorten the battle by a total of 2 seconds, i.e. as long as it took him to swing his mace, if a lot of other factors Aligned Perfectly to allow him to make the last swing. Those factors include (but are not limited to) 4 damage over time spells, a nuke ever 2 seconds (max time), a melee swing ever 1.2 seconds (ranger with two daggers, not sure if they swing seperately or not, as an example), God knows what kind of skills the various classes are using, and in general everyone doing their best to kill it. Let's -assume- you actually hit the mob EVERY SINGLE TIME even though a level 31 warden I chat with has her crushing maxed and can't do that against yellows, much less orange ++ mobs. That'd be what, 12 dps (by YOUR reckoning) over maybe 600 seconds (on a really long battle). Now, factor in that you're probably casting for a good portion (80% of the battle, by simple reasoning that "every second counts" and you're casting a lot). That's Not quite the same. That's 120 seconds that you have available to melee. Consider, then, that even fighters miss, and get "low" hits occasionally, it's not quite the "1440" that it sounds like. Try 1/3rd of that. That 400 damage, over the whole fight. That's Two nukes, max. I'm doing 330 per nuke NOW, at level 24. That's up from 310 at 23. You're saying 4 seconds (as long as it takes me to cast my highest & second highest nuke), at the end of a battle, means a full wipe of your party? I don't care WHAT you're using you're probably doing a crappy job of healing. I can't even begin to comprehend your problems. 4 seconds in the MIDDLE of a fight, yes, but does it really help near the end? That's the only place your PUNY damage helps, is cutting down that time. And it's NEVER going to be a significant amount. You might shorten a 30 second battle to 28 seconds. Maybe. Perhaps. If all the planets lined up in a row. On a much longer fight, it adds up. I timed a few of my battles tonight, we ranged from 30 seconds (orange+) to 5 minutes (4 orange++ group with an orange++ add at the end). In that 5 minute fight, you would have MAYBE saved 30 seconds. Maybe. Probably less when you start to add in AoE spells by casters. Melee if you want, we won't complain. Extra damage is Extra damage. Don't try to tell me that 12 damage is worth not having a reactive heal on someone, I get that from my side of the fence. I don't know anything about healing, as I'm not a healer, but I live & die by spells. I've rejoiced in the extra damage my spells do, the extra power regen I get out of battle from my buffs, the extra AC, Int, and various damage mitigation that ALL of my spells ncrease by every level. Some more than others, but the ratios don't change. I just had to comment. It started short, but I just couldn't help myself.<p>Message Edited by Elahna on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:18 AM</span>

[Lig]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>I have no idea what kind of healer you are and what you use at the higher levels but I am a 23 Inq and I've got to tell you that SS rocks.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>First of all let me state that if mobs are doing 400dmg a pop to your tank then either a) you should run away screaming like a little girl or b) you are no debuffing anything EVER. Your main job as an Inq is to keep your party alive my friend, and the way we do that is not straight heals, we debuff. When you take your Adept 1 or 3 Weakness and pop it on a mob, plus your Submission spell you reduce the damage done by the mob significantly to your main tank. This makes SS much more effective when stacked with BoV. Furthermore SS is a wonderful way to keep Chanters alive that one extra tick it takes to cast an AH to get them back to a reasonable level of hp. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The way I debuff is by having SS and BoV on my tank before a tough battle. This gives him/her time to take a little damage and build agro before I bang away with weakness and my armor debuff as well as forced submission when I can spare the time.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Inq keep parties alive by debuffing as well as healing and that is where we excell.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I would also like to add that the armor debuff we get adds a ton of DPS done to the mob since it effects every hit.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>One point I would like to emphisise concerning healers attacking is that our weapons do proc damage. So although you are correct in saying that my tiny DPS is not going to make a huge difference at all, I do hit for 30+ at times and that can actually kill a mob towards the end.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>In any case I am not sure how the game mechanics work but I seem to recall that in EQLive or DAoC (can't remember which this was the case in as I played both a long time ago) the more people attacking the easier it was to hit a target.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Well that's my 2cp. Hope I didn't offend anyone.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Ligur</SPAN></P></DIV>

[MasterThel]

Elahna, while it's true we do pathetic damage to a mob while meleeing, I DEFINITELY do more than 13 damage a fight. At level 20 I generally rack up about 100-200 damage on yellow ^^ and less per fight. I'm sure the amount will drop as I get deeper into the level 20 "harder" mobs but we're given heavy armor for a reason (if the mob turns to us, we can mitigate those 1-2 seconds before the tank realises, through damage absorption). Having said that, in certain situations it really ISN'T viable for the healer to melee and I'm glad to stand down then. But if at all possible I will melee if at least to keep my skills capped and make soloing easier. I make the judgement not to put my party at risk first, always, but I'm 1/6th of the party and have my own goals too.

[Elah]

<blockquote><hr>MasterThelps wrote:Elahna, while it's true we do pathetic damage to a mob while meleeing, I DEFINITELY do more than 13 damage a fight. At level 20 I generally rack up about 100-200 damage on yellow ^^ and less per fight. I'm sure the amount will drop as I get deeper into the level 20 "harder" mobs but we're given heavy armor for a reason (if the mob turns to us, we can mitigate those 1-2 seconds before the tank realises, through damage absorption). Having said that, in certain situations it really ISN'T viable for the healer to melee and I'm glad to stand down then. But if at all possible I will melee if at least to keep my skills capped and make soloing easier. I make the judgement not to put my party at risk first, always, but I'm 1/6th of the party and have my own goals too.<hr></blockquote>I wasn't saying that you only do 13 damage in a fight, I just meant in the fight that I -watched- the logs and wrote down numbers JUST to test theories, OUR inquisitor swung 27 times, and hit twice. That includes the fact that he was casting BoV, SS, Debuffs, CH, AH, and loads more spells that I even know (as I'm a warlock). Those two times, he hit once for 4 and once for 9. At the time, these were Orange double up mobs. We were a group of levels 24-26 (the inquisitor was 24, like me). I know it's an unusual case, but EVEN if he had HIT every time, and did MAX damage each time, that's 9 damage, no, wait, let's say 20 for "critical" hits and assume he critical hit every time. That leaves 27 * 20. That's a total of 540 damage. Over the course of the fight. You're right in THAT instance, where EVERY time he hits he gets critical and he hit every time he swung. Realistically, you're talking around HALF that (with crits & low hits) EVEN if he hits every time, so roughly 270 damage (which is half). That's a nuke from me, or a properly executed backstab (or similar) from a Ranger / Assassin. You're talking about shortening the fight a TOTAL of 2 seconds. Also, there are going to be extreme cases in either direction. Sometimes, your healer meleeing is the worst possible situation, and other times, you'll lose the fight without it. There's always going to be exceptions (and an exceptional healer recognizes those fights). What I'm getting at is that a Healer's damage over the course of a battle (assuming it's a one healer group) is using 80% of his time to cast spells. That means that it's not possible for him or her to make a large dent in a mob's hit points, nor to make a large <b>melee</b> difference in a battle. It's a small difference. It DOES help, but it is a SMALL difference. I get a minor heal type spell at level 47. It's probably insanely expensive power wise, but if others know I have it, and the tank dies while I have 80% power and the cleric has 0% power, then yeah, it's on me at that point. My healing is guaranteed to be "pitiful" in comparison to yours (as it should be, it's the only spell I get that does anything of that nature). At the same time, I could have cast the nuke that -might- have killed the mob. I'll have to learn when to use that spell VERY wisely. There's a time and a place for everything. And realistically speaking, at level 20, I can spam "Blaze" followed by "Ice Spike" every 2 seconds to do 90-190 damage on blaze and 60-140 damage on Ice Spike. So, again, you're talking about two nuke's time worth of damage. Or, at most (assuming you hit 200 damage that fight) 6 seconds. I haven't run out of mana to the point that we were losing a fight because of it since I gained "Painful Meditation" that turns my health into power (about enough for 3 nukes, usually).There are always going to be extreme cases in either situation (fights where you never hit the mob once, or where you hit every time). =) Heavy Armor does not equal anything more than damage mitigation (which I thank Tunare that you're blessed with). You're smart enough to realize that there's a time and a place for a healer to stay back and SOLELY focus on healing without having to worry about getting aggro and someone not noticing it, and there's a time and a place for a healer to be in the thick of things adding that (occasionaly Crucial) extra damage. I don't begin to know those limitations. I know when -I- should melee (strangely, only on yellow++ and harder), but I'm not a healer, so I'm only guessing from the other side of the fence.I have looked at the numbers though. I'm sure his 2/27 hit ratio was a rare occasion.

[xentr]

<DIV>I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.</DIV>

[ZDiddy]

I've been reading this thread, but can say I haven't made up my mind on the usefulness of SS as compared to spot CH heals. One thing that has bothered me, and it's quite a small thing at that, but no one has taken into account our chance to proc! Do you guys not use Courage anymore? I've found that with my Adept I Courage I can proc for some nice damage! Anywhere from 27-40 damage when it goes off right now at level 22. It may not sound like much, but if you get a lucky streak and proc on2 of 10 swings it's more damage then the swings themselves combined. As for the current arguemnet, I use my CH mostly for the minor buff it carries with it. Whenever the servers decide to come back up I'll drag my duo partner out and force her to do some testing with me.Edit: Just reskimmed and see our proc was mentioned. I've not had it pull aggro, but when you duo with an Assassin who just unloaded a massive ShadowBlade you can't really get the aggro back..<p>Message Edited by ZDiddy on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 PM</span>

[Moratt]

<DIV>1 Point for you Sitting Don't Help you get back HP or MANA at all so way sit at all unless you are camping?</DIV>

[Ydiss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xentryx wrote:<BR> <DIV>I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There <EM>is</EM> a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great.</FONT></DIV>

[Kir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xentryx wrote:<BR> <DIV>I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There <EM>is</EM> a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Im glad your liberal about how people play, I think thats the way it should be.  But to come into a discussion on why BoV / SS is a great spell, and not be able to understand why people are talking about how they use it in group situations is kinda interesting.  This was a thread that was to show those people who might not know the "most mana effecient" way to heal, how.  Granted that doesnt mean you HAVE to do it this way or else you will die, but what most of us in this thread minus a couple of argumentitive folks who have no real info, is helping those who want to know the most effecient way how to do it.</P> <P>You say that you never use SS unless they have a mob that AoE's, humor me, and just spend more then 5 minutes like McMallen here, and try it.  Try and at your level, and group make up, see if it really works better then your current method.  If it doesnt great, it doesnt work for you, but if it does then pass that info along to people who dont know so that players in general get better.. why?  Because it means less group exp debt for you =)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Majer]

<blockquote><hr>MacAllen wrote:<DIV>At lvl 27 my ac is > 1500 and my hp > 1200. I was in a group last night with a templar who sat back, did primary heals and was appalled that I would "face the peril" and wade in to melee. I drop 1 BoV on myself before stepping in, which ensures I don't need heals (my BoV's 128hp/click) and, while I don't have l33t m3l33 skillz, I can add 200hp or so of dmg to the fight, and that has more than once turned the tide of a close battle.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>From my perspective, there is a great deal of flexibility that the Inquisitor brings to a fight that no other class can, and that flexibility has me chosen over a Templar every time. Here's how I approach any battle:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1. BoV on the tank BEFORE he engages...this allows you to med the mana back up before engaging. If you wait until after he's engaged, then you not only risk agro (small, but it happens), you also put yourself into combat mode and slow your regen, so you start off -1 BoV's worth of mana.<BR>2. BoV on myself (like I said, I like to get my hands dirty), again allowing med-up time before engaging.<BR>3. Submission on the targetted mob. This is an AoE debuff that reduces the effectiveness of all of them.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>At this point, it varies. If there is no enchanter and it's a multi-pull, I put Heretic on each mob except the last. I know the spell sounds silly, but on a 5 mob pull, the last mob is like 75% dead by the time the tanks get to it, which really helps, especially for such a cheap mana spell. For Rallos' sake, don't use it if there's a chanter in the group, as it breaks every mez and gets you fileted like a Panda by your group.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If things are tight, with lots of adds or AoE's, I'll stay back and focus completely on healing, with SS and PoA to keep everyone alive. Otherwise, I step in and use Oppression and Cleansing to add dps to the fight and bring the mobs down a LOT faster. Keep BoV on the main tank and use Combat Heal to fill in the gaps.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>On a particularly nasty pull, like an Orange ^^ mob, I'll sit back and unload every debuff I have on it, significantly reducing it's effectiveness and increasing ours.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm afraid I have a strong dislike for prissy cleric/templars who stand back, do nothing but heal, and scream "on me!!" and run around when a mob looks at them sideways. The truth hurts, and it's my job to bring it to every vile creature that walks upon the shattered lands.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Amen!!!And those that are still wearing Medium armor, please do us a favor and smite yourself between the eyes repeatedly.Inquisitors are to debuff and heal. And get major argo on top of it, hence the reason we get HEAVY armor. Upgrade your armor and quit yelling and screaming about getting hit.Now I'm not going to become a bloody math guru to figure out formulas. Just see what works for you.Bov is a great spell, SS is to. Just learn when to use and when not to use.

[Ydiss]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ydiss wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xentryx wrote:<BR> <DIV>I guess it all boils down to situation. When i'm in a group thats doing yellows+, ill cast BoV on the tank before he pulls and SS as he is coming in with the pull. That gives me time to cast an armor and str. debuff then follow it by another BoV. If we are doing whites/blues then ill just use BoV, debuffs and heal as needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Inquisitors/Templars adding to the dps of the group...... If you want to do damage then go and solo or re-roll a damage class. Your job is to heal, debuff and be aware of everything around you. I'll occasionally pop off a nuke or 2 during a fight but only if I have the mana and it wont slow us down waiting on me to med.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If we were designed purely to heal and debuff then we'd only have those spells at our disposal. In fact, we're not pure healers and we're not only useful for debuffing. There's very little point in an inquisitor meleeing in a full group, granted. The duration of the battle just doesn't warrant it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>However, in groups of 4 or less, at level 33, I do a significant amount of melee damage over time. Even more in a duo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>That's not to mention our dots. Considering the inquisitor is supposed to be a healer, rather than a damage class, we do sick damage over time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>It's all situational. As is a lot of other aspects of this game (hardly surprising considering we get so many abilities).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This includes SS. In response to the SS debate above, I rarely use it in a fight, except where there is AoE damage to consider. The only other time I'll use it is to pre-heal a tank before a big fight. Why it should be used all the time in order for it to be classed as a great spell, I don't know. That it can be used at all makes it useful and that's all that matters to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't care what anyone says. Heal and debuff only if you like but don't tell me that I should start a new character beacuse I don't like to play the game the same way everyone else does. Finally, an MMO comes along where you have room to do things your own way and people still think we have to heal and debuff and then sit on our hands for the rest of the fight. There <EM>is</EM> a time and a place for that style of play, particularly where power is tight and you're in a bit of trouble, but for 95% of the time I'm getting stuck right in and doing as much damage as my power will allow and still keeping my group alive most of the time to have only died 11 times in 33 levels. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also don't care whether SS is awesome or not. What does it matter? If you use it, great, if you don't, great.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Im glad your liberal about how people play, I think thats the way it should be.  But to come into a discussion on why BoV / SS is a great spell, and not be able to understand why people are talking about how they use it in group situations is kinda interesting.  This was a thread that was to show those people who might not know the "most mana effecient" way to heal, how.  Granted that doesnt mean you HAVE to do it this way or else you will die, but what most of us in this thread minus a couple of argumentitive folks who have no real info, is helping those who want to know the most effecient way how to do it.</P> <P>You say that you never use SS unless they have a mob that AoE's, humor me, and just spend more then 5 minutes like McMallen here, and try it.  Try and at your level, and group make up, see if it really works better then your current method.  If it doesnt great, it doesnt work for you, but if it does then pass that info along to people who dont know so that players in general get better.. why?  Because it means less group exp debt for you =)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>When I said I rarely use it in a fight I meant <EM>in</EM> the fight. I use it a lot more before a fight to give myself a time buffer to land all my debuffs, particularly against tough opposition and boss mobs. For me, SS is a situational spell a lot like many others we have. It is a great spell, I never said it wasn't (I just don't see the point in arguing about what spell is best, people can form their own oppinions from usage) but I don't use it all the time. </P> <P>Why?</P> <P>I don't need to.</P> <P>Benevolence and Repentant both do a good enough job for me and leave me with more power to spend on dots and also mean I have more power at the end of the fight. So long as I have a good tank (and I usually do because we duo/trio) then I really don't need to heal very much at all.</P> <P>It's a case of taste and preference and mine is to not use SS all the time. It would be a total waste of my power because, and this is no lie, a lot of our encounters end without me having cast a single heal during the fight anyway (excluding pre-fight reactives).</P> <P>I appreciate what you're saying, it's cool to share this kind of information. Everyone wants to become a better healer because it's more fun when things go right than when they go wrong. My point was, why argue about it?</P> <P>Next time we have a really tough encounter (one where I know I'll be healing frequently) I'll try using SS exclusively. It might be better, so I'm willing to give it a try. If I'm honest, though, I still think that extra power would be far better spent on keeping Cruel Invocation active on the encounter.</P> <P>Oh, by the way. What's experience debt? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Sebastien]

This entire discussion hurt my eyes. A lot.

[Xilli]

duplicate post<p>Message Edited by Xillith on <span class=date_text>01-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[Xilli]

Exercise extreme caution when casting Soothing Sermon on tanks about to pull. As in, how is your tank pulling and how good is your timing. Pulling with a ranged weapon or small DD does not compare with the aggro caused by Taunt flagged abilities. Therefore if your Soothing Sermon, or group heal, or group buff lands AFTER the pull event expect to get hammered briefly and depending on your equipment and the skill of the back up healer...hammered into debt, perhaps group wipeout debt. This is more true with higher level mobs for whom taunt is not so effective. If you fail to manage aggro you will rapidly become famous as a poor healer and left to sit in LFG mode inexplicably. Like wise, if you do it well expect to be on many friend lists and see invitations to higher level guilds. No healing, no superior content in EQ2.more advice:1. Dont be shy. Inspect the main tank and your group DPS classes. Dont like their equipment? say so. I found that sometimes a lower level fighter has better equipment and is elected unanimously ( by me ) to be the main tank. 2. Be clever. Ask if the rouges weapon pair is green to him/her. If the answer is YES the fights will last longer meaning less power for you. Face it all you tank types out there, its the rouges who kill the mob. Regardless of the main tanks life pool and AC, a long fight is doom to the group without 1-2 solid DPS.3. Be bold. Leave groups you dont like and quickly throw up your LFG flag, this sends a solid message. Sometimes I find myself quickly reinvited to the same group with my needs addressed. Better yet, ask to be the leader.3.5 Be a coward. If the group is dropping like flies, scream and run away. While some may object, a resurection quickly soothes their complaints.4. Provide solutions to your previously stated problems above. Be a weaponsmith or armorer. " Say is that dagger green to you? Look at this one, only 2gp! " etc...5. Most importantly, the back up healer. I prefer the back up healer to NOT be an Inquisitor ( me ) as it limits the overall range of abilities the group gets to be exposed to. Any other healer is a perfect add, though the Templar is also redundant some ways their buffs are far superior ( as opposed to my de-buffs )and are thus MY prefered paired healer.Have fun.***********************Hecate, 29 Inquisitor of Innothule server

[Aephes]

Something that seemed to get lost a little in the fray is that Soothing Sermon will heal the tank <b>or</b> <i>any and all</i> other group members.Perhaps my groups have been fighting in too-dangerous areas or have been employing bad tactics, but there have been a number of times when bad pops or bad calls have led to <i>multiple</i> group members getting aggro at the same time. There are a lot of chanters and backstabbers who owe their lives to my keeping SS up for the duration of the fight. Pop-quiz, hotshot: you've got time for <i>one</i> spot heal - do you use it on the wizzy or the backstabber? Trick question; if you've been able to keep SS up, it's a choice you don't even have to make.Soothing Sermon is also particularly valuable in bad groups. I know, I know, if you're in a bad group it's your own fault, you should bail, etc., etc., ad nauseam, but let's be realistic. If SS will keep everyone alive and well long enough for me to get the last two tainted wretches I need, I'm gonna gut it out.This is longer than I intended it to be, but I'll close by adding that I love the way SS buys me time. As long as it's stacked with BoV on the tank and covering everyone's six, I know I've got some room to maneuver. As always, it should be noted that this is what is working for me at the moment (level 22), and that your playing style may vary. I'm just sharing this in the event that someone else is reading this forum for the same reason I am: to learn something I didn't already know that may help me.The Finn<i>...I don't see a preview button...hope this looks right...</i>

[Xilli]

When SS was new it was very helpfull. Im 30 and I have just recently upgraded it to add-3. I still use it when farming and for mobs who hit fast for lower dammage. It stacks with its upgrade at 29. As you stated it stacks with BoV and its upgrade. The problem with reactive heals is there is chance the reactive proc will not occur. For higher level mobs who hit for 200-350 the reactives are far less efffective and you find yourself chain casting direct heals.As far as who gets healed in a pinch? I heal the rouge. He can evacuate us and has the first priority. I have the group order to " Punch us out of here! Evacuate!! " macro bound. The wiz cannot effect that power. I give the order becuase The others may or may not be focusing on my power during a brawl. One can only hope its obeyed. Otherwise I use the full group heal and then individual ones on the members still under attack. Hopefully by then aggro is under control.HecateBrotherhood of ArmsInnothule