Someone tell me that I am missing something!

[Melfius]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Been doing quite a bit of raiding recently with the wonderful folks of the Blackaces Guild on Blackburrow.  One of the nice things they do is set a specific channel for all types of parses, including one specifically for healing.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Here's what I am seeing:  As a Templar, I know that massive amounts of DPS just aren't going to happen.  No biggie, I knew that going into to playing to begin with.  Templars are great healers, right?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Then why do I always seem to be pulling up the rear-end on the parses, ranking behind every other healing class I have raided with, including the Paladins?!?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Someone PLEASE tell me I am missing something!  My heals, even though they have massive amounts of punch to them, seem to me to take way too long to cast, then way too long to recast.  My cures are nice, but I seem to be missing the chance to use them while I wait for one of my heals to finish casting.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Can someone, ANYONE, tell me what I am doing wrong?  I'm more than happy to supply whatever information you need to "diagnose" my issue, so all you Templar Troubleshooters lend me a hand, eh?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Thanks!</FONT></DIV>

[Gagla]

<DIV>It depends on a few things, how are you specced?</DIV> <DIV>Increased casting speed down the inelligence line helps alot, in my opinion...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you in the MT group?</DIV> <DIV>If you're not MT Templar, I wouldn't expect to be in the top 5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you casting debuffs?</DIV> <DIV>Mark goes a long way, it procs so often.... you can assume it will proc for everyone who will melee. It adds up.</DIV>

[Kizee]

<DIV>You would think that templars would be the best healers but sadly shamans are the best buffers/debuffers and healers since they block everybodies heals with their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] wards. :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You should easly parse under them tho.</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Parsers for "who is doing most dps" or "who is doing most healing" are a complete and utter waste of time. For dps its all about group makeup and debuffs, for priests (assuming a modcum of competence) its type and locn in raid. Unless its an AoE heavy fight (when druids in non MT groups will excel), parse will normally go: MT shaman > MT cleric > rest, purely becaue the order that heals are applied Ward>Reactive>Regen.  Crusaders, miracles and who is doing most curing (non-logged) may skew this. That said, Templars, unless maintaining the single target reactive, reverence and debuffing, don't contribute much to a raid outside the MT group, and won't even be able to heal their own group much - one trick ponys. <div></div>

[Gagla]

<DIV>The few times I've been put in a group other than MT, I've always found myself wondering who really needs my buffs... I guess the wizard who likes to fusion on the pull could use a stoneskin... and a health buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yeah, Don't expect much outside MT group.</DIV>

[Calare]

<div></div><div></div>Alot of your parse numbers are going to depend on who else is in the group with you.  If you are in a group with a shaman, the shamans ward procs before your reactives so they get the heal numbers on the parser and your reactives proc after their ward has been used up.  Also if you aren't in a MT/secondary grp you probably aren't doing a whole lot more than spot healing which in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of heals in comparison to what the MT templar would be doing. AA's can help - if you increase your crit heal % and Facile Grace will allow you to cast your heals faster thus casting more in theory.  Upgraded spells (ad 3 - master) will obviously increase your heals as well as Symetry or Healing Pulse addages on items will also increase your healing amounts. Make sure you have your grp reactive up as well as Mark of Celestial and Involuntary Restoration on the mob as those will all proc fairly good heals. Mostly, it doesnt really matter what you parse as long as you are keeping your raid alive.  Chances are you are doing fine, but if you aren't in the MT group I can tell you from experience that your numbers will look really bad. Buffs outside of MT group can be tricky.  Any spare tanks in your group should be tank buffed just in case (that means redoubt, glory of combat and unyielding benefaction).  I usually put praetorate on myself to help boost my power/resists unless a tank/off tank needs the str (which they really shouldnt need) and then with the extra slot I either give myself redoubt, give a scout glory of combat or give a second tank redoubt again.  Mages probably wont live long enough to make use of stoneskin in 90% of the cases where they pull aggro, they either deaggro or die before it will really proc. Calare Nebra 70 Templar Paragon Everfrost <div></div><p>Message Edited by Calare on <span class="date_text">01-20-2007</span> <span class="time_text">10:22 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Calare on <span class=date_text>01-20-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 PM</span>

[SG_01]

IMO heal parses are an utter waste of time. It's totally dendant on when you heal, to get a better spot. If you really want to get on top of that parse, why not heal everyone who needs 1 point of health? Templar reactives may be overwritten, big heals may come when someone else's heal has already landed.Really, it's more important to keep everyone alive than to be on top of the parse.

[tebion]

<div><blockquote><hr>SG_01 wrote:Really, it's more important to keep everyone alive than to be on top of the parse.<hr></blockquote>QFE!</div>

[Melfius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SG_01 wrote:<BR>IMO heal parses are an utter waste of time. It's totally dendant on when you heal, to get a better spot. If you really want to get on top of that parse, why not heal everyone who needs 1 point of health? Templar reactives may be overwritten, big heals may come when someone else's heal has already landed.<BR><BR>Really, it's more important to keep everyone alive than to be on top of the parse.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Oh, don't get me wrong.  I am in full agreement here.  I'm not concerned with being the "Top o' the Parse".  My concern is that I was (mistakenly, it turns out) under the impression that Templars were supposed to be uber-healers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>More fool me, eh?</FONT></P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melfius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SG_01 wrote:<BR>IMO heal parses are an utter waste of time. It's totally dendant on when you heal, to get a better spot. If you really want to get on top of that parse, why not heal everyone who needs 1 point of health? Templar reactives may be overwritten, big heals may come when someone else's heal has already landed.<BR><BR>Really, it's more important to keep everyone alive than to be on top of the parse.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>Oh, don't get me wrong.  I am in full agreement here.  I'm not concerned with being the "Top o' the Parse".  My concern is that I was (mistakenly, it turns out) under the impression that Templars were supposed to be uber-healers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc66>More fool me, eh?</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not any more. </P> <P>SoE got the foolish impression that all healers should heal the same and it was all downhill from there for templars.</P>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>People have mentioned it's a function of circumstance.  Add to that the order of healing mentioned...  In general, the easier something you're fighting is, the higher up shaman will be in healing parses. (Paladins have wards as well)The only times I am able to beat a shaman in healing parses is if we're fighting something difficult that punches through the wards, *and* it hits often enough to make reactives trigger quicker than the recast(or quick enough).  I personally never use single reactives as there's almost always another cleric doing that, so that would entail group reacts with a 15s recast(meaning I'm in the MT group).  With 3/4ths of my time free, I direct heal or use our bag of tricks to alternately heal.As mentioned, druids will do pretty well on AE battles, but Mark of the Celestial will as well... the dozens people procing add up quickly.It's actually pretty sad what we offer non-tanking groups.  Reactives are not meant to spot heal or get DPS classes back up.  Our direct heals are slow besides.  It should be a challenge for any Templar to heal a side group as well as they can an MT group.  Forget about parsing high doing it.Pretty much healing parses are not nearly as important or useful as DPS parses.  Under the best circumstances, they can't tell you a lot.<div></div>

[Dillin]

<DIV>As a Templar, if you want to be high on the heal parse you need to be doing everything possible and set your Templar up to heal as a raid Templar.  Although as others have said, it depends on the fight and location in the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I have moved away from trying to do DPS on all of my Healers, that's for Scouts and Mages to do, not a healer.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For AAs, you would want max heal crits and add % to proc heals.  Of course, this is still situational but you can minimize that.  If it's a trash mob or an "easy" fight you just won't do a lot of healing, instead concentrate on patching up other groups, rezzing, and debuffing.  Your 3 debuffs (2 have heal proc chances) will proc on ANYONE IN THE RAID.  That's important as it will help the raid as a whole and assist groups that 1 healer might be having a hard time keeping up.  Also, keeping Reverence up on the MT is a big must.  Most of the MTs I know are total power [Removed for Content].  And for new content, don't be afraid to conserve power and not DPS.  You'll be the hero if at the end of the fight you saved your power and can still heal the MT instead of being the zero with high DPS, a dead MT, and a mob that is still alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play around with it and next thing you know, you'll be parsing in the top 3 if not winning the heal parse.  Although i don't play my Templar much anymore the last time I did to prove to my RL that our Templars weren't doing everything they can, I stayed high on the parse all night and even won some. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In closing, if you want to raid, stick with what a Templar does and that's heal.  Knowing what your class can do, it's benefits, and it's limitations is what will make you the best.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cybst0rm on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[da5idblacksun]

I'd like to second the notion that Templars are pretty useless outside the MT group.   Sad.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQAditu wrote:<BR> Pretty much healing parses are not nearly as important or useful as DPS parses.  Under the best circumstances, they can't tell you a lot.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly what he said.  All heal parsing is good for is telling you who isn't paying attention.  </P> <P>Your reactives only count once damage punches thorough.  And while you are casting your single time heal, a druid HoT may already be going.  Parses mean nothing.  </P>

[Dillin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> da5idblacksun wrote:<BR>I'd like to second the notion that Templars are pretty useless outside the MT group.   Sad.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I totally disagree.  If a raid group outside of the MT group is dying, it usually isn't the fault of the healer.  Either they a) Dont' know or have a bad strat, b) Aren't following the strat, c) Are over DPSing and pulling aggro, or d) have poor gear for raiding.  Any of those situations is difficult for ANY healer to overcome.  Templars buff the most HP of any healer class with comparable spell lvls and have the most ways to "special" heal that benefit the raid as a whole and are fire and forget then any other healer class.

[Whitemane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> da5idblacksun wrote:<BR>I'd like to second the notion that Templars are pretty useless outside the MT group.   Sad.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Horsepoop. Totally disagree.</P> <P> Will you parse higher in the MT group? Sure if you are being, lazy, However even outside of the MT group I will still parse in the Top 3 Easily. Especailly since the changes to Involuntary restoration.  If you dont you are not "Being all you can be" as a Templar. Life is simply easier in the MT group. </P> <P>I'm not debating that our buffs etc are definately geared for Tanking healing wise all you loose out of the MT group is the group reactive and the Death Prevention spell. If you are using all the tools you have you should not be "loosing" the parse that badly not unless you have like 3-4 clerics and are running into stacking issues. Even then Mark of .. and Involuntary give you a huge "cheat" in the parses.</P> <P>Also I do agree that all that counts is "Did the Tank live" Anything else is secondary. </P> <P>But the notion that Templars suck outside the MT group is just silly. Easier yes. Useless no. </P>

[Whitemane]

Yup totally agree. They can sometimes tell you who isnt paying attention but thats about it. In our Raids our Fury parses maybe 5% to the total healed on average according to the parses. Doesnt seem like much does it. But I can tell you we sure know when he is not around. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQAditu wrote:<BR> Pretty much healing parses are not nearly as important or useful as DPS parses.  Under the best circumstances, they can't tell you a lot.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly what he said.  All heal parsing is good for is telling you who isn't paying attention.  </P> <P>Your reactives only count once damage punches thorough.  And while you are casting your single time heal, a druid HoT may already be going.  Parses mean nothing.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kizee]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whitemane wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> da5idblacksun wrote:<BR>I'd like to second the notion that Templars are pretty useless outside the MT group.   Sad.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Horsepoop. Totally disagree.</P> <P> Will you parse higher in the MT group? Sure if you are being, lazy, However even outside of the MT group I will still parse in the Top 3 Easily. Especailly since the changes to Involuntary restoration.  If you dont you are not "Being all you can be" as a Templar. Life is simply easier in the MT group. </P> <P>I'm not debating that our buffs etc are definately geared for Tanking healing wise all you loose out of the MT group is the group reactive and the Death Prevention spell. If you are using all the tools you have you should not be "loosing" the parse that badly not unless you have like 3-4 clerics and are running into stacking issues. Even then Mark of .. and Involuntary give you a huge "cheat" in the parses.</P> <P>Also I do agree that all that counts is "Did the Tank live" Anything else is secondary. </P> <P>But the notion that Templars suck outside the MT group is just silly. Easier yes. Useless no. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We actually lose alot more than that if we arnt in MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) We lose single taget reactive since the MT cleric would probally be casting that too and what good is a reactive heal going to do to heal anybody other than the MT since that person needs to be getting hit for it to proc?</DIV> <DIV>2.) We lose the group reactive for obvious reasons.</DIV> <DIV>3.) We lose focused Intercession.</DIV> <DIV>4.) We lose our death pervention spell.</DIV> <DIV>5.) We lose our stoneskin since what good is that going to do on anybody other than the MT.</DIV> <DIV>6.) We lose Mark of the Celestial because if there is another templar in the raid they don't stack. (depends who gets thiers off first)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is left?</DIV> <DIV>We get to spam our 2 slow casting, power hogging direct heals, reverance , spurn and involuntary restoration with an occasional group heal thrown in for AOE's (if you can beat the druid group regen that is)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like fun eh? Not really. :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Whitemane]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><snippity></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We actually lose alot more than that if we arnt in MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) We lose single taget reactive since the MT cleric would probally be casting that too and what good is a reactive heal going to do to heal anybody other than the MT since that person needs to be getting hit for it to proc?</DIV> <DIV>2.) We lose the group reactive for obvious reasons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.) We lose focused Intercession.</DIV> <DIV>4.) We lose our death pervention spell.</DIV> <DIV>5.) We lose our stoneskin since what good is that going to do on anybody other than the MT.</DIV> <DIV>6.) We lose Mark of the Celestial because if there is another templar in the raid they don't stack. (depends who gets thiers off first)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is left?</DIV> <DIV>We get to spam our 2 slow casting, power hogging direct heals, reverance , spurn and involuntary restoration with an occasional group heal thrown in for AOE's (if you can beat the druid group regen that is)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like fun eh? Not really. :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I stand by what I said before, Kizee you are totally correct we do loose effectiveness outside the MT group, but its not going to matter THAT much as far as the parse goes with the exception of the group reactive.  Its part of the reason that I dont think Heal parses are really all that much of great indicator. I can beat our defiler on the heal parses nearly at will. Its actually pretty easy, you just have to know how to cheat. ( and length of the fight, remember Im cheating here ;p )</P> <P> Mark of is debatable as the MT group Templar should be worried about stabilising the MT before he casts that which should mean the Templar out of the MT group is going to get theirs proc'ing first.</P> <P>Death Prevention is meh as well it dont count on the parse and hehe hopefully you arent using it. Warden with the AA's death prevention is better anyways.</P> <P>StoneSkin dont count on the Heal parse either though especailly with AA's this is a HUGE benefit to whomever is getting beat on.</P> <P>Focused Intercession I do not use often as I do not like being stunned. I do use it and it is a great spell but its not a commonly used spell. Great for pulls or when Im low on power and need a few to regenerate some mana. THat said It does not add a huge amount to my parse numbers. With a 2 minute recast I doubt its going to effect much overall. ( Hehe I miss the t5 days were you could remove the stun effect ;p ).</P> <P>Our group heal will beat a druids regen as its instant ( its effect) unless of course your group was barely wounded and then I wouldnt bother anyways =D.</P> <P>So yeah not near as much fun as being in the MT group but we shouldnt plummet to the bottom of the parse either remember all the healers not in the MT group loose their group / specailty heals as well so ...</P> <P> </P>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>Well since the latter part of this conversation got sparked by something I said, I thought I would clarify what I meant.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">It's actually pretty sad what we offer non-tanking groups.  Reactives are not meant to spot heal or get DPS classes back up.  Our direct heals are slow besides.  It should be a challenge for any Templar to heal a side group as well as they can an MT group.  Forget about parsing high doing it.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>I specifically said I was talking about what we offered non-tanking groups.  Reactives do poorly for solo healing a DPS class that gets hit infrequently and hard.  I didn't mean doing single reactives on the MT because that's outside of the group, and I didn't really mean Mark/Involuntary as any Templar can do it, and it only affects your group by 1/4th theoretically.  Anyhow, I did <b>not </b>mean any of what I said for that segment in heal parsing terms.  Specifically I meant how well could a Templar affect their side group compared to how another healer type could.  I guess I meant more than just healing.<div></div>

[R/T93]

<DIV>Blessing line final ability</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Case closed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A templar is put in the MT group for maximum survivability.  Whats the difference than a templar put in a non MT group??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any raid group in the game would be more than happy to recieve the same "uber" buff that dirges have for procs.  I know plenty of DPS classes in my raids that are begging for a 2nd templar and dirge to join a badass scout/mage dps group.  When scout poisons are proccing 8 times a minute rather than 5.5, and have 60% crits, you [I cannot control my vocabulary] right a templar has something to offer to a non MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar gives a group more than 1000hp, ability of a 2k group heal at will almost, 25-3200 single target heals.  Keep your group reactive up thats another 500 pt buffer for an AE.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus any templar with 450 INT can deal 1000 dps on a single target if went down the Holy Smite line all the way.  I want to see if i can do 1500 on a single target undead when i get the ability in 4 more points.</DIV>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>I'm skeptical that the benefit of all the proc buffs like Blessings can be easily be determined by looking at the % chance or PPM listed on a spell/item.Aside from the fact that Luck of the Dirge and Blessings say they do different things and yet affect the examines of items/spells equally... being that it says Blessings doesn't affect spells, but does, is kinda weird.  I'll ignore that oddity for now.  BUT, if you put a templar, and two dirges together, I know for a fact that in the examine windows of items/spells that it goes up for all three.I have never seen a statistic buff stack among the same class until this <i>supposed</i> time.  I find it hard to beleive two dirges would have stacking buffs, so then I have to wonder how much I should trust the examine numbers when Templars and Dirges are grouped.More to the point of your reply, R/T93...  It's admirable to list all of the things we <i>can </i>offer to a side group... but how does that compare to other healers?  Inquisitors have single DPS buffs, group haste/INT buffs and more or less the same <b>in-group</b> healing, while it's much harder for them to run out of power.  I won't go into the other 4 priests because it would take too long.  But my earlier point was that we do better in the MT group than outside.<div></div>

[Tash 1]

<DIV><FONT color=#cccccc size=2></FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT color=#cccccc>There was a time when I was greatly upset if not in the MT group. And felt I didn’t do anything useful for the raid. Now a days I’m not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT color=#cccccc>First if there are 2 clerics in the raid I always suggest that the cleric outside keep the single reactive up and the one in MT keep the group reactive up. This gives the MT Cleric time to cure more often and we all know cures and debuffs make day and night to raid. Second it spread hate! No one loves a dead healer. Third is saves mana for the clerics since our reactives are way more mana effective than direct heals.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT color=#cccccc>And templars are Great healers don’t let anyone say anything else I can just speak for myself but I often end up first on heal pharsers even with ward-classes. Even if their heals trigger first due to the way the wards works Templars heal for more hits and since there no way the wards can stand for the amount of pounding a raid MT gets our reactives heal for their full potential. Pushing us up in pharser. (I do how ever agree that one should be careful with looking at healing numbers)<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT color=#cccccc>Outside the MT group where I take care of single reactives I end up at the top three. So having two clerics isn’t a bad idea anyway. And outside the MT group I can often have the luxury to beat some at the mob with my nice big hammer. Clerics like to hit things didn’t you know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT color=#cccccc>/Tash <SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>

[Maheret]

when in MT group, on the long fights I am 99% always on  top of the parser, on the shorter fights, 2nd or 3rd and on the trash 3rd or 4th on the list. So the longer the fight, the higher I parse. Funny tho I did notice that the few times I wasnt in the mt group, the templar didnt place as high as me <span>when I am :smileytongue:</span>But like someone said, I dont try to top the list, thats the best way to run out of power before the end of the fight. The key as I see it is paceing yourself to maximize your power. When the fight gets rough and healers are running out of power, I am usually the last one to run out,  And I do not have the best gear or the highest mana pool of the healers. Just mana conservation as I learned in EQ1 and healing at the right time and using the right spells in the right circumstance should do it for you. Practice till you find what works best for you.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>We actually lose alot more than that if we arnt in MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) We lose single taget reactive since the MT cleric would probally be casting that too and what good is a reactive heal going to do to heal anybody other than the MT since that person needs to be getting hit for it to proc?</DIV> <DIV>2.) We lose the group reactive for obvious reasons.</DIV> <DIV>3.) We lose focused Intercession.</DIV> <DIV>4.) We lose our death pervention spell.</DIV> <DIV>5.) We lose our stoneskin since what good is that going to do on anybody other than the MT.</DIV> <DIV>6.) We lose Mark of the Celestial because if there is another templar in the raid they don't stack. (depends who gets thiers off first)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is left?</DIV> <DIV>We get to spam our 2 slow casting, power hogging direct heals, reverance , spurn and involuntary restoration with an occasional group heal thrown in for AOE's (if you can beat the druid group regen that is)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like fun eh? Not really. :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'll agree with Kizee we do lose some effectiveness outside the MT group but I think we still contribute a lot.    </P> <P>1) I'll agree with you on the single target reactive.  I don't use it outside the MT group unless I'm in a group where another tank is holding adds.</P> <P>2) My group reactive works just fine if I'm in a group of melee.  I may not be an ideal choice but those reactives keep those people up longer and DPSing.</P> <P>3) That I'll give you as well.</P> <P>4) We don't lose it, you just toss it on someone in your group that is about to die.  In the next line you use the example of another Templar being there so you wouldn't need it on the main tank anyways.</P> <P>5) It does anyone who is getting hit good.  *shrug*</P> <P>6) IF there is another Templar, yeah it's about who gets it off first.  I don't see MoC as a wondrous amazing thing though.  Involuntary Healing can definitely make a difference.</P> <P>What else do we have?  Sanctuary to keep people from being stunned/feared/etc... cures, a physical mit debuff which once again depends on if you're the only Templar, atoning fate which will help heal your group, reverence which is a great toy to toss on a caster who got smacked, Glory of Battle which also helps the group you are in.  </P> <P>Sorry Kizee, I respect you as one of the more experienced Templars around here, but I think the term useless is just a bit inaccurate.  :smileyhappy:</P> <P>The Templar is ideal in a MT group, but can still function in a melee group.</P>

[FluffyDestroyerofWorlds]

<div><blockquote><hr>Cybst0rm wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> da5idblacksun wrote:I'd like to second the notion that Templars are pretty useless outside the MT group.   Sad. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I totally disagree.  If a raid group outside of the MT group is dying, it usually isn't the fault of the healer.  Either they a) Dont' know or have a bad strat, b) Aren't following the strat, c) Are over DPSing and pulling aggro, or d) have poor gear for raiding.  Any of those situations is difficult for ANY healer to overcome.  Templars buff the most HP of any healer class with comparable spell lvls and have the most ways to "special" heal that benefit the raid as a whole and are fire and forget then any other healer class.<hr></blockquote>I have to agree with Cyb.  I haven't done a lot of raiding with my templar yet (he's still a baby), but even with mystic/defiler wards trumping the stack-order of effectiveness, I have seen my reactives proc in between ward casts.  The point is to slay the beasties with the maximum number of players standing in the end.  I have also found that it is not at all useless to be a healer for a group of melee DPS.   So, anyway, yeah.There ya go <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Regards,Smoothie Le'Clot - 70 RangerClide vonShine - 59 TemplarShadows & DustMistmoore</div>

[SG_01]

Let's not forget that healing non-MT groups is just as important as healing the MT group itself. Especially in melee-dps groups templars can use their healing spells to a good advantage with dealing with AEs, ripostes, DSs, etc. Mark does btw stack, to my knowledge (at least I've seen it 2 or more times on a single mob before). In melee groups GoC is a very nice spell to keep up, as well as your group reactive for countering the AE itself, and some other spells. And since you have a bit more free time, cast some heal outside your group, or actually help the DPS a bit (every bit of dps helps, don't confine yourself too much here). Let's not forget that with AE stuns, your sanctuary will be a blessing in any group of the raid./waves to MoloHey there <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by SG_01 on <span class=date_text>01-23-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 PM</span>

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>SG_01 wrote:...Mark does btw stack, to my knowledge (at least I've seen it 2 or more times on a single mob before)....<hr></blockquote>I'm afraid that seeing two icons does not mean it is stacking. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> Think of it as our group reactive...  Sure you can have two clerics cast it and have both up, but they cannot be said to be stacking... one is merely dormant until the first one fades, then becomes active.  It is the same with MoC and Involuntary Healer. You can have as many icons showing as you want, but only the first one cast(oldest) will be procing.  You will never see one proc then the other, then the first.  The second only starts procing when it becomes the oldest by the other one fading or being redebuffed.  Go try it for yourself...  find a battle and make sure that both are up and check the parses... you won't have procs by two different people interwoven... just in large blocks of duration as one fades.  Or a simpler test... make sure someone else casts first, then cast yours.  For at least a minute, you will not be healing anything unless they prematurely redebuff.</div>

[SG_01]

<blockquote><hr>EQAditu wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>SG_01 wrote:...Mark does btw stack, to my knowledge (at least I've seen it 2 or more times on a single mob before)....<hr></blockquote>I'm afraid that seeing two icons does not mean it is stacking. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> Think of it as our group reactive...  Sure you can have two clerics cast it and have both up, but they cannot be said to be stacking... one is merely dormant until the first one fades, then becomes active.  It is the same with MoC and Involuntary Healer. You can have as many icons showing as you want, but only the first one cast(oldest) will be procing.  You will never see one proc then the other, then the first.  The second only starts procing when it becomes the oldest by the other one fading or being redebuffed.  Go try it for yourself...  find a battle and make sure that both are up and check the parses... you won't have procs by two different people interwoven... just in large blocks of duration as one fades.  Or a simpler test... make sure someone else casts first, then cast yours.  For at least a minute, you will not be healing anything unless they prematurely redebuff.</div><hr></blockquote>Hrmm, I can see how that works for the proc, but how about the debuff that's also on it?

[R2D2s_Lovechild]

<p>For the past few months I've been in a new raiding guild, and when I first joined I was welcomed into the MT group at raids, and I was always close to the top of the list on parsers. Now however, I've been superceded, because a better equipped Templar has joined us. I'm coming out bottom, simply because I'm not sure what to do outside the MT group. It's harsh, and I've grown to hate parsers. It really does make you feel like your not pulling your weight. Even being in the MA group doesn't cut it sometimes. </p><p>I'm seriously going to have to re-evaluate my raiding strategy. learning how to heal outside the MT group as a Templar is a whole new ball game. It's actually putting me off playing him. </p><p>I shall have to read up on this forum, and see how to adapt to not being the MT Templar. But quite frankly right now, I'm not that enamoured with being a Templar outside the MT group.</p>

[R/T93]

<p>Lovechild,</p><p> I am in the exact same Boat as you.  I recently joined a new guild and they have a better equipped templar and one who is much more superior in rank than me in the guild, so sometimes i get thrown into some wierd group setups.  I sometimes take the place of the fury in the mage group, due to my Proc buff, and believe it or not, am able to keep a group up very well by my lonesome.  Glory of COmbat can be put on multiple targets.  I was in a group as the solo healer on The last named in FTH, and put up Gallantry, and 4 GLory of COmbat buffs throughout my group.  Between my large group heal, and the 4 glory of combats, i was able to get my group in the green after being kicked down to 10% after one group heal, and about 10 seconds of proccing.  </p><p>Templar healing is all Situational, so take your situation and adapt to it.</p><p>I was a single healer in a chel drak raid and healed for 150k, mt group had defiler temp and warden in it.  The next closest healer healed hardly 100k.  Use your power well, your big heal can heal for 2500+, use it when you see a scout in the red, the MT healers will take care of the tank 90% of the time.  If you are healing an offtank, and you see him going down, pop off your single target instant, your single target reactive, and your Stun heal, and watch his hp hit the green.</p>

[R2D2s_Lovechild]

<p>Thanks for the input R/T93. I didn't realise Glory of Combat was useable on multiple targets! My mistake in my buffs is that I've combined several of them in macros to make buffing MTs/MAs easier. I guess I shall have to change that. We're off to DT tomorrow night, so I will adapt my buffs, and see how it goes. I'm also (hopefully) winning Glorious Intercession M1 tonight on a dkp bid. </p><p>Any other Templar tips for raiding outside the MT group I will happily take onboard. </p><p>Thanks again! <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[ParlMoebius]

<p>Im surprised that it looks like nobody has mentioned Holy Redoubt either... unless its just taken for granted that its there.</p><p>But with the changes to combat skills... having that extra buff for not just HP but also offensive skills in a melee DPS group; its nothing to sneeze at.</p>

[Kocia]

<p>You also don't realize that properly specced Heal Paladin should and will always take 5th-6th place on a heal parse (depending on how good that nonMT group fury is and how much aoe damage was dealt), and a templar outside of MT group is really not optimal in a raid encounter that doesn't need split tanking.</p><p>As other's mentioned your role is not to top the parse, it is to step in when and if the main group templar goes down.  You can then save the day.  Some things just can't be parsed.</p>