Reverence and ACT?

[StevusX]

<DIV>Does anyone know if you can get the Reverence heal from the Advanced Combat Tracker parse ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I gather this shows as a self heal on the tank in the soe data because of the way it works but even looking at the tanks heal parse </DIV> <DIV>i cant seem to identify the healing from reverence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>would like to get some idea how much healing this does in a group/raid compared to our other heals as i use it a lot....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>certainly seems to do well when i use it on myself soloing !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thanks for any info you can provide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dra]

<DIV>While I too would like to see how much it does, I don't want the dev's changing the way the spell works to make it parse. Why? Because hate seems to be based upon who owns the particular spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now I can use Reverence on the MT before the pull without any hate. That gives him the ability to heal himself for a little bit before the reactives land and start building hate, not only that but if healing hate is built the MT is the one that gets the credit for it and not the Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If ownership for the spell were assigned to the Templar the MT loses the extra hate generation the healing is building, plus the Templar now can't use the spell on pulls without the mob ping ponging.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can estimate the theoretical maximum Reverence can heal by taking the tanks total power consumed and multiplying it by the Master version of the spell which is 210%. In practice though, if the tank is at full health or you delay the refresh it will be less than that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wastura]

Going to have to agree with drats here. Healing agro is serious crap too, especially on high dps mobs. For example, last night we were in FTH and the guild illusionist had to dump my agro.

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wastura wrote:<BR> Going to have to agree with drats here. Healing agro is serious crap too, especially on high dps mobs. For example, last night we were in FTH and the guild illusionist had to dump my agro.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Healing agro? Whats that?</P> <P>I seriously have to do something stupid like casting my reactives before a pull to get agro and the only time I would get agro from that is if the initial taunt was resisted.</P> <P>IMO healing agro is nonexsistant if you have a compitant tank and group makeup.</P>

[Wastura]

<P>Let's see, in a 90 second battle healing 60k damage against the tank while the top dps does 55k damage on the mob and the MT does about 30k, reactives absoluting on the pull or yield wipes.....</P> <P>Yeah, healing agro exsists. Long fights with multiple dps'er dying or mem-wipes where the dps has to back off momentarily....</P> <P>Tactician's armor....</P> <P>You're entitled to your opinion I suppose, but I'll take reverence giving the tank agro versus me anyday, in fact I would take 0 on the heal parse if the tank got all the agro for my heals, any day.</P>

[Bjerde]

You really can't get heal aggro from normal healing. There needs to be a mem wipe or reactive before pull if you are getting aggro.Tactitian specifically targets healers during the fight.You will see him say "You shall heal no more!! "  and go for a healer, that is him...not heal aggro.<div></div>

[Wastura]

Tell you what, go to the shaman forums and tell them heal agro doesn't exsist. Just because you haven't healed to that level yet doesn't mean it doesn't exsist.

[Kizee]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wastura wrote:<BR> <P>Let's see, in a 90 second battle healing 60k damage against the tank while the top dps does 55k damage on the mob and the MT does about 30k, reactives absoluting on the pull or yield wipes.....</P> <P>Yeah, healing agro exsists. Long fights with multiple dps'er dying or mem-wipes where the dps has to back off momentarily....</P> <P>Tactician's armor....</P> <P>You're entitled to your opinion I suppose, but I'll take reverence giving the tank agro versus me anyday, in fact I would take 0 on the heal parse if the tank got all the agro for my heals, any day.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dunno. </DIV> <DIV>I really don't have any problems. I healed 248k one fight and never pulled agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, you will pull agro with reverance if the tank gets poped and his taunt gets resisted. The mob will go straight for you.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> Wastura wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>Tell you what, go to the shaman forums and tell them heal agro doesn't exsist. Just because you haven't healed to that level yet doesn't mean it doesn't exsist.<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Our guild shamans don't have any problem with agro either unless they do something stupid also.</P> <P>Maybe we are just blessed with really good tanks. :p</P>

[Wastura]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wastura wrote:<BR> <P>Let's see, in a 90 second battle healing 60k damage against the tank while the top dps does 55k damage on the mob and the MT does about 30k, reactives absoluting on the pull or yield wipes.....</P> <P>Yeah, healing agro exsists. Long fights with multiple dps'er dying or mem-wipes where the dps has to back off momentarily....</P> <P>Tactician's armor....</P> <P>You're entitled to your opinion I suppose, but I'll take reverence giving the tank agro versus me anyday, in fact I would take 0 on the heal parse if the tank got all the agro for my heals, any day.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I dunno.</DIV> <DIV>I really don't have any problems. I healed 248k one fight and never pulled agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, you will pull agro with reverance if the tank gets poped and his taunt gets resisted. The mob will go straight for you.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Wastura wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>Tell you what, go to the shaman forums and tell them heal agro doesn't exsist. Just because you haven't healed to that level yet doesn't mean it doesn't exsist.<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Our guild shamans don't have any problem with agro either unless they do something stupid also.</P> <P>Maybe we are just blessed with really good tanks. :p</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>In most raids and situations no, you shouldn't have agro problems. The point I'm making is that healing does have agro and it is possible to agro yourself with healing. Case in point, taunt is resisted with nothing more than Reverence, you get agro. But if that healing agro was all on the tank, not only would the healer benefit, but the entire raid could spike and output even more dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I can heal a lot more than 60k without gaining agro on a mob, especially if that healing is done over a long period of time. Mistress of the Veil a good example. A shaman with wards on the pull can and will gain a lot of agro, if he chains in everything he has around 14-18k worth that the mob eats through, the assassin will be lower on the agro charts than the mystic until the fight goes longer and the assassin's dps outdoes the agro done via healing.</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div><div></div>Shadowknight damageshield/reactive heal is afaik the only heal that gives the recipient all the hate.  (So ditch those useless paladins - every raid NEEDS a SK <span><span><span>:smileywink:</span></span></span> )When playing templar on raids reverence is one of the very first things I cast after the pull, as you know the MT will be burning power like crazy then, and except for the odd suicidal paladin won't have much in the way of wards up.  Its also nice and fast to cast.The whole pre-cast / don't thing seems to have pretty definite views.  I pre-cast on easy mobs, don't on hard/social ones.  On hard ones though, the tank is at major risk of dying.A bit off topic, but for hard raid mobs this is the order I usePre-Cast<ul><li>Sanctuary</li></ul>Cast<ol><li>Reverence</li><li>Single Target Reactive</li><li>Divine Recovery (Strangely enough for such a nice group buff, Divine Recovery does NOT seem to generate much aggro, but that is why I don't cast it the very first - MT groupmates LOVE that spell on the pull)</li><li>Group Reactive</li><li>Mark</li><li>Involuntary</li><li>Spurn</li><li>Single Target Reactive</li><li>Any debuff that didn't stick ...</li></ol><div></div>For easy onesPre-Cast <ul><li>Group Reactive</li></ul> Cast <ol><li>Mark</li><li>Involuntary</li><li>Spurn</li></ol><p>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>Healing aggro exists, but it's a manageable "feature."  It certainly does not generate the same amount of hate as damage does, and even still.... I am curious what mob in FTH you were fighting where a "top healer" only healed 60k and that was more than the top damage dealer.... that just seems odd to me.  Manaburn alone can top 55k.EDIT:  I always pre-ward, and I do die sometimes, but it's not a common occurence.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>01-04-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wastura wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>In most raids and situations no, you shouldn't have agro problems. The point I'm making is that healing does have agro and it is possible to agro yourself with healing. Case in point, taunt is resisted with nothing more than Reverence, you get agro. But if that healing agro was all on the tank, not only would the healer benefit, but the entire raid could spike and output even more dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I can heal a lot more than 60k without gaining agro on a mob, especially if that healing is done over a long period of time. Mistress of the Veil a good example. A shaman with wards on the pull can and will gain a lot of agro, if he chains in everything he has around 14-18k worth that the mob eats through, the assassin will be lower on the agro charts than the mystic until the fight goes longer and the assassin's dps outdoes the agro done via healing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So have them stop precasting wards on the situations you are actually finding healers getting aggro.  Yes I personally saw healer aggro last night.  We had a Warden who kept precasting a group ward which would end up wiping us.  </P> <P>Are you saying a majority of raid mobs are a problem like this and strats can't be adjusted?  I'll admit I haven't raided much of EoF yet, but I haven't noticed this in the standard KoS stuff yet.</P>

[Mabes]

<P>As far as aggro goes, it takes 4hp of heals to equal the same aggro level as 1 point of damage.  Meaning you can heal for 1000 hp, and it's like you attacked the mob for 250 damage, as far as aggro levels go.  In raids, I precast reactives every fight, and very rarely get aggro, if anyone gets it, it's the defiler.  If you're often getting aggro right off pull in a raid, then you either need a better tank, or need some better group setups.</P> <P>As far as grouping goes, yeah you'll get aggro right away if you pre-cast reactives, I'd suggest waiting till after pull in those situations.</P> <P>But yeah, as far as the original topic, I do wish they made it so Reverence could be parsed to the appropriate person, the templar that cast it.</P>

[Supernova17]

I'm sorry but only a mem wipe or mob's that specifically target healers such as the Tactician and Matron will get a healer in trouble. With a good tank and some self preservation on the part of the healers (ie if you're pre-warding / reactives, put some distance between you and the MT / puller to give the tank an extra second or two to grab the mob should his taunt get resisted).Healers do not generate anywhere near the ammount of aggro that dps classes or tanks do. Even if we're going by 1 point of damage / heal = 1 point of aggro, your healers at best (the MT Templar / Defiler) will be pulling 300-600hps (factoring in the downtime when heals are down or being recasted) while T1 DPS'ers can pull anywhere between 1k and 2k damage on average depending on the fight / setup etc.Any raid force that's doing 55k damage in 90 seconds needs to just save itself the trouble and stop raiding. The trash mobs alone in Freethinkers (using your example) my team pulls 20k damage per second.For the OP, I've always been unclear where the hate goes or how the hate is generated on Reverence, but it doesn't really matter since it works properly. The only crappy part about the spell is that it doesn't record anything in the logfile for ACT to pick up =(Descartin 70 Templar (Retired) T5-T7 EoF Raiding Main <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Bjerde]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wastura wrote:<div></div>Tell you what, go to the shaman forums and tell them heal agro doesn't exsist. Just because you haven't healed to that level yet doesn't mean it doesn't exsist.<hr></blockquote>LOL @ that statement.We aren't shamans. Heal aggro exists, no one is saying it doesn't. If a Templar is getting heal aggro, they are doing something really wrong. A shaman should not get heal aggro either, but pre warding will get you killed pretty quickly.</div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

"Blah blah blah I don't get heal aggro therefore the rest of you are incompetent blah blah blah"That a fair summary of some of the posts?Not everyone has perfectly setup raids with Coercer&Dirge in MT group, Troubs everywhere else, Shamen,MT's who miraculously don't get taunt resists and can stand up to raid mobs for minutes at a time without healing ...For the rest of us heal aggro exists.I'm also a bit curious of Mabes assertion that "<font color="#ffff66">4hp of heals to equal the same aggro level as 1 point of damage</font>".  I've seen other (smaller) claims too, but not from a developer.  Has there been a post?<div></div>

[Tyis]

Back on subject , Ive never seen reverence appear on ACT Grimheart despite playing with settings, not sure thats a ACT thing as looking at the SoE game logs I still cant find reverence heal numbers coming up on logs although I know its there doing its job.  I visably see and feel the difference in raid,group and solo. Might just be my settings in ACT or game but I suspect its not parsable at this time ( if anyone knows otherwise be my guest making us wiser <span>:smileytongue:</span>) I used to worry about my heal parses looking terrible without it showing but after a quiet word with our guildleader it seems its not the only spell that for whatever reason doesnt parse on ACT other classes have spells not showing up too.

[StevusX]

<DIV>Yep, after having a read around on various forums thats my take on it as well.</DIV> <DIV>It seems that soe's data simply doesnt show it so programs like ACT can not pick it up.</DIV> <DIV>Which seems kinda bizzarre to me - strange programming shortcuts by soe ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh well - i know its a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] usefull spell.</DIV> <DIV>Just would have been nice to see how useful.........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps I assume there is a way for soe to actually pull the figures for EVERY spell though - at least i hope so !</DIV> <DIV>otherwise how do they test and "balance" spells :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV>in which case they prob could alter the log data to split these all out.</DIV>

[SG_01]

1) I believe due to Reverence's nature, the devs could not get it to parse.2) Heal aggro definitly does exist. Like when I was in the MT group yesterday, and even though the MT pulled the mob with rescue, it still killed me after my reactives went off (And killed the MT about a second after that, and the OT 10 seconds after that). But then again, the Mistress of the Veil is not an easy mob to mess with.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SG_01 wrote:1) <font color="#ffff33"><b>I believe due to Reverence's nature, the devs could not get it to parse.</b></font>2) Heal aggro definitly does exist. Like when I was in the MT group yesterday, and even though the MT pulled the mob with rescue, it still killed me after my reactives went off (And killed the MT about a second after that, and the OT 10 seconds after that). But then again, the Mistress of the Veil is not an easy mob to mess with.<hr></blockquote>I doubt that very much - If the devs can log something as abtruse as a healing pulse from an earing they could log this.  So its more a case of haven't than can't.Don't confuse the limited client side text logs that our analysis has to use, with what is available to SoE server side (which is anything they want).

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SG_01 wrote:1) <font color="#ffff33"><b>I believe due to Reverence's nature, the devs could not get it to parse.</b></font><hr></blockquote>I doubt that very much - If the devs can log something as abtruse as a healing pulse from an earing they could log this.  So its more a case of haven't than can't.Don't confuse the limited client side text logs that our analysis has to use, with what is available to SoE server side (which is anything they want).<hr></blockquote>It doesn't sound as easy as you would like to beleive, I think.  For one thing, I would not credit SoE too far with that earring proc as it is <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=88756">currently broken</a>.  Aside from that, it is a simple proc that casts a direct heal.  There is nothing special about that.  Reverence has to calculate the amount of power used and redistribute that as health.  Strictly speaking, it is not a heal at all.  It would be like saying Verdict is a nuke that just happens to take a mob to 1hp every time.  Divine Arbitration is even stranger.The point is that the mechanics are abstract compared to already logged things and exposing the resulting data to a log formatter may not be straight forward.  The log formatters in fact could be static automatically used things and "triggering" a heal message from a spell that would not automatically trigger one could either have complications or isn't exposed to the part of code needed.There are several things in ACT that I have delayed doing or have not done at all because getting the needed data from point A to point B was too difficult for little reward.Anyhow, if you would like to quote precedence, I would start with things like Curse of Insanity.  That debuff will hurt you for a small amount every time you use power and the damage does indeed show up in logs.  However we all know that healing and damage follow different mechanics and rules.</div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>EQAditu wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>SG_01 wrote:1) <font color="#ffff33"><b>I believe due to Reverence's nature, the devs could not get it to parse.</b></font><hr></blockquote>I doubt that very much - If the devs can log something as abtruse as a healing pulse from an earing they could log this.  So its more a case of haven't than can't.Don't confuse the limited client side text logs that our analysis has to use, with what is available to SoE server side (which is anything they want).<hr></blockquote>It doesn't sound as easy as you would like to beleive, I think.  For one thing, I would not credit SoE too far with that earring proc as it is <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=88756">currently broken</a>.  Aside from that, it is a simple proc that casts a direct heal.  There is nothing special about that.  Reverence has to calculate the amount of power used and redistribute that as health.  Strictly speaking, it is not a heal at all.  It would be like saying Verdict is a nuke that just happens to take a mob to 1hp every time.  Divine Arbitration is even stranger.<font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">The point is that the mechanics are abstract compared to already logged things</font> and exposing the resulting data to a log formatter may not be straight forward.  The log formatters in fact could be static automatically used things and "triggering" a heal message from a spell that would not automatically trigger one could either have complications or isn't exposed to the part of code needed.There are several things in ACT that I have delayed doing or have not done at all because getting the needed data from point A to point B was too difficult for little reward.Anyhow, if you would like to quote precedence, I would start with things like Curse of Insanity.  That debuff will hurt you for a small amount every time you use power and the damage does indeed show up in logs.  However we all know that healing and damage follow different mechanics and rules.</div><hr></blockquote>Its still the same combat engine, and that is server side, where I doubt it uses abstraction at all.  Keeping one set of numbers in the real engine, and translating them for display in all the various formats in the game would be more effort, not less.My point was that there is an engine making the calculations, or the spells just wouldn't work.  That is server side (design decision - with cheating one of the probable reasons).  SoE can log anything (within reason - given finite diskspace and access times) at that point that they wish.  People looking only at the limited data that gets sent client side, and the (very) limited subset of that, that makes it into the log files, and thinking that is all that SoE have to use internally, are seriously underestimating.The reason I mentioned the healing pulse, is that it is (currently) worn by, and procced from one player, credited to another, and the heal assigned to the group.  Thats a fair few interactions.  Reverence does not look to be  particularly complicated imo, compared to the Curse of Insanity you mention or Reaver (similar SK EoF ability)In the overall game, what gets appended to a text file on the client machine, that has zero impact on the actual game, I would not expect to be a high priority

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:<div></div>ts still the same combat engine, and that is server side, where I doubt it uses abstraction at all.  Keeping one set of numbers in the real engine, and translating them for display in all the various formats in the game would be more effort, not less.My point was that there is an engine making the calculations, or the spells just wouldn't work.  That is server side (design decision - with cheating one of the probable reasons).  SoE can log anything (within reason - given finite diskspace and access times) at that point that they wish.  People looking only at the limited data that gets sent client side, and the (very) limited subset of that, that makes it into the log files, and thinking that is all that SoE have to use internally, are seriously underestimating.The reason I mentioned the healing pulse, is that it is (currently) worn by, and procced from one player, credited to another, and the heal assigned to the group.  Thats a fair few interactions.  Reverence does not look to be  particularly complicated imo, compared to the Curse of Insanity you mention or Reaver (similar SK EoF ability)In the overall game, what gets appended to a text file on the client machine, that has zero impact on the actual game, I would not expect to be a high priority<hr></blockquote>Just because they can pipe what Reverence does to a static method that writes to a server side debugging log doesn't mean that it's that easy to send that data to the EQ2 client.  I explained before that I can sympathize that getting data from one private module to another can be a pain.  I doubt they program the entire EQ2 server statically and they need to keep the number of objects accessed globally to a limited number.Healing Pulse is a bad example because it is a direct heal... it doesn't matter if it passes between the caster and recipient/group members.  It's a direct heal that has always been logable.  Getting a spell to affect a target's group members is nothing special either.  Curse of Insanity is a more perfect example because like Reverence, the amount of power spent directly changes the amount of health adjusted.  Though the two spells don't read the same when examined.But yes, this is exceptionally low on the list of things they will "fix".  I'd much rather they fix my heal proc earring and helmet, but I fear that is low on their list as well even though it *does* affect gameplay.</div>

[Kendricke]

<P>Whereas 1 point of damage equates to 1 point of hate, 1 point of healing does not equate to 1 point of hate.  Lockeye confirmed this some time ago, but healing actually produces less hate than damage.  Arguments which seek to compare total healing vs. total damage fail to adjust for that.</P> <P>As far as healers grabbing hate, it can and does happen, but typically only in pull situations where preheals are used (and the tank is either too slow to taunt or resisted) or where memwipes or other special circumstances occur.  If the tank isn't in a set hate group (dirge, coercer, rogue, etc.), then healers could grab more hate (but then again, so would everyone else).</P> <P>In groups, the only time I find myself grabbing hate is when I perform more burst damage than the tank can keep up with.  I rarely, if ever, find myself grabbing hate purely from heals unless the tank was simply underequipped in the first place (thus, causing a need for far more burst healing than should be necessary, or because the quality of the tank's taunts is below standard).</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:10 AM</span>

[da5idblacksun]

How do you configure ACT to parse healing?<div></div>

[SG_01]

You don't have to configure it to parse healing, it already does. All you probably want to do is configure it so that it shows the healing numbers instead of the damage numbers.easiest way to do this is go into the options, under text output, change all the {damage} to {healed}, all the {dps} to {hps}, all the {extdps} to {exthps}, and all the {maxhit} to {maxheal}. Then make sure the sorting is set for hps or exthps instead of dps or extdps.

[Iluvataris]

<P>This is what I use to show everyones healing output</P> <P>{n}{name} healed: {healed} / {exthps} hps ({heals} heals) - {healed%}</P>