Templar Grouping Primer

[Valnast]

So I'm embarrassed to say it, but I don't think I can figure out the 'best' way to operate in a group.  I never played a healer before and my old guildies are getting back into EoF so i decided to make a templar.  Right now we're all pretty busy and at low levels oyu pretty much do the local quests and such to level up.  I'm 26 now and I haven't had to group yet until i went out tonight.  Nothing bad really happened.  But i felt confused, scared, and worried the entire time that i wasn't doing very much.  If we ever were in trouble, i didn't know the most efficient way to chain my heals, what stacks, how to use my pacify/mez spells, and my group heals.  I did all the holy smiting tree AA's in hopes to get the smite wrath early since I solo so much, and respec later on. I have Yaulp, Stamina(1), Wisdom(1), Smite(5), Strike(5), Combative Faith (5), Beam(1).I checked the stickies and did a few search's without finding what I'm looking for specifically, if there is something out there I would appreciate a link.  What I want to know is what buffs people carry (symbol, hp/mit buff, melee/hp buff) and who to cast them on, when you start a group what you do pre hunting/intermittently (revive thingies, recast timers, pre pull spells).  When a mob is pulled, what do you cast early/late, if someone is going down fast how do i heal them fastest, when are cures used ?  I know its sort of a lot, but I just want to start doing things right now so that I'm ready when it matters.  I can handle the ui elements (target switching, casting, monitoring health etc), i just wanna know what heals when.Thanks in advance all.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<P>Nothing to be embarassed about.  This is what these forums are for, and there are a number of veteran Templars who can give you advice.</P> <P>Your primary goal is healing in a group.  Don't get distracted by nukes, debuffs, etc... unless you are positive the tank isn't getting hit to much.  You should have 3 basic buffs at that level if I remember right.  Your Symbol, Daring, and Redoubt.   Symbol and Daring are group so no worries on those.  Redoubt I usually cast on myself, the other healer if there is one, and/or whoever seems to be getting hit the most. </P> <P>When you join a group and are about to pull make sure you hand out rez items.  Even after 2+ years of being a Templar I am horrible about this.   It's not usually good idea to cast your reactive heal right before a pull.  Typically what a tank will do is use some miniscule ability to get the creatures attention, he'll get hit, your reactive will generate hate and it'll run straight for you.  I typically give a few seconds of combat before casting it (especially on SK/Pally's whose taunts work over time).  </P> <P>In a fight, like I said the tank is THE most important person.  If he dies, usually you all do.  Single target reactive him, and at that point I usually toss out Rebuke (which would be Disgrace to you) to increase damage being done.  If the tank is taking more damage than your reactive can hold follow up with your small or great heal.  I typically start with small since its a fast cast/recast.  If you see a group member getting pounded on a group heal might save the day.  Make sure you are using your F1-F6 keys to switch targets.  Fast target switching is key to a tough fight.  Group reactives are good thing if there are multiple group members getting pounded on but its slow and really inefficent and does more harm than good many times.  </P> <P>Cures in the low levels aren't such a big deal as they are at the high levels.  I would cure the tank if he takes anything though as it'll eat up your reactives.  </P> <P>There are lots of helpful people around here so feel free to ask anything you like.</P><p>Message Edited by Radar-X on <span class=date_text>12-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[da5idblacksun]

The above advice on not casting your reactive until a few seconds after the tank pulls if a good one. In a group keeping the tank alive is your key objective.  I try to always keep my single target reactive up and have this spell at master level.  I also use the atonement line a lot in fights where there are lots of MOBs getting killed fast.  The atonement spell triggers upon death and does a group heal.  It's the most cost effective group heal you have but it does require a MOB to die.  I use this even if just the tank is taking damage just because it provides a lot of healing for a little bit of mana.  Once I have the healing under control, I'll throw in some debuffs if I can. <div></div>

[Agrik]

<DIV>Unlike radar I love group reactive, use it more then single target in fact.  Its only a little less mana efficient (which for a high end templar doesn’t mean a lot) there are more heal ‘procs’ and its group wide for safety.  Once you’ve been in a group for a few pulls youll get the feeling for how much ‘early’ taunting the tank is doing and how long you have to wait before casting a reactive; at high lvls I ALWAYS pre reactive the tank before pull unless it’s a complete waste mob that wont even hit him then you can nuke all you want.  If it’s a really hard mob you have to pre cast the heals to make sure the tank lives and you might get agro as radar suggests, all the more reason for that first heal to be group not single so its on you as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don’t worry about feeling like your not doing much.  Your there to keep the group topped off in health and running smoothly, if your getting bored then that just means you have too many healers or your not fighting something hard enough.  /wink<BR>You are also there for if the shet hits the fan and they’ll need you when it does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>‘when your in trouble’ I usually go fast heal, big heal, single reactive, fast heal, stun, group reactive or group heal, fast heal, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But its better if you know a big pull or named is inc then you can precast reactives and lead with the daze, which will drastically lower most mobs dps, then you can debuff or heal as needed.  I like to save the stun for when I need to recast group reactive.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>Theres just so much more to tell, but youll have to learn most of it in your own time, its just better that way.  Goo’luk</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[RingleToo]

<P>This has been an interesting thread for me so far, and I've been a templar for quite awhile (though it's not my main). Interesting to see the slightly different tactics that others use. Seems we all agree - keep the tank alive then keep the rest of the group alive. (My favorite thing about being a templar is getting through a tuff multi-encounter fight without anyone dying). But we've all developed slightly different preferances for how we keep folks alive. </P> <P>For me it depends on the situation - is it a single mob, heroic or epic, mulit-mob, do we get adds, are there other healers in the group, is the tank a monk, and other considerations I'm no doubt not thinking of at the moment. </P> <P>In general, though, I do pretty much what everyone else here is posting, though maybe not in the order others do it and not every time. These are good basic tactics, but like Agrik said, it's do and learn what works when and when not.  </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RingleToo wrote:<BR> <P> For me it depends on the situation - is it a single mob, heroic or epic, mulit-mob, do we get adds, are there other healers in the group, is the tank a monk, and other considerations I'm no doubt not thinking of at the moment.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I was trying to stay as general as possible.  Obviously different situations may warrant different strats.  I can't heal a group with a Bruiser tanking like I can one with a Guardian.  Is there an AE, knockback, or stun I need worry about? </P> <P>Raiding is a whole different can of worms and there are a dozen variables depending on where you are in the raid.  What I do in the MT group is night and day different than in the G2 or G3 DPS groups.</P>

[Maryk]

I know I'm being redundant but I think its good to hear repeated from a couple of sources.  When grouping I focus 99.9% on the tank.  He's my big buddy.  If he dies the group goes belly up.  I may glance every now and then at the other members...and if the tank is holding his own I may sneak in a heal to one of the other group members...but its rare.  I can afford to lose them (generally) but not the tank.  Never cast just prior to a fight...trust me...I learned that the hard way.  The mobs do like to eat healers first.  Once the tank has agro...debuffs and heals...that all I do.

[Spudsin]

<div></div>Sometimes you have to let people die.  99.9% of the time you must keep the tank up. Even if you have the power and time to spam heals on a caster that got agro, you'll end up pulling agro off the caster and onto yourself. Usually the group can lose the caster, invarably loosing the healer is catastrophic.You always need to look at whats best for the group (gee, I'm sounding socalist here). There's been maybe 3 times in playing that letting the tank die was 'right' (healing self instead, and keeping buffs on group so scout can take last few swings/tank mob to kill it). So everything's situational.You're goals: 1. keep group (ie tank) up/functioning 2. debuff mobs [ask sombody to run a parse w/ and w/o debuffs, you'll see a MAJOR dps increase when you debuff]3. This field intentually left blank4. Damage (wether melee or spells)*Typically the damage we do is so small that it's effectivly a rounding error in the other people's parses :/ Though it can be very fun to get the kill shot in <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm a raid/grouping templar so your milage will vary <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Spudsin on <span class=date_text>12-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 PM</span>

[Whitemane]

<DIV>Everything here is good. One cavaet about the group reactive though in support of RadarX is that it is very slow to cast and power hungry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying dont use it but you have to be careful when you do as it is definately not an "oh poop we're all gonnna diiiiie" heal ( until you get DR anyways). You can and probably will loose your tank trying to use it as a preference I actually rarely use it in groups. 5 seconds is a long time sometimes ;p.  Healing as a templar is a lot about being preactive with your reactives if you want to be any good ;p</DIV>

[labrat]

<div></div>I would have to disagree about the not precasting reactives.  The abbility to precast the reactives is part of what makes the templar better than the other healer types.   If your tank cannot hold agro when you precast your reactives, then that tank sucks.  Its ok if you get hit a couple times on the pull and your tank gets it right back.   That happens all the time.  Thats what the group reactive is for. If you are killing easy stuff then sure, cast after the fight starts.   But if you want to fight something really tough, have both of your reactives up about 5 seconds before the tank pulls.  Then when the tank does pull, you can cast one or both of your direct heals as needed to keep him green then cast your single reactive since it should be up again by now, then as soon as the single reactive is up cast your group reactive which should be up by now.  By the time you get the group reactive up, your single reactive might be used up.  Either way, cast it again just because you can and because its going to be used up very soon anyway. The key to the chain casting is to keep the group reactive up continuously, but because of the long cast time you cant just do it any time you want because the tank might be dead before it goes off.  Always cast your single reactive right before and after the group reactive then a few direct heals or debuffs in between.   But always single reactive -> group reactive -> then single reactive. My tried and true chain cast is: Group reactive > single reactive > sort pause  >  then the tank pulls > couple of direct heals as needed > single reactive > group reactive > single reactive > small heal > big heal > single reactive > small heal > group heal > single reactive > group reactive > single reactive.  If you do it this way, and if your tank can hold agro, your tank should be able to pull whole rooms of stuff that you would usually pull one at a time. <div></div><p>Message Edited by labrat23 on <span class=date_text>12-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 PM</span>

[Whitemane]

<P><FONT color=#ff3300>Well gonna disagree with your Disagreement =D. I think is a really bad habit to get into with new templars especailly since they are probably also grouping with new tanks who are not going to either have the gear or the spells levels to recover from it.  Sure most can get it back quickly enough but why </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Also what are you fighting that requires this? What hard content? I dont precast anywhere ( except maybe sanctuary or reverance on a mob that stuns or if I want a second or two to cast a stun or something&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Not in Nizara or MMC. Its simply not required & I dont have issues keeping my tank standing and those are the only two non raid zones that are remotely hard solo healing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I think especailly since the mit changes this strategy on equivalent level mobs ( meaning yellow or white ^^^ encounters ) this is gonna get you dead,  if you are sweeping rooms of blues like say in the catacombs sure go for it but again not a good habit. In a raid its pretty much a garunteed death or kick from raid as you cause the tank to get socail agro from the heal on mobs that were not intended to be pulled.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>For clearing rooms of blues ( stuff you could sleep though anyways ) go for it. Otherwise I wouldnt do this.  /shrug</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> labrat23 wrote:<BR> I would have to disagree about the not precasting reactives.  The abbility to precast the reactives is part of what makes the templar better than the other healer types.   If your tank cannot hold agro when you precast your reactives, then that tank sucks.  Its ok if you get hit a couple times on the pull and your tank gets it right back.   That happens all the time.  Thats what the group reactive is for.<BR><BR>If you are killing easy stuff then sure, cast after the fight starts.   But if you want to fight something really tough, have both of your reactives up about 5 seconds before the tank pulls.  Then when the tank does pull, you can cast one or both of your direct heals as needed to keep him green then cast your single reactive since it should be up again by now, then as soon as the single reactive is up cast your group reactive which should be up by now.  By the time you get the group reactive up, your single reactive might be used up.  Either way, cast it again just because you can and because its going to be used up very soon anyway.<BR><BR>The key to the chain casting is to keep the group reactive up continuously, but because of the long cast time you cant just do it any time you want because the tank might be dead before it goes off.  Always cast your single reactive right before and after the group reactive then a few direct heals or debuffs in between.   But always single reactive -> group reactive -> then single reactive.<BR><BR>My tried and true chain cast is:<BR>Group reactive > single reactive > sort pause  >  then the tank pulls > couple of direct heals as needed > single reactive > group reactive > single reactive > small heal > big heal > single reactive > small heal > group heal > single reactive > group reactive > single reactive.  If you do it this way, and if your tank can hold agro, your tank should be able to pull whole rooms of stuff that you would usually pull one at a time.<BR> <P>Message Edited by labrat23 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Darth Hoob]

<DIV>Hmm a lot of opinions here. Most of them completely different lol. I guess that's what makes Templar's such a notoriously confusing class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still learning myself, even after almost 6 months at level 70 I'm still discovering new tactics, and will openly admit that I too was a little unsure just how to go about being the best Templar I can be at all times.</DIV> <DIV>Primarily, to be a good Templar, I think you need to admit that your never gonna get a great dps score on the parser. Not unless you completely respec your AA Cleric lines towards STA AGI and INT (Doing this will make solo'ing easier, but will decrease your healing effectiveness. This has been discussed at length on a variety of threads here. Have a dig around!). But that's not to say that experimenting with these AAs is not a good idea. The whole point of the AA systems is to create a variety of classes within each class. A Templar with maxed out INT & STA lines is very different from one who chose AGI & WIS, and so on.</DIV> <DIV>Plus respec'ing your AA lines (at the mage tower within your home city) is reasonably cheap for the first few attempts, to allow you to see whats what.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway back to your original questions; <EM>what do we cast? and what do we carry?</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the tank pulls, I usually get a single reactive off. If it's multiple mobs I sometimes follow up with the group reactive, but as said before, at low levels this costs lots of mana, so try not to go overboard with it. There is a spell called <EM>Amending fate</EM> (@ lvl 20) which I find a big help when taking on large groups. When a mob dies it heals your group. This can be a lifesaver sometimes. Other than that, I keep an eye out for any cures needed (using the F keys to switch quickly), but mainly targeting thru your tank and maybe even the odd attack if all is going well. The thing to remember is your role. If your not happy casting heals over attacks, then perhaps another class would suit you better. Your priority should be 1) the tank, 2) the group, then 3) the mob. Let the tank worry about the mob. Let the group worry about the dps. Your there to keep them alive. (a fellow Templar has this written in there biography "I decide who lives and dies. I decide who lives and dies. I decide who lives and dies!" I think it put's a nice perspective on it for us) :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Armor wise, try and get a friendly armorer to make you a new set at each tier. You get basic armor upgrades at 20, 30, etc. But if you have the time to harvest (or the gold to hit the brokers) you can get them to make some out of rare metals which is given at level 22, 32, etc. Even just getting your chest piece made from these rares can help you out.</DIV> <DIV>Your weapon will by default be some sort of mace or hammer. Most Templar's prefer Hammers, as at tier 7 there are plenty of looted ones to choose from, in a variety of zones. I personally go for a big hefty 2 hander. But 1 handers are available if you find a useful symbol for your second hand.</DIV> <DIV>Try to get hold of jewellery too, for every slot you have (not forgetting your charm slots either). WIS is your main priority here. But don't get to involved in spending heaps of money on items at these low levels. Things get expensive very fast, and your final setup won't be clear to you until you hit your 50s. If you've wasted loads of gold buying Masters and items before this, you could find yourself struggling to pay your way. (A good tradeskill helps funding).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are just so many other facets to this game that can make a small difference to your characters setup. Transmuted adornments, deity skills, tradeskills, AAs... It can be hard to know where to start I know. Just don't be in a hurry to reach level 70. Enjoy, explore, experiment. Then hopefully, by the time your hitting the big zones it may all become a little clearer. I love my Templar now (I didn't at first). He's never gonna beat a Fury on the parsers. But he'll always be wanted in groups and raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope my rambling helps. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[labrat]

<blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div> <p><font color="#ff3300">Well gonna disagree with your Disagreement =D. I think is a really bad habit to get into with new templars especailly since they are probably also grouping with new tanks who are not going to either have the gear or the spells levels to recover from it.  Sure most can get it back quickly enough but why </font></p> <p><font color="#ff3300">Also what are you fighting that requires this? What hard content? I dont precast anywhere ( except maybe sanctuary or reverance on a mob that stuns or if I want a second or two to cast a stun or something&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Not in Nizara or MMC. Its simply not required & I dont have issues keeping my tank standing and those are the only two non raid zones that are remotely hard solo healing.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff3300">I think especailly since the mit changes this strategy on equivalent level mobs ( meaning yellow or white ^^^ encounters ) this is gonna get you dead,  if you are sweeping rooms of blues like say in the catacombs sure go for it but again not a good habit. In a raid its pretty much a garunteed death or kick from raid as you cause the tank to get socail agro from the heal on mobs that were not intended to be pulled.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff3300">For clearing rooms of blues ( stuff you could sleep though anyways ) go for it. Otherwise I wouldnt do this.  /shrug</font></p> <hr></blockquote>There are two very distinct sets of people in this game.  Templars that precast along with the people who group with such templars, and those that don't.  There is no grey area and these two groups do not mix.  Those that don't will always tell you not to, because in their experience they are right.  Those that tell you to precast, are those who do and know you can.  I am one of those precasters of course, and I can tell you that, with my personal playstyle, it is by far a much more fun road to take.  When I see a templar saying he feels like he isnt doing anything, I see a templar in a group that is not tackling anything hard.  I also see a templar that would be having more fun if that group was talking something hard.  While this may not be everyone's play style, my idea of a fun time is a group that keep pushing closer to the limits of what you can do.  This is mainly up to the tank to do because he controlls what kind of load he puts on the healer.  My best friends in the game are tanks that know how to push the limit and do so.  Sure there is no zone that is hard enough in and of itself, but you can pull more mobs at once just to keep it fun.  As you push the limit, you get better and your limit moves a little farther away.  If you do this every day, you will eventually find that you are many times better than you were before. If this does not sound like your playstyle, keep grouping with those who do not expect you to precast and don't precast.  Its all about your personal choise and your playstyle.  If you know your group members, and you group with them regularly, try precasting your reactives.  He should be able to learn quick enough how to deal with it.  IMHO, that is the fun road to take.  <blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div> <p><font color="#ff3300">Well gonna disagree with your Disagreement =D... </font></p> <p><font color="#ff3300">....</font><font color="#ff3300"> In a raid its pretty much a garunteed death or kick from raid as you cause the tank to get socail agro from the heal on mobs that were not intended to be pulled....</font> </p> <hr></blockquote>With raid advice like that, I would stop giving it.<div></div>

[Espyderman]

<DIV>I got two ways of healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Preheals</DIV> <DIV>Preheal set, i would:</DIV> <DIV>Cast Vitae on Tank, group Vitae, and any other ward buffs or HoH buff. (Heal on Hit)</DIV> <DIV>Tank pulls</DIV> <DIV>Stun Target</DIV> <DIV>Debuff using involuntary cures, and mark of kings (or its variation) and recast HoH</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep doing this until totally debuffed then Nuke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If tank goes down hard and fast, spam your small heal, then big heal, then group heal, then vitae the tank and repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No Preheals</DIV> <DIV>No Preheals you would:</DIV> <DIV>Let tank pull, then cast grande restoration. Tank will take some damage but your heal will counter it, then you can cast a vitae and group vitae and the ward a templar gets (arcane ward).</DIV> <DIV>This way is good when you dont want aggro from the tank and the tank does body pulling and does not taunt quick enough for the mob to not hit you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spam healing is easy, small heal, big heal, group heal, vitae</DIV> <DIV>or</DIV> <DIV>big heal, vitae, small heal, group heal, group vitae</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All depends on situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i find my friends getting stunned a ton with ads comin in ill use Divine recovery for quicker casting times, and sometimes sanctuary to avoid stuns, fears etc....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are other ways but thats about all im willing to write atm. Im sure others have other ways, but this works for me in raids and in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Spudsin]

I don't think it's as completly cut and dried on pre-reactive or not.  It depends on the situation, who/whats pulling, who/what's tanking, and whats being pulled.In Labs raids, I can go the first half of the raid pre-reactiv-ing the MT, but after a certain point, the types of mobs being pulled changes, and they'll always kill me straight off, THEN go back to the tank. I didn't change, tank pulling didn't change, but the situation did.<div></div>

[Darth Hoob]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spudsin wrote:<BR>I don't think it's as completly cut and dried on pre-reactive or not.  It depends on the situation, who/whats pulling, who/what's tanking, and whats being pulled.<BR><BR>In Labs raids, I can go the first half of the raid pre-reactiv-ing the MT, but after a certain point, the types of mobs being pulled changes, and they'll always kill me straight off, THEN go back to the tank. I didn't change, tank pulling didn't change, but the situation did.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Aye this is very true, and the raid zone <EM>Labs of Vyemm</EM> is the perfect example of this, as you said. I myself got into the situation of causing a wipe because of me precasting.</P> <P>"But I've been doing it all zone" I protested. "That's the first mob to respond like that!"</P> <P>Different mobs, different approach required. That's basically the answer needed here. And if your the sort of player that prefers to play by the numbers, there are plenty of sources out there that will tell how to pull virtually every mob in the game, and possibly live!</P> <P>But I don't play like that. Not first off at least. Sure who hasn't looked at raid tactics for <STRONG>Vyemm</STRONG> or <STRONG>Harla Dar. </STRONG>But day to day playing of the game for me is all about exploring, and living the life of your character. Some of my most enjoyable moments ingame have been taking on something without knowing a thing about it till I got there. Much like real life you could say. :smileywink:</P>

[Whitemane]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><snip> <hack></P> <P>Sure it is fun =D And well hey thats what the game is all about. Do what you enjoy. As long as everyone lives ( and sometimes when they dont ;p )</P> <P> I just never find a reason to precast I just dont find it nescessary in normal grouping. I have done it if we are doing HoS or DT with only 5 healers and I do warn the MT, as people above that say it varies according to situation are correct and part of being a good healer is know what and when you can get away with things. As a rule though I wouldnt do it in p.u.g etc.</P> <P>Pre-Lu13 I used to precast alot more especailly in the t5 raid days as the reactive hate went to the healee not the healed so there were good reasons to do so. ( Hehe made healing mages fun as if you had to reactive them they were never gonna get rid of the agro ) but after LU13 I never bothered. I just dont find need to do so. But if you're having fun then knock yourself out.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>If this does not sound like your playstyle, keep grouping with those who do not expect you to precast and don't precast.  Its all about your personal choise and your playstyle.  If you know your group members, and you group with them regularly, try precasting your reactives.  He should be able to learn quick enough how to deal with it.  IMHO, that is the fun road to take. <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whitemane wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Well gonna disagree with your Disagreement =D...<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>....</FONT><FONT color=#ff3300> In a raid its pretty much a garunteed death or kick from raid as you cause the tank to get socail agro from the heal on mobs that were not intended to be pulled....</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>With raid advice like that, I would stop giving it.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Really? I urge to try precasting while pulling an encounter like the reavers in FTH. ( 1/2 of the encounter is very far out of taunt range ). After you scrape yourself off the walls let me know how it went. Your Milage may very I suppose.<BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[labrat]

<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> <hr> Whitemane wrote: <div></div> <p><font color="#ff3300">Well gonna disagree with your Disagreement =D...</font></p> <p><font color="#ff3300">....</font><font color="#ff3300"> In a raid its pretty much a garunteed death or kick from raid as you cause the tank to get socail agro from the heal on mobs that were not intended to be pulled....</font></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>With raid advice like that, I would stop giving it.</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>Really? I urge to try precasting while pulling an encounter like the reavers in FTH. ( 1/2 of the encounter is very far out of taunt range ). After you scrape yourself off the walls let me know how it went. Your Milage may very I suppose.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> [Removed for Content],    Really,  I'm laughing my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off at you.  We have cleared FTH.  The trash in there is a joke.  We precast on every pull.  I havent died on a pull yet. Our defiler hasn't died on a pull yet.   If your tank can't hold agro on a reaver pull then your tank is a piece of crap.  Why don't you try getting some raid experience before you start giving raid advice. </blockquote><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>Not a Templar, but just some general advice:<ul><li>your job is not keep everyone at full health, your job is to keep the group alive long enough to kill the mobs - what this means is that you do not necessarily have to top everyone off</li><li>debuff, debuff, debuff - healing for less is a good thing!</li><li>get your group to help you, EVERY class has some ability to help with incoming damage, if they are good players they will do this</li></ul><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 PM</span>

[Whitemane]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How nice for you. You must be very proud. I'm sure you're defiler is happy too. </P> <P>To point to this thread was not whose [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is bigger or whose done what. It was about giving advice to new templars.  If you want to derail and go off then have at it.</P> <P>Simple truth is that you will get agro if you percast reactives / wards /spores / whatever on the tank before a pull either in raiding or in normal grouping. Joe_templar grouping in Black Burrow should know this if they are going to try it, or they are going to be in for a surprise. I dont care if you're tank is the freaking hulk resists happen your uber_pants_of_we_slew-cheldrak wont proc, the fates will not be aligned in your favour whatever. When it happens ( and it happens alot sometimes ) you will probably die depending on what you are fighting. It has nothing to do with you're tank sucking or whatever, it is simple game mechanics. it will happen & Like you said above, you know what youre doing not a big deal just be prepared for the nice orange resisted above the mobs head ;p. And in my experience the gain from precasting doesnt outwiegh the risk. </P> <P>your milage may very.  Whatever keeps your group standing is a success. It doesn't have to look pretty</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>[Removed for Content],    Really,  I'm laughing my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off at you.  We have cleared FTH.  The trash in there is a joke.  We precast on every pull.  I havent died on a pull yet. Our defiler hasn't died on a pull yet.   If your tank can't hold agro on a reaver pull then your tank is a piece of crap.  Why don't you try getting some raid experience before you start giving raid advice.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[StevusX]

<P>Some general advice to new templars...</P> <P>Dont precast reactives - unless you know the zone, the mobs, and that the tank is going to Taunt pull, not Body pull....</P> <P>You can precast reactives in some situations, and with some heavy duty Nameds its pretty essential.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you do precast, warn the tank because you WILL get aggro............</P> <P>In my experience most tanks do not want you to precast unless its against a mob where it really really really is necessary.</P> <P> </P> <P>and dont forget your Mitigation debuff line - tanks love this as increases their melee damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>As mentioned above though there are many different ways of playing, many of which are successful so experiment to find whats works best for YOU.</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> labrat23 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whitemane wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Well gonna disagree with your Disagreement =D...<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>....</FONT><FONT color=#ff3300> In a raid its pretty much a garunteed death or kick from raid as you cause the tank to get socail agro from the heal on mobs that were not intended to be pulled....</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>With raid advice like that, I would stop giving it.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Really? I urge to try precasting while pulling an encounter like the reavers in FTH. ( 1/2 of the encounter is very far out of taunt range ). After you scrape yourself off the walls let me know how it went. Your Milage may very I suppose.<BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>[Removed for Content],    Really,  I'm laughing my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off at you.  We have cleared FTH.  The trash in there is a joke.  We precast on every pull.  I havent died on a pull yet. Our defiler hasn't died on a pull yet.   If your tank can't hold agro on a reaver pull then your tank is a piece of crap.  Why don't you try getting some raid experience before you start giving raid advice.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's part of the problem you are kinda missing...</P> <P>The OP didn't ASK for raid advice.  If you really believe precasting will keep you alive outside of a disciplined raid situation, you've been in the hardcore raider ivory tower way too long my friend.  From a raid perspective, IF you have a disciplined tank, precasting is ok but in the day to day stuff? It's far from the norm.  </P> <P>I'd say if your tank can't stay alive more than the cast time of a reactive, they are a pretty worthless raid tank.</P> <P>The rest of your advice was good though, but I think it's important to keep in mind while we might not completely agree on when you should and shouldn't precast, always and never are two very definitive words.  A good Templar feels out their situation and reacts appropriately.</P><p>Message Edited by Radar-X on <span class=date_text>01-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Eriol]

First of all, take the raiding discussion out of here. This guy was asking about lowbie starter healing advice, and so take the debate on the ultra-high-end elsewhere please.Having said that, there's a lot of good advice here. On the precasting... see what works for you. Obviously there's strong opinions here on it. My policy is to not do it unless I know the encounter is going to be hard, or if I know the tank is solid in getting snap-agro. It's really a "feel" thing.Something that also seems to be a playstyle difference around here is the usage of the small and big heals. Personally, I don't use the small heal very much at all outside of topping people up after an encounter is done. In most situations, if a direct heal is needed (not a reactive), then the player's health is dropping fast enough that the small heal wouldn't do much anyways (you'd heal as much damage as was taken in the time to cast it), thus the large heal is the one to use to actually get ahead. Then place your single-target reactive on directly after the large heal is cast. Now obviously others have their own ways of doing it, and are being successful, but for my own sake, the larger heal is ALWAYS more important than the smaller one. As others have said though, "sequence of casting" is something that really can't be taught, but must be "felt" through from experience.Also as has been mentioned above, I'm a BIG fan of using the "group heal on mob death" line of spells. I almost always cast it on every mob in an encounter that I possibly can, since as was mentioned, it is one of the most efficient heals that we have. Obviously on big named fights where there's a single mob it isn't useful, but even going through a dungeon of straight triple-up mobs, the extra post-fight healing keeps the whole group going faster since it usually takes care of the little stuff easily. And on multi-mob encounters where it triggers 3-4 times throughout the fight it's definitely a huge help.The last topic that's probably forgotten to most top-level templars is adept3 upgrade sequence. My templar is my alt character, so I have the money to upgrade everything that I care to, but if you don't have a healthy supply of platinum, I'd say adept1 MINIMUM on all of your heals even if you are primarily soloing, and ad3 the nukes, because you really do need all the punch you can possibly get, because they're not all that hot, and at the low levels nukes are definitely your primary DPS source. Grouping is just the opposite, to the point where your nukes don't need to be adept even, but adept3 your single target reactive first, then your big heal (see my section above on why big heal first), then it's a toss-up between group reactive and small heal as for which to ad3. For the great majority of your leveling, ad3 of the other "lotto heals" is completely unnecessary, and is only a money sink. But having said that, even if primarily soloing, if you group even a little bit (which I'm sure every templar does), ad3 your single-target reactive as soon as possible EVERY time. It is THAT important. IMO it's like a conjuror or necromancer pet: EVERY person must have ad3 of that.As for AAs... that's a whole other discussion, but I hope I've contributed something at least moderately helpful.

[Nari]

I am probably spoiled.  I usually play with a pally who has master taunts.  I've learned some bad bad habits, but I can precast anytime I want, well except for that one time...When you are just starting out, most of the tanks you will group with in pick up groups will be near naked.  I can see why you would be tempted to precast, but just make sure YOU have good armor on in case the tank can't get it off of you.  If you have the mitigation and the hitpoints to take some hits from  whatever you're fighting, do whatever you want.  It will be dead or taunted before it becomes a problem.<div></div>

[Fenrock]

<P>I know some people said this but I just wanted to restate.  Make sure you use your Debuffs.  They don't cost much mana and help you kill the mobs much faster.  And mob death is like a super cost effective heal spell.  Also the spell that heals everyone upon mob death is like the most effective spell ever for when your just fighting weak stuff, against tough stuff it still helps just not to the same extent.  Against easy targets I normally don't cast anything except that spell and the melee debuff spell, sence the little amount of damage anyone might take will be healed and if it doesn't quite fill them up I can cast a small heal or leave it up to the players out of combat healing rate.</P>

[ParlMoebius]

<DIV>It is interesting to see the various approaches, and makes me understand even clearer why there are so many varied opinions on Templars, both in the community and outside.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leaving aside all raid advice, which will generally focus on chain healing, curing and such, I've got a series of casts that I try to make that I dont think has been laid out quite the same as yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind that this isnt going to cover all scenarios by any means.  If you are going to be truly good at this class, (and a number of others as well of course), its going to be more about your ability to react quickly and adapt to changing conditions than the memorization of a set pattern.  That being said - I'll lay out a few of my own personal approaches and discoveries.  </DIV> <DIV>Not all of these spells may be available to you yet, but thats not to say you cant think about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont generally precast.  <BR></DIV> <DIV>As an alternative to that, when the tank pulls a mob, I start with my stun.  I think you get the first at around 40, at around a 7s stun, that gives not only time to cast debuff, and the Mark of line on the mob, but is also preventing damage to the tank. </DIV> <DIV>I'll follow those up with Vitae on the tank, then the Sign of line, which prevents the autoattack but not CA's (or was it the other way around?) to further reduce damage incoming as the stuns worn off... then an Involuntary line spell from there.  Then just get ready to cast reactive and direct heals as needed, and maintain the current spells on the mob.  Swing that hammer and smite as allowed or desired <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dynamics are right, you'll find that a ton of your healing is coming off the procs from the Mark of and Involuntary lines, and by casting your Forced (stun) and Sign of line as they come up, the damage being taken is drastically reduced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, alot of this is contigent on a few things.  If your group is blowing through mobs fast, it may not be worth casting Involuntary or Mark of, though the stun line is still very useful, as is the Amending line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going up against groups, make sure your casting the Amending Fate line so when one critter goes down, youve got a group heal coming at you.  The reactives are of course great here, and you may actually find this is the best scenario for the group reactives.  Its more likely to have aggro peel off the tank and start hitting other group members if there are a ton of mobs or multiple groups swarming him, and you have group members poppin off aoe's.  The group reactive is nice to cover your own [Removed for Content] if they come after you too.  Problem with this is, it almost has to be cast pre-emptively as the casting time is prohibitively slow (it also costs a lot of juice).  Theres a good chance a cloth wearing groupmate who pulled a nasty one off the tank wont last the time it takes to get that group reactive off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Small heal vs big heal?  Depends on how fast the tanks taking damage and whether youre the only healer or not.  If we've got two healers, I'll usually go for the small heal, as I dont want to waste mana with over-healing the tank.  Otherwise, if time allows, I'll cast the big one, followed by Vitae, then the small, big, vitae, wash repeat, with a liberal sprinkling of cures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll say it again, I love the stun!!  7s is enough time to get 1-2 spells off, great for slowing down the damage long enough to get your debuff, proc spells, Aegis or Sanctuary off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theres a reason we've got all those other spells besides the direct and reactive heals.  They can be and are useful in the right scenarios, I use pretty much all of them regularly, from soothe to Unswerving Hammer to Uyielding Benefaction to Yaulp.  It's why I have fun playing my class, and you wont ever find me doing nothing (unless I'm busy eating a sammich <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).</DIV><p>Message Edited by ParlMoebius on <span class=date_text>01-12-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 PM</span>

[RipFlex]

<DIV>I never precast reactives, and I always cancel left over reactives after each fight because I like my Templar to stay in one piece.  The fact the MT can be stifled or have his taunt outright resisted makes me nervous.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only time I precast Reactive and [Removed for Content] saving buffs on the tank is when we pull something really hard or just hits hard initially; and when I do I tell the Tank I will do so and tell him Go once he's all buffed up so he knows when the taunt doesn't work or get stifled, everyone and him know I'm the Monster's NEW BEST FRIEND and are ready to handle it.  Why I do this is because after much reluntancy I'm forced as a 1 Healer in a Group, even when 2 healers be nice... I drop everyone dies for sure.  So caution I have learned.   If there's 2 healers sure, I will cast away... no worries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SG_01]

For monk and bruiser tanks, my <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=24470&query.id=0#M24470" target=_blank>Guide to healing them</a> still stands <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The only real difference is that the sign line no longer functions as a mez, and cannot be broken. Though if you have went the AGI line, you do have a mez <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by SG_01 on <span class=date_text>01-17-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 PM</span>

[Momolicio]

For non raid healing:Everyone has a tictac they like to work and thats fine, your best bet is to develop your own style so with that I will give you the spells I use an why, it is up to you on how to use them.GR - Group Reactive. = I like to start casting and timing the cast to complete a few seconds after the tank has started to take damage. Note: Startcasting, not precasting. This gives you a larger charge pool of heals on the tank allowing more time to deal with how the first few seconds of the fight transpire.Daze = I really really really enjoy the daze spells. They make a mob only use combat arts for the duration of the spell. The mobs do not autoattack. Now how I like to wedge this is: GR lands and most mobs deliver their first Combat Art (CA) at the onset of battle. The mob is then dazed and more then likely not going to use a CA again for 3-9 seconds. This creates a huge window for you to operate within.Mitigatin Debuff = More melee damage on the mob == quicker fight.SR - Single Reactive = I use this as the HP retainer, it is my most common health maintainer. I do not like to think of it as a heal, more as a counter damage. Quick Heal = I still use the Splitpaw heal as my quick heal. The 10% chance for a mana free heal is worth the HP differance IMO.BH - Big Heal == Coming from an EQ1 cleric I prefer my large heal as the true heal. I feel that with the Templar a large part of the play is learning how and when the damage comes and then anticipating it. With both the GR and BH I do alot of pre-cast and then duck when the spell is not needed at the time, which means I am usually a 0 DPS Templar...  (There are some nice macro out there that can be used to cancel the spell if you press the spell button during casting, I am oldschool and tried it and I ended up canceling when I didnt mean to.)<div></div>Fate = I really like Fate spells. I believe my liking of them has to do with my Main assist is usually in the room with me and therefor I can tell her to drop a low HP mob in an encounter for a backup heal. In regular situations though it is semi redundant. It is definatly a situational use spell. For example vs 1 mob its pointless as you can cast Group Heal after the fight.Mark = I always try to slip Mark in right before or after Mit Debuffing. The heal procs seem to work best on the fast melee classes, or maybe thats just an expression of the dual wield. On short fights in the lower end of the game it is not really worth it, but on longer ones it can really help. I like to get it in early so it has the max exposure to work but I would bump it out of casting lineup in a heartbeat if anything was out of whack. I would not be upset if it didnt land or if I didnt have the time to cast it unless it was a boss fight.Involuntary = This spell used to be so useless and now it has really been shined up and made spiffy. The mob type seems to effect its proc rate. The spell goes off when the mob attacks. I have noticed that rogue mobs are fantastic (like a mirror image of Mark and rogues). One thing I really like is in an encounter I will try to get this on all the mobs in the encounter, hardest mob first as most folks will leave it for last. (No I wont argue tactics, it is easier to drop encounter DPS via killing weakest mobs first. End of subject) One thing though with the new Involuntary line. It is an AE heal... to ALL within range. In dungeons it can heal other parties too, which can be bad if it goes off as they pull and wham you have adds. I will happily take those adds though as the cures and heals from the spell are well worth it.Reverence = I precast this on the tank whenever I can fit it in. I cast it on anyone who take damage when the damage is not critical needing a direct heal. I wish its duration was a bit longer but... Lets be honest here. 15 seconds is not a long time. It is one of those flavor spells you may or may not fit into your toolbelt. I always cast it on me whenever I have taken some hits and know I am going to be casting again. The real nitty gritty of this spell though is it does not heal for that much, but it does not cost you much to cast it. Stun = If I can I like to work stun in so it lands right after Daze wears off. Much like Mark, if I cant wedge it in there I wont cry. Stun just gives you some more time to land some debuffs, counter some damage, etc. The one concern is caster mobs. Stuns can save a long fight or a bad nuke. If you have a healer mob that just healed themselves (they start trying to at about 40% health) you know what their casting sounds like and or theur casting animation looks like. Stun their butt and save a longer fight. Like in Achedesium (sp?) where Dvinn will summon his posse. With a well timed stun and letting folks know to go full tilt at 30% health you can make the fight last 1 whole teleport less. Sure the posse spawns for the third round but he will be dead.The primary point is healing. After that we have some great debuffs that are worth your casting cycles to fit in. The biggest issue is not the tools we have but learning how and when to use them. That takes practice.Oh and in the low end of the game there are a large amount of characters that have high end gear (Twinks). So tanks often have a hard time keeping agro. Do not ever feel bad telling that rogue in full mastercrafted to stop taking agro. After the 3rd time ressing him he will learn.

[Molokan]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>The OP asked about how to play in a group so pre-casting isn’t off the mark, and is an option. It, as many said, depends on the encounter. Some will come right for you while others won’t. It does seems to be the job of the Templar to shadow and see that the MT returns to the group/raid in on piece due to our greater ability to take a hit. The pre-cast spells aren’t going to cover all the damage but they can cover enough and make a difference in what’s left for the other healers to protect once the MT has returned. If you have a good tank they should be able to protect you from your pre-cast most of the time, but keep that trigger finger on the hate debuff. </FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>I have found a simple solution to the pre-cast or not to pre-cast question. If I’m not certain I will simply have my pre-cast heal hit the moment after the mob is pulled. It changes the AI completely versus it landing before the actual pull. Hopefully your MT is warning you before the pull and even giving you a countdown so you can time this like a pro.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3>Hi Andriella :smileyhappy:</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Molokan on <span class=date_text>01-20-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>