Cross Raid Effectiveness

[da5idblacksun]

I've recently played in a few raids and discovered that if I'm not in the group with the main tank then I'm about 20% effective because most of our spells don't work across the raid.  Unless there is some kind of AOE attack from the MOB or aggro problems or perhaps two tanks or something, the people in my group weren't taking any damage.  Group heals are well .. group heals and not raid heals so those were out.  I could use a couple of debuffs and my single target reactive heal and that was about it.  Couldn't use group heals, couldn't use the atonement line, couldn't use most of my buffs.  Why do so many of our spells not work across the raid?  I felt like I wasn't contributing.  Am I missing something here?<div></div>

[Kizee]

<DIV>IMO its worthless to have 2 templars in raid unless you have 2 MT groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got stuck out of the MT group for the longest of time and its a snoozefest....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mabes]

<P>Yeah, it's gonna be a lot more boring if you're not in MT group and doing fights that require only one tank.  I'd suggust you work out with the other templar that you will do all the debuffing, letting him focus more on healing.  Also, some heals that do work cross raid are your single target reactive, direct heals, cure reactives, single target emergency reactive, and reverence.  You could also make effort to do dps, if you're well equiped you can get a consistant 600+ dps on fights that require little healing, isn't much relative to rest of raid, but it'll help fight boredom.</P> <P>But, the best advice I'd give is to get a stiff alcoholic beverage to keep things interesting :smileytongue:</P>

[da5idblacksun]

Was in a raid tonight to kill one mob 70x4.  There were 4 templars in the raid.  The MT held aggro the whole time and when the heal parse came, the Templars who were outside of the MT group (one of them being me) didn't output very much healing. In fact they were out-healed by a Necro.  I had my lotto heals up.  I cast the one debuff that works on epics.  I cast a few spot heals but mostly the tank health was staying full.  Reverence and Reactive heal was being overwritten since they don't stack. Some spells don't work on epics. Some spells don't work across raids. Half the spells the do work on epics and across the raid, don't stack. That doesn't leave very much. What am I missing?  How else can I contribute?

[Tash 1]

<p>Ok here is the deal. There is three different healer classes Cleric shamans and Druids They all have their different special heals. The group is naturally for the group the single is outside group for raid friend. The special heals are the most powerful heals you have. The direct are nice but it's just as a backup.<img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When two healers of the same type are present in the same raid the one in the MT-grp take care of the group special heal and the one outside take care of the single special heal. Why??<img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This spread the heals so that the healers heal about equal, and this spread hate so that not a single healer risk get the aggro. It also leaves the MTgrp healers free to cure faster and it give both healer chance to use their direct heals, debuffs and everything else the might want to use. So have 2 clerics in a raid is ok if you need more than 3 healers. (And most normal guilds do). At our last Lab named raid the 2 Templars come out top 1 and 2 at the zone wide heals. <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(Yes I know parsers not of any use) But Lol 4 Templars in a raid! Well I have to admit if so get your hammer out and do some dps instead of heals the raid probably do better with that!<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>/Hugs Tash</p>

[da5idblacksun]

It was a pickup raid so thats why the imbalance of classes happened.

[Magpie1]

<p>/agree with Tash. Having raided regularly as the only cleric in a raid, when I have had a second Templar dealing with the single target reactive it makes a huge difference and allows me to cast grp reactive, debuffs and cures. The icon for the single target reactive is also one of the ones that is easily visible on the MT so you can see when the other temp is busy and u can back them up.</p><p>I agree that you may not heal parse as well from outside the MT group but I would say a second Templar (or Inq) is much preferable to only one.</p>

[da5idblacksun]

Outside of MT group with a Templar in the MT group, a Templar can: 1. cast mitigation debuff (Sign line) 2. cast two lotto heals (Involuntary and Mark) 3. spot heal (both work) 4. do measely DPS (not recommended since we should be focused on keeping the tank alive) 5. potentially do a single target reactive heal and reverence (if the MT group templar has agreed not to do this - usually not the case). In the above mentioned raid I had the lotto heals up the whole time and I did some spot heals when needed.  My total healing for the encounter was about 2500!!??  I just don't see how to be (more) effective in the situation.  Lack of stacking, lack of cross-raid-able heals and lack of spells that work on Epics leave very little that does work. Have I missed anything?  Please tell me there is some other way I can contribute in this situation? The funny part was that the fabled loot was templar specific and the raid leader wasn't too pleased that the Templars who rolled on it didn't contribute very much.  In fact, the guy who won didn't show on the parse at all!  He wasn't in the MT group and he was casting his reactive and reverence (not sure why he didn't use lotto heals) so ended up with zero points of healing and he walked away with the fabled loot.  I spoke to him after and he wasn't aware of the lack of stacking. The raid leader went into 60-69 chat and complained a bit that the loot went to someone who didn't contribute.

[Tash 1]

<p>If the MTgrp Templar don't agree to have the single reactive cast by the outside grp templar its really just 2 alternatives. Either the outside MTgrp templar has really lousy reactive upgrade like adept1. Or the MTgrp Templar is just plain greedy or stupid. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As the standard MTgrp templar I always ask if there is a outside cleric to keep the single reactives up. Some times there is a need of two tank groups then I confirm that I take the responsibility for both the reactives so the other can keep the second tank up. If outside MTgrp I usulay go with the tanks and deal damage against the trashmobs. I know I never out dps a dps class but I deal enough damage for it shall count. With strength over 600 in grp and my nice 2-hander it really hurts to stand in the way <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The raid leader really should make the looting rules clear from start. There is not an option for a raid leader to start whining on the public channels after a raid complaining he distributed the loot in a stupid way. If a healer ends up with zero in healing and the raid went well and people was alive and happy. Well its not the healer done wrong it's the raid leader not knowing what classes he needed.<img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>/Hugs Tash</p>

[StaboCA]

In my experience, when it comes to raiding, optimally you often want Templars in both the MT and MA groups, usually for our HP buffs and reactives. If it’s an easy raid, the MA Templar isn’t that important, though we definitely help. But if your raid is going after more challenging targets it’s not uncommon for MT’s to go down and MA’s to step in and pick it up. (Or in a raid zone with a lot of adds that the MA is responsible for.) In those situations it’s pretty nice to have our Templar HP buffs and both reactive types available in the MA group. When raiding, if I’m not in the MT group, after I’ve debuffed, laid on the lotto heals/reverence, and verified the tank is doing OK, I’ll then shift some of my attention to the overall raids health, keeping my eyes open for people who’ve grabbed agro. Often life or death for the DPS classes rests on how quickly healers respond when they overplay their damage. The Templar in the MT group is often way too busy keeping the MT up to quickly react when a DPS pulls agro.  A quick single target reactive or heal on my part can often help keep the DPSer up until the MT or MA can regain agro. Lastly, Templars also seem to excel in raids when the #@%$ hits the fan. Granted, we all know our direct heals are not power efficient, but when the tanks health is in the yellow/red/purple and you need to crank out quick direct healing, I don’t think anyone can save the tanks bacon and spot heal better.

[Hopefulne]

<p>Having been in this situation i can tell you it is not too hard to come high on the heal parse if you're paying attention.</p><p>Yes you can make a deal with the MT templar to do the single target reactives and the debuffs (ideally you want to be doing the debuffs since the MT temp is gonna have their hands full ensuring the tank is cured and green in those precious first few seconds of the pull + debuffing is important IMO) but 75% of your healing is down to targeting and spot healing.</p><p>Using the single target heals on non grp raidees and use the grp reactive/direct for...well.. the grp.  You especially want to be in the melee grp for good parsage, (the squishies go down fast) as well as the Glory proc.</p><p>Personally, given the choice, i would only have 1 templar in a raid.  I'd put he MA in the MT grp. (SK or Pally for bonus healing and the mit buff) and allow the other grps to go pure dps. Again this is situational so /shrug</p><p>''Ideally'' you would prefer an inquis instead in this role imo (same single target reactive, more debuffin and aggressive buffage)</p><p>And as StaboCA said:</p><p>''Templars - great for when the ^*&% hits the fan''</p>