Hardcarp on +healing items

[Uilamin]

I did some testing today with +healing items and certain spells and found that spells have a hardcap on how much they can be affected by +healing items, well atleast certain spells.I did my testing with mark of the celestial apprentice 2 and found that this spell seemed to cap at 34hp/tick off a base of 28.  Now there could just be a mass of diminishing returns that severly hampered it, but when I equiped a +30 healing item when mark was already at 34/tick it stayed there while my other spells went up.<div></div>

[Uilamin]

I did some more testing and with adept 3 there seems to be a cap in place as well, this time at 50/tick.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

I'm kind of interested to find this out myself...  Is it really that low?

[Bjerde]

I was looking at my Mark spell last night again. At Adept III, it says that it heals for 50, there is no range there. Yet, even with two healing adornments and tunare cloak it still heals for 48 or 50, those are the only two numbers I ever see it proc at. So, I would say yeah there is a hard cap on this spell. If you have a Master you may get 52 or 53 out of it.<div></div>

[Uilamin]

it is +6 off the base for MoC... rather sad that it is that low.<div></div>

[Dragonreal]

that's because it's a regen and regens are normalized by number of ticks (up to a max of 5 ticks) so divide 30/5 (assuming MoC has more than 5 ticks?) and you get the number that the +healing adds per tick (6).. you actually end up with more than +30 healing though if there's more than 5 ticks.<div></div>

[EQAditu]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:that's because it's a regen and regens are normalized by number of ticks (up to a max of 5 ticks) so divide 30/5 (assuming MoC has more than 5 ticks?) and you get the number that the +healing adds per tick (6).. you actually end up with more than +30 healing though if there's more than 5 ticks.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Its four ticks actually.  But the point you're missing is that it won't go higher than 50 no matter what.  I think my Adept III is listed as 43x4, and I'm running around with +195 healing adornments...  guess what the spell heals for...  yep, 50.Our reactives work more or less how you say... since they have much larger numbers, they don't meet the (percentage?) cap so easily.</div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQAditu wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its four ticks actually.  But the point you're missing is that it won't go higher than 50 no matter what.  I think my Adept III is listed as 43x4, and I'm running around with +195 healing adornments...  guess what the spell heals for...  yep, 50.<BR><BR>Our reactives work more or less how you say... since they have much larger numbers, they don't meet the (percentage?) cap so easily.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So I guess what I'm looking to hear, is the "adds x to healing spells" is still worthwhile to get?  Stuff like the Mark line or GoC I'm not as worried about as much.  Has anyone figured out reactive caps?  Would Tunares +50% healing blessing be able to exceed that?  Have I asked too many questions?

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div></div>I have been unable to reach the +healing cap of any normal spell of over level 10.  The level 5? spell "Healing" that heals for 60hp at App1 caps out at around +60 healing.  Another spell in that line(2.0 casting) which had a base value of 171, I could not cap.  I got the expected value of 0.667*healing amount.I haven't tested with reactives much since I had to dig pretty deep to find a direct heal small enough to reach a cap.  The above example was 166% of normal, btw.  That may be the same for any direct heal, or at the least our 2.0 casting direct heals.I was also apparently hallucinating when I said I had +195 to healing, I only have +170...  I'll do some more testing when I get my final adornment to reach 210.  This will allow me to surpass my 171hp secondary test to see if it caps at 200% of normal, 166% normalized.I'll also have to see if the cap is 200% unnormalized or not, meaning if the normalization of spells under 3.0s casting can affect its cap.I think we make out pretty well with reactives though... no matter the casting time on them, because they are spread out in charges, they always follow the formula of (+healing)/5 per charge.  So our single target reactive gets 5/5 or 100% of the effects, our group reactive gets 9/5 or 180% of the effects, and our stun reactive gets 300%(15/5) of the effects. <span>:smileysurprised:The +50% healing miracle from Tunare may indeed get truncated by the 166%/200%(whichever it is) cap.  I don't see why it would not.  You would still need ~1000 in added healing to max out(200%) our largest spell.  At least +250 to max our our reactives.  Even more than those if you used the blessing version which is much less added(I forgot how much).</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by EQAditu on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 AM</span>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>I actually did some quick math to understand Mark of the Celestial and possibly our reactives better.I said above that divided spells always divide the +healing by five and adds it to each charge.  If we were to assume every healing spell has a cap of +100%, then Marks make sense, and you can add that logic to reactives.My Mark has a listed value of 41.  The maximum addition in +healing is 100%, or 41.  Split spells get divided by 5, which is 8.2 per tick.  Or a maximum tick of 49.2.  Rounded up, this would be correct.  Master MoC may be 56-57 per tick.Master1 Glorious Intercession(433-530 on EQ2iDB) would supposedly have caps of 86.6 and 106 for each end of its range.  That is supposing that the cap can be different for each end of the range.  I haven't tested that yet.  But for the sake of simplicity, the high end range could only take 530 in +healing, which would add 106 to each charge.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

What you are saying makes absolute sense so thanks for explaining it Aditu.  So let me clarify, all our lotto heals are divided by 5, but our reactive heals are divided by the number of ticks it has correct?

[Uilamin]

EQAD to add to your percentage data.Mark of the Celestial ap2 - 28 base - cap at 34Mark of the Celestial adp3 - 41 base - cap at 50This however doesn't correlate with your other data, as the bonuses for mark are about 22%.<div></div>

[Momolicio]

I am not sure about the numbers though.I only have the Symetry IV T7 cloak.  +20 to heals an damage.Master2 MoC. (Base of 49)(1163978994)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:54 2006] You are marked.(1163978994)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:54 2006] a Mistmoore watcher hits YOU for 147 piercing damage.(1163978997)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:57 2006] YOUR Mark of Nobility heals YOURSELF for 53 hit points.(1163978997)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:57 2006] a Mistmoore watcher hits YOU for 185 piercing damage.(1163978999)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:59 2006] YOUR Mark of Nobility heals YOURSELF for 53 hit points.<div></div>I would be willing to bet Symetry cap is seperate from +Healing cap and +healing wind cap.I only have the 1 item so far so I cant test much beyond that. I keep tryin to get folks to give me the Buckler of Blight but they keep insisting I hand them plats first.

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Uilamin wrote:EQAD to add to your percentage data.Mark of the Celestial ap2 - 28 base - cap at 34Mark of the Celestial adp3 - 41 base - cap at 50This however doesn't correlate with your other data, as the bonuses for mark are about 22%.<div></div><hr></blockquote>It correlates perfectly if you do the math exactly the same as I've shown.<ul><li>Mark of the Celestial ap2 - <b>28</b> base - cap at <u>34</u></li><ul><li>+<b>28</b> max addition (200%)</li><li><b>28</b> / 5 = <i>5.6</i></li><li><b>28</b> + <i>5.6</i> = <u>33.6</u></li><ul><li>Rounded to <u>34</u></li></ul></ul><li>Mark of the Celestial adp3 - <b>41</b> base - cap at <u>50</u></li><ul><li>+<b>41</b> max addition (200%)</li><li><b>41</b> / 5 = <i>8.2</i></li><li><b>41</b> + <i>8.2</i> = <u>49.2</u></li><ul><li>Rounded to <u>50</u></li></ul></ul></ul>It's just that your assumption of 200% would mean that 34 would turn to 68 and 50 would turn to 100.  That is obviously <u>not</u> how it works for split heals.<hr size="2" width="100%"><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">I am not sure about the numbers though.I only have the Symetry IV T7 cloak.  +20 to heals an damage.Master2 MoC. (Base of 49)(1163978994)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:54 2006] You are marked.(1163978994)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:54 2006] a Mistmoore watcher hits YOU for 147 piercing damage.(1163978997)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:57 2006] YOUR Mark of Nobility heals YOURSELF for 53 hit points.(1163978997)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:57 2006] a Mistmoore watcher hits YOU for 185 piercing damage.(1163978999)[Sun Nov 19 15:29:59 2006] YOUR Mark of Nobility heals YOURSELF for 53 hit points.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>I've been using mixed adornments, symmetry and healing pulse items.  They all work the same and go towards the same cap as far as I can tell.  Your quoted example still completely follows my displayed math.<ul><li>Master2 MoC. (Base of 49) - <u>53</u> hit points.<u></u></li><ul><li>+<b>20</b> addition (138%)</li><li><b>20</b> / 5 = <i>4</i></li><li>49 + <i>4</i> = <u>53</u></li></ul></ul><hr size="2" width="100%"><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">What you are saying makes absolute sense so thanks for explaining it Aditu.  So let me clarify, all our lotto heals are divided by 5, but our reactive heals are divided by the number of ticks it has correct?<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>It's not whether or not its a lotto heal.  We have several different types, after all.  There are two rule sets: Normalization of 3.0s casting time, or split heals divided by 5.  Involuntary Restoration is a proc with a zero casting time as far as the engine is concerned, so it gets next to zero.  Mark of the Celestial is a proc too, but it's a split heal, so it follows the second normalization rule instead.  Our direct heals are not split, so follow the 3.0s rule... <strike>our reactives are split so follow the divide by 5 rule</strike>.  Group direct heals could be strange, but they are not group regens, so I think they follow 3.0s normalization.<strike>Just because I have not yet, I'll add a bulleted theoretical calculation of our group reactive with an arbitrary +healing of 200:</strike><ul><li><strike>Dire Intercession, Adept III. (480 highend range)</strike></li><ul><li><strike>+<b>200</b> addition (142%)</strike></li><li><strike><b>200</b> / 5 = <i>40</i></strike></li><li><strike>480 + <i>40</i> = <u>520</u></strike></li><ul><li><strike>Old value: 480 * 9 = 4320</strike></li><li><strike>New value: 520 * 9 = 4680 (109%)</strike></li></ul></ul></ul><strike>This means that the maximum potential increase is 120% for the 200% +healing cap.  Which is a fraction of five, which we were dividing by to begin with.</strike><i>Reactives don't seem to follow the calculations I've been using for Mark of the Celestial.  I need to figure out what it does use.</i></div><p>Message Edited by EQAditu on <span class=date_text>12-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:38 PM</span>

[Raistlan]

I recommend some of you guys have a look at our direct heals as well - I would but I don't have the time to do anything cept raid (stupid work).  But the reason I suggest it, is because I checked how much Grand Restoration went up when I equipped the +30 healing belt from clockwork menace, and to my dismay, it only went up by 24.... which is pretty screwed up considering spells are normalised around a 3 second cast time arent they, and considering thats what GR is, pre-haste..... not to mention longest recast time of any direct heal... exactly what spell out there does get a full bonus from an adornment?<div></div>

[Momolicio]

Aditu:Added Somborn legs to the Rare cloak and your spot on with the M2 Celestial. 57 (49 base + (+40 healing/5) = 57.Direct heals are a toughy though. I too am curious why the longer casting spells do not get the full benefit, is it spell caliber related? Masters getting full?<div></div>

[Maheret]

anyone know if Symmetry items stack? and how high it goes? I have 2 Symmetry II items and one Symmetry IV item. I also have the tunare cloak with healing pulse IV on it. So my question is do all of them stack with each other? and has anyone figured out what the cap is? I know thats what this is about but I havne figured it out =)<div></div>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>I can say with certainty that the cap depends on the spell the effects are being applied to, so there is no one answer to what the cap is.  So don't look for one <span>:smileyhappy:</span>As for direct heals, spell haste <b>does</b> matter.  If your current spell cast time is under 3.0s you will get less.  Bug or not, it's how it works.<div></div>

[Raistlan]

Well, I think it's bugged then, I'm sure I read somewhere that spell haste shouldnt factor into anything, ever.<div></div>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>You possibly read that from here: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=86786#M86786" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=86786#M86786</a>Anyhow, the normalization for reactives seems to be approx 0.16666(one-sixth)...  Don't ask me why, but that's what matches the best.  In most cases at least.  Some are off by a point either way.  The cap still seems to correctly apply to the reactives.  If your Supplicant's Prayer say's it's base value is 115, then +120 will cap it.That seems to be the quickest rule of thumb for the +healing caps.  You can have up to the amount listed on the spell in +healing before reaching the cap.  What the amount added to the spell is of course variable on normalization.<div></div>

[Hopefulne]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Um. Mark ticks instantly and every 2s for 8s</DIV> <DIV>0s, 2s, 4s, 6s, 8s is 5 ticks  :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[rtoub]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQAditu wrote:<BR> You possibly read that from here: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=86786#M86786" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=86786#M86786</A><BR><BR>Anyhow, the normalization for reactives seems to be approx 0.16666(one-sixth)...  Don't ask me why, but that's what matches the best.  In most cases at least.  Some are off by a point either way.  The cap still seems to correctly apply to the reactives.  If your Supplicant's Prayer say's it's base value is 115, then +120 will cap it.<BR><BR>That seems to be the quickest rule of thumb for the +healing caps.  You can have up to the amount listed on the spell in +healing before reaching the cap.  What the amount added to the spell is of course variable on normalization.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The dev told me that display values were bugged after I described exact numbers and how cast time reductions were reducing +healing amounts. 

[Boli32]

<div></div>You think that is weird... my fury regen is ticking for 534 initially and then 498 subseqently (pre crit). Do your reactives have a similar effect? Wondering if they are messed around with your numbers i.e. added to the initial regen/reactive<div></div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Hopefulness wrote:<div><div><div>Um. Mark ticks instantly and every 2s for 8s</div><div>0s, 2s, 4s, 6s, 8s is 5 ticks  :smileytongue:</div></div></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm, who are you responding to?  Anyhow, it doesn't matter if it has 2 ticks or 2000 ticks, the formula would be the same.  So the difference between 4 and 5 isn't much. <span>:smileytongue:</span><blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">The dev told me that display values were bugged after I described exact numbers and how cast time reductions were reducing +healing amounts.<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>Certainly possible.  I don't use the INT line so I have zero testing on it myself.  Just the rare times that the bard I'm with has casting time reduction.<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%">You think that is weird... my fury regen is ticking for 534 initially and then 498 subseqently (pre crit). Do your reactives have a similar effect? Wondering if they are messed around with your numbers i.e. added to the initial regen/reactive<hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>My <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTE1OTExNjMwNzQ=">Plate Helm of the Ether</a> which normally heals for 150pts statically, does so for 174 initially then 166 for the remainder.  Unfortunately reactives are all variable amounts, so it's extremely hard to test if reactives also get an initial burst.  But it would start to explain why our reactives seem to get 1/6th of the +healing instead of 1/5th like it should.  It could be that the difference of 1/5th and 1/6th is taken from the split ticks and added to the first tick as burst healing.It might be too much to hope that you'll read this again, but could you provide some more sample numbers including what the spell description says it should be, what it is initially then for the remainder <i>and</i> how much +healing you have?</div>

[Judist]

<P>Defiler here, tested it out with my single and group wards. Both are  Master 1's. I have 2 adorned items for +40 heals each which is called Clemency of the Pontiff. I couldnt get my hands on other +heal items yet to see how they stack.</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Single ward - 2 second cast</FONT></P> <P>No +heals<BR>  1788 Displayed<BR>  1789 Actual</P> <P>+40 Adornment<BR>  1820 Displayed +33 Displayed<BR>  1821 Actual +33 Actual</P> <P>+80 Adornments<BR>  1852 Displayed +64 Displayed<BR>  1853 Actual +64 Actual</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Group ward - 5 second cast</FONT></P> <P>No +heals<BR>  3346 Displayed<BR>  3348 Actual</P> <P>+40 Adornment<BR>  3362 Displayed +16 Displayed<BR>  3396 Actual +48 Actual</P> <P>+80 Adornments<BR>  3378 Displayed +32 Displayed<BR>  3444 Actual +96 Actual<BR>  <BR>Definitly display bug somewhere. It can be easilly seen with the group ward. I do seem to be getting the desired returns. Hope this information helps.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 AM</span>

[Judist]

<P>Double post</P><p>Message Edited by BeatinGuts on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 AM</span>

[TheBu]

<p>is ther currently a hard cap on +to heals? what is it? and is is the same for symmetry? or is is separate cap?</p><p>are + to heals done the same as symmetry? aka does a group heal /3 on top of a /tick</p><p>tho the parses show deffrent levels to the heals like a fury hot that is fixed. is that from the spell haste i get? or just the random of the "upto" + to heal? </p><p>I thinking symmetry is normalized to a 3 and divided by the ticks (max 5) and then if it is aoe / 3 again... </p>