DPS and its vital importance to casual playstyle Templars

[Caethre]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4><STRONG><U>DPS and its vital importance to casual playstyle Templars<BR></U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><U><STRONG></STRONG></U></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><U><STRONG>Background</STRONG></U></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before I begin this, I will state the following three points, that should be borne in mind when reading the entire content of the rest of the post, as it is with these points in mind that the rest of the post is relevant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly, I believe, after careful testing and analysis over the last few months, that Templar DPS on the Live servers at this time (ie prior to EOF release), is just about where it should be. This is both relative to the content that casual players face, and relative to the DPS of the classes we compete with for group places (ie other priest classes). It is because of the fact that I believe the DPS seems to be in approximately the right place, at least for those Templars at level 70, that I have been fairly quiet on this issue in recent months. This is a thumbs up to SOE, and a thumbs up to the majority of the Templar community that helped generate the feedback that lead to this state of balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second point I will state from the start, is that this debate centres on one core issue: CLASS BALANCE. This</DIV> <DIV>means, in general, class balance between the priest classes, and specifically, class balance between the two</DIV> <DIV>priest classes I know very well indeed, TEMPLAR and FURY. I make absolutely no apologies for making class</DIV> <DIV>balance analysis on the two classes I play, and if you do not want to read more TEMPLAR vs FURY comparisons,</DIV> <DIV>I'd suggest you stop reading now, because this post is full of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The third and final opening point I will make is this. I am looking at the casual player playstyle. I look at solo DPS. I look at the DPS that Templars bring to small groups (duos and trios). And I look at the DPS that Templars bring to full groups against moderate content and easier content. Basically, I am looking at the playstyle of players like myself, who are not raiders and have no interest in being raiders, and yet still wish to see class balance for our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><U><STRONG>Ok, How Much DPS Is "Enough"?</STRONG></U></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This question was posed on another thread. Time for me to step up to the plate and answer this question. The answer comes in two parts, and "enough" must meet both of these criteria to be "enough".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1) DPS vs PVE Content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a simple one. There needs to be enough DPS to allow Templars to complete solo content that they are generally expected to be able to complete, and not just be able to complete it, but to be able to complete it in a reasonable timescale. I will not be addressing this issue in the remainder of this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(2) DPS vs Other Priest Classes (I will concentrate on the Fury class)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the more complex one. Templars need enough DPS, such that they can reasonably be able to compete for small groups and full groups against Furies. This does not mean they need enough to ensure they ALWAYS get that slot, but it does mean that it needs to be enough to ensure that there is a reasonable choice to choose either class. If however, we were to have a situation where any group leader who is not insane would always choose the Fury over the Templar due to the Templar DPS being so much lower, then we would not have enough DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will notice in those two points, I do not quote any numbers. Whether it is 200 DPS or 2000+ DPS is not actually important, the exact numbers are often manipulated anyway, especially when people start quoting figures attained in raids (which are totally irrelevant to this thread anyway, see above). What is important in assessing whether or not the Templar class has enough DPS is encompassed entirely within (1) and (2) above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><U><STRONG>So why all this hullabaloo about Templar DPS Anyway?</STRONG></U></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer that, I will recount a little history, from the perspective of many casual playstyle Templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I remember the days between LU13 and KOS release. I remember carrying out detailed parses, proving that the Fury class had between 250% and 300% of the DPS of a Templar in solo settings at that time, across a wide range of targets. I remember being asked to log out my Templar and log in my Fury for groups, so that we could "get things done". I remember receiving reports of Templars LFG for hours on end, whilst Furies picked up groups at once. I even remember getting reports of Templars being booted from pick up groups as soon as a Fury went LFG, given the reason "sorry mate, your DPS sucks, that Fury can heal as well as you and we'll kill things so much faster".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we were left either soloing (at a terirbly slow rate), or feeling like charity cases when grouping with friends. In my case, it was particularly poignant, as both I and my friends were aware of how much faster the group would get XP, complete the writ, or whatever, if I just logged Felishanna out and logged in Annaelisa. It simply was untenable!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are recorded facts to me, not opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore, I also remember a small number of Templars in this community not supporting their casual playstyle brethren in this, saying things like "well you should re-roll if you don't like it", or "well you should change yor playstyle and fight harder content" or even "well Templar is meant as a hardgroup/raid only class, so like it or shut up". This was and remains unacceptable as a way to deal with the imbalance problem. I described the class at that time as "broken" for my playstyle, and I still believe it was, at that time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fortunately for today's Templars, and due entirely to the long campaign of detailed feedback from a large number of Templars such as myself, SOE looked into it and fixed the problem at KOS release, by creating a path for casual playstyle Templars to improve their DPS to a point where no longer we had this massive DPS deficit compared to the Fury class, and things are much closer to balance. Kudos to SOE, kudos to the majority of the Templar community, and no thanks at all to the minority who just wanted to see us forced to change playstyle or re-roll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG><U>So, if you think we have enough DPS now, why are you raising this issue now?</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This question has also been posed to me, and it deserves an answer. The reason I raise this issue now is based in the history of the Templar class (for the casual player playstyle!), and in making sure that history is not allowed to repeat itself!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am looking at the EOF AP skills, and I am worried. The Templar AP skills do indeed include some DPS options, and that is a good good thing, for casual playstyle Templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I am also looking at the Fury ones, and I see the DPS hike that Annaelisa will be getting is truely massive, and I am concerned. I do not want history to repeat, and I do not want casual playstyle Templars to once again feel like charity cases in the future in small groups and full groups vs moderate content. Templar DPS must continue to be not far behind Fury DPS, not be allowed to drop to the tiny fraction it once was, or history will repeat for players in my playstyle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is the heart of my concern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I am a raider, or a big guild leader or similar, why do I care about these issues?</STRONG></FONT></U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, to be blunt, maybe you do not, indeed, maybe you even feel that to you, casual playstyle Templars are of no importance. If this is your position, fine, I have no problem with that (really I don't, you play how you want to play), and indeed, I can even sympathise with you concentrating on issues that do matter to you and not those that do not. This is not an issue for some of you, I agree, and I do not expect you to "fight my fight" for the rest of the Templar community. Indeed, why should you, and frankly I am more than capable of representing myself, and I know for a fact that many other casual player Templars (and some raid Templars as well for that matter) will agree with my concerns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, that is not a reason to ridicule us, tell us we are noobs, tell us we are spouting hyperbole or exaggerating, or telling us to change our playstyle or just shut up and go away, or indeed, any other such patronising commentary. There is no need for any of that, and it will lead to a re-opening of the internecine war the mods were forever having to deal with back in the day, and there is no good coming from that. Keep comments non-personal and attempt not to ridicule the playstyle of others, please.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ffff00>In Summary</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not an issue at this moment. It was an issue once, and I wish to sound that warning bell, it may be an issue again if it is not made clear the risks at this early stage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all. Thank you for reading (if you got this far). <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rast]

<P>I must admit, that was well written.  </P> <P>Personally, I could accept the lower dps IF we were the rulers of healing (which is where I think we SHOULD be).  But if a fury can heal as well as I can, I should be able to output the same damage they can.  And if they wanted to give furies more dps at an expense of us getting more healing I'd have no issue with that and I believe that is the way it SHOULD be.  Class balance is a dream, a nightmare really.  No class should be perfectly balanced to another, otherwise why have classes at all.  Each class should have unique abilities that make them desirable to given circumstances.  Each class should have a role, not each archtype (archtypes are BAD!!!!)</P> <P>Granted, I play a healer to be a *gasp* healer and not additional damage and I've not ever felt like a charity case in guild groups with my templar (my paladin, sure, but not my templar).  I play the primary healer and let the fury deal damage while I concentrate on keeping everyone alive and I have surprised myself that I'm not too bad at that.  Don't get me wrong, I throw in a few nukes and I'm not above wading in and swinging my hammer some (that is why I wear plate), but first and foremost is my job to keep others alive.  If I can't do that, then I'm not doing my "job".</P> <P>I can tell you (being a player of both a templar and a paladin) I've really noticed very little difference between the solo abilities of the two classes.  The paladin has a bit more in regards to AoEs (they actually have some), but for a one on one fight, I really couldn't have told there was a difference in the length of battle.  I admit, many told me to avoid the templar because it wasn't solo friendly, but I've found that is not the case (at least now).</P> <P>I may roll up a fury at some point to check it out, but the little I've played of them, they were far more 'squishy' than I cared for (a personal preference).</P>

[Archill]

<div></div>Until I hear from all the other priest classes on whether or not their dps is balanced with templar/fury, I don't think it's fair for us to ask for more. I imagine if the fury is getting too much it will be scaled back.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Archill on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[Bjerde]

LOL, has it ever been scaled back? No, they got an increase along with ALL the priests back awhile ago. SOE has determined that Furies will do great DPS and that is not likely to change. <div></div>

[Olivet]

holy crap, ive read some rambles in the past but this one takes the cake! - forcing me to reply!what is the point of this thread?  asking the devs to give templars more dps in the expansion? nerf the furies?  in one sentence you say the dps is where it should be, trhe next you say its lacking compared to furies.As I dont like rambling, I'll keep it short and sweet (and truthful)* I've NEVER been asked to leave a group for a fury, nor even heard of that happening.  Maybe there is another reason this is happening to you?* After a DPS respec, I'm doing more dps in raids than the furies - have you tried the dps setup Kendricke has put up?  Read it.. it makes an enormous difference.* EOF AA for furies are dps based more so than templars? Uhh... ofcourse it is... templars shine in other areas, such as wearing plate, and having insanely high resists* Soloing - Again, read Kendricke's post on dps, respec, try it out. You will notice you suddenly have enough dps to do writs in an acceptable time.* The last fury I've duelled dropped in under 10 seconds... if their defence and HP is lacking that bad (which is bloody well is) why deny them some DPS?/ramble off<div></div>

[Gastrob]

<P>I guess I only have 2 things to say on this:</P> <P>1) I have never been asked to leave a group for a Fury-or any other healer class.</P> <P>2) I have never had to stand around for hours to get into a group.</P> <P> </P> <P>Grimmsdahl Level 70 Templer Nek server.</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Olivetti wrote:<BR><BR>what is the point of this thread?  <P><FONT color=#ff9900>If you do not know, then you didn't read it carefully enough, in your rush to reply.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>In addition, if you see no point to a thread, I'd advise you not to reply to it just to try to attack the poster, as that could be seen by the board moderators as baiting, which is against the rules of the forum. Yes, your response to me was a series of personal attacks, and that is not a wise approach on the official message boards.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> <P>* I've NEVER been asked to leave a group for a fury, nor even heard of that happening.  Maybe there is another reason this is happening to you?<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>I didn't say that that actually happened to me, because it hasn't. However, it did happen to a number of others, and the reason was the lack of DPS at that time, no other reason. Just because it hasn't happened to you does not make it less true - but were you even playing a high level Templar back in those days? Regardless, this is historical fact. If you had read my post carefully, you would know I was referring to a time prior to KOS release, not at any point since then.</FONT></P> <P>* After a DPS respec, I'm doing more dps in raids than the furies - have you tried the dps setup Kendricke has put up?  Read it.. it makes an enormous difference.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>Again, had you read my post rather than skimmed it, you would have seen that I am specifically NOT talking about raids. There are indeed reasons why Templars would out DPS Furies on raids if both are just healing and the Templar is meleeing, but frankly that is<U> totally irrelevent to this thread</U>, because as I said in my post very clearly, this thread is not about raids. Or are you claiming to out-DPS equivalent Furies when soloing? If so, I'd be interesting to hear details of your DPS claims...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>As for referring me to Kendrickes thread, you do this not having a clue who I am or what my current KOS AP skill spec is. That is fair, because I didn't say, but that is because, once again, it is not relevant to this thread - which you would know if you had actually read the opening post carefiully. But for your information, I already have the AP skill set up that Kendricke discusses, indeed, I had it before he posted on the subject, it is clearly the best set up for a small grouping Templar.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Now try reading my entire initial post and understand what I am actually talking about before launching a series of personal comments aimed at the poster (me).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>As an aside, you are the person claiming to be out-damaging Assassins and Necromancers on raids are you not? I'll leave commenting on that to others, because again, this thread is not about raids.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>You seem to be a newcomer to the class, and you come across as being somewhat inexperienced, so I will cut you some slack, and leave it at that.<BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Goozman]

<DIV>I was also studying the differences between Fury/Templar healing ad dps during the DoF stages and my numbers were always so different than yours. The dps ratios on templar spells compared to Fury spells were almost identical. The only issue was Furies having 250-400 INT and Templars usually having an INT of 50 or so. I played with parses over and over and always found Templar dps to be respectable when the INT buffs were applied... everyone was always shocked how their numbers went up with more INT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also the worn out Templar arguments are so unbelievably ridiculous... If THEY can heal as well as us, we should be able to dps as well as THEM... HELLO Furies do not heal as well as Templars... I don't know how that fallacy still lives. Also, Priests aren't all 2 dimensional like Furies are, it's not just healing and dps. Templars also get far superior buffs (if you deny this, you probably haven't played the game longer than 1 month), better debuffs (not the best, but they do reduce their own damage type resist and physical mitigation debuffs are awesome), and much better armor. How fair is it that on live right now Templars have stronger heals (<EM>the 57 heal is about as strong as the fury 60 heal and costs less power with a lower recast</EM>), better specialty heals (<EM>cast reactives and go afk</EM>), better buffs (<EM>able to significantly raise the survivability of groups</EM>), better debuffs (<EM>able to increase their own dps as well as the dps of the entire group/raid</EM>), better equipment, and also better single target dps (<EM>and it's mostly power free too!)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry... I don't, and never have, bought this whole Templar whine-fest. And if the Fury aa's enable them to outdps high end dps classes on a consistant basis... I dare say all 6 Priests should be proportionately reduced in dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Also, I don't buy the whole getting kicked for a Fury, unless the Templar sucked. And now that you say you are just a secondary source, that closes that case. And on what solo mobs is your Templar not outdamaging a Fury? If the mob isn't dead after Starnova and Thunderbolt, the Templar's dps is going to be higher. If those 2 nukes kill the mob, then the Fury will win.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Rast]

<P>I can tell you know, I know of people who have both templars and furys and they say for dps there is no comparison, the fury blows the templar away.</P> <P>And yes, I think all the classes can heal about the same (and for certain classes better than the templar).  My one friend says he has trouble keeping up with his templar, but with his fury he has no such issues.  In fact, it was he who recommended that I roll a fury instead of a templar for that very reason.</P> <P>There has been much debate on reactives vs HoT vs Wards and to be honest, since reactives only work when you are hit via a melee strike, they aren't as practical as a HoT or a Ward that work against any form of damage, or a ward on a monk who may only get hit one time during the life of the ward/reactive but gets teh full benefit of the ward, but only 1/3 of the reactive.</P> <P>In order for templars to be effective in healing, the tank has to be physically (not magically) hit.</P> <P>There are two things that I think would level this.</P> <P>1) Treat reactives like wards and any unused portion is 'granted' at the expiration of the spell.</P> <P>2) Allow reactives to trigger vs magical attacks</P> <P>Give us those two things and I think that templars would be on par for any tank in the game, instead of mit tanks only.</P>

[Goozman]

<DIV>Last time I checked, yesterday, they worked on magical attacks.</DIV>

[Rast]

I've had times where reactives didn't fire when the player was hit.  I watched one time while the player went down to half health on a couple hits (and me spamming my single heals) only to see my reactive expire unused.  I'd finish the fight with no power and the tank still nearly half dead and my reactives were useless during any part of the fight (figure out after the first couple fights to not use my reactives against that set of mobs).

[Caethre]

<FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.<BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>I can tell you know, I know of people who have both templars and furys and they say for dps there is no comparison, the fury blows the templar away.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Don't worry about Goozman. His posts and the truth seldom coincide. He wants a god-class, basically, and anything less means Furies are grossly underpowered to him.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Back in the real world, I play both Felishanna (my Templar, level 70, 35 APs, legendary gear) and Annaelisa (my Fury, level 70, 21 APs, mastercrafted gear) regularly, and although I love them both to bits, care deeply about both classes, and would never give up either, when it comes to solo DPS, Felishanna hasn't a prayer (pun not intended).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Any claims about <U>casual player</U> Templars outdamaging equivalently geared/AP-skilled <U>casual player</U> Furies when <U>soloing</U> are just made up. I know the facts first hand, but I'm not saying anything here that pretty much everyone doesn't already know. This difference in DPS, however, is offset to some extent by Templar survivability, since Templars and Furies both need to tank the mobs (at least, they do at the moment on live), and in small groups, Templars can hold their own not too badly versus Furies at this point, and from my experience of both classes, I do assess them to be not far from balanced at the moment, and I'll settle for that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>However, the difference in DPS now is really nothing like it used to be prior to KOS. What is more, when the developers investigated the numbers back then, they found what I and many other casual player Templars had been saying was true, <U><STRONG>which is why they corrected it</STRONG></U> (and they said so in public that the numbers were wrong and that lead to the changes). That is a somewhat inconvenient fact that Goozman cannot get around.</FONT></P> <P>And yes, I think all the classes can heal about the same (and for certain classes better than the templar).  My one friend says he has trouble keeping up with his templar, but with his fury he has no such issues.  In fact, it was he who recommended that I roll a fury instead of a templar for that very reason.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>it depends on setting. Healing a plate tank versus single target mobs, Felishanna seems to have the edge. Healing an avoidance tank versus multiple mobs (especially if they are hitting several party members), Annaelisa feels much stronger. Overall though, I'd place them about equal for my playstyle. Felishanna might have the edge again if I was facing very hard content. All these cases though, the difference is in the small numbers of percent, so not really a worry either way. But again, this thread is about casual players against normal content anyway.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>You are correct though. If Templars direct healing were suddenly boosted to be say 50% stronger than that of Furies, the case for Furies lead in DPS being made stronger would be there as well. However, I don't see SOE choosing that path, personally.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Olivet]

hehe.. im sorry if I offended you with my post, which seems to have been the case, it was not the intention.HOWEVER ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  /flame on.  1. <p><font color="#ff9900">If you do not know, then you didn't read it carefully enough, in your rush to reply.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff9900">In addition, if you see no point to a thread, I'd advise you not to reply to it just to try to attack the poster, as that could be seen by the board moderators as baiting, which is against the rules of the forum. Yes, your response to me was a series of personal attacks, and that is not a wise approach on the official message boards.</font></p><p>I guess you are right in some sense.. I DID try to read it carefully.. i promise...really!... it was just to hard to follow your logic.. and Im still not sure what the point of this thread is... are you trying to bring lack of GROUP/SOLO dps of templars in EOF to the Devs attention?  </p><p>I guess its just my fragile little mind not following... let me explain why with using quotes from your original post:</p><p><font color="#cc6600">Firstly, I believe, after careful testing and analysis over the last few months, that Templar DPS on the Live servers at this time (ie prior to EOF release), is just about where it should be. This is both relative to the content that casual players face, and relative to the DPS of the classes we compete with for group places (ie other priest classes). It is because of the fact that I believe the DPS seems to be in approximately the right place, at least for those Templars at level 70, that I have been fairly quiet on this issue in recent months. This is a thumbs up to SOE, and a thumbs up to the majority of the Templar community that helped generate the feedback that lead to this state of balance.<font color="#ff9900"></font></font></p><p>To me, this seems like youre saying:  SOE is doing a good job with Templar DPS and its at an acceptable level! </p><p>Then you follow on to post this:  </p><div> </div> <div><font color="#cc6600">(1) DPS vs PVE Content.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600">This is a simple one. There needs to be enough DPS to allow Templars to complete solo content that they are generally expected to be able to complete, and not just be able to complete it, but to be able to complete it in a reasonable timescale. I will not be addressing this issue in the remainder of this post.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600">(2) DPS vs Other Priest Classes (I will concentrate on the Fury class)</font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600">This is the more complex one. Templars need enough DPS, such that they can reasonably be able to compete for small groups and full groups against Furies. This does not mean they need enough to ensure they ALWAYS get that slot, but it does mean that it needs to be enough to ensure that there is a reasonable choice to choose either class. If however, we were to have a situation where any group leader who is not insane would always choose the Fury over the Templar due to the Templar DPS being so much lower, then we would not have enough DPS.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600">You will notice in those two points, I do not quote any numbers. Whether it is 200 DPS or 2000+ DPS is not actually important, the exact numbers are often manipulated anyway, especially when people start quoting figures attained in raids (which are totally irrelevant to this thread anyway, see above). What is important in assessing whether or not the Templar class has enough DPS is encompassed entirely within (1) and (2) above.</font></div><p><font color="#cc6600"><font color="#ff9900"></font></font></p><div></div>Now this section to me is asking - in a longwinded rambling-on kinda way - "do we have enough dps?" "we dont compare with furies", I guess implying our DPS needs to be upgraded.And again further down: <div><font color="#cc6600">I am looking at the EOF AP skills, and I am worried. The Templar AP skills do indeed include some DPS options, and that is a good good thing, for casual playstyle Templars.</font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600"> </font></div> <div><font color="#cc6600">But I am also looking at the Fury ones, and I see the DPS hike that Annaelisa will be getting is truely massive, and I am concerned. I do not want history to repeat, and I do not want casual playstyle Templars to once again feel like charity cases in the future in small groups and full groups vs moderate content. Templar DPS must continue to be not far behind Fury DPS, not be allowed to drop to the tiny fraction it once was, or history will repeat for players in my playstyle.<font color="#ffffff">Now again, this is comparing Templar DPS with Fury DPS focusing on group play.  Id just like to point out that the physical mitigation debuff on a templar not only increases the damage YOU as a templar do, but also the damage the tank does, the necros pet does, the assassin/monk whatever does... quite possibly overall adding to more damage than a furies nukes can do.  Not to mention divine recovery, str bonusses etc.. all adding to damage, in an indirect way.  Oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] im starting to ramble, so I'll finish up with some more bullet points.* Im not "attacking" you - I simply want the time in my life  I wasted reading this post back - Please!* Why are you referring to things prior to KOS? That was months ago, get over it! EOF is out in a week!* I was actually out dpsing a fury going hard on the DPS himself.. not a fury standing idle just healing a bit.* If you have the DPS skill set posted by Kendricke, whats the issue here? you want more than 600DPS, with plate armour, AND heavy healing? I think what you are after is commonly referred to as /godmode in FPS games.* Im not attacking you **personally**, as you said, I dont even know you.  Just - for the 3rd time - Im not sure what the point of this thread is.* Putting in CONTEXT what I said about beating a necro and assassin on DPS in a fun - 3 group raid - in labs.. actually Im not even gonna explain it.. ofcourse an assassin or necro going full out has more dps.. HOWEVER NOT IF YOU HAD YOUR WAY!!* As for your "newcommer" comment.. hehe...thanks for cutting me some slack!! </font></font></div>

[Rast]

He's comparing what he percieves with the changes in EoF when he is comparing Furys and Templars in DPS.

[Goozman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.<BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Don't worry about Goozman. His posts and the truth seldom coincide. He wants a god-class, basically, and anything less means Furies are grossly underpowered to him.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Haha, you are so full of it that it's coming out of your mouth now.<BR>Have you even read your own posts over the past year and a half, because you are mistaking me for you. You were always the one who practically admitted that you didn't know what you were talking about before you started spouting out your propaganda. Remember saying things like "I don't raid and rarely ever group... but"? And people constantly argued against you using facts and numbers (truth), but you stood strong with your few "Templars are so weak" buddies.</P> <P>I repeatedly posted numbers. The numbers on our very spells. I showed time and again that things weren't as you claimed, but you kept on. You've always been the one wanting your Templar to be the "god-class" and new people are always seeing it, see two posts above. If you had any reading comprehension skills when looking over my posts, you'd know that I have no intention of wanting Furies to be amazingly overpowered... and I've given countless amounts of evidence of their current underpowerage since February.</P> <P>Furies should be getting a much more drastic increase in dps with the eof aa's than shamans or clerics, but if it's so high that my Fury is competing with my Wizard in dps, you won't find me whining about a nerf like some people here.</P><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 PM</span>

[Echgar]

I am going to go ahead and close this thread.  This is certainly not the first thread about Templar DPS and the baiting of raiders and others I am seeing here already is a flamefest in the making.<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>Forum Rules of Conduct</a><div></div>