The Templar Tree of Achievement Point (AP) Skills for EOF (Edition 2 - After Revamp on Beta Server)

[Caethre]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4><STRONG><U>The Templar Tree of Achievement Point (AP) Skills for EOF</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV><EM>This is the second edition of this post, after the major AP skill revamp on Beta. I will ask for the first edition post to now be locked, so that comments will not continue to be made on old data.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently on Live, you can earn up to 50 achievement points (APs) to spend in the class (Cleric) achievements tree. In EOF, you will also be able to earn up to 50 more APs, to spend in the subclass (Templar) achievements tree, meaning you can earn up to a total of 100 APs.</DIV> <DIV><BR>EOF Achievements for Templars are split into four sections, the four types skills available - blessings, holy smites, compliances and cures. All the basic abilities are enhancements to existing Templar spells. Some of the final abilities are brand new.<BR> <BR>A few skills can be purchased from the start. However, for most skills there are pre-requisite skills that must be purchased before they become available for purchase. In some cases, the pre-requisite is a skill of another type.<BR> <BR>Keep in mind, this is still BETA information, so might CHANGE again (and again after that!), and certainly bugs will get addressed, so I'd advise you continue to treat it is a fluid list.<BR></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Blessings</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(B1) Enhance: Mark of the Celestial (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell by 2% per rank.<BR>Notes: The base spell has a 20% trigger chance, so with this skill at rank5, it is 30%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(B2) Enhance: Amending Fate (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B1) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Increases the amount healed when this triggers.<BR>Notes: The base Master I Supplicating Fate spell heals for 1159. With increasing ranks of this skill, this rises as follows: 1264, 1369, 1473, 1578, 1683</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>(B3) Enhance: Involuntary Restoration (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B2) at Rank3 or (H2) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell by 2% per rank.<BR>Notes: The base spell has a 20% trigger chance, so with this skill at rank5, it is 30%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(B4) Enhance: Unyielding Benediction (2 ranks, costs 3 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B2) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell.<BR>Notes: Hard to tell how much by. The base spell at Adept III says "1.7 times per minute". The enhanced spell says "1.8 times per minute" at both rank 1 and rank 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(B5) Enhance: Glory of Battle (3 ranks, costs 2 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B3) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell by 1% per rank.<BR>Notes: The base spell has a 5% trigger chance, so with this skill at rank3, it is 8%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(B6) Blessings (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 15 APs between Blessings skills (B1)-(B6).<BR>Description: A group enhancement that increases all triggered percent chances found on equipped items.<BR>Notes: It gives 5% per rank, so at rank5 will increase the trigger percentage by 25% (relative to its base value).<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Holy Smites</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H1) Enhance: Judging Smite (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Reduces the casting time, recast time and power cost of the spell with each rank.<BR>Notes:<BR>Power   76 => 68, 61, 57, 57, 57<BR>Cast   2.0 => 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5<BR>Recast 2.5 => 2.4, 2.3, 2.2, 2.1, 2.0</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H2) Enhance: Holy Strike (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (H1) at Rank3 or (B1) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Reduces the casting time, recast time and power cost of the spell with each rank.<BR>Notes:<BR>Power  110 => 99, 88, 83, 83, 83<BR>Cast   2.0 => 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5<BR>Recast 8.0 => 7.5, 7.0, 6.5, 6.0, 5.5<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H3) Enhance: Warring Axiom (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (H2) at Rank3 or (C2) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Reduces the casting time, recast time and power cost of the spell with each rank.<BR>Notes:<BR>Power  149 => 134, 119, 112, 112, 112<BR>Cast   2.0 => 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5<BR>Recast  15 => 14, 13, 12, 11, 10<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H4) Enhance: Blaze of Faith (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (H3) at Rank3 or (C4) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Reduces the casting time, recast time and power cost of the spell with each rank.<BR>Notes:<BR>Power  138 => 124, 111, 104, 104, 104<BR>Cast   3.0 => 2.8, 2.6, 2.4, 2.2, 2.0<BR>Recast  10 => 9.5, 9.0, 8.5, 8.0, 7.5<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H5) Enhance: Unswerving Hammer (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (H4) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Increases the duration of the spell by 3.0s per rank.<BR>Notes: The base duration is 45s. At rank5 of this skill, it is 60s.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H6) Smite Wrath (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 15 APs between Holy Smites skills (H1)-(H5).<BR>Description: As long as you have not recently been casting a beneficial spell, your holy smite spells have their damage increased.<BR>Notes:</DIV> <DIV>For me, the damage increases were:-</DIV> <DIV>                                         0 ranks                       5 ranks<BR>Judging Smite   Master I : (484-591)                -> (604-739)<BR>Holy Strike         Master I : (785-960)               -> (981-1200)<BR>Warring Axiom  Master I : (457-559/190-233) -> (571-698/238-291)<BR>Blaze of Faith    Master I : (625)                      -> (781)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Compliances</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C1) Enhance: Spurn (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Increases the mitigation reduction and reduces the chance of the spell being resisted<BR>Notes: The mitigation reduction and resistability of this spell at the various ranks is as follows:<BR>Mitigation Debuff 1056     => 1130, 1204, 1278, 1352, 1426<BR>Resistability 21% harder => 23, 26, 28, 30, 33<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C2) Enhance: Sign of Fraility (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (C1) at Rank3 or (H1) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Decreases the recast time and reduces the chance of the spell being resisted<BR>Notes: The recast time and resistability of this spell at the various ranks is as follows:<BR>Recast Time 30s            => 28, 26, 24, 22, 20<BR>Resistability 21% harder => 23, 26, 28, 30, 33<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C3) Enhance: Symbol of Corruption (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (C1) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Reduces casting time, duration and power cost of the spell.<BR>Notes:<BR>Casting Time 2.0s => 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5<BR>Duration         24s  => 22, 20, 18, 16, 14<BR>Power Cost    67   => 60, 53, 50, 50, 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C4) Enhance: Complacency (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (C3) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Decreases the recast time of the spell by 25s per rank.<BR>Notes: The base spell recast time is 300s. With this at rank5, it is 175s.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C5) Enhance: Holy Aura (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (C2) at Rank3 or (C3) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Adds an additional effect to Soothe to reduce the enemies hate on its currently targetted opponent.<BR>Notes: no information available on how much hate is actually removed per rank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C6) Enhance: Forced Humility (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: Requires (C4) at Rank3 or (C5) at Rank3 to open.<BR>Description: Increases the duration of the Stun and reduces the chance of the spell being resisted<BR>Notes:<BR>Duration        7.0s           => 7.3, 7.6, 7.9, 8.2, 8.5<BR>Resistability 21% harder => 23, 26, 28, 30, 33<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C7) Overconfidence (1 rank, costs 5 APs)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 15 APs between Compliances skills (C1)-(C6).<BR>Description: New Ability. This reduces the chance of the target encounter calling for help.</DIV> <DIV>Attacks on non-fighters reduces their hate toward their target. Cast time 1s, Duration 30s, Recast 180s, Range 25m, Effect Radius 50m. Triggers 3 times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4><STRONG><U>Cures</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U1) Enhance: Cure Noxious (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Adds a reactive heal component if noxious damage is received.<BR>Notes: The Noxious Reactive effect is intended to have a duration of 60s. If in this time, the target takes poison damage, they should be healed. This can trigger twice. The heal amount is: 71, 142, 214, 254, 290</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U2) Enhance: Cure Trauma (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Adds a reactive heal component if trauma damage is received.<BR>Notes: The Trauma Reactive effect is intended to have a duration of 60s. If in this time, the target takes trauma damage, they should be healed. This can trigger ONCE. The heal amount is:71, 142, 214, 254, 290</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U3) Enhance: Cure Elemental (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Adds a reactive heal component if elemental damage is received.<BR>Notes: The Elemental Reactive effect is intended to have a duration of 60s. If in this time, the target takes elemental damage, they should be healed. This can trigger twice. The heal amount is:71, 142, 214, 254, 290</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U4) Enhance: Cure Arcane (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: None<BR>Description: Adds a reactive heal component if arcane damage is received.<BR>Notes: The Arcane Reactive effect is intended to have a duration of 60s. If in this time, the target takes arcane damage, they should be healed. This can trigger twice. The heal amount is:71, 142, 214, 254, 290</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U5) Enhance: Devoted Resolve (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 9 APs between Cures skills.<BR>Description: Adds a reactive heal component if damage is received.<BR>Notes: The Resolve Reactive effect is intended to have a duration of 60s. If in this time, the target takes damage, they should be healed. This can trigger ONCE. The heal amount is:71, 142, 214, 254, 290</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U6) Enhance: Sanctuary (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 9 APs between Cures skills.<BR>Description: Increases the duration of the spell by 2s per rank.<BR>Notes: The base Adept III spell has a duration of 26.3s. With this at rank5, it has a</DIV> <DIV>duration of 36.3s.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(U7) Mana Cure (1 rank, costs 5 APs)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 15 APs between Cures skills.<BR>Description: Whenever the target ally casts a hostile spell, they have a 20% chance to trigger a group cure on their group matching the resist type of the spell they cast.<BR>Notes: This is a permanent buff on a single group member.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4><STRONG><U>Notes :-</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- I have restarted this thread, and will ask the mods to lock my earlier one, as any new comments should be made on the latest build we have. If there are any errors here (and I am sure I will have made a few, since this was done at speed), let me know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The names of all these skills are as presented to Felishanna, my Level 70 Templar, and so contain spell names that a Level 70 Templar would be using. However, all these skills apply in principle to all spells in their respective spell-lines (where indeed there are other spells in the spell line concerned, of course).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The exact values given are those for Felishanna herself at this time, which is dependent on what quality she happened to have at the time of writing for each spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- I have sent in a list of /bug reports as part of this analysis. A list of the /bug reports that I have made is in the next post, together with a list of the changes I have noted from the previous issue of this detailed list of AA abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Finally, let me stress again, this is STILL Beta, and I am certain things will still be getting tweaked (up and down).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Whitemane]

<P>So well after playing around with them a bit ( cures line still broken though last I tried it) I think the AA's aren't actually that bad.</P> <P>Some are of pretty limited use to me but all told not too bad. I had hoped to see more pure healing type AA's but in testing with the AA's above once you start throwing in the +healing augments then things start to get fun =D. With the Blessing and +140 healing augments my M1 single target reactive was healing for 804 (as my claymore proc's like mad it always does but with Blessings even moreso) and Mark of ... is healing for 108 and going off all the time. Added all together the AA's and augments boost our healing quite alot. </P> <P>I want to test out a druid and shammy later on for a better feel as to were we all sit and well Im bored =D.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted</P>

[-Priorit]

<div></div>from a PVP templars perspective the new aa's look rather dissapointing, unfortuanately.Wasnt really lookin for +nuke dmg, but more effective burst heals. In other words blessing line I find rather disappointing. Mit debuff and the cure lines (once they start working) will turn out to be nice.But as far as PvE related stuff goes, the tree is not half bad.I figure if I play my templar again I would go:B1:3pts. B2: 3pts. B3:3pts B4: 6pts B6:5ptsC1: 5pntsU2: 5pts U4: 5pts U5: 5pts U7: 5ptsTotals:Blessing Line 20pts<strong></strong>Compliances Line 5 ptsCure Line 20ptsThe extra 5 pts at my discretion to play with, the ones I chose above are mandatory for me =PWhat lines yall thinkin about?<div></div><p>Message Edited by -Priority- on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:32 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.<BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Whitemane wrote:<BR> <P>I want to test out a druid and shammy later on for a better feel as to were we all sit and well Im bored =D.</P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I'm refraining from commenting too much here at the moment on these skills, as I know they are still in beta, and therefore still subject to further potential major changes, so I give any direct feedback I have via the beta feedback route. I will say, though, that overall whilst the Templar AP skills here are solid and workmanlike, they are quite uninspiring (to me anyway), and certainly feel neither powerful or important, at least not to the average player.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>However, I will say, that I have also posted an equivalent post for Fury AP skills on the Fury forum, if you did want to compare with those. By contrast, the fury AP skills are seriously good. Annaelisa will be very happy indeed! For the other priest classes, I'd have to defer to those who know those classes, of course.<BR></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 AM</span>

[-Priorit]

Well here is my 2 cents on how i feel about these new AA's. Just wondering if anyone feels the same<div><div><div> </div> <div><strong><u><font color="#ffff00" size="4">Blessings</font></u></strong></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B1) Enhance: Mark of the Celestial (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div>I see increasing trigger chance almost useless. The trigger is a HoT. By the time it ends, it probably would have re-triggered.<div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B2) Enhance: Amending Fate (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> Never liked this spell much anyhow; this is an effective spell for a group of 6, but otherwise is useless.</div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B3) Enhance: Involuntary Restoration (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font> </div> <div>Approved</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B4) Enhance: Unyielding Benediction (2 ranks, costs 3 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B5) Enhance: Glory of Battle (3 ranks, costs 2 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved, though I would rather pass out more holy redoubts</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B6) Blessings (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div>Approved<div> </div> <div><strong><u><font color="#ffff00" size="4">Holy Smites</font></u></strong></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(H1) Enhance: Judging Smite (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font> </div> <div>Need +damage</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(H2) Enhance: Holy Strike (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Need +damage, but shorten recast is an awfully nice change</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(H3) Enhance: Warring Axiom (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Need +damage</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(H4) Enhance: Blaze of Faith (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Need +damage</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(H5) Enhance: Unswerving Hammer (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(H6) Smite Wrath (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> Would be interested to know the duration of staying away from beneficial spells for this to be effective<div> </div> <div><strong><u><font color="#ffff00" size="4">Compliances</font></u></strong></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C1) Enhance: Spurn (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C2) Enhance: Sign of Fraility (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C3) Enhance: Symbol of Corruption (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Why? Unless it was patched underneath my nose to scale to players level</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C4) Enhance: Complacency (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved, sorta</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C5) Enhance: Holy Aura (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>LOL soothe</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C6) Enhance: Forced Humility (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div>Approved</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(C7) Overconfidence (1 rank, costs 5 APs)</font></div> Another 1group only beneficial spell, but disappointing at that. Would be better if it was a group detaunt or somethin of that sort<div> </div> <div><font color="#ffff00" size="4"><strong><u>Cures</u></strong></font></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(U1) Enhance: Cure Noxious (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(U2) Enhance: Cure Trauma (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div><div><font color="#ff9900">(U3) Enhance: Cure Elemental (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(U4) Enhance: Cure Arcane (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font>Found all of these interesting. Might be fun toys. But would trauma include physical trauma attacks? Or what about any of these types, but as a debuff (not actually damage)</div><div><font color="#ff9900">(U5) Enhance: Devoted Resolve (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font>Reactive across all targets?</div><div><font color="#ff9900">(U6) Enhance: Sanctuary (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> Approved</div><div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(U7) Mana Cure (1 rank, costs 5 APs)</font></div>Very interesting indeed<div> </div></div></div><div></div>

[Asdran]

<div></div>GroupAfterWipe: "Why didn't you cure us?"Templar: "Sorry guys, I thought the Mana Cure was going to proc"GroupLeaderLookingForPriest: "So what do you think of Smite Wrath"TemplarLFG: "Its a cool nuke spell"... TemplarLFG: "Hello?"TemplarLFG: "Hello?"<div></div>

[Spondulix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Priority- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(B2) Enhance: Amending Fate (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> Never liked this spell much anyhow; this is an effective spell for a group of 6, but otherwise is useless.<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>(U1) Enhance: Cure Noxious (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>(U2) Enhance: Cure Trauma (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>(U3) Enhance: Cure Elemental (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>(U4) Enhance: Cure Arcane (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT>Found all of these interesting. Might be fun toys. But would trauma include physical trauma attacks? Or what about any of these types, but as a debuff (not actually damage)<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I disagree with Amending Fate being a useless spell in a raid environment. I welcome any boost to the heal amount, since I use it quite often, and  in fights with adds (matron, mutagenic outcast, many instanced epic encounters) it is quite a gem. Moreso if the mobs you're fighting have harsh AE's. </P> <P> </P> <P>Yes, the trauma cure (U2) does cure physical trauma impairments (as it is a trauma cure) and it adds the bonus heal component to the cure. </P> <P> </P> <P>My question, out of all these options is related to Overconfidence (C7). I keep trying to figure out exactly how the spell works, and which situation to best use it in. The way it's worded now, I see myself using it on a dps class (or another class, when you're dealing with memwiping mobs) that peels aggro off the MT and starts getting whacked. Every time it gets hit, if I cast this on the mob, it reduces the threat position of whatever it's attacking by 1 (up to 3 times). Do I have that right, or am I missing something in the interpretation?</P> <P>Either way, I don't see myself taking this line, as I wouldn't waste the 15 points going into the Compliances line just to get the final ability.<BR></P>

[-Priorit]

<div><blockquote><hr>Spondulix wrote:<div></div><p>I disagree with Amending Fate being a useless spell in a raid environment. I welcome any boost to the heal amount, since I use it quite often, and  in fights with adds (matron, mutagenic outcast, many instanced epic encounters) it is quite a gem. Moreso if the mobs you're fighting have harsh AE's. </p> <p> <font color="#ff3300">Well, for its power cost it is well worth it, but this spell is useful in basically clutch fights where that extra heal will make the difference. I wish it was a raid-wide heal, and maybe increase power cost a tad instead. Though, my raid experience as a templar was rather limited on Vox. Contested were near impossible to compete with.</font></p><hr></blockquote>From reading the other healers new AA's (Fury in particular) I am hoping for some slight modifications under the blessing tree.</div>

[EQAditu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Priority- wrote:<div><div><div><font color="#ff9900">(H6) Smite Wrath (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div>Would be interested to know the duration of staying away from beneficial spells for this to be effective<div> </div><div><font color="#ff9900">(C3) Enhance: Symbol of Corruption (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div><div>Why? Unless it was patched underneath my nose to scale to players level</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff9900">(C5) Enhance: Holy Aura (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div><div>LOL soothe</div><div><font color="#ff9900">(C7) Overconfidence (1 rank, costs 5 APs)</font></div>Another 1group only beneficial spell, but disappointing at that. Would be better if it was a group detaunt or somethin of that sort</div></div><hr></blockquote>Re: Smite Wrath...  seven seconds is how long you have to wait before Smite Wrath reactivates.Re: Symbol of Corruption...  still looks like the old crappy L35 spell it always was. <span>:smileytongue:  BUT, considering there's an AA now, it could be upgraded.Re: Sooth... Well, if it were to do something like deaggro the mob's target by like 1k every 12s would you still think its useless?  Essentially you're helping the tank by deaggroing bad people.Re: Overconfidence... more or less it *is* a group detaunt.  If a mob attacks a non-fighter, the mob switches to the next on the hate list up to 3 times.  More of a raid spell than group spell besides.  How many group mobs memwipe?  Unfortunately the recast on this is 3mins.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQAditu wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Priority- wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(H6) Smite Wrath (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV>Would be interested to know the duration of staying away from beneficial spells for this to be effective <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C3) Enhance: Symbol of Corruption (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Why? Unless it was patched underneath my nose to scale to players level</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C5) Enhance: Holy Aura (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>LOL soothe</DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>(C7) Overconfidence (1 rank, costs 5 APs)<BR></FONT></DIV>Another 1group only beneficial spell, but disappointing at that. Would be better if it was a group detaunt or somethin of that sort</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Re: Smite Wrath...  seven seconds is how long you have to wait before Smite Wrath reactivates.<BR>Re: Symbol of Corruption...  still looks like the old crappy L35 spell it always was. <SPAN>:smileytongue:  BUT, considering there's an AA now, it could be upgraded.<BR>Re: Sooth... Well, if it were to do something like deaggro the mob's target by like 1k every 12s would you still think its useless?  Essentially you're helping the tank by deaggroing bad people.<BR>Re: Overconfidence... more or less it *is* a group detaunt.  If a mob attacks a non-fighter, the mob switches to the next on the hate list up to 3 times.  More of a raid spell than group spell besides.  How many group mobs memwipe?  Unfortunately the recast on this is 3mins.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The issue I have with Overconfidence is that it not only has only 3 triggers...but it only lasts for 30 seconds besides.  I believe that for the cost involved in getting to overconfidence (and the amount of points a Templar has to spend in Compliances), the effect is very limited.  It's powerful, sure...but I hardly think we'll hear of anyone seriously spending points on this.</P> <P>By way of contrast, Blessings could have been nice for a raiding/grouping Templar, but only at the highest point costs.  If a proc has a 10% chance of triggering, even at maximum expenditure, this will only increase the proc rate by 2.5%...and only on items.  It's not going to increase trigger chances on spells.  I suppose it's better than nothing, right?</P> <P>Smite Wrath will be great for soloing Templars...but it's not as if Soloing Templars were that far behind the curve to begin with.  With my Test Templar already hitting 700 DPS, this will simply increase his numbers even more.  However, I simply don't see this improving his group or raid desirability, and in fact, may hurt his groups if he gets caught up in the moment.</P> <P>Overall, the revamp was better since it's taken the myriad of "reduce cast time" or "reduce cast cost" or "improve reuse" abilities and just combined them all into the "enhance: X" achievements.  That doesn't make my overall opinion of the Templar achievements any better.  It just means that it's better...not necessarily good.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:20 AM</span>

[Rast]

<P>Where is my improvements to what I am?  I'm a healer, yet all the 'boosts' were in non healing lines.</P> <P>How about some AAs that make me more effective in my *gasp* role?</P>

[EQAditu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The issue I have with Overconfidence is that it not only has only 3 triggers...but it only lasts for 30 seconds besides.  I believe that for the cost involved in getting to overconfidence (and the amount of points a Templar has to spend in Compliances), the effect is very limited.  It's powerful, sure...but I hardly think we'll hear of anyone seriously spending points on this.</p><span class="time_text"></span><hr></blockquote>How many people do you need the mob to skip over?  If you're in a group, that's half the group the mob can ignore.  And how long <i>do</i> you need the buff?  Do you think it will take more than 30 seconds for the mob to attack three times and use up the spell completely?  Not to mention its a green-AE spell so multiple mobs can use it at once.  I highly doubt you will ever see this spell expire unused unless you cast it when you don't actually need it.I'm sure tanks would kill to get this type of spell... another rescue type thing.  (Rescue being 3 threat positions and near 4k threat @ Master I).  I'm sure they wouldn't mind the modified Soothe either(assuming when it actually gets its effects implemented its not only -250 threat or something).While solo-healing in Mistmoore last week, my problem was not healing the group... it was me being constantly attacked by mobs.  My deaggro was not up nearly enough to protect me.  Then the mages were getting used to their new aggro as well.  They still don't stand up great verses yellow heroics that want them dead, and neither did I with so many interrupts.  Either I'd die, or the tank would due to my unability to cast.  The new recast on Complacency, Soothe deaggro, and Overconfidence would have given me a needed edge.That's just grouping.  In raids clerics don't really aggro much, but geez the wizards do.  Us trying to heal cloth wearers verses epics, I doubt is easier in EoF.  Easy solution is to redirect the mob's hate.  The tanks can't <i>always </i>do it.I think dismissing the final Compliance because of the prereqs is unfair because in my opinion, most of the prereqs of all our trees are a waste of points.  If we're lucky, they'll make the Symbol of Corruption AA better and actually worth using over L35, and making Spurn debuff at Debilitate levels isn't so bad either.PS, I'll be someone who seriously spends points towards this.  I'm not afraid to pick unpopular AAs after all.  I fight people discounting Shield Ally whereever I can.  (BTW, there are several +block augments that were able to raise my block% from 8.5 to 10.1, so Shield Ally gets near 20% better <span>:smileyhappy: )</span><div></div>

[Archill]

I dunno, I rarely if ever get hit when doing heroic content as the attention is either on the squishies or the tank. If it's on the squishies i just stun the mob til the tank can get more of his taunts off.  Overconfidence may be useful, but to me.. meh.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQAditu wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>The issue I have with Overconfidence is that it not only has only 3 triggers...but it only lasts for 30 seconds besides.  I believe that for the cost involved in getting to overconfidence (and the amount of points a Templar has to spend in Compliances), the effect is very limited.  It's powerful, sure...but I hardly think we'll hear of anyone seriously spending points on this.</P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>How many people do you need the mob to skip over?  If you're in a group, that's half the group the mob can ignore.  And how long <I>do</I> you need the buff?  Do you think it will take more than 30 seconds for the mob to attack three times and use up the spell completely?  Not to mention its a green-AE spell so multiple mobs can use it at once.  I highly doubt you will ever see this spell expire unused unless you cast it when you don't actually need it.<BR><BR>I'm sure tanks would kill to get this type of spell... another rescue type thing.  (Rescue being 3 threat positions and near 4k threat @ Master I).  I'm sure they wouldn't mind the modified Soothe either(assuming when it actually gets its effects implemented its not only -250 threat or something). <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fair enough.  I'll give it a go from that perspective, and see what I can get done on Beta this week.  Especially outside of MT groups, this could give Templars more of a reason to be on raids if we adopt that tact.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>Where is my improvements to what I am?  I'm a healer, yet all the 'boosts' were in non healing lines.</P> <P>How about some AAs that make me more effective in my *gasp* role?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep. Very disapointed yet again.</P> <P>Why do they keep giving us dps AA's? We are a freekin healer...not a want to be monk/wizard.</P> <P>I am not familiar with druid tress but it looks like they got some AA's that boost their healing amounts....why didn't templars.</P> <P>Yeah, templars got some heal amounts added to our cures but its just another "lotto" heal at our disposal. Sometimes I wonder if SOE thinks templars are the casino of a healer.....do you feel lucky? :smileysad:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Whitemane]

<P>I sorta of agree but keep in mind with the Blessing AA's our lotto heals become well .. alot less lotto like and more dependable and with the augments we heal for quite a bit more. They are still .. Meh but they do add to our healing capacity though not really in a direct +% to all heals kind of way. I think SoE is somewhat painted themselves into a corner with the "All healers heal equally well.." mentality it limits what they give, and since we dont have a tonne of utility outside of heals and HP/MIT buffs it doesnt leave us with much. I'm a raid Templar and I dont see myself doing anything but going up the Blessings line and the Cures ( with a little in the Spurn AA for giggles). </P> <P>The problem here is that the way things are currently Balanced between healers pretty much and direct healing AA's would overpower the recieving healer type. IMHO anyways. Still havent had a chance to test any other healer type AA's other than a Inquisitors ( and I'd say they are even worse off from a healing AA perspective than us )</P> <P> </P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Priority- wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spondulix wrote:<BR> <P>I disagree with Amending Fate being a useless spell in a raid environment. I welcome any boost to the heal amount, since I use it quite often, and  in fights with adds (matron, mutagenic outcast, many instanced epic encounters) it is quite a gem. Moreso if the mobs you're fighting have harsh AE's. </P> <P> <FONT color=#ff3300>Well, for its power cost it is well worth it, but this spell is useful in basically clutch fights where that extra heal will make the difference. I wish it was a raid-wide heal, and maybe increase power cost a tad instead. Though, my raid experience as a templar was rather limited on Vox. Contested were near impossible to compete with.<BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>From reading the other healers new AA's (Fury in particular) I am hoping for some slight modifications under the blessing tree.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Archill]

<div></div><div>First I want to thank all who took the time to inform those us of not in the beta about the proposed changes/additions. I really enjoy reading it.<blockquote><div><div><div><strong><u><font color="#ffff00" size="4">Blessings</font></u></strong></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B1) Enhance: Mark of the Celestial (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> <b><font color="#006600">For me, this already procs more than enough. Wish it was a boost to the healing.</font></b></div> <div>Pre-Requisites: NoneDescription: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell by 2% per rank.Notes: The base spell has a 20% trigger chance, so with this skill at rank5, it is 30%.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B2) Enhance: Amending Fate (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> <font color="#006600"><b>Would rather this be an end ability to make it encounter wide as with heroic content mobs die to fast for me to fate them all, and on raids most encounters are single, which just makes it fluff :/</b></font></div> <div>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B1) at Rank3 to open.Description: Increases the amount healed when this triggers.Notes: The base Master I Supplicating Fate spell heals for 1159. With increasing ranks of this skill, this rises as follows: 1264, 1369, 1473, 1578, 1683</div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B3) Enhance: Involuntary Restoration (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div><b> </b><font color="#006600"><b>Yay from me, just what this spell needed.</b></font></div> <div>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B2) at Rank3 or (H2) at Rank3 to open.Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell by 2% per rank.Notes: The base spell has a 20% trigger chance, so with this skill at rank5, it is 30%.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B4) Enhance: Unyielding Benediction (2 ranks, costs 3 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> <font color="#006600"><b>Will have to wait and see..</b></font></div> <div>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B2) at Rank3 to open.Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell.Notes: Hard to tell how much by. The base spell at Adept III says "1.7 times per minute". The enhanced spell says "1.8 times per minute" at both rank 1 and rank 2.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B5) Enhance: Glory of Battle (3 ranks, costs 2 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> <font color="#006600"><b>Don't really use it so I can't appreciate the improvement.</b></font></div> <div>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B3) at Rank3 to open.Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell by 1% per rank.Notes: The base spell has a 5% trigger chance, so with this skill at rank3, it is 8%.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ff9900">(B6) Blessings (5 ranks, costs 1 AP per rank)</font></div> <div> <font color="#006600"><b>A definate must in my opinion.</b></font></div> <div>Pre-Requisites: To have spent a total of 15 APs between Blessings skills (B1)-(B6).Description: A group enhancement that increases all triggered percent chances found on equipped items.Notes: It gives 5% per rank, so at rank5 will increase the trigger percentage by 25% (relative to its base value).</div> <div> </div>I just wish they allowed us to boost our primary buff spells. Redoubt, Symbol, Gall. Guess not.</div></div></blockquote></div>

[Kizee]

<P>I wish they would give us a line that increases our Mit on our buffs or adds back the Mit component to the reactives like it was before LU13. </P> <P>They are raising the cap so that would make sence.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Whilst I agree with most in saying that our AP skills look drab and un-inspiring, I have to bite on this one, it having been posted by you here so many times, especially since you should already know the answer to the question:</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Kizee wrote: <P>Why do they keep giving us dps AA's? We are a freekin healer...not a want to be monk/wizard.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Kizee, this idea that DPS is only for monks and wizards and the like is that old worn-out falacy. Every class needs DPS, and especially in small groups, and even more especially when soloing. Small groups, soloing and casual players do matter, you know. These AP options are there for </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>templars like me! Indeed, I want as many DPS-boosting AP skills as I can get. </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>It may not be what you want, but it is still only a choice, you do have other choices.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Now, after all of that, you still have a point in general. The AP skills look drab and uninspiring and undesirable. Since you don't want the DPS ones (that I do), then they will look even worse to you, of course.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Whilst I too would have loved to see some straight healing-based AP skills, I know that SOE are just not keen on boosting real healing (for any class), which is why none of the priest classes have got any serious healing AP skills (just lottos, specialities, emergencies, etc).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Felishanna.</FONT></P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Whilst I agree with most in saying that our AP skills look drab and un-inspiring, I have to bite on this one, it having been posted by you here so many times, especially since you should already know the answer to the question:</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Kizee wrote: <P>Why do they keep giving us dps AA's? We are a freekin healer...not a want to be monk/wizard.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Kizee, this idea that DPS is only for monks and wizards and the like is that old worn-out falacy. Every class needs DPS, and especially in small groups, and even more especially when soloing. Small groups, soloing and casual players do matter, you know. These AP options are there for </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>templars like me! Indeed, I want as many DPS-boosting AP skills as I can get. </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>It may not be what you want, but it is still only a choice, you do have other choices.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Now, after all of that, you still have a point in general. The AP skills look drab and uninspiring and undesirable. Since you don't want the DPS ones (that I do), then they will look even worse to you, of course.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Whilst I too would have loved to see some straight healing-based AP skills, I know that SOE are just not keen on boosting real healing (for any class), which is why none of the priest classes have got any serious healing AP skills (just lottos, specialities, emergencies, etc).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Felishanna.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im fine with some dps abiltities but seems like the majortity of templars are dps orientated. For once I would like to see some nice raid orientated abiltities.</P> <P>Another thing I noticed.... they removed our magic resist/ward buff upgrate (that was in previous post) to give us a AA to make a level 35 spell upgrade for vampires better that I haven't used since bloodlines. [Removed for Content] is up with that. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :smileymad:  Granted that mistmoore is going in game but it seems kinda rediclous to have a whole AA line dedicated to a level 35 spell that has a use in 2 places. :p</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yep. Very disapointed yet again.</P> <P>Why do they keep giving us dps AA's? We are a freekin healer...not a want to be monk/wizard.</P> <P>I am not familiar with druid tress but it looks like they got some AA's that boost their healing amounts....why didn't templars.</P> <P>Yeah, templars got some heal amounts added to our cures but its just another "lotto" heal at our disposal. Sometimes I wonder if SOE thinks templars are the casino of a healer.....do you feel lucky? :smileysad:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Kizee go ask the Inquisitors how they feel about the upcoming changes.  We're doing pretty well on this end.  Not everybody is a raider remember.  Statistically if the reseach they've done in WoW is right, only 1 in 3 people belong to a raid guild.  Surely you have to see why they are adding DPS...</P>

[Archill]

<div></div>posted off topic.. removing :E<div></div><p>Message Edited by Archill on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[EQAditu]

<div></div><div>Symbol of Corruption isn't the vampire spell, its this one: http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NDM0Mzk4NDg2My spellbook says it does 39-48/4s though.<blockquote><hr>Archill wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><div><div><div><font color="#ff9900">(B4) Enhance: Unyielding Benediction (2 ranks, costs 3 AP per rank)</font></div><div> <font color="#006600"><b>Will have to wait and see..</b></font></div><div>Pre-Requisites: Requires (B2) at Rank3 to open.Description: Increases the trigger percentage of this spell.Notes: Hard to tell how much by. The base spell at Adept III says "1.7 times per minute". The enhanced spell says "1.8 times per minute" at both rank 1 and rank 2.</div></div></div></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>My Master I spell says 1.8 and 2.4ppm.  It doesn't make any more sense though. Did some parsing tests...My standard Master spell blocked 79 of 911 (8.7%).My AA upgraded spell blocked 145/1317 (11%).Its hard to say if the base spell was changed or not.  8.7% seems low for a spell that lists 11%.</div>

[Raistlan]

That's interesting Aditu, as you said, the current Master is 11%, so why is it only blocking that much after you upgrade it with the AA?  That's a fairly large sample size there you have as well.<div></div>

[Momolicio]

Thank you for continuing and retooling the thread!Re: Symbol of Corruption.The use of this is not for the damage. It is for the longer duration WIS debuff lowering the mobs resists. Coupled with WIS dolly and Mark. It brings about 15% more damage to the table. Sadly it is not worth upgrading past App4, unless that too is changed in EoF. I seem to recall App4-Ad3 = 3 more points of damage per tick and same amount of Wis debuffed. (And why the frig are they reducing its duration as you rank it up?!?) Crap no, usefull yes, and cheap mana. Worth an AA slot... NOAs far as Smite Wrath:Using 2 things to determine this. Logs an Experience.When Unyielding procs. You ever wondered why you do the casting animiation out of the blue? That is Unyielding proc'n.For example. Plate Helm of the Ether. Procs a HoT when a "healing" spell is cast (10%, or 12.5% with Rank5 Blessings). Now keep in mind this is whenever someone gets healed, marked, and apparently Stoneskinned.(1161139183)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:43 2006] Tiwi is granted a Divine Shield.(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] a silent sentinel tries to crush Tiwi, but misses.(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] a silent sentinel tries to crush Tiwi, but misses.(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] You cast glowing runes about Tiwi!(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] Your helm glows brightly!(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] YOUR Mending Touch heals Tiwi for 150 hit points.(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] Tiwi is touched by divinity!(1161139184)[Tue Oct 17 19:39:44 2006] Tiwi is surrounded by healing runes!(1161143636)[Tue Oct 17 20:53:56 2006] You cast glowing runes about Tiwi!(1161143636)[Tue Oct 17 20:53:56 2006] Your helm glows brightly!(1161143636)[Tue Oct 17 20:53:56 2006] YOUR Mending Touch heals Tiwi for 150 hit points.(1161143636)[Tue Oct 17 20:53:56 2006] Tiwi is touched by divinity!(1161143636)[Tue Oct 17 20:53:56 2006] Tiwi is surrounded by healing runes!(1161230014)[Wed Oct 18 20:53:34 2006] You cast glowing runes about Tiwi!(1161230014)[Wed Oct 18 20:53:34 2006] Your helm glows brightly!(1161230014)[Wed Oct 18 20:53:34 2006] YOUR Mending Touch heals Tiwi for 150 hit points.(1161230014)[Wed Oct 18 20:53:34 2006] Tiwi is touched by divinity!(1161230014)[Wed Oct 18 20:53:34 2006] Tiwi is surrounded by healing runes!Hmm Cures too?(1161230194)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:34 2006] You stop Tiwi's bleeding!(1161230194)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:34 2006] Quick Strike has been removed from Tiwi.(1161230194)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:34 2006] Tiwi stops bleeding!(1161230194)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:34 2006] Tiwi's divine cure fades.(1161230196)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:36 2006] Your helm glows brightly!(1161230196)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:36 2006] YOUR Mending Touch heals Tiwi for 150 hit points.(1161230196)[Wed Oct 18 20:56:36 2006] Tiwi is touched by divinity!When stoneskin fades?(1161406041)[Fri Oct 20 21:47:21 2006] The runes begin to fade.(1161406041)[Fri Oct 20 21:47:21 2006] Your helm glows brightly!Well this is also assuming alot, I am assuming an item that needs a healing spell to trigger will also be within the mechanics of how the game figures we are casting a healing spell. We have some backlogged 'features' still in our class and the game overall.I dont have beta, I cant give hands on info. I am more then likely wrong on some aspects of what will an wont set the healing flag. It just seems to me it will be tied to anything that can be crit'd via the healing crit line. Which... is everything (I bet even stoneskin will crit as wards do).(PS. Did you know Bounty of the Virtuous when it proc's the mana free heal it is also Agro free?)I <3 Tiwi, gotta love it when you play with your wife!<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Kizee, this idea that DPS is only for monks and wizards and the like is that old worn-out falacy. Every class needs DPS, and especially in small groups, and even more especially when soloing. Small groups, soloing and casual players do matter, you know. These AP options are there for </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>templars like me! Indeed, I want as many DPS-boosting AP skills as I can get. </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>It may not be what you want, but it is still only a choice, you do have other choices.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would guess that Kizee's point here is that there already exist methods for Templars seeking pure DPS to hit 8-900+ DPS already.  That's right...800 to 900 DPS or more just soloing.  Is that not enough for a healer? </P> <P>Go look at the "Templar Achievement Build" thread and ask Olivetti how she's doing after taking my advice.  She's pulling in well over 600 DPS soloing already.  She's outdamaging Assassins and Necromancers on raids.  You think Guardians think that's fair?  You think Troubadours think that's fair?  Do you think it's fair that a class which is the best at passive healing and easily capable of active healing is also able to outdamage several fighter and scout classes who can't heal themselves during a fight at all? </P> <P>People who keep talking about adding DPS aren't paying attention to the Templars who are showing how it's done.  We're not talking theory here, either.  We're saying that if you want to solo, you can...and you can do it more than just "well" or "fine.  You can be a bloody combat monster if you want to be, all the while making it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near impossible to die.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong.  I love damage boosts.  I can't wait till I'm pumping out 1200-1500 damage as a Priest of Marr.  However, I'm curious why all these Templars who claim to want more DPS are constantly taking achievement builds based around healing criticals and spell casting speed.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Goozman]

<DIV>You should be careful, Kendricke... you know the Templar Order will kill you to continue hiding the lie </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Omg the dps code!</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Kendricke wrote: <font color="#ffff00">"She's outdamaging Assassins and Necromancers on raids.  You think Guardians think that's fair?"</font>Oh, for crying out loud, enough of the hyperbole.  That is completely ludicrous.  Troubadour, maybe, especially if mob has high mental resists,guardian, let alone a real DPS classes, yeah, sure -  if they are afk.It is nice to see ONE line there for the eccentrics who roled a templar to dps or solo.Now as I trust the comments on these boards sooooo much, anyone know what respeccing costs are?<div></div>

[Whitemane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR>Kendricke wrote: <FONT color=#ffff00>"She's outdamaging Assassins and Necromancers on raids.  You think Guardians think that's fair?"</FONT><BR><BR>Oh, for crying out loud, enough of the hyperbole.  That is completely ludicrous.  Troubadour, maybe, especially if mob has high mental resists,<BR>guardian, let alone a real DPS classes, yeah, sure -  if they are afk.<BR><BR>It is nice to see ONE line there for the eccentrics who roled a templar to dps or solo.<BR><BR>Now as I trust the comments on these boards sooooo much, anyone know what respeccing costs are?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Have to agree with Antryg here, Kend. If this is true then they are the absolute worst assasin and necro I have ever seen. They need to upgrade thier App I spells and soon ;p. Yes we can do ok DPS but I probably couldnt outdps my guild necro even if he was AFK.. ( he usually parses 1800+ dps ). Guardians usually do in about 6-700 or so assuming they are not tanking.</P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR>Kendricke wrote: <FONT color=#ffff00>"She's outdamaging Assassins and Necromancers on raids.  You think Guardians think that's fair?"</FONT><BR><BR>Oh, for crying out loud, enough of the hyperbole.  That is completely ludicrous.  Troubadour, maybe, especially if mob has high mental resists,<BR>guardian, let alone a real DPS classes, yeah, sure -  if they are afk.<BR><BR>It is nice to see ONE line there for the eccentrics who roled a templar to dps or solo.<BR><BR>Now as I trust the comments on these boards sooooo much, anyone know what respeccing costs are?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Go.  Read.  Her.  Post.  </P> <P>Don't kill the messenger if you don't like what's written on the scroll.  </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ff9900>I do not want to derail this data thread...</FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ff9900>Kizee, this idea that DPS is only for monks and wizards and the like is that old worn-out falacy. Every class needs DPS, and especially in small groups, and even more especially when soloing. Small groups, soloing and casual players do matter, you know. These AP options are there for templars like me! Indeed, I want as many DPS-boosting AP skills as I can get. It may not be what you want, but it is still only a choice, you do have other choices</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kizee was posting frustrations that the Echoes beta trees are very much DPS oriented, with no healing upgrades.  You responded with the above.  I responded to the above to say that DPS options already exist, but there are few healing options for players who picked Templars to...you know, <EM>heal:</EM>  </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote (August 22, 2005):<BR> My vision for my cleric class (in any game) is as a primary healer...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote (Setp 19, 2005):<BR> Many of us believe that Clerics should be healing more significantly better than the other priests, balancing our lesser DPS and utility. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote (April 3, 2006):<BR> Personally, if I were EQII chief designer ... I would use a more EQ1-like design for healers ... where Clerics were truely the best healers and HP/AC buffers...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I believe that was what Kizee was asking for.  I could have been wrong.</P> <P>What I can say is that this is the fourth iteration of Achievements I've seen on Beta.  Word has it we'll see another one soon.  In at least one of the iterations, "Blessings" was supposed to provide a 20% boost to healing (as well as a 20% decrease in casting costs).  It wasn't really working correctly in that way, but even if it had, it may have been seen as just "too" powerful especially combined with maximum healing criticals - or even with Tunare blessings.  </P> <P>Right now on Beta, a Tunare worshipper can earn a first tier 10 minute blessing that boosts healing by 15% flat out.  Marr does have one ability (fourth tier, I think), that allows the worshipper to heal a target for 75% of total health (by sacrificing 50% of his or her own health).  It's a great emergency heal, but not quite on par with a 10 minute boost of 15% to all healing.  Brell priests get no healing bonuses at all.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> </P>

[Rast]

I'll be bluntly honest, I think my templar soloes about as easily as my paladin does.  I rolled a pally to be a tank (which they admittedly suck at) and I rolled a templar to be a healer (again a role SoE doesn't seem to think they should fill)

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Kizee was posting frustrations that the Echoes beta trees are very much DPS oriented, with no healing upgrades. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I do understand that may have been her intent, and I do sympathise with that. However, whilst I also would love to see real +healing AP skills, it would not be to replace the option of +DPS, but rather, to replace some of the other more drab and uninteresting lines of AP skills being offered. Wanting +healing APs as an option is not a reason to be actively against others have an option for +DPS APs, I would think.</FONT></P> <P>You responded with the above.  I responded to the above to say that DPS options already exist, but there are few healing options for players who picked Templars to...you know, <EM>heal:</EM> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote (August 22, 2005):<BR> My vision for my cleric class (in any game) is as a primary healer...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote (Setp 19, 2005):<BR> Many of us believe that Clerics should be healing more significantly better than the other priests, balancing our lesser DPS and utility.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote (April 3, 2006):<BR> Personally, if I were EQII chief designer ... I would use a more EQ1-like design for healers ... where Clerics were truely the best healers and HP/AC buffers...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Every one of these things is still my view today, but the fact is, we both know, those views are not in line with the vision that SOE have for priest classes in EQ2, where all priests are meant to heal (more or less) equally, something that I believe they have (more or less) achieved, especially in my playstyle.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>As an aside, do you really keep an archive of every post I have ever made somewhere? Flattering in a way, but somewhat ... disturbing as well.</FONT></P> <P>What I can say is that this is the fourth iteration of Achievements I've seen on Beta.  Word has it we'll see another one soon.  In at least one of the iterations, "Blessings" was supposed to provide a 20% boost to healing (as well as a 20% decrease in casting costs).  It wasn't really working correctly in that way, but even if it had, it may have been seen as just "too" powerful especially combined with maximum healing criticals - or even with Tunare blessings. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Oh that would have been excellent news, if it happened, and even I would buy such an ability first, before even DPS upgrades (because as a Templar, my first job is still healing). However, I would still take DPS over everything else. I would also agree with you, that a 20% boost to all healing would be too much, especially if other priest classes got nothing, and also that stacking with Tunare abilities would make it far too much. Perhaps 10%, and reducing the Tunare boost to 10% or even 7.5% would work, unless the Tunarean one was left at 15% and say 10% were given to other religions as well (and reduce the reasonable complaints of non-Tunarean priests into the bargain), but that is not fully thought out, just tossing ideas into the air, so don't quote that back at me as definitively my viewpoint.</FONT></P> <P>Right now on Beta, a Tunare worshipper can earn a first tier 10 minute blessing that boosts healing by 15% flat out.  Marr does have one ability (fourth tier, I think), that allows the worshipper to heal a target for 75% of total health (by sacrificing 50% of his or her own health).  It's a great emergency heal, but not quite on par with a 10 minute boost of 15% to all healing.  Brell priests get no healing bonuses at all.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I know about Tunare's abilities, Felishanna has completed the entire quest line and indeed has both the blessing +15% healing for 10mins and the miracle +50% healing for 1min purchased on beta at this moment. They are wonderful, but I do agree other deities need something too, for balance reasons, well either that or (unfortunately) the Tunare one needs reducing. Again, just ideas thrown into the air.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff9900>Thank you for the constructive response.<BR></FONT></DIV>

[Boli32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote: <div><blockquote><hr><p><font color="#ff9900">Every one of these things is still my view today, but the fact is, we both know, those views are not in line with the vision that SOE have for priest classes in EQ2, where all priests are meant to heal (more or less) equally, something that I believe they have (more or less) achieved, especially in my playstyle.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff9900">As an aside, do you really keep an archive of every post I have ever made somewhere? Flattering in a way, but somewhat ... disturbing as well.</font></p> <hr> </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>As far as I can figure priest classes are meant to be balanced upon healing and its buffs/debuffs and DPS that provide the differences between the classes.  Templars get supurb buffs and debuffs and reasonable DPS (even pure healing speced) that give them more solo/small group use.As to outdamageing all of those classes... Any of those who has justed reached 70 stil upgrading many spells and gear will pull only about 600dps in a raid senario... especilaly if you don't have the right classes with rhe right debuffs droppping on the mob (Brigands for instance). I congratulate you on the numbers but as I have found with my fury... you tend to hit a 'wall' of damage you can do and stop.... the other dps classes just keep on going.I'm not saying its a bad thing Templars got a few damage abilities.. far from it once my lowbie templar got yaulp they solo far faster with it.. than without it.First solid information I've read one the god's granted abilities though... very interesting.</div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>boli wrote:<div>As far as I can figure priest classes are meant to be balanced upon healing and its buffs/debuffs and DPS that provide the differences between the classes.  </div><hr></blockquote>For some reason I seriously doubt you would be writing that if furies had the current templar DPS schematics and templars had furies DPS. As it is, furies get into groups because of healing, buffs and DPS while templars get to groups due to healing. Furies have great buffs for melee and caster classes while templars have nice buffs for melee classes. With my monk, I prefer fury buffs over templar ones even when tanking. Also every caster wants fury buffs (especially in the future). In raids, people compete on who gets the excess furiy (-es) but no one wants the templar. For melee classes, templars bring nothing, my monk for example is already capped in weapon skills and health buffs are next to useless in the other groups. Agitate on the other hand will be much better in the future when caps are raised. In groups, furies not only do DPS but add to the general DPS of the group. With healing 'balanced', there is no content that requires templar buffs, you can do everything with any other healer but faster.<div></div>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>boli wrote:<div>As far as I can figure priest classes are meant to be balanced upon healing and its buffs/debuffs and DPS that provide the differences between the classes.  </div><hr></blockquote>For some reason I seriously doubt you would be writing that if furies had the current templar DPS schematics and templars had furies DPS.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually ironically I'm quite often refused into groups: "No thanks we already have a fury we're looking for another healer type or real dps".</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>boli wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>boli wrote:<div>As far as I can figure priest classes are meant to be balanced upon healing and its buffs/debuffs and DPS that provide the differences between the classes.  </div><hr></blockquote>For some reason I seriously doubt you would be writing that if furies had the current templar DPS schematics and templars had furies DPS.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually ironically I'm quite often refused into groups: "No thanks we already have a fury we're looking for another healer type or real dps".</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>"Group looking for non-plate healer"<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote: <DIV>As far as I can figure priest classes are meant to be balanced upon healing and its buffs/debuffs and DPS that provide the differences between the classes. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>For some reason I seriously doubt you would be writing that if furies had the current templar DPS schematics and templars had furies DPS.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually ironically I'm quite often refused into groups: "No thanks we already have a fury we're looking for another healer type or real dps".<BR></DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>"Group looking for non-plate healer"<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Since you've claimed (and recently, in fact) that you can only produce 200-300 DPS while soloing and only half that in groups, I can see why you might feel we're unable to produce much damage.  You've claimed that your Templar is only your secondary that you pull out when no one else wants to play a Templar on your raids...so I can see how you might not be working up to the full potential of the class if it's not exactly your first choice.</P> <P>Now, there do exist other Templars who - for whatever reason - seem to have little problem doing more damage than you claim to be able to produce.  They aren't claiming 20% more, or even 50% more.  No, these Templars are claiming more than <EM>twice</EM> the damage you claim, and sometimes <EM>three</EM> times your numbers. </P> <P>I would say that trying to convince a Templar who is capable of producing two or three times your damage that Templars are somehow vastly inferior damage dealers might be a relatively tough proposition.  Wouldn't you agree?</P> <P>In fact, you may as well start talking to Defilers and Mystics about "poor" Templar damage. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>Now, there do exist other Templars who - for whatever reason - seem to have little problem doing more damage than you claim to be able to produce.  They aren't claiming 20% more, or even 50% more.  No, these Templars are claiming more than <EM>twice</EM> the damage you claim, and sometimes <EM>three</EM> times your numbers. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Gotta be honest man, I don't think they are far off.  While 400-500 DPS may be obtainable, I think it's ridiculously outside the norm.  Out of sheer boredom, I respecced my Templar to full DPS.  40% DPS, 100% Crits, +25% proc, yaluped, and buffed my STR was approaching 350.  Using the spirit gorged flail, I broke 300 a couple times but nowhere near 400-500 I've seen people claim.  It appears to me those numbers are realistic only in a raid group.<BR>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kendricke wrote: <p>Now, there do exist other Templars who - for whatever reason - seem to have little problem doing more damage than you claim to be able to produce.  They aren't claiming 20% more, or even 50% more.  No, these Templars are claiming more than <em>twice</em> the damage you claim, and sometimes <em>three</em> times your numbers. </p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote>Gotta be honest man, I don't think they are far off.  While 400-500 DPS may be obtainable, I think it's ridiculously outside the norm.  Out of sheer boredom, I respecced my Templar to full DPS.  40% DPS, 100% Crits, +25% proc, yaluped, and buffed my STR was approaching 350.  Using the spirit gorged flail, I broke 300 a couple times but nowhere near 400-500 I've seen people claim.  It appears to me those numbers are realistic only in a raid group.<hr></blockquote>Were you using spells or was this just on autoattack.. because 250-300 just off autoattack sounds about right. Espcially considering if you buffed to max crits/dps and max melee procs</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Were you using spells or was this just on autoattack.. because 250-300 just off autoattack sounds about right. Espcially considering if you buffed to max crits/dps and max melee procs<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by boli on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Straight up auto attack with the hammer ability used when it was ready.  I didn't try casting my nukes, as I couldn't imagine it would increase my damage output. 

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> boli wrote: <div></div> <div>Were you using spells or was this just on autoattack.. because 250-300 just off autoattack sounds about right. Espcially considering if you buffed to max crits/dps and max melee procs</div> <p>Message Edited by boli on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:34 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Straight up auto attack with the hammer ability used when it was ready.  I didn't try casting my nukes, as I couldn't imagine it would increase my damage output. <hr></blockquote>Then that's the difference, using your two debuffs (mitgation and divine) in combinaiton with your fast casting nukes and cycling HOs you'll push a lot closer to the number Kendrike was talking about.EDIT: it works better if you use a slower weapon as you are able to cast between the swings and not interupt your autottack as much.</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:46 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>Now, there do exist other Templars who - for whatever reason - seem to have little problem doing more damage than you claim to be able to produce.  They aren't claiming 20% more, or even 50% more.  No, these Templars are claiming more than <EM>twice</EM> the damage you claim, and sometimes <EM>three</EM> times your numbers. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Gotta be honest man, I don't think they are far off.  While 400-500 DPS may be obtainable, I think it's ridiculously outside the norm.  Out of sheer boredom, I respecced my Templar to full DPS.  40% DPS, 100% Crits, +25% proc, yaluped, and buffed my STR was approaching 350.  Using the spirit gorged flail, I broke 300 a couple times but nowhere near 400-500 I've seen people claim.  It appears to me those numbers are realistic only in a raid group.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I solo for well over 500+ DPS with a non-DPS Achievements build and nowhere near 350 Strength.  On Test, with only 35 Achievements, no raid gear at all, and mostly Adept I or worse spells, I was pulling in 600-700 DPS soloing.  It's already possible to hit those numbers with just Kingdom of Sky achievements.  Add in some of the Echoes achievement lines and you'll only see those numbers go up.</P> <P>  </P> <P> </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>Now, there do exist other Templars who - for whatever reason - seem to have little problem doing more damage than you claim to be able to produce.  They aren't claiming 20% more, or even 50% more.  No, these Templars are claiming more than <EM>twice</EM> the damage you claim, and sometimes <EM>three</EM> times your numbers. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Gotta be honest man, I don't think they are far off.  While 400-500 DPS may be obtainable, I think it's ridiculously outside the norm.  Out of sheer boredom, I respecced my Templar to full DPS.  40% DPS, 100% Crits, +25% proc, yaluped, and buffed my STR was approaching 350.  Using the spirit gorged flail, I broke 300 a couple times but nowhere near 400-500 I've seen people claim.  It appears to me those numbers are realistic only in a raid group.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I solo for well over 500+ DPS with a non-DPS Achievements build and nowhere near 350 Strength.  On Test, with only 35 Achievements, no raid gear at all, and mostly Adept I or worse spells, I was pulling in 600-700 DPS soloing.  It's already possible to hit those numbers with just Kingdom of Sky achievements.  Add in some of the Echoes achievement lines and you'll only see those numbers go up.</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yet...you aren't explaining how why? There can't be that much strength in fabled armor.  I've put all 50 AA's into DPS, my gear is mostly legendary and I've even switched out wis items for str. </P> <P>The advice above about a slower weapon (I'll try the blackscale maul) seems plausible, but is my smite line going to do THAT much damage?<BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <P>Yet...you aren't explaining how why? There can't be that much strength in fabled armor.  I've put all 50 AA's into DPS, my gear is mostly legendary and I've even switched out wis items for str. </P> <P>The advice above about a slower weapon (I'll try the blackscale maul) seems plausible, but is my smite line going to do THAT much damage?<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have explained it, several times in several threads.  I've gone into details on why the Blackscale Maul seems to pull in more damage than other weapons (partly the slower speed, partly the wider damage spread). </P> <P>Even then, the Test templar has no raid gear at all - no fabled.  I think I've actually posted the gear used in the Templar Achievement Builds thread (which will be getting an update once the Echoes Achievements are finalized).</P> <P>I'm already seeing a few ways to rebuild Templars for various purposes, on raids or not, in MT groups or not, soloing, PVP, etc..</P> <P>I'm still lobbying hard for some differences to the class specific Achievements, but compared to the first few iterations, the latest version is much better.  It's not where I'd like it quite yet, but it's still much better than before. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <p>Since you've claimed (and recently, in fact) that you can only produce 200-300 DPS while soloing and only half that in groups, I can see why you might feel we're unable to produce much damage.  You've claimed that your Templar is only your secondary that you pull out when no one else wants to play a Templar on your raids...so I can see how you might not be working up to the full potential of the class if it's not exactly your first choice.</p><hr></blockquote>Well, since you are grabbing to this idea for your life, it is time to sink it. The average templar will not out-dps a fury. Also this was about why people get into groups, not why YOU think templars are almost as good as some other classes for a group. There is absolutely nothing a templar can offer to a group that some other healer couldn't. Also in raids one templar is very good to have but second is a hindrance, no one <i>wants</i> to take a templar in their group outside MT. And this means that other healers are chosen first and templars are leftovers. Now true, if there are no other choice, a templar is welcomed. But as last choice. Btw, I generally parse around 80dps zonewide on raids. Why bother with 300 more and give up healing when raid is doing 15k+ already. And like said, if healing is not that needed, there are far better classes than templars to do dps.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have explained it, several times in several threads.  I've gone into details on why the Blackscale Maul seems to pull in more damage than other weapons (partly the slower speed, partly the wider damage spread). </P> <P>Even then, the Test templar has no raid gear at all - no fabled.  I think I've actually posted the gear used in the Templar Achievement Builds thread (which will be getting an update once the Echoes Achievements are finalized).</P> <P>I'm already seeing a few ways to rebuild Templars for various purposes, on raids or not, in MT groups or not, soloing, PVP, etc..</P> <P>I'm still lobbying hard for some differences to the class specific Achievements, but compared to the first few iterations, the latest version is much better.  It's not where I'd like it quite yet, but it's still much better than before. </P> <P><BR> <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So....either a) you are telling me the Blackscale Maul will increase my DPS by 200, or b) you don't know why.</P> <P>I'll let you know tonight.  I'm not in crappy gear and I'm not stupid (in this respect at least), so it's hard for me to grasp how a single weapon can make that much difference.  I can admit when I'm wrong.<BR></P>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>Ha, what a thread derailment.I can't help but add to the mess though.  Kendricke is right about the mechanics method of high range, low speed weapons though.  I currently go around with a <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTEyMDAwODU0NTU=">Vraksakin Claw Club</a>, though its the same idea as a <a target="_blank" href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTg2NzAxODg4NA==">Blackscale Maul</a>.  If you'll notice it has a range of 1-425... but if you were to have 100% melee crits, that 1 more or less dissapears and you only look at the 425.  You'll never critically hit for less than the max range.  Just to start taking healing crits, you must take melee crits up to 50%, which I have.  With weapon delays higher than spell cast times, you'll safely be able to cast nukes and not affect your melee damage one bit... you just need to learn how to cast around your strikes, that's very important.To Radar-X's last post, its hard to say if using this mechanic will raise your DPS 200pts, because its a relative thing... but if before now you never cast nukes while meleeing, I estimate you can see <u>up to</u> a 100% increase.  On raid battles where I try to DPS, my melee and spells are about 50/50.  Its been forever since I tried to do DPS verses solo mobs though... as long as they die, I'm usually happy.  And doing blue/white heroics, as long as I don't die, I'm very happy.Since I have unlimited respecs on Beta, I might try running a few KoS and EoF AA builds to see if I can actually comment on this thread in context.

[Whitemane]

<P>I actually agree somewhat with Timaarit here. Somewhat ;p ( actually after reading his post again pretty much entirely ) </P> <P>Anyways you have got me Beat on the DPS zonewide. Usually Im in abouts 60 or less on a raid. However we usually have only 5 healers sometimes 6 so usually Im pretty busy and just drop the master smites warring axiom etc. when I can ( my guild is upto cheldrak atm havent dropped him yet but I think we should before EoF we're close). Usually I just keep people amused with me comments like " Ubah Templar AoE incoming Taunt [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you taunt!"</P> <P> I do agree that more than 1 Templar on a raid is not really needed but I'd also argue that more than 1 of any type of healer is a waste as their heals dont stack and No healer has enough DPS to replace any T1-2 DPS class. And no priests buffs are  that stellar compared to the other support classes ( chanter / Bard )</P> <P>Yes the fury is perhaps "Less wasted space" due to their buffs but the difference is pretty slight there I myself would take anything over multiple healer types of the same kind. This would be more important I guess if the druids outhealed a Templar but they do not or if the Druid Buffs ( furies) made a signifigant raidwide difference in DPS. Parses that myself and many others show that templar handily beat druids in the amounts healed and DPS wise they arent that good of buffs compared to other support classes). Healing wise the gap is going to get drastically worse in our favour in EoF if things stay they way they are now. People are free to disagree but the numbers Ive seen dont show it. ( Even if I remove the "cheating amounts healed for Mark of .. line I still out heal the druids by alot ). Can they keep their groups up yep are they decent healers yes. </P> <P>So I guess in short I'd say that yeah Templars are not brough to raids for thier DPS ( and I hope they never are&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'd also say neither are Furies. If they are then your raid is probably doomed if your not doing something easy like lyceum or labs.</P> <P> </P> <P>I dunno folks, to me the "My healer does more dps" arguments are kind of pointless. I dont gives a rats behind about my HEALERS dps. My primary concern is do I keep my group/raid alive? Yes. Do I get passed over for other healer types? No never unless they already have a cleric. I actually get asked to come to groups over other healers especailly for the hard stuff like Nizara. I still get complements from guildmates and random folks along the lines of " Didnt think we could do that with 1 healer". </P> <P><sigh><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Since you've claimed (and recently, in fact) that you can only produce 200-300 DPS while soloing and only half that in groups, I can see why you might feel we're unable to produce much damage.  You've claimed that your Templar is only your secondary that you pull out when no one else wants to play a Templar on your raids...so I can see how you might not be working up to the full potential of the class if it's not exactly your first choice.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, since you are grabbing to this idea for your life, it is time to sink it. <BR><BR>The average templar will not out-dps a fury. Also this was about why people get into groups, not why YOU think templars are almost as good as some other classes for a group. There is absolutely nothing a templar can offer to a group that some other healer couldn't. Also in raids one templar is very good to have but second is a hindrance, no one <I>wants</I> to take a templar in their group outside MT. And this means that other healers are chosen first and templars are leftovers. Now true, if there are no other choice, a templar is welcomed. But as last choice.<BR><BR>Btw, I generally parse around 80dps zonewide on raids. Why bother with 300 more and give up healing when raid is doing 15k+ already. And like said, if healing is not that needed, there are far better classes than templars to do dps.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>Message Edited by Whitemane on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Since you've claimed (and recently, in fact) that you can only produce 200-300 DPS while soloing and only half that in groups, I can see why you might feel we're unable to produce much damage.  You've claimed that your Templar is only your secondary that you pull out when no one else wants to play a Templar on your raids...so I can see how you might not be working up to the full potential of the class if it's not exactly your first choice.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, since you are grabbing to this idea for your life, it is time to sink it. <BR><BR>The average templar will not out-dps a fury. Also this was about why people get into groups, not why YOU think templars are almost as good as some other classes for a group. There is absolutely nothing a templar can offer to a group that some other healer couldn't. Also in raids one templar is very good to have but second is a hindrance, no one <I>wants</I> to take a templar in their group outside MT. And this means that other healers are chosen first and templars are leftovers. Now true, if there are no other choice, a templar is welcomed. But as last choice.<BR><BR>Btw, I generally parse around 80dps zonewide on raids. Why bother with 300 more and give up healing when raid is doing 15k+ already. And like said, if healing is not that needed, there are far better classes than templars to do dps.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Since the thread is about Echoes of Faydwer achievements, I can think of two new reasons to take extra Templars on a raid:  Overconfidence and Blessings.  </P> <P>In a non-MT group, the Templar with Blessings can increase relative proc rates on equipment by up to 25%.  Considering the new augments and abilities I've already seen on Faydwer gear and armor sets, that's not a horrible thing to have.  Personally, I'd like to see it increase just a tad more (30-40% at higher end), but 25% isn't bad unto itself, especially with gear that has a proc rate of 10-20+%.  Plate Helm of the Ether?  Righteous Sceptre of the Godking?  Mark of the Awakened?  Those are just a few of the more common items that get a boost right there.  Add in the other items groupmates have that already have procs, and you might start to realize the potential increases right there.</P> <P>Also, in any group on a raid where you have members who might grab hate more often than they probably should, having a Templar with Overconfidence isn't a bad thing, either.  I'll admit I wasn't terribly keen on this at first, but Aditu got me thinking on it, and now I'm a bit more convinced this could really help out in some pretty major ways:  Have a shaman that always get hit right off the bat on a pull?  What about that one wizard or conjuror that's just constantly tagging hate?  Overconfidence is a solution to that problem - like a reverse Rescue.</P> <P>I'm sure we'll still use our druids quite a bit, just as we'll make sure our shaman are along as well, but the Templars will still be brought along.  </P> <P>...</P> <P>Frankly, the bottom line as I see it is that if you don't like your Templar now, these class specific achievements aren't going to suddenly change your mind.  Either you enjoy the class or you don't.  The Templar is not in "god mode" and hasn't been for well over a year.  Like Rangers in classic Everquest who STILL complain to this day about the great "Kunark nerf", there will always be Templars upset with Live Update 13.  At some point, it has to be dropped.</P> <P>It's not just the class that affects numbers.  If you can't pull in more than 300 DPS soloing, that's certainly not a reflection on the class, in my opinion.  That's like saying Ferraris are overrated because it takes you 7 seconds to get it to 60mph.  Sometimes it's the car.  Sometimes it's the driver.  If you can't get your Templar over 200 DPS soloing, I have to ask myself what it is I'm doing to <EM>consistently</EM> hit 600 with worse gear, spells, and achievements.  I guess I'm just some sort of exceptional, unbelievable player, right?  Because according to your statements, the "average" Templar won't be seeing those numbers.</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div>Again, DPS-wise a fury will be better. About 2% of my monks DPS comes from the equipment. 25% to that is insignificant compared to what I can do with a fury. Also if you actually need <i>templar </i>deaggro for someone, what you rally need is better tank. Also I agree with Whitemane, there really is no real need for more than one healer from each class. But like I also said, if you have only few alternatives, a templar really is the last one to be picked. Also I myself like to play templar in raids with 5 or 6 healers. These are the reason why mine is not just yet retired. Note: I am afraid that my templar will never use the EoF AA lines, it has already taken my templar roughly 2 months to get from 46 aa's to 48 <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 PM</span>

[Olivet]

ill just confirm that ive been getting the dps kendricke is talkin about..as i mostly raid, and in MT group, i have to occasionally heal, but even healing I can still clock up 600 odd dps using spurn, warring axiom and holy strike (without a dirge).  All my gear is either fabled or some very nice legendary stuff, and using a haste belt with 50AA's put into DPS melee.   weapon used is the blackscale maul.  I believe in an undead zone like, lyceum, with a dirge in the group, I can possibly get up to 800dps.  Will be testing it out next time we do that zone.as for comparing to a fury DPS, we have a fury in MT group too, 50 AA and raid gear.. he was trying to beat me on DPS on a few pulls and couldnt pull it off.. which is why i dont get this whole fury/templar comparrison arguement.and as for the whole - side comment taken out of context and blown out of proportion - I made about out dpsing necros and assassins.. in raids they clock up 1200-2000dps .. I cant compete with that but when they were slacking a bit - in a fun, messing around 3 group raid in labs - i posted a few higher parses than them and it was just something we joked about over teamspeak.. IM NOT CLAIMING TEMPLARS HAVE MORE DPS THAN ACTUAL DPS CLASSES!<div></div>

[Goozman]

<DIV>If you take the damage spell achievements in EoF and have about 370 INT and 28% spell crits you'll be pushing about 735 dps on singles and 1128dps on groups of 3 with spells alone, no melee. Even if meleeing with a blackscale maul only gave you 300dps, you're looking at quite a bit of dps there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beta buffing is fun</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming the formula is still roughly 1% per 10int, you can reduce those numbers to match your current int by dividing the difference by 10. 370-<FONT color=#99ffff>170</FONT>=200/10=20% 735*(1-.2)=588</DIV><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goozman wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you take the damage spell achievements in EoF and have about 370 INT and 28% spell crits you'll be pushing about 735 dps on singles and 1128dps on groups of 3 with spells alone, no melee. Even if meleeing with a blackscale maul only gave you 300dps, you're looking at quite a bit of dps there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beta buffing is fun</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming the formula is still roughly 1% per 10int, you can reduce those numbers to match your current int by dividing the difference by 10. 370-<FONT color=#99ffff>170</FONT>=200/10=20% 735*(1-.2)=588</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you have time this week before Beta ends, I'd like to get with you and try out some builds to see how high we can get those numbers soloing with various builds.<BR></P>

[Athellias]

<DIV>With my current build I can regularly pull 500+ dps without weakening my healing capabilities. I've tried to find a balance where I still have fun soloing but I remain a fully capable and poweful healer. I still have my heal crits and I've placed most of my points in Blessings along with some in Holy Smites / Compliances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KoS AAs</DIV> <DIV>STR 4488</DIV> <DIV>STA 4488</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Includes Skull Crack (debuff), Hammer Smite (knockdown), Bolt of Power (divine dmg proc), 100% melee crit, 15% heal crit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still curious to know if spell haste really makes that much difference. It is noticeable but the STR line eventually became more attractive to me. With the EoF AAs I may reconsider the INT line again with all the boosts in Holy Smites.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unwavering Resolve balances out the negative effects from Yaulp and I have seen less interrupts and a little more damage with the increase in the disruption skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it just me or has Battle Fervor (auto-attack dmg increase) changed? I thought it was orginally increased by a % and now it is a solid number. I get the feeling a lot of buffs/debuffs are going this route.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EoF AAs</DIV> <DIV>Blessings (max points)</DIV> <DIV>Holy Smites (5 Judging Smite / 5 Holy Strike / 5 Warring Axiom)</DIV> <DIV>Compliances (5 Spurn)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've recently been trying to take down the scavenger named (65^^^) in Kaladim near Heroes Hold and after about 10 attempts, playing with different AA builds and armor, I just can't do it. I got him down to 25% and then I just completely run out of power. I'm really curious how far I can take this but a 65^^^ named seems to be my limit.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>I'm currently equipped in all relic / fabled gear and good 'ole Blackscale Maul. I used to have an entire STR set but once I got my relic I now find it very difficult to give up all that mitigation. Plus it just looks cool. A healer has to have priorities. Ironically, being so attached to that gear is probably my limitation.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Athellias on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 PM</span>

[Goozman]

<DIV>Hey Kendricke. I'm on the Beta PVP server now, soloing in SoS if you wanna catch me. I'm going to edit this post with results later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok here we go. This is me soloing in sanctum of the scaleborn. This beta buffed character had <FONT color=#ff0000>256int, a crappy 1 hand weapon, no prooccing gear whatsoever, 4 4 8 4 8int, 5 ranks in the 2 nukes, dot, and ae, and 5 ranks in Smite Wrath</FONT>. The significance of this soloing was not only the high dps (even while tanking heroics and being interrupted a lot) but the ease and speed at which I was able to solo the entire way to the armory. I've not played a class that soloed faster than this; not because the dps was so much higher than other classes, but because I was never out of power. With the aa's, all these damage spells cost very little power, which is quite a trip.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(00:51) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 27225 - [533.82]</DIV> <DIV>(01:03) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 36853 - [584.97]</DIV> <DIV>(01:03) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 36853 - [584.97]</DIV> <DIV>(00:47) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33817 - [719.51]</DIV> <DIV>(00:51) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 27544 - [540.08]</DIV> <DIV>(00:57) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33945 - [595.53]</DIV> <DIV>(00:51) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33830 - [663.33]</DIV> <DIV>(00:46) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 27008 - [587.13]</DIV> <DIV>(00:47) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33671 - [716.40]   - By this time I was starting to get in the groove<BR>(00:45) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33747 - [749.93]</DIV> <DIV>(00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33218 - [874.16]</DIV> <DIV>(00:45) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 28130 - [625.11]</DIV> <DIV>(00:41) Damage - [DPS]<BR>Lukemia 33453 - [815.93]</DIV> <DIV>(01:36) Damage - [DPS]    - This was a named, the only one that was up unfortunately. (It dropped wood btw)<BR>Lukemia 58732 - [611.79]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were a dozen more fights before where I put the first note, but they were all roughly the same, between 540 and 580dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, this was all without melee speccage and without a blackscale maul. I was tanking, I was being interrupted, sometimes up to 5 times in a row (on 1.5s cast spells omg). I was never in danger, even when I accidentally overpulled.</DIV> <DIV>Also it wasn't even remotely difficult to obtain this dps... I pretty much loaded up a templar, set my hotbars and went on my way.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>One last note: I was a bald female dwarf named Lukemia; I'm well aware that there's a seat in hell waiting for me.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:08 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Wow this thread has gone off on a tangent, but the numbers are intriguing, so I decided to try it out myself.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>At this moment, Felishanna (BETA version) is Sanctum</FONT><FONT color=#ff9900> of Scale, not all that far in, but far enough to have had a succession of fights against ^, ^^ and ^^^ opponents. Felishanna is is normally (none-raid) equipped Templar, an exact copy of her on the Live servers, with a full set of broker-purchased or crafted armour (mostly legendary though), but all her nukes at Master 1. However, she has taken the full 100 AP points designed to get max DPS :-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900><FONT color=#ff9900>Cleric skills (max melee crits and max spell crits and spell cast time</FONT> reducers) :-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>STA 4-4-8</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>INT 8-4-8-8</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>STR 5</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Templar skills :-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Smites 5, Strikes 5, Axiom 5, Blaze 5, Smite Wrath 5 (max spell DPS)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Mark 5, Fate 3, Unyielding 2, Involuntary 3, Glory 3, Fraility 2</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>She is tanking (of course) and using a Blackscale Maul. Only a few of these fights was she using her Unswerving Hammer (ie, those when it was available).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Her numbers are not much different to some of those listed above, but note that this is is with the maximum setup possible for her (I think), without having raid gear of course. Her Extended DPS numbers from Aditu's AST tracker (which I downloaded afresh this evening) were as follows :-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>575</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>535</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>531</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>618</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>532</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>703</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>686</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>605</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>669</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>556</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>540</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>517</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>518</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>653</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>If any of you can suggest ways in which you believe I have not made the optimal choice for her, and would like me to try another build and test with that, feel free to ask and I will happily try it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>If any of you can suggest ways in which you believe I have not made the optimal choice for her, and would like me to try another build and test with that, feel free to ask and I will happily try it.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Based on your Cleric Achievements, try the following Templar specific Achievements:</P> <P>Smites - <BR>Enhance:  Smite 5<BR>Enhance:  Strike 5<BR>Enhance:  Axiom 5<BR>Enhance:  Blaze 5<BR>Smite Wrath 5</P> <P>Compliances:<BR>Enhance:  Spurn 5<BR><BR>Blessings:<BR>Enhance:  Mark 3<BR>Enhance:  Fate 3<BR>Enhance:  Unyielding 2<BR>Enhance:  Involuntary 3<BR>Blessings 5</P> <P>General Reasoning:</P> <P>That dramatically increases spell damage, cast timers, and mitigation debuffing - as well as throwing in an additional 25% proc boost on all equipped gear.</P> <P>Specifics: </P> <UL> <LI>With a Master I Spurn and Enhance: Spurn 5, you should be dropping physical mitigation by 1426.  Use that for pulling.  </LI> <LI>With the proc rate increase (and with Spurn boosted, of course), I'm <EM>autoattacking</EM> for 250-350 DPS using a Grizzfazzles's Staff, and only 200-300 DPS with Blackscale Maul against blue solo targets in the Loping Plains.</LI> <LI>With spell casting however, the Blackscale Maul is much better overall DPS.  </LI> <LI>With Enhance: Axiom 5, you can actually land a new Warring Axiom <EM>before</EM> the previous one drops.  Unfortunately, it's not stacking (it overwrites).</LI> <LI>If you have to heal, try to do it before the fight (reactives) or all at once.  Otherwise, try to use your dazes and stuns which do not count as beneficial (and thus won't stop Smite Wrath for 7 seconds).</LI> <LI>Take off flowing thought gear in favor of STR and INT gear, since most of the spells you'll be casting are now half power cost.</LI> <LI>There's a definate advantage now to casting Mark.  Use it immediately before/after Spurn on pulls.  </LI></UL> <P>Going full bore and all out, I'm hitting 800 - 1,000 DPS on Beta server against undead blue solo targets.  I'm guessing I can hit even higher once I figure out a better casting order.  I would speculate that without any raid level gear and average spells, a Templar should be able to hit around 500-700 DPS fairly consistently.  </P> <P> </P> <P>  <BR><BR><BR><BR></P>

[Caethre]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Ok, swapping back to Felishanna (Beta) now, as she is camped outside the Sanctum.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Bare in mind, I am looking for the highest numbers I can get, but it is important that they are for a non-raiding player and not biased by being against specifically undead, so Sanctum should work fine.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>On my last run, Felishanna was pulling with the dot and then using mark almost at once, but was then going full bore with nukes whilst meleeing, not using Spurn - she usually only had to heal once that way. (I didn't count those fights where a heroic add happened whilst she had a heroic encounter already, since then she started using Fraility and Stun to control them, lowering the DPS to keep herself alive, so I didnt include those fights in the DPS lists above).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>I will accept all your other suggestions, and go for another run now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>I will change her EOF AA spec to exactly what you specified above, and will use Spurn to pull with as you suggested. I will precast a reactive on myself before each pull, again as you suggested (I didn't actually do that last time, but we are trying to get the maximum numbers here on normal mobs). I will still use Mark after Spurn.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>The only thing I won't be able to do is swap gear out, I'll just use my normal gear she generally has, since she doesnt carry spare sets of gear (and I don't think a lot of players do). For a casual player, Felishanna's gear is actually a bit too good anyway, because I can afford to pay for legendary things many others cant due to her Sage business being successful, but since on Beta she sacrificed all her old gear at her altar (testing purposes), that is not an option either, so I will work with what she has.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>I will post results when I have them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV>

[Goozman]

<DIV>When I was running the Templar, I wasn't casting any debuffs. The few times I did, my dps was the same. My melee was only about 40dps(lame 1 hand hammer) so I wasn't concerned with mitigation or crits or yaulp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My casting order was typically strike > judgement thing (forgot the name already, the smaller nuke) > axiom > judgement > blaze of faith > judgement > strike. I mixed it up a bit by the end but didn't really have an order, was just playing by feel. I was spam casting, which is a lot easier just assigning them to 1 2 3 and 4; easy on the finger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had access to a blackscale maul, I would have gone melee crits and dps probably, but I wouldn't have changed the way I cast at all. With the speed of casting the damage spells, I figure the most the melee hit would be waiting in queue is a second or so, and a 1400 damage hit every 7-8 seconds would have boosted the dps by 135-160 (I subtracted the 40dps from the weapon I was using) for 0 power wee. I don't even want to try to calculate in double attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would definitely like to test it out with 200 more INT tho.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goozman wrote:<BR> <DIV>When I was running the Templar, I wasn't casting any debuffs. The few times I did, my dps was the same. My melee was only about 40dps(lame 1 hand hammer) so I wasn't concerned with mitigation or crits or yaulp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My casting order was typically strike > judgement thing (forgot the name already, the smaller nuke) > axiom > judgement > blaze of faith > judgement > strike. I mixed it up a bit by the end but didn't really have an order, was just playing by feel. I was spam casting, which is a lot easier just assigning them to 1 2 3 and 4; easy on the finger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had access to a blackscale maul, I would have gone melee crits and dps probably, but I wouldn't have changed the way I cast at all. With the speed of casting the damage spells, I figure the most the melee hit would be waiting in queue is a second or so, and a 1400 damage hit every 7-8 seconds would have boosted the dps by 135-160 (I subtracted the 40dps from the weapon I was using) for 0 power wee. I don't even want to try to calculate in double attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would definitely like to test it out with 200 more INT tho.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've parsed Spurn at Adept I adding about 15-20% overall DPS while using a Blackscale Maul.  Obviously, using something less effective isn't going to require Spurn.  </P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Ok with that setup/approach :-</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>614<BR>797<BR>643<BR>888<BR>673<BR>561<BR>574<BR>642<BR>607</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>This is certainly a little bit higher than my previous run, Spurn was clearly a good call. The Blessings however I think was ineffective, I used it anyway, but Felishanna has no gear with any procs on at all, so it was a waste - that said, choosing Glory 2 instead would not have made any measureable difference I believe.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Bear in mind, some of those fights are against ^ not ^^ or ^^^. That 888 value is a spike, but the highest I have ever seen, but was against a ^, even so. Again, all this is in standard gear from the broker, that a family guild or even unguilded player could get (though the latter would take a lot of time making the coin to pay for!), without biasing against specific target types, and without unrealistic messing with stats (that normal players just wouldn't be doing).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>It seems the range over the two samples suggests about 550-650 is reasonably achievable with 100 AP points, pretty much in line with your prediction. I confess this is better than I had predicted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>The million dollar question now is - what could other priests manage with 100 APs (with all the same provisos)?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </P>

[Sokolov]

How is Beta working now?  I never signed up but if I could do it I would test it for you.Keep in mind tho that as a Defiler my DPS lies mostly in AE fights where my dots can run full duration and my 3 AEs can go nuts (but only once every 3 minutes or so).As it is, I have trouble hitting 400 in raids currently on Live.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<DIV>I decided to cut this post cause I'm goin off on a far tangent. Suffice it to say, Templars are a fun and quick solo class, so I have a hard time respecting anyone who says otherwise. Furies will finally be able to do more dps than Templars after EoF, but as far as soloing Heroics, Templars are faster (because of power).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was doing Nest with a Templar last night and I finally found a mob that was challenging. The bird behind the Taskmaster took 4 tries before I actually won, and after the fight I had no power. After finally killing him, I didn't really wanted to go on cuz I was pretty darn tired.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, Wardens are getting the shaft as far as DPS goes.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Goozman on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I was preferring not to try Annaelisa in a dungeon unless I could get the tier 7 root spell for her, as that would increase her DPS a fair amount over what she already would have, but it has not been added to the Sage recipe books (or wasn't when I last checked), so she still has to tank. </FONT><FONT color=#ff9900>Furthermore, whereas Felishanna is in full legendary armour, Annaelisa only has 4 of her 16 armour/jewelry slots at legendary, the rest are all dragonhide/moonstone jewelry, so she is a lot less well equipped.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>But even with these disadvantages, I will see how she performs.</FONT></P>

[Caethre]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>These are Anna's numbers on the same mobs Felishanna fought yesterday (again, note WITHOUT ROOT, so she had to tank) :-</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>879<BR>1207<BR>1059<BR>755<BR>1114<BR>871<BR>740<BR>1231<BR>1178<BR>884<BR>673<BR>1226</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Anna didn't have any trouble except with one ^^^ that insisted on stunning her, and that was a bit messy and she almost died (but she didn't!). Other than that, a piece of cake - as soloing always is with her (I am an experienced Fury soloer it has to be said).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>There is more variation than for a templar, as if both Energy Vortex and Ring of Fire are up, the DPS cranks up, but without them both, it is lower, so things take longer to kill, so she needed to self-heal, making them longer again.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>The last two fights above are very illustrative too. The second to last fight, Anna had a heroic droag pop on her head when I wasn't expecting it, and without any preparation or precast heal, and with Vortex down, she took an early beating before winning. The last fight though, against the exact same mob, with pre-cast heal, pre-cast Ring of Fire and pull with Thunderbolt and Energy Vortex, and her DPS doubled.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>The range I will assume from the above for a casual player Fury with 100 APs would is ~ 700-1200 DPS, which is (as predicted) a lot more than Felishanna could hope to manage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>And... that is without root too.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </P>

[Boli32]

<blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ff9900">And... that is without root too.</font></p> <hr></blockquote>Root would lower the dps a lot but make it a lot safer. We pretty much only have 2 nukes (and a wand if you want to use that) so thunderbolt+starnova only for root/nuke afraid the dps will be terrible, a significant amount of damage is done via RoF our DoTs and our Damage Shield. But a nice comparison of numbers.<div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Could you please tell/show us what youre killing in your test? I mean it doesnt show if youre fighting to your best strength as in grp mobs for furies etc how much int too and if its the complete same mobs youre killing etc....</P> <P>Also i havent heard anything about downtime or how much mana fights took I know a starnova+vortex= more than 500 points of power spent vortex is a powerhog and our dmg spells are already quite powerheavy.</P> <P>Also how safe is it to fight with your templar vs a fury thats has to be taken into account as well dmg taken reactive vs hot etc. using rof/cos is a bit situational of the area youre fighting in (aggro).</P> <P>the avg of <STRONG>your</STRONG> parses on your templar was 666(! evil cleric lol) dps vs 985 for furies, you parsed 9 fights vs 12 fights and at some encounters your dps was the same as a templar vs a fury or very close.</P> <P>Comparing fights of only 9-12 mobs with quite some difference in dps even in the parse of 1 class is also not that accurate.</P> <P>To be completeley honest parses by certain people i believe more or less than parses from other people based on posts from the past, not saying you just made numbers up or something but we have to trust your blue eyes here.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:05 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<P><FONT color=#ff9900>OOC.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>For both of them, I just zoned in, ran up the Sanctum steps, killing the weak mobs on the way (not counting those in the parse), then started killing clockwise around the room, killing all the pairs of v droags, the roaming ^, the static ^, the ^ in the centre as well as the portal guard named ^, then through the left door, kill the roaming ^^^, then the 3 or is it 4 pairs of ^^, then I think it is 2 of the ^^^. Then I stopped and came back, killing any repops.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I didn't count messy fights (where I got adds, which I either fought or I just zoned out). I also didnt count the two occasions (once on each character) where I died due to trying to get max DPS and refusing to heal and not quite making it heh.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>No encounter was larger than 2 mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Safety was not really an issue except where heroic adds came along, then it was dangerous (especially for Anna, she just ran then). Power was never an issue for Feli unless she got adds. It was more power-hungry on Anna, but usually still not too bad again unless she was chain-soloing heroics, then she had to slow down. Fury power consumption is higher, certainly. The difference in gear made that a lot worse too - Anna is in rags compared to Felishanna, sadly.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>That said, out of combat power regen being as high as it is with drinks that are dirt cheap these days on the broker, power usage is not the limiting factor compared to time-to-kill.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Comparing fights of only 9-12 mobs with quite some difference in dps even in the parse of 1 class is also not that accurate.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I agree.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>This was not an accurate or even a decent test, I'll admit that straight off. I didn't plan it, I just killed what I met in both cases, so it wasn't normalized per mob type or encounter type. I only chose it because I didn't / don't have much time, and others in the thread did this zone so I did the same.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>For a real test, it would need to be set up against one mob type and repeated many times, and then done again against another mob/encounter type, and again, etc. Furthermore, since I personally look at these things from a casual player perspective, I would always choose mobs that are meant to be soloed by the average casual player, and things that would generally need to be soloed in game, not heroics in a dungeon designed as group encounters for level 60-65s, . The best examples are quest mobs and writ mobs (at the appropriate level of course).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>That all said, the DPS figures were actually felt pretty much the same against ^ and ^^^ for both characters, which I suppose is not a surprise, because ^ still take long enough to kill to go through all the recast timers a couple of times anyway.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>To be completeley honest parses by certain people i believe more or less than parses from other people based on posts from the past, not saying you just made numbers up or something but we have to trust your blue eyes here.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I am very honest when it comes to numbers / facts, whatever you may feel about my views.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>However, if Aditu is still reading this, he is the author of the parser and has no axe to grind in this at all (I think?), so I'd be happy to meet him over the weekend on Beta if he was available, so he could parse Anna and Feli soloing a writ, maybe Barren Sky aviaks or Bonemire ravasects or something, and he could post his results?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I'm in Europe, not sure what timezone you are on - Aditu, would this be possible? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Added to this, you could always do some measurements of your own? I have somewhat limited time at the moment, is all...</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>Whenever I try testing something that requires a lot of time, I seem to get sucked into other things, and I more or less lose my spot.  Weekends are notoriously bad for me to try to plan things in.  Especially to plan with others.I've found the best way to test most things is on heroic mobs with a lot of health.  If you have to, you can use grey mobs that can heal.  The Thexian camp in LFay has some nice L55 mobs that heal themselves.  Else if you're up for a challenge, you can go to places like Bonemire and find a blue heroic without too many special skills.  Its always important to find a mob that won't randomly debuff your skills or things like that. I guess I somewhat lost what the point of this thread was as well.  Just how high you can get DPS or not?<div></div>

[Goozman]

<DIV>I was soloing ^^^'s and the 2 ^^ groups all the way to the armory when I was testing Templar, Warden, and Fury (well the 2 druids didn't make it all the way); no solo mobs were included, which is why I included the mob hp.</DIV>