Why are you a Templar?

[Kasias81]

<DIV>I am a high school head football coach.  I have always been drawn to the healer class.  I think its because of the support aspect of it, I like helping others (the teacher/coach in me) succeed.  I also of course, like being needed/wanted by others to play.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why are you a Templar??</DIV>

[Sonaht]

My main reason is that it's a good match to play with my husband's zerker. We can play together under any circumstances, just us two or in a full raid. I find that, as opposed to my Warden, my Templar can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'".  The reactives let me participate in close fighting, and I have strength gear and Yaulp handy for those times I want to go into "tank mode". Why is my husband the fighter and not me? I have experimented with a few and there is one over-riding practical reason: I have no sense of direction and get lost in the maze dungeons and he doesn't. We have a Fury/Monk duo also and it just seems wrong to set the healer as point because the tank is totally turned around. I also don't especially like having a group of people shouting Target! Target! at me all the time. I think it's true that those of us who find a supporting role in RL enjoyable also tend to enjoy that in-game as opposed to the stress of being the center stage hero.<div></div>

[Mesastaphal]

<DIV>Kasias you hit the nail on the head for me, I just generally like helping others and it's nice to always be in demand for groups.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mesastaphales on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:02 PM</span>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>Seven years as an EQ1 cleric... I couldn't think of a class I would rather play. <span>:smileyvery-happy:I think I definitely like the support role as well... which is strange, because I'm somewhat anti-social IRL... so you'd think picking a class that shines only in groups would be adverse.  But I absolutely love raiding.  I also think I don't like loot enough to fight people for it, so I'd be a lousy melee class, and a horrible tank.  I've never played a tank class in EQ2, but I didn't like it so much in EQ1...  it was hard to get a vantage point to see everything you needed to.  Oh, and I hate melee range attacks. <span>:smileytongue:  Soloing and grouping it doesn't matter a ton, but geez... you couldn't pay me to chase around mobs on a raid for very long.  Nuke happy sorcerers...<span>:smileyindifferent:</span></span></span><div></div>

[RipFlex]

<DIV>Main reason, perfect philosophy to me, whenever you start any MMO you play a "one-trick-pony" Healer to see the "End Game" content.  Eveyone needs a Healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second reason, thought maybe it be a Battle Priest (I did not play EQ1), but I was wrong, esp after LU#13.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second toon I make that's a Hybrid pick where it can easily go anywhere and do almost anything (not necessarily End Game) and that's 100% fun.... My Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class=date_text>10-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

[Kasias81]

I've heard that from many people Rip, monks are fun.  Perhaps after I get my Temp to 70, I'll get one of those started, but I think my first love will always be my Templar.

[Cowdenic]

<P>I chose Templar because they were the Good Cleric. I thought Clerics would mean D&D type cleric you know Turning Undead, massive heals, melee damage, and big armor. </P> <P>Well we got big armor. :p</P> <P>Thats why Mr. Templar is now retired.</P>

[Kasias81]

Which char do you play now, Cow?

[StevusX]

<P>i agree with Cow - wanted a big plate wearing mace smiting healer !</P> <P>Disappointed with Soe's definition and implementation of templar tbh </P> <P>i think it was Cow in another forum who suggested combining Pally and templars </P> <P>- i like that even though it will never happen as its closer to my idea of Templar Knights !</P> <P>but got to 70 and still play him most days as my main  :smileytongue:</P> <P> </P> <P>ps - do love my sk and necro alts though - way more fun :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kasias81 wrote:<BR> Which char do you play now, Cow?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>for the time being my warlock, although i am slowly leveling a troubador (yes to answer your question I am a glutton for punishment) and a swashbuckler. I also have a coercer I am playing with and a conjuror. On my other account I have a wizard and I will be starting an assassin once the fae are released. Because there is something humorous about a fairy assassin in my mind. </P> <P>But if Sony seriously does not fix some stuff, I will probably leave eq2 for greener pastures. like  going back to WOW or CoV or maybe even DDO. Probably DDO.</P> <P>I am just getting to the point where with 2 toons at 70, 3 toons in their 20's 1 toon in their 50's and one toon in his teens, plus many many deleted toons I have basically done everything, been everywhere, and seen it all. </P> <P>The game is getting bland and Sony needs to spice it up period. There isnt a zone I havent seen in EQ2 (including Prexus whoops!!!) so what remains????? honestly not much.</P>

[Kizee]

<P>I am still trying to figure out why I still play mine. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>All I know is that I won't be playing another game where all the healers are considered the same healing power.</P>

[Supernova17]

Endgame mainly. Any game I've picked up I've almost always mastered, so I like to be out doing the hardest possible challegnes with equally skilled players. Back when I created my Templar, it was mainly the fact that I would sit around in a group on my first character and we'd be looking for a healer for hours so I asked a friend what the most purest healer was and he told me to roll a Templar (this was like between LU1 and LU3). Hey, someone has to make the class look good too with all this whining and complaining going on (not just with our class, but with nearly every class in the game sheesh)  <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

I see the "we wanna be the best healers, above all the other priests" are still about. Templar 'cause heavy armour looks spiffy (Still playing as one, as we can't find another mug to raid as a templar) <div></div>

[Supernova17]

<blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:I see the "we wanna be the best healers, above all the other priests" are still about. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Only because the "we wanna be the best solo priest class with the most dps" are still about. Some of us actually care about trying to be a healer once in awhile. I for one have been and still am appalled at our current achievements where almost all revolve around increasing our dps. If only healing Templars got into Beta and gave their 2 cents, but alas we are not allowed in because there isn't enough room after all the solo dps Templars have been invited.<div></div>

[RipFlex]

<P>I really do not think our DPS is that bad, what makes it seem bad is this : Fizzle.. Interrupted.. Interrrupted.. Fizzle.. Cast a Smite, Fizzle.. Fizzle.. Fizzle.. Fizzle Cast a Cure, Interrupted... Start HO Interrupted.. Interrupted.. Fizzle.. Smite 1, Fizzle.. Interrupted.. Smite 2 end HO.. Stunned, Stifled.. (Rinse and repeat)</P> <P>Seriously, my Scout and 2 Fighters may get stunned here and there, but never see a Fizzle (except manastone) or and Interrupt that often.</P> <P>We probably only dish out half the DPS potential.  Ya to no fizzles coming expansion.</P> <P> </P> <P>Other than that I enjoy my Templar.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>To answer the original question, I'm a Templar because I enjoy the support role.  I enjoy the control aspect of the Templar.  When a situation goes bad - really bad - I feel that Templars have more tools and methods to "save the day" than any other healing class.  Groups I join tend to know me and understand what they're getting.  If they do not, I show them, then explain after the fact why it is they are currently assigning loot instead of trying to figure out the fastest way back to the scene of the wipe. </P> <P>When my full healing prowess isn't needed, I love being able to pull out a giant hammer and wade into combat pulling in 2-300 DPS just on autoattack.  I'm a battle priest of the first order in those situations - when I'm either by myself or assisting a group.  I've not only collecting a set of gear for damage that works well for the task, but I've rather enjoyed finding ways to put up numbers that other Templars still claim are "impossible" or "improbable".  It's a source of no small amount of pride when I'm able to prove that Templars can put out significant healing AND damage - especially to those who gave up on the class long ago instead of trying to find out more and more.</P> <P>I love being a Templar.  There simply isn't another class for me that gives me the same level of enjoyment and pride right now.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

When I am a templar, I am one because none of the others in guild want to raid with theirs. <div></div>

[Fuzzey]

Plain and simple: it's in the blood....either you are a Templar, or you are not....I....am a Templar <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Supernova17]

That's just it, Templars don't really do good damage until we have high STR, max'd AA's and a solid Fabled 2 hander. Sure I can do 400dps on a single target just auto attacking and using Axiom, but it pales in comparison to what a top notch dps class can do. When I log over to my Conjuror (he's oldschool, not FOTM) and start doing 800dps on a single target without trying and up to 1200dps on an AOE fight....and he's still not anywhere close to 70 and is only using adept3's, I really start to care less about my Templar's damage output in a group. Now solo'ing, well I never really solo with my Templar because he's for raiding, and the only quests that are worth doing are group or raid. I'm cool with everything so long as it's balanced this time around, no more 90% dps AA's and 10% healer AA's. It needs to be 50/50 or something. I want to max out healing above all else, that isn't a bad thing to wish for. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

Well, I am a templar whenever I log to one <span>:smileywink:</span>. But just to be a templar isn't good enough reason anymore to log. Main reason for this is propably all the trash mobs before anything more difficult. There generally is no need for any healing before those so a templar who picked healing aa's is really useless on those. And extremely boring. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>That's just it, Templars don't really do good damage until we have high STR, max'd AA's and a solid Fabled 2 hander. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh really?  My Test templar pulls 6-800 DPS with just 30 achievements, only about 300 Strength, and all treasured and legendary gear - no raid or fabled gear at all.</P> <P>I realize it's not Wizard level DPS, but is there really anything wrong with ~800 DPS?  If so, what do you consider "good damage"?</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

Are you healing when you do that dps? Because I have seen some furies top both, healing and dps parse on some fights when grouping. Also 30 aa's means low 60's. That is a loooong time to play with gimped class. You seem to be ignoring every argument about how templars should have higher base damage and lower aa damage. I guess you just pick your fights so that you can be right. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Well, I am a templar whenever I log to one <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN>. But just to be a templar isn't good enough reason anymore to log. <BR><BR>Main reason for this is propably all the trash mobs before anything more difficult. There generally is no need for any healing before those so a templar who picked healing aa's is really useless on those. And extremely boring.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Haven't we been over this before?  I use healing achievements.  I'm not "really useless":</P> <P><BR><IMG src="http://www.legion-whiterose.com/screenshots/TemplarSolo1.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P><IMG src="http://www.legion-whiterose.com/screenshots/TemplarSolo2.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I realize 15-20 seconds may seem like <EM>forever</EM>...but seriously, enough to count as "extremely boring"?  </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:Well, I am a templar whenever I log to one <span>:smileywink:</span>. But just to be a templar isn't good enough reason anymore to log. Main reason for this is propably all the trash mobs before anything more difficult. There generally is no need for any healing before those so a templar who picked healing aa's is really useless on those. And extremely boring. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Haven't we been over this before?  I use healing achievements.  I'm not "really useless":</p> <hr></blockquote>So to prove that we have a dps role in groups, you link soloing parses. I generally parsed 1/2 of my solo DPS when I used to group. It was so funny to lose both dps and healing parses to a fury in the same group that I decided to raid only.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Are you healing when you do that dps? Because I have seen some furies top both, healing and dps parse on some fights when grouping.<BR><BR>Also 30 aa's means low 60's. That is a loooong time to play with gimped class. You seem to be ignoring every argument about how templars should have higher base damage and lower aa damage. I guess you just pick your fights so that you can be right.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm not ignoring anything.  Right now, I have three - count 'em - three Templars on three different servers just to respond to arguments like this.   On Antonia Bayle, I've got only one character - a Templar - who has never grouped once, nor was able to be twinked (shared banks don't cross servers).  I've soloed everything up through the 20's so far, and I intend on soloing him to 70.   On Test and on Guk, I have my level 70 Templars.  Don't tell me I'm just "picking my fights so [I] can be right".  First, it's untrue and inaccurate.  Secondly, it's irrelevant to the points I'm raising here.  Third, it only helps to invalidate your own perspective since you have just the one Templar and you claim you don't play him that often.  </P> <P>In a previous argument with me you claimed I was lying to pull in more than 500 DPS soloing with my healing Templar.  At that time, I posted the screenshots you have above and you suddenly backed out of the argument after claiming you couldn't hit higher than 300 DPS with "the same set up".  Need a link?</P> <P>Now, you're suddenly switching to how much damage you've "seen" Furies pulling in during groups.  Were those Furies without achievements, or are your arguments about "base damage" without achievements suddenly only counting toward Templars?  (...and you claim I'm choosing which points to ignore).</P> <P>Every time I claim a point, you seem to claim I'm either dodging the issue or lying.  Each time, I come back with screenshots and parses and you either suddenly back out of the argument, alter your original premise, or claim I'm fabricating what's before you.  However, again, just this week...I'll put together some parses and screenshots again during groups.</P> <P>Remember though, Templars don't need to heal as much as other classes typically.  I once posted a parse here that showed me healing a group of three swashbucklers for 10 combats straight, using ONLY debuffs and Glory of Combat.  I'm fairly certain I can do the same or similar with a good group in ...say, Halls of Fate?  While I'm at it, I'll track the difference in damage just my Spurn debuff adds to the group overall.  What?  In a group setting, I can't count additional damage help with indirectly?  I can only count the goals, but not the assists in a team based situation?</P> <P>There's a lot- a LOT that Templars bring to a group.  Just because you personally find issue with the class doesn't mean the class itself is broken.  After all, we've seen what your personal perception regarding our abilities amounted to in the past - each and every time I was able to prove to you that what you claim can't be done, actually <EM>can</EM> be done.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Well, I am a templar whenever I log to one <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN>. But just to be a templar isn't good enough reason anymore to log. <BR><BR>Main reason for this is propably all the trash mobs before anything more difficult. There generally is no need for any healing before those so a templar who picked healing aa's is really useless on those. And extremely boring.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Haven't we been over this before?  I use healing achievements.  I'm not "really useless":</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So to prove that we have a dps role in groups, you link soloing parses. I generally parsed 1/2 of my solo DPS when I used to group. It was so funny to lose both dps and healing parses to a fury in the same group that I decided to raid only.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wait a minute!?  You pull in half your solo DPS in groups typically?  In past discussions, you've claimed that you couldn't pull in more than 300 DPS while soloing.  I may not be a very sophisticated fellow, but doesn't that mean you're bringing in roughly 150 DPS in groups?  Just 150?  I AUTOATTACK for more than 150 DPS.  My unswerving hammer pulls in ~80 DPS just by itself.  Other Templars on this forum pull in more than 500 DPS <EM>while raid healing</EM>.  </P> <P>How are you NOT pulling in more than 150 DPS?  </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

Well, I have tried some approaches on this (biggest problem is propably low 80% hit rate). With 2,5s delay fabled weapon, yaulp and no nuking, I get around 150 dps. Then with the same weapon, no yaulp and nuking, 150 dps. Power consumption was higher with yaulp than with nukes. If I tried nuking with yaulp, I got around 180dps but went oop so fast that it started to slow us down in comparison. With blackscale maul, yaulp and nuking, I have been able to break that 200dps limit situationally when absolutely no healing has been needed. Even on raids, I just cant break that when using yaulp, 2,5s weapon and autoattack even with capped str and dirge and zerker in group. I have 5 points in melee crits. But then in raids I am there for healing (which generally negates the yaulp haste). When healing is not an issue, I play my monk or conjuror for dps. Which is exactly what I said. There is no use for a templar in groups before you get to the nameds. Why would you want to add 150 to 300 dps when the rest of the gruop is already doing almost 4k. It is more annoying to position yourself for that dps for the short duration when you know you aren't really doing anything. Thus I might go all out every now and then till I see the parse again. Then I just drop back and spam reactives while hoping the tank gets hit often enough. So when we group, we just pick a fury who can nuke while healing and doesn't get bored. Note that me and my guildies are well geared which trivializes most of the content. In HoF we pull a room at a time with just one healer (when it is the fury, he is often topping the dps chart also). Now while my templar can heal those as well, I really am not going to do much damage. That 100 to 150 is accurate if I remember to pop up my autoattack every few seconds when the old target dies. Now I propably could do higher damage with single target pulls. But really, what would be the point there when it wastes everyone elses dps. <- rant about our AE, or rather the lack of them. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Well, I have tried some approaches on this (biggest problem is propably low 80% hit rate). With 2,5s delay fabled weapon, yaulp and no nuking, I get around 150 dps. Then with the same weapon, no yaulp and nuking, 150 dps. Power consumption was higher with yaulp than with nukes. If I tried nuking with yaulp, I got around 180dps but went oop so fast that it started to slow us down in comparison.<BR><BR>With blackscale maul, yaulp and nuking, I have been able to break that 200dps limit situationally when absolutely no healing has been needed. Even on raids, I just cant break that when using yaulp, 2,5s weapon and autoattack even with capped str and dirge and zerker in group. I have 5 points in melee crits. But then in raids I am there for healing (which generally negates the yaulp haste). When healing is not an issue, I play my monk or conjuror for dps.<BR><BR>Which is exactly what I said. There is no use for a templar in groups before you get to the nameds. Why would you want to add 150 to 300 dps when the rest of the gruop is already doing almost 4k. It is more annoying to position yourself for that dps for the short duration when you know you aren't really doing anything. Thus I might go all out every now and then till I see the parse again. Then I just drop back and spam reactives while hoping the tank gets hit often enough. So when we group, we just pick a fury who can nuke while healing and doesn't get bored.<BR><BR>Note that me and my guildies are well geared which trivializes most of the content. In HoF we pull a room at a time with just one healer (when it is the fury, he is often topping the dps chart also). Now while my templar can heal those as well, I really am not going to do much damage. That 100 to 150 is accurate if I remember to pop up my autoattack every few seconds when the old target dies.<BR><BR>Now I propably could do higher damage with single target pulls. But really, what would be the point there when it wastes everyone elses dps. <- rant about our AE, or rather the lack of them.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've been making this argument for well over a year now, but if healing isn't needed, you're not hitting challenging enough content.  If you're "well geared" enough to "trivalize" the content, then stop using trivial content to make your arguments that healing isn't needed.  Switch from Den of the Devourer and Halls of Fate to Nektropos III and Nizara.  </P> <P>Most Templar healing is wasted in general content.  You have to find harder content to truly shine as a Templar.  In general, typical, run-of-the-mill content any healer will work - that's the way the system's been designed.  At that point, yes, you'll want to find more DPS as well.  However, if you're in areas where you can pull entire rooms, then absolutely, you'll want to build your group around AE DPS.  This is not any different from putting together AE groups in classic Everquest:  no tank -  just 3-4 damage casters, an enchanter, a cleric, and maybe a bard all throwing AE stuns and damage spells to clear an area fast before moving to the next spawn.</P> <P>That said, I'm pulling a great deal more than 150 damage in most groups...typically at least 4-500.  Based on your former and now current claims regarding your inability to pull in more than 2-300, I can't say I was terribly surprised to hear you feel our damage is low.  I know Illusionists that claim their class is broken when they can't pull in more than 2-300 DPS as well...then I group with a few of our Illusionists who pull in more than 800-1000 and wonder why the massive difference.</P> <P>Honestly, if you're so well geared you're trivializing content, why can't you pull in anything close to the DPS my modestly geared Templar does?  Am I some sort of anamoly?  Am I an exception to the rule?  Or is it me at all?  Is it possible that the problem in this specific equation has nothing to do with me or even with the class?  Is it the class...or the player?</P> <P>I don't know.  You tell me.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>I've been making this argument for well over a year now, but if healing isn't needed, you're not hitting challenging enough content.  If you're "well geared" enough to "trivalize" the content, then stop using trivial content to make your arguments that healing isn't needed.  Switch from Den of the Devourer and Halls of Fate to Nektropos III and Nizara. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Exactly. But again, a templar is not required there, any 2 healers are sufficient. Also if you group with a shaman, a druid is far superior than a cleric. And this is because reactives have to be precast and the procs are lost on reactives while target is at full health and wards are holding. HoT's can be cast after target has taken damage and they will heal even when the mob is tunned and thus not attacking. Cleric is reduced to direct heals only. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Btw, Nek3 is a really trivial zone. </font> </p> <p>Most Templar healing is wasted in general content.  You have to find harder content to truly shine as a Templar.  In general, typical, run-of-the-mill content any healer will work - that's the way the system's been designed.  At that point, yes, you'll want to find more DPS as well.  However, if you're in areas where you can pull entire rooms, then absolutely, you'll want to build your group around AE DPS.  This is not any different from putting together AE groups in classic Everquest:  no tank -  just 3-4 damage casters, an enchanter, a cleric, and maybe a bard all throwing AE stuns and damage spells to clear an area fast before moving to the next spawn. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Why cleric? Pick up a fury and you will add 15 to 20% to groups DPS on the big fights. Cleric heals no better and has basically nonexistent dps there.</font> </p> <p>That said, I'm pulling a great deal more than 150 damage in most groups...typically at least 4-500.  Based on your former and now current claims regarding your inability to pull in more than 2-300, I can't say I was terribly surprised to hear you feel our damage is low.  I know Illusionists that claim their class is broken when they can't pull in more than 2-300 DPS as well...then I group with a few of our Illusionists who pull in more than 800-1000 and wonder why the massive difference. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Well we dont take a paladin as DPS so why should we take a cleric? A fury will double that and heal just as well.</font></p> <p>Honestly, if you're so well geared you're trivializing content, why can't you pull in anything close to the DPS my modestly geared Templar does?  Am I some sort of anamoly?  Am I an exception to the rule?  Or is it me at all?  Is it possible that the problem in this specific equation has nothing to do with me or even with the class?  Is it the class...or the player?</p> <p>I don't know.  You tell me.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">I dont know. I have used the exact sequence mentioned on these boards with fully specced to DPS lines, 350str, 250int and blackscale maul. My DPS varied from 200 to 500 on solo basilisks. 200 when they used some debuff on me and 500 with hammer pet and 0 misses. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Maybe I cant play a dps role on the templar, using those 4 buttons in a row can be really hard. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Hmm, now one thing came to my mind, maybe it is a timing issue. The maul has 8s delay, with the FBSS and Yaulp, the delay is 5,2s. I cast spells every 2,5s. This means I will effectively be hitting every 7,5s with the maul since when spamming I will just start casting before a hit is due. And when I try to wait, I will miss casting time. Lag from net doesn't help. But spamming spells means losing about 30% of the autoattack damage. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Now I haven't tried soloing nor grouping after I got the gloves from MoA trial from a friend, those lower the delay to under 5s thus adding that 30% to autoattack dps. Which would mean beating 200dps with the maul and yaulp and adding 150+ more when nuking too. </font></p> <hr></blockquote>Now I can say for certain that 400dps is definately not enough to justify me to play the templar again. Like said, it will drain power really fast and 10% more dps to a group on trivial mobs isn't really that helpful. The thing is that clerics have too weak nukes with far too short recasts. This means we can either nuke or heal. Bigger nukes with longer recasts would not increase the dps but it would enable us to heal and nuke. Also the issue about lower level cleric dps still remains. That is really crappy in comparison till you can get to 60's with 30+ AA's and the maul. So increase in the relative power of the nukes and decrease in aa dps is needed.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>I spend a lot of my time helping others in the "real world".  I believe that filters through to how I choose to play games such as this, or even how I post on these forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many "Templars" spend all of their time pointing out only what is wrong or weak or "broken" with our class, whereas I try to spend time pointing out ways to get the most from the class.  While other Templars complained about control spells, I built a guide on how to use the control spells to our advantage.  While other Templars claimed we couldn't solo effectively without raid level gear, I levelled up a Templar on test and found ways to improve our soloability.  While other "Templars" spend time pointing out how much better other classes are, and how someone would be wasting their time to play a Templar, I spend time pointing out strengths in the Templar class, and trying to help other Templars become better at our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not a "Sunday Templar".  I'm not a secondary Templar.  I'm not someone's "alt".  I'm not a two-boxed healing raidbot.  I'm a Templar through and through.  This is my primary.  This is the class I choose to play.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a Templar to help others.  I play a Templar to improve my playing.  I play a Templar to prove the naysayers wrong.  We're a strong class.  We're a strong healer.  We're strong enough elsewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Listen to the naysayers if you want.  I listen to myself and find my own facts.  I find ways where others say "can't be done".  While others say, "broken", I find out if it's true, and how badly.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why I play a Templar.  I know how strong we are and can be.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[mcavellero]

<DIV>A question to ponder is why do you spend so much of your time on the forum defending the class?  Furthermore, why are so many people complaining?  Is it a difficult class to play?  Are they balanced?  Perhaps the "templar" is the difficulty setting of very hard and you like challenges?  lol</DIV>

[Timaarit]

Well, if we do need a healer, it really doesn't matter which class it is (though when tanking with my monk, I do prefer anything else than a cleric). But as it is, it is the templars especially that dont like to play. In my guild, the inqusitors do like it because they have buffs that people actually want. Now a mitigation buff and health buff are nice. But they are really wasted on anyone other than the MT. Inqusitor dps buff is extremely usable by anyone. Templar healing is great, but you really can say that same thing about every other priest class. This leaves only the hardcore templars to play the class. My guild has 5 lvl 70 templars and only one of them is main. Out of the other healing classes, 8 out of 10 are mains. And personally I see no challenge in trying to be best of the worst. <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Bravo Tim.</P> <P>Bravo</P>

[Supernova17]

The grass is always greener, so move over. Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do. In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time. <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>The grass is always greener, so move over.<BR><BR>Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do.<BR><BR>In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it is just that AE situation I am worried about. I aim for harder content. No offense.

[Supernova17]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR>I aim for harder content. No offense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Orly? Like I don't?</P> <P>You might just recognize me...</P> <P><BR><IMG src="http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/170/cdcheerrk8.jpg"></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>The grass is always greener, so move over.<BR><BR>Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do.<BR><BR>In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it is just that AE situation I am worried about. I aim for harder content. No offense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>...and if you ARE hitting Nizara, you're doing it without a plate tank and Templar buffs?  </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Cowdenicus wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Supernova17 wrote:The grass is always greener, so move over.Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do.In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>it is just that AE situation I am worried about. I aim for harder content. No offense. <hr> </blockquote> <p>...and if you ARE hitting Nizara, you're doing it without a plate tank and Templar buffs?  </p> <hr></blockquote>Best choice for Nizara are bruiser, shaman and druid. We use guardian, mystic and fury. I know I know, low dps on tank <span>:smileytongue: In any case, defiler would buff health just as much as templar does. Our guardian is already at mitigation cap. And also druids are far superior healers than clerics in Nizara because the mobs are mostly mezzed and thus hit rarely but even harder. And you just have to have one druid for the AE's. Also I am there with my monk and parses show I am parrying 20% of the hits on mt (better than stoneskin). </span><div></div>

[Hopefulne]

<DIV> <DIV>Personally i like being a healer in plate swinging a weapon.  We buff HP more than any other class and reactives strike a nice balance between almost-a-ward and good mana efficency. Templars are a good example of heal specialization. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only problem i can see with the templar dps is the melee while spell-casting plate (spells require int and it is hard to find decent plate int. Relatively long casting spells can interupt melee dps. If u swap out to int gear u become softer to the mob you're hitting at arms reach and lose str) Other classes have similar problems but with the expected low dps it becomes a bigger issue.  Changing the smites so they were more in line with the AA line melee swings would benefit the class greatly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And how Timaarit could be beaten by a fury in a raid in a heal parse i do not know.  Even in the AE where fury can theoritically heal more than any other class.  Grp reactives and your grp direct heal +crit +heal procs should cure over half the real damage healing far more than the fury heals. Meanwhile the other procs (glory line, involuntary line, mark line) should have kicked in. Not to mention the 800 extra HP you provided each grp member probably saved the softer peeps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Timaarit]

Well I actually used to be on top before we got 2 shamans. Now they block most of the damage to MT and then the druid heals all the AE damage. Yes, my group reactive heals some of it but it usually has lost most of its procs already to the wards on MT. So there really isn't much for a <i>cleric</i> to heal on our raids. Shamans prevent most of the damage (2 shamans out of 6 healers do about 60% of our healing) and furies heal the AE damage which I can only attend with a small groupheal. As for involuntary, from the parses, I decided not to use that anymore. GoC, well, from now on I will use it only when in a group with no druid. Unfortunately I am usually in mt group so we have one. The health buff, last raid every one in mt group had almost 8k health while mt was at 13k. Didn't help much on memwipe. Yes, we wont raid without a least one templar. But there is no reason to get another. The thing is that even when I am the only cleric in raid, 2 shamans will be higher on the parse. Those times I can with the fury if there is another druid in raid. So one templar can beat druid if the druid splits healing with another one. But if there is only one shaman in raid, that shaman has been parsing 2 to 3 times as much healing as the 2nd highest healer. We are now running raids with 1 to 2 clerics, 2 to 3 druids and as many shamans as we can. If we have 7 or more healers, the extra cleric is the first to log to dps class. <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>The grass is always greener, so move over.<BR><BR>Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do.<BR><BR>In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it is just that AE situation I am worried about. I aim for harder content. No offense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>...and if you ARE hitting Nizara, you're doing it without a plate tank and Templar buffs?  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do Nizarra all the time, brought a Templar once, they usually ask me to bring my warlock instead. Templars just cant get the job done in that zone. TOO SLOW.

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>The grass is always greener, so move over.<BR><BR>Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do.<BR><BR>In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it is just that AE situation I am worried about. I aim for harder content. No offense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>...and if you ARE hitting Nizara, you're doing it without a plate tank and Templar buffs?  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not that templars offer anything required.</P> <P>Defilers will buff people as good if not better and have alot better debuffs to throw on the mobs.</P> <P>I am begining to think all I am at raids is a stoneskin bot. :smileyindifferent:<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>10-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>because besides slightly above average single target healing, lotto healing and stoneskin is what you are.</DIV>

[Sonaht]

<div></div>I have a Warden, Fury and Templar and find myself playing the Templar a lot more than the others because I go out most of the time in small groups or duo. While I find solo play tiresome with a healer... it takes sooooo long to kill the simplest thing, with proper gear I find that my Templar can withstand a direct assault from a triple up for a surprisingly long time. If I accidentally grab agro I can walk over to my tank and hand off the mob pretty easily, maybe loose health to yellow but not like my leather wearing healers who crumple almost immediatley under the same circumstances. I really enjoy being in the thick of the fighting. With my other healers I am mostly standing at range unless the encounter is trivial.Another way I approach fighting is not to rely on nuking and hitting for my fighting style... I go for stun, daze, interupt and debuff. On heals you have two basic kinds of reactives, one for health users and one for power users... really useful when the mage gets and drops agro... he probably isn't going to take any more melee damage in this situation but will continue using power so I can put the power one on him and get back to business. In a tough fight I can layer up reactives, curates and so on then go into the caster-rooted healing and come back out with a melee-based reactive renewal and the Big Heal still in my pocket for emergencies. If you're having trouble with Fizzles be sure you don't have Yaulp on and keep your Focus maxed out. Items that incr Focus are also nice. There are a couple of hammers that proc Divine damage and I like those either on the Zerker or for me (or both) when power isn't an issue. Mostly I don't look at myself as being separate from the team so I dont pay attention to my parser stats. What I do is so intricately woven into the group that I don't consider such things very meaningful. For power issues I use a power procing weapon and everything I can find that incr's my attack speed. Along with Flowing Thoughts, decent provisions, potions, totems and so forth this makes a big difference in a long fight.Personally I don't find my Monk all that interesting tho she is easy to play and can go just about anywhere she wants (that is suitable for solo play.) For a good time soloing I'll pick my Coercer any day. <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Hopefulne]

<DIV>/quote<BR>Well I actually used to be on top before we got 2 shamans. Now they block most of the damage to MT and then the druid heals all the AE damage. Yes, my group reactive heals some of it but it usually has lost most of its procs already to the wards on MT. So there really isn't much for a cleric to heal on our raids. Shamans prevent most of the damage (2 shamans out of 6 healers do about 60% of our healing) and furies heal the AE damage which I can only attend with a small groupheal.</DIV> <DIV>As for involuntary, from the parses, I decided not to use that anymore. GoC, well, from now on I will use it only when in a group with no druid. Unfortunately I am usually in mt group so we have one. The health buff, last raid every one in mt group had almost 8k health while mt was at 13k. Didn't help much on memwipe.</DIV> <DIV>Yes, we wont raid without a least one templar. But there is no reason to get another. The thing is that even when I am the only cleric in raid, 2 shamans will be higher on the parse. Those times I can with the fury if there is another druid in raid. So one templar can beat druid if the druid splits healing with another one. But if there is only one shaman in raid, that shaman has been parsing 2 to 3 times as much healing as the 2nd highest healer. We are now running raids with 1 to 2 clerics, 2 to 3 druids and as many shamans as we can. If we have 7 or more healers, the extra cleric is the first to log to dps class.<BR>/endquote</DIV> <DIV>From this I'm figuring:<BR>You don't keep your reactives refreshed?  I doubt even shamans would parse as high if they didn't.  Not to mention the spike damage -which you can handle better thank to focused intercession.<BR>Nor do you use Glory.  Procing a heal is more useful than the extra HP on non MT in my opinion and i always have at least one up. Considering that you also have 3 healers in your MT that doesn't leave much option for melee classes to put it on or classes with the increased grp casting speed or inc grp healcrit.<BR>Nor do you use involuntary. Currently debated in other threads it is a proc heal with can remove a trauma. It can proc on non grp members.<BR>A small grp heal?  The templar grp heal is equal to the defiler and bigger than the mystic group heals.</DIV> <DIV>If you're doing so little then one way to help would be to have 6 healers raid wide, 2 of them in the MT grp. Make sure there'a 2nd cleric out of the Mt grp and trade off single target heals and reactives. Or no Mt clerics. No harm in trying</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Hopefulness wrote: <div>From this I'm figuring:You don't keep your reactives refreshed?  I doubt even shamans would parse as high if they didn't.  Not to mention the spike damage -which you can handle better thank to focused intercession. <font color="#ffff00">And what exactly makes you think I dont? True, with FB I can block 1,4k damage from each hit. But 2 shamans can block over 3k from the first and then take turns on the single target wards. MT wont usually be hit often enough for the ward(s) to be down for more than 1 or 2 hits. Often I also have a choice to either use a reactive or direct heal, reactive was mainly consumed on smaller hits on the ward. Then spike damage occurs while casting dire intercession and fury heals it before I can get even one direct heal going. All the things just add up.</font> Nor do you use Glory.  Procing a heal is more useful than the extra HP on non MT in my opinion and i always have at least one up. <font color="#ffff00">Last raid Glory healed 3,6k zonewide on main tank. So I have been using it this far, it is the next raid I wont be using it.</font>  Considering that you also have 3 healers in your MT that doesn't leave much option for melee classes to put it on or classes with the increased grp casting speed or inc grp healcrit.Nor do you use involuntary. Currently debated in other threads it is a proc heal with can remove a trauma. It can proc on non grp members. <font color="#ffff00">Again this wont bring me any closer to the others on healing. </font> A small grp heal?  The templar grp heal is equal to the defiler and bigger than the mystic group heals. <font color="#ffff00">This is why the fury will parse so high. I didn't compare the heal to shamans but to the best in game.</font> </div> <div>If you're doing so little then one way to help would be to have 6 healers raid wide, 2 of them in the MT grp. Make sure there'a 2nd cleric out of the Mt grp and trade off single target heals and reactives. Or no Mt clerics. No harm in trying <font color="#ffff00">We use mt group cleric because of the stoneskin proc, health buffs and Shield Ally. My parses show SA to block roughly 3 to 4% of incoming hits.</font> <font color="#ffff00">Also reactives are very good heals despite the fact that they really dont work together with shamans. Last raid wards blocked 36% of all damage on mt (we had 8 healers with 2 shamans), reactives were 16% and HoT was 13%, the rest was from direct heals and procs. I have never said that a templar is useless in a raid, on the contrary, it is great to have one. </font></div><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Kizee]

<P>Tim is right.</P> <P>If you have a couple shamans on raid you can forget about parsing high...unless its a really long fight and you just outlast them since they are mana hogs.</P> <P>Most of the trash and fast named fights... forget it.</P> <P>Alot of the time I watch my reactives tick down without healing anything. I would love to know how much mana I waste because of wards. :smileyindifferent:</P>

[Kasias81]

<DIV>Well I love my Templar.  I may not be the best healer, or real good at anything else, but I pride myself on keeping my group alive, and all the other supportive things that I do for them.  I am appreciated in every group I'm in, and I enjoy the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my Templar.</DIV>

[Gokol]

I play a 70 templar on the vox server, great to use :smileyhappy:

[Hopefulne]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hopefulness wrote:<BR> <DIV>From this I'm figuring:<BR>You don't keep your reactives refreshed?  I doubt even shamans would parse as high if they didn't.  Not to mention the spike damage -which you can handle better thank to focused intercession.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>And what exactly makes you think I dont? True, with FB I can block 1,4k damage from each hit. But 2 shamans can block over 3k from the first and then take turns on the single target wards. MT wont usually be hit often enough for the ward(s) to be down for more than 1 or 2 hits. Often I also have a choice to either use a reactive or direct heal, reactive was mainly consumed on smaller hits on the ward. Then spike damage occurs while casting dire intercession and fury heals it before I can get even one direct heal going. All the things just add up.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>timaarit wrote</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Yes, my group reactive heals some of it but it usually has lost most of its procs already to the wards on MT  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>This statment means to me that you're letting your grp reactive lose all it's ticks before recasting. I usually start casting it when i'm down to 3 ticks or 7seconds left.  Yes this means it won't react to 6 peeps on an AE but keeps my mana healthy and guarentees some of my grp covered</FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>.  As for Focused Intercession (the level 70 version of focused benefaction-the spell you mentioned) it's main use on spike damage is that it heals for more per hit than your single target reactives and is faster casting, cheaper and has a longer duration  than your reactives or direct heals.  When your spike damage comes your shamans have the same choices all while the damage is coming-the mystic has a 2k ward with stun similar to your FI, But this is unlikely to cover the 5seconds til the defiler has their grp ward cast or heal them back into the green.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </P> <P><BR>Nor do you use Glory.  Procing a heal is more useful than the extra HP on non MT in my opinion and i always have at least one up.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Last raid Glory healed 3,6k zonewide on main tank. So I have been using it this far, it is the next raid I wont be using it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>As i said with 3 healers the options for a melee class to put glory on and see it proc is low.  Besides this glory is a grp heal.  Maybe it didn't proc when the grp had taken damage but then saying a grp heal didn't heal a single target much is an interesting twist.  How much did it heal zonewide?  What % of your total healing did it amount to?<BR></FONT><BR> Considering that you also have 3 healers in your MT that doesn't leave much option for melee classes to put it on or classes with the increased grp casting speed or inc grp healcrit.<BR>Nor do you use involuntary. Currently debated in other threads it is a proc heal with can remove a trauma. It can proc on non grp members.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Again this wont bring me any closer to the others on healing. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>An extra proc heal won't increase the amount you healed on the healing parse?<BR></FONT><BR>A small grp heal?  The templar grp heal is equal to the defiler and bigger than the mystic group heals.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>This is why the fury will parse so high. I didn't compare the heal to shamans but to the best in game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>So fury grp heals can reach the MT grp you're in when u have 2 shamans in it already?  Yes the fury grp HoT can heal 500 every 2 seconds and by the time you've cast your grp heal (3sec) and then switched to spot heal a raid friend with your big direct heal (3sec cast time)  they will have healed 2.5k per person (at best without crits when the grp HoT is precast) to their grp. Usually not enough to cover all the AE damage so your big DH will then heal for up to the 2k max.  Which is more healing to you so you'll parse higher.</FONT></P> <P>If you're doing so little then one way to help would be to have 6 healers raid wide, 2 of them in the MT grp. Make sure there'a 2nd cleric out of the Mt grp and trade off single target heals and reactives. Or no Mt clerics. No harm in trying<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>We use mt group cleric because of the stoneskin proc, health buffs and Shield Ally. My parses show SA to block roughly 3 to 4% of incoming hits.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Also reactives are very good heals despite the fact that they really dont work together with shamans. Last raid wards blocked 36% of all damage on mt (we had 8 healers with 2 shamans), reactives were 16% and HoT was 13%, the rest was from direct heals and procs.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>So take only 2 MT healers. 1 shaman and 1 templar.  My guild takes a defiler and a templar and the templar rarely parses less then the defiler.  As others have said within this thread, harder content makes the templar shine.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>As you (timaarit) said earlier in this thread</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Well I actually used to be on top before we got 2 shamans</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><BR>I have never said that a templar is useless in a raid, on the contrary, it is great to have one.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Whitemane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <P>Tim is right.</P> <P>If you have a couple shamans on raid you can forget about parsing high...unless its a really long fight and you just outlast them since they are mana hogs.</P> <P>Most of the trash and fast named fights... forget it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Then you are doing something wrong or have not upgraded your spells. I will always parse either #1 or #2 on the Heal Parses. We run with 5-6 Healers 2 Shaman ( defiler Mystic Fury Warden and me and either a second fury or a Inq depending on who shows up. Trash is kinda irrelevant though as it doesnt really require too much of anyones healing</FONT></P> <P>Alot of the time I watch my reactives tick down without healing anything. I would love to know how much mana I waste because of wards. :smileyindifferent:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Whitemane]

<P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Run Nizara fairly regular and I dont have a problem with it. If your templar is "Too slow" you need a better Templar Period. Funny if the speed of heals were that bad then Defilers are the #2 worst healer along with Templars as thier cast times are the same and cost health as well. ( I would love shorter cast times though )</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Personally I have to agree with Celestian if your Templar is getting out healed that badly and consistantly well by anyone then they just arent doing all that they could.  Zone wide it shouldnt be even close.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00><BR> </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>The grass is always greener, so move over.<BR><BR>Yeah I can do 500+ dps on raids, but I rarely get the chance because we don't make half the raid out of healers like some guilds do. Five to six healers is the average, with the max being 7-8 depending on the fight. I have other things to do.<BR><BR>In a group setup, no Fury in hell could out heal a Templar unless the group totally sucked hardcore with aggro all over the group or mobs with massive AOE's (Nizarra) because the heal order of operation won't allow it. Or the Templar just sucked, had a negative outlook on the class and afk'd / slacked off the entire time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it is just that AE situation I am worried about. I aim for harder content. No offense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>...and if you ARE hitting Nizara, you're doing it without a plate tank and Templar buffs? </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do Nizarra all the time, brought a Templar once, they usually ask me to bring my warlock instead. Templars just cant get the job done in that zone. TOO SLOW.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Whitemane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not that templars offer anything required.</P> <P>Defilers will buff people as good if not better and have alot better debuffs to throw on the mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Hehe actually 14 points less than a templar so we can call that a Draw Debuffs yup they got us there Same heals and cast times however</FONT></P> <P>I am begining to think all I am at raids is a stoneskin bot. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Nah you should parse either #1 or #2 ( barely behind the Defiler ) depending on "oppsies or Awwww's"</FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Kizee on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:50 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dragonreal]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hopefulness wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Hopefulness wrote:</blockquote><blockquote><p>A small grp heal?  The templar grp heal is equal to the defiler and bigger than the mystic group heals.<font color="#ffff00">This is why the fury will parse so high. I didn't compare the heal to shamans but to the best in game.</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">So fury grp heals can reach the MT grp you're in when u have 2 shamans in it already?  Yes the fury grp HoT can heal 500 every 2 seconds and by the time you've cast your grp heal (3sec) and then switched to spot heal a raid friend with your big direct heal (3sec cast time)  they will have healed 2.5k per person (at best without crits when the grp HoT is precast) to their grp. Usually not enough to cover all the AE damage so your big DH will then heal for up to the 2k max.  Which is more healing to you so you'll parse higher.</font></p></blockquote><blockquote><hr> </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>you're forgetting that furies also have a group direct heal that should be around 1kish (I'm a warden not a fury so I can only guess based off my heal numbers) and casts at 1.5s ntm they also have hibernation which is 1.1-1.3 or 1.4k if I remember right.. they just hav eot time it well. So pre-casted hibernation and grp regen + 1.5s for grp direct heal is going to take a fair chunk out of the amount of damage the grp has left on it.</div>

[Hopefulne]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>I've been making this argument for well over a year now, but if healing isn't needed, you're not hitting challenging enough content.  If you're "well geared" enough to "trivalize" the content, then stop using trivial content to make your arguments that healing isn't needed.  Switch from Den of the Devourer and Halls of Fate to Nektropos III and Nizara.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Exactly. But again, a templar is not required there, any 2 healers are sufficient. Also if you group with a shaman, a druid is far superior than a cleric. And this is because reactives have to be precast and the procs are lost on reactives while target is at full health and wards are holding. HoT's can be cast after target has taken damage and they will heal even when the mob is tunned and thus not attacking. Cleric is reduced to direct heals only.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Btw, Nek3 is a really trivial zone.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Yes any 2 healers are sufficent (by design a.k.a healing equality) and yes with a shaman the reactives don't achieve their full potency. However there are proc heals, (admittedly lotto) reverence, (Mt is going to continue using that power and it's cross raid) the fate line, (grp heal when the mob dies but most of den and halls have multi toon mobs) and divine arbitration (altho this spell uses HP numbers rather than % you could follow it with a grp heal for a boost)  Besides templar direct heals heal equal to defilers and more than any other class so not really much of a loss.  Inquis may have a problem but then they are still comparable to the other classes. Nek3 is easy once people know what they're doing but then templars can solo heal Halls of fate and i haven't heard of many other healing classes doing that until every1 in grp is fabled.<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P>Most Templar healing is wasted in general content.  You have to find harder content to truly shine as a Templar.  In general, typical, run-of-the-mill content any healer will work - that's the way the system's been designed.  At that point, yes, you'll want to find more DPS as well.  However, if you're in areas where you can pull entire rooms, then absolutely, you'll want to build your group around AE DPS.  This is not any different from putting together AE groups in classic Everquest:  no tank -  just 3-4 damage casters, an enchanter, a cleric, and maybe a bard all throwing AE stuns and damage spells to clear an area fast before moving to the next spawn.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why cleric? Pick up a fury and you will add 15 to 20% to groups DPS on the big fights. Cleric heals no better and has basically nonexistent dps there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>EQ1 example, EQ2 answer</FONT><BR></P> <P>That said, I'm pulling a great deal more than 150 damage in most groups...typically at least 4-500.  Based on your former and now current claims regarding your inability to pull in more than 2-300, I can't say I was terribly surprised to hear you feel our damage is low.  I know Illusionists that claim their class is broken when they can't pull in more than 2-300 DPS as well...then I group with a few of our Illusionists who pull in more than 800-1000 and wonder why the massive difference.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Well we dont take a paladin as DPS so why should we take a cleric? A fury will double that and heal just as well.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Beacuse templar are a healing class not a DPS class?  Yes cleric DPS is low and many people feel that fury's are overpowering.  As for your cleric DPS being low -your went sta/agi (guessing as you got shield ally and few are going to ignore the bonus heal crit)  so i can safely guess you have 100% melee crit.  However if you are getting higher melee DPS with blackscale than with the fable 2 hander you mention you have then you have the wrong weapon.  Personally Staff of the flapping wing (got it from a master in PoA but it also drop in AoA)  hammer of the dragonborn and vraksakin claw club (contested so doubtful if regualar peeps pick them up) should all push your DPS.  If you didn't go 100% melee crit you're probably better off with a higher damage rate weapon.   As for taking a pally?  well they can act as DPS, while also acting in the stead of a 2nd healer, and increase your DPS thro buffs and divine debuffs.</FONT></P> <P>Honestly, if you're so well geared you're trivializing content, why can't you pull in anything close to the DPS my modestly geared Templar does?  Am I some sort of anamoly?  Am I an exception to the rule?  Or is it me at all?  Is it possible that the problem in this specific equation has nothing to do with me or even with the class?  Is it the class...or the player?</P> <P>I don't know.  You tell me.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I dont know. I have used the exact sequence mentioned on these boards with fully specced to DPS lines, 350str, 250int and blackscale maul. My DPS varied from 200 to 500 on solo basilisks. 200 when they used some debuff on me and 500 with hammer pet and 0 misses.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Maybe I cant play a dps role on the templar, using those 4 buttons in a row can be really hard.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Hmm, now one thing came to my mind, maybe it is a timing issue. The maul has 8s delay, with the FBSS and Yaulp, the delay is 5,2s. I cast spells every 2,5s. This means I will effectively be hitting every 7,5s with the maul since when spamming I will just start casting before a hit is due. And when I try to wait, I will miss casting time. Lag from net doesn't help. But spamming spells means losing about 30% of the autoattack damage.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Now I haven't tried soloing nor grouping after I got the gloves from MoA trial from a friend, those lower the delay to under 5s thus adding that 30% to autoattack dps. Which would mean beating 200dps with the maul and yaulp and adding 150+ more when nuking too.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Can i ask how you got 5.2 delay?  i figure you would need 53% haste for that and 60% haste to get it under 5 so your spells won't damage your melee DPS.  Checking my toon FBSS and yaulp puts the BS maul delay at 5.9.  Doing some math to check suggests you did </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>delay -(delay*haste%)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>when you should have done</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>delay /(1+haste%)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#66ff00>for calculating your delay. </FONT></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now I can say for certain that 400dps is definately not enough to justify me to play the templar again. Like said, it will drain power really fast and 10% more dps to a group on trivial mobs isn't really that helpful. The thing is that clerics have too weak nukes with far too short recasts. This means we can either nuke or heal. Bigger nukes with longer recasts would not increase the dps but it would enable us to heal and nuke.<BR><BR>Also the issue about lower level cleric dps still remains. That is really crappy in comparison till you can get to 60's with 30+ AA's and the maul. So increase in the relative power of the nukes and decrease in aa dps is needed.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I never really had a problem with yaulp/smiting draining power (outside of a duel) If i go below 40% i switch it for a while. FT gear is really rather easy to get hold of in T7.  Despite this i have to agree that clerics DPS needs to be looked at by the developers.  Personally the problem is that cleric DPS is damaged by having spells and melee damage in equal proportion yet increasing str and int is difficult without using lighter armour.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Hopefulness on <span class=date_text>11-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 PM</span>

[Hopefulne]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you're forgetting that furies also have a group direct heal that should be around 1kish (I'm a warden not a fury so I can only guess based off my heal numbers) and casts at 1.5s ntm they also have hibernation which is 1.1-1.3 or 1.4k if I remember right.. they just hav eot time it well. So pre-casted hibernation and grp regen + 1.5s for grp direct heal is going to take a fair chunk out of the amount of damage the grp has left on it.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Erm i was including the fury grp direct heal but not hibernation <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Assumming they have owl's reparation M1 precast (500 instantly and every 2sec) and cast shield of the untamed M1 ( as you say 1.5 to cast healing grp for 900) Hibernation has a 10sec duration before healing and is unlikely to have been precast unless you have managed to time the AE</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>The 3.5 cast and recovery on word of reparation (temp grp heal) followed by say, .5sec? targeting a raidee and casting grand restoration  (3sec cast to heal 1760 at M1 tho i think most would take as a M2 option. also +75 on it if you are lucky to get the relic greaves) means that 7 seconds have past.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>So in those 7 seconds the fury will have healed 2.4k to the grp AT BEST, with an addition grp 1.4k for hibernation (assuming precast 4 sec b4 the AE) Maybe they have healed at best 2 other peeps with the spare 5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Regardless it is doubtful that there would be 1 fury in each other grp of a 24 peep raid</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>(all numbers curtesy of the EQ2 item database and taking the average of the heal /wink ) </FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Hopefulness on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:11 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Hopefulness on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:16 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hopefulness on <span class=date_text>11-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Hopefulness wrote:<div><blockquote> <><font color="#66ff00">This statment means to me that you're letting your grp reactive lose all it's ticks before recasting</font> <font color="#ffff00"></font><> <p><font color="#66ff00">As i said with 3 healers the options for a melee class to put glory on and see it proc is low.  Besides this glory is a grp heal.  Maybe it didn't proc when the grp had taken damage but then saying a grp heal didn't heal a single target much is an interesting twist.  How much did it heal zonewide?  What % of your total healing did it amount to?</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">An extra proc heal won't increase the amount you healed on the healing parse?</font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00">So fury grp heals can reach the MT grp you're in when u have 2 shamans in it already?  </font></p></blockquote> <blockquote><font color="#ffff00"></font> <div><font color="#66ff00">So take only 2 MT healers. 1 shaman and 1 templar.  My guild takes a defiler and a templar and the templar rarely parses less then the defiler.  As others have said within this thread, harder content makes the templar shine.</font></div> <div><font color="#66ff00">As you (timaarit) said earlier in this thread</font></div> <div><font color="#66ff00">Well I actually used to be on top before we got 2 shamans</font></div><hr> </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>1st, no, I do not, I recast them as soon as possible. I have Glory cast on mt (zerker) and a dirge. Involuntary heals under 1% of total mt heals on any raidzone. Glory heals 2 to 3% on MT but has been up to 16% of my total heals when there has been no fury in my group (I propably wasn't in mt group that time though). Usually involuntary is about 1% of my total healing and Glory is 2 to 5%. The fury is in mt group so the group heal really extends there. That fury is assigned to keep group HoT up at all times while another fury keeps up the single target HoT. Same goes to me if there is another cleric, I use group reactive and focused benefaction while the other keeps up single target reactive (and the shamans arrange the same way). In these cases, reactives heal twice as much as HoT's and wards heal 2 to 3 times as much as reactives. Why take only 2? Why risk death of mt group by taking away the best group heals? Yes, we use a cleric and shaman on MT group occasionalle when we need extra hate or power regen on mt and know that there are no AE's. And yes, I used to top the parses. That really was when we had at best one shaman on raids. Now we often have 3. With 1 shaman, the potential of the wards is not high enough to block reactives. Thus I usually got get 4/5 procs from single reactive and 8/9 procs from the group reactive. Sometimes I lost none. Now I lose way over half on average. There has been fights where all my healing came from Mark line because no one in mt group was damaged over the wards.<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kizee wrote: <div></div> <p>Tim is right.</p> <p>If you have a couple shamans on raid you can forget about parsing high...unless its a really long fight and you just outlast them since they are mana hogs.</p> <p>Most of the trash and fast named fights... forget it.</p> <p><font color="#ffcc00">Then you are doing something wrong or have not upgraded your spells. I will always parse either #1 or #2 on the Heal Parses. We run with 5-6 Healers 2 Shaman ( defiler Mystic Fury Warden and me and either a second fury or a Inq depending on who shows up. Trash is kinda irrelevant though as it doesnt really require too much of anyones healing</font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Or then your shamans are bad or dont have their spells upgraded. If a shaman knows how to play, there is nothing anyone can do to improve their healing. This is all due to the order of healing. Shamans first, then clerics and then druids. If shaman blocks most of the damage, it really doesn't matter how well you play your class. Same happens to the druids, if shaman and cleric know how to heal, they dont have much more to do than healing the AE's and occasional spikes. Now if there are no AE's, then druids will parse very low on raids.<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hopefulness wrote:<hr></blockquote>About Nek3. Last night we did it with my monk tanking and a shaman healing in a group of 5. No way a templar could have kept me alive since I got hit for roughly 30% of my health (which was 9,6k) every now and then on one of the fights. A single healer + a plate tank makes the zone almost a joke. But it can be done with one healer easily. HoF is a joke and has been done with paladin or necro solo healing. As for the haste issue, I suppose you have it right, 50% haste means 25% faster swinging so the gloves wont help. As for FT, I am already capped at equipment side. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[Hopefulne]

<P>timaarit wrote</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The fury is in mt group so the group heal really extends there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>My apologies i read one of your previous post that you had 2 shamans in the MT grp.  However even with a fury in the MT grp they have healed 2k AT BEST by the time your grp heal kicks in your reactive has ticked you've have healed the grp for 1.9k (assumming both average heals from M1 spells)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1st, no, I do not, I recast them as soon as possible</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Then how do most of the grp reactive ticks get used on MT and when the AE hits?  You say you recast asap but the reactives rarely proc on an AE</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I have Glory cast on mt (zerker) and a dirge</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffff00>Glory heals 2 to 3% on MT but has been up to 16% of my total heals when there has been no fury in my group. (I propably wasn't in mt group that time though</FONT>)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Ok.  Free proc heals from 2 peeps. %age went up when you were in an off grp with no fury. Either way the 2-3% of your healing being free is not a bad thing. Don't see why you're gonna stop using it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why take only 2? Why risk death of mt group by taking away the best group heals?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>But as you said little damage is overflowing the wards.  Also you say reactives absorb damage before the HoT.  How should these best grp heals be saving the group when your reactives seem unable to?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes, we use a cleric and shaman on MT group occasionally when we need extra hate or power regen on mt and know that there are no AE's.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>So you only take the fury in the MT when you know there is no AE? and yet your reactives barely tick to the AE?  So how does the fury heal when your reactive doesn't because the ward has absorbed it?  Overflow damage activates the reactive and there <EM>may</EM> be some damage for the HoT to heal.  HOW does the fury out parse you in either of these situations?</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>About Nek3. Last night we did it with my monk tanking and a shaman healing in a group of 5. No way a templar could have kept me alive since I got hit for roughly 30% of my health (which was 9,6k) every now and then on one of the fights.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>So every once in a while you were getting hit for 3k?  after reactives this is 2.3. After a grand restoration this is 400.  Not to mention the passive buffs adding to the monk survivability.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>HoF is a joke and has been done with paladin or necro solo healing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>yes this is true but before the fabled gear?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for the haste issue, I suppose you have it right, 50% haste means 25% faster swinging so the gloves wont help.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>No 50% haste equals 33.3% more swinging. Yaulp plus the gauntlets of glourious speed means 42% haste.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

Fury is in mt group because of the AE's that are bound to happen especially with nameds. Why bother moving people around for trash. Sigh, things generally go so that I cast reactive(s), ward is up and target gets hit one or more times and thus reactives lose procs. Then wards can go down or someone else recasts them. In first case, the damage can small or high, if I lost lots of procs, it is usually small, nothing to heal for a fury, if it is big, reactives heal some and HoT's the rest. But wards have so far absorbed 5 to 10 times as much damage as my reactives have healed. Now with 2 shamans, the wards are up very fast thus again blocking reactives. Nothing I can do to imrove my healing short of kicking the shamans from raid. I will stop using Glory partly, I will keep it on MT but will cast the health/melee buff on the dirge from now on. And about the cleric-shaman, please read again. We use 2 healers when we know there are no AE's and we use 3 when we know there are. I start to feel you are misreading these on purpose since the conclusions you make are really bizarre. <div></div>

[Aislia]

<div></div>I started out on the najena server as a druid at launch.  To make a long story short, I hated it.  Guild decided to switch servers after a week on najena, which gave me the chance to roll a different healing class.  I chose templar.  Best choice I ever made despite what anyone else says.  side note: I consistently continue to be the #1 or #2 healer on our raid parses.  I only lose out to the defiler, if I do,  /shrug, big effing deal.  Nothing to lose sleep over. Besides the smelly troll has to win some times or he whines and it hurts my ears in vent.   I've successfully completed Nizara more times than I feel like counting with a guardian, templar, druid (either fury or warden), coercer, <insert whatever class here>, <insert whatever class here> line up.  Nizara is NOT hard and as a templar it should be fairly easy, healing wise.   Parsing #1 or #2 on a raid is not hard. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Aislia on <span class=date_text>11-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[Sonaht]

If the mobs are so easy my reactive are running out unused I drop Glory, add another Holy Redoubt, switch on Yaulp and do some Skull Cracking. If that's too easy, I pull out my great hammer/tankin' armor and have some fun.<div></div>

[Olivet]

my original character was a crusader... got him to lvl 19 then canned him due to low dps.  then created a wizard and played him to lvl 55 .. got sick of dying when a mob farts in my direction.. so i created something that can wear plte armour AND heal. tadaa. templars ftw<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>I wanted to play a plate healer.  That simple.  Though I did consider a mystic for a bit.</P> <P>So far, I've not been disappointed.</P>

[Hada]

<DIV>To answer the original question. For me it was the rping aspect. A dwarf who needed a place to hide from from a high placed father who didn't like a certain dwarf around his daughter. The clergy offered the place to hide. It seems ale fuels this cleric and a hatred of undid. Sorry Negroes. I played a cleric in eq1 for years and is my main in eq2. I don't like the aspect of the cleric or any healer being a considered support unit in a group as seen in some posts. A healers skills can establish what level of nasties a group can get into and the survival of the group(as can any other group member). We have a great position to keep track of how a group operates together and the overall battle situation. Imho at times we become the groups leader because of our place in the group. For example. How many times have we all had to settle down two mighty tanks who get into a taunting war or over zealous nuker and make ya split your healing duties. I'm talking about when its a group in a place where everyone has to work and team work is important for the survival of everyone. Bah! I'm starting to ramble. Anyways my point is I like responsibilty  of our spot in the group/raid and the benni's we bring with our abilities. We keep peeps alive and there nothing funnier than a heck of a fight when yer tossin heals like mad and everyone goes WOW! That was close and fun as heck. Manna break plz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hadark 70 Templar Guk</DIV>

[Moonsoldier]

<DIV>Angry templars, angry templars! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a templar because I like being a healer, and a plate-healer can charge into raid melee and combat-rez like a Pally without worrying too much about being splattered.  I don't worry about my raid DPS (which varies from 0-200) or my DPS in general.  I like being fast and efficient at healing and curing and also at living through AoE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've also always played templars/clerics in MMO's, it is in the blood.  All the green healthbars are belong to me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[StevusX]

<P>I have been playing a templar for over 18 months now </P> <P>and the only time i haven't liked it was for a little while after LU13 - but then a fair few classes hurt then as well.</P> <P>I love being a plate wearing healer with high resists that can stand up and take a hit or two and survive. </P> <P>That helps a LOT when all the whatname hits the fan and i'm the only healer left standing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Been in many many PuGs all over the place. Never had any complaints that i couldnt heal - and i've had monks as tanks as well.</P> <P>Sure, sometimes its been tough, and sometimes i've been the reason the group did NOT wipe. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>The good times far outweigh the odd occasion when i played poorly.</P> <P>In parsed guild raids to date (casual guild so not that many)  i have always come 1st or 2nd although as people have pointed out that doesnt necessarily mean that much. Its partly cos i'm generally in the MT group. </P> <P>We have a lot of different tools to use as a templar. It makes it interesting and fun. </P> <P>Our class does take thought and practice to play well and when we do we are a match for any other healer.</P> <P>Have i ever felt useless or a burden in a group or raid ?  Only when there have been too many healers for the content we were doing. But the same applies if you have surplus tanks or any other type not just to us.</P> <P>Play a templar. Keep your people alive and have fun.</P> <P> </P>

[Urth]

<P>I wasn't able to complete the predator's way quest :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[RipFlex]

<P>It boggles the mind why cleric players even bother looking at healing parses when there's shamans in the group/raids ?  You know most the healing blocked when they are around to skew the real results?  *shrug*</P> <P>It's nice to have 6K resists now and plate and be right up with the MT hile everyone else needs to joust... we are just that tough vs them nasty AEs.</P> <P>I mainly just group with my Templar though, I feel like soloing I play my Monk... but I wish soloing writs was less painful for my Templar...</P> <P>Just glad my Templar and Monk are two most requested toons friends ask for when I log on.. they are my 2 favourites <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

Funny, if templars should not look at parses when there are shamans in group and druids should not look at parses when there are clerics in group, then how can anyone say that templars are good healers? In any case, last time I was with my templar in Nek3, we had a swashy in mastercrafted armor tanking it and also a shaman. The shaman practically solohealed the whole zone. Next time I was in there with my monk as tank (fully fabled, means higher mitigation and avoidance than what the swashy had) and a templar (somewhat in raidgear) as only healer and there were some serious issues with keeping me alive. <div></div>

[RipFlex]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Funny, if templars should not look at parses when there are shamans in group and druids should not look at parses when there are clerics in group, then how can anyone say that templars are good healers?<BR><BR>In any case, last time I was with my templar in Nek3, we had a swashy in mastercrafted armor tanking it and also a shaman. The shaman practically solohealed the whole zone. Next time I was in there with my monk as tank (fully fabled, means higher mitigation and avoidance than what the swashy had) and a templar (somewhat in raidgear) as only healer and there were some serious issues with keeping me alive.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1. Cleric are for healing Plate Tanks best.</P> <P>2. Shamans are best for Brawlers.</P> <P>3. Templare a poor player reguardless of raid gear, any healer can follow about and heal in a raid of 5-6 other healers.  Cycle healing braindead work, it's when crap hit the fan and mad healing skills come into play.</P> <P>I myself can be solo healer in any Heroic Instance with few problems at all and I only have Legendary gear and a couple Master I spells (Templar spells are few and expensive on broker).  The fact remains I hardly need to heal a Plate tank most the time I cure and debuff, unless he "accidently" pulls the room... then I have to actually work.  I have a Monk and I tank an Underconned named called Scroll-bearer green conned and sometimes I get Popped for no reason at all and die, and other times I take no damage at all and kill him... unpredictability.</P> <P>Shaman - Brawler</P> <P>Cleric - Warrior</P> <P>Druid - Everyone else</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>RipFlex wrote:<div>1. Cleric are for healing Plate Tanks best.</div> <p>2. Shamans are best for Brawlers.</p><hr></blockquote>Um no. 1. clerics are best at healing plate tanks 2. for brawlers, shamans are best But clerics are not the best for healing plate tanks, any healing class can do that basically with equal ease. The disparuty comes when the tank is actually hit slower than once for each 1,6 seconds. Clerical heals are optimal when hits are coming once per 1,6s or faster. This means reactives are consumed within the recasts. With avoidance tanks, you can clearly see this not happening. It is fairly rare even with plate tanks. My templar can recast the single target reactive as soon as the recast is up only when fighting groups. And on those the hits are so weak that I usually dont cast it immediately because the healing is wasted. On single targets the hits are coming so rarely that often the group reactive will not proc 9 times in 30 seconds. This means loss of about 20 to 30% in templar total healing potential. But with nameds, the hits are so powerful that I need to use my direct heals. This is where druids especially are better. They have their HoT's and direct heals healing at full power while reactives have lots of unused capacity. And this is also when healing is really needed. <div></div>

[Kasias81]

<DIV>Wow, this thread has really blown up!  I really didn't intend for the post to head to the "which is the best healer / Templars are nerfed" direction.  I just simply wanted to know what made all of you decide to play a templar.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never played another healer class, I have no interest in playing another healer class, I am -through and through- a pure HEALER, I want to assist my groupmates / raid party with staying alive.  I have no real desire to "dps" or anything like it.  I want to support my group/raid, keep them alive for as long as I possibly can, and have a great time doing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I look forward to grouping/raiding again once the "newness of EoF" calms down and people return to their mains again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my Templar, I enjoy playing this game.</DIV>

[Khayjames]

The reason is, I was a Paladin in EQ1. I would sit LFG for days at a time while the entire server begged for healers. I like to play the game when I log in so I built a healer in EQ2.<div></div>

[ParlMoebius]

<DIV>I havent posted in a while, and generally try to keep to a pleasant tone.  But I'm freakin sick of this argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Im not mistaken, the post was about why we Templars play our class.  Not about why you retired your templar.  Not about why you think your fury or shaman or any other class is better.  So back the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off.  Go start a thread in one of those class boards about how much you like your class, and how much it own those stupid templars who keep playing their toons even though theyre the most pointless class in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my templar.  I play him because I enjoy it, and have always played this type of class.  I like being in demand (if a group is going to pass me by because theyd rather not have a templar, then guess what?  I dont want to group with them.  simple as that).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like when I get compliments, more than I can count anymore, regarding how well I healed, or my power efficiency, or that I've 'restored someones faith' in the class.  I dont care about numbers, theyre situational, and, as long as there is a human element involved (ie; the players), theyre going to be subjective as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like being able to fire off debuff, stun, stifle, proc heals, and juggling the reactives with my direct heals, getting it down to as precision a balancing act as I can.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like small groups, which we can heal exceptionally well.  I like challenging fights, fights that you cant always tell whether you will win or not, where its down the wire.  You dont have to raid to get this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No we arent the best solo class, or the highest dps class, and if we dont parse as high on dps or healing... who cares?  </DIV> <DIV>I play my Templar for none of those reasons.</DIV>

[Fuzzey]

<div><blockquote><hr>ParlMoebius wrote: "Just because I'm a blind drunken halfling... don't think I won't smite the hell out of your kneecaps"<hr></blockquote>[Removed for Content]! Spoken like a true Templar! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Remann]

<P>For me, my Templar was by mistake.  When going to through the now non existent class selection quests, I chose the wrong one, wanted to be fury.  Instead of rerolling and choosing fury, I stayed with the Templar because it is a plate class and I liked the reactives.  Although I truly like the shaman classes for their wards, chain doesn't stand up as well as plate does.  Also my templar looks good in plate armor.  Named after my daughter and being a human, she does look good in that plate.</P> <P>I sometimes have a great deal of trouble which character to play, Rebbeka my templar or Noneya my Assassin.  Usually I leave it up to my fellow friends and guild mates to let me know what is needed more.  The heavy dps or the much needed healing.</P>

[rivj0r]

I have a 70 templar, didn't get their long ago. Originally I rolled this, after about a half dozen character type tests, to be the healer for duo adventuring with my guildmates guardian. I already had a zerker and him a templar. Many months later it became apparent that we had defaulted to him tanking and me healing so my templar has the most usage of my characters. I don't think the templar class is particularly fun. Its certainly not bad, but other classes I play are more enjoyable. Especially when trying to solo. Yikes. In terms of effectiveness, templar is great. I save tank bacon well enough to get regular invites. Its generally a nice class if you want to group. People will take a templar that is pretty far below the group level average and that really helps you get around and level yourself. So yeah... For me, it just happened that way.<div></div>

[PhroZenAssassin]

Because Templar > Inquistor still <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[HilstonPols]

<P>First toon was a Conjurer, but friends wanted to start evil alts and persuaded me to make a healer.  I hated the look of most evil classes so chose a Barb and went Cleric cos I am an old EQ1 player and Clerics rocked.  The evil group fell apart and I joined with my guild which was Qeynos based so betrayed.  This was without a shadow of a doubt my best gaming decision.  I ended up with a Templar and I simply love to play him.  I could not give a monkeys about DPS, I love being stuck in the middle of the combat slinging heals and cures around.  The comments I get from people at all levels "wow, how did you keep us all alive there" "wow, thought I was a goner there thanks", all this makes me want to play my Templar more.  Raids are always different to groups, single groups have more options to recover a bad pull imo, when Raids go wrong then all hell breaks loose and very soon it's revive time.  Don't get me wrong I love to raid and try my damnest to keep people standing and fighting but my first love is dungeon crawling in a full group and being the plate-wearing life saver.</P> <P> </P> <P>Recently on my guilds first run in Freethinkers I was asked why I was not running in and out of the AE with the leather clad brigade, <FONT color=#ffff00 size=5><EM><STRONG>"because I'm a Templar, thats' what I do"</STRONG></EM></FONT> was my reply!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Bewts]

Because trying to validate a third brawler (monk) to min/maxx guilds for DPS purposes is hard to do - everyone can use a competent healer.<div></div>