Combat changes: How does this affect Templars?

[Kendricke]

Let's run down the announcement recently made by Gallenite, and point out the areas which directly affect Templars:<b><ul><li>Maximum mitigation/resistance numbers for current level has been increased from [ Level * 80 ] to [ Level * 150 ]</li></ul></b>Resistances and mitigation has increased dramatically. In addition to affecting us defensively (along with everyone else), it makes spell lines such as our "Shielding Faith/Aegis of Faith" more important. Any blessings or buffs we can cast that increase resistances or armor will be even more valued.<b><ul><li>All stat cap maximums have been increased from [ 7 * Level + 20 ] to [ 15 * level + 20 ]</li><li>The maximum benefit that each stat provides, including power pool size, has been increased</li></ul></b>If you'd found yourself passing over WIS gear because you were already capped, it might be time to start looking into it again...especially with the increases to resistance caps as well.<b><ul><li>[Casting] Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]</li><li>Actual hostile spell resistance modification has increased from -10% to -20% at maximum</li></ul></b>Offensive spell casting just got more effective...<b><ul><li>Beneficial spells that use casting skill, mostly affecting ministration, have their power costs reduced with increased skill</li></ul></b>Heal spell casting just got more efficient...<b><ul><li>Fizzle nevermore! The entire Fizzle mechanic has been removed</li></ul></b>All spell casting just got a lot more fun!<b><ul><li>[Focus] Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]</li><li>Focus has a maximum 20% instead of 10% to prevent damage interrupts</li><li>Focus Skill also mitigates the chance of spell based Interrupts, Stifle, and Stun Effects from interrupting a spell that is already casting</li></ul></b>Focus just became more important to us. You might actually see Templars changing achievements to increase Focus if they feel they're interrupted too often<b><ul><li></li>[Attack] Skill caps have increased from [ 1 * Level ] to [ 1.5 * Level ]</ul></b>Melee based Templars should find that increasing their attack related skills should help more (expect to see more value placed on this aspect of Redoubt line).<b><ul><li>Attack speed and DPS caps have increased to 200%</li><li>Uses a diminishing returns curve to determine the actual amount of attackspeed and DPS modification, which caps out at 125% actual modification when reaching the cap</li></ul></b>This will likely not have that great an effect on soloing or raiding Templars. However, Templars in the right groups or with the right gear will now be able to increase their melee effectiveness. It's quite possible we'll start to see some 1000+DPS melee battle clerics with some of the better equipped Templars and Inquisitors joining the right groups.At least, that's my observations so far.

[Kizee]

<P>Are there enough of us left to even care? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I think the changes help the shaman classes more since their stat buffs won't be wasted anymore.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> It's quite possible we'll start to see some 1000+DPS melee battle clerics with some of the better equipped Templars and Inquisitors joining the right groups.<BR><BR>At least, that's my observations so far.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/shudder</P> <P>Yay, gotta love clerics that wade into battle and forget to heal.  Thought I left that behind in EQ1. :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Shouldn't have all this been taken care of when they did the combat revamp? Why do they keep changing all the rules and turning the game upside down?</P><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 AM</span>

[StevusX]

<P>I "wade into battle" next to the tank as much as possible, i am a plate wearing guy after all with reasonably high mitigation.</P> <P>BUT i never forget to heal - and if necessary will back off with the rest of the cloth/leather wearers. But i CAN stand with the tank and survive !</P> <P>As to the proposed changes - they sound overall very good.</P> <P>One or two concerns - mainly to do with the fact that it looks like anyone around the current cap will initially take a nerf until they upgrade.  But i can except that for the longer term gains.</P> <P>Some of the mitigation / avoidance changes i'm not entirely sure how they will pan out - given that the dev stated that its in beta so they can "change the numbers" based on testing i dont think anyone can make too much of this at present.</P> <P>I wish SOE would post like this much more often - it would really stop a lot of the supposition going around etc.</P> <P> </P>

[RingleToo]

First thing I did after reading about the changes to combat mechanics was scratch my head and go "huh?". Then I rushed over here to the templar forum knoowing someone would post a "Combat Mechanics for Dummies" for people like me :smileyvery-happy: Ok, I'm not really that dense, but  thanks, Kendricke for the quick and easy "re-cap".

[Eriol]

I'm disappointed that there was no mention of tying mitigation to interrupt rate (at Fan Faire they said they'd be doing that as a way of dealing with our high interrupt rate while soloing), but otherwise, I agree with Ken that this is overall a positive change.I'd also look in the dev tracker, as there's a post there that has a graph that fairly clearly IMO represents how the mitigation curve looks now, and how it WILL look later.

[Dillin]

<blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:I'm disappointed that there was no mention of tying mitigation to interrupt rate (at Fan Faire they said they'd be doing that as a way of dealing with our high interrupt rate while soloing), but otherwise, I agree with Ken that this is overall a positive change.I'd also look in the dev tracker, as there's a post there that has a graph that fairly clearly IMO represents how the mitigation curve looks now, and how it WILL look later.<hr></blockquote>Well, they did increase the percentage that interupts can be reduced by. I guess it's the price we pay for wearing plate. At least it won't be as bad. Although I'm curious what other healer classes pay for being able to use other damage types (Druids get slashing, shamans get piercing). I can't tell you how frustrating it is that I have to switch weapons on my Warden because the Shadowy Acolyte is suppose to be immune to crushing much less the frustration our Templars go through because all they can do is cast "nukes" that are underpowered as it is.<p>Message Edited by Cybst0rm on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[Archill]

<b><b>Beneficial spells that use casting skill, mostly affecting ministration, have their power costs reduced with increased skill..</b></b>this was my favorite line.Anyway this change needed to happen.. otherwise we'd have another kunark/velious on our hands.<div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

The loss of the Fizzle is the single greatest news since that uh thing that happened. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The loss of the Fizzle may be the 'proof' that it was indeed broken and even they couldn't figure out how to fix it. LOL!The changes to mitigation were interesting. I want to wade in with my tank and melee dps, but too many times i get one shotted, even though i have the same mitigation as the tank or close to it. (I know i shouldn't be grouping with a tank that has the same mit as me, but PUGs are PUGs <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )<p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Whitemane]

<P>I like them. And as it stands they seem like they would be a pretty good benefit to Templars   as it stands right now I can get to around 600 wisdom slf buffed which does me no good but some added resists that I can easily get elsewhere I was kinda wondering what they were going to do in EoF for progression as the system didnt really leave much room for it at all. </P> <P>Also this: <STRONG>Beneficial spells that use casting skill, mostly affecting ministration, have their power costs reduced with increased skill WOOOHOOO</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Finally Ministration means something yay!</STRONG></P> <P>I'll wait and see the final version before I pronounce judgement. All in all though it seems pretty good and needed to me.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted</P><p>Message Edited by Whitemane on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Kizee]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR>The loss of the Fizzle is the single greatest news since that uh thing that happened. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>The loss of the Fizzle may be the 'proof' that it was indeed broken and even they couldn't figure out how to fix it. LOL!<BR><BR>The changes to mitigation were interesting. I want to wade in with my tank and melee dps, but too many times i get one shotted, even though i have the same mitigation as the tank or close to it. (I know i shouldn't be grouping with a tank that has the same mit as me, but PUGs are PUGs <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) <P>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <SPAN class=date_text>09-29-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:15 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, the loss of the fizzles is great. I was very happy when I read that. Nothing worse than hearing "you gotta cure those traumas fast (after raid whipes)" ... I'm like no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but kinda hard to when you fizzle 4x in a row. :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From how little we benifit off of the spell haste and crit AA's I bet you will need to put like +100 points (in items) into a skill to get a point of power reduction. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[EQAditu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:Resistances and mitigation has increased dramatically. In addition to affecting us defensively (along with everyone else), it makes spell lines such as our "Shielding Faith/Aegis of Faith" more important. Any blessings or buffs we can cast that increase resistances or armor will be even more valued.<hr></blockquote>I couldn't help picking fun at this because of how little I see us able to use these spells<i>(temp arcane mitigation/wards)</i> in PVE.  Sure... I can think of maybe a few mobs I can cast this for... but I only see one of them on a weekly basis.  So many trash mobs in KoS use elemental AEs for large numbers... forget about boss mobs.  Noxious was more common in previous expansions, I think... but it still shows up about as much or more than arcane mob spells.  I keep wishing for the day that arcane resistances on items will actually make people think about getting them. Too many arcane effects are control effects and therefore don't mitigate, only rarely resist.  I see 900 divine mitigation on an item and laugh at the futility. <hr size="2" width="100%">Now for what I really was curious about, I guess you could say.  We all know that we're the only priest class that not only cares about rate of incoming damage, but the rate of incoming hits.  Reading around some, it seemed to suggest that avoidance <i>numbers</i> will be lower.  Technically good for reactives, I guess.  But the actual resulting avoidance from those lower numbers will be higher(for raid mobs).  So which do you think it will be for us?(if you had to choose one)  Better for reactives, or worse for reactives?  Do you suppose SoE even for a second considered how the changes would affect reactive healing? <span>:smileytongue:  Sorry if I'm a pessimist by heart.</span><div></div>

[Raistlan]

Hmmm, so it looks like they are nerfing our relative mitigation values to druids and shamans, not sure what's happening with avoidance, but not giving plate a bonus to interrupt mitigation?  We're still going to be interrupted like hell, especially considering we have the longest cast times.<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:Hmmm, so it looks like they are nerfing our relative mitigation values to druids and shamans, not sure what's happening with avoidance, but not giving plate a bonus to interrupt mitigation?  We're still going to be interrupted like hell, especially considering we have the longest cast times.<div></div><hr></blockquote>What I read is that base parry and deflection are going to be lowered and avoidance will actually work. So if they are not making plate mitigate interrupts, wearing plate will really be a burden for templars. This is because hits can then actually be avoided with the rate that avoidance shows and that avoidance is effectively the number that reduces interrupts. On the other hand mitigation at the levels where priests are, will be changed so that druid mitigation is much closer to cleric mitigatiom. After all, the purpose is to give low mitigation enough power to prevent oneshots, that is what has been confirmed. So IF mitigation has no effect on interrupts, our time as combat healers is over and it is time to seek out cloth armor. After all, in the new system even wearing cloth wont get you oneshotted and you will have far higher avoindance which will actuall work as intended.<div></div>

[dancemice]

<DIV>1) When will we start to see healing spells that heal for better then 25% of a targets health?  - I don't care if it takes a particularly expensive component to do it, It's just nuts when you have to take 2-3 different healer types into a high powered dungeon to keep up with mob damage. (Watch a 10k tank take 9k in damage from some attack or spell, and you'll see what i mean)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can, With a good critical, heal for 2500 points right now. If i'm lucky that will do half the health of a wizard and roughly 1/4 the health of a decently equipped tank. with mob hits into the extreme levels (especially on raids, but who raids with less then 4 healers of any type) my healing capabilities become lacking. I'm sorry. No matter how good i am i cannot keep a tank alive vrs some critters.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) With Wisdom adding to both power pool and resists - Won't the benifit of capping wisdom become effective earlier then say other caps? Ie. resistances will be what, balanced at 4k - but having a 500+ wisdom makes some of those resistances peak at 6k. I'm sure if some of us manage to get our wisdom to 1,000 those resistances will certainlly approach the 10,000 mark - Probably far, far above anything that provides any sort of return.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the comment of 1000 dps.</DIV> <DIV>Hmm. With a 500 buffed strength - With Yulap and a blackscale maul, I have hit for 2500 points (And dual hit for 5,000 - Heh, Took aggro right away from that tank) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't run a parse - However with my templar i can kill an even con in roughly 40 seconds. </DIV> <DIV>With my swashbuckler (I know, No comparison) i can do it in 10.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just My 2cs</DIV> <DIV>Tbiggs. 70 Templar.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>dancemice wrote:<DIV>1) When will we start to see healing spells that heal for better then 25% of a targets health?  - I don't care if it takes a particularly expensive component to do it, It's just nuts when you have to take 2-3 different healer types into a high powered dungeon to keep up with mob damage. (Watch a 10k tank take 9k in damage from some attack or spell, and you'll see what i mean)</DIV><hr></blockquote>There's no single group dungeon where you should be seeing that consistently. Likely as not, what you're seeing there is the result of a lack of fast cures (particularly trauma cures) or badly geared/underlevelled fighters.<blockquote><hr>dancemice wrote:On the comment of 1000 dps.Hmm. With a 500 buffed strength - With Yulap and a blackscale maul, I have hit for 2500 points (And dual hit for 5,000 - Heh, Took aggro right away from that tank) I don't run a parse - However with my templar i can kill an even con in roughly 40 seconds. With my swashbuckler (I know, No comparison) i can do it in 10.<hr></blockquote>I tend to take down even con solo targets in around 15-20 seconds or so.<p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 PM</span>

[Mont]

<DIV> <LI>Fizzle nevermore! The entire Fizzle mechanic has been removed</LI></DIV> <P> </P> <P>Woot !! no more Fizzles while using my Mana Stone <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Boli32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:Hmmm, so it looks like they are nerfing our relative mitigation values to druids and shamans, not sure what's happening with avoidance, but not giving plate a bonus to interrupt mitigation?  We're still going to be interrupted like hell, especially considering we have the longest cast times.<div></div><hr></blockquote>What I read is that base parry and deflection are going to be lowered and avoidance will actually work. So if they are not making plate mitigate interrupts, wearing plate will really be a burden for templars. This is because hits can then actually be avoided with the rate that avoidance shows and that avoidance is effectively the number that reduces interrupts. On the other hand mitigation at the levels where priests are, will be changed so that druid mitigation is much closer to cleric mitigatiom. After all, the purpose is to give low mitigation enough power to prevent oneshots, that is what has been confirmed. So IF mitigation has no effect on interrupts, our time as combat healers is over and it is time to seek out cloth armor. After all, in the new system even wearing cloth wont get you oneshotted and you will have far higher avoindance which will actuall work as intended.<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you have less than 4000 mitigation you'll see an improvement in your mitigation values.... wearing plate has never been a burden to Templars. You can wear chain/leather/cloth if you wish, nothing is stopping you.</div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>boli wrote: <div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:Hmmm, so it looks like they are nerfing our relative mitigation values to druids and shamans, not sure what's happening with avoidance, but not giving plate a bonus to interrupt mitigation?  We're still going to be interrupted like hell, especially considering we have the longest cast times.<div></div><hr></blockquote>What I read is that base parry and deflection are going to be lowered and avoidance will actually work. So if they are not making plate mitigate interrupts, wearing plate will really be a burden for templars. This is because hits can then actually be avoided with the rate that avoidance shows and that avoidance is effectively the number that reduces interrupts. On the other hand mitigation at the levels where priests are, will be changed so that druid mitigation is much closer to cleric mitigatiom. After all, the purpose is to give low mitigation enough power to prevent oneshots, that is what has been confirmed. So IF mitigation has no effect on interrupts, our time as combat healers is over and it is time to seek out cloth armor. After all, in the new system even wearing cloth wont get you oneshotted and you will have far higher avoindance which will actuall work as intended.<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you have less than 4000 mitigation you'll see an improvement in your mitigation values.... wearing plate has never been a burden to Templars. You can wear chain/leather/cloth if you wish, nothing is stopping you.</div><hr></blockquote>Like I said, if they dont make mitigation affect interrupts, I will. Plat as it is, is not a burden since the mitigation helps survive hits. With the new system, even people in cloth will survive those BUT people in cloth will be hit less in general also since avoidance will work as it was meant to. Since you obviously missed the whole point, here it is. Again. If mitigation doesn't affect interrupts, plate for a priest will be a true burden. Plate classes will be hit more often, and thus interrupted more often than people who dont use plate. They will be hit for less damage, but since the changes affect mitigation so that even people with low mitigation will not be oneshotted, survivability is not a reason for non-tank to wear it anymore. So my wish is that mitigation would be a resist for interrupts. If it isn't, I will switch to cloth since avoidance clearly is. Got it?<div></div>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>boli wrote: <div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:Hmmm, so it looks like they are nerfing our relative mitigation values to druids and shamans, not sure what's happening with avoidance, but not giving plate a bonus to interrupt mitigation?  We're still going to be interrupted like hell, especially considering we have the longest cast times.<div></div><hr></blockquote>What I read is that base parry and deflection are going to be lowered and avoidance will actually work. So if they are not making plate mitigate interrupts, wearing plate will really be a burden for templars. This is because hits can then actually be avoided with the rate that avoidance shows and that avoidance is effectively the number that reduces interrupts. On the other hand mitigation at the levels where priests are, will be changed so that druid mitigation is much closer to cleric mitigatiom. After all, the purpose is to give low mitigation enough power to prevent oneshots, that is what has been confirmed. So IF mitigation has no effect on interrupts, our time as combat healers is over and it is time to seek out cloth armor. After all, in the new system even wearing cloth wont get you oneshotted and you will have far higher avoindance which will actuall work as intended.<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you have less than 4000 mitigation you'll see an improvement in your mitigation values.... wearing plate has never been a burden to Templars. You can wear chain/leather/cloth if you wish, nothing is stopping you.</div><hr></blockquote>Like I said, if they dont make mitigation affect interrupts, I will. Plat as it is, is not a burden since the mitigation helps survive hits. With the new system, even people in cloth will survive those BUT people in cloth will be hit less in general also since avoidance will work as it was meant to. Since you obviously missed the whole point, here it is. Again. If mitigation doesn't affect interrupts, plate for a priest will be a true burden. Plate classes will be hit more often, and thus interrupted more often than people who dont use plate. They will be hit for less damage, but since the changes affect mitigation so that even people with low mitigation will not be oneshotted, survivability is not a reason for non-tank to wear it anymore. So my wish is that mitigation would be a resist for interrupts. If it isn't, I will switch to cloth since avoidance clearly is. Got it?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I got it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The point I was trying to make though if interupts bother you so much go a lower armour class. We gain on less interupts loose on needing to cast more spells to keep ourselves alive.... a templar in chain may have only a slight drop in mitigation but possibly double avoidance of one in plate.</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[Livi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raistlan wrote:<BR>Hmmm, so it looks like they are nerfing our relative mitigation values to druids and shamans, not sure what's happening with avoidance, but not giving plate a bonus to interrupt mitigation?  We're still going to be interrupted like hell, especially considering we have the longest cast times.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What I read is that base parry and deflection are going to be lowered and avoidance will actually work. So if they are not making plate mitigate interrupts, wearing plate will really be a burden for templars. This is because hits can then actually be avoided with the rate that avoidance shows and that avoidance is effectively the number that reduces interrupts. On the other hand mitigation at the levels where priests are, will be changed so that druid mitigation is much closer to cleric mitigatiom. After all, the purpose is to give low mitigation enough power to prevent oneshots, that is what has been confirmed.<BR><BR>So IF mitigation has no effect on interrupts, our time as combat healers is over and it is time to seek out cloth armor. After all, in the new system even wearing cloth wont get you oneshotted and you will have far higher avoindance which will actuall work as intended.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you have less than 4000 mitigation you'll see an improvement in your mitigation values.... wearing plate has never been a burden to Templars. You can wear chain/leather/cloth if you wish, nothing is stopping you.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Like I said, if they dont make mitigation affect interrupts, I will. Plat as it is, is not a burden since the mitigation helps survive hits. With the new system, even people in cloth will survive those BUT people in cloth will be hit less in general also since avoidance will work as it was meant to. <BR><BR>Since you obviously missed the whole point, here it is. Again. If mitigation doesn't affect interrupts, plate for a priest will be a true burden. Plate classes will be hit more often, and thus interrupted more often than people who dont use plate. They will be hit for less damage, but since the changes affect mitigation so that even people with low mitigation will not be oneshotted, survivability is not a reason for non-tank to wear it anymore.<BR><BR>So my wish is that mitigation would be a resist for interrupts. If it isn't, I will switch to cloth since avoidance clearly is.<BR><BR>Got it?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I got it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>The point I was trying to make though if interupts bother you so much go a lower armour class. We gain on less interupts loose on needing to cast more spells to keep ourselves alive.... a templar in chain may have only a slight drop in mitigation but possibly double avoidance of one in plate.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by boli on <SPAN class=date_text>10-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffccff>If you raid you will notice alot of the fabled drops are class specific... therefore we dont have much choice in the matter imo</FONT><BR>

[Kizee]

<P>If the revamp goes live as is then i will be switching to chain. </P> <P>The way chain drops now adays i will be fully fabled in less time than if i waited to get plate. It will also cost me less dkp since all the plate drops seem to go for min of 10dkp and chain goes from 1-5 dkp.</P>

[Livi]

<DIV><FONT color=#99ffff>Weird how is your dkp set up? hehe but dont you find alot of the items to be class specific?</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <P>If the revamp goes live as is then i will be switching to chain. </P> <P>The way chain drops now adays i will be fully fabled in less time than if i waited to get plate. It will also cost me less dkp since all the plate drops seem to go for min of 10dkp and chain goes from 1-5 dkp.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liviee wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#99ffff>Weird how is your dkp set up? hehe but dont you find alot of the items to be class specific?</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <P>If the revamp goes live as is then i will be switching to chain. </P> <P>The way chain drops now adays i will be fully fabled in less time than if i waited to get plate. It will also cost me less dkp since all the plate drops seem to go for min of 10dkp and chain goes from 1-5 dkp.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is not really how dkp is set up but how rare plate has been. When plate drops people go nuts. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Last month we saw about maybe 3 plate drops all month clearing every instance (except  venikor, tarinax and curor).</P> <P>But to answer your question we get .5 DKP per hour raiding and bids start at 1 for fabled nodrops.</P> <P>Yes I do see alot of class specific chain but I bet I could get fully fabled faster than if I wait for plate to drop. :p</P><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>10-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>

[Livi]

<FONT color=#99ffff>awww I'm sorry <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I need shoulders Boots and bracers in way of armor but I know what you mean... but my guild has an even worse time with leather than plate.  The cloth people in our guild are lucky</FONT>

[Livi]

<DIV><FONT color=#99ffff>on a sidenote a really nice pair of shoulders dropped in labs... and they were Pally only... ummmmm what the <A href="mailto:#@$#W$" target=_blank>#@$#W$</A> lol</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Liviee on <span class=date_text>10-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liviee wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#99ffff>on a sidenote a really nice pair of shoulders dropped in labs... and they were Pally only... ummmmm what the <A href="mailto:#@$#W$" target=_blank>#@$#W$</A> lol</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Liviee on <SPAN class=date_text>10-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep, templars seem to get left out in class specific stuff. I'm not surprised tho...we seem to be the red headed step child of healers.

[Archill]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kizee wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Liviee wrote: <div></div> <div><font color="#99ffff">on a sidenote a really nice pair of shoulders dropped in labs... and they were Pally only... ummmmm what the <a href="mailto:#@$#W$" target="_blank">#@$#W$</a> lol</font></div> <p>Message Edited by Liviee on <span class="date_text">10-06-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:54 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Yep, templars seem to get left out in class specific stuff. I'm not surprised tho...we seem to be the red headed step child of healers.<hr></blockquote>Er...?<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/RoyceLove/eq2loot_FirebrandPauldrons.jpg"></div>

[StevusX]

<P>The more i look at the potential changes the more concerned i am getting tbh.</P> <P>One of the major benefits of being a plate wearing templar was the ability to take a hit.</P> <P>Its what makes us different from other healer types imo.  We can get aggro - and survive.</P> <P>The down side has been that a lot of plate has always been aimed at tank classes and we have to generally put more effort in to obtain decent cleric plate.</P> <P>If these changes go ahead, and i understand soe correctly, they are mostly going to take away this distinction - just as they did with healing.</P> <P>So... if that is the case - what will be the point/benefit of being a plate wearing healer?   Probably none ? </P> <P>Will the advice of all noobie healers be - roll warden/fury ?   </P> <P>I hope not cos i still love being a templar but i am concerned we will be less useful and wanted if/when these changes go live.</P>

[StevusX]

<P>pS before i get the usual "well wear chain or leather then theres nothing stopping you" comments</P> <P>1)  i would not then be a templar - plate is supposed to be a defining part of our class.</P> <P>2) i would lose a LOT of mitigation - and my avoidance would go up by very little in comparison due to the way soe have designed the class</P> <P>(how viable is it to lose say 1% of mit and gain say 0.1% avoid ? )</P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Archill wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liviee wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#99ffff>on a sidenote a really nice pair of shoulders dropped in labs... and they were Pally only... ummmmm what the <A href="mailto:#@$#W$" target=_blank>#@$#W$</A> lol</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Liviee on <SPAN class=date_text>10-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:54 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep, templars seem to get left out in class specific stuff. I'm not surprised tho...we seem to be the red headed step child of healers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Er...?<BR><BR><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/RoyceLove/eq2loot_FirebrandPauldrons.jpg"><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh boy. 1 set of armor. Seems to be alot more class only loot for everybody else than templars.

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh boy. 1 set of armor. Seems to be alot more class only loot for everybody else than templars.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><IMG src="http://image.com.com/mp3/images/cover/200/dre400/e458/e458663ysvf.jpg"><BR>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<hr></blockquote>Nice contribution. As always.<div></div>

[Asp728]

<DIV>So what class specific armor have you seen that there is none for Templar?  i.e. - the animists stuff for druids, Dracomancer for mages, Firebrand for clerics..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least you have a class dropped hat <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Asp728 wrote: <div>At least you have a class dropped hat <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>7 subclasses have their own class dropped hat. Clerics, crusaders, summoners and swashbucklers. But for your comfort, the templar class hat looks exactly the same as paladin. So our class hat is the same as furies, the graphic is shared by another class. <div></div>

[Boli32]

Templars have:- Truefaith & Firebrand (Shared with Paladins)Furys have:- Stormwrath and Animist (Shared with Wardens)Using EQ2IDB (lovely little program <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) it turns out templars have access to 13 fabled shoulder pieces... furys have access to 6 Including Legendary pieces... furys have access to another 6 templars 20.Sure a lot of those pieces may not have the best stats for this and that... that's where the class specific ones comes in and we both get access to two sets of them but there is still a lot of fabled pieces of armour on there that is chain/leather that templars can use... the 3 fabled chain templars can use are Entwood Shoudler pads, Manctle of Suffering, and Mystic Shoulderpads of the CodexaITEM 493686461 -62136678:Entwood Shoulder Pads/aaITEM 129369451 419703772:Mantle of Suffering/aaITEM 493686461 -62136678:Entwood Shoulder Pads/acheck them they are pretty nice items... having heavy amrour doesn't mean you havce to wear it it gives you the choice of wearing it... or leather... or chain. Although cltoh armour is pretty limited to mages... there is still an abundance of gear in chain and leather templars can use./end rant<div></div>

[Kizee]

<P>Love how the furies come out of the woodwork saying that templars don't have it as bad as furies. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>As far as I see it... leather and chain wearing healers should be hoping that the new patch doesn't go live as is because you will have clerics bidding on your non class specific stuff. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>If that patch goes live as it is, plate will be a liabiltity for templars to wear.</P>

[Momolicio]

<div></div><div></div>Why is there always a support troll here? (I still carry a grudge over the whines from a year ago, least I am honest about my animosities)As far as Fabled.Are you counting all fabled drops that have Fury, or Templar in the list and of the respective class armors (not counting chain, cloth etc). Or did you exclude some that would be more melee oriented?I would surely hope I am not understanding you correctly when you say there are only 12(oops 13) plate shoulders in the fabled range.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Elmomo on <span class=date_text>10-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[mcavellero]

Thanks for breaking the changes down.   Excellent post!

[EQAditu]

<div></div>Ugh, I can't believe how many people care about how this is going to affect their soloing...  especially how many of them raid.  We get interrupted already, are you going to notice it a little bit more?  Focus stats are supposed to help more than it does now as well... anyhow... I don't even care.Does no one care about how this is going to affect our healing?  With so many changes, its doubtful its going to be exactly the same.  I hear in random places that brawlers will be able to tank epic bosses... but I'm betting we're still going to suck at healing them.  Where is that going to put us?  Is everyone so comfortable in their position that they don't possibly think a reduction in our efficiency on raids will hurt us?  Even now with mitigation tanks, we're at a disadvantage verses single bosses that hit for half HP every few seconds.  Even after the changes, I find it difficult to believe we will be able to heal avoidance tanks very well at all.  And with so many changes happening to <i>everyone's</i> avoidance, we're the only healing class that depends on <i>low</i> avoidance to heal.  Yet, no one comments on the possibilities at all...  we're still a healing class, right?  Even with all of the DPS build discussions and such. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>EQAditu wrote:<div></div>Does no one care about how this is going to affect our healing?  With so many changes, its doubtful its going to be exactly the same.  I hear in random places that brawlers will be able to tank epic bosses... but I'm betting we're still going to suck at healing them.  Where is that going to put us?  Is everyone so comfortable in their position that they don't possibly think a reduction in our efficiency on raids will hurt us?  Even now with mitigation tanks, we're at a disadvantage verses single bosses that hit for half HP every few seconds.  Even after the changes, I find it difficult to believe we will be able to heal avoidance tanks very well at all.  And with so many changes happening to <i>everyone's</i> avoidance, we're the only healing class that depends on <i>low</i> avoidance to heal.  Yet, no one comments on the possibilities at all...  we're still a healing class, right?  Even with all of the DPS build discussions and such. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, if they even try to balance things, the mobs will be hitting brawlers about the same amount as they hit plate tanks now and for that same damage. And for plate tanks, the mobs should be hitting slightly more often and for slightly less damage. Then the mobs will miss most of the hits since there are no high level tanks with less than 50% avoidance. So from templars perspective, nothing should really change, exept that brawlers are propably slightly easier to heal since they will be hit more often for less damage. Yes, they really need to keep the damage output of the mobs as it currently is. Now they can totally destroy the system by just multiplying the damage of a hit, but if they do, they will fix it fast since brawlers already get hit for 10k a hit by epic trash. Also this would really [Removed for Content] templar reactives since mobs would be missing 50%+ of the hits. But I think they will do as I mentioned above, mobs will hit faster and for less damage (at least for brawlers) and also miss more. Any other option would be another nerf for the classes that are already in worse shape than others.<div></div>

[Frayo]

<P>I agree with you Kizee my biggest problem was finding which one of your posts to make my reply, I liked them all.</P> <P>Not sure about Stevusx's concept of a Templar but the idea of a battle cleric, doesn't exist.  At least not the way I see the description played out.  They use to call them Pallies but now I not sure if anyone can be the so called battle cleric.  When I'm on a raid or even in a group and I'm getting hit, something has gone very wrong.  I would save you the embarrasement of your DPS from the snickering classes that do so very much of it.  If you wanted to do dps or be in the thick of things, head back to character creation templars are not it.</P> <P>Dancemice I feel hit the nail on the head with that first question.  Just were is our Complete heal (i.e. see eq1)?  Seems like we were ment to be the best of healers (again see eq1) but I find myself sharing that spotlight.  I got all the drawbacks weres the spell?  Like soe forgot that one spell that would make us Templars and allow us to forget about such wonderful things such as the lack of DPS.</P> <P>Sorry I'm off subject....</P> <P>I'm with you Kizee on the armour and backing down to chain... ect.  After all I made a Templar to be the best healer class in the game and that's already gone why not the plate as well.  Maybe we can all just be DrooOODs and love the trees.  But I'm not sure if this will happen, they speak of armour sets in the next hoopla, I figure we will all be once again attempting to look alike in our solid color armours (I saw that in the sneek peeks) and I'll place my plat down on the Templar set being Plate!</P> <P>Kendricke, thank you for the posted information.</P> <P>Frayo 70th Templar / Stormshadows 70th Coercer      Kithicor</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Binski]

<P>Just a thought here.  Since they are going to change the cap on mit. I would liked to get back the the +mit that our reactives gave a loooooong time ago.  Since it the cap is going to be much higher, I wouldn't mind to having that effect back on our reactives, since they removed it without giving us anything in return.  Or is this too much to ask?</P> <P>On a side note, I hope they adjust all the raids, because after the first round of combat changes some raids where impossible to do for loong time.    </P> <P>Just my 2 cents. </P> <P>Crick</P> <P>70th Level Templar<BR>Guk<BR><BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Binski on <SPAN class=date_text>10-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:11 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Binski on <span class=date_text>10-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[Bjerde]

Yeah, that is a good idea. How 'bout we get our extra mitigation buff back too!?!<div></div>

[ScottAdams]

<P>With both the combat changes and also druids getting Translocate/porting in EoF</P> <P> (See my thread here <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=128274&view=by_date_ascending&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=128274&view=by_date_ascending&page=2</A>&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I am planning on dumping my plate wearing templar for a Fae Warden! </P> <P>Never did really like Odysess in place of SoW anyway.</P>

[Archill]

For an army of one, I suppose the teleportation spells will be nice.. but as a veteran eq1 wizard just let me say that you will begin to loathe them, their very presence will spark anger and madness throughout your mind! ... I mean.. you'll get sick of people begging for a teleport.<div></div>

[EQAditu]

<div></div>They just need to readd corpses and 96% exp resses again... so we(clerics) get people begging us to travel 13 zones away to res them.  Don't need to be a wizard to know the pain <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[ScottAdams]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Archill wrote:<BR>For an army of one, I suppose the teleportation spells will be nice.. but as a veteran eq1 wizard just let me say that you will begin to loathe them, their very presence will spark anger and madness throughout your mind! ... I mean.. you'll get sick of people begging for a teleport.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I played a Druid in EQlive to around 48 or so and I loved having ports. I set up a taxi service based on tips. Was great fun. I never minded when people asked for a lift and was happy to oblige. True I did not have TL but other than that the spells where the same!

[Fugaci]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Frayo wrote:<div></div> <p>I agree with you Kizee my biggest problem was finding which one of your posts to make my reply, I liked them all.</p> <p>Not sure about Stevusx's concept of a Templar but the idea of a battle cleric, doesn't exist.  At least not the way I see the description played out.  They use to call them Pallies but now I not sure if anyone can be the so called battle cleric.  When I'm on a raid or even in a group and I'm getting hit, something has gone very wrong.  I would save you the embarrasement of your DPS from the snickering classes that do so very much of it.  If you wanted to do dps or be in the thick of things, head back to character creation templars are not it.</p> <p>Dancemice I feel hit the nail on the head with that first question.  Just were is our Complete heal (i.e. see eq1)?  Seems like we were ment to be the best of healers (again see eq1) but I find myself sharing that spotlight.  I got all the drawbacks weres the spell?  Like soe forgot that one spell that would make us Templars and allow us to forget about such wonderful things such as the lack of DPS.</p><hr></blockquote>I couldn't disagree with you or Kizee more.  So you want to be a pure healer or a healer/divine mage than fine don't take the AAs that increase your DPS...For the 1 millionth time Templars were not ever suppose to be the best healer in the game, we are all suppose to be equal, just different and this is not EQ1.  We have the ability to wear plate, we carry big sticks, sometimes with huge spikes in them.  They should do more than tickle the opponent with them.  Now depending on which AAs you choose you can.  I guess Sony should appologize to you for putting a DPS AA in the same line that the healing crit is so you had to "waste" your AAs to get it. And since our melee DPS is at least 98 precent based on auto attack, one would have to be pretty forgetful to forget to heal.(What was I suppose to do after I hit autoattack, oh crap the tank just died...)  The whole point of the AAs was not to turn you into the best healer of all time, but to encourage diversity.  I'm not sure why you find it necessary to push your belief that we are suppose to heal so we all most improve our healing on everyone, I certainly am not saying anyone who doesn't want to be a "battle cleric" should be one or they are misguided because battle priests are the best ever.  Your position just seems a little focused on one thing and you aren't looking that the broader picture and obviosly you don't care about diversity.I typically group with a Paladin and  a Swashbuckler, I never have a problem healing, and we take on stuff that most people require full groups to attempt.  Although we don't raid we do find ourselves killing blue/white epic x2s from time to time when we are bored and we don't have a problem doing that either.  The extra DPS helps, it helps me to heal less, which means the fight was faster and my recovery time is less so we can take more on.I also sometimes solo, in which case I am happy for the mitigation changes so that curve will be better balanced, as well as the changes in fizzles and focus.  I think in general the changes are for the benefit of everyone wether they care about their DPS or not.  Because if you are a non plate wearing Templar, when you do get hit by that add or pop, your lower mitigation is going to be less of a liability.</div><p>Message Edited by Fugacity on <span class="date_text">10-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:20 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Fugacity on <span class=date_text>10-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Fugacity wrote:<div>For the 1 millionth time Templars were not ever suppose to be the best healer in the game, we are all suppose to be equal, just different and this is not EQ1.  We have the ability to wear plate, we carry big sticks, sometimes with huge spikes in them.  They should do more than tickle the opponent with them.  Now depending on which AAs you choose you can.  <font color="#ffff00">I guess Sony should appologize to you for putting a DPS AA in the same line that the healing crit is so you had to "waste" your AAs to get it.</font> And since our melee DPS is at least 98 precent based on auto attack, one would have to be pretty forgetful to forget to heal.(What was I suppose to do after I hit autoattack, oh crap the tank just died...)  The whole point of the AAs was not to turn you into the best healer of all time, but to encourage diversity.  I'm not sure why you find it necessary to push your belief that we are suppose to heal so we all most improve our healing on everyone, I certainly am not saying anyone who doesn't want to be a "battle cleric" should be one or they are misguided because battle priests are the best ever.  Your position just seems a little focused on one thing and you aren't looking that the broader picture and obviosly you don't care about diversity.I typically group with a Paladin and  a Swashbuckler, I never have a problem healing, and we take on stuff that most people require full groups to attempt.  Although we don't raid we do find ourselves killing blue/white epic x2s from time to time when we are bored and we don't have a problem doing that either.  The extra DPS helps, it helps me to heal less, which means the fight was faster and my recovery time is less so we can take more on.I also sometimes solo, in which case I am happy for the mitigation changes so that curve will be better balanced, as well as the changes in fizzles and focus.  I think in general the changes are for the benefit of everyone wether they care about their DPS or not.  Because if you are a non plate wearing Templar, when you do get hit by that add or pop, your lower mitigation is going to be less of a liability.</div><hr></blockquote>I agree with everything above there but the higlighted section just made me laugh.The currant AAs Clerics get offer a good range of abilities and skills that any pure healing cleric will appriciate... the fact that you get melee DPS abilities interspirsed is an added bonus. AT the end of the day which would you rather have:50% chance to critical Attack with a melee weaponOR 4% chance on a benificial spell cast on target of benificial spell to gain 3s stun immunity.For the record I've seen it go off ONCE, and the tank didn't get stunned... but then he didn't get stunned all fight, so I guess it works.... kinda... or he coudl have not had a stunning atatck on him in that time <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The Aformentioend druid ability is in the same place just above heal crits same as your melee crits are.</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>10-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:56 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Fugacity wrote: <P> </P> <DIV>I couldn't disagree with you or Kizee more.  So you want to be a pure healer or a healer/divine mage than fine don't take the AAs that increase your DPS...<BR><BR>For the 1 millionth time Templars were not ever suppose to be the best healer in the game, we are all suppose to be equal, just different and this is not EQ1.  We have the ability to wear plate, we carry big sticks, sometimes with huge spikes in them.  They should do more than tickle the opponent with them.  Now depending on which AAs you choose you can.  I guess Sony should appologize to you for putting a DPS AA in the same line that the healing crit is so you had to "waste" your AAs to get it.<BR><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah Templars arent supposed to be the best healers in game, thats for the druids :p<BR>