No Wis?

[Ryzori]

<DIV>Heya. I'm a relatively new Templar (level 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I play on the Venekor PvP server, and am trying to find an AA build that will suit me as both a raid healer, and a PvP Templar. After reading some posts here, I've decided to focus on the Int and Sta lines. Int gives me faster casting times and that wonderful Divine Recovery ability, while Sta increases my survival in PvP, gives me a blur/knockdown (major since I get jumped by Assassins/Brigands/SK's all the time), and increases my heal crit rate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've noticed one interesting thing however - no one puts points into Wisdom. Is there a reason for this? We're taught early on that wisdom determines our power pool (and spell resists) and is therefore a primary stat for us. Yet I see essentially zero builds that involve increasing wisdom. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guess is that there must be a cap on stats, and wisdom must be easily reached. Could anyone give me some advice on this? For example, I've picked Wisdom as my 8 and 28 stat increase, and now I'm wondering if that was a mistake. Should I not put any more into wisdom and focus on something else instead? Thanks for the input. </DIV>

[Raistlan]

Once you get to the higher levels, yes, wisdom is rather easy to cap and that's why none of us care to use the first wisdom AA.  For the rest of them, they're utterly useless unless your fighting undead mobs, thus unless your aiming to build a character built on high dps vs undead, it's not worth putting points into.<div></div>

[excellion]

Unfortunetly Templars only have 2 really viable AA lines. Stam and Int.Strength and Agility are completely useless. Ooh, I can be immune to aoes for a short period of time! Wisdom line is god-awful. You would imagine the Wisdom line would have some use, as we are a wisdom based class. Instead we get a bunch of mediocre abilities for use against Undead enemies. I guess the final tier immunity to Undead ability would be good if you could cast it on other players. Im not entirely sure if you can though. That would make it amazing for the fight against the giant undead dragon in Bonemire.Threat reduction is "ok". I say "ok" because I have never grabbed heal aggro unless the tank is anything other then a Guardian/Berserker. It's not worth 4 points though.Right now im on my 27th or 28th AA point as a level 64 Templar, and I went down Stamina till I got to Heal Crit+I maxed that out, and started putting points into int so I can eventuall get that extremely nice AoE buff. God it's so good in pvp.

[thesilverf]

<DIV>As has been said,  by end game maxing your wis isn't going to be an issue.   For raiding, you aren't going to need dmg AA;s  but for PVP  you might. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For Raiding it's Heal crit chance, and Cast timers IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For PvP though... you might want to go down the dmg route layed out in threads on this board, and just respec when you start raiding. From what other temps have posted, it really seems to be the only way to catch up to other classes dmg wise. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I gotta imagine it's pretty frustrating on a PVP server...  getting someone to 20%  then having to take down the rest running after them as any healer...  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Edited to clarify that these are just the opinions of one templar who raids...</FONT></EM></DIV><p>Message Edited by thesilverfox on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">Unfortunetly Templars only have 2 really viable AA lines. Stam and Int.Strength and Agility are completely useless. Ooh, I can be immune to aoes for a short period of time! For Raiding it's Heal crit chance, and Cast timers. <hr size="2" width="100%">Ok, these statements are nothing but typical closemindedness.  Stamina and Intelligence ARE NOT the ONLY viable achievement lines.  Heal crit and cast timers ARE NOT, by ANY MEANS the only, end all, beat all, uber must have ways to go for raiding.  They're just the lines with the least thought required to see thier benefits.You think agility is completely useless? HA.  Shield Ally, when properly geared and having a few points into it, is effectively the same thing as having another stone skin spell except that you can't use it on yourself.  Don't believe me? Scroll down and check the Shield Ally parse testing thread.  You think being immune to aoes for a short period is useless? Again I laugh. First, this isn't only useable on yourself.  You can protect any group ally not being targetted by the AOE.  This can be useful for mobs such as Gorenaire in the AoA x4 raid who ports the tanks.  Protect one of the other tanks from AOEs until their turn to tank.  Or for those times when other healers can't stay in range of the tank to heal because of aoes (or get sent out of range because of an AOE knockback) you can use it on yourself and laugh at the epic responsible for it.  I'm a huge fan of Shield Ally, as are my raid leaders.  The only problem I have with the  AOE protection is the 5 minute recast timer.  To make this buff worth it IMO it should be a one minute recast with the current 30 second duration, just like Aegis of Faith.  Though I could see a one minute recast making it over powered.You think strength is completely useless? Once  more I laugh.  Do yall even read any of the abilities in the achievement lines?  Skull crack isn't just an attack, it's one heck of a debuff witih one of the shortest cast times we can get.  The text doesn't say anything about if it works on epics like woundurous buckling says so I don't know if it works on epics or not.  Probably not, but it's great for PvP.  Heck, if you're a PvP templar the strength line is great.  Between that debuff (which is also an interrupt), Bolt of Power for a damage and interrupt proc (who's % to proc goes up with more points), Unwavering resolve for increased Focus and Disruption (less spell resists and less interrupts/fizzles), and last but not least Steadfast which grants you immunity to stifles and interrupts, the strength line just screams "use me in PvP".  Especially against fighters who can interrupt us with their taunts.Are Stamina and Intellegence great choices for achievements? yes absolutely.  Are they the only way to go? Absolutely not.  They just require the least thought and imagination.  As a solo, group, and raid templar I'm personally going 4/4/8/8/8 AGI, 4/4/8 STA.  I already out heal every other healer I raid with on parsing and that's without accounting for the hits I block (without needing to heal afterwards) with shield ally.  I even block debilitate and dispatch.  I don't personally need heal crit.BTW, Hammer Smite from the stamina line is also good for PvP, not just as another attack, but for the knockdown/stun.  It's duration increases with more point.As far as the widom line is concernec, while it has some outstanding abilities when it comes to undead, the fact that they are all restricted to undead makes it too situational for my taste.  If you're going to be up against some majore nasty undead the line is wonderful, especialy the group ward for 1000 attacks.  I'd see this as something one would make out of personal choice.  There are situations where this line is nice, such as the Godking raid and some of the KoS instances have a good amount of undead.<p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>09-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 PM</span>

[thesilverf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quijonsith wrote:<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> Unfortunetly Templars only have 2 really viable AA lines. Stam and Int.<BR><BR>Strength and Agility are completely useless. Ooh, I can be immune to aoes for a short period of time! <BR><BR>For Raiding it's Heal crit chance, and Cast timers. <BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> Ok, these statements are nothing but typical closemindedness.  <BR>Stamina and Intelligence ARE NOT the ONLY viable achievement lines.  Heal crit and cast timers ARE NOT, by ANY MEANS the only, end all, beat all, uber must have ways to go for raiding.  They're just the lines with the least thought required to see thier benefits.<BR><BR>You think agility is completely useless? HA.  Shield Ally, when properly geared and having a few points into it, is effectively the same thing as having another stone skin spell except that you can't use it on yourself.  Don't believe me? Scroll down and check the Shield Ally parse testing thread.  You think being immune to aoes for a short period is useless? Again I laugh. First, this isn't only useable on yourself.  You can protect any group ally not being targetted by the AOE.  This can be useful for mobs such as Gorenaire in the AoA x4 raid who ports the tanks.  Protect one of the other tanks from AOEs until their turn to tank.  Or for those times when other healers can't stay in range of the tank to heal because of aoes (or get sent out of range because of an AOE knockback) you can use it on yourself and laugh at the epic responsible for it.  I'm a huge fan of Shield Ally, as are my raid leaders.  The only problem I have with the  AOE protection is the 5 minute recast timer.  To make this buff worth it IMO it should be a one minute recast with the current 30 second duration, just like Aegis of Faith.  Though I could see a one minute recast making it over powered.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well thats a partial quote of what i said mixed in with other people's statements but ok...  I never denounced the other lines.  I just stated my opnion on what is best for raiding, based on actually having 50 AA's for awhile now and looking hard at them all vs T7 raids.  Least thought out, and close minded? whatever dude.</P> <P>I've looked at shield ally, and I read your post when you made it.  I commend you for putting that effort forth, and I'll admit I was surprised and impressed to see it perform even that well.  But there are several reasons it is lacking imo.  First and foremost, to get the most out of it you have to have a high avoidance.  To get that high avoidance you have to wear lighter armor than plate.  Compared to some of the plate options out there, you end up gimping yourself on power pool, and resists.  If you are going to continue this yourself I suggest you go for the hardened Bark Boots from Roost x 2 btw.  30 Wis and Chain.</P> <P>So you end up blocking 200 or so hits a zone with shield ally?  How many of those are from trash?  For nearly all trash in T7  with a well geeared tank and good healers, he should never drop below green regardless.  In Labs, DT and HOS  I rarely have to cast more than my Group reactive, if it's even needed, on trash.  Given this, the payout over the whole raid seems less to me, than having those faster casts which will always increase what i bring to a raid.  Quicker casting heals allows me more time for debuffs, and yes..  nukes.  I'm hitting for 800-1400 with them these days.  On top of that..  Divine recovery though nerfed a bit, is still pretty useful.   If anyone in your group goes down, yu can use it right after rez and they can have the tank rebuffed in no time. </P> <P>As for AE immunity, it seems far too situational, and what it does bring can be replaced by a bard on the whole group.  Outside of a few encounters, I either resist enough of the AE,damage flat out, avoid them, or we heal through it.   The most dangerous ones are stuns, and well I have Sanctuary for that. </P> <P>As for your Gorenaire statement, the AE is nothing with as low as 6k resists.  I stand next to her the entire fight and don't even put on special gear. Not only that, but once she's debuffed she hits like a wuss.</P>

[BlaseBlase]

<blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div> You think strength is completely useless? Once  more I laugh.  Do yall even read any of the abilities in the achievement lines?  Skull crack isn't just an attack, it's one heck of a debuff witih one of the shortest cast times we can get.  <font color="#ffff00">The text doesn't say anything about if it works on epics like woundurous buckling says so I don't know if it works on epics or not.  Probably not, but it's great for PvP.</font>  Heck, if you're a PvP templar the strength line is great.  Between that debuff (which is also an interrupt), Bolt of Power for a damage and interrupt proc (who's % to proc goes up with more points), Unwavering resolve for increased Focus and Disruption (less spell resists and less interrupts/fizzles), and last but not least Steadfast which grants you immunity to stifles and interrupts, the strength line just screams "use me in PvP".  Especially against fighters who can interrupt us with their taunts. <hr></blockquote>From personal experience raiding.. it works on epics =)  With two clerics in your raid backing each other up on this debuff, that mob dmg drops noticably.  It almost seems like stacking that debuff on top of all the other junk that lands from other raid members creates the tipping point for turning a PITA mob into a kitten.  I'll admit it does have a hard time sticking, but when it does the MT rarely drops below 75%.  Was originally int/sta myself, but after looking at Skullcrack I respec'd to that line and don't regret it at all.  The focus bonus in the str also seems to help quite a bit with interupts from AEs or even epic trash agro.  Another thing about the int line; faster casting is nice but that just means you'll run out of power quicker and the rest of the int line really isn't worth much to me (maybe the final int would have been, but never tried it).  After some math and experimenting, I found that the crit heals made the biggest diff in my healing output.  I agree that anyone who looks at the int line and thinks it's the obvious choice should play around some, because they're missing a chance at finding something better. My AA line: Str - 4/8/5/8 Sta - 4/4/8/8 <div></div>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>thesilverfox wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Quijonsith wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <hr size="2" width="100%"> Unfortunetly Templars only have 2 really viable AA lines. Stam and Int.Strength and Agility are completely useless. Ooh, I can be immune to aoes for a short period of time! For Raiding it's Heal crit chance, and Cast timers. <hr size="2" width="100%"> Ok, these statements are nothing but typical closemindedness.  Stamina and Intelligence ARE NOT the ONLY viable achievement lines.  Heal crit and cast timers ARE NOT, by ANY MEANS the only, end all, beat all, uber must have ways to go for raiding.  They're just the lines with the least thought required to see thier benefits.You think agility is completely useless? HA.  Shield Ally, when properly geared and having a few points into it, is effectively the same thing as having another stone skin spell except that you can't use it on yourself.  Don't believe me? Scroll down and check the Shield Ally parse testing thread.  You think being immune to aoes for a short period is useless? Again I laugh. First, this isn't only useable on yourself.  You can protect any group ally not being targetted by the AOE.  This can be useful for mobs such as Gorenaire in the AoA x4 raid who ports the tanks.  Protect one of the other tanks from AOEs until their turn to tank.  Or for those times when other healers can't stay in range of the tank to heal because of aoes (or get sent out of range because of an AOE knockback) you can use it on yourself and laugh at the epic responsible for it.  I'm a huge fan of Shield Ally, as are my raid leaders.  The only problem I have with the  AOE protection is the 5 minute recast timer.  To make this buff worth it IMO it should be a one minute recast with the current 30 second duration, just like Aegis of Faith.  Though I could see a one minute recast making it over powered. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Well thats a partial quote of what i said mixed in with other people's statements but ok...  I never denounced the other lines.  I just stated my opnion on what is best for raiding, based on actually having 50 AA's for awhile now and looking hard at them all vs T7 raids.  Least thought out, and close minded? whatever dude.</p> <p>I've looked at shield ally, and I read your post when you made it.  I commend you for putting that effort forth, and I'll admit I was surprised and impressed to see it perform even that well.  But there are several reasons it is lacking imo.  First and foremost, to get the most out of it you have to have a high avoidance.  To get that high avoidance you have to wear lighter armor than plate.  Compared to some of the plate options out there, you end up gimping yourself on power pool, and resists.  If you are going to continue this yourself I suggest you go for the hardened Bark Boots from Roost x 2 btw.  30 Wis and Chain.</p> <p>So you end up blocking 200 or so hits a zone with shield ally?  How many of those are from trash?  For nearly all trash in T7  with a well geeared tank and good healers, he should never drop below green regardless.  In Labs, DT and HOS  I rarely have to cast more than my Group reactive, if it's even needed, on trash.  Given this, the payout over the whole raid seems less to me, than having those faster casts which will always increase what i bring to a raid.  Quicker casting heals allows me more time for debuffs, and yes..  nukes.  I'm hitting for 800-1400 with them these days.  On top of that..  Divine recovery though nerfed a bit, is still pretty useful.   If anyone in your group goes down, yu can use it right after rez and they can have the tank rebuffed in no time. </p> <p>As for AE immunity, it seems far too situational, and what it does bring can be replaced by a bard on the whole group.  Outside of a few encounters, I either resist enough of the AE,damage flat out, avoid them, or we heal through it.   The most dangerous ones are stuns, and well I have Sanctuary for that. </p> <p>As for your Gorenaire statement, the AE is nothing with as low as 6k resists.  I stand next to her the entire fight and don't even put on special gear. Not only that, but once she's debuffed she hits like a wuss.</p><hr></blockquote>I know you didn't denounce any other lines.  I was more responding to the person above you.  The line I took from your post just fit in with what I was responding to.  I will say that "For Raiding it's Heal crit chance and Cast timers" by itself sounds like you're trying to state fact, hense close minded.  I never said that choosing those two were the least thought out.  Just that they require the least thought to see the benefit.AE immunity, the long recast time doesn't make it worth it except in certain situations IMO, as I already said.  As far as Gorenaire, I was thinking it might work against the knockbacks she uses.  Don't know if it would or not.As far as the gear needed for shield ally, you obviously don't pay much attention to plate tanks, especially crusaders.  In my healing gear I only have one piece of chain and one piece of cloth.  The Mantle of the Orate and the Golden Efreeti Boots.  The rest is all plate and I have more avoidance without my shield then shamans do in full chain and druids in leather.  You think I sacrifice resists? I have gauntlets with every resists aswell as +5 defense.  In a raid group I don't need to max my own wisdom.  The group puts me over the cap as it is so I'm not sacrificing wisdom.  Plate with +def nets you more avoidance than changing a piece from plate to chain.  Then there's the voodoo doll of valor.  +wis and +def.  If i'm in a fight where resists are important (like gorenaire) I have jewelry for that.  I have no problem getting my avoidance to 28% by myself.  If I have to break out alot of resist gear then my avoidance is only 25%.  Wow, big sacrifice.  When it comes to long raid fights I have more power left at the end of the fight than even most of our druids who have 1k or more power greater than I do because I have alot of flowing thought gear.  Total power is more important in short, mana intensive fights, but in long drawn out fights flowing thought wins.So you get to reduce cast and recast timers of the group for 30 seconds every 3 minutes.  That means the whole group runs out of power faster.  A good MT group with a well geared tank and good healers don't need the recast timer reduction.  Shield Ally is always active.  Its benefits are constant.  Not just 30 seconds out of 3 minutes.  When a mob can autoattack for 4k and I can block said hits, aswell as combat arts like debilitate and dispatch, Shield Ally becomes invaluable.  My raid leaders always prefer me in the MT group because of this buff.  My job is damage prevention and this ability does it very well.  And it's not just against trash mobs.  I block hits from nameds all the time.  The most benefit from this ability is against raids full of more mobs at once.  Normally all those hits would eat right through reactives, but instead most of them get eatin by shield ally and our stone skin spell.As far as more time for nukes, what the heck are you doing nuking in a raid?  The recast reduction will burn your power more already from heals, much less chain nuking faster.  If I'm in the MT group I might throw out warring axiom, but that's it.  If i'm in a melee dps group I might turn DPS and nuke, but never from the MT group.But in the end as I keep saying it all comes down to what you want to buff.  The only real point I was originally making was that Devine Recovery and Heal Crit are not the only way to go for raiding.  I'm sick of so many templars spreading that nonsense and ignoring the benefits of other lines.  Then new templars with questions about achievements buy into it and don't even look at the other lines.  Like I said, my response was more geared toward the person above yours.  Your line just fit in with what I responded to.</div><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

[Quijonsith]

<div><blockquote><hr>BlaseBlase wrote:<blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div> You think strength is completely useless? Once  more I laugh.  Do yall even read any of the abilities in the achievement lines?  Skull crack isn't just an attack, it's one heck of a debuff witih one of the shortest cast times we can get.  <font color="#ffff00">The text doesn't say anything about if it works on epics like woundurous buckling says so I don't know if it works on epics or not.  Probably not, but it's great for PvP.</font>  Heck, if you're a PvP templar the strength line is great.  Between that debuff (which is also an interrupt), Bolt of Power for a damage and interrupt proc (who's % to proc goes up with more points), Unwavering resolve for increased Focus and Disruption (less spell resists and less interrupts/fizzles), and last but not least Steadfast which grants you immunity to stifles and interrupts, the strength line just screams "use me in PvP".  Especially against fighters who can interrupt us with their taunts. <hr></blockquote>From personal experience raiding.. it works on epics =)  With two clerics in your raid backing each other up on this debuff, that mob dmg drops noticably.  It almost seems like stacking that debuff on top of all the other junk that lands from other raid members creates the tipping point for turning a PITA mob into a kitten.  I'll admit it does have a hard time sticking, but when it does the MT rarely drops below 75%.  Was originally int/sta myself, but after looking at Skullcrack I respec'd to that line and don't regret it at all.  The focus bonus in the str also seems to help quite a bit with interupts from AEs or even epic trash agro.  Another thing about the int line; faster casting is nice but that just means you'll run out of power quicker and the rest of the int line really isn't worth much to me (maybe the final int would have been, but never tried it).  After some math and experimenting, I found that the crit heals made the biggest diff in my healing output.  I agree that anyone who looks at the int line and thinks it's the obvious choice should play around some, because they're missing a chance at finding something better. My AA line: Str - 4/8/5/8 Sta - 4/4/8/8 <div></div><hr></blockquote>I thougth it might work on epics since it didn't say "unless epic".  Good to hear.  How's it scale? Does the debuff amount or duration increase with more points?</div>

[thesilverf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quijonsith wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>I know you didn't denounce any other threads.  I was mroe responding to the person above you.  The line I took from your post just fit in with what I was responding to.  I will say that "For Raiding it's Heal crit chance and Cast timers" by itself sounds like you're trying to state fact, hense close minded.  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff>OK, I'll edit my post so everyone knows it's just my opinion.... </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I never said that choosing those two were the least thought out.  Just that they require the least thought to see the benefit.  <FONT color=#6666ff><--Now i clearly see the difference :rollseyes</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>AE immunity, the long recast time doesn't make it worth it except in certain situations IMO, as I already said.  As far as Gorenaire, I was thinking it might work against the knockbacks she uses.  Don't know if it would or not.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Probably not.  If you manage to block one in a two minute fight your still going to have to deal with 2-3 more.  With rogues you may even miss an AE. </FONT><BR><BR>As far as the gear needed for shield ally, you obviously don't pay much attention to plate tanks, especially crusaders.  In my healing gear I only have one piece of chain and one piece of cloth.  The Mantle of the Orate and the Golden Efreeti Boots.  The rest is all plate and I have more avoidance without my shield then shamans do in full chain and druids in leather.  You think I sacrifice resists? I have gauntlets with every resists aswell as +5 defense.  In a raid group I don't need to max my own wisdom.  The group puts me over the cap as it is so I'm not sacrificing wisdom.  Plate with +def nets you more avoidance than changing a piece from plate to chain.  Then there's the voodoo doll of valor.  +wis and +def.  If i'm in a fight where resists are important (like gorenaire) I have jewelry for that.  I have no problem getting my avoidance to 28% by myself.  If I have to break out alot of resist gear then my avoidance is only 25%.  Wow, big sacrifice.  When it comes to long raid fights I have more power left at the end of the fight than even most of our druids who have 1k or more power greater than I do because I have alot of flowing thought gear.  Total power is more important in short, mana intensive fights, but in long drawn out fights flowing thought wins.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>I do pay attention to plate tanks thank you, but having never geared up my agility It's not something I've given a lot of thought to.  I'll concede that point to you. With CP on the tank, I cap on wis no problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff></FONT><BR>So you get to reduce cast and recast timers of the group for 30 seconds every 3 minutes.  That means the whole group runs out of power faster.  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>No, DR does nothing to recast timers, it's recover and casting only.  Even if it did shorten recast we wouldn't run out of power.  Just because a spell is available doesn't mean we are spamming them.  As I said  I get the most use from it if a MT group member goes down, that way the tank is rebuffed very quickly. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>A good MT group with a well geared tank and good healers don't need the recast timer reduction.  Shield Ally is always active.  Its benefits are constant.  Not just 30 seconds out of 3 minutes.  When a mob can autoattack for 4k and I can block said hits, aswell as combat arts like debilitate and dispatch, Shield Ally becomes invaluable.  My raid leaders always prefer me in the MT group because of this buff.  My job is damage prevention and this ability does it very well.  And it's not just against trash mobs.  I block hits from nameds all the time.  The most benefit from this ability is against raids full of more mobs at once.  Normally all those hits would eat right through reactives, but instead most of them get eatin by shield ally and our stone skin spell.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>Most of them? Implying what 50%?  I read over the thread you had on shiled ally again, and I saw 117 hits over 2+ hours.  Granted that's probably not constant combat, and not maxed I take it?  The other poster in your thread had some data up but I can't seem to read it now.  I will say you've piqued my interest and I'm going to try it out now.  I never said it wasn't against named, I said we don't need it against trash.  most trash barely gets past the wards. </FONT><BR><BR>As far as more time for nukes, what the heck are you doing nuking in a raid?  The recast reduction will burn your power more already from heals, much less chain nuking faster.  If I'm in the MT group I might throw out warring axiom, but that's it.  If i'm in a melee dps group I might turn DPS and nuke, but never from the MT group.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666ff>I'm always in the MT group. Again, I don't have a recast reduction.  I nuke on trash fights and some named because what else am i going to do?  We roll with 2-3 clerics most nights, and the majority of trash is a walk.  On them I have Reverence DI, and MoC to take care of then what, sit around?  @ SPurns is almost as useless as one, with all the other mit debuffs on a mob.  I rarely run out of power and know the fights i need to worry about it on, when obviously i don't nuke.  On fights where my group reactive times out rather than wears out, I might as well help to make the fight shorter, even if the contribution is minimal.  With Flowing thought from gear @52, a Coercer with master buffs, sometimes a dirge, Shards, Hearts, Manastone, Clarity potions, Vessel, and a decent power pool, why just sit there?  Hell in labs I'm using yaulp and the doomhammer, keeps me from getting bored. </FONT><BR><BR>But in the end as I keep saying it all comes down to what you want to buff.  The only real point I was originally making was that Devine Recovery and Heal Crit are not the only way to go for raiding.  I'm sick of so many templars spreading that nonsense and ignoring the benefits of other lines.  Then new templars with questions about achievements buy into it and don't even look at the other lines.  Like I said, my response was more geared toward the person above yours.  Your line just fit in with what I responded to.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Overall I like the fact that my cures are quicker, Dire Int casts quicker, when I do need them Direct heals cast quicker.  I'll try out this Shield ally, jsut cause I have the time, and now I want to see how it parses.  Maybe one of us would be better served with it.  Now I'm going to have to hunt down some agility gear.</P> <P>One question though. Your parse was in a heroic zone.  does the avoidanec check work differently against epics?  </P>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div>You've made some good points.  I think we'll both agree the AE immunity is a little too situational.  I hear it's very useful in the Roost x2 zone in the adventure pack (man, I am major brain farting here for the full name of that zone and the adventure pack).  On the thought out thing, yeah I didn't clerify very well my PoV at all.  When I say that it requires the least thought, I'm saying that it's benefits and potential are extremely plain and obvious to anyone looking at templar achievements.  When I read "least thought out" to me that's like saying "I like the numbers and stopped at that.  I never bothered to come up with alot of situations it is beneficial because I don't need to think of them".  The "least thought out" just kinda sounded condescending to me, which I wasn't trying to be.  Of course there are many, like yourself, who have put alot of thought into Divine Recovery.  I've just seen too many take it "just because" without considering any other abilities because this one is so obvious.  In other words, people who think it's "the only way to go" or "the only route for the true healer".  Hope that clears up what I meant.Blocking most of the hits: yeah, you're right.  Shield ally and my stone skin by themselves sure as heck don't absorb "most" of the attacks from a large group.  But they do create a substantial amount of damage absorbtion.  The point I wanted to make was that in a situation with alot of mobs in one group our reactives would be eatin up well before the recast was up, but shield ally and stone skin are still going.Shield Ally: far as what I said about not paying attenton to tanks, I didn't mean to sound so mean now that I read it again.  I get carried away sometimes.  Sry bout that.  I'm not entirely sure we need the avoidance overall.  In my latest testing shield ally appears to only work when we have a shield equipped.  I dont know if increasing our base avoidance makes a difference.  I do carry the Bulwark of the Brave specifically for shield ally.  Only round shield we can use.  666 protection.  Aside from that shield I'd try out shield ally with your normal gear first and see how it does, but that's my own curiosity.  Wouldn't want you to waiste money on +def gear if you find you don't like shield ally or find that it does well enough without the +def gear.Devine Recovery: my apologies.  I misunderstood how it worked.  I haven't read it in a long time.  Cast timer reduction for clerics is indeed a huge benefit as long as our spells take to cast, and faster casting cures is indeed a very handy thing.  I hadn't considered cure casting.Nuking:  In standard groups I generally go all out DPS with my lotto heals taking care of things unless the poo hits the fan.  Then I might break out standard healing.  In raids for some reason I shift into healer mode.  I've been on the top spot of the heal parse for every raid I've been on.  I keep my reactives up fairly constantly aswell as MoC, IC, and Spurn (I have master 1 spurn, 1k phys mitigation is a decent amount, my way of helping burn it faster).  I don't generally do much if any offense unless I'm in a melee DPS group (which only happens if I raid outside the League), or against group x2 trash.  I can easily see reason to nuke, esp on trash.  I just wind up with the full blown healer mentality when I'm in the MT group.  I try to stay ready for anything, such as roamers, adds, pops, etc.  No matter how many times we do a zone I try not to become complacent.  That's when the poo really can hit the fan <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>Like I say, it all really comes down to what you want to buff or how you see your character.  I've always played Goddli as a melee, in the fray, battle cleric.  Shield Ally just fits me too well.  My way isn't the only way anymore than DR is.  <p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 PM</span>

[Whitemane]

<P>Well I tried to resist the temptation to respond to this:</P> <P>===================</P> <P>So you get to reduce cast and recast timers of the group for 30 seconds every 3 minutes.  That means the whole group runs out of power faster.  A good MT group with a well geared tank and good healers don't need the recast timer reduction.  Shield Ally is always active.  Its benefits are constant.  Not just 30 seconds out of 3 minutes.  When a mob can autoattack for 4k and I can block said hits, aswell as combat arts like debilitate and dispatch, Shield Ally becomes invaluable.  My raid leaders always prefer me in the MT group because of this buff.  My job is damage prevention and this ability does it very well.  And it's not just against trash mobs.  I block hits from nameds all the time.  The most benefit from this ability is against raids full of more mobs at once.  Normally all those hits would eat right through reactives, but instead most of them get eatin by shield ally and our stone skin spell.</P> <P>==============</P> <P>Buuuuut I failed. Ok First re: Cast Timer Reduction. What 2 Healers are "Always" in the MT group ( assuming they're available )? A Templar and a Defiler. OK so what 2 Healers have the slowest cast times for their heals etc.. If you said Templars and Defilers you are correct! Any cast reduction you can get as a templar is great and DR has saved my Tank many a time in allowing us to throw out out heals / debuffs / Taunts etc / in the first few seconds of a pull or for when you have a Awww hell moment. Your shield Ally is yet another "lotto heal" dont get me wrong from your parses it seems "Ok" but well DR always works its dependable and I'd bet the extra I get from the crit heals line out heals the total damage blocked via the shield line. Its situational to a degree yes.</P> <P>As for the run out of power too soon ... Ummm yeah.No.</P> <P> I sit at 6k power self buffed I get around 6500 ish Raid buffed depending who else in the MT group. My incombat FT is maxed ( not hard in t7 ). Even with using DR Im almost always the last healer to go OOP. The only fights I have any issues with are The Crab or Tarinax If you are running out of power on much else your raid isnt doing enough DPS ;P.  ( and my resists are all 4500 - 7k in normal gear I can get to 11k in anything as needed with resist gear so thats not an issue either ) Hehe and I still wear a t4 piece of gear ( ring of the nightblood hehehe embarassing but hey it was hard back in the day and it is BoM 7 darnit ;p )</P> <P>Sorry but selecting Shield Ally over DR because you'll run out of power faster just struck me as ... well wrong.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted</P>

[Whitemane]

<P>Opps and To respond to the origonal Poster.  Theres no problem with going with more wisdom for your racial abilities ( its probably one of the more overall useful ones besides the power regen and power pool ones ) But I wouldnt go up the wis AA line as well you will ludicruously over the wisdom cap as it is once you get to level 70 so its wasted and unless SoE releases a ALL undead all the Time expansion you wont get too much use out of most of the abilities in the line so its somewhat limited in that regard. </P> <P> </P> <P>Hope it helps!</P> <P>Gemmas 70 Templar Exalted</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ryzorian wrote:<BR> <DIV>Heya. I'm a relatively new Templar (level 2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I play on the Venekor PvP server, and am trying to find an AA build that will suit me as both a raid healer, and a PvP Templar. After reading some posts here, I've decided to focus on the Int and Sta lines. Int gives me faster casting times and that wonderful Divine Recovery ability, while Sta increases my survival in PvP, gives me a blur/knockdown (major since I get jumped by Assassins/Brigands/SK's all the time), and increases my heal crit rate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've noticed one interesting thing however - no one puts points into Wisdom. Is there a reason for this? We're taught early on that wisdom determines our power pool (and spell resists) and is therefore a primary stat for us. Yet I see essentially zero builds that involve increasing wisdom. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guess is that there must be a cap on stats, and wisdom must be easily reached. Could anyone give me some advice on this? For example, I've picked Wisdom as my 8 and 28 stat increase, and now I'm wondering if that was a mistake. Should I not put any more into wisdom and focus on something else instead? Thanks for the input. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div><div>Whitemane, please actually read posts I make after what you respond to.<blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:Devine Recovery: my apologies.  I misunderstood how it worked.  I haven't read it in a long time.  Cast timer reduction for clerics is indeed a huge benefit as long as our spells take to cast, and faster casting cures is indeed a very handy thing.  I hadn't considered cure casting.....Like I say, it all really comes down to what you want to buff or how you see your character.  I've always played Goddli as a melee, in the fray, battle cleric.  Shield Ally just fits me too well.  My way isn't the only way anymore than DR is.  <hr></blockquote>I thought it reduced recast timers.  I was wrong.  As far as choosing shield ally over divine recovery, I've said TIME AND AGAIN why I chose it in other threads and this one.  It sure as heck isn't because of possibly running out of mana, and I surely don't have mana problems in raids.  Like you I usually have amongst the most percentage of my power left at the end of the fight.  The 30 seconds of cast time reductions can save the day in some cases, yes.  Guess what, so can shield ally.  Many times I've blocked the first hit, simultaneous hits, back to back hits, or hits that might have otherwise killed the tank as he had low HP at that split second.  Both are excellent raid and group abilities.  You buff how you want and I'll buff how I want.  Yes, Shield ally is another lotto heal.  It's a lotto heal that is totally negating hits that would other wise land in the thousands.  Personally I like have alot of lotto heals.  By themselves they can do somewhat respectable healing.  All of the stacked is subtantial healing.Oh, and as far as your heal crit alone accounting for as much or more than the hits shield ally absorbs, that is possible.  I have no way of truely comparing that nor do I want to.  I don't see why you even brought that up though.  At what point did I shoot down heal crit?  I can combine heal crit with shield ally just like you can combine it with divine recovery.  Divine recovery lets you cure faster for 30 seconds along with every other spell casting faster.  Shield Ally can block combat arts to include debilitate and dispatch.  At the end of the day we both get the job done, but if you think I only chose shield ally because of mana issues you've obviously been ignoring every post I've ever made about shield ally, even though you've responded to them in my testing thread.The final note I'll make is that having ACT setup to play a sound in real time any time I block has brought me a much better appreciation of the spell than my parsing alone could have.</div><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>09-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 PM</span>

[ScurvyTRatt]

<DIV>Sorry to jump in a little late, but here is my 2 coppers and a few questions that you all might be able to answer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for me, I'm a 70 templar on Nagafen. I PvP all the time, and find the biggest disadvantage that Templars get in PvP is long cast times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Naturally, I took the int line and the strength line since they seemed to be the best suited for PvP. While the cast time reducers are nice, they still aren't enough to get me down to warden cast speed. Or low enough to be able to react to the crazyness of who gets hit in pvp. Its very difficult to predict who is going to be the target of the big hits in a big pvp. Most of the good PvPers hold their trump card attacks until the taunt wears off and they have that poor cloth caster, or leather priest targeted. Divine recovery is great, and spells that pulse (like call of storms) do double pulses while under the effect of divine recovery. Strength is great for the power bolt, skull crack and the extra disruption. I did not pick up the end ability because being rooted pretty much excludes its use from pvp. Staying in one place is just asking for decap fusion combos. The only end line ability that interests me is the divine recovery so I am happy to mix and match the rest of my points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to ask more about the agility line. After looking at PvP parses it looks like avoidence goes a long way compared to mitigation not only is it more effective against players, it also helps you avoid being interrupted. If you just pick up the 8 agility stat hits on the first box, how much avoidence does that give you (roundabouts)? Agi is my worst stat by a mile, (only 60 self buffed, and thus my avoidance sucks) Shield ally does look nice, and being able to drop that on a cloth caster in PvP would be a great way to help their survivability. While the AE group immunity is great, having a recast longer than 1 minute makes it uninteresting (its nice to block an AE but not worth 8 points to be able to block one AE pulse in one epic encounter).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My goal is to improve my PvP group ability via AAs. My biggest frustrations/weaknesses are not getting any spells off (due to stuns interruptions etc) and not getting them off in time (decap takes victim down to 30%, Xolia begins to cast a healing spell, victim dies). I am very open to ideas, even some crazy stuff and have some cash to blow on respecs.</DIV>

[BlaseBlase]

<blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:<div><blockquote><div></div>I thougth it might work on epics since it didn't say "unless epic".  Good to hear.  How's it scale? Does the debuff amount or duration increase with more points? </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>The debuff scales up as you put more points in, but the refresh and duration stay the same.  20sec duration, 30sec recast--if I remember it right.  At 8 points the debuff is -32 to all the atk skills; basically drops that mob a little over 6 levels.  Unfortunately for me, my raid leader just noticed that I was meleeing today, and now he watches me like a hawk when I'm covering the MT... NO MT GROUP HEALERS IN CLOSE RANGE!  DON'T JOUST!  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] AND HEAL!  lol  And no I've never died doing it, he just happened to catch me scuttling out of the healer cluster and back again.  <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Quijonsith]

Thanks BlaseBlase.  My raid leaders have actually paid close attention to my achievements since explaining to them what I use.  They are very out of the box thinkers, aka they use sense.  If anyone it should be clerics closer to the mob.  We're the one's in plate.  My raid leaders trust all of the raid members to know how to play their classes and show enthusiastic interest when those of us demonstrate alternative builds and abilities.  The only thing they ever actually mandate of the raid members is for the DPS to target the MA and not the mobs so that we can coordinate the beginning of burning down the mobs.  Heck they trust me to use my hammer pet for some of the pulls on raids and even to get us past nameds for relic farming in labs.Anyway, thanks for the clarification of how much it debuffs.  That's nice.../drool<div></div>