What level does Templar DPS begin to suck?

[Giff]

Just wondering, mine is only level 12 but so far I have no problems soloing, and that is without even fighting undead, where I would really shine...I think I will have no problems getting to 20 solo, if I choose, which is almost 1/3 of the way through the game...<div></div>

[110euph]

<DIV>Level 1 is 1 quest long.  Level 2 is also 1 quest long.  Both of those can be done in under 2 minutes, if you don't take your time and read the text.  The levels get bigger as you go.  They take longer to obtain.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in Temple of Cazic Thule for 8 hours on Friday, pulling constantly with a good friend, both of us having very high level (me 67 and 62, him 70 and 6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> characters - not newbies, but people who understand the game and have been playing EQ2 since launch.  I went in at just at 2% into level 38, he went in at 20% into level 39.  I had 100% vitality.  In the 8 hours we were there, our group size changed and our pulling style changed, but we were doing constant pulls as fast as we could the whole time.  When I logged (I was late getting to my D&D session) I had JUST hit level 41.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference?  2 minutes for level 2 and 3.  8 hours for levels 39 and 40.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>20 is not a third of the way through. The game begins to slow down around level 8, and by level 15 you will be leveling much more slowly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a 41 templar, soloing is mostly a matter of waiting out the mob.  I cast my DoT, HO/nuke/nuke, heal.  HO/nuke/nuke, heal.  DoT, HO/nuke/nuke, heal... it's safe, but time consuming.</DIV>

[Goozman]

<DIV>It never sucks if you keep updating your weapon and damage spells appropriately. And also choose the right aa's; if that's your inclination. And level 20 is not even near 1/3 the game :smileytongue: 68-70 takes quite a bit mroe time than 1-20.</DIV>

[Giff]

So we have one person saying the dps never sucks and another saying maybe around level 41ish?And 2 saying 1/3 of the levels is not 1/3 of the game...I don't count the length based on time taken, since you could sit at max level for years...Anyway, so I hear all these people on the forums claiming templars cannot solo except grays and whatnot...just want to know what level this is, so I know what level I HAVE to be grouping.I'm also playing on a pvp server if that matters (cannot stand just pve anymore)...<div></div>

[110euph]

<DIV>As master Yoda says....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will know.</DIV>

[Nari]

<P>*snort*  Master Yoda is funny.</P> <P> </P> <P>It really depends on what you want to do.  Things are pretty easy because creatures don't have a significant amount of hitpoints until t3.  Once I got in the middle of my armor quests, I wanted a group with me.  You might feel different, but even one other person can make a world of difference for us.</P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Giffen wrote:Just wondering, mine is only level 12 but so far I have no problems soloing, and that is without even fighting undead, where I would really shine...I think I will have no problems getting to 20 solo, if I choose, which is almost 1/3 of the way through the game...<div></div><hr></blockquote>It starts when you make an alt that has dps. Soloing a templar is not an issue by itself, my lvl 70 templar can propably solo tougher mobs than my monk. But - it just takes a lot longer and that means adds will be an issue. Then again, even a group of 3 lvl 60's will present a huge difficulty to my templar but my monk can kill 10 of those at a time. And this difference is because of interrupts. But till you have played a real DPS class, you will not know the difference.<div></div>

[Giff]

I have played a "real dps" class through the same levels...the monk does seem to do best, compared to my zerker, or my other rogue classes.  However, the difference is not that great.  Sure against huge numbers you are going to get interupted but then thats your own fault for trying to solo 6 mobs at once.I assume against undead mobs Templars can solo fairly well, though I haven't found a good spot of undead at my level, 13 I think now...but double damage on the one dd spell should mean the mobs go down in one Heroic Opp. at most.<div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>In the process of levelling up a character (any class), as others have already said, level 20 is not 1/3 of the way, really it is probably more like 1% of the way, because of the way levels get larger and larger as you get higher.</P> <P>At level 12, you have barely begun, and at that sort of level range, the differences between the abilities of characters is a lot smaller.</P> <P>When levelling up a Templar, you will see the <EM>relative</EM> DPS you have compared to other classes will gradually fall, especially compared to the very high DPS classes. At what level you consider it "sucks" is a personal judgement, but certainly by level 30 or so, your solo DPS will be a long way behind most other classes. I know that at the time, my level 30 Fury had about the same <EM>parsed DPS</EM> against even con mobs as my Templar had at about level 55. Now, that was pre-LU#20/21, and things have improved a little since then, of course.</P> <P>For lower level Templars, before you start developing some of the Achievement Point skills, your solo DPS will be very poor if you compare it to other classes. That said, really, Templar DPS ought to be poor compared to classes that, for example, cannot heal, or things wouldn't be fair.</P> <P>I suggest if you enjoy playing the healer, then keep going until at least* level 30 or 35 before making a firm decision. However, if you really want to be able to have good solo DPS at lower levels, then Templar is not a good class choice. In my opinion, the best option between healing and DPS at low levels is the Fury.</P> <P>Make your choice. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[110euph]

<DIV>My first serious character was a Ranger.  Said Ranger is now level 67, and I can pull no arrow even con mobs with my bow and have them at least half dead before they arrive to me.  If I use my 15 minute recast Sniper shot to pull, no arrow white cons don't even get to me. They die where they stand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's a DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar is a LOT of fun for healing a group.  I don't like soloing, but ya gotta do somethin while you're LFG. =)</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Woot, time for me to get this thread locked.</P> <P>Here we go, Have you been to Thundering Steppes yet? Have you seen those huge pits out there? My Templar Xlrate (of Befallen) dug all of those pits out there, with a spoon while trying to solo just the last 2% i needed so I could ding to make Blood Talon con yellow to me. Yes it took weeks to do, but I did it, with a spoon and a crutch. That 2% was hard but fortunately everybody else on their way by would throw their little nukes or auto attack for a few seconds and shorten my job by a full 5 to 10 minutes. </P> <P>Seriously, if you like to solo, DO NOT play a Templar. Worst DPS in game by far. If we specalise all 50 of our AA's into DPS at level 70 we can parse what a level 40 Fury with 10 AA's parse. Now in my Templars defense, he is in almost all Fabled gear with a nice selection of Legendary, and almost every master spell at his tier at his disposal. So I am about average (of the 50 last templars remaining in the game.). Every other spell is Adept 3. Has been like that since level 37. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I started yet another new character recently, A Swashbuckler, and am having an absolute blast with him, some decent Utility from what I see, Good strong melee skills, positional attacks. Just a balst.</P> <P>Anyways, Good luck on whatever you decide. If you do want to know the least painful places to level I will be more than happy to send you a list but most of them will require grouping. Just send me a PM.</P> <P>Oh and the smart alleck answer to your question? 1. It just keeps getting worse from there.</P>

[Kendricke]

<P>For some actual constructive and productive methods by which you can improve your solo DPS abilities, there exist several topics already on the subject.  Alternatively, you could send me a private message.   I seem to be getting quite a few PM's from younger Templars these days who are just looking for help and suggestions on the Templar forums, but who keep finding answers that amount to "play a <EM>real</EM> class". </P> <P>There does exist a great many Templars who not only excel at playing to the strengths of our class...but who also love the class.  I'm certain that it shouldn't take you much time to realize who some of those Templars are.  Look for their answers to your questions and follow their advice.</P> <P>Templar is a strong class with many powerful benefits.  As with all classes, there are weaknesses, but overall the class is widely considered one of the most popular for a reason. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 AM</span>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Templar is a strong class with many powerful benefits.  As with all classes, there are weaknesses, but overall the class is widely considered one of the most popular for a reason. </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>07-10-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Templars used to be the most popular because we were considered the best healers and could get all the group cures. </P> <P>I don't see 1/2 as many templars around as pre combat revamp so I don't know if we would be considered one of the most popular now.<BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <P>I don't see 1/2 as many templars around as pre combat revamp so I don't know if we would be considered one of the most popular now.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Per EQ2census.com:</P> <P>Level 20-70, priest classes, all servers: </P> <OL> <LI>Templar 40136</LI> <LI>Fury 37830</LI> <LI>Warden 25191</LI> <LI>Mystic 24036</LI> <LI>Inquisitor 21308</LI> <LI>Defiler 16881</LI></OL> <P>Level 60-70 (Tier 7), priest classes, all servers:</P> <OL> <LI>Templar 4270</LI> <LI>Fury 3847</LI> <LI>Warden 2401</LI> <LI>Mystic 2199</LI> <LI>Inquisitor 2050</LI> <LI>Defiler 1453</LI></OL> <P>In fact, Templars are also the most popular priest in every Tier <EM>except</EM> Tiers 1 and 2 (where Furies and Wardens are more popular).  So, above level 20...Templars are consistently the most popular priest class at every levelling bracket...once again illustrating that personal perception is not often the best source for factual information.</P> <P> </P>

[Giff]

<P>Where can i find a spell list that lists the damage/stats of each spell? This way I can compare on paper the higher level damage spells to see if it really drops off compared to other priest classes like everyone says.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also are you guys counting fighting against undead in your numbers, that one nuke does double damage against them?</P> <P> </P> <P>On one hand I like the group char, but if other priests have just as good groupability but can also solo (remember im on a pvp server too) then there is no reason to play a templar except its easier and cheaper to get spell books off the broker...</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kizee wrote: <div></div> <p>I don't see 1/2 as many templars around as pre combat revamp so I don't know if we would be considered one of the most popular now.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Per EQ2census.com:</p> <p>Level 20-70, priest classes, all servers: </p> <ol> <li>Templar 40136</li> <li>Fury 37830</li> <li>Warden 25191</li> <li>Mystic 24036</li> <li>Inquisitor 21308</li> <li>Defiler 16881</li></ol> <p>Level 60-70 (Tier 7), priest classes, all servers:</p> <ol> <li>Templar 4270</li> <li>Fury 3847</li> <li>Warden 2401</li> <li>Mystic 2199</li> <li>Inquisitor 2050</li> <li>Defiler 1453</li></ol> <p>In fact, Templars are also the most popular priest in every Tier <em>except</em> Tiers 1 and 2 (where Furies and Wardens are more popular).  So, above level 20...Templars are consistently the most popular priest class at every levelling bracket...once again illustrating that personal perception is not often the best source for factual information.</p> <hr></blockquote>Perhaps the reason they aren't so popular in T1 and T2, is because no one continues to play them after that?  Taking census data (which includes inactive players by the way) is only a small piece of the puzzle.    According to this there are only 183,295 characters in the entire game.  Now, I've got 10 of those so.... even if everyone only had 2 chars per account, are you saying there are only 91,648 subscribers? </div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <p>In fact, Templars are also the most popular priest in every Tier <em>except</em> Tiers 1 and 2 (where Furies and Wardens are more popular).  So, above level 20...Templars are consistently the most popular priest class at every levelling bracket...once again illustrating that personal perception is not often the best source for factual information.</p> <hr></blockquote>Most popular class =! most characters of that class. If you really want to compare the popularity, you need to find out which classes are played the most. The reason why there are so many high level templars in game is not that templars <i>are</i> a popular class. The reason is that templars <i>were</i> a popular class. My templar is lvl 70 because after taking my main to end, I had time. My templar has 23 aa while my main has had 50 for a long time now. Most of my templars aa's are from leftover collections. And no, I do not think that my preferences are those of the majority. But here is the news, neither are yours. BTW, the relative amount of templars is dropping. Templars used to be a huge majority and now there are barely more templars than the next class. When I wrote this, there were 16 templars online, 5 inquisitors, 11 wardens, 22 furies, 12 mystics and 9 defilers. Based on that and your figures, templars are not the most popular class. Furies are with mystics in second place (this by comparing existing classes from your post vs. classes online at my server).<div></div>

[Sokolov]

Considering how long Shamans were broken, those numbers are looking pretty good for us!<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Perhaps the reason they aren't so popular in T1 and T2, is because no one continues to play them after that?  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Templars are the most numerous/populated priest class from level 20-30, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60, and 60-70.  If no one is continuing to play them past level 10 or 20...where are all the Templars coming from?  If anything, the logic would apply to Furies and Wardens...both of which take a relative drop (a rather significant one, mind you) past level 20 in comparison to Templars. </P> <P>To answer other concerns raised, EQ2census regularly reports on active players (based on which characters are actually gaining levels...not merely sitting around unplayed), as well as level 70 characters.  Consistently since March 2006 (when they began tracking such numbers), Templars show the highest active character count of any priest class above level 20. </P> <P>Take the numbers as you wish, but truly, it's hard to say that Templars are somehow "unpopular" based purely on that.  You can argue what "popularity" really refers to, but no matter how you cut it, Templars are consistently played and available across the servers in aggregate.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[Bjerde]

Templars are great healers for PvP, but Furies are so popular on PvP servers because they get better DPS and they have much faster cast times. Interrupts is a huge problem in PvP, for all priests. The heals don't need to be huge, they just need to be there. Warden is good too, plus they get evac. If you want to be one of the few, stay Templar and groups will be happy to get you. But soloing on a PvP server will be hard, you will die a lot. You will die as a healer in general because everyone beelines it to the healer.That said, Furies are a dime a dozen in PvP. At higher lvls when you try to do things like Prismatic 1.0, you will be much needed for there are far too few Templars on the PvP servers.Odinn 70 Templar BlackburrowSlang 51 Dirge Venekor

[Nari]

I couldn't resist playing the defiler on pvp because I would be kicking your butt while my cute doggie watched.  I thought about making a templar for PvP because I would like to be rolling around in plate when everyone is out to kill me.  I thought that Qeynos already had too much of an advantage, so I went defiler instead.  It had nothing to do with the lack of dps (obviously.)

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>Templars are the most numerous/populated priest class from level 20-30, 30-40, 40-50, 50-60, and 60-70.  If no one is continuing to play them past level 10 or 20...where are all the Templars coming from?  If anything, the logic would apply to Furies and Wardens...both of which take a relative drop (a rather significant one, mind you) past level 20 in comparison to Templars. </p><hr></blockquote>Most numerous healing class yes. Most popular? Most played? The numbers in my server indicate that templars are neither. People who have templar rather play some other class. They do level up the templar for various reasons (I did too) but they dont play them. That is the only conclusion from your numbers and the online numbers. Current logins are 22 templars online, 11 inquisitors, 16 wardens, 32 furies, 22 mystics and 9 defilers. No comments? <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>Which server, Timaarit?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whenever I present facts, I try to cite sources, and any and all relevant information.  Context matters.  It matters a lot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, of those 22 Furies, how many are level 20+?  Is your server a Europeon server - if not, how can we judge your numbers as representative since it's not even close to primetime for most servers?   These are factors which help to determine what can be done with numbers.  Those are factors which determine context.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Facts without context are just words on paper.  Without context, there's no meaning to the facts.  More to the point, there's no way to determine the validity of the facts provided in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div>Which server, Timaarit?  </div> <div> </div> <div>Whenever I present facts, I try to cite sources, and any and all relevant information.  Context matters.  It matters a lot.  </div> <div> </div> <div>For example, of those 22 Furies, how many are level 20+?  Is your server a Europeon server - if not, how can we judge your numbers as representative since it's not even close to primetime for most servers?   These are factors which help to determine what can be done with numbers.  Those are factors which determine context.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Facts without context are just words on paper.  Without context, there's no meaning to the facts.  More to the point, there's no way to determine the validity of the facts provided in the first place.</div> <hr></blockquote>Server is Nektulos. And besides the point. You are always accusing me of lying and once proven wrong, you fall silent or try to divert attention elsewhere. Like now to level issue. Level has nothing to do with this since only the number online tells about how many people actually plays a character. If there are 1000 templars and 100 fury, the fury is more popular class if the furies are played more. This means that if 50 templars and 60 furies are online, furies are more popular class. No matter, you cannot verify the numbers since they change by the hour. 28 templars online (11 lvl60+, 4 <lvl20), 15 inquisitors, 22 wardens, 39 furies (17 lvl 60+, 7 <lvl20), 24 mystics and 16 defilers is current number. Anyway, like you notice from the numbers with templar and fury, you had no point in your questions, the ratio is roughly the same. All this proves even more strongly the point that you are wrong, templars are not the most popular class. BTW, one thing was noticeable, 9 of the furies were lvl 70 while only 3 of the templars were. Now what can you invent of that? Oh, and referring to your last sentence, it has never been me who is the first to make conclusions out of something. It has always been you. Like this time, you posted some numbers and make conclusions without taking YOUR OWN advice. Seems like you have different rules for my posts than your own. <div></div>

[Giff]

<P>When trying to determine which class is more popular you also might want to take into the fact of whether the class is available to both cities or not.  At least on pvp servers this is like asking the question: </P> <P>"Out of all the classes you can be which one do you choose?"</P> <P> </P> <P>Thus for classes that are both, maybe cut that in half to compare to classes that can only be from one city.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giffen wrote:<BR> <P>When trying to determine which class is more popular you also might want to take into the fact of whether the class is available to both cities or not.  At least on pvp servers this is like asking the question: </P> <P>"Out of all the classes you can be which one do you choose?"</P> <P> </P> <P>Thus for classes that are both, maybe cut that in half to compare to classes that can only be from one city.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Irrelevent

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Now what can you invent of that?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're using "/who all" searches, right?</P> <P>Try this sometime:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG>/anon<BR>/who templar</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If it's anything like mine, you'd see something like this in your log:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] /who search results for South Qeynos:<BR>(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] ------------------------------------------<BR>(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] [70 Templar] Kendricke (Human) <Legion of the White Rose> Zone: South Qeynos<BR>(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] 1 player found<BR>(1152564040)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:40 2006] You are now anonymous.<BR>(1152564043)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:43 2006] /who search results for South Qeynos:<BR>(1152564043)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:43 2006] ------------------------------------------<BR>(1152564043)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:43 2006] There are no players who match those filters.<BR>(1152564045)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:45 2006] You are no longer anonymous.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now try this:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG>/role<BR>/who templar</STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm going to guess it looks like this in your log:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>(1152564113)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:53 2006] You are now roleplaying.<BR>(1152564117)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:57 2006] /who search results for South Qeynos:<BR>(1152564117)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:57 2006] ------------------------------------------<BR>(1152564117)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:57 2006] There are no players who match those filters.<BR>(1152564120)[Mon Jul 10 15:42:00 2006] You are no longer roleplaying.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The point?  A "/who all" search isn't accurate.  That's context.</P> <P> </P>

[Spondulix]

<P>I'd hate to be the OP checking back on answers to the original thread. </P> <P>Going back to that question, my opinion is that Templar DPS never really varies that much in relation to the tier you're in. Meaning you're not gonna be a DPS beast in tier 3 and not have any DPS in tier 4. You'll have the same spell lines to use during all tiers, with a few additions as you level up. Kendricke has some very nice posts around this area of the forums about how you can maximize your DPS by upgrading spells, choosing AA lines and the right weapons. </P> <P>My input would be that as a templar (and this is my opinion as a PvE player), soloing is only done for entertainment sake. I can, at level 70, solo a 65-66 ^^^ mob, but I would never do it unless I needed a laugh. If you're trying to level, soloing for that purpose stops around lvl 20. It is so time consuming to level by soloing, that it is highly impractical. </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:Now what can you invent of that? <hr> </blockquote> <p>You're using "/who all" searches, right?</p> <p>Try this sometime:</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><strong>/anon/who templar</strong></p></blockquote> <p>If it's anything like mine, you'd see something like this in your log:</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p>(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] /who search results for South Qeynos:(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] ------------------------------------------(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] [70 Templar] Kendricke (Human) <Legion of the White Rose> Zone: South Qeynos(1152564035)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:35 2006] 1 player found(1152564040)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:40 2006] You are now anonymous.(1152564043)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:43 2006] /who search results for South Qeynos:(1152564043)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:43 2006] ------------------------------------------(1152564043)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:43 2006] There are no players who match those filters.(1152564045)[Mon Jul 10 15:40:45 2006] You are no longer anonymous.</p></blockquote> <p>Now try this:</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><strong>/role/who templar</strong></p></blockquote> <p>I'm going to guess it looks like this in your log:</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p>(1152564113)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:53 2006] You are now roleplaying.(1152564117)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:57 2006] /who search results for South Qeynos:(1152564117)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:57 2006] ------------------------------------------(1152564117)[Mon Jul 10 15:41:57 2006] There are no players who match those filters.(1152564120)[Mon Jul 10 15:42:00 2006] You are no longer roleplaying.</p></blockquote> <p>The point?  A "/who all" search isn't accurate.  That's context.</p> <hr></blockquote>So you mean that templars now go anonymous so that no one will recognize them as one? Funny how you once again made a hasty conclusion and actually made me laugh. About the idea of templar being shamed of being templars... But then again, it is kind of your idea since you are the one who thinks that there has to be far more templars than there actually is.<div></div>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Timaarit wrote:</P> <P>So you mean that templars now go anonymous so that no one will recognize them as one?<BR><BR>Funny how you once again made a hasty conclusion and actually made me laugh. About the idea of templar being shamed of being templars... But then again, it is kind of your idea since you are the one who thinks that there has to be far more templars than there actually is.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well what I think he was trying to say is that you can not use the /who templar to figure out how many templars are on line at that given time because of the people that are either /role or /anon.  If any player is one of those you can not tell if they are a gnome, templar or anything...Just there name.<BR>

[Cowdenic]

no, but you can search using the special tools by class. And it will tell you when they were last active.

[Dillin]

<DIV>NM, it isn't worth it</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cybst0rm on <span class=date_text>07-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 PM</span>

[110euph]

<DIV>When I played EQ1 on Tallon Zek, I was always /role (until I hit max level) because I didn't want someone to go /who and see that I was exactly 8 levels under them and then come kick my elven butt.  But now that I do not play on a PvP server here in EQ2, I don't see the point of /role or /anon.  No one actually role plays, so /role doesn't mean what it was intended to, and why would someone be /anon?  If my group needs a scout or a mage and I type /who mage or /who scout, your name won't come up as being either of those... so I won't bother to invite you to my group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, if your LFG tag is up, then people can use the LFG window to find out your level and class... so why bother with /role or /anon?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not trying to be argumentative... I just don't get it.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 110euph wrote:<BR> <DIV>When I played EQ1 on Tallon Zek, I was always /role (until I hit max level) because I didn't want someone to go /who and see that I was exactly 8 levels under them and then come kick my elven butt.  But now that I do not play on a PvP server here in EQ2, I don't see the point of /role or /anon.  No one actually role plays, so /role doesn't mean what it was intended to, and why would someone be /anon?  If my group needs a scout or a mage and I type /who mage or /who scout, your name won't come up as being either of those... so I won't bother to invite you to my group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, if your LFG tag is up, then people can use the LFG window to find out your level and class... so why bother with /role or /anon?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not trying to be argumentative... I just don't get it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For exactly that reason. There are alot of people that do not like to say group outside of guild or only with their good friends etc. etc. Sometimes I am like that also. I have had guildies hand over everything from plat to level 70 master heals even if they got it when we were not grouped together at the time. Thats why I like my guild and thats why I rarely do pick up groups unless I am grinding an alt or a twink up.

[Lydiae]

<P>So far I have not felt that I "have to" group and "cannot" solo.  People saying that are exaggerating.  I've played a number of other classes to lower levels and have not felt my Templar was hugely slower. I do consider improving my damage output when I consider gear and spell upgrades, though I always place healing first.</P> <P>Also other classes may kill things faster than we do, but if they don't kill it fast enough they're dead.  A few deaths worth of downtime can negate the DPS advantage in killing speed pretty quickly.  We have excellent survivability, just stay out of dungeons so you have someplace to run.</P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Schmoogles wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Timaarit wrote:</p> <p>So you mean that templars now go anonymous so that no one will recognize them as one?Funny how you once again made a hasty conclusion and actually made me laugh. About the idea of templar being shamed of being templars... But then again, it is kind of your idea since you are the one who thinks that there has to be far more templars than there actually is.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Well what I think he was trying to say is that you can not use the /who templar to figure out how many templars are on line at that given time because of the people that are either /role or /anon.  If any player is one of those you can not tell if they are a gnome, templar or anything...Just there name.<hr></blockquote>Once again hasty conclusions. I'd say that templars are no more keen to /role or /anon than any other class. Thus the result from search is accurate when it comes to the relative amounts of people playing. Yes, it might not give the correct numbers, but they are not favoring any class either.<div></div>

[Tash 1]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>I didn’t recognise my own reality that Kendricke wrote showed so I just had to look for myself.<BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>I play at Runnyeye and here we go<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>Fury 2372<BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>Warden 1948 <BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>Mystic 1446 <BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>Inquisitor 1420 <BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>Templar 1358<BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>Defiler 1215<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>There seem to be almost 1000 more furys than templar here. And I’m not surprised this is how I feel. Futher more Im the only Templar in our guild with about 100 members.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>I think it might be that Templars has been a popular class so there is a lot inactive templars on old servers. Further it seem that Templar actually do some great stuff in raids so I guess a lot of hardcore raid guilds grinds some for the raids.<BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>But as far as I can see it No Templars is definitely not the most popular priest and I feel as if our numbers is fading.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT size=2>/Tash</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[Archill]

/kicks the topic back in..Unless you are solo'ing undead, the dps will be slow, /but doable/ throughout most of your career if you plan on just solo'ing. In tier 7 it seems to really pick up though. Im having a blast killing solo with my templar. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />--- OT---It seems to me that on AB, templars are a dime a dozen and the rest of the healers are sparse.. even furies. I often find myself in LFG with around 3-5 other templars, enough to make me want to log on my shadowknight. Even on raids, there's a min of 4 templars with us. XD<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

If you spec your AA's with the intelligence line, you'll see a marked increase in your DPS output.  T6 I'd try the Living Tombs or any number of the undead in Sinking Sands.  T7 as the other poster said, just gets better.  <div></div>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Schmoogles wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Timaarit wrote:</P> <P>So you mean that templars now go anonymous so that no one will recognize them as one?<BR><BR>Funny how you once again made a hasty conclusion and actually made me laugh. About the idea of templar being shamed of being templars... But then again, it is kind of your idea since you are the one who thinks that there has to be far more templars than there actually is.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well what I think he was trying to say is that you can not use the /who templar to figure out how many templars are on line at that given time because of the people that are either /role or /anon.  If any player is one of those you can not tell if they are a gnome, templar or anything...Just there name.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Once again hasty conclusions. I'd say that templars are no more keen to /role or /anon than any other class. Thus the result from search is accurate when it comes to the relative amounts of people playing. Yes, it might not give the correct numbers, but they are not favoring any class either.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What don't you understand?  Any way you slice the cookie if you do a /who templar it will not pick up people who are /anon or /role.  So your numbers are completly wrong and can not be used in any agruement.  </P> <P>I use /anon for two reasons.  1) to prevent tells from boters to sell plat  2) so no one knows where I'm at :smileyhappy:</P>

[Giff]

<DIV>The reason he is saying you CAN use /who numbers even knowing it doesn't report /anon or /roleplaying is because, unless you have some reason to believe that one or the other classes has a higher propensity to be /anon or /role then the percentages that go that route will be approximately the same.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This means if you have 100 templars and you assume 20% of all classes are /anon then it will show 80 templars, while if there are 200 furies it will show 160...if the percentage is even across classes (and it tends to be so given large numbers of players) you can infer that the numbers showing nonanon are a good indication of the RELATIVE numbers playing online at that time of each class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This logic can also be used to adjust for doing a /who at one point in time knowing that there are other time zones and prime time playing times....it still won't matter in the agregate unless you have reason to believe that west coast players inordinantly play more Templars than midwest players, or that foreign players play monks 5 times more than US players, for example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shadus]

<div><blockquote><hr>Giffen wrote:I have played a "real dps" class through the same levels...the monk does seem to do best, compared to my zerker, or my other rogue classes.  However, the difference is not that great.  Sure against huge numbers you are going to get interupted but then thats your own fault for trying to solo 6 mobs at once.I assume against undead mobs Templars can solo fairly well, though I haven't found a good spot of undead at my level, 13 I think now...but double damage on the one dd spell should mean the mobs go down in one Heroic Opp. at most.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I can solo any class 1-20 in less than 10 hours played... first 10 levels in less than an hour.  Some faster than others (*twitches remembering his guardian and his mystic*)  Past 20 and more so past mid 30s, leveling speed seriously slows down and mob hit points SERIOUSLY ramp up.   In my 20s my wizard (best single target damage class) was one shotting blues and two shotting whites.  In my mid-late 30s with all master 1's and adept 3's its taking me at least 5-6 shots on blues and 8-12 shots on whites... and each shot is almost 150-175% the size it was of the one I was using in my 20s.  Until about 20 all classes are pretty much even keel... they can all do okie damage and unless you're fighting heroics you don't really take alot of damage.  Things start changing in the twenties... by the mid 30s you're no longer able to play the way you did in your teens... and the mobs keep getting exponentially more hp and harder hits while you keep going up a pretty linear scale on damage increase.  You really don't know how a class plays till you pass 30ish.</div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Schmoogles wrote:<div></div> <p>What don't you understand?  Any way you slice the cookie if you do a /who templar it will not pick up people who are /anon or /role.  So your numbers are completly wrong and can not be used in any agruement.  </p> <p>I use /anon for two reasons.  1) to prevent tells from boters to sell plat  2) so no one knows where I'm at :smileyhappy:</p><hr></blockquote>It seems that YOU are the one who doesn't understand. For each templar /anon or /role, there is one fury /anon or /role. Difficult?<div></div>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Schmoogles wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>What don't you understand?  Any way you slice the cookie if you do a /who templar it will not pick up people who are /anon or /role.  So your numbers are completly wrong and can not be used in any agruement.  </P> <P>I use /anon for two reasons.  1) to prevent tells from boters to sell plat  2) so no one knows where I'm at :smileyhappy:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It seems that YOU are the one who doesn't understand. For each templar /anon or /role, there is one fury /anon or /role. Difficult?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But you can't use them for numbers. Maybe there are no Furys that are /anon. You don't know that.  That is why you CAN'T use /who templar to get CORRECT numbers.   It's really simple.  I understand what you are trying to tell me but it doesn't make sense. You can not use those number to see who has more people logged in or active at any given time on your server. The number are so messed up if you do it doesn't prove any point you are trying to make.  </P> <P>No way shape or form does /who templar give you correct numbers. Period !!</P> <P>Here is an example for you.  If you type /who all eternal chaos on the Befallen server your search will come up with 0 members on line EVERY single time you do that.  When in fact we have 12+ people on at any given time of the day and on peak hours we have 30+ members on.   So just to prove to you since it doesn't seem that you understand what I'm saying.  No way shape or form can you use the /who templar to figure out how many templars or whatever are on at any given time.  It just doesn't work I'm sorry to tell you. Feel free to try to correct me but there is no way to correct me !!  </P><p>Message Edited by Schmoogles on <span class=date_text>07-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giffen wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This means if you have 100 templars and you <STRONG>assume</STRONG> 20% of all classes are /anon then it will show 80 templars, while if there are 200 furies it will show 160...if the percentage is even across classes (and it tends to be so given large numbers of players) you can infer that the numbers showing nonanon are a good indication of the RELATIVE numbers playing online at that time of each class. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's still an assumption.  We have no data one way or the other on which classes are actually using "/anon" or "/role" more than any others.  Without that data, we're simply obfuscucating the issue with assumptions which have no actual basis in fact - only belief.  That's not logic.  Logic demands premise <EM>and</EM> support...not merely supposition and speculation. </P> <P>That's like stopping a scientific method with the hypothesis step.  That's not an attempt at support, merely presumed truth based on personal belief. </P> <P>Moreover, it has little, if anything, to do with the fact that Templars are still a popular class.  By any numbers - ANY numbers presented, Templars are either the first OR second choice of all players choosing priests.  Considering the fact that it's ONLY available in Qeynos...and that it's still outnumbering most other priest classes by at least a 2:1 if not 3:1 margin (no matter which numbers you accept), I'd say that a statement regarding Templars being a popular class is well supported. </P> <P>Whether it's #1 all the time, or just part of the time - it's still a played class.  Anyone who states otherwise should go ask Defilers how they feel about the "unpopularity" of Templars.  Go start a post on Defiler forums telling them how unpopular we Templars are.  In fact, go tell Furies how unpopular we are.  I'm sure those communities would jump at the chance to sympathize the plight of us poor, poor Templars.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Schmoogles wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Schmoogles wrote: <div></div> <p>What don't you understand?  Any way you slice the cookie if you do a /who templar it will not pick up people who are /anon or /role.  So your numbers are completly wrong and can not be used in any agruement.  </p> <p>I use /anon for two reasons.  1) to prevent tells from boters to sell plat  2) so no one knows where I'm at :smileyhappy:</p> <hr> </blockquote>It seems that YOU are the one who doesn't understand. For each templar /anon or /role, there is one fury /anon or /role. Difficult? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>But you can't use them for numbers. Maybe there are no Furys that are /anon. You don't know that.  That is why you CAN'T use /who templar to get CORRECT numbers.   It's really simple.  I understand what you are trying to tell me but it doesn't make sense. You can not use those number to see who has more people logged in or active at any given time on your server. The number are so messed up if you do it doesn't prove any point you are trying to make.  </p> <p>No way shape or form does /who templar give you correct numbers. Period !!</p> <p>Here is an example for you.  If you type /who all eternal chaos on the Befallen server your search will come up with 0 members on line EVERY single time you do that.  When in fact we have 12+ people on at any given time of the day and on peak hours we have 30+ members on.   So just to prove to you since it doesn't seem that you understand what I'm saying.  No way shape or form can you use the /who templar to figure out how many templars or whatever are on at any given time.  It just doesn't work I'm sorry to tell you. Feel free to try to correct me but there is no way to correct me !!  </p><p>Message Edited by Schmoogles on <span class="date_text">07-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>It is called statistics. How do you know there are any templars using /anon besides you? That is right, those numbers can be used. They do have margins for errors, but they still are the only ones that can be used. What Kend presented, is totally unusable because it only lists which classes exist, it give absolutely no indication about what classes people actually play. What I presented, does. If you dont like it, tough luck for you.<div></div>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Schmoogles wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Schmoogles wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>What don't you understand?  Any way you slice the cookie if you do a /who templar it will not pick up people who are /anon or /role.  So your numbers are completly wrong and can not be used in any agruement.  </P> <P>I use /anon for two reasons.  1) to prevent tells from boters to sell plat  2) so no one knows where I'm at :smileyhappy:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It seems that YOU are the one who doesn't understand. For each templar /anon or /role, there is one fury /anon or /role. Difficult?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But you can't use them for numbers. Maybe there are no Furys that are /anon. You don't know that.  That is why you CAN'T use /who templar to get CORRECT numbers.   It's really simple.  I understand what you are trying to tell me but it doesn't make sense. You can not use those number to see who has more people logged in or active at any given time on your server. The number are so messed up if you do it doesn't prove any point you are trying to make.  </P> <P>No way shape or form does /who templar give you correct numbers. Period !!</P> <P>Here is an example for you.  If you type /who all eternal chaos on the Befallen server your search will come up with 0 members on line EVERY single time you do that.  When in fact we have 12+ people on at any given time of the day and on peak hours we have 30+ members on.   So just to prove to you since it doesn't seem that you understand what I'm saying.  No way shape or form can you use the /who templar to figure out how many templars or whatever are on at any given time.  It just doesn't work I'm sorry to tell you. Feel free to try to correct me but there is no way to correct me !!  </P> <P>Message Edited by Schmoogles on <SPAN class=date_text>07-11-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:24 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It is called statistics. How do you know there are any templars using /anon besides you?<BR><BR>That is right, those numbers can be used. They do have margins for errors, but they still are the only ones that can be used. What Kend presented, is totally unusable because it only lists which classes exist, it give absolutely no indication about what classes people actually play. What I presented, does. If you dont like it, tough luck for you.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL - Seriously?   </P> <P>By doing /who templar is like someone asking you to get a list of all the phone numbers in your city you live in. So what you do is open the phone book and count everyone that is listed in the phone book and then provide that number.  You have now forgotten to count all the unlisted phone number of people in your city.   </P> <P>The way you are trying to count people can not prove any point at all.  All of the top raiding guilds on our server are all /anon or /role so that right there is a total of 125+ people that are not being able to be counted on your theory.   The /who all templar has to many errors and can't count correct numbers.  There is no way to come up with a margin for error either. You can't just say lets use 20% because where did that 20% come from? How did you come about that number? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> <BR></P>

[quasigenx]

From the point of view of a real life census, /who all templar actually is a valid metric. When you perform a real life census, you do not control what percentage of what demographic will respond. You have to assume that it's roughly equal for all demographics. You can still drawn statistical conclusions fom those results, given a large enough data set.In any case, anyone tried eq2census.com? From 1-70, Templar is #2 (behind Fury). From 50-70 Templar is #1 by a decent margin. 60-70, Templar again.Those numbers come from eq2players, and ignore anon, etc. Granted, there are some inactives in there, which is why you use a recent level range.<div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>Giffen wrote:Just wondering, mine is only level 12 but so far I have no problems soloing, and that is without even fighting undead, where I would really shine...I think I will have no problems getting to 20 solo, if I choose, which is almost 1/3 of the way through the game...<div></div><hr></blockquote>About 30, depending on gear etc. you might get to 40, you will find you can't kill much of anything alone in any decent time frame. Up until then you should find going pretty well.

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Schmoogles wrote:<div></div> <p>LOL - Seriously?   </p> <p>By doing /who templar is like someone asking you to get a list of all the phone numbers in your city you live in. So what you do is open the phone book and count everyone that is listed in the phone book and then provide that number.  You have now forgotten to count all the unlisted phone number of people in your city.   </p> <p>The way you are trying to count people can not prove any point at all.  All of the top raiding guilds on our server are all /anon or /role so that right there is a total of 125+ people that are not being able to be counted on your theory.   The /who all templar has to many errors and can't count correct numbers.  There is no way to come up with a margin for error either. You can't just say lets use 20% because where did that 20% come from? How did you come about that number? </p> <hr></blockquote>You really dont get it do you? Or do you mean that your top raiding guilds dont have any furies, wardens, inquisitors, mystics or defilers in them? Seriously? Indeed, there is a margin of error. But the error is roughly the same for all classes. Unless you claim that templars play more /anon or /role than other classes. And then you would actually need to prove it. Your phonebook example also shows that you dont get it. Pick a last name and count them from the phone book. Now pick another. Can you really say that people who use the other last name, have their phone number more often unlisted than the other? Seriously?<div></div>

[Raistlan]

<div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<blockquote><hr>Schmoogles wrote:<div></div> <p>LOL - Seriously?   </p> <p>By doing /who templar is like someone asking you to get a list of all the phone numbers in your city you live in. So what you do is open the phone book and count everyone that is listed in the phone book and then provide that number.  You have now forgotten to count all the unlisted phone number of people in your city.   </p> <p>The way you are trying to count people can not prove any point at all.  All of the top raiding guilds on our server are all /anon or /role so that right there is a total of 125+ people that are not being able to be counted on your theory.   The /who all templar has to many errors and can't count correct numbers.  There is no way to come up with a margin for error either. You can't just say lets use 20% because where did that 20% come from? How did you come about that number? </p> <hr></blockquote>You really dont get it do you? Or do you mean that your top raiding guilds dont have any furies, wardens, inquisitors, mystics or defilers in them? Seriously? Indeed, there is a margin of error. But the error is roughly the same for all classes. Unless you claim that templars play more /anon or /role than other classes. And then you would actually need to prove it.<font color="#ff0000">Although people cannot prove that the margin of error being equal is in-correct, neither can you prove that it is correct.  More to the point - as you are the one providing the data and stating facts based off of that data, the onus is on you to prove that your data is reliable, not for these other people to prove that it isnt.  Nor do I see any factual way for you to prove it, all of your arguments for accepting your data so far have been theories expounding some relation or another, and we all know that theory does not always translate perfectly into the practical.</font> Your phonebook example also shows that you dont get it. Pick a last name and count them from the phone book. Now pick another. Can you really say that people who use the other last name, have their phone number more often unlisted than the other? Seriously?<div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:<div><blockquote><font color="#ff0000">Although people cannot prove that the margin of error being equal is in-correct, neither can you prove that it is correct.  More to the point - as you are the one providing the data and stating facts based off of that data, the onus is on you to prove that your data is reliable, not for these other people to prove that it isnt.  Nor do I see any factual way for you to prove it, all of your arguments for accepting your data so far have been theories expounding some relation or another, and we all know that theory does not always translate perfectly into the practical.</font> </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Not really, I was just countering Kends claim that templars are the most popular class. The numbers I presented just say that things aren't as one dimensional as Kend claimed. And like I said, he should have taken his own advice about the conclusions. Also my point has been proven by theory. It is very unlikely that people who prefer playing /anon or /role would pick mainly templars. If you want to prove otherwise, you need to prove that more templars play /anon or /role than furies for example. After all, you are the one making that claim. I am using the valid assumption that templars are not using more of those tags than other classes. Valid why? Because of simple mathematics. Of course there could be differences between servers, like someone presented numbers that had templars as 5th in the total numbers in that particula server while Kend presented templars as first in all servers. That is why it would be good if other people (you for example) posted numbers from their servers. Of course it might not be in everyones interest. Put I can put it in another way, the numbers I present, clearly show that claim about templars being the most popular healing class is at best doubtful. But like I said, the numbers that show how many classes exist, tell nothing about how much certain class is actually played. The numbers I presented do tell something.<div></div>

[Raistlan]

Personally I have no doubt that we're no longer the most popular healing class, but I do believe we remain popular.  Definately still far about Defiler's and Inquisitor's to be sure.  The last data I saw suggested we were maginally above furies, but I fully expect that now fury's are above us.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P>For the sake of argument, assume Tima has somehow convinced me that choosing a single server's "who all" numbers during off peak times are statistically significant to determine whether or Templars are a popular class. </P> <P> </P> <P>Right now on Tima's server, Nektulos:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Furies, 20-70:  6<BR>Templars, 20-70:  5<BR>Mystic, 20-70: 5<BR>Inquisitor, 20-70: 5<BR>Warden, 20-70:  3<BR>Defiler, 20-70: 2</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Right now on the largest server, Antonia Bayle:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Templars, 20-70:  11<BR>Defiler, 20-70: 9<BR>Furies, 20-70:  6<BR>Warden, 20-70:  5<BR>Mystic, 20-70: 2<BR>Inquisitor, 20-70: 0</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Right now on my own primary server, Guk:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Furies, 20-70:  10<BR>Templars, 20-70:  10<BR>Warden, 20-70:  6<BR>Mystic, 20-70: 5<BR>Inquisitor, 20-70: 5<BR>Defiler, 20-70: 3</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, apparantly numbers and rankings aren't consistent from server to server.  Imagine that.  :smileywink: </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Raistlan]

Just to help out, I decided to do this as well on Najena <span>:smileywink:</span>Templar 20 70 -     34Fury 20 70 -           31Mystic 20 70 -        25Defiler 20 70 -        17Inquisitor 20 70 -    16Warden 20 70 -      14<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>Well, apparantly numbers and rankings aren't consistent from server to server.  Imagine that.  :smileywink: </p> <hr></blockquote>Now, about popularity, make a calculation using the numbers you previously posted as total amounts in all servers. How large porportion of templars is playing compared to other classes? That is how the popularity is actually calculated, how many of the people who have templars, are actually playing them and for how long. (yes, that is not a question mark).<div></div>

[Nari]

<DIV>What is the deal with Guk?  I'm trying to get to know the community there, but it's just really different.  It isn't highly populated in early mornings on the weekends.  Are they in PST or something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to admit that I don't run into as many templars, but folks in my guild have rolled up a few new ones.  I like to think that it is because I set such a shining example, but it is probably because they have played everything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: edited for a little more clarification</DIV><p>Message Edited by 3devious on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<hr>Kendricke wrote:For the sake of argument, assume Tima has somehow convinced me that choosing a single server's "who all" numbers during off peak times are statistically significant to determine whether or Templars are a popular class. Right now on Tima's server, Nektulos:Furies, 20-70:  6Templars, 20-70:  5Mystic, 20-70: 5Inquisitor, 20-70: 5Warden, 20-70:  3Defiler, 20-70: 2Right now on the largest server, Antonia Bayle:Templars, 20-70:  11Defiler, 20-70: 9Furies, 20-70:  6Warden, 20-70:  5Mystic, 20-70: 2Inquisitor, 20-70: 0Right now on my own primary server, Guk:Furies, 20-70:  10Templars, 20-70:  10Warden, 20-70:  6Mystic, 20-70: 5Inquisitor, 20-70: 5Defiler, 20-70: 3Well, apparantly numbers and rankings aren't consistent from server to server.  Imagine that.  :smileywink: <hr>Antonio Bayle is a 'role play' preferred server, I would think is a much higher likelihood that that server would have people who play with a different line of thinking. in other words, they may tend to ignore what the rest of the server population would call 'a Great Nerf'So AB doesn't mean as much in that list as the other 2. So your numbers have a different conclusion from my viewpoint.EDIT: to remove white space.<p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:So AB doesn't mean as much in that list as the other 2. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How many more restrictions can we possibly place on the numbers here? </P> <P>I pull aggregate character numbers - oh, that doesn't show who's being played.  I point out it's only for active characters that have levelled in the past 30 days or who are level 70 - well, that doesn't show who actually plays more.  I point out that many times players are hidden by /role or /anon - oh, that just shows that Templars are ashamed of their class.  I point out that even with the numbers, Templars aren't falling behind on many servers - oh, well that server or this server don't really count.</P> <P>Seriously?  Are <EM>facts</EM> just out of style around these parts these days?</P> <P> </P>

[CrazyMoogle]

<blockquote><hr>Schmoogles wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>But you can't use them for numbers. Maybe there are no Furys that are /anon. You don't know that.  That is why you CAN'T use /who templar to get CORRECT numbers.   It's really simple.  I understand what you are trying to tell me but it doesn't make sense. You can not use those number to see who has more people logged in or active at any given time on your server. The number are so messed up if you do it doesn't prove any point you are trying to make.  </p> <p>No way shape or form does /who templar give you correct numbers. Period !!</p><hr></blockquote>This method is no less accurate than using some EQ population site which may count a Templar that gets logged in every couple weeks or so and dings occassionally.  Those are not the people (characters) that are being talked about here.  This discussion is about the characters that actively are progressed and played fairly often.There are holes easily seen in either method of determining how many people are playing.<div></div>

[CrazyMoogle]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>Whether it's #1 all the time, or just part of the time - it's still a played class.  Anyone who states otherwise should go ask Defilers how they feel about the "unpopularity" of Templars.  Go start a post on Defiler forums telling them how unpopular we Templars are.  In fact, go tell Furies how unpopular we are.  I'm sure those communities would jump at the chance to sympathize the plight of us poor, poor Templars.</p><hr></blockquote>Why would they even care if so many people played their class or not?  This is a really silly argument as there is no reason to want more people to play your class.  Your last sentence there is especially condescending.  Can you leave the snippy comments out of the discussion, please?<div></div>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> It is very unlikely that people who prefer playing /anon or /role would pick mainly templars. If you want to prove otherwise, you need to prove that more templars play /anon or /role than furies for example. After all, you are the one making that claim. I am using the valid assumption that templars are not using more of those tags than other classes. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never said templars use /anon or /role playing more then others.  On Befallen server if you type /who any classes you get 2 of each class that are level 70.  The only people that are not /anon or /role where people LFG.  Most of all the people on our server that are level 70 are either /anon or /role.   Where do you come up with it is very unlikely that people play /anon or /role?  People on our server actually prefer to play that way to prevent people who sell plat to sending tells to you.</P> <P>Anyways it doesn't matter since you all started using that to count for you stats.  </P> <P>My point is that you think people don't play /anon or /role when in fact probably more people that are level 70 play /anon or /role more then any other level.     <BR></P><p>Message Edited by Schmoogles on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CrazyMoogle wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Whether it's #1 all the time, or just part of the time - it's still a played class.  Anyone who states otherwise should go ask Defilers how they feel about the "unpopularity" of Templars.  Go start a post on Defiler forums telling them how unpopular we Templars are.  In fact, go tell Furies how unpopular we are.  I'm sure those communities would jump at the chance to sympathize the plight of us poor, poor Templars.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why would they even care if so many people played their class or not?  This is a really silly argument as there is no reason to want more people to play your class.  Your last sentence there is especially condescending.  Can you leave the snippy comments out of the discussion, please?<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Before I ever posted in a  thread entitled "What level does Templar DPS begin to suck?", I was able to read such predictable comments as "It starts when you make an alt that has dps" or " In my opinion, the best option between healing and DPS at low levels is the Fury" or "If we specalise all 50 of our AA's into DPS at level 70 we can parse what a level 40 Fury with 10 AA's parse."</P> <P>The comments themselves are the same comments many of us have been reading over and over for the better part of 10 months now that somehow Furies are better than Templars in virtually every way.  Some players tend to concentrate on what's wrong with the class...instead of finding what's good with it.  Some players would have us believe that this class is dying, or somehow useless - especially by trying to compare Templar weaknesses to the strengths of other classes.</P> <P>I don't subscribe to that point of view.  I try to show how we can use our spells to great effect.  I try to show which achievements can be used to address specific goals.  I try to show how we can maximize healing, how we can maximize damage, and even how we can strike a balance between the two.  I don't ignore our weaknesses, but I do tend to concentrate on our strengths.</P> <P>So, you'll have to forgive me if I find it more than a little frustrating - again - to have to once again deal with the same predictable comments over how great the grass is on the other side of the fence, and how badly we "poor, poor Templars" have it. </P>

[CrazyMoogle]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Some players would have us believe that this class is dying, or somehow useless - especially by trying to compare Templar weaknesses to the strengths of other classes.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't believe the class is "dying", and I haven't seen anyone (yet) say that it was.  I have seen people say they believe it's popularity is dwindling (my interpretation of their comments) and that seems to be correct to me, both from numbers I've seen posted here as well as my own personal subjective view of what I see in game day to day.  So I don't see where you have a beef here.But if someone in this thread has said "omg the Templar class is dying" I surely missed it and would appreciate if you point it out to me so I can ask them why they think that.<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>So, you'll have to forgive me if I find it more than a little frustrating - again - to have to once again deal with the same predictable comments over how great the grass is on the other side of the fence, and how badly we "poor, poor Templars" have it. </p><hr></blockquote>Luckily, you have the option of not clicking on a thread which is of subject matter you don't wish to discuss.  Alternatively, if you mistakenly click on a thread and find it to be discussing something you're tired of discussing you have the easy option of leaving the thread.  Both of those options are better than your present selection of misquoting and condescending quips.<div></div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>CrazyMoogle wrote:<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Some players would have us believe that this class is dying, or somehow useless - especially by trying to compare Templar weaknesses to the strengths of other classes.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't believe the class is "dying", and I haven't seen anyone (yet) say that it was.  I have seen people say they believe it's popularity is dwindling (my interpretation of their comments) and that seems to be correct to me, both from numbers I've seen posted here as well as my own personal subjective view of what I see in game day to day.  So I don't see where you have a beef here.But if someone in this thread has said "omg the Templar class is dying" I surely missed it and would appreciate if you point it out to me so I can ask them why they think that. <font color="#ffff00">Kends statement is a classic strawman argument. Sometimes when someone cannot counter the actual argument, they make one of their own and club it instead. </font><div></div><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[110euph]

<DIV>Only way to settle this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CAGE MATCH!</DIV> <DIV>LAST TEMPLAR STANDING WINS!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thirty man entah, one man leave!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I'm sellin tickets!!!</DIV> <DIV>PST!</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>110euph wrote:<div>Only way to settle this?</div> <div> </div> <div>CAGE MATCH!</div> <div>LAST TEMPLAR STANDING WINS!!!</div> <div> </div> <div>Thirty man entah, one man leave!</div> <div> </div> <div>And I'm sellin tickets!!!</div> <div>PST!</div><hr></blockquote>And I am selling food and housing. I'll be a <strike>millionaire</strike> billionaire even with one paying spectator.<div></div>

[SatinyCh]

<P>W TF? Timariit is on Nektulos?</P> <P> </P> <P>Who the hell is your toon?</P>

[Idoru]

<div></div>I tend to prefer the /who all method because it show's players, not characters.Also, I tend to disregard arguments from people who have to resort to snippy and condescending comments, because their arguments are usually weaker, based on frustration and emotion than actual logic.<div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote: It starts when you make an alt that has dps.<hr></blockquote></div>Out of all the comments this was my favorite to answer the question of the original topic. I started struggling to find groups for my Templar at level 35 to 40, and that was when I ended up making a Monk alt. It was then that I realized that Templar's DPS began to suck.I think this thread is a good reference for potential Templars:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=88476" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=gameplay&message.id=88476</a><div></div><p>Message Edited by Idoru on <span class=date_text>07-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[DeadGopher]

1)

[Idoru]

<div><blockquote><hr>ADAM0S wrote:<div></div>1)<hr></blockquote>Jeopardy:    What is a broken smilie?</div>

[Arkenor]

A nice pristine imbued rare wood buckler will get you far.Templars get hit a lot. Thus items which proc on being hit work very nicely. With imbued rare legs and buckler, against groups it's a significant part of my damage output. No doubt theres fancy loot which does it even better, but rare crafted has always served me well for the purpose.

[110euph]

<DIV align=center><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000 size=6>Templar</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000 size=6></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000 size=6>Ain't</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000 size=6></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000 size=6>DPS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be DPS, play an Assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vivac</DIV>

[CoLD MeTaL]

Templar MAY NOT be DPS, but we would like to kill something in this LIFETIME.

[Filroden]

<blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:Templar MAY NOT be DPS, but we would like to kill something in this LIFETIME.<hr></blockquote>Does your templar have a lifetime shorter than 12 seconds? Because that's how long templars take to kill even con solo mobs at high levels. Even before that, mobs were dying in 30-40 seconds. Hardly a lifetime.Templars make better soloers in many situations, particularly against classes such as swashbucklers and assassins, because we can easily take on yellow con and yellow con one ups and defeat them. We do not add as much DPS to a group compared to the above two classes, but they do not add as much longevity (heals and buffs) to the group as the templar - horses for courses. However, templars can and do equal furies in the DPS they can add to a group - and who complains at a fury's DPS?

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR>Templar MAY NOT be DPS, but we would like to kill something in this LIFETIME.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=26635" target=_blank>Templar Damage Achievement Builds</A></P> <P>There you go...an entire discussion on how Templars can increase DPS using Achievements.  Now, per <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=229298107" target=_blank>the profile</A> on EQ2players which I believe is yours (correct me if I'm mistaken), you've got 17 Achievements at level 56.  Now, even if this profile <EM>isn't</EM> yours...it's a good profile to learn a lesson from:</P> <P>This Templar has put all of his points thus far into the Wisdom line.  Though it will increase DPS against undead, it's not really going to be the best DPS build - even for undead, actually. </P> <P>For the same number of points, this Templar would have been better off (in my opinion) going for the Deacon/Stamina line and gaining additional points toward +50% melee critical hits (rather than the undead only damage proc).  Alternatively, this Templar could have gone for the Protector/Agility line and gained a flat out increase of +40% DPS (which stacks with Yaulp for +60% overall). </P> <P>The other issue I'm seeing is that this Templar has a symbol equipped as a secondary item, likely because it's required for Turn Undead.  Though Symbols are fine if you're grouping, when you're soloing, you'll either want a buckler (for additional avoidance), or you'll just want a flat out 2 handed weapon (for damage).  The symbol limits the Templar here to a 1 handed weapon (he's chosen an imbued wand) without the additional defense afforded by a shield.</P> <P>IF this particular Templar feels that he is getting hit too often, or interrupted too often, it might behoove this Templar to replace his Achievements into the Agility line and pick up a buckler, and perhaps shift toward a more melee damage oriented weapon.  I might even recommend the Screaming Mace at his level as a start.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>Filroden wrote:...However, templars can and do equal furies in the DPS they can add to a group - and who complains at a fury's DPS?<hr></blockquote>That statement is just LUDICROUS.We 'might' be able to equal Fury DPS if the Fury is 15 levels BELOW US.

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>This Templar has put all of his points thus far into the Wisdom line.  Though it will increase DPS against undead, it's not really going to be the best DPS build - even for undead, actually. </p><p>For the same number of points, this Templar would have been better off (in my opinion) going for the Deacon/Stamina line and gaining additional points toward +50% melee critical hits (rather than the undead only damage proc).  Alternatively, this Templar could have gone for the Protector/Agility line and gained a flat out increase of +40% DPS (which stacks with Yaulp for +60% overall). </p><p>The other issue I'm seeing is that this Templar has a symbol equipped as a secondary item, likely because it's required for Turn Undead.  Though Symbols are fine if you're grouping, when you're soloing, you'll either want a buckler (for additional avoidance), or you'll just want a flat out 2 handed weapon (for damage).  The symbol limits the Templar here to a 1 handed weapon (he's chosen an imbued wand) without the additional defense afforded by a shield.</p><p>IF this particular Templar feels that he is getting hit too often, or interrupted too often, it might behoove this Templar to replace his Achievements into the Agility line and pick up a buckler, and perhaps shift toward a more melee damage oriented weapon.  I might even recommend the Screaming Mace at his level as a start.</p><hr></blockquote>I had put all the AA points in the INT line, the funny thing is you address all the concerns that I have with my Templar with a number of AA points that it is impossible to achieve.I am interrupted/fizzle constantly, to the ludicrous speed level.I use the hierophants crook when i solo, and the screaming mace, see my post on the last 3 nights of my life trying to get one mob to pop down there. (and keep a group to do it since I can't take those lizardmen solo)I 'need' the WIS points for power pool, because without them I run out of power, actually i am still running out of power in a lot of situations WITH the WIS from AA.I see the STA line, sure, but 4 points of STA is a total WASTE, when i need those points in WIS for power.So i used my free AA change to put everything into WIS for going into the Living Tombs, just haven't made it down there yet.One additional problem, is that i solo mostly, group some, raid a little, so i don't have great gear, and I try to be a jack of all trades, which doesn't work with the AA setup. You have to focus on one area at the expense of others. (Even according to your article)<p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class=date_text>07-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>I can't help those who refuse to be helped.  No one can. </P> <P>Nine out of ten posts you make upon these forums are full of negativity and cynical doubt:  "Beta Tester since 12/04"; "Live Nerf 13"; "Impossible"; "Can't". </P> <P>Henry Ford once said that "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right".  I'm a "think I can" sort of fellow.  If you're not, that could be part of the issue you're having with your Templar.  I say this, not as an attack, but as a possible observation:  <EM>other Templars are doing what you say can't be done with similar or even worse gear and levels to your own.</EM>  Therefore, in my opinion, it's not a problem with the class...but perhaps a problem with the player. </P> <P>Alter your playstyle if you're having issues.  You claim that you "need" power or you run out.  Perhaps that is because you're running defense instead of offense?  You're playing a hold-the-line defensive playstyle if you're running out of power.  On my testing Templar (who has NO raid gear at all), I don't so much as heal myself for five pulls in a row.  I'm putting out so much DPS that the targets just die that fast.  It's not due to fabled gear...it's due to a change in playstyle. </P> <P>In many posts, you refer to "Live Nerf 13", which leads me to believe you're still stuck on the way things used to be.  If you haven't adapted since then, that could be part of the issue.  Those who learn to adapt, learn to overcome.  Those who cannot adapt are left behind. </P> <P>If you want help...I'll be glad to assist.  If you just want to tell me how it's "impossible" or "can't" be done...then I'll leave you to your own personal misery.  As I said, I'm a "think I can" sort of fellow.  What kind of fellow are you trying to be on these forums?  One who finds a way...or finds a way to tell the rest of us it can't be done (even while we're out there doing it right now).  That choice is really up to you. </P> <P>If, after all that, you're still feeling it's "impossible" to solo effectively with a Templar...then perhaps you should try a different class.  If you feel Furies are that powerful, then perhaps your playstyle is better suited for that class.  Not every player is going to be great at playing every class.  We all have our own quirks and idiosyncracies that differentiate our playstyles.  Mine work well for Templar.  Perhaps yours do not.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:I can't help those who refuse to be helped.  No one can.</blockquote>I am not refusing to be helped. It just doesn't do a person with $5 much good for someone to suggest how much better his life would be if he used $10 in such and such a way. So if I go down the STA line, i need more AA points to get any real benefit, if I understand correctly. Well i need to solo 'now' to make those additional points. And SOE has made it expensive to rework your AA points so i can't just guess and try, and if it doesn't work redo it.Am I soloing? a littleHave i seen the DPS numbers u post? No. (On my Fury 10 levels lower i see better, but I don't want to lose 10 hard earned levels)And for the record, I do intend on trying to digest the AA info and see if I can make heads or tails of any of that. This is my first (and last) MMO, so what makes intuitive sense to me is apparently not how things work. As to Live Nerf 13, I WAS doing just fine no complaints prior to it, on all my characters, after I do not seem to be able to do anything solo with any of them. Your mileage varies, bully for u.so maybe if i ever get to 70 with 50 aa, i will be able to discover the templar u have. maybe not, maybe i will forever be stuck in the 'unable to now play my class'. if i start over, i will not be able to play with the people i have come to know, so yes i am extremely frustrated. however that isn't your problem. so i have the rock and a hard place and yes it is MY problem. why belittle me for presenting my problem as my problems not yours? Perhaps there are a lot of silent templars that feel the same, perhaps not.I read your posts I change my playstyle, it doesn't seem to matter or let say you present do 1 then b then c and d will happen, i do 1 then b then c but d does not happen. After 10,20,50,100 times where do i say this doesn't work?you say you don't hardly heal yourself in 5 fights, u see my gear, i am in the yellow before the mob is out of the green (on blue one down arrow solo mobs) so 1 end up healing and healing a lot (yes i am buffed, and yes everything is attuned, interrupts and fizzle through the roof even with a buckler equiped (yes, i have a buckler and a 2 hander etc)). I do not understand how we can see such differing results, but that is my problem.

[Nari]

<DIV>Cold, I am not trying to be a Nicole when I ask why you are still using the crook at your level?  I know that it is a cool weapon, but it won't do much damage to what you are trying to kill at your level.  The stat increases can easily be made up for with mastercrafted jewelry in T6.  I think the mace is cool too, but you are too big to be playing with them.  It has been my experience that you would get more mileage out of mastercrafted T6 than those weapons (unless they have been updated recently...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That might help you a little bit.  I still can't kill anything in 12 seconds, yet, but I am more often the spanker instead of the spankee as of late. (Alright the rest of you, get your minds out of the gutter!)</DIV>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div>Cold, I am not trying to be a Nicole when I ask why you are still using the crook at your level?  I know that it is a cool weapon, but it won't do much damage to what you are trying to kill at your level.  The stat increases can easily be made up for with mastercrafted jewelry in T6.  I think the mace is cool too, but you are too big to be playing with them.  It has been my experience that you would get more mileage out of mastercrafted T6 than those weapons (unless they have been updated recently...)</div><div> </div><div>That might help you a little bit.  I still can't kill anything in 12 seconds, yet, but I am more often the spanker instead of the spankee as of late. (Alright the rest of you, get your minds out of the gutter!)</div><hr></blockquote>That is why i got a 1 handed mastercrafted, so i could use a buckler/symbol whatver in off hand. heirophant has the proc that make a huge difference, and i only had 1 piece of ironwood. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I see a fine walk with limited coin on what to get, my bad choices maybe. As soon as i can i will get a new 2 hander.1 problem i know i have is i look at the stats etc, and have a hard time replacing a level 40 something with a level 50 something that has worse stats, but the 10 levels usability really means more.i think the 2 hander mastercrafted have less WIS, and the proc is actually smaller than the crook, but they are level 50 weapons, not 40. hard for me to determine which matters more. On my paladin i replaced my level 40 fabled with 52 mastercrafted, lost stats AND mitigation, but actually get hurt less. that is counter intuitive. I am struggling with that maybe i will overcome it someday.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR><BR>I am not refusing to be helped. It just doesn't do a person with $5 much good for someone to suggest how much better his life would be if he used $10 in such and such a way. So if I go down the STA line, i need more AA points to get any real benefit, if I understand correctly. Well i need to solo 'now' to make those additional points. And SOE has made it expensive to rework your AA points so i can't just guess and try, and if it doesn't work redo it. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SOE hasn't made it expensive to rework the Achievements.  They've given a free reset with the last two Game Updates, and it costs less than a gold for the first two resets past that anyway. </P> <P>Even so, I WAS telling you how to take the $5 and get $5 worth of value.  You have 17 points on your Templar.  Those 17 points are spent in the Wisdom line.  If you switched those exact same points to the Stamina line, you'd gain Hammer Smite and a 50% bonus to melee criticals.  Take a nice big two handed hammer with a relatively high damage range and suddenly you're putting out critical hits on better than every other swing which are automatically at least hitting for your highest normal damage up to an additional 30% past that.</P> <P>...OR, you could plug those same points into the Agility line and you'd get a straight up 40% additional DPS bonus to all melee hits (which stacks with Yaulp for +60% DPS)...in addition to an extra 28 Agility (which translates to more avoidance...coupled with the fact that you'd be using a buckler now instead of a symbol).</P> <P>As far as the digs constantly made regarding my Templar with "70 levels and 50 AA", I won't continue to point out the fact that Kendricke is just one of my Templar characters.  I've since made Goldenfang on Antonia Bayle to toy around with the idea of a Templar who ONLY solos...ever.  I also maintain a separate Templar on the Test server I use for playing with numbers.  He's the "testing templar" I keep referring to, and I've been using him lately with only a modest amount of Achievements (30 right now) and no raid level gear to help support my points.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR>so i have the rock and a hard place and yes it is MY problem. why belittle me for presenting my problem as my problems not yours? Perhaps there are a lot of silent templars that feel the same, perhaps not. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not belittling you as a person.  However, it's irresponsible to address the idea that "Templar DPS sucks" without so much as considering the possibility that some of the issues might be related to player skill or attitude.  I daresay that more than any other possible variable, the attitude a player takes into a fight is the most important.  It's the same reason gifted atheletes sometimes lose out to "<EM>inferior</EM>" ones - because a great deal of gamesmanship is mental.</P> <P>If there were no players who could do the things you claim you cannot...then your arguments about "can't" and "impossible" might hold merit.  As it is, there are Templars right now at your general level range in your general gear who are doing the very things you claim you cannot.  At least a few of them are in my own guild...with less gear than you have, and far less Achievement points.  One of our Templars in your level range does very well while soloing, <EM>and he only has Yaulp</EM>!<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR><BR>you say you don't hardly heal yourself in 5 fights, u see my gear, i am in the yellow before the mob is out of the green (on blue one down arrow solo mobs) so 1 end up healing and healing a lot (yes i am buffed, and yes everything is attuned, interrupts and fizzle through the roof even with a buckler equiped (yes, i have a buckler and a 2 hander etc)). I do not understand how we can see such differing results, but that is my problem.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The test Templar I use is in nothing better than standard gear you can buy relatively cheaply from the broker.  In fact, 90% of the gear he has comes from quests he's completed himself or with small groups.  Not one bit of raid gear is used, and yet he still manages to make it through most fights without needing healing. </P> <P>Perhaps I should try recording a few fights with him to show the results more effectively.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:...<hr></blockquote>While the AGI and STA lines make absolutely no sense whatsover to me for a Templar, I will be investigating them. I hesitate to lose the WIS and go back to running out of power on every fight, I just run out of power on some fights now.for you the resets may not be expensive, a couple of mistakes for me and they are, coin is difficult to come by for me,why they have to go to PLAT i will enver know, that prohibits me from even thinking about a reset.While it could be me, I do point to PRIOR to Live Nerf 13, I was fine, POST I cannot solo. And even if i am the crappiest Templar to ever roll a character, shouldn't I be allowed to voice my opinion, and request changes? (complain as so many put it, we are still free last I checked)And the comments about your level 70 Templar are not digs, but evidence, you have figured out how to play your templar, mine is 1 year old, and only level 56, while you reroll a smaller one and put him in inferior gear, you still have knowledge of a 70 templar and how to build it. Those aren't digs, those are explanations as to why you may not understand where I am coming from.Yaulp ON = run out of power fast. I generally don't use it since it is such a power drain.As to attitude, it has only gone down as my deaths and group wipes go up since Live Nerf 13. Attitude in the face of facts, can sometimes overcome, but generally doesn't matter. I can believe all I want that that mack truck is not gonna hurt me when it hits, but when it makes me a red smear, that 'positive' attitude didn't matter a whit. Yes Live Nerf 13 had mack on the hood.

[Kendricke]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR>While the AGI and STA lines make absolutely no sense whatsover to me for a Templar, I will be investigating them. I hesitate to lose the WIS and go back to running out of power on every fight, I just run out of power on some fights now. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fine, if you feel Templars should cast more often, and since you already have a Hierophant's Crook that you like, put those same 17 points into the Arbiter/Intelligence line.  That gives you Divine Castigation (about a 550pt damage spell for you) and a 14% chance at spell critical hits. </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR><BR><BR>While it could be me, I do point to PRIOR to Live Nerf 13, I was fine, POST I cannot solo. And even if i am the crappiest Templar to ever roll a character, shouldn't I be allowed to voice my opinion, and request changes? (complain as so many put it, we are still free last I checked) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off, no one's telling you that you have no right to voice an opinion.  Just understand that opinions and facts are different beasts entirely.  That said, there's a decided difference between complaining with cause and complaining just for the sake of complaining.  The fact remains that you want changes made to a class based on what you claim you "cannot" do...all while there exist other players in the same or similar situation as yourself who ARE doing what you "cannot" do.  At that point, I have to ask if the problem is with the game or with the player.</P> <P>If you were a member of my guild (which you are not) and you approached myself with the statement: "<EM>PRIOR to Live Nerf 13, I was fine, POST I cannot solo</EM>", I might ask you to rethink your attitude in approaching the problem.  You still refer to"Live Nerf 13" and you continue to post time and again how you "cannot" do this or "cannot" do that. </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR>As to attitude, it has only gone down as my deaths and group wipes go up since Live Nerf 13. Attitude in the face of facts, can sometimes overcome, but generally doesn't matter. I can believe all I want that that mack truck is not gonna hurt me when it hits, but when it makes me a red smear, that 'positive' attitude didn't matter a whit. Yes Live Nerf 13 had mack on the hood.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right.</EM>  These aren't just pretty words here.  They were spoken by a man who was told over and over by his critics that he'd "never" do this or "couldn't" do that.  Yet...he did everything he was told he could not, and he made history in the process.  Even then, I'm not asking you to make history.  I am merely suggesting that you might want to reconsider your own attitude toward the class.</P> <P>That's good advice for any player in any game.  It's why coaches give pep talks at all.  It's why you hear about "homefield" advantages.  It's why cheerleaders exist in the first place.  It's why you hear about a "gameface".  It's because so much success in sports and games relies upon an assumption of success - it's because you require a winning attitude. </P> <P>If you make posts about how you "cannot" solo, or how it's "impossible", then you've given up before you ever tried.  At that point, you can't even claim there are problems with the class or with the game's mechanics...since you've actually identified yourself as a major part of your own issues. </P> <P>Honestly, if you think this is a bad "nerf", pick a new class.  It's been TEN MONTHS since Live Update 13, which itself came out 10 months after the release of the game!  At what point will you let it go?  After another 10 months?  Sometime in 2009?  It's done.  It's past.  It's not coming back.  Get over it.  I say this in the most positive, constructive way I can...because if you're still stuck on the past, you're simply hurting yourself <EM>and</EM> your groups at this point. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[110euph]

<DIV>I've been the only healer in my last three or four groups in Sinking Sands.  We've done really well.  We can't take Terrorantula or anything, but I healed a brigand today tanking a ^^^ giant and she never went into the orange.  Healed a zerker today in Sol Eye.  Me, the Zerker, and the Brigand.  As long as we were careful to get single pulls, or deciently sized double pulls, nothin went wrong.  I was able to keep the Zerker healed and cured, the Brigand up, and do a bit of damage myself with my BOOMSTICK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno what everyone complains about.  At my level, I'm perfectly capable of doing my job and doing it well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vivac</DIV>

[Filroden]

<blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<blockquote><hr>Filroden wrote:...However, templars can and do equal furies in the DPS they can add to a group - and who complains at a fury's DPS?<hr></blockquote>That statement is just LUDICROUS.We 'might' be able to equal Fury DPS if the Fury is 15 levels BELOW US.<hr></blockquote>I'm sorry that the fact I went through an entire evening in Sanctum of the Scaleborn as a 67 temnplar and matched or bettered the DPS of an equally equiped and AA expereiced level 70 fury whilst doing at least half and probably more of the healing makes my statement ludicrous. I know templars match furies in DPS - we just do it in completely different ways. If you are concerned about speccing out of WIS line into STA line because of power issues, do not be. After moving my AAs into the STA line I now use FAR less power per fight because my DPS comes from melee with only a small amount used on debuffs, pets and the occasional DoT. I can now complete a kill 20 writ in under 14 minutes without going below 70% power, healing after every 5th mob because the melee DPS is so large compared to what I had experienced before using spell damage and badly chosen equipment.

[CoLD MeTaL]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<hr></blockquote>1. I have no need/desire to post about the things I CAN do.2. This game in particular has third party restraints (i.e. SOE changes the rules as we go along) that make it different that other types of games. In other words, yes they can and do "stack the deck". (this is the first time I have stayed at the house of the kid who changes the rules every game)3. As to some can and you can't must be your problem. Someone somewhere broke the record for running the mile, all the other people in that race with him didn't. The people on a high school track in podunk, usa, who aren't running half that time, don't they have a right to run their own race with their own peers?4. I just came from the INT line, it wasn't helping, and WIS = more power, and I run out of power a lot.

[Filroden]

No-one wins all races. Everyone has the potential to win that race otherwise once the 4 minute mile was broken why did anyone else bother trying? Once we learnt how the 4 minute mile was broken...more people were able to do it. They observed that better nutrition, better training, better running shoes, etc allowed them to improve their times.But that's not the point, noone is saying templars are the best at DPS. I'm trying to put across the point that templars can and do run the mile and run it in respectable times comparied with others - they might not win but they don't have to be last. You're saying templars need a lifetime to run a mile to the point where they shouldn't even bother to try.What have you got to lose by trying? You can quickly respec back to WIS at minimal cost.

[quasigenx]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<blockquote>Yaulp ON = run out of power fast. I generally don't use it since it is such a power drain.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Let me get this straight. When you're soloing, you:<ul><li>Don't use yaulp.</li><li>Use a one handed weapon.</li><li>Have gone down the WIS line.</li></ul>You are missing out on literally 50% of the DPS you would have if you went:<ul><li>Yaulp</li><li>Two hander high max dmg weapon (too low for Blackscale maul I think).</li><li>STA line, even with 17 AA points.</li></ul>I only have 31 AAs, and I'm kicking 450 DPS. I hardly raid at all. I think one misconception people have is that Templar damage comes from spells. It doesn't. Fully 50% of my DPS is melee. 50%. That's a big difference. But it's not achievable with the setup you have, IMO.You should not run out of power during a single solo encounter. Not even close.</div><p>Message Edited by quasigenx on <span class=date_text>07-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 PM</span>

[LoneW]

<P>Cold,</P> <P> </P> <P>I was in the exact same situation as you. However, I did find a way out of it.</P> <P>4 points into stamina, 4 points into Hammer Smite, 8 into improved melee criticals.</P> <P>That will give you a 100% crit chance with a melee weapon.</P> <P>Next, you already have a wand that is mastercrafted and hopefully imbued. Use that and search for vruxx on the broker (A round shield that templars can use)</P> <P>Now, in stinking sands there is an area of undead right by the somethings of anueks (white spectres). Grind them until you are 57. Once you are 57, mine the hades out of the croc cave until you get 2 cobalts (chest and legs VANGUARD so they can be imbued).</P> <P>On fighting, you pull with your dot, cast mark, and then scorn and just melee them down (takes about 45 seconds per mob) every once in a while you will need to reactive heal yourself or cure traumas, those are no big thing (use yaulp, at 56 it is finally becoming useful when you always crit)</P> <P>At 57 goto sky (if you have it) and do the basket quests (killing the bugs in the first area of tenebrous tangle), that should get you 58 or 59 easy (the lettuce basket is the hardest for us as those plants poison and trauma like its going out of style)</P> <P>But it is possible to solo at 56, 17 AAs is the magic number that makes yaulp useful and getting a mastercrafted 50-60 weapon. I was there with you, you are right at the cusp, just hang with it, because it all comes togeather at 62 when you can start using the 60 to 70 mastercrafted</P>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>1. I have no need/desire to post about the things I CAN do.<BR><BR>2. This game in particular has third party restraints (i.e. SOE changes the rules as we go along) that make it different that other types of games. In other words, yes they can and do "stack the deck". (this is the first time I have stayed at the house of the kid who changes the rules every game)<BR><BR>3. As to some can and you can't must be your problem. Someone somewhere broke the record for running the mile, all the other people in that race with him didn't. The people on a high school track in podunk, usa, who aren't running half that time, don't they have a right to run their own race with their own peers?<BR><BR>4. I just came from the INT line, it wasn't helping, and WIS = more power, and I run out of power a lot.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well imo you are missing out on a lot by using the STA line AA.  </P> <P>1) if you use 4 into the melee crit chance you get 50% melee crit chance </P> <P>2) same line in STA you then get your heal crit. </P> <P> </P> <P>imo I have not looked at your gear but maybe just maybe there might be a couple of pieces of armor you can upgrade to get more wis that you would have lost from switching to STA AA line. It's doesn't hurt either to maybe buy a few potions for 10s and up your STR, WIS or INT.  They also have mana potions.  Make sure you are using your Manastone also.  </P> <P>I personally think that STA is the best AA then you build off that line.  I went INT line after the STA line because of Divine Recovery which is still my favorite spell of all time.  </P><p>Message Edited by Schmoogles on <span class=date_text>07-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<div></div>Has no one noticed anything funny about templar DPS?` Take Kends parse, he did 400 to 500 DPS. Take my templar, legendary gear with some fabled and a3 or better spells. I can do 180 to 240 DPS with 31 AA's put first to 8pts in critical heals and the rest to int line. He does over twice my DPS. If I were to use Kends setup, I could do propably 500 to 600 DPS. With AA's. Also, if you look at where we get our DPS. It if from <b><i>auto-attack</i></b>. Now I think that 500 to 600 that is my potential if I respecced AA's is ok, that is what furies can do if they set up for DPS. But a fury that does not set up for DPS, will not do just 180 to 240 DPS. So even though the AA's are a good step for templar, they can be obtained a bit too late. For example my templar had 20 AA's when I got to lvl 70. I have soloed once after that (3 writs). Also if you use some short delay weapon, you will propably lose lots of DPS when nuking since our nukes do very little damage and still take 2s to cast. This means that when even using haste items and Yaulp, your autoattack delay will be at least 2s. So IMO they should reduce the DPS from templar AA's and give us bigger nukes in all tiers. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>07-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[quasigenx]

<div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<div></div> So IMO they should reduce the DPS from templar AA's and give us bigger nukes in all tiers. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I LOVE the direction they are going with making our DPS melee. Right now, it's 50/50 even on these extreme builds. IMO, it should go even more twoards melee. It's make us unique among healers, and the "mace wielding cleric" is true to the game world.</div>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>quasigenx wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<div></div> So IMO they should reduce the DPS from templar AA's and give us bigger nukes in all tiers. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I LOVE the direction they are going with making our DPS melee. Right now, it's 50/50 even on these extreme builds. IMO, it should go even more twoards melee. It's make us unique among healers, and the "mace wielding cleric" is true to the game world.</div><hr></blockquote>That would be ok by me IF they gave us melee damage as regular skills, not as AA's. My point is that we are using AA's to get the DPS some others have had since LU13.<div></div>

[Nari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Honestly, if you think this is a bad "nerf", pick a new class.  It's been TEN MONTHS since Live Update 13, which itself came out 10 months after the release of the game!  At what point will you let it go?  After another 10 months?  Sometime in 2009?  It's done.  It's past.  It's not coming back.  Get over it.  I say this in the most positive, constructive way I can...because if you're still stuck on the past, you're simply hurting yourself <EM>and</EM> your groups at this point. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I really don't think you are being fair there.  What would you have said to the druids who waited 9 months for their fixes?  I am willing to bet there was some guy on their forums telling them to "let it go," too.  You both paid your nickels.  Neither of you should be expected to let it go.</P> <P>Just because I am not taking the devs over my knee everyday, doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see some changes made.  We need more people in the game, even if they don't agree with us.  You drive me nuts, but I want you to play.  I even told my husband to roll a character on Guk and ask if he could be in your guild because I think you guys would be a good fit.  Just because you drive me nuts with things you won't let go doesn't mean that I think you are useless/a detriment to the game.</P> <P>I want Coldmetal to play, too.  I hope you can look past all of this craziness and find something that works better for you.  There is some good advice in here.  Plus, when we have worldwide battle royale, I'll need some help so that we can get that Blackscale Maul away from a certain t7 person. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>PS: Is it really only a couple of gold to respec all of your AA points the first time?  If so, I am switching some stuff!</P>

[CrazyMoogle]

 <blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:While the AGI and STA lines make absolutely no sense whatsover to me for a Templar, I will be investigating them. I hesitate to lose the WIS and go back to running out of power on every fight, I just run out of power on some fights now.<hr></blockquote>I'm not going to criticize you and tell you that you suck as a Templar the way some have, but I will offer my opinion for you to consider.Even if you only think about traditional cleric duties (healing) the stamina line still makes sense as you need to go down it in order to get your heal crits.  Those heal crits are really the only reason I ever even started down that line, and it was really nothing more than a pleasant side effect to notice that my melee damage improve a fair chunk due to the 4 points I had to spend in melee crits just to continue down the line.  With 4 points you actually crit quite often, and I've been happy enough with the "side effect" of this line that I intend to go back and get the other 4 points (to bump it up to <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in the melee crits after I'm done getting spell haste maxed out.  I would strongly suggest you reconsider that line, just from one joe schmo templar to another.Something else....I think I read somewhere you are in your 50s (is that right?) and I saw where you said you had trouble with money.  I'm not rich by any means, but I'm comfortable enough that I can afford to buy every spell I get no lower than Adept 3 and have no trouble affording mastercrafted gear or other decent droppables (and really you don't need to buy or acquire Fabled gear to be geared well by my standards).  I say this not to sound like I'm bragging (hope it doesn't come across that way), but just as a round about way to tell you how I finance my Templar and a few other characters.  And that is that even today there is a fair chunk of change to be made by harvesting.  Now I know it's boring to a lot of people.  But harvesting the tier below your current level can net you decent cash to get yourself decked out in gear and spells.  I usually suggest people harvest a tier below so you can find a greyed out zone and be more productive without worrying about aggro, plus there's the increased chance of getting a rare when you're past a tier in harvesting skills.  So I'll turn on the TV or the radio or some MP3s and just go to town hitting every node I can find (yes even the dreaded food nodes!  :p  )Anyway, it's obviously your character so of course it's your decision to set it up any way you want.  But I truly believe if you give the stamina line a chance then farm a little cash and get a few gear and spell upgrades (assuming you need them....I haven't seen your gear) I think you would pleased with the results.By the way, what server do you play on if you don't mind my asking.  If you don't want to say here I understand.  There are a few people on this board that I don't trust to let know my character name as I don't want to be harrassed in game.  Send me a PM or something if you want and maybe if you wanna chat in game some time we can.Good luck man.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR>I really don't think you are being fair there.  What would you have said to the druids who waited 9 months for their fixes?  I am willing to bet there was some guy on their forums telling them to "let it go," too.  You both paid your nickels.  Neither of you should be expected to let it go. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There's a difference between "waiting for fixes" and constantly referencing a change to the gameplay in an overly hostile tone.  That's not merely complaining - and it's sure as daylight a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sight different from constructive criticism. </P> <P>The point of what I was saying was not "<EM>get out of my game</EM>" or "<EM>get away from my class</EM>".  However, that's not to say that every player fits every playstyle, and certainly every playstyle does not fit every class.  I have friends who love tanking and meleeing and pulling encounters who would be frustrated to tears to play as a Templar.  I know folks who love spell slinging or pet classes who would hate playing as a Templar.  We have strengths.  Individual players have strengths.  If those don't match up, it might be time to consider trying something new - be that a new playstyle, a new class, a new server, a new guild, or even a new game.</P> <P>It's been 10 months since Live Update 13 (not "Live Nerf"), and if you can't find it in yourself to adapt to the playstyle in that amount of time - while others are adapting to the changes - then it might be time to reconsider whether or not the problem is the class or the player.  Certainly, if I were having as many problems as ColdMetal continues to speak about after this amount of time I'd look into a new class or a new game, because I can't fathom hitting myself in the face for that long. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Schmoogles]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>PS: Is it really only a couple of gold to respec all of your AA points the first time?  If so, I am switching some stuff!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes I think you should have 2 free ones and then another respec stone from your /claim rewards and then when it comes time to pay its only like less then a gold piece your first time and like a gold piece your second time.  After switching them 2-3 times it starts getting expensive.  <BR>

[Nari]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Schmoogles wrote:</P> <P>Yes I think you should have 2 free ones and then another respec stone from your /claim rewards and then when it comes time to pay its only like less then a gold piece your first time and like a gold piece your second time.  After switching them 2-3 times it starts getting expensive. <BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hehe, I already used the 2 free ones.  I am really indecisive.  I was going to wait until they gave us another free one, but if it is that cheap, I think I will switch them again.  I am just afraid that my inability to make a decision will get pretty expensive!</DIV>

[Raistlan]

Going back a fair bit....<blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:While it could be me, I do point to PRIOR to Live Nerf 13, I was fine, POST I cannot solo. <hr></blockquote><div></div>Your comparing a period where Templar's were utterly overpowered to one where we are somewhat balanced.  Not only that, it's fairly funny in that we actually have a lot more dps now than we used to.  All Templar's had going for them pre-LU13 was that we were ridiculously overpowered healers with all the group cures.  Our dps was worse than it is now.

[110euph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quasigenx wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>I LOVE the direction they are going with making our DPS melee. Right now, it's 50/50 even on these extreme builds. IMO, it should go even more twoards melee. It's make us unique among healers, and the "mace wielding cleric" is true to the game world.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I VERY much agree.  I've noticed that I melee for usually 100 damage (give or take a few) per hit, or I can spend 2 second casting a nuke for 160.  Doesn't seem worth it to me to cast those nukes when I'm in melee range... especially with Yaulp up, giving me a chance to double attack.  Giving Templars Melee DPS is a really, REALLY interesting idea.</P> <P>I'm also using a Prist. Imbued Ebon Warhammer... so maybe that has somethign to do with it.</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raistlan wrote:<BR><BR> Your comparing a period where Templar's were utterly overpowered to one where we are somewhat balanced.  Not only that, it's fairly funny in that we actually have a lot more dps now than we used to.  All Templar's had going for them pre-LU13 was that we were ridiculously overpowered healers with all the group cures.  Our dps was worse than it is now.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is one set of opinions, but not one that holds much credance with me.</P> <P>Here is my view of the history of class balance for our class, which I consider to be rather more accurate than the one given above, based on the hundreds, nay, <U>thousands</U> of posts complaining about the sorry state of our class at the time.</P> <P>Pre-LU13 Templars were not (repeat <STRONG>not ever</STRONG>) overpowered. There were certainly one or two *bugged* issues that needed correcting (such as broken wards and lack of aggro to the caster from reactives), but these were just bugs not intended, however the basic implementation was simply closer to EQ1, with Templars being implemented (whether by design or otherwise) rather better healers and much worse in all other regards compared to other healing classes. I happened to like that design, indeed, I chose the class <EM>partially</EM> because of it, but it is now history.</P> <P>Post LU#13 / LU#15 our healing advantage was nerfed to practically zero, but we were left crippled in other areas, and therefore badly imbalanced and underpowered, and effectively a broken class for those of us who play in solo and small group settings. I will repeat: <STRONG><U>broken</U></STRONG>, yes, meant as worded. No, not broken for raids or hard/challenging full groups where the Templar was just healing - but totally broken in small groups where DPS mattered as much as healing did, and playing a Templar in such groups made one feel like a charity case, slowing down the group by being there! In short - this affected worst the normal casual player Templar, but not as much the hardcore raider (except when they were in small groups/solo, but their vastly superior gear from raiding mostly made up for it).</P> <P>People were telling me back then - please log your Templar and load your Fury, so we can get something actually done. Some people told me, they were booted from pickup groups to make way for Furies, and this was actually happening out there in Norrath to real players. They were right, a Templar was <U>dead weight</U> at that point, compared to a Fury, in small groups - which is why I created a Fury after LU#15 to start with! Meanwhile, the soloing Templar who could not get a group could only advance at about a third the rate of an equivalent Fury - the detailed comparative parsing in  cold hard data are on this board for all to see - yet the Fury could then heal at least as well (if not better) in groups.</P> <P>When vast numbers of Templars were coming to these boards day after day telling the same tale, as they were, it was clear that there was some kind of a problem, no matter how much a few players including yourself disagreed, nor how strongly you disagreed. A few of the hardcore raiders (not all!) never did agree and never will, indeed, just seemed to be laughing at those of us who wanted to play a Templar in small groups and solo settings and expect parity to other healers, but the tide of almost everyone else was saying the same thing.</P> <P>Those of us who were passionate about our class but felt abandoned and useless, did all we could do, and fed back our concerns to SOE, over and over, and many quit, retired or re-rolled as other classes. Those were dark days for many of us, but some of us did not give up.</P> <P>Due in no small part to concerted feedback, reports and hard data from myself and many many other Templars, the devs looked into it, and post-KoS, the bulk of the issue has now been addressed. Indeed, the devs specifically reported that, when they looked at the numbers, they were indeed not where they wanted them to be. Don't make me search for the dev post saying this, it is out there! This was vindication for the huge number of us who had been campaigning for a fix for so long. After this, once again, I could start to actually feel good about my favorite class, and no longer feel a charity case in groups.</P> <P>All of this is now frankly irrelevant, as we are where we are now, and will need to go forward from here. </P> <P>Today, we have a much better situation *once we have the AP skills* where we have much closer to parity again with the other priests. There is still work to do, especially for lower level Templars, where the DPS is still abysmal compared to other classes. Similarly, some newer quests (eg Fallen Dynasty monk trials) are trivial on some classes but nightmarishly difficult to <U>normally equipped</U> Templars. The DPS of Templars is still an issue in some areas, certainly, but of course it is much better now that it was for top-level Templars with AP skills.</P> <P>The Templar class has some strengths and some remaining issues. Those of us who care about the issues will keep trying to get those addressed. This will be achieved only by feedback of information (good and, yes, bad too).</P> <P>Felishanna</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:Going back a fair bit....<blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:While it could be me, I do point to PRIOR to Live Nerf 13, I was fine, POST I cannot solo. <hr></blockquote><div></div>Your comparing a period where Templar's were utterly overpowered to one where we are somewhat balanced.  Not only that, it's fairly funny in that we actually have a lot more dps now than we used to.  All Templar's had going for them pre-LU13 was that we were ridiculously overpowered healers with all the group cures.  Our dps was worse than it is now.<hr></blockquote>You are wrong. Templars were 'overpowered' pre-lu13 due to bugs with other classes. Also templar was then intended to be the best healer and worst at everything else. LU's 13 and 15 took the healing from us and left us only with the 'worst at everything else'. Our DPS has certainly gotten improvements, but there was a decimal error. When they gave us 20% more damage to our nukes, it should have been 200%. Now a templar will get benefit from the improved DPS only at higher levels with lots of achievement levels. Low level templars are still dealing with mediocre DPS. Also the fact that it is MELEE DPS means that we cannot always use it due to AE's. Also in order to get as high DPS as possible, a templar needs to use 2h weapon. This means lower avoidance and thus getting hit and interrupted more. With Yaulp, the interrupts are even more common. Anyway, like I wrote, I think the DPS should become 80% from the actual skills and only 20% from achievements. Currently it is about 25% from spells and 75% from achievements if you pick up the DPS lines. That is why low level templars still have huge DPS issue.<div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><BR>Also the fact that it is MELEE DPS means that we cannot always use it due to AE's. Also in order to get as high DPS as possible, a templar needs to use 2h weapon. This means lower avoidance and thus getting hit and interrupted more. With Yaulp, the interrupts are even more common. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, the 2 hander isn't necessary to achieve high DPS.  It can certainly help, but then again 2 handers tend to be better all around for most melee classes.  Yes, we'll rack up more interrupts, but that's largely not going to matter since most of the damage at that point is really coming from the 2 hander anyway. </P> <P>What's more, it's hardly as if it's unplayable.  For crying out loud, on Test server, with zero raid gear, my melee Templar was finishing fights in less than 20 seconds.  Seriously, how many interrupts do you think you can you rack up in less than 20 seconds?</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><BR>Anyway, like I wrote, I think the DPS should become 80% from the actual skills and only 20% from achievements. Currently it is about 25% from spells and 75% from achievements if you pick up the DPS lines. That is why low level templars still have huge DPS issue.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We have a Berserker in our guild that was only pulling around 200-300 DPS before Kingdom of Sky.  After placing 45 Achievements, he now pulls 900-1100 DPS on average, and I've been in groups with him where he spiked to well over 1500 DPS.  I know Monks who can pull down 200-300% more damage with certain, specific achievement builds.</P> <P>NOTE:  I actually have several Templars at various levels.  I'm failing to find these "huge DPS issues" at any level of the game.  For the first 20 levels, there isn't really <EM>any</EM> class with "huge DPS issues".  For the next 20 levels, soloing is slower than it was...but still very much possible (especially if you start in on the Zek/Enchanted Lands progressive quests, and move on to Feerrott/Everfrost/Lavastorm quests).  Once you get to around 45 or so, you should be working toward Sinking Sands and Fallen Dynasty, eventually moving to Tenebrous Tangle.  By that point, you should be working on at least 10 to 15 or so Achievements anyway. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Echgar]

The original poster asked a fairly simple question although it probably could have been asked in a more constructive manner.  After 5 pages of responses, if the question hasn't been answered I don't think it will be.I have seen several abuse reports about this thread and after cleaning it up once previously, I see some are continuing with unconstructive comments, attacks upon each other, and some more subtle digs.  Rather than try to clean this up again, I think it is just time to close this thread.It is clear that some of you just plain do not agree with each other as the same disagreements between the same people appear in thread after thread here.  While some of you may be frustrated with the state of your class, I would like to remind the Templar Community that frustration is not a license to abuse the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>Forum Rules of Conduct</a>.<div></div>