Nevermind

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><div>Good luck with the Templar fight guys.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>That is it, Yaulp as Caethre I think has said, is worse than useless in comparison.</div><div> </div><div>Posted a new thread so i don't stomp on Kendricke's who didn't want that kind of stuff in his thread.</div><div> </div><div>Fury is always on, with a proc for crit heal, crit hit.</div><div> </div><div>somebody read Templar dps request but got confused, when is Templar damage about 'melee' damage.</div><p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:25 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:42 PM</span></p>

[SenorPhrog]

<div></div><div></div>*sigh*/raises the drama flagGo team go!I wasn't bringing the Fury skill up in the other thread because I wanted to avoid dragging in a couple of Furies who frequently troll our boards to the mix (I don't fault them though...I read their boards as well since I have a Fury). Cold, I think comparing the two skills is a little apples vs oranges personally.   From a "fun" perspective?  Yeah the illusion I get is pretty cool, but from an actual utility perspective, these skills only proc like maybe 6% of the time.   Also, depending on which ability I want to proc limits me on my weapon choices (not the case in Yalup).   I'm not here championing the greatness of Yalup because I find it as kind of a fluff spell personally, but comparing it to Shapeshift doesn't seem a fair.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Radar-X on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:12 AM</span></p>

[Mabes]

<div></div>This thread's gonna burnnnnnn.....

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div>That is it, Yaulp as Caethre I think has said, is worse than useless in comparison.</div><div> </div><div>Posted a new thread so i don't stomp on Kendricke's who didn't want that kind of stuff in his thread.</div><div> </div><div>Fury is always on, with a proc for crit heal, crit hit.</div><div> </div><div>somebody read Templar dps request but got confused, when is Templar damage about 'melee' damage.</div><hr></blockquote><p>*blink*</p><p>Let examine this.</p><p>"Fury is always on, with a prock for crit heal, crit hit."</p><p>Um no. Depending on their weapon they can have a poison proc, or a 2% chance for a crit on a heal or a 2% chance for a damage spell crit.</p><p>That does not equal always on.</p><p>"When is Templar damage about 'melee' damage."</p><p>Since we equiped our first peice of plate gear and equiped a crushing weapon.</p><p>In general classes are balanced out so that if you are up close and personal with the mob, you have a higher level of mitigation (or in the case of monks higher avoidance) and less damage from a distance. You may have a few casting spells but your damage will be more heavily based in melee, and your abilities will concentrate on helping you either recover from being hit or avoid being hit.</p><p>If you cast from afar and stay out of the melee combat, your type of armor will reflect that. You will have low mitigation, fewer hit points and generally become a greasy smear if you gain to much aggro. However your spells hit a lot harder and you are able to take down the mob generally without drawing your weapon.</p><p>Templars are a plate class, with good mitigation. Even if one chooses power and wis over agility, hit points and mitigation, that does not change the fact that we are a plate class that is designed to take a hit and be involved in the melee fight.</p><p>The general complaint is that we heal no better then the other preist classes. The most requested solution seems to be to give us more DPS (I still dont' understand how that is a solution). Sony gave us more DPS. And rather then saying, alright we have more DPS I see general griping about either, Sony should have fixed it before the introduction of AA's, Sony gave us the wrong KIND of DPS, or Sony should have given us more DPS before AA's AND given us more healing power. </p><p> </p>

[Caethre]

<div></div><div></div><p>OOC.</p><p>As I said on the other thread, no analysis of our starter ability is complete and valid without comparison to the world in which it will be used, and part of that comparison, indeed in my opinion, the most vital part of that comparison, is to see how it stacks up against the equivalent starter ability for other priests.</p><p>The <u>Druid</u> (not just Fury, its common to druids, I suggest you swap that word, ColdMetal) starter ability is very nice. Yes, it only procs is it 6% of the time (for nukes) and 3% (for heals)? Something like that. But note that (a) it is permanent (b) it is just a nice little bonus to either the druid's DPS or HPS (c) the druid can choose which area to boost by weapon choice and finally (d) there is absolutely no negative effect. To be honest, and I don't say this without some hesitation, this but ability is possibly a little too strong for a 1-point starter, but should come in a little later and cost a little more, but there you go.</p><p>The negative effect on Cleric yaulp is really the total kicker though. Without it, the skill is at least of some marginal value, but with it, it does more harm to our capability than good. I don't know about most of you, but the average cleric with normal gear does not melee mobs to death - she kills the mob mostly with her spells, whist tanking and healing herself. This is because her spell DPS, low as it is compared to druid priests, is still MUCH higher than her melee DPS. Giving even a 100% increase in melee DPS would not make up for the number of extra interrupts that would lead to a large drop in Spell DPS during the fight, never mind a pitiful 20% or 30% increase.</p><p>If needed, I'll parse it all out on blue-con targets in Tenebrous Tangle, with and without Yaulp. Then I'll take Anna there, and see how she does. But I suspect every reader here already knows what the results would be.</p><p>Once again, the "cleric developer" was asleep whilst the "druid developer" took the choice portions. It is getting old. (Yes, I know there is no developer for each class, it's a metaphor, ok?).</p><p>Felishanna.</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:34 PM</span></p>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p>"Fury is always on, with a prock for crit heal, crit hit."</p><p>Um no. Depending on their weapon they can have a poison proc, or a 2% chance for a crit on a heal or a 2% chance for a damage spell crit.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Let me clarify.</p><p>The buff is always on. It does not need to be recast. However, the beneficial effect given by the buff depends on the item equipped in the Druid's main hand when the buff was cast. The Druid can choose <u>either</u> a heal crit boost (I believe it is 3%) <u>or</u> a nuke crit boost (I believe that is 6%) <u>or</u> a melee proc (no druid is going to be choosing this one, hehe).</p><p>It is correct, they do not get all three benefits, just the one of their choice. However, it remains on permanently, as a buff that lasts "until cancelled".</p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Let me clarify.</blockquote><p>The buff is always on. It does not need to be recast. However, the beneficial effect given by the buff depends on the item equipped in the Druid's main hand when the buff was cast. The Druid can choose <u>either</u> a heal crit boost (I believe it is 3%) <u>or</u> a nuke crit boost (I believe that is 6%) <u>or</u> a melee proc (no druid is going to be choosing this one, hehe).</p><p>It is correct, they do not get all three benefits, just the one of their choice. However, it remains on permanently, as a buff that lasts "until cancelled".</p><hr></blockquote><p>Okay I see what you mean there. And that makes sense.</p><p>I do not see it as a case of the devs for Clerics were asleep at the wheel. Rather I think that they are trying to bring Templars into End Game EQ1 Clerics. For some that may be a terrible idea, but some of us are rather excited about the prospect.</p>

[Zannah]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Let me clarify.</blockquote><p>The buff is always on. It does not need to be recast. However, the beneficial effect given by the buff depends on the item equipped in the Druid's main hand when the buff was cast. The Druid can choose <u>either</u> a heal crit boost (I believe it is 3%) <u>or</u> a nuke crit boost (I believe that is 6%) <u>or</u> a melee proc (no druid is going to be choosing this one, hehe).</p><p>It is correct, they do not get all three benefits, just the one of their choice. However, it remains on permanently, as a buff that lasts "until cancelled".</p><hr></blockquote><p>Okay I see what you mean there. And that makes sense.</p><p>I do not see it as a case of the devs for Clerics were asleep at the wheel. <i><b>Rather I think that they are trying to bring Templars into End Game EQ1 Clerics. For some that may be a terrible idea, but some of us are rather excited about the prospect.</b></i></p><hr></blockquote>at the level 60ish version - yaulp in EQLive was a moderately useful spell.  Keeping its effect on by constant refresh gave a marginal mana regen which was nice for long fights (like Xegony)This version is pathetic - even the Yaulp I got at lvl 2 or 3 in EQLive was better.Spent the point because I had no choice - and spending points on things I don't find all that useful to get to things I want.Making us into EQLive endgame clerics is something they will never do - The healing power of that EQLive Cleric at lvl 70 is godlike compared to the healing power of the lvl 70 EQ2 Templar.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Zannah on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><p>Maybe I should have clarified better.</p><p>Some of us are excited about Templars being brought more in line with end game EQ1 Clerics.</p><p>However that being said, we should not BE end game EQ1 Clerics. I do not think that we should have Complete Heal.</p><p>I am reffering to play style and the whole Battle Priest concept. NOT the extremely high healing power. The numbers won't transfer well and I would shudder to even ask them too.</p><blockquote><hr>Zannah wrote:<div></div><div><span>Making us into EQLive endgame clerics is something they will never do - The healing power of that EQLive Cleric at lvl 70 is godlike compared to the healing power of the lvl 70 EQ2 Templar.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Zannah on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p>Maybe I should have clarified better.</p><p>Some of us are excited about Templars being brought more in line with end game EQ1 Clerics.</p><p>However that being said, we should not BE end game EQ1 Clerics. I do not think that we should have Complete Heal.</p><p>I am reffering to play style and the whole Battle Priest concept. NOT the extremely high healing power. The numbers won't transfer well and I would shudder to even ask them too.</p><blockquote><hr>Zannah wrote:<div></div><div><span>Making us into EQLive endgame clerics is something they will never do - The healing power of that EQLive Cleric at lvl 70 is godlike compared to the healing power of the lvl 70 EQ2 Templar.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Zannah on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Zannah is correct in that statement.   While I'm sure many would relish the glory days of the EQ1 cleric there are very few people left who played one.   Even playing EQ1 for many years I'm only familiar with the old skill because of being a paladin.  A "battle priest" sounds like an exciting option to me but priests seem to be pointed more towards a support role and I just can't wrap my brain around how we are supposed to have meelee skills when we are constantly casting.</span><div></div>

[Xaax]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p>*blink*</p><p>Let examine this.</p><p>"Fury is always on, with a prock for crit heal, crit hit."</p><p>Um no. Depending on their weapon they can have a poison proc, or a 2% chance for a crit on a heal or a 2% chance for a damage spell crit.</p><p>That does not equal always on.</p><p>"When is Templar damage about 'melee' damage."</p><p>Since we equiped our first peice of plate gear and equiped a crushing weapon.</p><p>In general classes are balanced out so that if you are up close and personal with the mob, you have a higher level of mitigation (or in the case of monks higher avoidance) and less damage from a distance. You may have a few casting spells but your damage will be more heavily based in melee, and your abilities will concentrate on helping you either recover from being hit or avoid being hit.</p><p>If you cast from afar and stay out of the melee combat, your type of armor will reflect that. You will have low mitigation, fewer hit points and generally become a greasy smear if you gain to much aggro. However your spells hit a lot harder and you are able to take down the mob generally without drawing your weapon.</p><p>Templars are a plate class, with good mitigation. Even if one chooses power and wis over agility, hit points and mitigation, that does not change the fact that we are a plate class that is designed to take a hit and be involved in the melee fight.</p><p>The general complaint is that we heal no better then the other preist classes. The most requested solution seems to be to give us more DPS (I still dont' understand how that is a solution). Sony gave us more DPS. And rather then saying, alright we have more DPS I see general griping about either, Sony should have fixed it before the introduction of AA's, Sony gave us the wrong KIND of DPS, or Sony should have given us more DPS before AA's AND given us more healing power. </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>If this is so and clerics are suppose to melee then why do all priests do almost the exact same DPS with melee weapons? Non of us have CAs, all of our auto attack speed is exactly the same. The only difference is that Yelp will add about 10 DPS to your auto attack. If we are ment to melee why was perry take'n from us? If we were ment to melee, and dear god i sooooooo wish it was true, why does our melee DPS equal fury spell DPS?<p>Message Edited by Xaax on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:33 AM</span></p>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><p>Never played EQ1 or EQLive or any other MMO, so I have no experience with what you guys are talking about.</p><p>As to it being Druid and not Fury, I only have a Fury alt, and don't know anything about Wardens. (except my buddy Zegada)</p><p>I have a 38 Templar and a 40 Fury (dinged last night).</p><p>Someone mentioned getting into combat with my Templar for melee dps.  Hello.  Constant interrupts prevent that, I could be wearing cloth for all armor matters because if I get anywhere close to the mob, interrupted 2/3 or 3/4 times with maxed focus within any proximity to the mob.</p><p>I am sure it is because I don't know how to play a Templar after Live Nerf 13, but my Templar cannot keep a group standing against any mob not several levels below the group.  My Fury can against nearly any mob even a few/more levels above the group.</p><p>I was hoping for something helpful with Yaulp and others, but I see the fury even better, and the Templar even worse.</p><p>My level 38 Templar with a full group dies to blue con heroics in Zek, while my Fury with a 4 man group whips butt in runnyeye or Cazil Thule on yellow con and higher.</p><p>Good news for many of you is I will probably be forced soon to delete one character, and it will be my templar unless something changes.  Then you won't have to listen to me anymore. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I loved him and swore by my templar prior to Live Nerf 13 (I know I know 'get off it already') but post LN13 haven't had a successful trip anywhere with him even though I have gained 8 levels, most people won't group with him as the only healer and request my fury.</p><p> </p>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>Never played EQ1 or EQLive or any other MMO, so I have no experience with what you guys are talking about.</p><p>As to it being Druid and not Fury, I only have a Fury alt, and don't know anything about Wardens. (except my buddy Zegada)</p><p>I have a 38 Templar and a 40 Fury (dinged last night).</p><p>Someone mentioned getting into combat with my Templar for melee dps.  Hello.  Constant interrupts prevent that, I could be wearing cloth for all armor matters because if I get anywhere close to the mob, interrupted 2/3 or 3/4 times with maxed focus within any proximity to the mob.</p><p>I am sure it is because I don't know how to play a Templar after Live Nerf 13, but my Templar cannot keep a group standing against any mob not several levels below the group.  My Fury can against nearly any mob even a few/more levels above the group.</p><p>I was hoping for something helpful with Yaulp and others, but I see the fury even better, and the Templar even worse.</p><p>My level 38 Templar with a full group dies to blue con heroics in Zek, while my Fury with a 4 man group whips butt in runnyeye or Cazil Thule on yellow con and higher.</p><p>Good news for many of you is I will probably be forced soon to delete one character, and it will be my templar unless something changes.  Then you won't have to listen to me anymore. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I loved him and swore by my templar prior to Live Nerf 13 (I know I know 'get off it already') but post LN13 haven't had a successful trip anywhere with him even though I have gained 8 levels, most people won't group with him as the only healer and request my fury.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Not sure what to tell you man.   I'm not going to say you don't know how to play your Templar because I'm just not that arrogant to state it.  You really shouldn't be dying to level 38 heroics in Zek though with a full group.  Despite the insane amount of damage a Fury can pump out their heals are no match for a Templars.I'm not sure what LU#13 had to do with this subject in relation to DPS.  Yes there are more interrupts but that was across the board (including Furies).   I've got a Fury in the low 30's so I can tell you what is happening.   Your nuking hard with your Fury and its ending the fight quicker.   Feel free to tell me it isn't true.   If you try those tactics with a named or epic your going to get a new one ripped so fast it's insane.  DPS is sexy on a Fury but its short lived.</span><div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Not sure what to tell you man.   I'm not going to say you don't know how to play your Templar because I'm just not that arrogant to state it.  You really shouldn't be dying to level 38 heroics in Zek though with a full group.  Despite the insane amount of damage a Fury can pump out their heals are no match for a Templars.I'm not sure what LU#13 had to do with this subject in relation to DPS.  Yes there are more interrupts but that was across the board (including Furies).   I've got a Fury in the low 30's so I can tell you what is happening.   Your nuking hard with your Fury and its ending the fight quicker.   Feel free to tell me it isn't true.   If you try those tactics with a named or epic your going to get a new one ripped so fast it's insane.  DPS is sexy on a Fury but its short lived.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know, but most of the time i didn't have time to nuke with the fury for having to heal as much as possible, sometimes that entire goblin room would turn on my fury and i would have to just heal myself continously.</p><p>LN13 is where i suddenly couldn't solo with my templar, before it was tough, after 'nearly' impossible.</p><p>nice leather tank.</p><p> </p>

[Zannah]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sheybear wrote:<div></div><p>Maybe I should have clarified better.</p><p>Some of us are excited about Templars being brought more in line with end game EQ1 Clerics.</p><p>However that being said, we should not BE end game EQ1 Clerics. I do not think that we should have Complete Heal.</p><p>I am reffering to play style and the whole Battle Priest concept. NOT the extremely high healing power. The numbers won't transfer well and I would shudder to even ask them too.</p><hr></blockquote>in my experience - EQLive Clerics made horrible battle priests.  Gear was the only way you could achieve any semblance of DPS.  Also remember - EQLive clerics had several roots and several stuns - reverse damage shields and lots of other tricks.Even with the added summoned hammer proc - melee was never anything to speak of - it was always the modifier on that hammer and its damage that did the killing.  Blue's and light blues were my only targets at level 70 - and most of that was root - nuke - stun - root - repeat.  Yaulp modified dexterity (along with the stats on the hammer) and ensured a very 'procy' hammer.EQ2 is much more battle cleric oriented - even con's - occasionally an even con ^ (tho never another healer - they'll win every time).  Raiding is where I have the most issue - speed of casting - target switching - refresh times.Slowly taking out mobs is almost exactly the same - except the con of those mobs has changed from low blue to even in alot of cases.</span></div>

[Espyderman]

<div></div>Um guys, Druids dont heal for as much as we do, so it makes sense they get a proc to try and even it out, even though it still doesnt.

[Giallolas]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Espyderman wrote:<div></div>Um guys, Druids dont heal for as much as we do, so it makes sense they get a proc to try and even it out, even though it still doesnt.<hr></blockquote><p>Really?  I am certain that LU15 (I think it was) that made all priests heal equally.  I was really hoping that the AA's would take us past this conversation.  But here I see that we are back again.  Druids heal as well, higher utility, and dps more.  Sadly the AA's continue to support this.  Kendricke started a more positive thread in which we were offering suggestions to make Yaulp a bit more useful.</p><p>I expect that we will be largely ignored on this matter.  We have been with most others.  I still can't believe that the Devs thought our plea for more dps was our melee dps.  Heh, talk about missing the obvious.</p>

[mr23sgte]

<div></div><div>63 Fury here---my wife has a 60 Templar .................and you guys DO heal for more. Fury Debuffs suck .......... /end troll</div><p>Message Edited by mr23sgte on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[Xaax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mr23sgte wrote:<div></div><div>63 Fury here---my wife has a 60 Templar .................and you guys DO heal for more. Fury Debuffs suck .......... /end troll</div><p>Message Edited by mr23sgte on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p><hr><p><span>Really? So the 41 points that Mark adds to healing puts us over the top? Ohhh, yaa, I can see where we are clearly the superior healers =/</span></p></blockquote>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Espyderman wrote:<div></div>Um guys, Druids dont heal for as much as we do, so it makes sense they get a proc to try and even it out, even though it still doesnt.<hr></blockquote><p>Really?  I am certain that LU15 (I think it was) that made all priests heal equally.  I was really hoping that the AA's would take us past this conversation.  But here I see that we are back again.  Druids heal as well, higher utility, and dps more.  Sadly the AA's continue to support this.  Kendricke started a more positive thread in which we were offering suggestions to make Yaulp a bit more useful.</p><p>I expect that we will be largely ignored on this matter.  We have been with most others.  I still can't believe that the Devs thought our plea for more dps was our melee dps.  Heh, talk about missing the obvious.</p><hr></blockquote>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div>

[Giallolas]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Espyderman wrote:<div></div>Um guys, Druids dont heal for as much as we do, so it makes sense they get a proc to try and even it out, even though it still doesnt.<hr></blockquote><p>Really?  I am certain that LU15 (I think it was) that made all priests heal equally.  I was really hoping that the AA's would take us past this conversation.  But here I see that we are back again.  Druids heal as well, higher utility, and dps more.  Sadly the AA's continue to support this.  Kendricke started a more positive thread in which we were offering suggestions to make Yaulp a bit more useful.</p><p>I expect that we will be largely ignored on this matter.  We have been with most others.  I still can't believe that the Devs thought our plea for more dps was our melee dps.  Heh, talk about missing the obvious.</p><hr></blockquote>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wow, learn something new everyday.  You mean to tell me that for the last several months and thousands of posts later, that Furies never could heal like a Templar?  So all of the complaining on these boards was way off?  Man, I guess I'm seeing too much information on these boards being supported as facts, when in deed they're nothing more than conjectures.</p><p>So is this statament a conjecture, supposition, or is this finally fact?  I was raiding last night with 9 healers of various classes and all levels 60-64.  I was templar in group 1 and healed consistently at the top.  The only other fury in the raid was parsed consistently as healing the second best in the raid from group 3.  Now I know there are ways to goof around with the parsers, but this fury isn't what I'll call super savy in these things.  How did she land consistently 2nd out of 9 healers when two of them were templars?  Not by being a poor healer, that's for sure.  They have more direct heals than any other class.  Sounds like good healer to me.  Don't discount the fury and it's ability to keep a group alive.  I would still suggest they are very close to the Templar in healing power.  They may not have all the lotto heals we do, but they still heal marvelously well.</p>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>But is the fury healing for everything he is worth?  I mean we don't have much else to do.  and do you heal by 2x, since the fury is doing 5x the damage you do?</p><p>I know with my fury, i only help healing when the 'templar' is in trouble, ie can't keep up with damage.</p><p>course no high end raiding here lol</p><p> </p>

[rtoub]

<div></div><p>Lets have a clean fight now.   Ding... Ding.... Templar vs Fury round 3049958</p><p>Please, this is really getting old.</p><p>Looking back there were serveral requests for Yaulp and we got it.  Now we have it and the implentation really doesn't help much.  Unless you are out of power, cycling HO's will give higher DPS so why would you ever use it?</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><p>So is this statament a conjecture, supposition, or is this finally fact?  I was raiding last night with 9 healers of various classes and all levels 60-64.  I was templar in group 1 and healed consistently at the top.  The only other fury in the raid was parsed consistently as healing the second best in the raid from group 3.  Now I know there are ways to goof around with the parsers, but this fury isn't what I'll call super savy in these things.  How did she land consistently 2nd out of 9 healers when two of them were templars?  Not by being a poor healer, that's for sure.  They have more direct heals than any other class.  Sounds like good healer to me.  Don't discount the fury and it's ability to keep a group alive.  I would still suggest they are very close to the Templar in healing power.  They may not have all the lotto heals we do, but they still heal marvelously well.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Fury was in Group 1, I take it? </p><p>Not all groups are created equally.  Healers in the main tank group will almost certainly outparse (by a large margin, as well) against any other healers in non-MT groups. </p><p>In general, everyday, typical situations, Templars still tend to parse out more healing than Furies.  In more challenging, faster situations, Templars tend to parse out <em>much</em> more healing than Furies.  Use Arthian's parsing tool to pull more data on this.  Realize that these parses can't even take Reverence into account, as it's not currently showing in logs, anyway.</p><p> </p>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Fury was in Group 1, I take it?</p><p>Not all groups are created equally. Healers in the main tank group will almost certainly outparse (by a large margin, as well) against any other healers in non-MT groups.</p><p>In general, everyday, typical situations, Templars still tend to parse out more healing than Furies. In more challenging, faster situations, Templars tend to parse out <em>much</em> more healing than Furies. Use Arthian's parsing tool to pull more data on this. Realize that these parses can't even take Reverence into account, as it's not currently showing in logs, anyway.</p><hr></blockquote>What I'd like to see is Caethre start a full group with only her as the healer. Play and parse that for a while against typical group mobs, and maybe a named or two if they can find one. The logout, and pull her Fury in instead. Exactly the same group, but with her Fury instead. Repeat the test.THAT will show it. Having both in the same group won't, since the ways in which heals are done with two different classes in the same group is far different than with only one healer.

[Caethre]

<div></div><div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You do not put a context for this. If you are speaking of RAIDS with multiple healers and all such, I have no comment to make, I do not raid, I will let those that do comment on that. If you are speaking of the very top-end hardcore grouping content in the top instances, again, I don't do that kind of content, so again, I will not comment. I will however, comment on what I do do, and what I know inside out as both character classes.</p><p>For solo, small group and full group vs normal content settings, I consider this statement false, based on all the experience and evidence I have from my own play of both character classes. Those who are still stating that Templars are significantly better healers than Furies are wrong.</p><p><em><strong>I have not yet ever come across a circumstance in game where Fury Annaelisa could not heal where Templar Felishanna could have.</strong></em></p><p>Anyone* on my server is free to challenge me on this matter. I will replace their Templar in a normal setting as Annaelisa and I will (a) manage the healing that they managed and (b) add more to the DPS of the group at the same time. I have done this already countless times in the last few months, I know what I am talking about here. It is so darned obvious, people actually start asking for the Fury in preference.</p><p>EDIT: *of equivalent gear/spells - of course if you expect someone in normal gear to compete with someone else in full fabled, all master spells, etc, that would be an invalid comparison.</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 PM</span></p>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:What I'd like to see is Caethre start a full group with only her as the healer. Play and parse that for a while against typical group mobs, and maybe a named or two if they can find one. The logout, and pull her Fury in instead. Exactly the same group, but with her Fury instead. Repeat the test.THAT will show it. Having both in the same group won't, since the ways in which heals are done with two different classes in the same group is far different than with only one healer.<hr></blockquote><p>I've never tried this exactly as described. I have of course played both in similar groups (but not parsed them, however, I know how they worked).</p><p>I know what happens however, but a few here have heads in the sand and won't believe it unless it were done infront of their faces. Fury Annaelisa would win hands down, in that, she would heal as needed and contribute more with the extra power she has left over [Yes, in normal groups, the healer is never spending 100% of their mana on healing]. Those who have not played a Fury really have no idea how strong a healer the Fury class is, and keep imagining their Templars are far better, based on ... nothing. Parses in raid settings are irrelevant, there are many many other factors coming into play - a real comparison in normal settings for normal players involves a group of 2-6 players fighting content normal players fight, with one healer.</p><p>It would be difficult for me to set up such a test alone, however.</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>OOC.<p>It would be difficult for me to set up such a test alone, however.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I can run such a test tonight, side by side.  I have more than enough Guildmates willing to assist, and I have access to a 59 Fury as well as my 62 Templar.  Let me get the Fury to at least 61 first, and I'll be more than happy to run this with the EXACT same group.</p><p>While we're on the subject, I'd be curious to know what counts as "normal" content and what counts as "high end"?  Is Sanctum of the Scaleborn "normal"?  Temple of Scale?  Nest of the Great Egg? </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>While we're on the subject, I'd be curious to know what counts as "normal" content and what counts as "high end"? Is Sanctum of the Scaleborn "normal"? Temple of Scale? Nest of the Great Egg?</p><hr></blockquote>A fair question. I'd say that Sanctum is for sure for 60s (at least the top portions of it... gets harder deep in), and Egg probabily, as long as you're actually the appropriate level where everything is at LEAST yellow (ie: NOT a group of 60s trying it... closer to 64-65s).Anyplace that non-raiders can go and be successful against non-oranges with a single healer I'd consider "normal". Now I may have a higher standard, since I DO raid, and I did PP Very Difficult pre-KoS with one healer regularly, but hey. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Caethre]

<div></div><p>OOC.</p><p>Normal content?</p><p>For a full group - anywhere that a group of non-raiding players with at best legendary (and often rather lower) and at best Adept3 (and usually much that is lower) spells/combat arts form up as a pick-up group, with players who do not always know eachother, and of very varying playing abilities, but also might or might not have friends or guildmates in group also. Target location - anywhere that the group can reasonably XP without great risk, or complete a quest, or possibly target a specific named creature that is considered within the capability of that group. Plenty of room for error, and not at the extreme limit of the group's capabilities.</p><p>For a small group of 2-4 players - more usually people you know a little better, sometimes friends, but very random class mixes, usually targeting even con heroics or yellow con solo mobs, but can be lower if the quest being worked on so demands.</p><p>I cannot comment on those KOS zones. KOS has been out 10 days, and Ive spent 9 of those crafting. Being the first 70 Sage on my server has meant not leaving Qeynos much at all yet.</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>While we're on the subject, I'd be curious to know what counts as "normal" content and what counts as "high end"? Is Sanctum of the Scaleborn "normal"? Temple of Scale? Nest of the Great Egg?</p><hr></blockquote>A fair question. I'd say that Sanctum is for sure for 60s (at least the top portions of it... gets harder deep in), and Egg probabily, as long as you're actually the appropriate level where everything is at LEAST yellow (ie: NOT a group of 60s trying it... closer to 64-65s).Anyplace that non-raiders can go and be successful against non-oranges with a single healer I'd consider "normal". Now I may have a higher standard, since I DO raid, and I did PP Very Difficult pre-KoS with one healer regularly, but hey. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote><p>Which leads to my second point.  New dungeon content within Kingdom of Sky has additional tactical elements to consider that simply didn't exist on the same level in previous content:  "social aggro" and "chain hate".  Adds are rampant in Kingdom of Sky. So are trains.  I haven't seen the level of quick hate generation I'm seeing in Sanctum of the Scaleborn since my early days in Karnor's Castle. </p><p>Frankly, I'm glad to see it.  I'm estactic to see it.  Locking down adds increases my vaue in groups, particularly when the adds are separate encounters.  At that point, I'm swapping targets, keeping my group healed, dumping infirms and stuns on adds, and altogether watching as I keep my group standing in a situation that other groups with different healers might be hard pressed to survive, much less come out ahead. </p><p>How do you parse the value of control spells when some dishonourable cur decides to bring an additional reaver or sentry on to your group while you're taking down a named?  I suppose you could hang out near the entrance taking down the relatively easy spawns in the Orate room, or you can move in a bit and start handling fast spawns and lots of them with a healer that's dedicated to the cause, while filling other slots in the group with real DPS classes that aren't splitting their time between defense and offense.</p><p>I know where I'm personaly having the most fun, and it's in those challenging situations.  Other Templars are stating the same or similar things.  Taking down the Kettleleader or the Chamberlain at level 61 or 62 is F-U-N for me! </p><p>Honestly, I really wish we didn't have to keep having these "Fury vs. Templar" discussions all the time.  I have nothing against Furies.  I think Furies are a great class.  I just feel that it fits a much different playstyle than I enjoy, however.  I like being the dedicated healer.  However, I often grow bored against easier content.  Basically, if I have time to nuke in a group...the group's not pulling fast enough, or pulling content that's too easy for what we have available.   At least, that's my take on it.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>I cannot comment on those KOS zones. KOS has been out 10 days, and Ive spent 9 of those crafting.</p><hr></blockquote>With respect, the old arguments don't work the same in the Overrealm zones. 

[Meeker]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>Someone mentioned getting into combat with my Templar for melee dps.  Hello.  <strong>Constant interrupts prevent that, I could be wearing cloth for all armor matters because if I get anywhere close to the mob, interrupted 2/3 or 3/4 times with maxed focus within any proximity to the mob.</strong></p><p>I am sure it is because I don't know how to play a Templar after Live Nerf 13, but my Templar cannot keep a group standing against any mob not several levels below the group.  My Fury can against nearly any mob even a few/more levels above the group.</p><p>I was hoping for something helpful with Yaulp and others, but I see the fury even better, and the Templar even worse.</p><p>My level 38 Templar with a full group dies to blue con heroics in Zek, while my Fury with a 4 man group whips butt in runnyeye or Cazil Thule on yellow con and higher.</p><p>Good news for many of you is I will probably be forced soon to delete one character, and it will be my templar unless something changes.  Then you won't have to listen to me anymore. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I loved him and swore by my templar prior to Live Nerf 13 (I know I know 'get off it already') but post LN13 haven't had a successful trip anywhere with him even though I have gained 8 levels, most people won't group with him as the only healer and request my fury.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Hi, Fury here. In looking at your first AA i've gotta admit you guys got hosed. I feel it is unfair to FORCE you to spend points on something that has a serious negative. Correct me if i'm wrong but you're the only priest class that has to deal with that. Ok so i'm with you on the unfair.</p><p>CoLDMeTaL, i had a very similar problem. My leather-wearing butt got interrupted 3/4 of the time until i managed to push my agility up high enough.  I can't tell you the number of times Shey had to repeat "It doesn't matter what kind of armor you're wearing <em>if they can't hit you</em>." Pushing my agility dropped the number of interrupts i suffer sharply. You might want to look into agility heavy accessories or something.</p>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>I know where I'm personaly having the most fun, and it's in those challenging situations.  Other Templars are stating the same or similar things.  Taking down the Kettleleader or the Chamberlain at level 61 or 62 is F-U-N for me! </p><p><font color="#ffff00">I don't know these mobs, for the reasons given above. However, I suspect most strongly that these are not targets for normal groups at level 61/62, but more likely targets for hardcore groups where all six players know eachother and have a high degree of knowledge of eachother's limits and capabilities.</font></p><p>Honestly, I really wish we didn't have to keep having these "Fury vs. Templar" discussions all the time.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">So, feel free to simply ignore the discussions. No-one has a gun to your head, forcing you to post... or even read... do they?</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I will keep initiating them, and contributing to them, however, because to me, it is the number one issue in the game right now that needs fixing, in my opinion. Clearly many others agree with me in this, to a lesser or greater extent.</font></p><p>Basically, if I have time to nuke in a group...the group's not pulling fast enough, or pulling content that's too easy for what we have available.   At least, that's my take on it.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">And I have exactly the opposite take. If I have not time to do other things than heal (whichever character I am playing), then the group is extending itself overmuch, and I will <u>insist</u> it either slows the pull rate or tackles easier content. My job is to keep people alive, not watch a wipe due to some unforseen nonsense with people taking things too far.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">And this is exactly why, with the free time I have (which I insist upon, to be able to keep normal groups of very variable and unstable make-up on some occasions, alive), I can and will always add more to a group with a Fury than with a Templar, due to the huge imbalance between the classes in every area except healing. But as to the healing itself, I can and do match with Anna what Feli can do. It is *harder work* with Anna, that much is true, but the results are she does better.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Of course, the difference is quite small in full groups, even so as to be insignificant if the group is a good one. However, in the more usual situations I am in, it is a small group of 2-4 players, on much easier content, and at that point, the Templar now "sucks" sigh.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The usual answer you give at this point is "then you should play a Fury". So, all casual players have to play Furies to be healers do they? My answer is, fix the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class so it can contribute as well as the Fury class in casual-style groups (including small groups and solo into the bargain).</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div>With respect, the old arguments don't work the same in the Overrealm zones. <hr></blockquote><p>I may end up agreeing or not with this, but I will reserve judgement on it. I tend not to comment on things I have not done myself, other than speculate. Which is also why I've said almost nothing on the AP skills yet, other than Yaulp.</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:...<font color="#ffff00">but more likely targets for hardcore groups where all six players know eachother and have a high degree of knowledge of eachother's limits and capabilities.</font><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I advise my own members that some classes require more skill than others, and some classes are easier to solo with than others.  I certainly don't steer new players toward warriors when they're asking for a strong soloing fighter class, just as I couldn't point them to bards or enchanters either.  However, the indirect power these classes can bring to a group setting is incredible when taken in combination with certain other classes.  Truly, the group becomes greater than just the sum of the individual parts. </p><p>There are classes that simply fit different playstyles better, just as there are games which do so as well.  There's nothing wrong with having classes that don't fit every mold.  That doesn't indicate an imbalance at all.  It merely shows diversity and distinction. </p><p>I've said it all along and I'll continue to do so:  Templars work best in harder situations.  For players that like that, there's simply no substitute in my eyes for a Templar. </p><p> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:28 PM</span></p>

[Giallolas]

<div></div><p>Well the Fury vs. Templar fight is old.  I agree.  The Fury simply wins almost every fight.  Our control spells are kind of a side show we run, as is evidenced by our AA's that do not support it much at all.  Even the druid does better at this than we do.  Take a close look at Root.  Lasts longer and is more dependable than Infirmity.  Allows a toon to actually hit the mob a few times before it breaks.</p><p>Back to back fun fights, I think we do pretty good in.  I don't think we excel at it...I think we do very well at it.  I think a druid can do just as well in those too.  As can the shaman.  SOE made sure of it.  This is their intent that no group feels they HAVE to have a Templar to succeed.  Well enough.</p><p>But this forum originally was a place for us to complain about Yaulp.  Showing how it compares to other AA's is valid and our only way to compare and consider similar game mechanics.  If, once more, one of these proves to be vastly better than the other, it should be our privilege to point it out.  It's coincidental that once more it's the druids that we perceive to have the good upgrade and we get the hose.  If we were to simply trade Yaulp for their shapechange thingie, you bet we'd hear all sorts of injustices and wrong doing.  Seemingly no priest class would take Yaulp if they had the option.  Yet we are stuck with it.</p><p>I beg for a fix.  I beg for a change.  If I can't get any of those then I beg for a reason why we keep getting....crap.</p>

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div>I beg for a fix.  I beg for a change.  If I can't get any of those then I beg for a reason why we keep getting....crap.<hr></blockquote>You haven't been reading the posts above have you! Apparently, it's because Templars are better in harder situations.If they gave us useful AA's, some DPS and mezz spells that actually worked properly then the situation wouldn't be as hard now would they <span>:smileyvery-happy:Then where would we be? Enjoying ourselves more I guess.</span></span><div></div>

[Whitemane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You do not put a context for this. If you are speaking of RAIDS with multiple healers and all such, I have no comment to make, I do not raid, I will let those that do comment on that. If you are speaking of the very top-end hardcore grouping content in the top instances, again, I don't do that kind of content, so again, I will not comment. I will however, comment on what I do do, and what I know inside out as both character classes.</p><p>For solo, small group and full group vs normal content settings, I consider this statement false, based on all the experience and evidence I have from my own play of both character classes. Those who are still stating that Templars are significantly better healers than Furies are wrong.</p><p><em><strong>I have not yet ever come across a circumstance in game where Fury Annaelisa could not heal where Templar Felishanna could have.</strong></em></p><p>Anyone* on my server is free to challenge me on this matter. I will replace their Templar in a normal setting as Annaelisa and I will (a) manage the healing that they managed and (b) add more to the DPS of the group at the same time. I have done this already countless times in the last few months, I know what I am talking about here. It is so darned obvious, people actually start asking for the Fury in preference.</p><p>EDIT: *of equivalent gear/spells - of course if you expect someone in normal gear to compete with someone else in full fabled, all master spells, etc, that would be an invalid comparison.</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I'll take you up on this.We're on the same server,  If you'd like as I dont have a lot of hard data to back it up just some old parse's I did long ago.</p><p>Give Gemmas a shout I should be on later tonight.</p><p> </p><p>Gemma(s) 64 Templar</p>

[Whitemane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>OOC.</p><p>Normal content?</p><p>For a full group - anywhere that a group of non-raiding players with at best legendary (and often rather lower) and at best Adept3 (and usually much that is lower) spells/combat arts form up as a pick-up group, with players who do not always know eachother, and of very varying playing abilities, but also might or might not have friends or guildmates in group also. Target location - anywhere that the group can reasonably XP without great risk, or complete a quest, or possibly target a specific named creature that is considered within the capability of that group. Plenty of room for error, and not at the extreme limit of the group's capabilities.</p><p>For a small group of 2-4 players - more usually people you know a little better, sometimes friends, but very random class mixes, usually targeting even con heroics or yellow con solo mobs, but can be lower if the quest being worked on so demands.</p><p>I cannot comment on those KOS zones. KOS has been out 10 days, and Ive spent 9 of those crafting. Being the first 70 Sage on my server has meant not leaving Qeynos much at all yet.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Just one comment to this and I hope it doesnt sound too harsh. If you do NOT have all adept III's for your healing spells you have NO cause in my opinion to complain about your healing abilities.Especailly after LU13. Before this adept I's in most cases would do (and in alot of cases made no difference).</p><p>This isnt directed at you specifically Caethre but I am amazed that people do not spend the time to upgrade at least thier heals to adept III. The difference is staggering. ( works the same way for Fury heals before anyone goes there)</p><p>Hell I was 50 for weeks before I even began to save for my pony. Pointless to have a nice ride when your group is dead. Im not saying you need multiple masters ( hell I only find master of spells I dont use much) but really especailly with KoS and causual playing making a couple plat a week is easy.</p><p> </p><p>Gemma, 64 Templar</p><p> </p>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>Whitename, i am sure Caethre has all her spells adept3'd. so please dont quote her <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Whitemane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><p>Well the Fury vs. Templar fight is old.  I agree.  The Fury simply wins almost every fight.  Our control spells are kind of a side show we run, as is evidenced by our AA's that do not support it much at all.  Even the druid does better at this than we do.  Take a close look at Root.  Lasts longer and is more dependable than Infirmity.  Allows a toon to actually hit the mob a few times before it breaks.</p><p>--------------------</p><p>And this is where I disagree =D.</p><p>I can out heal a fury anyday. Heck I can out heal most healers I know =D. Its what I do. I only play the one character so I try and get the most out of it I can.</p><p>Root is great. Buut issue here is that sure you can get a couple hits in before it breaks buut if you're hitting it, its also in range to hit you. I'd rather infirm it and take totally out of the picture. especailly in dungeons where you dont have the space to root the mob out of ran</p><p>Anyways the argument is kinda circular anyways as there are times when a particular Healer class is better than another due to mob circumstance. What I dont agree with is the statement that ANY particular Healer subcluss is hands down better than another. </p><p>Anyways have to run +D</p><p>Gemma 64 Templar </p></blockquote>

[Whitemane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><p>Whitename, i am sure Caethre has all her spells adept3'd. so please dont quote her <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote><p>Probably :smileyhappy: but it was her note I was responding too hence the qoute =D</p>

[GoodCitizenDan]

<div>Yaulp sucks, no doubt.   It doesn't really matter though.  We get some decent abilities farther down the AA line, and they'll make us much more effective healers in the end.</div><div> </div><div>As for the whole fury vs templar thing, I don't really see the point of it.  Furies have some decent heals, but the only thing they really have over a templar is "Back into the Fray".  They can keep up with heals 95% of the time, but have serious trouble when you start getting Add number 3 or 4 and need really serious healing.  In return for slightly less healing power in the upper end, they can solo and out DPS us by a wide margin.  If I wanted to DPS I would have made a warlock, and if I wanted to solo I would have made a conjurer.  I chose templar for healing power, and thats what we have.</div><div> </div><div>I hear alot of people saying that templars can't heal now.  NO, thats simply not the case.  The fact is, that after DoF was released it became MUCH more difficult to play a templar.  Honestly, I'm happy they did it.  It really takes skill and planning to play a templar these days, taking stock of what we are currently fighting, figuring out how much healing they're gonna need 3 seconds from now(cast times), and making sure you can chain out that much healing at a consistent pace.  AA's are gonna help SOOOOO MUCH in that regard.  People disregard that 10% decreased cast time on the int line, but thats gonna be our bread and butter once every templar gets it.  If people die in my group, its because there was a large spike in mob DPS while I was casting my group reactive(not counting excitable wizards).</div><div> </div><div>Another thing that I simply don't think gets enough emphasis is your buffs.  Jesus, make sure they're adept3 people.  It makes all the difference in the world when you're fighting in the upper bounds of what your party is capable of.  Any normal templar should get reactives first, then buffs(Symbol line, then bravery line, then redoubt line, then benediction line).  If you're in a raiding guild and are consistently assigned to the secondary group, then get single target reactive followed by both direct heals, then get the rest in the same order.  Of course, that doesn't take spell progression or how fast you can acquire rares into account, but its a general guidline...</div>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div><p>I'll take you up on this.</p><p>Give Gemmas a shout I should be on later tonight.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes in principle. I suspect from your post we have a timezone clash (it is 1.30am to me as I write this, I'm heading to sleep shortly), but that can be arranged around. The four level difference is a bit too much though, and mentoring can skew things somewhat, might have to discuss that (or wait until its gone). And I'm assuming you have the groupmates, we will have to discuss them too (my characters have certain, shall we say, alignment restrictions), but again, nothing that can't be worked round. All these things could be settled. We would however have to compare gear/spell qualities.</p><p>The most important matter however, is test conditions. I am *always* talking about normal settings, normal groups, normal content, and I always specifically do NOT talk about high-end hardcore content. The target environment would have to be something appropriate in line with the normal casual-playstyle hunting environment I am referring to, in zones we have both hunted in before at least a little. Similarly, the test conditions would have to be.. you guessed it, normal, not super-min/max'd. I leave others to look at the comparisons of classes in hardcore and min/max'd such settings, I'll concentrate on what average players do most of the time, and seek balance for that setup.</p><blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div><p>I can out heal a fury anyday. Heck I can out heal most healers I know =D. Its what I do. I only play the one character so I try and get the most out of it I can.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Confidence is a good thing (sincerely, that is not jest).</p><p>However, I call your confidence totally mis-placed, sir. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As I have said previously, I have not yet encountered a situation where Fury Annaelisa could not heal quite sufficiently and as well as Templar Felishanna, I am a long-term experienced healer-player, and I do not expect you to be any different (assuming again same level, equivalent gear, the gaming environment I and thousands of other casual-playstyle players play in).</p><p>I don't care if it is a group of 2 or 6 or any number in between. In a full group, I would not expect a great deal of difference between us, as per SOE's intention. In a smaller group, your Templar will I am afraid suffer, as I can't see any spells my Templar has to match the 200+dps that Anna can kick out whilst <u>also</u> healing in small groups. I can match a Templar for healing in a small group anyday, AND also make them look weak in terms of DPS at the same time. That is my bravado, to yours. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>All that said, I'd still prefer a level 60 (or I guess 59-61, since one level makes small enough difference) to compare against. This is why, really,  could do with some help to actually do the test between my own two characters, who have almost exactly equivalent gear and spells and who are both level 60, with the added bonus of both being played by the same player. What is more, both of them would be deterimined to beat the other (I'm a roleplayer at the end of the day, even if I know my Templar is weak next to my Fury, she* would never accept such an idea!).</p><p> </p>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><p>Whitename, i am sure Caethre has all her spells adept3'd. so please dont quote her <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote><p>Felishanna is a 70 Sage. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes, all of the spells 1-60 of both of mine (not just the heals) are Adept3.</p><p>However, many people I group with, that is most certainly not the case. In pick-up groups especially, the skill levels are ... random.</p>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>GoodCitizenDan wrote:<div> </div><div>Furies have some decent heals, but the only thing they really have over a templar is "Back into the Fray".  They can keep up with heals 95% of the time, but have serious trouble when you start getting Add number 3 or 4 and need really serious healing.  In return for slightly less healing power in the upper end, they can solo and out DPS us by a wide margin.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">Even using your words and your assessment (not saying I accept them, just using them for the sake of debate), for casual playstyle players, is it really fair that one priest class can heal 5% better than a second priest class, but the second priest class gets the entirety of "solo and out DPS us by a wide margin" (my parses say 300%). Isn't that an extremely imbalanced tradeoff?</font></div><div> </div><div>If I wanted to DPS I would have made a warlock, and if I wanted to solo I would have made a conjurer.  I chose templar for healing power, and thats what we have.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">I've heard that statement before, but, no disrespect, but it is nonsense. All* classes need to be able to solo and "do" DPS to some appreciably comparable degree. Within the priest archetype, the difference needs and MUST be small. Saying priests are just healers is simply wrong. In small groups and solo settings, we have to be more than "just healers", because healing won't kill the mob, get the writ done, get the quest done, etc. Why should Templars be forced to go on their knees to friends begging for help, or accept that a Fury can do these things not 110% or 120% as fast, but more like 300% as fast? Not all of us are hardcore players, and we do not want a gimped class for our playstyle. This is where the complaints come from.</font></div><div> </div><div>I hear alot of people saying that templars can't heal now....</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff00">I've never said that. We heal fine. It's everything other than healing that I am concerned about. In settings where we only need to heal, our class is solid. However, for casual-playstyle players, who are often in small groups and soloing, those "everything else" criteria are a huge part of our game. <u>Templar should absolutely NOT be a hardcore only class</u>. I'll repeat that point til it hits home (not meaning to you, but in general).</font><hr></div></blockquote>

[GoodCitizenDan]

<div>Don't get me wrong, I would love to get more DPS and definately think we are getting the short end of the stick in that department.  Currently, I don't think the added DPS furies get is justified based on their slightly less effective heals.</div><div> </div><div>Still, though, I would never opt for +100%, 200%, or even 500% more DPS in exchange for our healing powers.  Even if I was given the chance to switch to fury with fully upgraded heals and armor roughly equivilant to what I have, I wouldn't take it.  A defiler?  Maybe.  A Fury?  Don't make me laugh.</div><div> </div><div>I guess that for the casual group it wouldnt matter.  Anyone can heal through yellow mobs even with 2 or 3 or 4 on the tank.   When the crap really hits the fan, though, templars are the class with the windex.  The only major limiting factor on our heals is the group reactive's cast/recast time, and how we have to set up heals before hand so that the tank doesnt drop while we're casting.  That'll be taken care of(atleast partially) by the AA's in our int line.</div><div> </div><div>If they're passing out more DPS, I'll surely hold out my hand for some, but I don't see it as being an issue except when soloing or maybe duoing with a guardian....</div>

[Chog]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>OOC.<blockquote> </blockquote><p>Yes in principle. I suspect from your post we have a timezone clash (it is 1.30am to me as I write this, I'm heading to sleep shortly), but that can be arranged around. <font color="#ffff00">The four level difference is a bit too much though, and mentoring can skew things somewhat, might have to discuss that (or wait until its gone).</font> And I'm assuming you have the groupmates, we will have to discuss them too (my characters have certain, shall we say, alignment restrictions), but again, nothing that can't be worked round. All these things could be settled. We would however have to compare gear/spell qualities.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>The only thing the four level difference will have an effect on will be the amount of power the healer will have.  For any spell above the lower level tester, simply use the older version (level 47-60) instead of the new upgrade.  Since spells no longer increase as you level the higher levels will have almost no impact (if any) against the lower level healer as long as they do not use the higher level spells.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Of course you can. After all, reactives do kick in first leaving less for the fury to heal. But if you try it on separate groups, the fury will most likely outheal you when compared to amount healed per time unit.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Which leads to my second point.  New dungeon content within Kingdom of Sky has additional tactical elements to consider that simply didn't exist on the same level in previous content:  "social aggro" and "chain hate".  Adds are rampant in Kingdom of Sky. So are trains.  I haven't seen the level of quick hate generation I'm seeing in Sanctum of the Scaleborn since my early days in Karnor's Castle.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I'd say this is greatly dependant on the tank and his skill. I friend of mine wiped in Sanctum in a full group with 67 pally and 65 templar when fighting lvl 63 mobs due to this friendly aggro. I was there tanking with my lvl 60 monk and we wiped once when I pulled a pair of 67^^^'s. Only once did we have more than 2 mobs attacking us.</font></p><p>Frankly, I'm glad to see it.  I'm estactic to see it.  Locking down adds increases my vaue in groups, particularly when the adds are separate encounters.  At that point, I'm swapping targets, keeping my group healed, dumping infirms and stuns on adds, and altogether watching as I keep my group standing in a situation that other groups with different healers might be hard pressed to survive, much less come out ahead.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Like said, this is not needed if the pulls work ok. Also having a true chanter instead of ghetto one is good.</font></p><p>How do you parse the value of control spells when some dishonourable cur decides to bring an additional reaver or sentry on to your group while you're taking down a named?  I suppose you could hang out near the entrance taking down the relatively easy spawns in the Orate room, or you can move in a bit and start handling fast spawns and lots of them with a healer that's dedicated to the cause, while filling other slots in the group with real DPS classes that aren't splitting their time between defense and offense.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">Value spells? When I am in group with my templar, the targets die so fast that I have no time to use my pacify. Or if they dont, they will be hitting so much that I dont have time to swap targets. It is all about taking enough DPS to the group.</font></p><p>I know where I'm personaly having the most fun, and it's in those challenging situations.  Other Templars are stating the same or similar things.  Taking down the Kettleleader or the Chamberlain at level 61 or 62 is F-U-N for me! </p><p>Honestly, I really wish we didn't have to keep having these "Fury vs. Templar" discussions all the time.  I have nothing against Furies.  I think Furies are a great class.  I just feel that it fits a much different playstyle than I enjoy, however.  I like being the dedicated healer.  However, I often grow bored against easier content.  Basically, if I have time to nuke in a group...the group's not pulling fast enough, or pulling content that's too easy for what we have available.   At least, that's my take on it.</p><blockquote> <font color="#ffff00">Well, if they actually balanced priest, you wouldn't have to. As for pulling too slowly, I see no relation here. If someone pull faster than the group can kill, where is the point? To make a templar happy? I always have time for a nuke or two but since those are as puny as they are, I see no point. If my nuke did 5x the damage with longer cast time and recast, I would use it when I am not busy healing. Then again, furies do use their nukes. And heal as well as we do.</font><blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div></blockquote></blockquote>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>The most important matter however, is test conditions. I am *always* talking about normal settings, normal groups, normal content, and I always specifically do NOT talk about high-end hardcore content. </p><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>As I have said previously, I have not yet encountered a situation where Fury Annaelisa could not heal quite sufficiently and as well as Templar Felishanna.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Therein lies a great deal of what I feel is your disbelief in our strengths, which lie beyond "normal" everyday, typical, run-of-the-mill situations where any preist would do.  Personally, I specifically go out of my way to find situations where my healing is fully utilized - where the amount of healing I can bring forth isn't overkill.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You do not put a context for this. If you are speaking of RAIDS with multiple healers and all such, I have no comment to make, I do not raid, I will let those that do comment on that. If you are speaking of the very top-end hardcore grouping content in the top instances, again, I don't do that kind of content, so again, I will not comment. I will however, comment on what I do do, and what I know inside out as both character classes.</p><p>For solo, small group and full group vs normal content settings, I consider this statement false, based on all the experience and evidence I have from my own play of both character classes. Those who are still stating that Templars are significantly better healers than Furies are wrong.</p><p><em><strong>I have not yet ever come across a circumstance in game where Fury Annaelisa could not heal where Templar Felishanna could have.</strong></em></p><p>Anyone* on my server is free to challenge me on this matter. I will replace their Templar in a normal setting as Annaelisa and I will (a) manage the healing that they managed and (b) add more to the DPS of the group at the same time. I have done this already countless times in the last few months, I know what I am talking about here. It is so darned obvious, people actually start asking for the Fury in preference.</p><p>EDIT: *of equivalent gear/spells - of course if you expect someone in normal gear to compete with someone else in full fabled, all master spells, etc, that would be an invalid comparison.</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well obviouslly you could put as many restrictions as you want on this and could make it situational.  Are we talking avoidance tanks or damage taking tanks.  Raid environment or group environment?   My statement which I make having a mid level 30's Fury which I think gives me enough knowledge to understand them I  have to stand by.  Honestly the idea of parsing makes me want to watch paint dry.  There are too many variables to really do this succesfully.  I look at the power reactives have and the power HOT's have and I see them at a relatively similar point.   I look at the single point heals and my Templar wins every time.  Just IMO though.</span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span>Most Templars who have parsed against a Fury on both sides will tell you while healing has been brought more in line, its hardly equivalent.  I can outheal a Fury within 3 levels of me any day of the week.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Of course you can. After all, reactives do kick in first leaving less for the fury to heal. But if you try it on separate groups, the fury will most likely outheal you when compared to amount healed per time unit.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>It's a difficult thing to prove man and I'm not in any way saying you are wrong.  You've always impressed on me that even in your most agressive moments you've got an understanding of the mechanics.   I can't think of  way to setup a clean test for this.  Variances in armor, stats, spell levels, mob types, etc....  There is just too much that can't be accounted for.</span><div></div>

[Nari]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>I can run such a test tonight, side by side.  I have more than enough Guildmates willing to assist, and I have access to a 59 Fury as well as my 62 Templar.  Let me get the Fury to at least 61 first, and I'll be more than happy to run this with the EXACT same group.</p><p>While we're on the subject, I'd be curious to know what counts as "normal" content and what counts as "high end"?  Is Sanctum of the Scaleborn "normal"?  Temple of Scale?  Nest of the Great Egg? </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>That content sounds normal to me.  Since the fury is not at T7, it does seem unbalanced toward the templar from the get-go.  Is it possible for you to mentor to the same level as the fury?</div>

[Andu]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GoodCitizenDan wrote:<div> </div><div>In return for slightly less healing power in the upper end, they can solo and out DPS us by a wide margin.  If I wanted to DPS I would have made a warlock, and if I wanted to solo I would have made a conjurer.  I chose templar for healing power, and thats what we have.</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>I am really getting fed up with reading this.</p><p>It's not that I don't think your position is valid. If you want a solid healer, then Templar delivers (as does Mystic, Defiler, Inquisitor, Fury and Warden). I am glad you are happy with it.</p><p>However, why do you have a problem with others asking for balanced DPS. You might not want to solo but a lot of people do.</p><p>I for one <strong>do not</strong> want to solo. Like you say, I made a Templar to group with. However, you cannot deny that the game now gives a lot of occasions where soloing is unavoidable. For example, last night:</p><p>a) I wanted to increase my status as I have half an eye on the Baron title. 2 million status points to buy it is a lot. However, some friends in my guild noted that they were able to knock off about 25,000 points for every writ run they do and they were completing them every 15 - 20 mins.</p><p>So I pick up a few writs and start. If you have a level 63 Templar, I should not need to explain that after 15 mins I was not even halfway through them. It was also ridiculously boring.</p><p>By your logic, I am not allowed to have a Baron title because I am a Templar, or if I get one, it should take me two or three times longer than certain other priests and five or six times longer than certain other classes.</p><p>What exactly do I get in compensation for this as a Templar?</p><p> </p><p>b) After the writ debacle I decided that I needed a group and fast if I was going to do anything meaningful that evening. It took me 20 minutes to get one.</p><p>Why am I not allowed to do anything constructive in those 20 mins, at a similar pace to other classes?</p><p>What exactly do I get in compensation for this as a Templar? Please do not say I get to group more easily. In those 20 mins there was a group looking for DPS classes and another looking for a healer. Not a Templar though, they already had one.</p><p>c) Once the group disbanded, it was almost time for me to log off. I decided to knock off some quick quests in TT. One was for killing flies near the pond. Most of them were green. It took roughly 90 seconds to kill each one. Again it was incredibly boring.</p><p>Why should it take me 2x longer than some other priests and 5-6 times longer than every other class in the game to kill green solo mobs and complete a quest that is in theory easy and out of level for my character.</p><p> </p><p>What is the justification for all this? What do we get in return? Why do some Templars insist on putting the requests to address this down? What is wrong with asking for our DPS to be balanced with Druids?</p>

[Sokolov]

Well, us Defilers got a pet that does nearly nothing (until you get a bunch of AAs in various trees, and then it sorta does something), dies all the time, and takes forever to cast.  I honestly do not notice ANY difference when the pet is around.Speaking of bad starting AAs, have you seen the Predator's version?  Bounty is a riot.  Every 5 minutes they can get extra silver!  Woo!  Talk about class definingly useful!

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><p>LU#21 has some changes for Yaulp, but the negative is still there, i can't understand 'why' there is a negative added to this ability.</p><p>+20% to double attack, +20%dps</p>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>LU#21 has some changes for Yaulp, but the negative is still there, i can't understand 'why' there is a negative added to this ability.</p><p>+20% to double attack, +20%dps</p><hr></blockquote>They took away the duration timer on it Cold which makes me a happy camper.  One battle at a time man <span>:smileyhappy:</span></span><div></div>

[Giallolas]

<div></div><p>We've kinda lost the point of this post.  I think we were discussing AA's, particularly Yaulp, and then using data from the other classes to help us define the utility or waste of this AA.  Druids were specifically pointed out as one that got "cream" in the AA tree on this and the Templar got "crap".</p><p>If a Fury or a Templar heals better in X situation isn't really what I thought we wanted to go down.  Parses, groups, raids, and statements from the Devs seem to indicate their intent is to make us all heal very close in these circumstances.  Situations may help us vary and perhaps do better, but they never wanted us to get to the point that only a Templar could be the only healer.</p><p>That said, is our AA crap?  Sure the defilers got the wolf.  I look at the dps increase we do with Yaulp and I think I would take a wolf.  I know I would take shapeshift druid thingie.  To compare us to rangers is kinda pointless.  Their ability may stink and for that I'm sorry, but they are no where in the same realm of playstyle as we are.  Like comparing a Ferrari (Ranger) with an RV.  We make the ride much more pleasant but they get us there tons faster.</p><p>I was hoping we could get some attention to this incredibly useless AA, pointing out the possible if not incredible possibilities of the other priests and their AA's to point out where we need some adjusting.</p>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>You really want a passive 2% chance to proc something (depending on weapon choice) instead of an active DPS increase?If you feel Druid's is uber and class defining and want your's to the same, the same courtesy should be extended, not just "Furies" or "Druids" or even "priests" but ALL classes.Personally, I don't think ANY of the starting AAs are particularly useful or class defining.  My point about Defilrers and Predators is to illustrate this. And you can have my Wolf... he's not up most of the time anyway.  I only realize when we have an AFK or LD and I happen to look and notice he died, prolly a long time ago <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (And, for the record:  A lot of Shaman AAs are melee based, some which would be useful are rendered useless as it is based on the wolf getting hit [who came up with that? I wanna slap him]- only the Wis line, as far as I am concerned, really has anything to do with healing, the last AA in the STR line is actually a berzerk like ability, what the heck is up with that?)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:44 AM</span></p>

[Nari]

<div></div>At this moment, Yaulp is not as useful as your pet is cute.  Maybe you can get some fixes for it by discussing it in the defiler's forum.

[Caethre]

<div></div><div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>The most important matter however, is test conditions. I am *always* talking about normal settings, normal groups, normal content, and I always specifically do NOT talk about high-end hardcore content. </p><hr></blockquote><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>As I have said previously, I have not yet encountered a situation where Fury Annaelisa could not heal quite sufficiently and as well as Templar Felishanna.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Therein lies a great deal of what I feel is your disbelief in our strengths, which lie beyond "normal" everyday, typical, run-of-the-mill situations where any preist would do.  Personally, I specifically go out of my way to find situations where my healing is fully utilized - where the amount of healing I can bring forth isn't overkill.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Sigh not again. When I read this, every time, it comes across as "do what I do or stop complaining and accept being weak, it's your own fault", and unsurprisingly we are going to continue doing neither of those.</p><p>It is not a matter of "disbelief in our strengths", it is a choice of wishing to play OUTSIDE the hardcore game, and in our settings, since LU13 Templar weakness is a matter of hard, recorded facts, backed up with data, combined with the observations and feelings of many many players.</p><p>Last time I looked, neither the box nor the character creation screen carried a warning:-</p><p><font color="#ffff00">"WARNING: TEMPLAR IS HARDCORE ONLY. YOU WILL BE SERIOUSLY GIMPED COMPARED TO OTHER PRIESTS IF YOU ARE A CASUAL PLAYER WITH THIS CLASS. ONLY CHOOSE IF YOU HAVE GROUPMATES AT ALL TIMES"</font></p><p>It is important for everyone to learn some respect for playstyles other than one's own. I'm happy for you that you love your Templar in your setting. Either support me and the huge number of us calling to make Templar fun for us in our settings too, or for heaven's sake, stop posting this nonsense about "play as I do", we should not all be forced to.</p><p>I will continue to address the situation for casual playstyle settings. (These are equally applicable even to hardcore raider Templars in those times when they actually want to get things done on their own and suddenly find that it just takes forever to do so). If you have nothing positive to contribute <u>about Templar play in such settings</u>, then say nothing, because all it will do every single time is start yet another big argument.</p><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div>What?!

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<snip><div></div>Therein lies a great deal of what I feel is your disbelief in our strengths, which lie beyond "normal" everyday, typical, run-of-the-mill situations where any preist would do.  Personally, I specifically go out of my way to find situations where my healing is fully utilized - where the amount of healing I can bring forth isn't overkill.<hr></blockquote><p>Sigh not again. When I read this, every time, it comes across as "do what I do or stop complaining and accept being weak, it's your own fault", and unsurprisingly we are going to continue doing neither of those.</p><snip><p>You <u>still</u> badly need to learn some respect for playstyles other than your own. I'm happy for you that you love your Templar in your setting. Either support me and the huge number of us calling to make Templar fun for us in our settings too, or for heaven's sake, stop posting this nonsense about "play as I do", we should not all be forced to.</p><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>QFE.I respect the way you play Ken (and others) and to be honest, it is the way I prefer to play also. My favourite sessions are in a group or raid "on the edge" and I actively pursue them every time I log on.However, for the life of me I cannot understand why you feel the need to dilute the message we are trying to get over to SOE by constantly posting in the way you have done above. You used to say you were correcting hyperbole, mistruths and false assumptions. Well I've been through this thread forward and backward and I cannot find any.I agree with you that our strengths lie in a full-on group. That is where I like to be at also. However, you just cannot avoid playing solo almost every session though and I cannot for the life of me see why what we are asking for is misguided or unbalancing.</span><div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">..."WARNING: TEMPLAR IS HARDCORE ONLY. YOU WILL BE SERIOUSLY GIMPED COMPARED TO OTHER PRIESTS IF YOU ARE A CASUAL PLAYER WITH THIS CLASS. ONLY CHOOSE IF YOU HAVE GROUPMATES AT ALL TIMES"</font>...</p><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps that warning should be somewhere.</p><p>It doesn't sound like Kendricke ever plays in pick up groups, which would explain a lot about his posts.  He is always saying things like, "your tank needs to know . .. ", "Your team needs to know and understand. .. ", etc. </p><p>I know nothing about rangers, don't want to, don't care to, i expect others feel that way about Templars.  Your a healer, so heal.  I look at a ranger and say ok dps, dps.  I see a chanter/coercer, i think mez.  only after suffering in a templar role, would i think templar can mez.  My pick up groups ,</p><p>I say "Add mezzed",</p><p>ranger says, "i didn't think we had a chanter." </p><p>I say, "I mezzed him." </p><p>Ranger says, "You can do that ?!?!?!?!"</p><p>And for people that have 'regular groups', or 'guild groups' that they always go out with, LU#13 was not a nuke for them.  It destroyed the casual gamer experience IMO, but did not affect them.  these people are generally higher in level, the raiders, those who have the mechanics down, because they can study them in semi-controlled environments.</p><p>I am 95%+ pick up groups, it is a different world.</p><p>in another place i point at casting times, and recast, that is the problem for pick up casual gamers.  Damage comes in too fast, for these timers.  fine for raiders, and people who know their group</p><p>the real problem, and why it won't be fixed, can't be fixed, will never ever be fixed, is that if they make the Templar so that a casual gamer can take them into a pick up group with a reasonable chance of survival, the raiders, ubers, and non-casual gamers will be demigods of healing and min/maxing. </p><p>And honestly wish i never even heard of mez or templar, not the healer i signed up for, i wanted to try healer, and for roleplaying didn't want a tree hugger or a guy running around in a loincloth, which is how i viewed the other 2 lines.</p><p>more whinging, more whining, more whining, becasue SOE took my class that was fine (for the casual gamer) and altered it 10 months after i started playing it.</p><p> </p>

[Nari]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>I say "Add mezzed",</p><p>ranger says, "i didn't think we had a chanter." </p><hr></blockquote><p>"Doesn't matter now, 12 seconds have gone by"</p><p>"Huh?"</p><p>"FFS, do some damage I am sick of healing you while you stand there and ask me about mez..."</p><p>LOL</p><p>EDIT: I also wanted to add: Why should Kendricke have to deal with pickup groups when he has a fairly active guild?  I'm lucky in the same way.  I don't know if he does the pickup group thing, I'm not sure why he would.  I don't/prefer not to.</p><p>Message Edited by 3devious on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p>

[Whitemane]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div><p>I'll take you up on this.</p><p>Give Gemmas a shout I should be on later tonight.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes in principle. I suspect from your post we have a timezone clash (it is 1.30am to me as I write this, I'm heading to sleep shortly), but that can be arranged around. The four level difference is a bit too much though, and mentoring can skew things somewhat, might have to discuss that (or wait until its gone). And I'm assuming you have the groupmates, we will have to discuss them too (my characters have certain, shall we say, alignment restrictions), but again, nothing that can't be worked round. All these things could be settled. We would however have to compare gear/spell qualities.</p><p>The most important matter however, is test conditions. I am *always* talking about normal settings, normal groups, normal content, and I always specifically do NOT talk about high-end hardcore content. The target environment would have to be something appropriate in line with the normal casual-playstyle hunting environment I am referring to, in zones we have both hunted in before at least a little. Similarly, the test conditions would have to be.. you guessed it, normal, not super-min/max'd. I leave others to look at the comparisons of classes in hardcore and min/max'd such settings, I'll concentrate on what average players do most of the time, and seek balance for that setup.</p><p> </p><p><font color="#ff3333">Sounds good to me as its the only fair way to do it.  Im not looking to scew the results in any way. Im interested in the results as all I really have to go by is gut feeling. We both know there is a huuuge difference between what a raid equiped healer and a causual can do simplying in pure power / hp pools (they'll have more sometimes alot more).</font></p><blockquote><hr>Whitemane wrote:<div></div><p>I can out heal a fury anyday. Heck I can out heal most healers I know =D. Its what I do. I only play the one character so I try and get the most out of it I can.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Confidence is a good thing (sincerely, that is not jest).</p><p><font color="#ff3300">=D hehe</font></p><p>However, I call your confidence totally mis-placed, sir. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As I have said previously, I have not yet encountered a situation where Fury Annaelisa could not heal quite sufficiently and as well as Templar Felishanna, I am a long-term experienced healer-player, and I do not expect you to be any different (assuming again same level, equivalent gear, the gaming environment I and thousands of other casual-playstyle players play in).</p><p><font color="#ff3300">And this is actually my point( the confidence part). Templars have no down side healing against any other healing class. Too many people seem to point at our DPS ( wich is sad ) and say see we are gimped vs Druids/ Shammies. It is this that makes me shake my head. Templars dont do dps we heal and that is all really so pointing to a furies dps as defining proof of a templars uselessness just seems wrong . No other class can match the healing output of all of our tools when put into play. GoB, Mark of .. / Involuntary ... / Fate .. Put out alot of healing. Yes a lot of them are proc based but in any given battel they will fire unless your killing things quick enough that you wouldnt need a healer anyways. In my opinion most arguments against a templar seem to boil down to play style. If you want to "blow things up" play a druid not a cleric. </font></p><p><font color="#ff3300"></font> </p><p>I don't care if it is a group of 2 or 6 or any number in between. In a full group, I would not expect a great deal of difference between us, as per SOE's intention. In a smaller group, your Templar will I am afraid suffer, as I can't see any spells my Templar has to match the 200+dps that Anna can kick out whilst <u>also</u> healing in small groups. I can match a Templar for healing in a small group anyday, AND also make them look weak in terms of DPS at the same time. That is my bravado, to yours. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>All that said, I'd still prefer a level 60 (or I guess 59-61, since one level makes small enough difference) to compare against. This is why, really,  could do with some help to actually do the test between my own two characters, who have almost exactly equivalent gear and spells and who are both level 60, with the added bonus of both being played by the same player. What is more, both of them would be deterimined to beat the other (I'm a roleplayer at the end of the day, even if I know my Templar is weak next to my Fury, she* would never accept such an idea!).</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ff3300">Well My leveling will be slow for the next little while as I have some out of town trips to make so hopefully we can make it happen sometime soon. I'm pretty curious =D</font></p><font color="#ff3300"></font></blockquote><blockquote><font color="#ff3300">Gemma</font><p></p></blockquote>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>the real problem, and why it won't be fixed, can't be fixed, will never ever be fixed, is that if they make the Templar so that a casual gamer can take them into a pick up group with a reasonable chance of survival, the raiders, ubers, and non-casual gamers will be demigods of healing and min/maxing.</p><hr></blockquote><p>It could be fixed. Either (a) give all six priest classes similar DPS, where the "top" priest had only 20% or 30% more DPS than the "bottom" (not 300%+) .... or (b) allow those priests who have significantly lower DPS to also have significantly better healing capability in all settings.</p><p>SOE will never do (b), they have said so. So, that's why so many of us call for (a).</p><p> </p>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>the real problem, and why it won't be fixed, can't be fixed, will never ever be fixed, is that if they make the Templar so that a casual gamer can take them into a pick up group with a reasonable chance of survival, the raiders, ubers, and non-casual gamers will be demigods of healing and min/maxing.</p><hr></blockquote><p>It could be fixed. Either (a) give all six priest classes similar DPS, where the "top" priest had only 20% or 30% more DPS than the "bottom" (not 300%+) .... or (b) allow those priests who have significantly lower DPS to also have significantly better healing capability in all settings.</p><p>SOE will never do (b), they have said so. So, that's why so many of us call for (a).</p><hr></blockquote><p>Sadly, (a) doesn't help me.</p><p>Tanks die while my recast timers are clicking away.</p><p>Good luck getting it fixed, think i should go home and delete my templar now before i chicken out, hard to throw away months of 'work' on something.</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><p>I solo...a lot.  I spent 4 of my 5 hours online last night soloing with Kendricke in the Tangle.  I was throwing Divine Castigations around with a Glowing Wooden Crook, and Yaulping when I could (getting melee crits for 149 every other hit, while pulling down 35% haste was actually fun).  I'm looking forward to the new Yaulp even more after the past week.  I think the discussion where we all came together and posted suggestions worked, since some of those changes have made it to test.  I think we've been heard and on that, I think we should all be happier.</p><p>However, when someone tells me that they can't find situations where we shine brighter than other priests after admitting they never try to find those situations where we shine?  I'm going to call that out. </p><p>Templars have strengths.  They also have weaknesses.  What I can't comprehend are those Templars who can only see the weaknesses when they aren't even attempting to find the situations where our strengths matter.  Why keep playing the class then?  It's like picking up an enchanter or warrior for soloing, when their real strength lies in group settings.  Templars have never - not once - been a strong soloing class.  Furies have always, always, always, always been much better at soloing than Templars.  Always.  That wasn't changed by Live Update 13, 15, or any other Update.  The situation was created prior to release, and has remained so since. </p><p>Templars wanted more soloing capability, and we got it with the Achievements and our level 65 Marquee spell.  Templars still complain though because it's still not as powerful as Furies?!  What?!  When do the complaints stop? </p><p>We do heal better than Furies - but only in situations where healing actually matters.  General, everyday, run-of-the-mill, "normal" content does not require any significant healing.  Therefore, all healers are adequate.  So, if your playstyle never goes beyond that type of content, why would you want a healer that's geared toward harder healing requirements?</p><p>It's like buying a town carriage to go off-roading across the country.  It's like picking up a two handed axe to carve a game hen.  It's overkill for what you want.  You don't need a 10 pound sledge to drive home a nail.  You don't require the level of healing that a Templar can bring when you're just hitting regular, non-challenging content.  Any healer will do. </p><p>Not every class is built for every playstyle.  I don't find that flawed design at all.  I find it to be excellent design.  I don't want a single healing class with six flavors.  I want six healers that appeal to different types of players.  That's what I feel we have right now.  You may disagree.  That's your right to do so.  Just disagree with what I'm saying and not with who I am.  That's where I draw the line here.</p><p> </p>

[Asp728]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><p>We've kinda lost the point of this post.  I think we were discussing AA's, particularly Yaulp, and then using data from the other classes to help us define the utility or waste of this AA.  Druids were specifically pointed out as one that got "cream" in the AA tree on this and the Templar got "crap".</p><p><strong> I know I would take shapeshift druid thingie.</strong> </p><hr></blockquote><p>You would take an AA that gives a 2% chance at a crit over a self buff that adds over 100 STA and AGI?  Because our self buff and the AA shapeshift don't stack.  And I doubt very seriously ANY fury is going to take that miniscule chance at a crit over our own buff that adds STA and AGI.</p><p>You can have it, because it's useless.</p><p> </p><blockquote> </blockquote>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>EDIT: I also wanted to add: Why should Kendricke have to deal with pickup groups when he has a fairly active guild?  I'm lucky in the same way.  I don't know if he does the pickup group thing, I'm not sure why he would.  I don't/prefer not to.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I obviously prefer guild groups.  However, that said, I'm probably in pick-up groups a fair amount of the time.  Even then, the term "pick up" is used fairly loosely.  I'm typically in groups dominated by friends I've made over the past year and a half, who belong to guilds my guild is friendly with, or who I've met in my 62 levels.  I still group up with friends I remember seeing at Darkpaw camps back in 2004. </p><p>Even then, I don't cut my groups that much slack.  If I start to feel as though the group is below a certain level or standard, I'll either speak up, try to help out, or leave.  I'm fairly strict in how I spend my time in Norrath.  I frankly don't have a lot of time to waste with those who either do not know or aren't willing to learn.</p><p> </p>

[Caethre]

<div></div>OOC.<blockquote><hr>Asp728 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><p><strong> I know I would take shapeshift druid thingie.</strong> </p><hr></blockquote><p>You would take an AA that gives a 2% chance at a crit over a self buff that adds over 100 STA and AGI?  Because our self buff and the AA shapeshift don't stack.  And I doubt very seriously ANY fury is going to take that miniscule chance at a crit over our own buff that adds STA and AGI.</p><p>You can have it, because it's useless.</p><hr></blockquote><p>If LU21 goes live as it is apparently described as being on Test at the moment, Asp is correct, at that point, a wise Fury would not use Shapeshift anymore, for the reasons he stated. That proposed change makes the skill worthless for Furies.</p><p> </p>

[Nari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>Not every class is built for every playstyle.  I don't find that flawed design at all.  I find it to be excellent design.  I don't want a single healing class with six flavors.  I want six healers that appeal to different types of players.  That's what I feel we have right now.  You may disagree.  That's your right to do so.  Just disagree with what I'm saying and not with who I am.  That's where I draw the line here.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Heck, you could be my mom saying that, but I would still have to ask you where the devs said this was their vision.  If these healers were meant for different playstyles, it might have been better for Sony to document that instead of describing classes with flavor text.

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>...However, when someone tells me that they can't find situations where we shine brighter than other priests after admitting they never try to find those situations where we shine?  I'm going to call that out. </p><p>Templars have strengths. ...</p><hr></blockquote><p>To get to that point you have to get beyond the first step.</p><p>I have been and will say I can't get to step G, because I can't get past steps A thru F.</p><p>I could buy a Stratovarius or some no name junior high violin, both can be played by any beginner and sound like a violin.  Sure a Master could make the Stratovarius sound much much better.  but that doesn't prevent the beginner from playing, you are telling pepole to put the violin down because they aren't a Master.  all Masters, started as beginners no matter how short that time was for.</p><p>And yes, i have yet to find one single situation in any setting where my templar of equal level is better than my fury, and generally find him to be worse (to much worse) in 'every' situation.</p><p>And i haven't found a strength yet.</p><p>I have asked repeatedly for them.  mez is not a strength, it requires a complete group knowledge, and solo play does  not count against the pick up group argument, because well the entire party (you) still knows how a templar works.</p><p>go play in pick up groups with people you don't know, noobs, the people u might not even talk to right now.</p><p>i haven't experienced the new yaulp yet, but it does still carry a negative and most other starter AP do not.</p><p>someone seriuosly hates Templars.</p><p> </p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>Not every class is built for every playstyle.  I don't find that flawed design at all.  I find it to be excellent design.  I don't want a single healing class with six flavors.  I want six healers that appeal to different types of players.  That's what I feel we have right now.  You may disagree.  That's your right to do so.  Just disagree with what I'm saying and not with who I am.  That's where I draw the line here.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Heck, you could be my mom saying that, but I would still have to ask you where the devs said this was their vision.  If these healers were meant for different playstyles, it might have been better for Sony to document that instead of describing classes with flavor text.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't have a quote where developers have stated this.  That's what I did not state this as SOE's vision.  I stated it as what I personally feel we have right now. </p><p>I can pull quotes where developers state that the game is balanced around grouping and that not all classes are intended to solo with the same efficiency, though.</p><p> </p>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>Even then, I don't cut my groups that much slack.  If I start to feel as though the group is below a certain level or standard, I'll either speak up, try to help out, or leave.  I'm fairly strict in how I spend my time in Norrath.  I frankly don't have a lot of time to waste with those who either do not know or aren't willing to learn.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Defining difference between us.</p><p>I understand a lot more now.</p>

[Nari]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>Even then, I don't cut my groups that much slack.  If I start to feel as though the group is below a certain level or standard, I'll either speak up, try to help out, or leave.  I'm fairly strict in how I spend my time in Norrath.  I frankly don't have a lot of time to waste with those who either do not know or aren't willing to learn.</p><hr></blockquote>Haha! I usually don't boot them, I just make sure never to group with person X again.

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div>Haha! I usually don't boot them, I just make sure never to group with person X again.<hr></blockquote><p>Look for my name under X, I am sure I am on those lists.</p><p><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><p>I have asked repeatedly for them.  mez is not a strength, <strong>it requires a complete group knowledge...</strong></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hotkey 1, Hotbar 7: </p><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>"/g OOC: I will be using my Sign of Infirmity spell.  This "infirms" targets to where they cannot attack, yet still can move.""/g I will be announcing this using the "/mine" emote.  The infirm will be used to lock down targets to help us control situations with adds.""/g ANY direct attack on an infirmed target will break the infirm, allowing the target to begin attacking.  Assist the Main Tank at all times.""/g I repeat, always assist the Main Tank to prevent breaking my infirms."</p></blockquote>Hotkey 7, Hotbar 3:<blockquote dir="ltr"><p>"/mine""/g I have infirmed %T for the next 12 seconds.  Continue to assist the Main Tank."</p><p> </p></blockquote>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><p>... </p></blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>I have grouped with people, who go, "There is group chat?"</p><p>thanks for the info.</p><p>Now if <strong>I</strong> could just understand what infirm does.</p><p>most of my fights are group against ^^^, adds are rare, and not what cause my templar to wipe.</p><p>ie. group against ^^^ with templar = wipe, same group against same ^^^ with Fury = loot</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:11 PM</span></p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>ie. group against ^^^ with templar = wipe, same group against same ^^^ with Fury = loot</p><hr></blockquote><p>:smileyindifferent:  I would say that your above statement may be true in your experience, but it certainly not is in mine. </p><p>I was the solo healer AND puller for a Clefts of Rujark group through most of my middle 50's where I would chain pull using Sign of Infirmity, then drop Admonishment and Involuntary Healer on the target, then rush off to grab more orcs.  All targets were white and yellow ^^^ single targets.  At the time, my gear was nothing to speak of, and the majority of my spells were Adept I quality.  Even now, my gear is far from "uber".</p><p>We spent HOURS doing this on many separate nights using every possible "good" fighter class as a tank, and at least twice we used Swashbucklers as our tank. </p><p>Of course, at level 50 through 52, I spent most of my time in groups in Sinking Sands hunting Desert Tarantulas near the Terrorantula spawn point.  Those were all white and yellow ^^^ single targets, too.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>ie. group against ^^^ with templar = wipe, same group against same ^^^ with Fury = loot</p><hr></blockquote><p>:smileyindifferent:  I would say that your above statement may be true in your experience, but it certainly not is in mine. </p><p>...</p><hr></blockquote><p>And I do not have the tools/means to explain to you why.</p><p><img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div>At this moment, Yaulp is not as useful as your pet is cute.  Maybe you can get some fixes for it by discussing it in the defiler's forum.<hr></blockquote>None of the AAs are particularly good with a few exceptions.  I have no complaints really.  They are all mostly interesting.  If Templar ones were fixed to be incredibly useful, then I would start muttering why no one else gets useful AAs, until then, when someone says a certain AA sucks, I am going to continue to point out how they all pretty much suck.</span><div></div>

[Giallolas]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div>At this moment, Yaulp is not as useful as your pet is cute.  Maybe you can get some fixes for it by discussing it in the defiler's forum.<hr></blockquote>None of the AAs are particularly good with a few exceptions.  I have no complaints really.  They are all mostly interesting.  If Templar ones were fixed to be incredibly useful, then I would start muttering why no one else gets useful AAs, until then, when someone says a certain AA sucks, I am going to continue to point out how they all pretty much suck.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Hehe, I think that was the subtle...why bring up the Defiler concerns in Templar Forums.  Very subtle 3devious.

[Nari]

<div>Ours has been adjusted on Test.  It might not suck, so your statement could be false, either way, you would probably help your class better than you are helping templars.</div>

[Nari]

<div>I am here for your amusement, Giallolas.  Well, and for everyone else who wants to laugh at me. *smacks hubby* not yours...</div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Giallolas wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<div></div>At this moment, Yaulp is not as useful as your pet is cute.  Maybe you can get some fixes for it by discussing it in the defiler's forum.<hr></blockquote>None of the AAs are particularly good with a few exceptions.  I have no complaints really.  They are all mostly interesting.  If Templar ones were fixed to be incredibly useful, then I would start muttering why no one else gets useful AAs, until then, when someone says a certain AA sucks, I am going to continue to point out how they all pretty much suck.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Hehe, I think that was the subtle...why bring up the Defiler concerns in Templar Forums.  Very subtle 3devious.<hr></blockquote></span>Hehe, well, I do understand the sentiment, but I only mention Defiler abilites because I am most familiar with them, not because I am really concerned.  In this particular case my point is that when one looks at the AAs as a broad spectrum, every class has a mix of useless and decent ones, and maybe a couple of excellent ones.  As far as I can tell, no class has any advantage in this department.  I believe the logic that the Druid AA is preceived to be better than the Templar AA means that the Templar AA should be improved is weak, especially when you consider the counterparts of the same AA in every class are all generally equally useless.[It is also of interest that Templars being the Cleric that is asking for more DPS is being far more critical of a Cleric DPS increasing AA than Inquisitors are.]<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:12 PM</span></p>

[GoodCitizenDan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anduri wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>GoodCitizenDan wrote:<div> </div><div>In return for slightly less healing power in the upper end, they can solo and out DPS us by a wide margin.  If I wanted to DPS I would have made a warlock, and if I wanted to solo I would have made a conjurer.  I chose templar for healing power, and thats what we have.</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>I am really getting fed up with reading this.</p><p>It's not that I don't think your position is valid. If you want a solid healer, then Templar delivers (as does Mystic, Defiler, Inquisitor, Fury and Warden). I am glad you are happy with it.</p><p>However, why do you have a problem with others asking for balanced DPS. You might not want to solo but a lot of people do.</p><p>I for one <strong>do not</strong> want to solo. Like you say, I made a Templar to group with. However, you cannot deny that the game now gives a lot of occasions where soloing is unavoidable. For example, last night:</p><p>a) I wanted to increase my status as I have half an eye on the Baron title. 2 million status points to buy it is a lot. However, some friends in my guild noted that they were able to knock off about 25,000 points for every writ run they do and they were completing them every 15 - 20 mins.</p><p>So I pick up a few writs and start. If you have a level 63 Templar, I should not need to explain that after 15 mins I was not even halfway through them. It was also ridiculously boring.</p><p>By your logic, I am not allowed to have a Baron title because I am a Templar, or if I get one, it should take me two or three times longer than certain other priests and five or six times longer than certain other classes.</p><p>What exactly do I get in compensation for this as a Templar?</p><p> </p><p>b) After the writ debacle I decided that I needed a group and fast if I was going to do anything meaningful that evening. It took me 20 minutes to get one.</p><p>Why am I not allowed to do anything constructive in those 20 mins, at a similar pace to other classes?</p><p>What exactly do I get in compensation for this as a Templar? Please do not say I get to group more easily. In those 20 mins there was a group looking for DPS classes and another looking for a healer. Not a Templar though, they already had one.</p><p>c) Once the group disbanded, it was almost time for me to log off. I decided to knock off some quick quests in TT. One was for killing flies near the pond. Most of them were green. It took roughly 90 seconds to kill each one. Again it was incredibly boring.</p><p>Why should it take me 2x longer than some other priests and 5-6 times longer than every other class in the game to kill green solo mobs and complete a quest that is in theory easy and out of level for my character.</p><p> </p><p>What is the justification for all this? What do we get in return? Why do some Templars insist on putting the requests to address this down? What is wrong with asking for our DPS to be balanced with Druids?</p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't like the idea of "Balancing" every class.  What do you expect to get by complaining that furies have so much more DPS than us?  They wont give us more DPS by any wide margin.  Instead, they'll simply nerf furies.  I don't want that.   If they have it easier than us in some areas, thats fine, but I would never trade what we have for what they have.</p><p>Alot of people on this board have no class pride anymore.  If you envy the furies so much, make one....</p>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>if shaman's pet doing more than 20 dps, it's better than templar's. indeed.</p><p>back to the Yaulp discussion....</p><p>it rocks... when we get a super lasergun then Templar will rock as hell.</p><p> </p>

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>GoodCitizenDan wrote:<div></div><p>I don't like the idea of "Balancing" every class.  What do you expect to get by complaining that furies have so much more DPS than us?  They wont give us more DPS by any wide margin.  Instead, they'll simply nerf furies.  I don't want that.   If they have it easier than us in some areas, thats fine, but I would never trade what we have for what they have.</p><p>Alot of people on this board have no class pride anymore.  If you envy the furies so much, make one....</p><hr></blockquote>Firstly, I don't want Furies nerfed - I never said that and would never want that. In fact, I never even singled out Furies.What I did say is that when it comes to soloing we are unfairly penalised. That would be fine if it was avoidable <u>but it is not</u>. From Prismatic 2.0, Manastone 2.0, writs, faction quests, even running from A to B our game is played at a snails pace compared to everyone else.Again, I ask is this fair - or more importantly - is this FUN. You never actually answered that or any of the other questions. You merely suggested I have no pride in my class, as if questioning our abilities is somehow traitorous. That does not answer the questions I posed.</span><div></div>

[Sheybe]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GoodCitizenDan wrote:<div></div><blockquote>I don't like the idea of "Balancing" every class.  What do you expect to get by complaining that furies have so much more DPS than us?  They wont give us more DPS by any wide margin.  Instead, they'll simply nerf furies.  I don't want that.   If they have it easier than us in some areas, thats fine, but I would never trade what we have for what they have.</blockquote><p>Alot of people on this board have no class pride anymore.  If you envy the furies so much, make one....</p><hr></blockquote><p>GoodCitizen actually has an excellent point.</p><p>While not every post is about Furies, and not everyone brings it back around to Furies, I think I read more about Furies on this board then I would on the Fury board. And if Sony does at last agree that we are unbalanced or unequal in our DPS abilities chances are that the results will be Furies will be toned down rather then Templars are given more.</p><p>At no point is Good saying that this is what Templars want, however there is a good chance that it will happen. It is easier to tone down the DPS of a group and then if needed give some of it back then to signifigantly up the DPS of another group and possibly have a detrimental effect to the game.</p>