Why don't templars get combat arts?

[SpineDoc]

<DIV>My temp is level 49 now and is still a blast to play.  But I also have a 49 necromancer and love to solo him.  Lately I have been getting frustrated with the lack of soloing ability for my templar, especially during the middle of the day when no one else is on and it is very hard to get a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know many on here feel that templars need more dps.  I realize the argument many counter this with, that templars are more of a defensive healer.  Wouldn't a defensive healer heal better?  Wouldn't a defensive healer spend more of his training time during his life in training in defensive healing?  Well, anyhow that is a different subject.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But on the subject of dps, if all healers are to heal equally, then they should all dps equally as well.  In relation to this I think it makes perfect sense for templars to get some combat arts.  The combat arts would not be as powerful as fighters classes, they would simply be in line with other healers dps.  I mean is there really a difference if I press a spell button and cause dps, or if I press my attack button and cause dps?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars are a plate wearing class, but seriously, I don't see much of a difference when my templar gets beat on and when my necromancer gets beat on.  The original Templars were soldiers who fought in the crusades, why can't we be like "templars"?  Templars have pretty decent weapons, but they usually just sit at our sides when grouping.  Sure I whip out my mace sometimes in groups, line myself up behind mobs and make believe like it makes a difference.  But seriously, does anyone feel like their melee makes a difference?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please keep in mind I am NOT advocating templars to be anywhere near a tank in any situation.  All I am saying is that if healers heal equally, they should dps equally as well (otherwise why play a templar?).  If they ever consider adding dps to templars I think they should consider adding some combat arts which are NOT overpowered, but rather are in line damage wise to other healers dps.  This would give the templar some flavor and feel of the soldier crusader they are patterned after in legend and fact.</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>priests supposed not to have combat arts, and hard to have it added... but i agree that we need dps boost, big 1. thanks for suggestion for real improvement for what we lack <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Its not hard to have it added.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea of a Cleric is a battlepriest, wearing heavy armour getting into the thick of it with good melee ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanguard is going for a better Cleric route imo.</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>its hard to revamp cos of they give a fixed numbers of spells every class.</P> <P>/ooc, i am still waiting for vanguard beta <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its not hard to have it added.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea of a Cleric is a battlepriest, wearing heavy armour getting into the thick of it with good melee ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanguard is going for a better Cleric route imo.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ummm yeah. That would be called a PALADIN.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>OlaeviaTraisharan wrote: <blockquote> <hr> AzraelAzgard wrote: <div>Its not hard to have it added.</div> <div> </div> <div>The idea of a Cleric is a battlepriest, wearing heavy armour getting into the thick of it with good melee ability.</div> <div> </div> <div>Vanguard is going for a better Cleric route imo.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Ummm yeah. That would be called a PALADIN. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Of course you are ignoring the fact that paldins are fighters with heals. Templars could just as easily be healers with combat arts. And since we could have just as many CA's as paladins have heals, we would still be templars. Also this would be the defining ability for <i>templars</i>, one that would mark us different from all the other healers that heal just as well as we do. But keep on trolling.</span><div></div>

[SpineDoc]

<P>No it would not be a paladin if a templar had some low damage combat arts for a moderate dps boost and some flavor.  A paladin is a tank, a fighting class with some spells.  What I am advocating is a priest class with some moderate combat arts to raise dps and add flavor.  I'm just trying to fit the templar in with its roots in folklore and the crusades.  In reality the paladin should have been called a templar, because they fit that role better in history.  But I still wonder why we templars run around in plate armor and carry heavy maces and hammers, yet have no combat arts or melee prowess?!!!?  SOE should have designed us from the beginning to carry only religious symbols and wear cassocks, that would be more in line with our current function, ie: stand far back and cast heals and nothing else.</P> <P>But there is no non technical reason templars cannot get a combat art or 2 to increase their lagging dps.  I understand there may be technical programming reasons, but from a gameplay perspective I don't see it unbalancing anything at all.  I like playing tank classes, but I really really love playing my healer.  It would be extremely satisfying to me to be able to play my healer, but be able to do some decent dps (once again in line with other healer dps) while meleeing.</P> <P>Once again I would like to reiterate that I am quite happy with my Templar's healing ability and overall I am happy with him other than the dps issue.  It would be a lot of fun and add a lot of flavor to Templar's, and at the same time solve the dps inadequacy if we had combat arts of moderate damage which were in line with other healers dps.</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its not hard to have it added.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea of a Cleric is a battlepriest, wearing heavy armour getting into the thick of it with good melee ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanguard is going for a better Cleric route imo.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ummm yeah. That would be called a PALADIN. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Go look up what a Cleric actually is.</P> <P>Give your un-informed opinion a rest, its making you look silly.</P>

[zorbdan]

<P>I suggested templars have combat arts awhile back and recieved this exact same paladin BS. </P> <P>/sigh</P> <DIV>Why play a templar when you can be a paladin ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why play a templar when you can be a fury ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>etc ... the real question is ..why play a templar ...... period!11one!period!?</DIV>

[Terabethia]

<P><FONT color=#33ccff>To be honest, at this point I don't care if they give us better DPS through spells or combat arts, I just want them to give us SOMETHING. I mean, really... I need something useful to do besides scratch my butt between the ridiculously long recast timers on heals (besides debuffing, which is quick and only done once, anyway). </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Either that, or make us better healers, but that is another topic/thread</FONT> :smileytongue:</P>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>ROFL! You guys are so cute sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>You want me to look up the definition of a cleric under which roleplaying system? Dungeons and Dragons? Rifts? Warhammer?</P> <P>Take your pick.</P> <P>I drew my cute-but-funny post from the original poster's request for combat arts, plus healing, plus additional tankage. I'm sorry, but to me that sounds like the original poster is asking for a Paladin. Seems like a silly request IMHO. </P> <P>My post wasn't meant to "troll" or "emotionally maim" anyone's "gameplay stability", but think that if you want Tim. I mean, I keep forgetting people aren't allowed to have an opinion on these forums, seeing as how anyone who differs from anyone else gets slammed into the ground for it.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SpineDoc wrote:<BR> <P>No it would not be a paladin if a templar had some low damage combat arts for a moderate dps boost and some flavor.  A paladin is a tank, a fighting class with some spells.  What I am advocating is a priest class with some moderate combat arts to raise dps and add flavor. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you mean more like a Dark Age of Camelot Friar, yes?</P> <P>If you're not knowledgable of DAOC, the Friar class is a secondary healer that specializes in staves and fights using combat attacks (what we would call combat arts here). They don't heal well enough to be primary healers, but you can at least get the jist of what I'm saying from their abilities. They also buff, but mostly themselves to improve their defensive abilities.<BR></P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>OlaeviaTraisharan wrote: <div> <blockquote><p>My post wasn't meant to "troll" or "emotionally maim" anyone's "gameplay stability", but think that if you want Tim. I mean, I keep forgetting people aren't allowed to have an opinion on these forums, seeing as how anyone who differs from anyone else gets slammed into the ground for it.</p></blockquote> </div><hr></blockquote>Well, your statement was not an opinion, it was an attemp appeal to authority and thus silence those who think different. So it is in fact you who think that people should not have opinions. After all, it was you who said "read the definition", that is not an opinion <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Either that, or make us better healers, but that is another topic/thread</FONT> :smileytongue:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What would that do?  Honestly, are you finding situations where you can't heal right now? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sealron]

<DIV>i think that is a wonderful idea. dont confuse a little added melee damage with tankage, they are not the same thing. </DIV>

[Sunlei]

<DIV>"Templars are a plate wearing class, but seriously, I don't see much of a difference when my templar gets beat on and when my necromancer gets beat on."  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As my templars strength goes up, so does my attack rating. This means my melee damage hits for max much more times. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the same principle as strength increasing 'attack' so does reducing the strength of the mobs reduce their attack and they hit me for max damage much less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love my Templars strength debuffs, it makes mobs weakened & they hit me for much less damage. If they are stunned or pacifiy they don't hit me at all for a time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think if you debuffed mobs strength with your Templar(lower their attack) you could notice the difference between a Templar getting hit and a necromancer? Not sure if necromancers get strength debuffs aswell? do they? hehe, not sure as I don't play the evil ones <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>combat arts for templars? just when would we have the time to add more button clickings?...gosh the nukes like 2-3 seconds with very fast recast time..I think its like 12 HOs a min, mixed with debuffs and not many heals needed as many 'heals' are pre-fight castable or proc from hits. Kindoff  spastic button clickings like that already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno, just surprised that a Templar is asking for combat arts...isn't that a fighters realm?</DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunlei wrote:<BR> <DIV>I love my Templars strength debuffs, it makes mobs weakened & they hit me for much less damage. If they are stunned or pacifiy they don't hit me at all for a time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What STR debuff are you referring to? The only one I can think of was the Pre Combat Changes Sign line (currently our pacify). Forgive me if Im sleep deprived and forgetting one, but I honestly cant think of any that we have.</DIV>

[Nari]

Yup.  Well, we still have that low level weakness and you can bet your *@#$ that I use that too.  I get more use out of it than our "crowd control" spells. I know few people miss those spells, but turning us into mezzers is one of the changes I am most annoyed by. >.< <div></div>

[Whizbang]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunlei wrote:<BR> <DIV>I love my Templars strength debuffs, it makes mobs weakened & they hit me for much less damage. If they are stunned or pacifiy they don't hit me at all for a time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What STR debuff are you referring to? The only one I can think of was the Pre Combat Changes Sign line (currently our pacify). Forgive me if Im sleep deprived and forgetting one, but I honestly cant think of any that we have.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe it is the Weakness spell that he is referring to.  I believe there is another one that replaces it....but i could be wrong.  You usually have to choose if you want to use Weakness or the 12 sec mez spell since they are on the same recast timer.  I opt for the mez so that i can cast out my 4 debuffs before going at it like a rabid woodchuck with no teeth.

[Nari]

Yeah, I was seriously bummed that they were on the same timer.  I understand that they are the same line, but I like my little weakness spell.  There is no longer an upgrade for it.  Sign of Weakness has just become more of that pacify stuff.  My partner and I usually gang up on heroic hard hitting mobs.  Since, that is our preferred way to hunt, I'd rather have it the way it was.  When we do get plagued by lots of mobs, we just kill them (I prefer that solution to pacifying them anyday.) <div></div>

[Terabethia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Either that, or make us better healers, but that is another topic/thread</FONT> :smileytongue:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What would that do?  Honestly, are you finding situations where you can't heal right now? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#33ccff>I heal in groups just fine. In raids, I heal okay enough. However, there are other classes that heal more efficently than Templars, and if they also get to do more DPS, then there is no balance there.  So like I said, either make us balanced with DPS, or give us better healing (several ways, they could reduce the timers to something reasonable, or make is so that I can cast 2 heals back to back [Amerlioration and the splitpaw heal like I used to be able to do]) So seeing as how this thread is about balance, and that is an afterthough statement anyway... just a suggestion.</FONT>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Either that, or make us better healers, but that is another topic/thread</FONT> :smileytongue:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What would that do?  Honestly, are you finding situations where you can't heal right now? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#33ccff>I heal in groups just fine. In raids, I heal okay enough. However, there are other classes that heal more efficently than Templars, and if they also get to do more DPS, then there is no balance there.  So like I said, either make us balanced with DPS, or give us better healing (several ways, they could reduce the timers to something reasonable, or make is so that I can cast 2 heals back to back [Amerlioration and the splitpaw heal like I used to be able to do]) So seeing as how this thread is about balance, and that is an afterthough statement anyway... just a suggestion.</FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My point is that unless you have problems healing, adding additional healing over our already considerable healing ability isn't going to affect your gameplay much, is it?  What would it do?  If you're not having problems healing, then what would boosting your healing actually accomplish?  We already have more ways to heal in more situations than any other class.  </P> <P>Now, I'm all for more melee or damage.  I really am.  I mean, who doesn't want more?  More, more, more, more.  Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie.  </P> <P>However, adding healing abilities in a situation where you admit you are already healing just fine isn't going to miraculously make you a better healer.  It just means that situations you're already healing in will become even easier - which isn't exactly necessary since you're not really having problems with healing.  </P> <P> </P>

[kenji]

<P>must there a problem? ok, i got outhealed by an offense style priest when they focus on healing (inquisitor -100% /fury -mostly) and out dmg when they focus on dps (inquisitor/fury -both 100%), sure they never fully focus on healing (they both have the debuff role in raid too), but being better than the most heal class (there is a list somewhere saying templar heal spell most...) is really SUCKS.</P> <P>is this issue good enough for u?</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Terabethia wrote: <div></div> <p><font color="#33ccff">Either that, or make us better healers, but that is another topic/thread</font> :smileytongue:</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>What would that do?  Honestly, are you finding situations where you can't heal right now? </div> <hr></blockquote>Wow Kend, you are getting closer. Now, are any priests finding these situations? Exactly, they are not. Then how can anyone justify different soloing speed? Tell me that Kend, what Is exactly the justification for that? Yeah yeah, I know, 'SoE has stated'...</span><div></div>

[Beerserker]

<DIV>If SoE actually give us a melee boast that would be great because our DPS sucks lol. Then the name "Templar" would really match what we do in eq2 lol. </DIV>

[lmhotep]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>must there a problem? ok, i got outhealed by an offense style priest when they focus on healing (inquisitor -100% /fury -mostly) and out dmg when they focus on dps (inquisitor/fury -both 100%), sure they never fully focus on healing (they both have the debuff role in raid too), but being better than the most heal class (there is a list somewhere saying templar heal spell most...) is really SUCKS.</P> <P>is this issue good enough for u?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL what a funny remark you  make there "i am outhealed by XXX class boohoohoo"</P> <P>If that is an issue to you its either time to go and start another class as you are not fit to fulfill the role of a templar or you start reading what your spells can do and use them accordingly.</P> <P>I can tell you that if i start chainhealing anyone in my group i wil run out of power so fast it isnt even funny anymore becuse thats what a fury is about : quick emergancy heals.</P> <P>A fury class isnt build on being the solo healer in any group wich is fighting higher level content as we just drop power so fast it would be the same as flushing your toilet.</P> <P>Now grouped up with a templar makes it alot more fun as we can have the templar as the MAINHEALER the job you guys like that much and i just do the debuffing and some damage wherever i can do.</P> <P>Healing then is just in emergancy`s wich i can do perfectly cuse im the so called "fast healer".</P> <P> </P> <P>Going a bit offtopic: templar solo healing poets is sweet, now try the same as a fury and you wil end up chainhealing every spell you have and you only manage to finish poets cuse you have a paladin tanking and he can heal himself.</P>

[Bugsy--]

I thought that this was another satire thread.

[SpineDoc]

<P>"I drew my cute-but-funny post from the original poster's request for combat arts, plus healing, plus additional tankage. I'm sorry, but to me that sounds like the original poster is asking for a Paladin. Seems like a silly request IMHO. </P> <P>My post wasn't meant to "troll" or "emotionally maim" anyone's "gameplay stability", but think that if you want Tim. I mean, I keep forgetting people aren't allowed to have an opinion on these forums, seeing as how anyone who differs from anyone else gets slammed into the ground for it."</P> <P> </P> <P>Seriously though, first you call my request "silly", then you go on to say that people "aren't allowed to have an opinion on these forums"  Seems a bit contradictory to me.  I am allowed my own opinion regardless of yours.</P> <P>Additionally I do NOT see the argument that I am asking for a paladin.  I am NOT asking for a paladin.  I am NOT asking for a tank.  I am NOT asking for a secondary healer.  I am NOT asking for a friar (yes I played DAOC).  I am NOT asking for primary combat arts.  What part of that do you NOT understand?  A templar with small combat arts is a far far cry from a paladin.  I want to continue to be the primary healer of my group, I do NOT want to be a tank.</P> <P>All I am asking for is combat arts which do damage which is in the same range as other healers dps, can you understand that?  Do I need to repeat that?  Wait let me rephrase it for you:  Me no want tank, me wants dps equal to da other healers, me think combat art can enhance (oops big word) templars flavor and excitement in game.  Hmm, not sure if that does the trick.</P> <P>In relation to healing I think templars are just fine.  I can heal my group no problem no matter the situation and I think in some situations I can heal better then any other healer, but thats just my opinion.  This would be ideal if all other things were equal, ie: utility, healing and dps, but as is obvious they are not.  I sacrificed my utility, dps and soloability to be the best healer, since that is not the case anymore I would like my utility, soloability and dps back please.</P> <P>So enough of the paladin argument, it holds absolutely no water.  I originally posted my suggestion as a polite and constructive suggestion that involved my personal preference and opinion, isn't that what these boards are about?  If you view my suggestion as "silly" then please stay out of my post, or at least offer some constructive feedback instead of spouting about paladins, which are a completely different archetype.</P> <P>I see so much flaming on a daily basis that I resist commenting on other topics, but now I see why people get angry.  You post something constructive and expect mature points of view, but all you get is flamed.</P>

[SpineDoc]

<DIV>Oh and by the way I NEVER asked for "additional tankage", I do NOT want to be a tank, I do not want to pull mobs or tank them at all.  My dps with combat arts would be EQUAL to other healers dps.</DIV>

[Nari]

Does this mean you want to be a tank? Just kidding, I couldn't resist. <div></div>

[SpineDoc]

<DIV>LOL yeah why not?  Might as well throw some wizard DD's and a nec pet...</DIV>

[Sealron]

man i am so with you brother! you really hit the mark. im sure that some droods will still flame this post even though you were completely clear. But im with ya man!

[kenji]

<P>imhotep, sorry if i read right, fury special healing (regen) is on-par with warden. and have more superior direct heal (bitf) , just like inquisitor rh same as templar...</P> <P>u laugh when another class outheal mine? if soe see this they will cut u down quickly because the revamp is all about all priest heals the same. </P> <DIV>if a class able to both outheal templar and outdps templar, whats the point to play a templar? sub-par priest? =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and you put up another point, if u chain healing u will oop fast, but i tell u, even templar chain healing power wont go down, why? because of the freaking long recast, u got Nothing to cast after 3 direct heals (2 single 1 group) while Fury got 4 direct heal (3 single 1 grp) and hibernation? no wonder fury goes oop faster than templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if u care the ratio thing, almost all direct heal same power-hp ratio, so fury can out heal (main point) and faster oop, thats mean Fury is a far better healer due to able to best burst heal , and regen has the best stable heal ratio (if u care, its better ratio than RH and Ward).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dont laugh too much. self centered fury</DIV> <DIV> <P>Going a bit offtopic: templar solo healing poets is sweet, now try the same as a fury and you wil end up chainhealing every spell you have and you only manage to finish poets cuse you have a paladin tanking and he can heal himself.</P> <P>my guild group has no problem using a fury w/o paladin tanking. why is yours? no strat? =)</P></DIV>