Poor judgement SoE

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div>So Caethre's tread is no longer stickied and Kendrick's now is. Sorry guys, bad call. I won't be posting here again. <div></div>

[kenji]

<DIV>....deleted <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:51 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 PM</span>

[rtoub]

<DIV>I know lets have a civil war and fight for it, wait, that will take to long with our damage and be as boring as a Templar, Templar duel.  Besides both threads are full of enough flames as it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both threads have the information listed but I think Kendrick's format is easier to read and if I was a Dev I would prefere to use it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Luckly my flame retardent suit with the tin foil hat built in arived today.</DIV>

[kcirrot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <EM>Unlike some other threads, this thread will not begin from the assumption that the Templar class is essentially fine, and that anyone who disagrees is a 'whiner' who doesn't know how to play their class, but rather, that we Templars have a set of valid concerns, and we do not want to see our community split apart and many leave the game. This thread is not going to play the fanboy tune, but it is not going to assume the sky has fallen either, it will just list suggestions for making us feel we have a role to fulfil</EM>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From the second full paragraph of Caethre's post.  That's why Kendricke post is stickied and not her's.  I mean, don't you guys realize, they aren't listening to people like her any longer.  All she and Bigmak, and some of the others do is attack the essential vision of the game.  They might come up with some good suggestions but they are always wrapped in bile and hate.  So they get ignored.  As well they should.<BR></P>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>kcirrot wrote:From the second full paragraph of Caethre's post.  That's why Kendricke post is stickied and not her's.  I mean, don't you guys realize, they aren't listening to people like her any longer.  All she and Bigmak, and some of the others do is attack the essential vision of the game.  They might come up with some good suggestions but they are always wrapped in bile and hate.  So they get ignored.  As well they should. <div></div><hr></blockquote>*shrug* hope you still feel that way when you are playing alone.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Seriously, thank you those of you who have supported the issues thread. I have tried to maintain it for everyone. For as long as people wish to continue to contribute to it, I will continue to maintain it, whether it is "stickied" or not. I have sent a message to Raijinn to ask for clarification, but have so far not received a reply, but it was only a matter of hours ago, and he is a busy man, so I'd not have expected one as yet.</P> <P>As for this ...</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kcirrot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <EM>Unlike some other threads, this thread will not begin from the assumption that the Templar class is essentially fine, and that anyone who disagrees is a 'whiner' who doesn't know how to play their class, but rather, that we Templars have a set of valid concerns, and we do not want to see our community split apart and many leave the game. This thread is not going to play the fanboy tune, but it is not going to assume the sky has fallen either, it will just list suggestions for making us feel we have a role to fulfil</EM>.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From the second full paragraph of Caethre's post.  That's why Kendricke post is stickied and not her's.  I mean, don't you guys realize, they aren't listening to people like her any longer.  All she and Bigmak, and some of the others do is attack the essential vision of the game.  They might come up with some good suggestions but they are always wrapped in bile and hate.  So they get ignored.  As well they should.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kcirrot, you have correctly quoted my post, and that paragraph is there for a very good reason - prior to that thread being launched, anyone who was asking for changes had been personally attacked by certain board members, naturally making those of us calling for changes somewhat defensive. You may not have been around at the time, but I was, and it was not a pleasent atmosphere. However, it remains as relevant now as it was then - the thread was for suggestions, but based on the assumption that we need fixing, not on the assumption that those who think we need fixing are just whining for no good reason.</P> <P>Who SoE are and are not listening to is something I cannot know, and neither can you, and it is a matter for them. They are a professional company, and will do what they assess to be in the best interests of the game, but they will take into account the opinions of players where they feel they should. All of this is standard practice. All of this takes time. No matter how frustrated I may be that I feel my Templar is too weak to be worth playing, I have to wait with the rest of us, and just enjoy playing my Fury.</P> <P>But to say that my posts are wrapped in "bile and hate" is not only the complete opposite of the actual truth, it is an unprovoked and unpleasent personal attack of the very type I am referring to in that quote, and it is simply not acceptable. None of my posts have any private agenda nor ever had, the agenda has been public and open. Although sometimes I am very direct, that was always in response to personal attacks made upon me, by the tiny minority here saying or implying (as usual) that asking for changes = whining, exaggerating, hyperbole, and lots of other demeaning words.</P> <P>The flame wars in this community and on these boards this last few months have <EM>almost</EM> all been caused by, fueled by, and centred on, a single person. Yes, it is easy to blame one person, I know, but single-handedly have a long-running wrangle with at least five if not ten other posters over a period of months takes some achieving. That person is not nor was ever myself - we all know very well whom it is. I remain surprised that that person can still post to these boards, but that is, of course, not my decision.</P> <P>However, in the end, SoE's representative will make his own decision, he is the one in charge here. None of this will stop me from continuing to provide feedback on behalf of myself, and if it happens to coincidently represent the views of a large section of this community at the same time, that will only spur me to continue, until such a time that SoE actually finally let us know what they are intending to actually do about the mass balance issues amongst priests. If at that time, the decision is that "templars are fine", I will join the ever-growing mass ranks of people abandoning their templars for good. </P> <P>However, I believe that time will never come, because still I believe SoE will do some of the things I and many others are calling for. And when the Templar issues are addressed, largely because of the feedback from myself and hundreds of others (almost everyone has had some good ideas at some time or other in this period), and when many of us feel we can actually play our Templars again without feeling like relative weaklings compared to other priests, I will disappear back into the obscurity I came from, and play the game and enjoy it as I used to.</P> <P>Until that time, however, I (and I hope many others) will continue to present our feedback to SoE.</P> <P>I love EverQuest II, I am not and have never criticized their staff or their game as a whole, and that is not going to change. Some others have, and that is still feedback and has its place (well, not the attacking staff, that is just wrong, but we won't go there). That doesn't mean, that I believe everything is fine - our class is in a bad state, and if I have to take a few hits from random people spouting vitriol, for saying that, so be it.</P> <P>Felishanna.</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:03 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><p>**REMOVED TROLL POST**</p><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class="date_text">12-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:40 PM </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">Just calling it like I see it, but I guess some of us aren't allowed to.  Maybe I should resort to implied insults and attacks also. </span></p><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 PM</span>

[kcirrot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>But to say that my posts are wrapped in "bile and hate" is not only the complete opposite of the actual truth, it is an unprovoked and unpleasent personal attack of the very type I am referring to in that quote, and it is simply not acceptable. None of my posts have any private agenda nor ever had, the agenda has been public and open. Although sometimes I am very direct, that was always in response to personal attacks made upon me, by the tiny minority here saying or implying (as usual) that asking for changes = whining, exaggerating, hyperbole, and lots of other demeaning words.</P> <P>The flame wars in this community and on these boards this last few months have <EM>almost</EM> all been caused by, fueled by, and centred on, a single person. Yes, it is easy to blame one person, I know, but single-handedly have a long-running wrangle with at least five if not ten other posters over a period of months takes some achieving. That person is not nor was ever myself - we all know very well whom it is. I remain surprised that that person can still post to these boards, but that is, of course, not my decision.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry, but I stand by what I said.  You know I've read a lot of your posts, and it seems that you really do just want some changes to the Templar class.  In that way, I find when you blow up at Kendricke (and that's who we're talking about) very troubling.  That guy might goad you all, but really he's just arguing the other side.  Perhaps he's a bit arrogant about it, but resorting to name-calling like "fanboy" is bile in my book.  It lessens what it otherwise a constructive post.  It was an invitation to a flame war.  It was also unnecessary.</P> <P>From my perspective, I agree that Templar need some things, but really you guys have been apoplectic for three months over losing the best healer title.  And it really isn't that bad.  Templars still contribute.  They might have some problems now that should be addressed, but it is nothing like what Furies were pre LU13. <BR></P> <p>Message Edited by kcirrot on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kcirrot wrote:<BR><BR> <P>That guy might goad you all, but really he's just arguing the other side.  Perhaps he's a bit arrogant about it, but resorting to name-calling like "fanboy" is bile in my book.  It lessens what it otherwise a constructive post.  It was an invitation to a flame war.  It was also unnecessary.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I suggest you do a little research on the subject of who said what to whom and in what order before you make these kinds of judgemental remarks. Look on the board forum histories, look for unedited posts (although the worst ones were subsequently edited to hide the evidence, but there are some here who saw the originals). I'll say nothing more on that, and I suggest you do not either.</FONT></P> <P>From my perspective... <snip></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You may have whatever opinion you choose. However, many of us are so unhappy with the current state of templar balance that people are quitting, re-rolling, retiring, resting and playing alts, playing only for guild needs and otherwise not, or at least, reporting deep dissatisfaction. Yes, many of us do feel is really is "that bad". Your mileage may vary.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kcirrot wrote:<BR><BR> <P>That guy might goad you all, but really he's just arguing the other side.  Perhaps he's a bit arrogant about it, but resorting to name-calling like "fanboy" is bile in my book.  It lessens what it otherwise a constructive post.  It was an invitation to a flame war.  It was also unnecessary.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I suggest you do a little research on the subject of who said what to whom and in what order before you make these kinds of judgemental remarks. Look on the board forum histories, look for unedited posts (although the worst ones were subsequently edited to hide the evidence, but there are some here who saw the originals). I'll say nothing more on that, and I suggest you do not either.</FONT></P> <P>From my perspective... </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You may have whatever opinion you choose. However, many of us are so unhappy with the current state of templar balance that people are quitting, re-rolling, retiring, resting and playing alts, playing only for guild needs and otherwise not, or at least, reporting deep dissatisfaction. Yes, many of us do feel is really is "that bad". Your mileage may vary.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I suppose goading and arrogance is necessary though?  What a hypocrite to be criticizing criticism while admitting goading and arrogant tones from the person kcirrot is sticking up for.   I'll say this much, it's truth when Caethre says you had to be here from the beginning and I saw it.  He started it.  Definitely!  Now Caethre is being pointed at because she addressed all the veiled and no so veiled insults.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen enough, haven't you yet Caethre?  And yeah, WHY was your post de-stickied anyway?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could see Raijiin doing the moderating parts.  I was even criticized for understanding that because it's his job.  But this part, I disagree with entirely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That kcirrot doesn't even sound like a Templar.  Sounds like he's posting to make sure furies aren't nerfed.  So there is an agenda despite the disclaimer.   What bull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>12-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 PM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>all the stickies gone because of msg board revamp , not only Templar's. all the other board stickies were gone. however, Kend's wasnt stickied before, but now stickied... w/o saying anything (usually Devs will post a reply abt it gonna get stickied). i can only feel wiered <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Andu]

Very poor judgment. I would agree that Kenny's thread is laid out more clearly (although he did pinch the layout from someone else). However, I just don't trust him to make the case for us properly and I feel concerned that now the only initial reference the devs will be making for our class issues is under his control. <div></div>

[Andalla]

<P>The loss of Caethre's sticky is due to the board revamp, and nothing else. Kendricke merely has had his stickies done again since then.</P> <P>I agree that Caethre should avoid flaming and personal attacks. You may not agree when Kendricke is arguing the other side of the story, but you guys are on the same team. Maybe you should bury the sword; Kendricke doesn't seem to want a fight. The inquisitor board has had a lot of success, and we don't even have a class leader. We just try to address issues maturely and without flaming, and so far it has worked like a gem. Perhaps the templars should try to follow in the Inquisitor footsteps, and approach things more realistically and rationally. I think it makes it harder that your class was so rediculously broken pre LU 13, and now have to deal with the way the rest of the healers were before the changes, but that's something you guys just have to deal with and move forward.</P> <P>If you really want changes, rational voice and argument will always work better than bickering, name calling, and other petty behavior. We all love being sarcastic and biting and witty, but in the end the rational voice gets heard. It is simply taken more seriously, and if you think SOE wants to read about how much they've screwed up, how bad they are, how lazy they are, etc, you might want to rethink posting on a board that is intended to be for class discussion, and not simply to create angst.</P>

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Andalla wrote:<p>The loss of Caethre's sticky is due to the board revamp, and nothing else. Kendricke merely has had his stickies done again since then.</p><div></div>blah blah <hr></blockquote>We know that, the whole point is why hasn't Caethre's post been restickied too. </span> As for all the other stuff, you haven't been on the end of one of Kenny's little tirades have you? Believe me, having had a full dose of his patronising attitude (note this is not a personal attack, he has acknowledged this himself) it's either vent or track him down and do unpleasant things to him with a spork. Most of us are too busy for option (b) so we resort to (a). <div></div>

[Andalla]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>We know that, the whole point is why hasn't Caethre's post been restickied too.<BR></SPAN><BR>As for all the other stuff, you haven't been on the end of one of Kenny's little tirades have you? Believe me, having had a full dose of his patronising attitude (note this is not a personal attack, he has acknowledged this himself) it's either vent or track him down and do unpleasant things to him with a spork. Most of us are too busy for option (b) so we resort to (a).<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Uhhh, no I haven't, because I would rather listen than speak, so I typically don't encourage them, or make posts that cause them. I have, however, read Kendricke's posts, and my earlier statement remains. I find many attitudes on this board downright rotten, so I'll take patronising.</DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andalla wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>We know that, the whole point is why hasn't Caethre's post been restickied too.<BR></SPAN><BR>As for all the other stuff, you haven't been on the end of one of Kenny's little tirades have you? Believe me, having had a full dose of his patronising attitude (note this is not a personal attack, he has acknowledged this himself) it's either vent or track him down and do unpleasant things to him with a spork. Most of us are too busy for option (b) so we resort to (a).<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Uhhh, no I haven't, because I would rather listen than speak, so I typically don't encourage them, or make posts that cause them. I have, however, read Kendricke's posts, and my earlier statement remains. I find many attitudes on this board downright rotten, so I'll take patronising.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Xerxess]

<P>I suppose...but Ceathe and Kendricke are both in a way insulting to others...Kendricke is arrogant and Ceathe is sometimes just down right in your face. </P> <P>Though the point does remina why was Kendricks post re-sticked and not Ceathe's post? Seems odd doesn't it?</P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Xerxess wrote:<p>I suppose...but Ceathe and Kendricke are both in a way insulting to others...Kendricke is arrogant and Ceathe is sometimes just down right in your face. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> That's all I was saying.  </span><div></div>

[MadisonPark]

<DIV>It seemed to me that Caethres post was starting to go off topic.</DIV>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>same can be said for any post...</DIV>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote:<div></div>So Caethre's tread is no longer stickied and Kendrick's now is. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That falls right in line with what one would expect on this board.  Things look bleak for Templar fixes in the future.</span><div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote: <div>I suppose goading and arrogance is necessary though?  What a hypocrite to be criticizing criticism while admitting goading and arrogant tones from the person kcirrot is sticking up for.</div> <hr></blockquote>I did find that pretty funny myself.</span><div></div>

[Andu]

Well sanity reigns, the thread is restickied and this one can now go to bed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[kcirrot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That kcirrot doesn't even sound like a Templar.  Sounds like he's posting to make sure furies aren't nerfed.  So there is an agenda despite the disclaimer.   What bull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>12-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, of course, I play a Fury.  Among other classes.  I post here because Furies are discussed here more often than on the Fury boards.  If Furies get nerfed, *shrug*, can't be any worse than they were.   And believe it or not I would like to see Templars with higher DPS and more fun utility.  I think every class deserves that.  It think it's fair.  </P> <P>Once the level 1-20 changes go in, I'll be starting some more priests, and I've always liked the idea of wearing heavy armor.  <BR></P>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kcirrot wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, of course, I play a Fury. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0066>I knew that.  This forum is getting totally predictable.  You were no exception.</FONT></P> <P>Among other classes.  I post here because Furies are discussed here more often than on the Fury boards. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0066>Negative.  You post here to make sure you voice your opinion about how Templars aren't so bad (your words) even though you never played one.  Agendas.</FONT></P> <P>If Furies get nerfed, *shrug*, can't be any worse than they were.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0066>I have a funny feeling you won't be shrugging it off so easily.</FONT></P> <P>And believe it or not I would like to see Templars with higher DPS and more fun utility.  I think every class deserves that.  It think it's fair. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0066>Oh sure, another cookie-cutter class will solve everything.  It's fair and politically correct, but it makes absolutely no sense in an MMO.</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm glad Caethre's post was re-stickied but it's not because I agree that her plight will solve EQ2's dilemma.  I don't believe for a second that DPS is going to be the end-all solution.  I simply like the way SHE tolerates a different suggestion and doesn't challenge it.  She stands her ground on her own theory and that's about all she posts replies to.</P> <P>It does amaze me though, that for so many so-called "personal attacks" that are deleted daily from these forums, the posts worded like yours go untouched.  Bottom line, that's part of the reason why I'm disgusted being here.  From watching so much effort being put into posts to slam people in such a way that the moderator doesn't do anything to them because they are considered "borderline" or implied.  Let's face it, a lot of you ripped apart a dictionary to get that dig in and let it stand - and you know it.  I'm not an idiot and I see right through it ALL.  I get zapped because I don't go that route.  If I have a problem with the way someone spoke to me, they'll know it in no uncertain terms.  I may be blunt, but I'm not a fake.  Fakes are people who excuse problems because they have their reasons to ignore that there is one.</P> <P>All B.S. aside, this entire conflict boils down to 2 things:  The we are fine crowd vs. the we need changes crowd.</P> <P>I believe any seasoned player with Sony games knows for a fact they need changes.  Sony knows it.  The players know it.  From the dwindling server populations to the cranky forum posters to the mass guild recruiting and reduced box price on the shelf, we all know it.  Numbers speak.  Denial just looks the other way and demands proof from sources you'll never see open to the public.</P> <P>I'll say this again, one last time, as MY opinion based on experience and fact:  DPS is NOT going to solve the class issues in this game.  You simply have TOO MANY classes doing the same jobs without distinct diversity.  When that happens, chaos happens.  The original plan should have maintained separate cities who were supposed to be at war with each other, not playing together in the same sandbox sharing shovels to dig themselves out of the hole they buried themselves in -- and then beating each other over the heads with the same shovel out of game, in the forums.  With that plan in place, you would have had 3, not 6, archetypes to worry about and would have been able to give them the uniqueness they are looking for because the group interaction would be LIMITED to 3.  When you take that care-bear approach in a war, and let everyone mingle, group, raid and guild together, what did anyone expect?</P> <P>The economy is screwed up because it's so easy to buy off a fence broker, it doesn't matter which side is selling.  And if you want to bypass that, just sneak right into the city.  It's no well-guarded fortress, that's for sure.  I've done it often.  Or heck, just do a few coin quests and zone into your alliance and either side will sell you whatever you want from Qeynos or Freeport in there, unscathed from any guard.  Who thought up this is what I want to know?</P> <P>And now we have an expansion coming that's going to include PvP.  Is anyone going to discuss HOW that's possible without changing the dynamics of the interaction going on?  Or are we all going to just flag ourselves for PvP and sniping people who annoy us?</P> <P>There's a storyline here!  Lucan vs. Antonia Bayle or have we forgotten the lore?  They hate each other!  We're not SUPPOSED to be even talking to each other.  They should remove the capability to even speak to the other opposing faction.  As with any novel, short story, movie, or anything with a PLOT, every writer knows you have to have CONFLICT.  The conflict in EQ2 is PvE and that's it.  Everyone else just gets along fine.  Heck, they even welcome them into their guild "families" and breed.  If you're going to make classes unique for each alliance, i.e, conflict, MEAN it.  Don't just allow the counter-city to mingle at will or it not only means nothing, it cheapens the ENTIRE structure of both classes.  This is exactly what has happened and needs to be fixed.</P> <P>Expansions:  Desert of Flames a/k/a Desert of Ro.  I keep looking for the old East Commons tunnels but all I found was some palace.  If I play my quests right, I even get to hide in a room and buy stuff with no social interaction whatsoever.  Except for the annoying pervert in there who keeps scheming on how to win some woman who can't stomach the sight of him but keeps taking his presents and laughing.  It just wasn't the nostalgia I was hoping for.</P> <P>I'm sorry.  I hate to take this post out on you, you don't deserve it.  But there's a reason the game isn't succeeding the way it rightfully should have.  EQ1 was a great story, with great mechanics for it's time.  I just feel that EQ2 could have been so much more and it's just a shame it's ending this way for a lot of people.</P> <P>I'm sure a lot of you will find my version shocking, even though I haven't even started to scratch the surface.  Some will hate it, hate me and some will love it.  It's the way it goes.  You either love this game and accept that it's not what you thought it would be or you resign yourself to quitting after years and years of patronage, because it simply isn't what it was.  But the truth the way I see it is, you're going nowhere with DPS as your focus.  I'm sorry to say, but after so many months, that's all the creativity I'm mainly reading and I KNOW these people are far more creative than mere DPS solutions.  I do realize, however, that they were challenged far too often before they could even get an idea off the ground.  And that was the problem with this forum.  It bothers me that with this many good minds, they weren't able to get further with their ideas because road-block arguments were planted at every curve.</P> <P>As someone else said and I can't remember his/her name..... "it's amazing just how much we forgot in 500 years".   In here, it's just a shame we're not even allowed to remember and offer suggestions. </P> <P>Maybe in another 500 years, when SoE possibly wants to recreate, with needed improvements, their original saga, we'll all be content and have fun again.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>kcirrot wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Kaylena wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>That kcirrot doesn't even sound like a Templar.  Sounds like he's posting to make sure furies aren't nerfed.  So there is an agenda despite the disclaimer.   What bull.</div> <div> </div> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class="date_text">12-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:17 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>Yes, of course, I play a Fury.  Among other classes.  I post here because Furies are discussed here more often than on the Fury boards.  If Furies get nerfed, *shrug*, can't be any worse than they were.   And believe it or not I would like to see Templars with higher DPS and more fun utility.  I think every class deserves that.  It think it's fair.  </p> <p>Once the level 1-20 changes go in, I'll be starting some more priests, and I've always liked the idea of wearing heavy armor.  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Don't worry about it.  I value your opinion no matter what class you are.  The "Templars Suck" crowd here will label anyone who disagrees as having an agenda, as if there's some kind of vast conspirarcy against Templars.  In a game where classes interact with more so with other classes than their own, it has always seemed funny to me that these Templars dismiss ideas on the basis that you don't play their class.  Of course, had you simply agreed with them you would've been an agenda free enlightened player, whatever class you played.</span> <div></div>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kcirrot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That kcirrot doesn't even sound like a Templar.  Sounds like he's posting to make sure furies aren't nerfed.  So there is an agenda despite the disclaimer.   What bull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>12-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:17 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, of course, I play a Fury.  Among other classes.  I post here because Furies are discussed here more often than on the Fury boards.  If Furies get nerfed, *shrug*, can't be any worse than they were.   And believe it or not I would like to see Templars with higher DPS and more fun utility.  I think every class deserves that.  It think it's fair.  </P> <P>Once the level 1-20 changes go in, I'll be starting some more priests, and I've always liked the idea of wearing heavy armor.  <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Don't worry about it.  I value your opinion no matter what class you are.  The "Templars Suck" crowd here will label anyone who disagrees as having an agenda, as if there's some kind of vast conspirarcy against Templars.  In a game where classes interact with more so with other classes than their own, it has always seemed funny to me that these Templars dismiss ideas on the basis that you don't play their class.  <BR><BR>Of course, had you simply agreed with them you would've been an agenda free enlightened player, whatever class you played.<BR></SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sokolov, yours is exactly the type of post I'm talking about.  No substance, no solution, just mindless arguments that go nowhere.</P> <P>Why WOULD I value an opinion on Templars from people who don't play them?  It would be one thing if you offered a conversation about them.  But you're not.  All you're doing is adding to the crap that goes on here.</P> <P>You didn't even read what I wrote.  Your post indicates that you have no interest either.  Your only interest is posting stupid comments that incite people and take them away from discussing what might be good for the game.  Keep it up.  Soon you'll be arguing with yourself.  Guaranteed.</P>

[kcirrot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I'm sorry.  I hate to take this post out on you, you don't deserve it.  But there's a reason the game isn't succeeding the way it rightfully should have.  EQ1 was a great story, with great mechanics for it's time.  I just feel that EQ2 could have been so much more and it's just a shame it's ending this way for a lot of people.</P> <P>I'm sure a lot of you will find my version shocking, even though I haven't even started to scratch the surface.  Some will hate it, hate me and some will love it.  It's the way it goes.  You either love this game and accept that it's not what you thought it would be or you resign yourself to quitting after years and years of patronage, because it simply isn't what it was.  But the truth the way I see it is, you're going nowhere with DPS as your focus.  I'm sorry to say, but after so many months, that's all the creativity I'm mainly reading and I KNOW these people are far more creative than mere DPS solutions.  I do realize, however, that they were challenged far too often before they could even get an idea off the ground.  And that was the problem with this forum.  It bothers me that with this many good minds, they weren't able to get further with their ideas because road-block arguments were planted at every curve.</P> <P>As someone else said and I can't remember his/her name..... "it's amazing just how much we forgot in 500 years".   In here, it's just a shame we're not even allowed to remember and offer suggestions. </P> <P>Maybe in another 500 years, when SoE possibly wants to recreate, with needed improvements, their original saga, we'll all be content and have fun again.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First thing, I don't take any of this stuff that seriously.  Venting in reply to my post is fine.  But this kinda goes back to the whole thing about what EQ2 is supposed to be about.  EQ 2 is just supposed to be a casual, user friendly version of EQ.  In that vein, I think classes and subclasses are more about a certain feel than what they actually do. </P> <P>DPS might not fix everything, but it would help. </P> <P>And so long as EQ 2 has about 150K-200K players it will do fine.  City of Heroes/Villains manages to update just fine with that exact amount.  But SOE just isn't chasing the EQ 1 crowd with this game.  I think they're more than willing to cede them to Vanguard.  They are trying to create a game where your choice of class is a personal one and not one that permanently leaves you "[Removed for Content]" in the eyes of the player base.</P> <P>And see, while Templars need some more fun, they are not "[Removed for Content]".    So no, everything is not "fine" but on the other hand, things aren't so dire either.<BR></P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> kcirrot wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Kaylena wrote: <div> </div> <div>That kcirrot doesn't even sound like a Templar.  Sounds like he's posting to make sure furies aren't nerfed.  So there is an agenda despite the disclaimer.   What bull.</div> <div> </div> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class="date_text">12-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:17 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Yes, of course, I play a Fury.  Among other classes.  I post here because Furies are discussed here more often than on the Fury boards.  If Furies get nerfed, *shrug*, can't be any worse than they were.   And believe it or not I would like to see Templars with higher DPS and more fun utility.  I think every class deserves that.  It think it's fair.  </p> <p>Once the level 1-20 changes go in, I'll be starting some more priests, and I've always liked the idea of wearing heavy armor.  </p> <hr> </blockquote>Don't worry about it.  I value your opinion no matter what class you are.  The "Templars Suck" crowd here will label anyone who disagrees as having an agenda, as if there's some kind of vast conspirarcy against Templars.  In a game where classes interact with more so with other classes than their own, it has always seemed funny to me that these Templars dismiss ideas on the basis that you don't play their class.  Of course, had you simply agreed with them you would've been an agenda free enlightened player, whatever class you played.</span> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Sokolov, yours is exactly the type of post I'm talking about.  No substance, no solution, just mindless arguments that go nowhere.</p> <p>Why WOULD I value an opinion on Templars from people who don't play them?  It would be one thing if you offered a conversation about them.  But you're not.  All you're doing is adding to the crap that goes on here.</p> <p>You didn't even read what I wrote.  Your post indicates that you have no interest either.  Your only interest is posting stupid comments that incite people and take them away from discussing what might be good for the game.  Keep it up.  Soon you'll be arguing with yourself.  Guaranteed.</p> <hr></blockquote>See what I mean? "</span><span>It would be one thing if you offered a conversation about them." Oh, but I have.  I used to.  </span><span>But I just get yelled at time and again for "not being a Templar."  And it seems obvious from your post here that you don't even remember what I had said before.  Right now, I am more annoyed at this behavior than anything else, thus that is what I am commenting on.  If you wish, I can re-hash my arguments again, but I am sure it wll be dismissed as "non-Templar," but we also know the real reason is purely because I disagree. Besides, THIS thread is talking about the attitudes of the posters and why threads were stickied and un-stickied.  Re-throwing the same tired arguments into yet another thread isn't likely to change anything, on either side.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Again, no substance, just more childish remarks because he can't even try to appear intelligent and address the situation just spelled out for him.  I bet you're hoping the thread gets locked so you can score in derailing the inevitable issues yet again.</P> <P>EDIT:  You edited that post above to more then just the original comment of, "See what I mean?"  You added so I'll add.  I have no objection to you posting your thoughts about the real issue.  That's all I've been looking to discuss since LU#13.  I don't even care if your suggestions don't meld with mine.  I just don't want to hear how there's no logic, proof, valid argument, "ad-hominem attacks" and whatever rambling that usually goes on here.  Heck, I could desbribe the bile I taste everytime I have to see that Howdy Doody face with the carrot top hair in someone's signature post after another egotistical run-on lecture, but I'll spare those details for the sake of constructive discussion, sure.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:37 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

Oh, and you know what?  I actually agree with you that DPS won't solve anything, the underlying issues are much larger, but I don't feel this is the thread for it, and it's not like i haven't already said that before and no one listened.  Call me bitter. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Kaylena wrote:</P> <P>I'm sure a lot of you will find my version shocking, even though I haven't even started to scratch the surface.  Some will hate it, hate me and some will love it.  It's the way it goes.  You either love this game and accept that it's not what you thought it would be or you resign yourself to quitting after years and years of patronage, because it simply isn't what it was.  But the truth the way I see it is, you're going nowhere with DPS as your focus.  I'm sorry to say, but after so many months, that's all the creativity I'm mainly reading and I KNOW these people are far more creative than mere DPS solutions.  I do realize, however, that they were challenged far too often before they could even get an idea off the ground.  And that was the problem with this forum.  It bothers me that with this many good minds, they weren't able to get further with their ideas because road-block arguments were planted at every curve.</P> <P>As someone else said and I can't remember his/her name..... "it's amazing just how much we forgot in 500 years".   In here, it's just a shame we're not even allowed to remember and offer suggestions. </P> <P>Maybe in another 500 years, when SoE possibly wants to recreate, with needed improvements, their original saga, we'll all be content and have fun again.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Spoken as a true EQ1 veteran and unfortunately Kaylena thats the problem.   I know Gchang and I have talked about this in the past but many of us are just dinosaurs from another MMO generation.   The days of the old EQ1/UO/DAoC have changed.   A new market of players have emerged and I can't fault SOE for trying to be successful.</P> <P>This newer market demands the ability to solo and DPS is the easiest solution (although not one I personally agree with).    To put Everquest 2 in the light of Everquest 1 is unfair and inaccurate no matter what expectations people had at launch.   You are correct, you either love or hate the game.   As many complaints and suffering as I see (and sometimes have when I solo) I still love this game and my Templar.</P> <P>I think the "we are fine" crowd is a lot thinner than you give credence too but your real problem lies in the "we need correcting" crowd and their disagreement on a solution.   Hence the Developers having to make decisions without much assistance from the community.</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Sokolov wrote: <P><SPAN>... I just get yelled at time and again for "not being a Templar."  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>... but I am sure it wll be dismissed as "non-Templar," but we also know the real reason is purely because I disagree.<BR></SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nonsense. You do not get the reaction you do for disagreeing. Indeed, quite a number of non-Templars have posted here, most agreeing but a few disagreeing, giving observations and opinions, but they have almost all done so respectfully and with in-game reasons, and without direct <EM>or implied</EM> personal attacks.</P> <P>However, since you have raised the subject of yourself and the reaction you are getting, I've seen so many posts by you, the whole purpose of which was to personally insult a previous poster, indeed, I've been the target of some of them, but you have a whole group of people you like to snipe at. This is troll behaviour. It is not helpful. This is why you are not welcome here, we do not need trolls of any kind. Unsurprisingly, that is why the moderator has deleted some of your posts for Trolling (like your first post on this very thread, for example).</P> <P>This forum here is primarily for discussing the Templar class. Feel free to read and learn, but if you want to attack us, just go somewhere else. I hear there is a Defiler forum somewhere. I don't play a Defiler, so I never go there, but perhaps you should look into it?</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Radar-X wrote: <P>I think the "we are fine" crowd is a lot thinner than you give credence too but your real problem lies in the "we need correcting" crowd and their disagreement on a solution.   Hence the Developers having to make decisions without much assistance from the community.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are correct of course.</P> <P>There are a range of views of "where should we go from here". None of them are clearly more "right" than any of the others. The old EQ1 model of a best-healer-worst-dps/soloer is one way, but SoE don't seem to like it. The possible future of equal-healers-equal-everything-else is the seeming only solution now, even if I do accept it removes the need for all these classes, a non-ideal situation BUT far better than where we are now.</P> <P>I think by this point, so many of us are so despondent, we would settle for either/any option given us, so we correlate the various views and present them to the design team, and have to have belief that somewhere they have a vision for where THEY want us to go, but one where we can feel overall balanced against other priest classes, something that is clearly far from true now, especially for certain types of gamers.</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR>Oh, and you know what?  I actually agree with you that DPS won't solve anything, the underlying issues are much larger, but I don't feel this is the thread for it, and it's not like i haven't already said that before and no one listened.  Call me bitter.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who cares what thread it's in?  That's not important and I'm not a picky librarian.  Put out the "larger issues" and brainstorm them.  Do you think I haven't been told it's too much to fix or too late at this stage of the game?  I have.  Because of that everyone else seems to have adopted the quick fix solutions rather then face the bigger picture.  But is it better to watch the game fold or become the next niche MMO with 20k subscribers of people who go with the flow?  At this point, who cares?  You have nothing to lose by saying what may revive an ailing situation.  I'm sure SoE would appreciate that more.  Sony's a huge corporation.  It's never too late for guys with that kind of money.

[Sokolov]

You may notice that the statement she calls "good" is one, I presume, she agrees with.  The ones she disagrees with she describes has having "no basis is truth." Well, I got news for you, truth is all about prespective, and from my point of view, what I said is the truth.  I am not even attacking YOU personally, but more of how you portray yourself on the boards.  I make no presumptions about your personal life (altho I do recall you suggesting some people have no life, which you did later retract to some extent if I remember correctly) nor your abilities as a Templar.  I only suggest that your point of view has no moral high ground here, it's simply one side of the multi-faceted debate. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:Oh, and you know what?  I actually agree with you that DPS won't solve anything, the underlying issues are much larger, but I don't feel this is the thread for it, and it's not like i haven't already said that before and no one listened.  Call me bitter. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Who cares what thread it's in?  That's not important and I'm not a picky librarian.  Put out the "larger issues" and brainstorm them.  Do you think I haven't been told it's too much to fix or too late at this stage of the game?  I have.  Because of that everyone else seems to have adopted the quick fix solutions rather then face the bigger picture.  But is it better to watch the game fold or become the next niche MMO with 20k subscribers of people who go with the flow?  At this point, who cares?  You have nothing to lose by saying what may revive an ailing situation.  I'm sure SoE would appreciate that more.  Sony's a huge corporation.  It's never too late for guys with that kind of money. <div></div><hr></blockquote>You do realize you called me on derailing earlier and now you are suggesting we should derail! =D  Sorry, no, I do understand what you are saying, but that made me giggle. The reaosn I don't say much anymore is because I just feel like it's all been said before, but everyone is so fixated on the "I NEED MORE DPS" issue that everything else seems to get ignored. I am quite disillusioned with SoE's ability to fix things though, if you check out the tradeskill forum and the responses the few devs have posted... most of them merely say "I'll look into it" and then nothing is done and the latest reply actually amounts to "shut up, we are busy working on the next expansion," one realizes the picture is quite bleak =/</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Kaylena wrote:</P> <P>I'm sure a lot of you will find my version shocking, even though I haven't even started to scratch the surface.  Some will hate it, hate me and some will love it.  It's the way it goes.  You either love this game and accept that it's not what you thought it would be or you resign yourself to quitting after years and years of patronage, because it simply isn't what it was.  But the truth the way I see it is, you're going nowhere with DPS as your focus.  I'm sorry to say, but after so many months, that's all the creativity I'm mainly reading and I KNOW these people are far more creative than mere DPS solutions.  I do realize, however, that they were challenged far too often before they could even get an idea off the ground.  And that was the problem with this forum.  It bothers me that with this many good minds, they weren't able to get further with their ideas because road-block arguments were planted at every curve.</P> <P>As someone else said and I can't remember his/her name..... "it's amazing just how much we forgot in 500 years".   In here, it's just a shame we're not even allowed to remember and offer suggestions. </P> <P>Maybe in another 500 years, when SoE possibly wants to recreate, with needed improvements, their original saga, we'll all be content and have fun again.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Spoken as a true EQ1 veteran and unfortunately Kaylena thats the problem.   I know Gchang and I have talked about this in the past but many of us are just dinosaurs from another MMO generation.   The days of the old EQ1/UO/DAoC have changed.   A new market of players have emerged and I can't fault SOE for trying to be successful.</P> <P>This newer market demands the ability to solo and DPS is the easiest solution (although not one I personally agree with).    To put Everquest 2 in the light of Everquest 1 is unfair and inaccurate no matter what expectations people had at launch.   You are correct, you either love or hate the game.   As many complaints and suffering as I see (and sometimes have when I solo) I still love this game and my Templar.</P> <P>I think the "we are fine" crowd is a lot thinner than you give credence too but your real problem lies in the "we need correcting" crowd and their disagreement on a solution.   Hence the Developers having to make decisions without much assistance from the community.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Those are two different types of dinosaurs though, Radar.  I don't want to go back to a game that required 5 years of my time to be at its pinnacle.  I'm NEVER doing that again.  No way!  I want laid back, live my life, play my hobby , have fun and that's it.  </P> <P>If you want to see true dinosaurs, I can point you to the Vanguard forums where you have people screaming for long corpse runs, painful experience grinding and mind-boggling content.  That's a niche market I don't even think McQuaid is sadistic enough to invest in.</P> <P>I'm talking about unique, self-sufficient classes that today's market demands and I think you are too.</P> <P>It's no secret that Gchang and I are experimenting in WoW at the moment.  And despite the "kiddie-play" rumors that run amuck on this board, nothing could be farther from the truth.  I'm sure the cartoon-ish art was mainly responsible for the initial "G" rating of that game and the free-for-all style forums where anything goes that cinched that opinion, but in the game itself, it's totally different.  I'm looking at things that should be here!  They're great ideas, mostly ripped off from EQ1.  That totally burned me up because they should be in EQ2!  With EQ2's graphics and EQ1's original class concepts, WoW should have NEVER surpassed them in subscriptions.  But they did, and there's a reason for it and it has nothing to do with "catering to the kiddies" and I can prove it to you if you'd like that challenge, I'll show you personally exactly what we're talking about.  Take what you see then back to the devs you know and THEN let's see what happens when you tell them.</P>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR>Oh, and you know what?  I actually agree with you that DPS won't solve anything, the underlying issues are much larger, but I don't feel this is the thread for it, and it's not like i haven't already said that before and no one listened.  Call me bitter.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who cares what thread it's in?  That's not important and I'm not a picky librarian.  Put out the "larger issues" and brainstorm them.  Do you think I haven't been told it's too much to fix or too late at this stage of the game?  I have.  Because of that everyone else seems to have adopted the quick fix solutions rather then face the bigger picture.  But is it better to watch the game fold or become the next niche MMO with 20k subscribers of people who go with the flow?  At this point, who cares?  You have nothing to lose by saying what may revive an ailing situation.  I'm sure SoE would appreciate that more.  Sony's a huge corporation.  It's never too late for guys with that kind of money. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You do realize you called me on derailing earlier and now you are suggesting we should derail! =D  Sorry, no, I do understand what you are saying, but that made me giggle.<BR><BR>The reaosn I don't say much anymore is because I just feel like it's all been said before, but everyone is so fixated on the "I NEED MORE DPS" issue that everything else seems to get ignored.<BR><BR>I am quite disillusioned with SoE's ability to fix things though, if you check out the tradeskill forum and the responses the few devs have posted... most of them merely say "I'll look into it" and then nothing is done and the latest reply actually amounts to "shut up, we are busy working on the next expansion," one realizes the picture is quite bleak =/<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't consider discussing the heart of the issue this forum has been talking about forever as "derailing".  Everything else is derailing, yes.  Talking about the REAL issue is not.  So I don't care where you put it if that's what you're going to talk about.</P> <P>I agree, DPS is the quick bandaid.  It's not going to heal the overall health of this game.  Never, imo.</P> <P>I don't think "disillusioned" is quite the word I would use for SoE's ability to fix things, however.  Overwhelmed at the prospect of another revamp might be closer to the real dilemma.  How would the customer react to another drastic change?  Are the changes even ready to implement?  Are we ready to lose our shirts and face if we don't do it right again?  -- That's more like what I think they're probably thinking.  But I could be wrong.  That would take some humbling to admit.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 AM</span>

[Gcha]

Get to work Kay.  [Removed for Content] you doing over here.  I thought you were making me some healing potions <smile>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote: <div></div> <div></div><span> <blockquote> <hr> Kaylena wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:Oh, and you know what?  I actually agree with you that DPS won't solve anything, the underlying issues are much larger, but I don't feel this is the thread for it, and it's not like i haven't already said that before and no one listened.  Call me bitter. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Who cares what thread it's in?  That's not important and I'm not a picky librarian.  Put out the "larger issues" and brainstorm them.  Do you think I haven't been told it's too much to fix or too late at this stage of the game?  I have.  Because of that everyone else seems to have adopted the quick fix solutions rather then face the bigger picture.  But is it better to watch the game fold or become the next niche MMO with 20k subscribers of people who go with the flow?  At this point, who cares?  You have nothing to lose by saying what may revive an ailing situation.  I'm sure SoE would appreciate that more.  Sony's a huge corporation.  It's never too late for guys with that kind of money. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>You do realize you called me on derailing earlier and now you are suggesting we should derail! =D  Sorry, no, I do understand what you are saying, but that made me giggle.The reaosn I don't say much anymore is because I just feel like it's all been said before, but everyone is so fixated on the "I NEED MORE DPS" issue that everything else seems to get ignored.I am quite disillusioned with SoE's ability to fix things though, if you check out the tradeskill forum and the responses the few devs have posted... most of them merely say "I'll look into it" and then nothing is done and the latest reply actually amounts to "shut up, we are busy working on the next expansion," one realizes the picture is quite bleak =/</span> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">12-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:48 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>I don't consider discussing the heart of the issue this forum has been talking about forever as "derailing".  Everything else is derailing, yes.  Talking about the REAL issue is not.  So I don't care where you put it if that's what you're going to talk about.</p> <p>I agree, DPS is the quick bandaid.  It's not going to heal the overall health of this game.  Never, imo.</p> <p>I don't think "disillusioned" is quite the word I would use for SoE's ability to fix things, however.  Overwhelmed at the prospect of another revamp might be closer to the real dilemma.  How would the customer react to another drastic change?  Are the changes even ready to implement?  Are we ready to lose our shirts and face if we don't do it right again?  -- That's more like what I think they're probably thinking.  But I could be wrong.  That would take some humbling to admit.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class="date_text">12-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The latest thing SWG got is not inspiring either =/  I recently started to play EVE Online as well and their server (singular) just peaked 20k simultaneous users.  It's speculated that a significant portion of new players there are SWG refugees.</span><div></div>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> Get to work Kay.  [Removed for Content] you doing over here.  I thought you were making me some healing potions <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's Tuesday.  WoW is in weekly maintenance, remember?  :smileyvery-happy:

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The latest thing SWG got is not inspiring either =/  I recently started to play EVE Online as well and their server (singular) just peaked 20k simultaneous users.  It's speculated that a significant portion of new players there are SWG refugees.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yeah, I heard SWG got a royal flogging.  I still maintain that a company can screw with the design, the economy and the npc's, but the minute you mess with the character the player identifies with, there goes the neighborhood!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't play EVE.  I'm not really into the sci-fi themes.  I prefer the Tolkien-ish styles myself.  But I think it's great you get another perspective in a different MMO and I highly recommend players that give feedback do that from time to time.  It gives added worth to their experience because they can tell right away what's just ok and what's fantastic or would-be even better somewhere else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wish we could make a topic sometime called 'The Greatest Hits of the MMO Worlds' and have some ingenious dev make a fortune off of it.  That would be really cool and even better then a beta.  In a beta, they pretty much have the outline done and have no interest in re-writing code from scratch again.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

Hey Kalei... I'm not posting on EQ2 issues anymore since I'm officially an EQ2 refugee... What server are you on in WoW?  I play on RPPVP servers -- I have Horde characters on  Emerald Dream: Rorq : Warlock Zanbr: Shaman and Alliance on Lightninghoof: Merq : Warrior Zinq : Warlock Lightninghoof has been online for 3 weeks and is already at capacity... lol

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> </blockquote>The latest thing SWG got is not inspiring either =/  I recently started to play EVE Online as well and their server (singular) just peaked 20k simultaneous users.  It's speculated that a significant portion of new players there are SWG refugees.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Yeah, I heard SWG got a royal flogging.  I still maintain that a company can screw with the design, the economy and the npc's, but the minute you mess with the character the player identifies with, there goes the neighborhood!</div> <div> </div> <div>I don't play EVE.  I'm not really into the sci-fi themes.  I prefer the Tolkien-ish styles myself.  But I think it's great you get another perspective in a different MMO and I highly recommend players that give feedback do that from time to time.  It gives added worth to their experience because they can tell right away what's just ok and what's fantastic or would-be even better somewhere else.</div> <div> </div> <div>I wish we could make a topic sometime called 'The Greatest Hits of the MMO Worlds' and have some ingenious dev make a fortune off of it.  That would be really cool and even better then a beta.  In a beta, they pretty much have the outline done and have no interest in re-writing code from scratch again.</div><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class="date_text">12-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:02 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Eve is a totally different experience.  It can't really be compared at all.  But yea, if you are not into lasers and missiles and spaceships, then no matter how good the game is, it's not going to be good for you.  With that said, Eve is brilliant, but so different.  For one, you don't even have a 3d model for your character, you are in a ship, all the time.  All the action happens in space.  You never set foot on a planet.  All players are on one server, and this allows a player run economy to truly flourish, and it does (whereas here on EQ2 the lack of population causes issues).  Another thing is that there are no "levels" but you gain skill points, which invaribly means you can pilot "suckier" ships to better/different effect, thus bigger is better does not necessarily apply here, again contributing to a more fluid and successful player run economy. Well, I played FFXI for awhile between when I got bored with EQ1 and before EQ2 launched.  While overall the game was not as engaging for me personally, people who read my posts will notice I frequently cite examples of things FFXI did well.  Distinct diverse classes (some ideas of which I've never seen before nor since), flavorful art (on a less than cutting edge PS2 platform), unique looking armor (that people could strive for and looked GOOD), interesting combat (XP chains for killing successive mobs faster and faster provided hours of amusment and gave incentive to play efficiently) and racial differences (ones that mattered and changed even how a class was played simply based on race).  It wasn't a perfect game by any means and is plagued by some of the same problems as EQ2, but it was fun and they did a good job on some key issues and also did some things that other games haven't done. ~ Unfortunately for tradeskillers on EQ2, the code WAS rewritten in Beta, days prior to launch, and has since been a tempest in a teapot inside some dark cabinent opened only rarely by those in power.</span><div></div>

[Kayle]

<P>Hiya Bigmak!</P> <P>We're on Malfurion.  It's a few weeks old and like yours, full capacity already. </P> <P>My impression is:  I'm playing a Human Paladin (Kamira) who is level 42 already and quite self-sufficient.  I've figured out how to get to 300 (max if I'm correct?) in alchemy, herbalism, first aid, fishing and cooking without much trouble at all and with no assistance because I wanted to see just how easy it was.  It is.  Probably too easy.  WoW players complain but to me, after years of this grind, pffft.. piece of cake!  SoE should rip it off and make it a bit more attractive with more things to make and higher levels, but NOT harder to achieve - well maybe just a little, but remember, I have a life already.</P> <P>It's just fun the way it is.  I don't miss my EQ2 provisioner grinding and I'm impressed with Blizzard's design that does not allow for macro'ing tradeskills.  It's pretty impossible.  And you wouldn't want to because after you do the leg work of gathering the materials, you click create and go make dinner.  The program does what the bannable macro here does, for you.  Bye-bye carpal tunnel syndrome - I hated you anyway!</P> <P>I'm also comparing that to a Human Priest soon.  I hear Paladins are way 'over-powered' and due for a nerf soon.  I sure know how to pick them, huh? lol</P> <P>But this experiment follows what I believe is WoW's success.  You have Warrior, Paladin, Hunter, Rogue, Mage and Priest.  They don't understand the word arche-type and neither did EQ1, which I believe is a good thing.  Alliance can't interact with Horde unless it's a fight to the death.  I'm not on a PvP server, but yesterday some horde guy intentionally had his PvP flag opted and decided to stupidly camp for my small flame sacs.  God I love being a Paladin that can make potions that turn her into a god.  I buried that orc hunter face down in the Swamp of Sorrows with his pet's carcass as a grave cover.  He can't say anything to me other then "oooga-booga yuk tu bum", which makes no sense to me of course and cancels out griefing.  Score for me - 1 more honorable kill under her plastic pink belt I really think is horrible-looking! lol</P> <P>Anyway, I do LOVE their reborn EC tunnels trade system.  Imagine what EQ2 could do if they reinvented that here?  All I can say DO IT SoE!  I haven't seen people gather like that to buy, sell and trade since pre-Luclin EQ1.  It's like the United Nations building with representatives from every "nationality" running everywhere.</P> <P>I loved their Winter Veil theme for Christmas.  The snowball fights, the presents, my horse morphing into Rudolph, the mistletoes, the gnome illusions in little santa suits, the cookies and milk quest.. too cute!</P> <P>Gchang is busy changing mobs into sheep.  hmmm.. I gotta try that.  Looks fun!</P> <P>I don't like their lack of bank space at all.  It's frustration and needs work, imo.  EQ2 did a better job there for sure.</P> <P>This is what I'm saying  - some of that should be here.  EQ2 had the original concepts.  Blizzard ripped them off and developed the improved version.  WoW still has dumb-downed graphics however.</P> <P>If SoE took back their ideas, original class-concepts, made some improvements and additions and put them into their polished graphics, I'd look no further.</P> <P>I'm not ready for a full PvP server until I figure out more, but feel free to stop by, make a character there and have some fun!  I should make it over to your side soon enough.  Besides, I loathe the guilds who think they own you just because they have a charter and want to be my mom and claim 'phat lootz'.  Umm.. right.  Some things never do change there, that's for sure.  I wonder if that could be fixed with code too.  Oh well, someday.</P> <P>So, that's my impression so far.  What's yours?  I'd love to hear what you think of their class designs especially, as compared to here if you have any.</P> <P> </P>

[MadisonPark]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>Hey Kalei... I'm not posting on EQ2 issues anymore since I'm officially an EQ2 refugee...<BR><BR>What server are you on in WoW?  <BR><BR>I play on RPPVP servers -- <BR><BR>I have Horde characters on  Emerald Dream:<BR><BR>Rorq : Warlock<BR>Zanbr: Shaman<BR><BR>and Alliance on Lightninghoof:<BR><BR>Merq : Warrior<BR>Zinq : Warlock<BR><BR>Lightninghoof has been online for 3 weeks and is already at capacity... lol<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There are more appropriate places to find out this information, such as PMs. Spare us, please.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited for typo.</DIV><p>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Shutting this thread down as there are numerous personal attacks and troll posts going on here. The initial concern of sticky posts have been addressed. Sticky posts were lost when the forums changed around a bit thus they had to be restickied. Once we were notified of which threads they were, the issue was taken care of.</DIV>