C'Ya

[bigmak20]

I disagree with the fundamental design premise of every subclass being equal in core role and there being no specialization.  Doesn't mean anything is broken really.  We heal ok.  But as long as there's no specialization in the classes there is no role for a dedicated class.  That's true across the board; not just Templar.  Since it's a game wide and fundamental design problem (in my -personal- opinion) I don't see a reason to continue. So.. it was fun. No!  You can't have my stuff!  Dumped to vendor and coin given to guildmates. /wave ((as a cheer goes up from the "we're fine" crowd))

[SatinyCh]

<DIV>Cya bud. Take it easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I now agree that Templars have room for improvement, I still plan to play Reznor and wait out the storm.</DIV>

[BenEm]

<DIV>Take care bro cya in the big one !</DIV>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>I agree with it being fundamentally flawed...and that flaw is the root of every issue they are having now.</P> <P> </P> <P>Be safe Mak.</P> <P> </P> <P> May the road rise up to greet you, and the rain fall softly upon your fields.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nari]

Wait! How will we find you in DDO? <div></div>

[Andu]

<div></div>Not another one gone. <sighs> Everything is fine though, isn't it? Isn't it? I'm sure someone somewhere said so. <looks around> It's getting more lonely in here. Take care mak, hope to bump into you in DDO. Only a month or so now before I leave too. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 PM</span>

[Raistlan]

Are you actually going to leave this time?  I mean, the last 5 times you've kept on coming back.... <div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Farewell to you.</P> <P>Seems so many are leaving, yes. And even those who are staying are playing alts, and even those saying their Templar remains their "main", most of them are saying " ... but I use other classes for soloing or having fun, the templar is just for guild support and raids". It's funny how even Kendricke's "we are ok" thread prove just how we are not "ok" at all, and those are the MOST positive people there are. I'd laugh, but it isn't funny.</P> <P>SoE, are you listening to this? Is this what you want? I really truely do not think it is.</P> <P>I'm going nowhere. I still love EQII the game, for the most part. it has a rich lore, a lovely quest system, and an immersive nature. I don't especially like the lack of positive support for roleplay, however it is still a lovely game to play.</P> <P>But I think the Templar situation since LU13 is an festering sore, and it upset me greatly to put aside my beloved character for a time, but I still believe (perhaps foolishly, but time will tell) that SoE will fix the class again, so it  feels truely playable once again for non-hardcore players.</P> <P>For those not leaving, still I'd advise, not to give up hope. Just play another character when you need to solo or have fun, if Templar is no longer fun, and wait for better times.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar / 60 Sage]<BR>Annaelisa [52 Fury]</P> <P> </P>

[Curati]

<P>I love playing my Templar... I like to think that im good at what I do..I heal people. I only solo in a defensive capacity so I can give a rats tail about my dps. Its a shame about the original poster...hope ya find a game you like.</P> <P>What I would raly like to see is our healing buffed out like crazy. I would even sacrifice Dps for more healing abilities that arent linked on the same recast timer. I am a templar, I have the ability to call down the will of my god to make you all better. Plya on that, expand on that...one day my group was talking that a pure healer type would be cool...have his/her healing abilities be on par with a wizard's nuke but healing of course.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Curative wrote:<BR> <P>I love playing my Templar... I like to think that im good at what I do..I heal people. I only solo in a defensive capacity so I can give a rats tail about my dps. Its a shame about the original poster...hope ya find a game you like.</P> <P>What I would raly like to see is our healing buffed out like crazy. I would even sacrifice Dps for more healing abilities that arent linked on the same recast timer. I am a templar, I have the ability to call down the will of my god to make you all better. Plya on that, expand on that...one day my group was talking that a pure healer type would be cool...have his/her healing abilities be on par with a wizard's nuke but healing of course.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That will not happen. Get over it bro.

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raistlan wrote:Are you actually going to leave this time?  I mean, the last 5 times you've kept on coming back.... <div></div><hr></blockquote><span>:smileywink:</span> Hope you've got something planned for next month Big! </span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

Good luck Bigmak.  You and I...well we aren't even remotely agreeing most of the time but it always saddens me to see a player go.   We'll all be here if/when you come back.

[Gcha]

<P>Yup, I've pulled the plug too.  12/24 is my last day.  Since I've been in EQ since Fall, 1998, this was a tough decision, but EQ2 just doesn't do it for me like EQ did for so long.</P> <P>Similar reasons to bigmak, plus more really. Too many classes, classes are undistinguished and not distinctive, the game and the world are just too linear and mechanical for me ... yada yada yada ... I could go on and on.  The templar issues are just one  part of this.  There are many parts.  Even SWG is a part.  I used to feel I could always go amuse myself some there but with whatever they've done over there that doesn't interest me now in the slightest.</P> <P>Anyway, you guys take care =)  Good hunting !</P>

[BenEm]

<DIV>Take care Gchang ! Gonna ride this out for another 6 month's or so meself . My guild needs my Armoring skills :p I will cya in the big one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kayle]

<P>Take care Big!</P> <P>I'm out too if you remember, as of the 30th.  Cya in WoW with Gchang if you feel like stopping by the Malfurion server.   Send us a PM before we expire and we'll give you the info.</P> <P>GOOD LUCK to you!</P>

[Wildi]

<P>/cheer</P> <P> </P> <P>But I'm sure you'll keep posting anyways.</P> <P> </P> <P>/sigh</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wildill wrote:<div></div> <p>/cheer</p> <p>But I'm sure you'll keep posting anyways.</p> <p>/sigh</p><hr></blockquote>I bet this wouldn't be the first not the last time you are wrong.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wildill wrote:<BR> <P>/cheer</P> <P> </P> <P>But I'm sure you'll keep posting anyways.</P> <P> </P> <P>/sigh</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It happens all the time.  Someone says they're quitting.  They give you a date of the expiration of their account.  Then, they go on to post day in and day out over and over about how much they hate this, that, and/or you.  Sometimes, they keep posting past the expiration date they gave you, or they announce that they've decided to stay (typically for some reason related to "<EM>keeping it real</EM>" or "<EM>sticking it to the developers</EM>").  So long as online gaming exists, you'll see this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ginfress]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wildill wrote:<BR> <P>/cheer</P> <P> </P> <P>But I'm sure you'll keep posting anyways.</P> <P> </P> <P>/sigh</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It happens all the time.  Someone says they're quitting.  They give you a date of the expiration of their account.  Then, they go on to post day in and day out over and over about how much they hate this, that, and/or you.  Sometimes, they keep posting past the expiration date they gave you, or they announce that they've decided to stay (typically for some reason related to "<EM>keeping it real</EM>" or "<EM>sticking it to the developers</EM>").  So long as online gaming exists, you'll see this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>At least you got what you wanted. People leaving who oppose you on the forums. Nice job again Kenny!<p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR>At least you got what your wanted. People leaving who oppose you on the forums. Nice job again Kenny! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's the thing I don't think is understood here.  I don't see it as "opposition", especially toward myself.  I see it as differing viewpoints.  I see it as sometimes disruptive (especially with ad hominems and the like).  I see it as contradictory arguments, at worst filled with fallacy.  Yet, through it all, I don't see it as "opposition".  </P> <P>I have my perspective on the class.  Others either agree or disagree with that perspective.  Most are able to simply argue the points.  Some few however choose instead to argue me personally, and go so far as to attempt to intimidate, threaten, or discredit me personally.  Even then, it's not opposition.  I'm not running for office here.  I'm not asking for a class representative.  </P> <P>To be quite frank, I don't require more recognition.  Arrogant as it may sound, I've got more recognition than any one player should ever hope to have.  Why would I possibly think of you or anyone else here in terms of "opposition"?  Opposition to what?</P> <P>  </P> <P> </P>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR>At least you got what your wanted. People leaving who oppose you on the forums. Nice job again Kenny! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I have my perspective on the class.  Others either agree or disagree with that perspective.  Most are able to simply argue the points.  Some few however choose instead to argue me personally, and go so far as to attempt to intimidate, threaten, or discredit me personally.  Even then, it's not opposition.  I'm not running for office here.  I'm not asking for a class representative.  </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________</P> <P>Kenny you discredit yourself with your arrogance dont blame that on others . Remember the 1st step to correcting a problem is recognizing you have one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <p>Message Edited by BenEmma on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR>At least you got what your wanted. People leaving who oppose you on the forums. Nice job again Kenny! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I have my perspective on the class.  Others either agree or disagree with that perspective.  Most are able to simply argue the points.  Some few however choose instead to argue me personally, and go so far as to attempt to intimidate, threaten, or discredit me personally.  Even then, it's not opposition.  I'm not running for office here.  I'm not asking for a class representative.  </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________</P> <P>Kenny you discredit yourself with your arrogance dont blame that on others . Remember the 1st step to correcting a problem is recognizing you have one <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by BenEmma on <SPAN class=date_text>12-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL, Ben!  I can't wait until he's in here arguing with himself.  ROFL

[Gcha]

One of these days you guys will probably log in and discover he’s accidentally gotten confused and attacked one of his own posts.

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR>Wait! How will we find you in DDO?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL<BR>

[Curati]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> Curative wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>I love playing my Templar... I like to think that im good at what I do..I heal people. I only solo in a defensive capacity so I can give a rats tail about my dps. Its a shame about the original poster...hope ya find a game you like.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>What I would raly like to see is our healing buffed out like crazy. I would even sacrifice Dps for more healing abilities that arent linked on the same recast timer. I am a templar, I have the ability to call down the will of my god to make you all better. Plya on that, expand on that...one day my group was talking that a pure healer type would be cool...have his/her healing abilities be on par with a wizard's nuke but healing of course.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT size=2></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That will not happen. Get over it bro.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LoL I know! Im just saying that I love playing healer role in a group and it would be dandy to have that aspect of our class shine a bit more. the nuke-heal was just me on to much coffee :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raistlan wrote:<BR>Are you actually going to leave this time?  I mean, the last 5 times you've kept on coming back....<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Half of us were thinking it, she just said it.

[Nari]

I guess what most of the people, who make fun of him for saying that he's leaving, choose to ignore is that most of these people really don't want to leave.  When I left this summer, it broke my heart, but I just couldn't enjoy the game with the broken encounters and bugs in heroic opportunities (they were significantly less reliable than they are now.  As a templar, that was where most of my damage came from when I had to solo.) Those bugs directly interfered with several quests that I was doing at the time and made logging in an exercise in frustration. I didn't want to leave, but I didn't want to stay and be upset either. As soon as I heard those things were fixed I came back. People get so upset when things go 'wrong' in this game because it has so much promise. It is even worse to reward the source of your unhappiness by continuing your subscription. When you feel like you have reached an impasse like this and you feel that SOE is not making any effort to help you out, leaving is your only option. People don't want to leave, they want things to be fixed. I guess some have to make a public display to let them know that they have lost your business, etc. So, if you leave because of something like this, will it be because you want to? I think he wants to stay and he is really just wanting SOE to give him a reason to. In a way, I think he is right. I feel like I have put forth a lot of effort to give myself a reason to stay, lately.  Perhaps I have put in more than I should have to for a game that I am paying for, but I am willing to see what happens with my current plan B. <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR>I guess what most of the people, who make fun of him for saying that he's leaving, choose to ignore is that most of these people really don't want to leave.  When I left this summer, it broke my heart, but I just couldn't enjoy the game with the broken encounters and bugs in heroic opportunities (they were significantly less reliable than they are now.  As a templar, that was where most of my damage came from when I had to solo.) Those bugs directly interfered with several quests that I was doing at the time and made logging in an exercise in frustration. I didn't want to leave, but I didn't want to stay and be upset either. As soon as I heard those things were fixed I came back.<BR><BR>People get so upset when things go 'wrong' in this game because it has so much promise. It is even worse to reward the source of your unhappiness by continuing your subscription. When you feel like you have reached an impasse like this and you feel that SOE is not making any effort to help you out, leaving is your only option. People don't want to leave, they want things to be fixed. I guess some have to make a public display to let them know that they have lost your business, etc.<BR><BR>So, if you leave because of something like this, will it be because you want to? I think he wants to stay and he is really just wanting SOE to give him a reason to. In a way, I think he is right. I feel like I have put forth a lot of effort to give myself a reason to stay, lately.  Perhaps I have put in more than I should have to for a game that I am paying for, but I am willing to see what happens with my current plan B.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well exactly. Thats where i am at. I love this game, I just want my class fixed. I figure I will give this until DDO comes out. If Templar is not fixed by then, then I will go play a healer somewhere else.

[Grimhamm]

<P>Ah, DDO.</P> <P>Just a quick reminder that DDO is being developed by Turbine, under Ken Troop.  Turbine's last adventure under Ken's leadership was Asheron's Call 2, a MMO that was launched with high expectations and was finally put to rest a couple months ago.  It was a game with beautiful graphics, but horrible game design.</P> <P>When I see DDO on the store shelves, I will think: If someone vomits, we can use these boxes to cover it up until the guy with the mop shows up.</P> <P>Don't be too quick to jump - give it some time.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Grimhammer on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[Andu]

<P>Well having actually played DDO I am really looking forward to it. At least the Clerics in there feel like Clerics, not straitjacketed healing machines.</P> <DIV>Sure, it's all down to personal taste and EQ2 is miles better in other departments. However, when it comes to classes (this is the class board after all), DDO is great. To be fair, how could it not be when it has 30 years of balancing and fine tuning behind it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And roguey types will love it.</DIV>

[Grimhamm]

<P>Like manure wrapped in pretty paper and shiny bow, AC2 was "great" until you got beyond the first tier of adventuring and discovered the design did not hold up over the long haul.  Ken Troop & Co. was given the Asheron's Call franchise and blew it - so he's demonstrated his particular skill in sucking out the good in something and replacing it with filth.</P> <P>That said, I hope you're right.  I hope the oversight by WotC and an entrenched rule set is something Ken's incompetence cannot overcome.  Nonetheless, I will be tracking reviews and their forums for some time before I go over to DDO.</P> <P>Sony ruined the fun I had with my templar - a year investment arrogantly discarded. And every time I die from a mob that's melted behind a wall and become invulnerable, I ask myself if there's something better than EQ2 out there.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Grimhammer on <span class=date_text>12-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

Hiyas!  Nope not back... but if I did decide to come back it would be the 2nd time not the fifth.  hehe. ... and.  I got no more stuff!  rofl.  Left Borekai in his Skivvies in the Blades tower.  Thinking of a ritualistic suicide before the account goes completey inactive.  I'd have him throw himself off a really tall place ... like Poet's maybe?  Although a tall spire in Qeynos would be better RP imo. So.. a week 'off' from EQ2-dom and Caethre's thread has it's sticky removed in favor of Kens?  Ouch.  Too much flaming from the Furies in Caethre's I'm sure. And no I'm not getting back into the debate so don't go there.  My opinions are well known no need to recite them yet again. Go Caethre!  (oops... ok... a wee little shameless plug for the priestly balance crowd)

[KingOfF00LS]

 <span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div><p>I still love EQII the game, for the most part.</p> <hr></blockquote>I guess I'm luckier than a lot of people here in that I don't really like the game very much.  It's why I don't post much here anymore.  The only time I log in is if my wife wants to play, and thankfully that has been less and less lately.  I'm hoping she agrees to move on completely when Vanguard arrives, but I'm not sure if I can keep playing this game for that long (even for her lol).  I really don't envy those of you who actually like the game though and are hoping it to be set right.  That has to be really discouraging <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<P>Hello my name is CoLDMeTaL, I am an addict.</P> <P>/crowd responds Hi CoLDMeTaL.</P> <P>I am so addicted that even though 5 of my 6 toons, except for the Fury, are [Removed for Content] from the nerf bat of the LU#13 nuke.  I continue to play.  Yes I am SOE's dream, I play for hours because i can't resist.  </P> <P>Not my Weaponsmith, I mean my Templar, because he just can't cut the mustard.</P> <P>The rest has not truly made it to negative fun, yet.</P> <P>And I may use my Templar to tag along on a guild grind of heritge for status points, but he is useless, and I would never take him as only healer unless group was totally ok with dying every so often.</P>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<p>I am so addicted that even though 5 of my 6 toons, except for the Fury, are [Removed for Content] from the nerf bat of the LU#13 nuke.  I continue to play.  Yes I am SOE's dream, I play for hours because i can't resist.  </p><hr></blockquote>See, that's just the thing.  I wanted to be a cleric, and there just aren't clerics in this game.  I have no desire to start over or to be another class.  I want to play a cleric, and if there aren't real clerics in this game then what's the point?  That's why I don't really like the game and don't really "play" it.  It's why I don't miss it, and won't miss it when my wife is ready to move on.  There's nothing to miss, you know?</span><div></div>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KingOfF00LS wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I am so addicted that even though 5 of my 6 toons, except for the Fury, are [Removed for Content] from the nerf bat of the LU#13 nuke.  I continue to play.  Yes I am SOE's dream, I play for hours because i can't resist.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>See, that's just the thing.  I wanted to be a cleric, and there just aren't clerics in this game.  I have no desire to start over or to be another class.  I want to play a cleric, and if there aren't real clerics in this game then what's the point?  That's why I don't really like the game and don't really "play" it.  It's why I don't miss it, and won't miss it when my wife is ready to move on.  There's nothing to miss, you know?<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats what I don't understand. The reason I originally came to the forums is because I loved the game, and I loved my templar. I wanted to learn how to play her better and I thirsted for some type of exposure to the game while i was at work and couldn't play.  Why, if you dont care about the game, would you constantly come to the forums and read about them?

[CoLD MeTaL]

<P>I came to the forums after LU#13 nuke hit, and I was trying to figure out what the heck happened.</P> <P>Since there was ABSOLUTELY no in game indication that this was going to happen, and no ingame information on what all the changes were, and no ingame information on why all my stuff was suddenly altered.  I also lost an adept 3 spell (on my Templar)  because of the respec, my only one, and /petition was useless.</P> <P>Prior to that I think I had been here once or twice in the newb yard.</P> <P>That is when i discovered that so much of what SHOULD be in game is really ONLY put here.</P> <P> </P>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KingOfF00LS wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>See, that's just the thing.  I wanted to be a cleric, and there just aren't clerics in this game.  I have no desire to start over or to be another class.  I want to play a cleric, and if there aren't real clerics in this game then what's the point?  That's why I don't really like the game and don't really "play" it.  It's why I don't miss it, and won't miss it when my wife is ready to move on.  There's nothing to miss, you know?<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It would be a pain to start over, but try a Fury, They Rock!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't what a Templar should be, but they heal better, and nuke better, with great effective debuffs, and I don't feel like I have to make his last name "TheInterrupted" OR "D'Interrupted"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR> <P>I came to the forums after LU#13 nuke hit, and I was trying to figure out what the heck happened.</P> <P>Since there was ABSOLUTELY no in game indication that this was going to happen, and no ingame information on what all the changes were, and no ingame information on why all my stuff was suddenly altered.  I also lost an adept 3 spell (on my Templar)  because of the respec, my only one, and /petition was useless.</P> <P>Prior to that I think I had been here once or twice in the newb yard.</P> <P>That is when i discovered that so much of what SHOULD be in game is really ONLY put here.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was asking the person who said he doesnt care about the game.<BR>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>MadisonPark wrote:Why, if you dont care about the game, would you constantly come to the forums and read about them? <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm going to assume that's a rhetorical statement and not towards me.  Even a cursory search of how often I post would lead one to understand that I come here rarely.</span><div></div>

[MadisonPark]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[Kayle]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:56 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KingOfF00LS wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I am so addicted that even though 5 of my 6 toons, except for the Fury, are [Removed for Content] from the nerf bat of the LU#13 nuke.  I continue to play.  Yes I am SOE's dream, I play for hours because i can't resist. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>See, that's just the thing.  I wanted to be a cleric, and there just aren't clerics in this game.  I have no desire to start over or to be another class.  I want to play a cleric, and if there aren't real clerics in this game then what's the point?  That's why I don't really like the game and don't really "play" it.  It's why I don't miss it, and won't miss it when my wife is ready to move on.  There's nothing to miss, you know?<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats what I don't understand. The reason I originally came to the forums is because I loved the game, and I loved my templar. I wanted to learn how to play her better and I thirsted for some type of exposure to the game while i was at work and couldn't play.  Why, if you dont care about the game, would you constantly come to the forums and read about them? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>People could also ask why you're posting here from work, but that's the sort of personal decision you make that's none of anyone else's business.  The same as why he posts is none of your business.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you start paying for his subscription, THEN tell him what he has a right to do.  Until then, shut up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Kaylena for the win.

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>People could also ask why you're posting here from work, but that's the sort of personal decision you make that's none of anyone else's business.  The same as why he posts is none of your business.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you start paying for his subscription, THEN tell him what he has a right to do.  Until then, shut up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Didn't you quit eq2 and go to WoW?  You don't play a templar or even the same game anymore, so I guess the same question can be directed at you.</P> <P>Please, point me to the part in my post where I told him he had the right to post anything, I was trying to understand his reasoning. Huge difference.  If anyone has the right to post or say anything around here, you definately would not be that person, so kindly take your own advice.<BR></P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>People could also ask why you're posting here from work, but that's the sort of personal decision you make that's none of anyone else's business.  The same as why he posts is none of your business.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you start paying for his subscription, THEN tell him what he has a right to do.  Until then, shut up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Didn't you quit eq2 and go to WoW?  You don't play a templar or even the same game anymore, so I guess the same question can be directed at you.</P> <P>Please, point me to the part in my post where I told him he had the right to post anything, I was trying to understand his reasoning. Huge difference.  If anyone has the right to post or say anything around here, you definately would not be that person, so kindly take your own advice.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wow we went from one to two. It sure is nice that The Condescending Templars are multiplying. You know what, except for guild raid needs I have quit playing my Templar. Guess what, I still want to see it fixed.</P> <P>And if for some reason you think that Templars are not broken, then you are ignorant. PERIOD.</P>

[MadisonPark]

<FONT color=#cc99cc></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>Wow we went from one to two. It sure is nice that The Condescending Templars are multiplying. You know what, except for guild raid needs I have quit playing my Templar. Guess what, I still want to see it fixed.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Kindly explain to me why I should be anything other than condescending to someone who offers nothing to our forums other than the occassional * I want to complain about how much we suck* post.  When they provide a service to the community then perhaps I can pretend as though I respect them.</FONT></P> <P>And if for some reason you think that Templars are not broken, then you are ignorant. PERIOD.</P> <FONT color=#cc99ff>No, just some people have differing definitions of the word broken. You appear to be under the impression that because we heal as well as other classes, yet do not solo as quickly as them, we are broken.   When I played SWG my Teras Kasi Master could join a solo group on Dathomir and get missions designed for a full 20 or so person group. She could not only solo them, but she could solo the whole den of mobs at once. This didn't make my Master Combat Medic/ Master Doctor broken  because she couldn't do the same thing.  Never, in the history of this game has Lairia been able to solo as quickly or easily as a Fury. It wasn't until the increased the healing power of regens did suddenly our DPS even become an issue. They didn't decrease our DPS.  I've said it before, and Ill say it again. We may not be balanced, but we are definately not broken either.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:34 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>the HO dmg nerf is actually nerfed all classes dps...dmg nerf</P> <P>the dmg from our DD+Dot line less dmg than pre-nerf...(oops pre-vamp), dmg nerf</P> <P>the debuff halved and splited to 2 spells ... debuff rating nerf , power cost nerf ...dmg nerf.</P> <DIV>now u say SoE didnt nerf our dps? great :lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and soe said all priest will have dmg boost .... but i only see more nerfs than boost <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>People could also ask why you're posting here from work, but that's the sort of personal decision you make that's none of anyone else's business.  The same as why he posts is none of your business.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you start paying for his subscription, THEN tell him what he has a right to do.  Until then, shut up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Didn't you quit eq2 and go to WoW?  You don't play a templar or even the same game anymore, so I guess the same question can be directed at you.</P> <P>Please, point me to the part in my post where I told him he had the right to post anything, I was trying to understand his reasoning. Huge difference.  If anyone has the right to post or say anything around here, you definately would not be that person, so kindly take your own advice.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You have no idea what characters I play.  I retired ONE 60 Templar.  If you search my posts, you would know what else I have.  In fact, I have FIVE priests total - that's a majority of the healing class I would say.  And as long as I have an account, I have every right to post.  You don't pay for it, so you have no right telling me what to do, do you?</P> <P>I love when people like you have nothing other to say to people who refuse to play broken classes other than, get out.  Because that's exactly what you are doing.  If SoE had any brains, they'd ban people like you instead of people like Bigmak, because people like YOU are going to be their downfall.  If you think you're doing them any favors questioning people (as if you have that right) about being here and inadvertently trying to get rid of them, you've done the exact opposite and it's going to affect their employment in the end.  Mark my words.  It'll happen and you'll be the part of the reason.</P> <P>Posts like yours help Blizzard.  Posts like mine help SoE build a better game.  I know what I'm talking about because I took the time to compare.  You didn't.  Big difference!  HUGE difference!  I have all the priest classes.  Now I compare those to what other games have and I'm competent enough to know why they have 5 million subscribers and SoE does not.  I was helping SoE by discussing those differences, but people like YOU wouldn't see that.  Because you're too into your "my little forum has to be protected from the evil naysayers" mindset.</P> <P>Wake the hell up and start realizing that people don't post a detailed comparison (of which I've seen nothing from YOU) of various games, including EQ1 because they have nothing better to do.  We know what works.  We were giving them HELP.  What are you doing?  Nothing but complaining about complainers.</P> <P>It's just too easy to call you out.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>12-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:59 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 PM</span>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote: <P>You have no idea what characters I play.  I retired ONE 60 Templar.  If you search my posts, you would know what else I have.  In fact, I have FIVE priests total - that's a majority of the healing class I would say. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take care Big!</P> <P>I'm out too if you remember, as of the 30th.  Cya in WoW with Gchang if you feel like stopping by the Malfurion server.   Send us a PM before we expire and we'll give you the info.</P> <P>GOOD LUCK to you!</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You keep putting words in my mouth, saying I said you don't have the right to post. I never said that, I don't even think that. I wonder your motiviation to it is all. And I don't care how many characters you have, deny that you said you quit and went to WoW.<BR><BR>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote: <P>You have no idea what characters I play.  I retired ONE 60 Templar.  If you search my posts, you would know what else I have.  In fact, I have FIVE priests total - that's a majority of the healing class I would say. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take care Big!</P> <P>I'm out too if you remember, as of the 30th.  Cya in WoW with Gchang if you feel like stopping by the Malfurion server.   Send us a PM before we expire and we'll give you the info.</P> <P>GOOD LUCK to you!</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You keep putting words in my mouth, saying I said you don't have the right to post. I never said that, I don't even think that. I wonder your motiviation to it is all. And I don't care how many characters you have, deny that you said you quit and went to WoW.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I quit playing my Templar.  I still have an account.  I even still have my 4 EQ1 accounts and a SoE All Access Account.  If they lose me, they lose a lot of money every month.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not putting any words in your mouth.  Seems to me that at least one other person read what you wrote deriving the same meaning I did, Cowendicus.  And you're doing it again now.  You're implying that if I don't play my Templar, why am I here?  Did you even think that possibly I have other characters to tend to?  Including comparing them to the ones I now have in WoW and I'm in a beta too.. big woop.  But it shows I at least try to post what is working out there and what is not for developers to read.  They scratch their heads and ask what are we doing wrong.  We come in and tell them because we're seeing it firsthand.  We're long-time gamers.  EQ1 dinosaurs as you call them and have no use for.  But our experience counts for something and I'll be damned if people like you say otherwise.  I know these games, especially the priest class or I wouldn't be here discussing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get annoyed to all hell when I read someone question a valid paying player as to why he is posting here and I'm going to continue to get annoyed if I read this again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS:  I shouldn't say this but, what the hell.. When you cancel, they give you a free 21 days when you come back and give them another try.  Which they practically didn't stop doing until I accepted.  Try it and you'll find out it's true.  They GAVE me a free month to come back.  Looks like someone doesn't want to see me leave, other then you of course.  LOL</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>12-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>MadisonPark wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Kaylena wrote: <p>You have no idea what characters I play.  I retired ONE 60 Templar.  If you search my posts, you would know what else I have.  In fact, I have FIVE priests total - that's a majority of the healing class I would say. </p> <hr> </blockquote>You keep putting words in my mouth, saying I said you don't have the right to post. I never said that, I don't even think that. I wonder your motiviation to it is all. And I don't care how many characters you have, deny that you said you quit and went to WoW. <hr></blockquote></span><span>Hmm, seems to me you are wrong, this is YOUR text "</span><i>If anyone has the right to post or say anything around here, you definately would not be that person, so kindly take your own advice.</i>" To me that sounds like you are directly saying that Kaylena has no right to post. Then again, you seem to think that not anyone has the right to post. Well you are partially right, those who are not paying for EQ2, have no right to post. But also you are NOT the one to decide who has the right and who doesn't. <div></div>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote: <P>You have no idea what characters I play.  I retired ONE 60 Templar.  If you search my posts, you would know what else I have.  In fact, I have FIVE priests total - that's a majority of the healing class I would say. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You keep putting words in my mouth, saying I said you don't have the right to post. I never said that, I don't even think that. I wonder your motiviation to it is all. And I don't care how many characters you have, deny that you said you quit and went to WoW.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN><SPAN>Hmm, seems to me you are wrong, this is YOUR text "</SPAN><I>If anyone has the right to post or say anything around here, you definately would not be that person, so kindly take your own advice.</I>"<BR><BR>To me that sounds like you are directly saying that Kaylena has no right to post. Then again, you seem to think that not anyone has the right to post. Well you are partially right, those who are not paying for EQ2, have no right to post. But also you are NOT the one to decide who has the right and who doesn't. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Don't forget right after that she said, "<FONT color=#9933cc>You keep putting words in my mouth, saying I said you don't have the right to post. I never said that, I don't even think that. I wonder your motiviation to it is all. And I don't care how many characters you have, deny that you said you quit and went to WoW</FONT>."<BR></P> <P>There, I even put it in pretty purple for her so she can read what she wrote better.  Gotta love the way they try to put people on the defensive by asking about WoW, when I never even brought it up.  It was brought up originally to try to show SoE what they do that appeals to players that SoE does not or could stand improving upon.  She uses it to throw in people's faces.  And she wonders what MY motivation is?  Where is her constructive input?  Anywhere?</P> <P>That was a good discussion where WoW was brought up.  But yet again, it was locked citing flame wars.  When is SoE going to get it?  The flame wars are instigated by people who don't want this game to succeed.  If SoE thinks for one second we come in here to layout an analysis, without pay, for haha's, get a clue.  No company should be that insecure to lock threads where substantial discussions are taking place where people who have been here the longest are telling them straight up what they see.  Let the thread ride out.  People will wind up working it out or leaving each other alone.  They always do.</P> <P>If Gallenite can go post on FoH forums where they rip into him unmercifully, obviously he demonstrates that he, as producer, can handle constructive and destructive criticism like water off a duck.  And if the producer can handle it and puts himself in the midst of that, fanbois ought to back off, because you're ruining any progress to be made of it.</P> <P>Here's another clue.  Scott isn't posting and answering just EQ fans.  He puts himself in the midst of all gamers so he gets a good understanding of what's out there and what appeals to the masses, not just the niche fanbois.  He already has them, for life.  Poor guy.  The sad truth is the fanbois are enough to kill any game and drive even the most hardened subscriber away from it because they refuse to be objective in any analysis and mock even the slightest voice of dissatisfaction.  Crazed fans don't help, they trample over everyone else and drown out whomever they come in contact with and that's what she was doing and has been doing.  I just finally said something about it because I'm about fed up reading it and no one doing anything about it.  And my replies stand because she denied it right after she did it again!<BR></P> <P>I can see moderating posts that say SoE sucks, don't buy the game, blah blah blah.  NO ONE in this forum said that and they don't deserve the "I'm telling Mommy" immaturity I'm sick to say I've witnessed here.  If people like Madison Park and her buddy Kendricke truly cared about this game, they wouldn't be constantly advising people to leave it and Raijinn would do good to heed that advice because I'm sure Scott knows it already.</P>

[Timaarit]

Well Kend is running a successful campaing on making people quit EQ2. I doubt I had cancelled my account if he wasn't posting here. But his posts ahowed me that there is no hope for getting templars improved exept bt random chance with future expansions. And that means that what happened to templars, can and will happen to some other class in the future. I really don't want to be involved in that kind of environment. <div></div>

[Nari]

<div></div>Looks like Kaylena is still spanking you -with your own words no less.  Thanks for the morning entertainment ladies, it is almost worth the subscription. <div></div><p>Message Edited by 3devious on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 AM</span>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>Bunnies are pretty.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by nullcodehere on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:48 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by nullcodehere on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:49 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR> Looks like Kaylena is still spanking you -with your own words no less.  Thanks for the morning entertainment ladies, it is almost worth the subscription.<BR> <P>Message Edited by 3devious on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Shhhhh....if you let people know you are watching their drama, they become self conscious.

[Nari]

<span>Oops...  That thing in the corner is a potted plant, not a camera, really... </span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV>Neither is that wall clock, or that little dot on the cookie jar.   Also ignore the lens sticking out of my enormous orange foam cowboy hat. </DIV>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Well Kend is running a successful campaing on making people quit EQ2. I doubt I had cancelled my account if he wasn't posting here. But his posts ahowed me that there is no hope for getting templars improved exept bt random chance with future expansions. And that means that what happened to templars, can and will happen to some other class in the future. I really don't want to be involved in that kind of environment.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know I've been on the same side of this debate as you from the start, but didn't and still do not accept that one person expressing illogical, factually untrue, out-of-line and in places downright ludicrous viewpoints is either that influencial or that important. The fact he may claim to be is irrelevant, that is just part of the bluster.</P> <P>SoE are a commercial company, and I believe they set things up the way they do through genuinely believing (at the time they do it) that what they are doing is right. If it were me running the show, I'd make different decisions, yes, but I'd still make the ones I thought were right for the good of the game, and sometimes I would not get it right, or I would have to make changes, and there will always be a need for more changes / balancing throughout the lifetime of this or any other game. I would have to forever listen to "but we need to be stronger" feedback from all corners, and temper any potential changes with the knowledge that there will always be a section of every community wanting more than, frankly, they "deserve", or that their situation warrants. It takes time, investigation and assessment, as well as amount of feedback, to properly be able to sort wheat from chaff.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That said, right now, we both know that priest class balance at the moment is way off base. The Templar class is close to unplayable when compared to the Fury and Warden classes especially. Putting them side by side, if one didn't have a character now and was starting one from scratch, but did have all the facts to hand, and actually wanted to level and play the character through content, only a complete fool would choose a Templar from those three. This is pretty much beyond any debate for those who actually understand game mechanics, game play and a range of playstyles in any depth. SoE simply have not looked at this yet from the player's perspective, or have at least, not said that they have, and the imbalance continues to be staggering.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This is why I re-rolled as a Fury. The fact that I would leave a character I loved just sitting idle, because I cannot bear to be so relatively weak and feel like a burden to friends to such an extent, is pretty much a definition of "broken".</FONT></P> <P>The fact that one person (and it is ONE person, with a few "cronies" who back up all he says) insist on posting thousands of times saying otherwise, and trying to demean the rest of us reporting what we can plainly see, day in and day out, means nothing. It does hurt the rest of us trying to put the facts over, as from SoE's perspective, they can't know he is talking nonsense until they investigate, but the fact that it is not all the same view being posted back, means that investigation is less "urgent" than dealing with issues that are more uniformly agreed upon. Unfortunately, the only real way to put the opinion of someone like him in context, is for 100 other people to all post as much as him, to make his voice what it should be - individually insignificant. However, not everyone has the time to post the thousands of times he does. So, his weight seems more. But again, Raijinn and the devs are not daft, they can seperate views from postcounts, once this fact is pointed out (and that is why I point it out so much, and will keep doing so).</P> <P>Yes, I can see people quitting all over, and people getting despondent, and giving up. This is likely to continue and keep on being the case. The only thing the rest of us, those of us who still love the game, can do is keep on telling SoE the situation for the real players, and eventually the message will get through.</P> <P>Until then, some will cancel (sadly I know a few who have quit from LU13 class-balance changes first hand), and others like me will continue to enjoy EQII as other character classes. If they start nerfing others to be equally un-enjoyable, well then eventually they might drive us away too, but hopefully that won't happen, because again, they don't want to drive people away, they want to make a game that is fun, I mean, if I were a dev, my greatest desire would be to make a fun game! Of course, we all find slightly different things fun, but you know what I mean.</P> <P>So, really all I wanted to say is, don't get too hung up on one person. He may think he matters, but he really doesn't half as much as he thinks he does.</P> <P>Now a little story for you. I came back from my Xmas break, and logged in the other night as my Templar, sitting in her room, browsing the broker. I thought (for only the second time ever), hey, I'll join the serverwide Templar channel. I tend not to like such places, but what the heck, why not for a little while, I can lurk. But I was called AFK for real-life reason, and came back about 30 minutes later. I looked in that text window, to see several pages of text. And you know what? 75% of it was ONE PERSON, going on and on about his theory of x y and z, and why person A and person B on the boards were "wrong", etc etc etc. It seemed to me, others in channel looked barely interested. I bet you can guess who that person was. I laughed, didn't bother to reply, and used /leavechannel without a word. No point letting one person affect you that way, I'd suggest.</P> <P>Either way, as long as there are those of us here, putting across common sense and a balanced picture of how things really are for normal players, sometime, someday, the Templar class will get fixed.</P> <P>Until then, the Fury class is wonderful, and I feel strong, powerful and effective in Norrath, and able to do all the things I could before as a Templar, and much much more. What's more, it is FUN! I know, like Templar used to be, sigh, but someday, maybe will be again. That is what I fervently hope.</P> <P>Felishanna [54 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [54 Fury]</P>

[SenorPhrog]

Caethre that is by far the best post I've ever seen from you.   I'll just leave it at that so I don't make it seem a) like I'm patronizing or b) like I don't recognize our sparring in the past.   Thank you for not using the word "broken" anywhere in there though.

[ginfress]

Well said Caethre!!! And at one point actually quite funny too, matter of fact someone came upstairs wondering why i was laughing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:23 PM</span>

[thomasza]

<P>Thanks so much Caethre for speaking up like this, i think its what most templars on the board are thinking. </P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe i should log the serverwide templar channel and print it every now and then for some comic relief while not playing  :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>I just trio'd Mudeef 65^^^ with a Zerker and Wizard, fight lasted about 3 or 4 mins with the tank being hit anywhere from 1k to 2k.</P> <P>Healing was comfortable and easy, tank was yellow or green didnt go orange once and I ended the fight on 75M.</P> <P> </P> <P>If we were broken and actually couldnt heal a thing, would this have been possible?</P>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Now a little story for you. I came back from my Xmas break, and logged in the other night as my Templar, sitting in her room, browsing the broker. I thought (for only the second time ever), hey, I'll join the serverwide Templar channel. I tend not to like such places, but what the heck, why not for a little while, I can lurk. But I was called AFK for real-life reason, and came back about 30 minutes later. I looked in that text window, to see several pages of text. And you know what? 75% of it was ONE PERSON, going on and on about his theory of x y and z, and why person A and person B on the boards were "wrong", etc etc etc. It seemed to me, others in channel looked barely interested. I bet you can guess who that person was. I laughed, didn't bother to reply, and used /leavechannel without a word. No point letting one person affect you that way, I'd suggest.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Felishanna [54 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [54 Fury]</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LoL...funny stuff.  Probably because he hasn't been fairing so well on the boards lately, what with folks answering his diatribes with basic, simple logic he can no longer refute.  I wonder why he feels he has to be in his servers Templar channel defending his position(s), if they are so right?  Of course, the only problem with that whole scenario is that brand new Templars (may the Gods bless them with the patience of a Saint) who happen to log into that channel are going to think that all high level Templars are pompous @sses...when most of us just want a game where we can kick back and have fun playing.</P> <P>Keep fighting the good fight, those of you who are aware of the current Templar issues...<BR></P>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>wow...cause a fury could have solo healed that group too...the point is not healing.</DIV>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <DIV>the point is not healing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But it is. </DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Wow gratz wtg yes nice one !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You completely missed the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys make it out like templars are broken and we are the worst healers, so yes if a Templar can heal it then by your statements then all 5 should be able to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that a Templar can solo heal in a trio that isnt killing a llv 65^^^ that quickly and the tank is taking high dmg means we arent broken and we are perfectly capable of healing.</DIV>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <DIV>the point is not healing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But it is.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>so DPS is really about healing? Funny I thought DPS meant Damange per second? am I wrong?</DIV>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow gratz wtg yes nice one !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You completely missed the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys make it out like templars are broken and <STRONG>we are the worst healers</STRONG>, so yes if a Templar can heal it then by your statements then all 5 should be able to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that a Templar can solo heal in a trio that isnt killing a llv 65^^^ that quickly and the tank is taking high dmg means we arent broken and we are perfectly capable of healing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>WHO SAID WE WERE THE WORST HEALERS!?! We said furies can heal close to us and have a DPS advantage over us. How does that equate we are the worse healers. We also said druids can solo heal groups that they couldn't before without the help of a templar but that now has changed, yet you get we are the worse healer out of it?...All we are asking for is an edge not that we can't solo heal a group but more DPS to solo with...get over this we are complaining about healing...<BR>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>so DPS is really about healing? Funny I thought DPS meant Damange per second? am I wrong?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We are not a dps class, so having low DPS does not make us broken.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>so DPS is really about healing? Funny I thought DPS meant Damange per second? am I wrong?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We are not a dps class, so having low DPS does not make us broken.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The inability to solo effectively is what makes us brokes especially as half of the quests in the new expansion are solo quests.

[Xerxess]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>so DPS is really about healing? Funny I thought DPS meant Damange per second? am I wrong?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We are not a dps class, so having low DPS does not make us broken.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And Furies were suppose to be an offensive priest. Low healing but high DPS and we were the defensive priest with low DPS and high healing. Now Furies get a boost to their heals to be on par with our heals, thus giving them the chance to main healers in groups but if they get a boost in healing and maintain their DPS well why can't we get a boost in DPS and maintain our heals?</DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>so DPS is really about healing? Funny I thought DPS meant Damange per second? am I wrong?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We are not a dps class, so having low DPS does not make us broken.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree. This is a common fallacy that is bandied about these boards. We can heal - yes. But "broken", on this board, at this moment, means "sub-par." We are not par. Thus, we are "broken." I understand your logic. We can still do our "job." So what? Where is my dps ++? </P> <P>Of course, I woiuld prefer my old Templar healing/buff adavntage back aye? But here I am lobbying for something I really dont even want to be "par" again. Bah - dps, mez, etc....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>We are not a dps class, so having low DPS does not make us broken.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lairia,</P> <P>You have implied this a few times, this time you actually said it, so I will address it directly. This logic is totally and absolutely false.</P> <P>You are correct, we are not a "DPS class" (in the way, say, mages or scouts, are). We are a priest class. Tell me, who here is comparing us in DPS to such classes? I'll answer for you - noone is. We are only comparing ourselves to other priest classes.</P> <P>All these priest classes are "not DPS classes". They are healers. And they all heal equally well since LU13/15 went live. Yes, some say we heal a bit worse, some say a bit better, opinions vary, but what is abundantly clear is this - IT IS CLOSE, whichever way it is. So having been made equal on those points, what is left? All that matters is DPS, solo power, group contribution OTHER THAN HEALING. And in these regards, we are subpar compared to druids. Not by 10% or 20%, no .... by up to 200%.</P> <P>Answers like "but Furies always did more DPS" are bogus, because Furies did not always ALSO heal as well as Templars, this fact is obvious unless you wish to stick your head in the sand, the evidence for the current state being equal healing and 1/3-1/2 DPS is undeniable.</P> <P>I've given you the definition of "broken" before that I use. "Broken" does not have to mean "incapable of performing our primary role", although I would accept that were that true, a class would indeed be "broken". Clearly we Templars can still carry out our primary role - has a single person said otherwise?</P> <P>But one or two people cannot dictate the meaning of the word "broken" to the rest of us. Templars are a one trick pony, always have been. If you want to invite a Templar to a group, it is for one reason - to heal. A Templar makes no other meaningful contribution to a normal group of 2-6 players relative to other priest classes except healing.</P> <P>I put it to you like this. I have templar and fury. I will not log in my templar as things stand, for adventuring, because it makes me unhappy to solo at 1/3 the speed and to slow down all my groups and make them earn less XP and loot than they would if i joined the exact same groups with my Fury instead. Sorry, anything else is lies ... those are the FACTS ... Templars "suck" compared to Furies in normal groups at the moment, so badly that to choose Templar over Fury would be ludicrous.</P> <P>As I have said before, if the situation is so bad, that I'd level from scratch a Fury to 54, so that I can play her solo at 2-3 times the speed and play her in groups and actually contribute healing AND MORE, and so not be a leech, and that is not the definition of a "broken" class, what the heck is? Indeed, I am staggered that there is even one person who cannot see such logic is plainly obviously true. Only those people who ONLY raid or simply do not care about anyone who ever operates in solo and small group settings can ever argue that such a massive imbalance is "unimportant".</P> <P>That remains my definition, anyway. I consider Templar "broken" for those reasons, and friends aside, if I were playing a non-priest alt, I would never (I mean NEVER) invite a Templar to any group I am in if I can get any other priest class, because I see no point in having someone leech XP if I can get someone who can actually contribute to the kill rate as well as heal the group.</P> <P>That is the reality of the game of EverQuest II.</P> <DIV>The Templar class will remain <EM>relatively</EM> inviable in the casual-playstyle arena until this situation is addressed and corrected. To my mind, it is far more important than addressing relatively minor bug issues on certain spells. As always, your mileage may vary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RedFeather]

The only cool idea to increasing the fun factor in Templars I've seen is to increase their DPS to that of an Inquisitor through giving them some combat arts. Templars aren't long range casters. Why have low DPS long range spells?It would certainly raise their solo-play and group potential 'fun factor'.The distinction between Inquisitor and Templar shouldn't be about better defense versus DPS, it should be about one cleric subclass being mind focused, the other body focused.In the end neither cleric subclass should do more damage than their low mitigation Fury cousins. But clerics are melee encounter priests, and I feel that Templars would be a lot more enjoyable if their playstyle reflected that.If it's possible to balance the game even though some fighters and scouts use spells, why can't a melee range priest use combat arts?The more I think about that, the more it really does make sense.<p>Message Edited by RedFeather1975 on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR>We can heal - yes. But "broken", on this board, at this moment, means "sub-par." We are not par. Thus, we are "broken." I understand your logic. We can still do our "job." So what? Where is my dps ++? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By this logic, any priest below "par" is broken?  So all non-Fury priests are broken?</P> <P>...or would you care to elaborate on what part of your statements I'm apparantly misunderstanding if that is not the case.  What do you consider "par"?</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[StevusX]

<P>Someones STILL avoiding the ACTUAL point made i see...........</P> <P> </P>

[Icarii_Raven`Lyon]

<DIV>Ima tell a little story.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back on 11/11/04, I picked up a new game from best buy called eq2. I said yay, more eq and promptly rolled a wood elf druid to compare to my eq1 druid which I love. 1 month later, im playing my lil 20 odd fury, and saying well, this isnt what I expected. I cant heal as well as Id like, and my stupid lion form wont sit, long story short, im not having fun. The next day, I sat down with my prima guide and researched every class in the game. After much researching, I said hey, that dirge looks like a lot of fun. 12 months and a lot of changes later, Im loving my dirge. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, true, this doesnt have a lot to do with templars specifically, and as Ive mentioned a few other times, my templar isnt very high level yet, but the point is (and id like to mention that I am not telling anyone to quit, change classes or anything else they may take offensively), If youre not having fun with your class, give something else a try, you may find that the class you hated in eq1 or various other mmos you love in this one. I would also say give it time. The games been out a lil over a year, and theyre still constantly changing it. I doubt everything will stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the constant bickering here, in my personal opinion, youre only hurting yourself. As you can tell, other classes read these boards.  I cant speak for everyone, but when I am trying to put together a group, I never look at the healers lfg and say hmm, ima pick that fury over this templar because their single target nukes do more damage. Hell, I rarely have a choice when trying to put together a group, since there are rarely a lot of healers lfg at all. As far as my comment with only hurting yourself, other classes may come looking at the forums, knowing not a whole lot about templars themselves, and say "Hey, with all this fighting between templars, maybe I dotn want one in my group. Maybe ill go pick up that Fury there, since even templars seem to think theyre better than they are." Again, though, this is assuming theres even a choice in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not gonna broach the subject of soloing as I dont have 30 upset templars yelling at me that I dont play a templar so I dunno what Im talking about, but I would like to mention that Im just glad that any class can solo, even if not effectively, cause really, crappy xp is better than none at all. Again, not saying stuff doesnt need to be tweaked ( I mean really, name a single class that doesnt need atleast a little tweaking), Im just saying yay for something to work with at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, cut Lairia a little slack. You all are coming down on her merely because she has a differing opinion, because, really, all of you who just flamed her on the last page or so, how many of you would have if she was saying the same thing as you? The only reason she posts at all is because she is one of the few people I know who really, truely love the cleric class (be it in muds, swg, eq2 or whatever).   She just doesnt understand why people would post when they dont care about the class (for the record, not saying this is the case, but if they dont care, why take the time to even make a post). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, Im done now heh.  </DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR>We can heal - yes. But "broken", on this board, at this moment, means "sub-par." We are not par. Thus, we are "broken." I understand your logic. We can still do our "job." So what? Where is my dps ++? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By this logic, any priest below "par" is broken?  So all non-Fury priests are broken?</P> <P>...or would you care to elaborate on what part of your statements I'm apparantly misunderstanding if that is not the case.  What do you consider "par"?</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>A surprise, Kendricke misunderstanding the obvious.

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Icarii_Raven`Lyon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ima tell a little story.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back on 11/11/04, I picked up a new game from best buy called eq2. I said yay, more eq and promptly rolled a wood elf druid to compare to my eq1 druid which I love. 1 month later, im playing my lil 20 odd fury, and saying well, this isnt what I expected. I cant heal as well as Id like, and my stupid lion form wont sit, long story short, im not having fun. The next day, I sat down with my prima guide and researched every class in the game. After much researching, I said hey, that dirge looks like a lot of fun. 12 months and a lot of changes later, Im loving my dirge. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, true, this doesnt have a lot to do with templars specifically, and as Ive mentioned a few other times, my templar isnt very high level yet, but the point is (and id like to mention that I am not telling anyone to quit, change classes or anything else they may take offensively), If youre not having fun with your class, give something else a try, you may find that the class you hated in eq1 or various other mmos you love in this one. I would also say give it time. The games been out a lil over a year, and theyre still constantly changing it. I doubt everything will stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the constant bickering here, in my personal opinion, youre only hurting yourself. As you can tell, other classes read these boards.  I cant speak for everyone, but when I am trying to put together a group, I never look at the healers lfg and say hmm, ima pick that fury over this templar because their single target nukes do more damage. Hell, I rarely have a choice when trying to put together a group, since there are rarely a lot of healers lfg at all. As far as my comment with only hurting yourself, other classes may come looking at the forums, knowing not a whole lot about templars themselves, and say "Hey, with all this fighting between templars, maybe I dotn want one in my group. Maybe ill go pick up that Fury there, since even templars seem to think theyre better than they are." Again, though, this is assuming theres even a choice in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not gonna broach the subject of soloing as I dont have 30 upset templars yelling at me that I dont play a templar so I dunno what Im talking about, but I would like to mention that Im just glad that any class can solo, even if not effectively, cause really, crappy xp is better than none at all. Again, not saying stuff doesnt need to be tweaked ( I mean really, name a single class that doesnt need atleast a little tweaking), Im just saying yay for something to work with at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, cut Lairia a little slack. You all are coming down on her merely because she has a differing opinion, because, really, all of you who just flamed her on the last page or so, how many of you would have if she was saying the same thing as you? The only reason she posts at all is because she is one of the few people I know who really, truely love the cleric class (be it in muds, swg, eq2 or whatever).   She just doesnt understand why people would post when they dont care about the class (for the record, not saying this is the case, but if they dont care, why take the time to even make a post). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, Im done now heh.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Almost but no. Had she told people that they shouldnt post no matter what her opinions are I would place her in the Lord Kenny column. </P> <P>That being said, I am glad you are having fun with your dirge. Some of us are not having fun with our main characters. That is the point.</P>

[Icarii_Raven`Lyon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Almost but no. Had she told people that they shouldnt post no matter what her opinions are I would place her in the Lord Kenny column. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That being said, I am glad you are having fun with your dirge. Some of us are not having fun with our main characters. That is the point.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand the point completely.  My point, though, at the risk of getting flamed, is why not try something different? Even if its only while you wait for your class to get fixed/adjusted/whatever. I personally never thought id like a scout, let alone a bard, but after trying it, found its great. Id like to stress, btw, that I am not telling anyone that they need to do it or move on, it just seems to me sort of futile to continue playing a class that you dont enjoy.  At the same time though (thinking about it), I did switch while my fury was 20 something. Imagine itd be sorta hard to start over at 60. So well, i dunno what to say. At the risk of sounding pitying, I just feel sorry for everyone who put tons of work into their main to end up not enjoying it down the road. If I was at that point id be sorta upset and disgruntled. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moral of the story? Go remake as a mage, according to someone on the dirge boards, they can solo white ^^^'s  (<-- teasing for the record)</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Icarii_Raven`Lyon wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Almost but no. Had she told people that they shouldnt post no matter what her opinions are I would place her in the Lord Kenny column. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That being said, I am glad you are having fun with your dirge. Some of us are not having fun with our main characters. That is the point.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand the point completely.  My point, though, at the risk of getting flamed, is why not try something different? Even if its only while you wait for your class to get fixed/adjusted/whatever. I personally never thought id like a scout, let alone a bard, but after trying it, found its great. Id like to stress, btw, that I am not telling anyone that they need to do it or move on, it just seems to me sort of futile to continue playing a class that you dont enjoy.  At the same time though (thinking about it), I did switch while my fury was 20 something. Imagine itd be sorta hard to start over at 60. So well, i dunno what to say. At the risk of sounding pitying, I just feel sorry for everyone who put tons of work into their main to end up not enjoying it down the road. If I was at that point id be sorta upset and disgruntled. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moral of the story? Go remake as a mage, according to someone on the dirge boards, they can solo white ^^^'s  (<-- teasing for the record)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Note to op, not a flame.</P> <P>Look at my signature. Templar, Warlock Fury.</P>

[faldorian viva]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Icarii_Raven`Lyon wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Almost but no. Had she told people that they shouldnt post no matter what her opinions are I would place her in the Lord Kenny column. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That being said, I am glad you are having fun with your dirge. Some of us are not having fun with our main characters. That is the point.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand the point completely.  My point, though, at the risk of getting flamed, is why not try something different? Even if its only while you wait for your class to get fixed/adjusted/whatever. I personally never thought id like a scout, let alone a bard, but after trying it, found its great. Id like to stress, btw, that I am not telling anyone that they need to do it or move on, it just seems to me sort of futile to continue playing a class that you dont enjoy.  At the same time though (thinking about it), I did switch while my fury was 20 something. Imagine itd be sorta hard to start over at 60. So well, i dunno what to say. At the risk of sounding pitying, I just feel sorry for everyone who put tons of work into their main to end up not enjoying it down the road. If I was at that point id be sorta upset and disgruntled. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moral of the story? Go remake as a mage, according to someone on the dirge boards, they can solo white ^^^'s  (<-- teasing for the record)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very simple answer why i don't make another class.</P> <P>I can heal groups well. I can do good things on raid. I am not complaining about either one of those. The problem most templars have with the class lies in the fact that they do no damage hardly at all. I have my 51 and 59 nuke at adept 3... even when killing a undead i can't make the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spells go more then 400-500 damage (x2). </P> <P>When i do solo it takes to long.  Does this mean i am dissatisfied with the templar? No, far from it. However it does mean that i am very much not happy with the solo ability of the templar.</P> <P>As stated by SOE, some classes solo better then other classes. Other classes shine in AoE fights... and so every class has strong and weak points. I can't imagine however that the mobs that are slain by the average class within 5 minutes should take over 15 minutes for me to kill. In my opinion something isn't balanced right then.</P> <P>This is my main issue with the class. I have stated it in the stickied templar thread, tried to post a new idea about it (which wasn't new) and that's about it. I am hoping i can do solo writs one day actually solo in about the same time as other classes do it. I would like to see me able to kill mobs in half the time it takes me now to kill them. </P> <P>Hell i'd even settle for SOE to try out a few ideas on templars and see them removed later.. as long as something is being done, i hate not knowing what to expect. I hate not being able to do effective soloing with my templar. I hate to be left in the dark by SOE about these issues. </P> <P>Is it so hard for them to say, hey guys you can talk about it on the boards all you want but it won't change or we are trying out a few things or whatever? If they do that people can either move on or people know what to wait for.</P> <P>Hopefully we will hear or see some results soon because i am sure as hell not giving up on my templar.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR>We can heal - yes. But "broken", on this board, at this moment, means "sub-par." We are not par. Thus, we are "broken." I understand your logic. We can still do our "job." So what? Where is my dps ++? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By this logic, any priest below "par" is broken?  So all non-Fury priests are broken?</P> <P>...or would you care to elaborate on what part of your statements I'm apparantly misunderstanding if that is not the case.  What do you consider "par"?</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are kidding right? After all the times you have attempted to roast me with below the belt accusations, and a tone that is more befitting a three-year old, you are going to pull this line with me? Are you a grifter boyo? Is that your deal?</P> <P>Wow.</P> <P>Kendricke, just ignore the fact that I even post here. Like I TRY to do you after your last tirade. Thanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates. AT<14Days</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<P>So we'll put this up there with the famous "/shrug" response?  Seriously, it's a legitimate question.  You feel that Templars are below par.  What's par?  Are Furies par?  If so, doesn't that mean all other priests are below par?</P> <P> </P>

[RedFeather]

I'd have to say the priest median is the shaman subclasses (conceptual-wise). <BR>I'm not familiar with Mystics, so I don't know how well their concept has been implemented.  <p>Message Edited by RedFeather1975 on <span class=date_text>12-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Icarii_Raven`Lyon]

<DIV>After playing all 3 a bit, I would have to say my favorite is shaman wards.  I mean, how can you beat the person not taking damage, and then if theres any left it turning into a heal. Id say secondary being reactives, though on my lil cleric in order to not waste the reactive id have to wait til she was at like 40 or 50%, which is a bit later than id like to start healing. I honestly cant speak for furies at all, as Ive only played mine once since lu13, and she was about 5 or 6 levels lower than the templar, so ended up not doing any healing. The templar, however, did a great job healing =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit cause i cant type</DIV><p>Message Edited by Icarii_Raven`Lyon on <span class=date_text>12-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 PM</span>

[RedFeather]

<P>This gonna start praising Defilers now. Cuz I really dig em.<BR>I think their wards are going to be so useful in PvP. <BR>Plus they fear. That's really cool.<BR>Dang, now I can't decide what my PvP character will be.</P> <P>I have Inquisitor, Defiler, Dirge. Which one should I pick?</P> <P>Edit: It just dawned on me that the above three subclasses can all use 'fear'. Maybe it's because I'm not very big that I want instill fear in my enemies?! :smileysurprised:</P><p>Message Edited by RedFeather1975 on <span class=date_text>12-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:20 PM</span>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>We are not a dps class, so having low DPS does not make us broken.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lairia,</P> <P>You have implied this a few times, this time you actually said it, so I will address it directly. This logic is totally and absolutely false.</P> <P>You are correct, we are not a "DPS class" (in the way, say, mages or scouts, are). We are a priest class. Tell me, who here is comparing us in DPS to such classes? I'll answer for you - noone is. We are only comparing ourselves to <STRIKE>other priest classes. </STRIKE>Fury's.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fixed.  :smileyvery-happy:  </P> <P>I thought it was funny....  </P> <P>/shuffles back into the corner.</P>

[Icarii_Raven`Lyon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedFeather1975 wrote:<BR> <P>This gonna start praising Shamans now. Cuz I really dig em.<BR>I think their wards are going to be so useful in PvP. <BR>Plus they either root or fear, depending on where you live. That's really cool.<BR>Dang, now I can't decide what my PvP character will be.</P> <P>I have Inquisitor, Defiler, Dirge. Which one should I pick?</P> <P>Edit: It just dawned on me that the above three subclasses can all use 'fear'. Maybe it's because I'm not very big that I want instill fear in my enemies?! :smileysurprised:</P> <P>Message Edited by RedFeather1975 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Haha. I did actually beat Lairia in a duel once though. Course I made her take off her armor and not cast any spells, but I did it! For the record though, I was 53 and she was 58 =)</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>well, yes, Templar isnt a dps class, but so does Fury. why we got their 1/3 dps?</P> <P>Priests, isnt only heal. get over it. unless SoE change the name to Healer. then get rid all the non-heal spells. =)</P>

[Simondu]

<P>While I enjoy my lvl 54 Templar in groups, small raids and mentoring lower lvl guildies, I too would like to do more of the solo content SOE has promised I should be able to do......=/</P> <P>I have no problems with other classes having more this, less that, and do not want those classes adjusted to match my abilities..however, by upgrading spells, gear, stragety etc. I have been able to climb a little higher in the solo content arena to approx. 60% of the content....(based on completion of lvl 6 of the "Training Arena" quest in Maj'Dul)...</P> <P>I will not re-roll another character just to complete solo content cause I have played a Cleric since early EQ1..I do so much enjoy playing my Templar....</P> <P>I simply want SOE to make it possible for me to solo those quests they offer me in game.....</P> <P>So Par means to me...having the tools necessary to complete more than 60% of the solo content.....=)</P> <P> </P> <P>Simondu</P> <P>Lvl 54 Templar</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR>We can heal - yes. But "broken", on this board, at this moment, means "sub-par." We are not par. Thus, we are "broken." I understand your logic. We can still do our "job." So what? Where is my dps ++? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By this logic, any priest below "par" is broken?  So all non-Fury priests are broken?</P> <P>...or would you care to elaborate on what part of your statements I'm apparantly misunderstanding if that is not the case.  What do you consider "par"?</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-29-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:01 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are kidding right? After all the times you have attempted to roast me with below the belt accusations, and a tone that is more befitting a three-year old, you are going to pull this line with me? Are you a grifter boyo? Is that your deal?</P> <P>Wow.</P> <P>Kendricke, just ignore the fact that I even post here. Like I TRY to do you after your last tirade. Thanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates. AT<14Days</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Takeo, I can see your point.   I hate the word "broken" because I work with PC's and when I call something "broken" it usually crashes during boot-up, or is covered in asphalt (don't ask).  I will agree our DPS is below average (which I think is a better word)  in comparison to Fury, Defiler, etc...  I will also agree our utility is also below average even though this can be debated</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS isn't the end all for everything although it wouldn't hurt to toss just a little tiny bit at us. </DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedFeather1975 wrote:<BR>I'd have to say the priest median is the shaman subclasses. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would have to agree - though I think of it more in terms of a conceptual median than a actual one. Mystic AoE damage isnt much greater than ours Ad1, but they do have DoTs, which got thumped LU#13. In my opinion, they could use a bump too.</P> <P> </P> <P>I believe I have said it before. These issues, i.e., mit vs avoid tankers, intra/inter class dps, hps and power ratios, healing/power/time, etc., are all coming to the fore more because of the keen desire of SoE to have some sort of true balance among the sub-classes. I honestly believe their intent goes beyond that into total class balance. At the early levels, all of the archtypes are well balanced. It disappears later. But they are still pushing. The healers are just what we key on here.</P> <P>As a suggestion, I made a point based class directory for healers. With base 10, each healer class gets to spend their points in dps or healing. Now dps could be O-buffs(haste, +int, etc.), raw melee, or spell damage. Healing could be D-buffs(miti, avoid, hp+,etc.), or raw healing. Here is an example, for the sake of flames and argument:</P> <P>Priest 1 - 10 : 5/5 (5 O/5 D)</P> <P>Cleric 11-19 : 4/6</P> <P>Shaman 11-19: 5/5 </P> <P>Druid 11-19: 6/4</P> <P>Templar 20-60: 3/7 (more healing/D-buff based)</P> <P>Inquisitor 20-60: 4/6(decent healing, but the offensive cleric)</P> <P>Mystic/Defiler 20-60: 5/5(both well-rounded even healers)</P> <P>Fury 20-60: 7/3 (solid dps, but short on the heals)</P> <P>Warden 20-60 : 6/4 (decent healing, but still an offensive class)</P> <P> </P> <P>Now if the break-down doesnt work for all the classes based on the opinions of the players themselves, the devs could always start a thread asking the players. They could give them 10 points, and ask them where they want them. And although its very rough, and I disagree with the idea of class balance in any shape or form, I think this would work with a bit of fine-tuning. The problem is the foundation here. A little demolition, the right plans, and somebody that knows how to use a transit, a line and a shovel might just get it done.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates. AT<13Days</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <span class=date_text>12-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedFeather1975 wrote:<BR>I'd have to say the priest median is the shaman subclasses. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would have to agree - though I think of it more in terms of a conceptual median than a actual one. Mystic AoE damage isnt much greater than ours Ad1, but they do have DoTs, which got thumped LU#13. In my opinion, they could use a bump too.</P> <P> </P> <P>I believe I have said it before. These issues, i.e., mit vs avoid tankers, intra/inter class dps, hps and power ratios, healing/power/time, etc., are all coming to the fore more because of the keen desire of SoE to have some sort of true balance among the sub-classes. I honestly believe their intent goes beyond that into total class balance. At the early levels, all of the archtypes are well balanced. It disappears later. But they are still pushing. The healers are just what we key on here.</P> <P>As a suggestion, I made a point based class directory for healers. With base 10, each healer class gets to spend their points in dps or healing. Now dps could be O-buffs(haste, +int, etc.), raw melee, or spell damage. Healing could be D-buffs(miti, avoid, hp+,etc.), or raw healing. Here is an example, for the sake of flames and argument:</P> <P>Priest 1 - 10 : 5/5 (5 O/5 D)</P> <P>Cleric 11-19 : 4/6</P> <P>Shaman 11-19: 5/5 </P> <P>Druid 11-19: 6/4</P> <P>Templar 20-60: 3/7 (more healing/D-buff based)</P> <P>Inquisitor 20-60: 4/6(decent healing, but the offensive cleric)</P> <P>Mystic/Defiler 20-60: 5/5(both well-rounded even healers)</P> <P>Fury 20-60: 7/3 (solid dps, but short on the heals)</P> <P>Warden 20-60 : 6/4 (decent healing, but still an offensive class)</P> <P> </P> <P>Now if the break-down doesnt work for all the classes based on the opinions of the players themselves, the devs could always start a thread asking the players. They could give them 10 points, and ask them where they want them. And although its very rough, and I disagree with the idea of class balance in any shape or form, I think this would work with a bit of fine-tuning. The problem is the foundation here. A little demolition, the right plans, and somebody that knows how to use a transit, a line and a shovel might just get it done.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates. AT<13Days</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If something like this were only true.

[rollando]

<P>The players seem to have decided by themselves if the class is broken or not.</P> <P>Pre CU, templars were, by far, the most common healers.</P> <P>Here is the census of the 20-40 priests on Runnyeye, 0 h 20 GMT on Runnyeye :</P> <P>  Furies : 33</P> <P>Templars : 18</P> <P> Inquisitors : 11<BR><BR>Mystics : 7<BR><BR>Wardens : 5<BR><BR>Defilers : 5</P> <P> </P>

[RedFeather]

Subclasses should always be worth playing. Number crunching and formula making to try and attain balance doesn't seem to be working, as there are many factors about what makes a class worthwhile to play that can't be put into numbers.<BR><BR>Eventually it will be made clear to the developers what classes aren't working as intended (ie: worth playing EQ2 with).

[kenji]

ya, this game isnt based on balance, its based on the class concept.

[RedFeather]

<P>Ideally the best way to create balance is to offer the player the ability to do anything another player does, at anytime in your characters life.<BR>Whether this be by just completing the quest, applying for specifc in-game training or sacrificing whatever the desired ability requires you to sacrifice.</P> <P>You should not have to start over again to acquire what you see later on as being more interesting and rewarding.<BR>Unfortunately EQ2's game system does not support this type of freedom. It would require building an entirely new game to implement such a system.</P> <P>Hopefully, further down the road, the 'virtual worlds' offered to us will show more freedom in who we choose our character to become.</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>They should allow is to be more diverse with AA so those of us who want to be a pure healer can go a pure healing AA route and get as close to that as we want, all Priest types should be able to do that but it should be an option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So a different priest could go a damage AA patch for example, or a buffing path I guess a debuff patch could be done but it maybe hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe have 2 paths to go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You either specialise through AA as a healer buff or a debuffer nuker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the specialisations should make you much more different, so there should be quite a gap between a healer Templar and a Nuker Templar for example.</DIV>

[Beerserker]

Kindricke do you work for caster realm?

[Xatrart]

<P>I think the funniest part of this whole mess SOE created is that everyone still remembers that LU13 is the mother of all FUBARS.  People are STILL complaining about the Templar destroying update and yet SOE has still done nothing about it.  Instead of fixing bugs and such they are coming out with yet another expansion. </P> <P> </P> <P>The only way to make them fix the problem is to cancel your account and not buy their crap but then there are always those persons that just cant take the needle out of the arm.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Xatrartiz on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xatrartiz wrote:<BR> <P>Instead of fixing bugs and such they are coming out with yet another expansion. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1.  Those who fix bugs on live are not those working on the second expansion team.  In fact, according to a letter written a full year ago by John Smedley, this expansion was already in the works in January of last year by a completely separate team.  Before there was a third Live Update, a team was already working on Kingdom of Sky. </P> <P>2. They are fixing bugs.  Have you seen the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176" target=_blank>Holy Books of Templar</A>?  Out of 12 listed bugs, 7 have been corrected.  What "bugs" are they not fixing regarding Templars?  If you have any, I'd be happy to list them and hopefully get them some visibility. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Xatrart]

Xatrartiz wrote:<BR> <P>Instead of fixing bugs and such they are coming out with yet another expansion. </P> <HR> <P>1.  Those who fix bugs on live are not those working on the second expansion team.  In fact, according to a letter written a full year ago by John Smedley, this expansion was already in the works in January of last year by a completely separate team.  Before there was a third Live Update, a team was already working on Kingdom of Sky. </P> <P>2. They are fixing bugs.  Have you seen the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Holy Books of Templar</FONT></A>?  Out of 12 listed bugs, 7 have been corrected.  What "bugs" are they not fixing regarding Templars?  If you have any, I'd be happy to list them and hopefully get them some visibility. </P> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) No matter who does what...the company as a whole controlls what the GOALS are for the company.  The main goal I see coming out of SOE is "bottom line".  SOE does not have any interest in fixing the issues since they are spending the majority of their time dreaming up new ways of exploiting money out of beta type software.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) Yes I read your post...the main thing missing for me is give me back the way it was.  The Templar of old was not broken and worked perfectly fine.  What the hell is wrong with throwing a good reactive on a tank and letting the reactive keep them alive while you do some single heals?  In all honesty...I am frustrated with SOE because they turned the EQ1 Enchantor into a complete buff tank and worthless for anything else and now they screw my Templar.  The only fix for me is to make the class what THEY said it would be.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do not see logic in this then there is nothing I can say that will make since to you.  SOE does not care...period...they are out to make a buck and they feel the best way to do that is to slow on exp generated and to force out some classes.  They have done both.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>Well, you're free to feel as you wish.  I can't argue feelings or even really opinions.  I can only argue fact, of which you've presented me very little to work with.</P> <P>Safe travels, and may you find that which you seek.</P> <P> </P>

[Asp728]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xatrartiz wrote:<BR>Xatrartiz wrote:<BR> <P>Instead of fixing bugs and such they are coming out with yet another expansion. </P> <HR> <P>1.  Those who fix bugs on live are not those working on the second expansion team.  In fact, according to a letter written a full year ago by John Smedley, this expansion was already in the works in January of last year by a completely separate team.  Before there was a third Live Update, a team was already working on Kingdom of Sky. </P> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) No matter who does what...the company as a whole controlls what the GOALS are for the company.  The main goal I see coming out of SOE is "bottom line".  SOE does not have any interest in fixing the issues since they are spending the majority of their time dreaming up new ways of exploiting money out of beta type software.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Every successful company has teams for different aspects.  It would not be logical at all for a company to put all its resources into one task - it would fail.  And to be honest, what private company is not out for the almighty dollar?  The team that is doing the expansion more than likely has nothing to do with fixing the currect issues.  They have their own task they are working on.  Take any company structure and you will see how they are broken down.  It is the same for Corporations, LLCs, partnerships, etc.  - all companies have the same internal workings.  Larger companies have subsidaries or divisions to do seperate tasks that are merged with the overall task. </P> <P>I agree that the current issues need to all be addressed, but to assume that everyone in the entire company should be working on one thing alone is ludicrous.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asp728 wrote:<BR>I agree that the current issues need to all be addressed, but to assume that everyone in the entire company should be working on one thing alone is ludicrous.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree.  It's like blaming Moorgard because my Sony Camcorder doesn't work right.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Xatrart]

<HR> Xatrartiz wrote:<BR>Xatrartiz wrote:<BR> <P>Instead of fixing bugs and such they are coming out with yet another expansion. </P> <HR> <P>1.  Those who fix bugs on live are not those working on the second expansion team.  In fact, according to a letter written a full year ago by John Smedley, this expansion was already in the works in January of last year by a completely separate team.  Before there was a third Live Update, a team was already working on Kingdom of Sky. </P> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) No matter who does what...the company as a whole controlls what the GOALS are for the company.  The main goal I see coming out of SOE is "bottom line".  SOE does not have any interest in fixing the issues since they are spending the majority of their time dreaming up new ways of exploiting money out of beta type software.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Every successful company has teams for different aspects.  It would not be logical at all for a company to put all its resources into one task - it would fail.  And to be honest, what private company is not out for the almighty dollar?  The team that is doing the expansion more than likely has nothing to do with fixing the currect issues.  They have their own task they are working on.  Take any company structure and you will see how they are broken down.  It is the same for Corporations, LLCs, partnerships, etc.  - all companies have the same internal workings.  Larger companies have subsidaries or divisions to do seperate tasks that are merged with the overall task. </P> <P>I agree that the current issues need to all be addressed, but to assume that everyone in the entire company should be working on one thing alone is ludicrous.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Okay I will clarify my post for those in the back row....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I work for a software development company and I totally understand that you have to generate money however if I was to sale a bank a piece of software that was buggy and took away functionalities from that said bank...then turn around 2 months later and tell them that I am not going to fix the old bugs but create time developing a new software that they have to buy to proceed functioning they would tell me to take a jump of the nearest cliff and take their business somewhere else.  You can develop and fix bugs in the equal amount of time and I strongly feel over the last 6 + years I have been playing SOE games they continue to focus on releasing under developed software so that they can create a black line instead of a red one at the expense, money wise and mental wise, of the customer, which by the way is you and I.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Asp728]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xatrartiz wrote:<BR> <HR> Xatrartiz wrote:<BR>Xatrartiz wrote:<BR> <P>Instead of fixing bugs and such they are coming out with yet another expansion. </P> <HR> <P>1.  Those who fix bugs on live are not those working on the second expansion team.  In fact, according to a letter written a full year ago by John Smedley, this expansion was already in the works in January of last year by a completely separate team.  Before there was a third Live Update, a team was already working on Kingdom of Sky. </P> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) No matter who does what...the company as a whole controlls what the GOALS are for the company.  The main goal I see coming out of SOE is "bottom line".  SOE does not have any interest in fixing the issues since they are spending the majority of their time dreaming up new ways of exploiting money out of beta type software.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Every successful company has teams for different aspects.  It would not be logical at all for a company to put all its resources into one task - it would fail.  And to be honest, what private company is not out for the almighty dollar?  The team that is doing the expansion more than likely has nothing to do with fixing the currect issues.  They have their own task they are working on.  Take any company structure and you will see how they are broken down.  It is the same for Corporations, LLCs, partnerships, etc.  - all companies have the same internal workings.  Larger companies have subsidaries or divisions to do seperate tasks that are merged with the overall task. </P> <P>I agree that the current issues need to all be addressed, but to assume that everyone in the entire company should be working on one thing alone is ludicrous.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________________</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Okay I will clarify my post for those in the back row....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I work for a software development company and I totally understand that you have to generate money however if I was to sale a bank a piece of software that was buggy and took away functionalities from that said bank...then turn around 2 months later and tell them that I am not going to fix the old bugs but create time developing a new software that they have to buy to proceed functioning they would tell me to take a jump of the nearest cliff and take their business somewhere else.  You can develop and fix bugs in the equal amount of time and I strongly feel over the last 6 + years I have been playing SOE games they continue to focus on releasing under developed software so that they can create a black line instead of a red one at the expense, money wise and mental wise, of the customer, which by the way is you and I.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I like the little back row comment.   Didn't see a need for a little jab like that, but whatever.</P> <P>The thing about your senerio is that it doesn't follow what we were discussing.  All I stated was that there were different teams on different projects.  And actually, what you said happens.  I work for  a very, very large "corporation" and you can't possibly imagine how many buggy software applications we have.  Do the respective companies fix them?  Nope.  They make new version and don't fix the old.  And we buy it.  I'm talking millions of dollars worth of software.  So as dumb as iit sounded, your scenerio is not far from being right.  In the same sense, take cars for example.  How many cars have you seen being recalled or years after they are released people find problems with them?  Does this mean they stop production on all other cars just to fix the one with issues?  Nope.  The designers still design, the builders still build and there are people that work on the recalled ones.  Will this stop people from buying that dealers cars?  Nope.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Since I was sitting in the back row, you might not have heard me so i'll say the main point of my previous post again.</P> <P>I agree that the current issues need to all be addressed, but to assume that everyone in the entire company should be working on one thing alone is ludicrous.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>*edit - to remove where I worked <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Asp728 on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>I'm glad that your company feels that way about its products.  However, this is apples and oranges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What this really comes down to isn't that SOE isn't fixing bugs.  They're not fixing the bugs you personally want fixed.  Therefore, you're understandably upset.  You want <EM>your</EM> issues resolved and until <EM>your</EM> issues are resolved, nothing else really will matter.  When I pressed you for specific issues you have that I could list, you even stated that your real issue is that you don't like the combat revamp.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's not a bug.  That's a change in service.  Services change all the time.  You can choose to either adapt to the change and accept it; attempt to find ways that the change can be made better and then contact the service provider to hopefully enact change; or you can cease paying for the service.  It's really that simple.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're not talking about banking software here.  We're discussing entertainment.  Business clients can't just walk away from the software they use without incurring some form of cost - typically significant cost.  If a developer changes business software, customers have to invest in that change.  How do I know?  Because in another life, I'm a project manager for a technology development firm tending to customers (both private and public, large and small - even some of the largest government contracts in my industry).  We can't just fire off changes willy nilly without readjusting contracts and working with client technology departments.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, SOE's under no such obligation.  Read your EULA.  It's their software on their servers.  You simply pay to access it.  You don't own any part of the game.  You own the media upon which the game is placed, and even then, you only own that if you purchase a retail version.  If AOL sends me a copy of their service client, I don't suddenly own a chunk of Time Warner/AOL.  I don't even own that service client code on my PC.  The same goes for your Everquest 2 DVD.  You own the media, but not the code.  It's their code.  They can change it as they see fit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're not happy with that, then go elsewhere.  It's a buyer's market.  There's dozens of games on the market right now and dozens more coming out within the next year.  You aren't bound and obligated to deal with any one company, are you?  Of course not.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changes are going to occur.  It's not a business application and none of us had to physically sign a sales agreement in order to boot it up.  It's a service of immediacy, like most entertainment.  If you're not happy with a movie, walk out.  If you're not happy with the cable channels you're paying for, stop paying for them.  If you're less than thrilled with Netflix or Tivo, cancel your payment plan.  If you don't like Everquest 2, try something different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, to say that they have to fix every bug you personally find wrong before they can bring forth an expansion?  That's just your subjective view.  Some of us are actually happy as is and are looking forward to more content to explore.  So what if the graphical icons aren't working on my Guild Window to show a member made level 57 - it'll get fixed when it gets fixed.  I can log in.  I can play ...on nearly 20 characters actually... so the game's far from "broken", at least as I see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're free to disagree.  I just don't understand why you'd continue to hold on to the idea that the game was broken after update 13 if you're still playing nearly 4 months after the fact.    That's not entertainment.  That's just addiction.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the game's not fun for you, then either adapt your playstyle, change your guild, change your server, change your class, or change your game.  I can't see how this becomes so complicated.  If you're not having fun with your entertainment, then change <EM>something</EM> till your entertainment becomes fun.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nari]

I guess this is where we go around and around, Kendricke.  Some templars are bitter because they were having more fun before.  OK, maybe the templar issue isn't that important (don't hit me Caethre and Kaylena, I can run faster scared than you two can mad anyday,) but there is one that you can't argue it is a bug and it is important... can we say <i>Collision</i>? That is an admitted bug and we've seen new content and no significant fix. Sure, Sony has stated that they have several teams working on several things, but I am sure you have heard the saying: "The most carefully laid battleplan changes as soon as you engage the enemy." I've been in a situation where I can compare red apples to granny smith apples here. Anyone who knows anything about how large dynamic game projects with insane deadlines work, knows that they are all scrambling and things aren't working exactly as they said they would be. You can get indignant that I don't believe it on the occasions when certain individuals come to the forums and tell us that yes there are in fact various teams for this that and the other thing.  Did they say that developers aren't on multiple teams?  No, they didn't say that.  You could have 5 developers and 3 teams.  Just because community managers and game designers tell you the sky is green, that does not make it so. I know you want to believe them.  I want to believe in aliens, too. I don't mean any of this in a mean way, it just boggles my mind that some people are willing to accept Sony's statements blindly.  I am not saying believe what I am telling you, but just think about the situation.  Think for yourselves. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

Tradeskillers have been seeking answers for much longer than any class.  We are an entire BRANCH of classes who have been neglected since launch. Recently, we were told that tradeskill fixes and content would be added in "future patches and expansions" but no timeline could be given because they are "ramping up for the expansion." This suggests they had to pull people off the tradeskill team to work on the next expansion. Thanks, SoE. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><BR>Recently, we were told that tradeskill fixes and content would be added in "future patches and expansions" but no timeline could be given because they are "ramping up for the expansion." <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was hoping to respond to this, but find that I'm unable to find any such quotes from any developer being made anytime over the past several months.  Could you perhaps point a link to the specific recent post where this was stated?  Could you at least tell me which developer said this?  I honestly can't find the link, and I'm sure I'm just overlooking something.<BR></P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=77682&view=by_date_ascending&page=2 <blockquote><hr>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:Ok folks there's just a lot of bickering back and forth here that's really not something that I'd like to see continue. I can understand the frustration from not getting communication one way or another and I did try to stop in here and at least check on things for you. I really don't want to say much as well frankly things change in a timeline especially as we're ramping up for the expansion. What does that mean to you, it means I wouldn't be surprized if there was content for everyone in future updates and expansions but then again I can't make you a 100% promise when or what will happen. Again things change through a timeline especially with MMO games but rest assured our goal is to get content out for all players, this includes all tradskillers, and yes even you all here. <span>:smileyvery-happy: *IF* I hear something that I can mention on the forums I'll be sure to pass it along to you all. Thank you for understanding. </span><hr></blockquote>This is the same quote that I put in another thread which I believe you read, Ken.  Anyway, the way I read it is this... "I know that it's frustrating not to get any communication, so I will just tell you that we have no idea when we can fix anything because we are busy with the expansion.  And hey, it's an MMO, timelines change, so get used to it.  Anyway, if we ever have any idea what's going on, we'll let you know.  Until then, too bad!"</span> <span><span></span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<blockquote>Well, you're free to feel as you wish.  I can't argue feelings or even really opinions.  I can only argue fact, of which you've presented me very little to work with.<blockquote><hr></blockquote>Well your problem is that you 'argue' facts with either silence or feelings. If you need proof for it, just look at your own message history.</span><div></div></blockquote></blockquote>

[Xatrart]

<div></div>Okay....since I get attacked on many fronts I want to pose a simple question...especially to Ken...what about the pre-LU13 was so wrong with the Templar class?

[Nari]

Nothing, Xatrartiz.  The problem (and I don't really see it as a problem) was that some crafty players figured out how to use templars' abilities to make tanks nigh invincible in raids against supposed difficult targets.  These players weren't using exploits, just a pretty good understanding of how the game worked.  This information eventually was spread everywhere and it no longer took craftiness and/or experience to raid so successfully, anyone who could read could turn their tanks into siege engines.So for someone like me, who raids once in a blue moon and never got to witness such a spectacle, I never saw anything wrong with it. I still don't, really.  It seems as if the class is being slapped for the creativity of a few and the lack of vision of the development team.  That happens a lot in these games, not just EQ2.<div></div>

[Sokolov]

I would say there were 2 seperate "nerfs" to Templars in the combat update.First, we have the problem 3devious mentions.  So many classes had stackable buffs which buffed the same stats that creative use of these buffs was allowing players to defeat encounters they should not have been doing so.  Part of the consequence of the update was that many spell lines had their secondary effects removed and their stackability "fixed."Second, relatively speaking, Templars were easily the best healers before the update.  Two of the six healer subclasses were totally broken.  Another two were decent, but not considered main healers.  The remaining one was considered a lesser Templar.  So non-Templars had been waiting since launch to have some semblance of balance. So, from the prespective of the Templar, they have been nerfed twice over.From my Defiler's prespective, I was glad I could <i><b>finally even play</b></i> the class I had chosen when the game was launched.<div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Xatrartiz wrote:<div></div>Okay....since I get attacked on many fronts I want to pose a simple question...especially to Ken...what about the pre-LU13 was so wrong with the Templar class?<hr></blockquote>Attacked on so many fronts?  You've been involved in like 4 threads around here.   You've hardly been assaulted.  I'd be glad to show you where people around her have shoved.....actually thats better not talked about.What was wrong with pre-LU13 Templars?   I'm glad you asked.As the Developers stated because of the way our reactives stacked, it provided Templars the ability to make tanks (and themselves) nearly invinvicible for a period of time.   This caused them to have to create tailored content for high level players offsetting these abilities (and not just raid content).   I saw a great example of this the other night.   If you head to Nek Castle for the second portion of it, you'll notice that some of those 51 and 52 heroics are harder than some of the 58 or 59 heroics in Pillar of Flame.  Just because it was fun for people doesn't mean it was best for the game as a whole.Let...LU#13....go.  It's done.  It's over.  It's not coming back.   We can move on and try get things changed or we can rehash the same crap we've been talking about for 3 months now.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><p>It wasn't just raids, and it wasn't just craftiness.  I remember being called out to the Feerrott or to Cazic-Thule to essentially go AFK just so a Guardian could use our buffs to handle yellow and orange heroic groups solo without any danger or fear of ...well, of anything!</p><p>In addition, I think we were so incredibly better at healing than other priests that there were often times that supposedly "equal" druids and shaman were effectively locked out of most groups.  In my opinion, not too terribly much changed after the revamp for Templars (certainly not compared to most classes).  We lost a STR debuff.  We gained a few different spells.  Healing across the board (not just for Templars) was changed.  We were cut down on direct heal lines.  Overall though, I still play pretty much how I did prior to the revamp with the exception of situations where I might use control spells.  I cast reactives on pull, reactives during the fight, and cast direct heals between to make sure the fighter stays standing.   I might use other spells from time to time, but in a general, everyday group, that's basically what I do now...and it's pretty much what I did before the revamp as well.</p><p>However, the revamp wasn't about Templars.  It was about game balance in-general and across the board.  Templars were THE healer in a game where all healers were supposed to be able to perform a basic function.  Simply put, most healers could not perform as healers in a full group going against typical content.  They could do great as back-up healers, or situationally, but in general Templars were the only healer capable of being solo healer in most situations.  Early crude polls indicated that as much as 60% or more of all priests were Templars previous to the revamp. </p><p>That's not balance.  It's not even close.  What we have now is close.  Sure, some spells need to be tweaked or adjusted, and obviously personal opinions on what constitutes "balance" is going to vary from person to person, but the class is far from broken and it's far from unplayable.  Templars are still the most popular class, some four months after the revamp, but at least now it's not with the absolute domination that once existed.  Other priest classes are seen as viable now, for different reasons.  One specific class is seen as the new pinnacle (and one I feel will likely be "nerfed" because of it). </p><p>Overall though, the Templar class didn't change all the much in my opinion.  Other classes did.  This leads to what I believe is a perceived "reverse nerf", wherein Templars feel we're weaker because other classes are now stronger. </p><p>However, as I stated, your opinion on this will likely vary.</p><p> </p>

[Xatrart]

<div></div><p>I read the post and you gave me the information I wanted and knew you would say.  So I will simply put yours and the other poster who doesnt have a templar as my ammo.</p><p> </p><p>The Templar/Inquisitor was created by SOE to be the MAIN healing class for EQ2.  They said it themselves:  The Cleric is the main healing class and is essential to a group or raiding force.  This is how SOE built the class but since it made leveling etc easier and caused people to not play once they hit 50, SOE decided to change up the class and make it harder to level hence enlarge their wallets in the end. </p><p> </p><p>You can argue all you want but you made it very clear that the Templar was not broekn but that it made things easier for players and I still would like to know what is so wrong with that?  For other classes that heal, druid etc, their complaing caused many the change to the Templar class and many of those players have quit.  Templars have been nerfed...you can agree or continue down your blind path and disagree but it is a simple fact. </p><p> </p><p>Also, I will not let LU13 go.  SOE created a class that I liked from the beginning but chose in their lack of wisdom to destroy it.  Seems everything they touch turns to crap in the end.  EQ is on its last leg, SW is now just rediculous, Matrix Online is worhless and EQ2 is on its way.  Have you ever figured out why most people play WoW?  It may not be the most eye popping game but it is the most balanced and fun game out there today.  I do not support WoW or support people moving to it...I just think it is very ironic....</p>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Xatrartiz wrote:<div></div><p>Have you ever figured out why most people play WoW?  It may not be the most eye popping game but it is the most balanced and fun game out there today.  I do not support WoW or support people moving to it...I just think it is very ironic....</p><hr></blockquote><p>Of course it's balanced, just ask any shadow priest. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class="date_text">01-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:36 AM</span></p>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>Xatrartiz wrote:<div></div><p>Also, I will not let LU13 go.  SOE created a class that I liked from the beginning but chose in their lack of wisdom to destroy it.  Seems everything they touch turns to crap in the end.  EQ is on its last leg, SW is now just rediculous, Matrix Online is worhless and EQ2 is on its way.  Have you ever figured out why most people play WoW?  It may not be the most eye popping game but it is the most balanced and fun game out there today.  I do not support WoW or support people moving to it...I just think it is very ironic....</p><hr></blockquote>See I took your seriously until about right here.   You're an angry player whose gotten jaded from multiple SOE products.   It doesn't help your arguement. I fail to see the fallacy in trying to improve Templars versus lamenting their demise but maybe I'm just feeling all productive today.   Hopefully there are some changes in the future that will improve your fun factor though.</span><div></div>

[Nari]

*snort*Radar, do you work in customer service?<div></div>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Of course it's balanced, just ask any shadow priest. </p><hr></blockquote>Hmm?  My priest isn't really high enough up there to really be considered a "shadow priest." What's wrong with it?</span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:*snort*Radar, do you work in customer service?<div></div><hr></blockquote>By customer service do you mean people asking "Why is my PC not working" or "Why can't I get a new printer" all day?I actually spent a year as a call coach in a large callcenter.   In addition to training over 60 people I took all those "Let me talk to your supervisor" calls.  *shudder*  Good times...now if you'll excuse me I'm going to get into the fetal position and sing the "Crying Game" song.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Of course it's balanced, just ask any shadow priest. </p><hr></blockquote>Hmm?  My priest isn't really high enough up there to really be considered a "shadow priest." What's wrong with it?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Nothing's wrong with it.  It's the flavor of the month over at World of Warcraft - a class that's able to solo well, participate in groups well, and still dominate most PVP.</p><p> </p>

[kenji]

<div>Kendricke : I remember being called out to the Feerrott or to Cazic-Thule to essentially go AFK just so a Guardian could use our buffs to handle yellow and orange heroic groups solo without any danger or fear of ...well, of anything!</div><div>-----------------</div><div>i dont remember Templar has special AC buffs that stay alive w/o care , except 1 of the AC proc , and the Valor itself. so a 200 more AC priest makes the Guardian handle yellow and oj heroic group does nothing for the unbalance of the priests (unless u prove that 200 ac = everything.  as usual)</div><div> </div><div>another point is...Warden has been parsed that outhealing Templar in raid that hit slow (mostly they hit slow unless u fight multi spawn like Feerrott Instance...MOTM.)</div><div> </div><div>THE healer because Templar mitigation buffs the best for group, if u combine an Inquisitor they can both play their heal role well (if u use the secondary buffs from heal wisely)</div><div> </div><div>after LU13, the balance has gone completely, the worse buffer class granted more heals, the better buffers class granted nothing (ya got mez and stun that wont work on epic). balanced direct heal, balanced special heal slightly after LU13. now the offense class has more heals than the defense. (currently in the new healer parser tells me inquisitor outheal templar by 25%+)</div><div> </div><div>Templar indeed changed from top to bottom list.  just because raid calls need healer and the templar doesnt have choices (or friends call, just the same), not because of Templar still more fun to play than other priests.</div>

[BBouch]

 <div>"another point is...Warden has been parsed that outhealing Templar in raid that hit slow (mostly they hit slow unless u fight multi spawn like Feerrott Instance...MOTM.)"<font color="#ff9900">Actually the mob doesnt matter. If you're talking about raids.. lets see... it's all about the Debuffs now. Throw in two shammys into the raid and a swashy and you've already gotten the auto attack of the mob reduced by some 50%+ (max is around 75%). So the Templar heals 1/2 as much as it usually would for the auto attack. Clerics seem to do better when a tank is tanking multiple targets. Even then they dont outperform, say a warden (if only because wardens Group HoT makes the difference). In multiple raids, I have yet to parse a Cleric outhealing a Druid (in the MT group).</font></div><div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<div>I wouldnt say we are out performed.</div><div> </div><div>Ive been doing some parsing recently in t6 DoF raids, 6 priests no shammy.</div><div> </div><div>All the priests out of MT group and the druid in MT group were healing for similar amounts, within a few k of each other, sometimes the MT group druid would be higher.</div><div> </div><div>But as MT Templar I was always highest, 20 - 30% above rest on average.</div><div> </div><div>On the first Gates named I did 70k healing while the rest did around 50k and a fury who was mostly nuking did 25k, but when he just healed he was sameish nubers as rest.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Even out of group I wouldnt say we get out perfomed often, when mobs hit fast we can take the floor and parse the most, when they hit slow and hard Furies have more ways and quickest casting ways to get a tank up quickest.</div><div> </div><div>I guess thats going to be about as diverse as we get, "balanced" healing with strengths in certain areas.</div><div> </div><div>= boring to me but ah well, I see druids as better in areas like direct healing but screwed in areas like group hp buffing.</div><div> </div><div>We'll see what KoS and these AS bring, I hope I can max specialise myself to healing.</div>

[Suite]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:*snort*Radar, do you work in customer service?<div></div><hr></blockquote>By customer service do you mean people asking "Why is my PC not working" or "Why can't I get a new printer" all day?I actually spent a year as a call coach in a large callcenter.   In addition to training over 60 people I took all those "Let me talk to your supervisor" calls.  *shudder*  Good times...now if you'll excuse me I'm going to get into the fetal position and sing the "Crying Game" song.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffcccc">Ahahaha, this was hilarious!/sputters cokeSuite</font></span></div>

[kenji]

<div></div><div>AA....its because u didnt have enough slow (mentioned 50~75% slow on auto attack from another poster) , so your templar Reactive is much more needed (yet i dunno how Inquisitor heal less than u, they have better heals (with convert), maybe its player skill or strat). so u can out heal other priests.</div><div> </div><div>Reactive after slow is a pain, less useful vs Regen. u gotta agree <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>if u say the druids screwed on hp buffs...i would say templar is also screwed on power buffs......... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[BBouch]

<div></div>AA"I see druids as better in areas like direct healing but screwed in areas like group hp buffing."<font color="#ff9900">Errr if that's the comparison technique you're using, then I'd say Templars are screwed in areas like group wisdom (+resistance +mana). Druids suck at hp buffing, because they're not supposed to. </font><font color="#ff9900">Get some shammys in your raid. </font><font color="#ff9900">Then you'll see where HP buffing comes from. You'll also find the encounters are easier because of the slow. Really that isn't the way to go about the comparison, but as long as you're happy with your Templar that is all that matters.Really for raids, Group HP buffing means nothing compared to +resistance +mana.As a mystic in raids (when the defiler is away), I place additional buffs on the warden over the templar. While they're both fantastic players, I'd rather have the higher probability of survival on the warden./Agree with Kenjiso also. Post DoF, when done properly, Inquisitors can heal better then Templars (just by a bit, but it still counts). I have found that for the most part, priests with given mana regen (Inquisitor / Warden / Defiler) capabilities can be more efficient in raids then the others (Templar / Fury / Mystic). I wonder if it's a coincidence, as the mana regen alone doesnt set them apart from their counterpart, but it's the way the cookie crumbles.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 PM</span></p>