The "Controlling" Templar

[Kendricke]

<DIV><STRONG>Preface:<BR></STRONG><EM>This guide is neither meant as a definitive work on the subject, nor as a completed volume.  It's intended as a collaborative work in progress, a place to share tips and tactics on the subject.  </EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Introduction:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>With the Combat Revamp of September 2005's Live Update 13, Templars found several new tools within our arsenal which seemed designed to assist with controlling aspects of a combat encounter other than direct heals, damage, or enchantments.  One spell line was introduced, another spell line was changed, and two other spell lines were altered only slightly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These four spell lines are as follows:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><STRONG>Soothe - </STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ff9900 size=1>Lowers the aggression radius of an enemy. Any hostile actions taken on that enemy or its encounter will break the effect.</FONT></EM><BR>L10 Soothe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Sign - </STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ff9900 size=1>Places an impairment on the target that pacifies them, preventing them from making normal combat attacks. The pacify effect will break if the target receives any damage<BR></FONT></EM>L21 Sign of Weakness<BR>L35 Sign of Debility<BR>L49 Sign of Infirmity</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Prostrate  - </STRONG><FONT color=#ff9900 size=1><EM>Stuns an opponent for a short duration.</EM></FONT><BR>L39 Prostrate<BR>L53 Force Submission</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Distract - </STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ff9900 size=1>Pacifies all enemies near the templar, preventing them from making normal combat attacks, and reduces their hate towards the templar. Any hostile actions taken on them will break the pacify effect</FONT></EM><BR>L13 Distract<BR>L27 Placate<BR>L41 Harmony<BR>L55 Greater Harmony</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>In addition, the Smite line also maintains a small pacification effect, coupled with damage:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><STRONG>Smite -</STRONG> <EM><FONT color=#ff9900 size=1>Deals instant divine damage to target enemy and pacifies them, preventing them attacking in combat for a short duration as long as they don't receive additional damage<BR></FONT></EM>L17 Greater Smite<BR>L31 Reproving Smite<BR>L45 Condemning Smite<BR>L59 Judging Smite</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>I personally find the most use for these spells in small group situations (2-4 members), or when there are multiple healers within the group (especially other Clerics).  Because I tend to avoid using these spells all that often in large groups (5 or 6 members), or when soloing, I'll limit my experiences to the small group situation.  All references to use that I list below will be within this context unless otherwise noted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's important to note that what we have is not full blown crowd control in the <EM>traditional</EM> sense, but I find that these spells still have a use.  Like any other tool, the trick is finding the best situation for utilization.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><STRONG>Soothe:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've heard many Templars say that Soothe is useful when harvesting.  I have no doubt that this may be true, but for myself, I tend to find the most use within crowded dungeons which have wanderers, like Stormhold, Runnyeye, Permafrost, the Clefts of Rujark, Silent City, and other such places. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, Soothe is not perfect, and just because it lowers aggressive range on the targets you cast it upon does not mean those are now non-aggressive targets.  Make note of this when casting on wanderers who take a central position in a hall or intersection of halls...and also make sure to mention this little fact to your groupmates. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Sign:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In smaller groups, I find this spell to come in very, very handy.  Especially at higher levels, this spell line can effectively drop quite a bit of DPS in a heroic situation.  The best way I've found to use this spell involves utilization of the targetting nuances of the game and a quick macro:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Make sure the group's aware you'll be using this spell.  Make sure that everyone knows up front that attacking a "sign'd" target will break the pacification effect.  Make sure that they know AE's are fine...as are non-damaging direct spells.  Have them work toward assisting the fighter or designated main assist at all times. </LI> <LI>When using this on pulls, work out a system with your fighter.  He should always pull the left most target in an encounter...or the closest...or something similar.  On pulls, you'll target one of the monsters or creatures not being pulled and immediately cast this.</LI> <LI>As SOON as the spell begins casting, switch back to the fighter and start queueing up your first round of debuffs (typically Admonishment or Atoning Fate for myself) while the Sign is casting.  Even though you're no longer targetting the original creature, the spell "remembers" who it was targetting when the cast began.  You can use this same system to toss a heal at the fighter, and while that heal is casting, target a creature you want to Sign.</LI> <LI>Remember to macro!  Use the "/mine" audio emote if you want...or toss in a line similar to "/g MEZ:  %t is unable to attack for 16 seconds." or "/g CEASE!  I've removed %t's ability to attack us for a short time."  The point is to let your group know you've used your spell in some way.</LI></OL> <P>If you'd like to "permalock" the target, use the following tip:  When Sign has about 2-3 seconds left on it, I tend to cast Prostrate/Force Submission (see below).  The fact that the target is already pacified gives me the time necessary to cast the stun.  By the time the stun is wearing off, your Sign should be ready for recast.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Prostrate:</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Now, another use for Sign that's often overlooked is that it's a great pulling spell.  Because it doesn't fully stun the target, or root it in place, using Sign can bring a target in closer to the group, so that the fighter can spend time actually taunting instead of using long range damage spells or arts.</P> <P>In many smaller groups, I use this pulling tactic, combined with the "permalock" tip to essentially park targets for the group so that we can optimize our time in groups.  Combat is constant in this way, with the fighter simply moving from target to parked target, while the Templar keeps pulling and parking new blood for the letting.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 AM</span>

[Nari]

I would definitely like to hear some ideas for these spells because I have not found them to be that effective. <div></div>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Soothe -   good for harvesting but really not that great for anything else.</DIV> <DIV>Sign -  good for "mezing" an add that comes running at you but if the tank is doing his/her job then youll never use it.</DIV> <DIV>Prostrate  - I never use it. Too long of a cast time and it gets resisted alot.</DIV> <DIV>Distract - Good holy crap spell if you get alot of adds. Run in middle and cast it and it gives the tank/chanter time to get things under control.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Smite - Templar nukes are useless. I don't even have nukes loaded on my hotbars. hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Andu]

Well, while I have had little success using the mark line I have found the Prostrate line to be excellent in groups. If you cast reactives on the MT while he is pulling, then start casting Prostrate, by the time it lands the reactives are just wearing off and the mob is down to 50% of its hp's and is then stunned for pretty much the remainder of the encounter. This allows the DPS to go full tilt without fear of being aggroed. However, due to its long cast time and short duration it is poor in terms of crowd control. It might be viable if used in conjunction with the Mark line but I have not been able to engineer a circumstance where I would want or need to. It also ties you up so you dont really get to use the mark of and involuntary healer lines, but if the mob is stunned there is no use for them anyway. <div></div>

[Copperha]

<P>Yes I would like to hear more too. If I use soothe, sometimes I see an effect and sometimes it doesn't seem to make a difference? </P> <P>The distract line I have used to save my butt when every mob in the universe decides it is smack the priest day. Fortunately this does not happen very often particularly given the very long recast time on this spell. </P><p>Message Edited by Copperhand on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[thesilverf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR>I would definitely like to hear some ideas for these spells because I have not found them to be that effective.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I have really grown to like Forced submission.  I started using this in downtime just to try to raise my subjugation.  Then it became very useful.  </P> <P>The Wisps in Shimmering citadel are healers, and tend to bust out their healing when they get to about 30% health.  When they got around there I'd drop a stun on them and they go down the rest of the way fast.  </P> <P>Then around level 55, I started regularly using it against named mobs in the clefts, like that Blademaster.  & seconds without his DPS hittin any of my group.  Gives me enough time to cast Fateful Intercession and reset all my other spell timers.  </P> <P>Now I use it against all tough Named mobs.  Helps in the roost, ancients table, etc.  It gets resisted about 20% of the time but my Subjugation still isn't maxed, think it is at about 290. </P> <DIV>Sooth...  Ehh  ok for getting around that one mob.</DIV> <DIV>Sign...  Barely use it except to pull solo.  </DIV> <DIV>Distract...  Use it rarely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bjerde]

Prostrate is a great spell for grouping, as is the mezz line....make a macro so ppl don't break the mezz. For raiding these spells are all useless : )Stun/Stifles are very important and can REALLY help in defeating named encounters. You can just get added into rotating stuns/stifles to keep the tough mobs shut up so they do far less damage. It only gets resisted a lot if you don't max out your Subjugation skill.Target yourself, and spam Harmony and that will build up your Subjugation skill. Yeah, it takes awhile. Prostrate at a higher level is 7 seconds, that isn't that bad. That could be a couple of Combat Arts that a mob didn't get off, or maybe an Ice Comet : )Use ProstrateSoothe seems to break about 90% of the time now, even on green undercons....as soon as I get near the mob (after it has been Soothed), it aggros me. This started happening after LU16 I think. I hadn't used it in awhile, then I started using it again trying to complete quests in Living Tombs and it hardly ever works in there. Usually I am trying it on the undead Dogs running in the drains.<div></div>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>Soothe:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use this all of the time when my group is in a tight situation and mobs are wandering near us. I'll soothe it over and tell people to just stay away from it and it won't aggro. I also use it for harvesting, but mostly in dungeons where you have wandering monsters that path in your area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sign of XXXXX Line:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do use this a lot, but I must communicate this with my group or they will mistake the monster as aggroing me. The spell tends to function like a charm, only it isn't. It's hard to explain, but basically the monster runs up to me and faces me, which to the tank looks like I'm going to get the beatdown. There's no visual indicator of him being mesmerized other than me telling everyone "YO DON'T HIT IT!!!" Otherwise, between this and Prostrate, I can actually keep one monster locked down and mezzed in a fight. Very useful. And the Sign of Infirmity is 16 seconds, which is more than long enough to help a group and it does definitely reduce damage.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>I finally updated my write-up.  I offer apologies for the delay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Soothe -   good for harvesting but really not that great for anything else.</DIV> <DIV>Sign -  good for "mezing" an add that comes running at you but if the tank is doing his/her job then youll never use it.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Prostrate  - I never use it. Too long of a cast time and it gets resisted alot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Distract - Good holy crap spell if you get alot of adds. Run in middle and cast it and it gives the tank/chanter time to get things under control.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Smite - Templar nukes are useless. I don't even have nukes loaded on my hotbars. hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What level do you have it at?  At Adept 1 mine is resisted very rarely and I find it really useful against Nameds (especially casters).

[javis]

<DIV>Soothe has it's place, I have used it on occasion but mostly for harvesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see the benefit of the sign line, I just haven't had the need to use it extensively. I haven't created macros for it because I do not use it enough to take the time to do it. In my opinion it is not so great that it would warrant me to do it. Mobs dies too quick in the groups I am in. In smaller groups or less dps intensive it would definitely serve a purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The prostrate line rocks, I use it as often as I can. The fate line and prostrate line are my most used non healing spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never nuke unless there is HO that requires me to finish it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Izzy 56.98 templar for about a month now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>-Xel L34 Defiler and climbing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by javis on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:06 PM</span>

[RedFeather]

<P>Templars and Inquisitors seem to be given these new spells and spell effects to spice up thier gameplay.</P> <P>It offers an interesting sidebar to healing as it allows us to lower the amount of damage a tank sustains (just as effective as healing when used properly)</P> <P>These new spells and effects are very situational. I don't think many cleric players understand exactly how interesting group fights can be when used appropriately!</P> <P>It was a boon in disguise from CU.</P>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedFeather1975 wrote:<BR> <P>Templars and Inquisitors seem to be given these new spells and spell effects to spice up thier gameplay.</P> <P>It offers an interesting sidebar to healing as it allows us to lower the amount of damage a tank sustains (just as effective as healing when used properly)</P> <P>These new spells and effects are very situational. I don't think many cleric players understand exactly how interesting group fights can be when used appropriately!</P> <P>It was a boon in disguise from CU.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed, RedFeather.  These spells give templars some active spells to make up for mostly passive reactives and lotto heals.  I have really appreciated and enjoyed the pacify addition to the game.

[Merrilee]

<P> </P> <P>I use our prostrate line stun (Forced Submission) multiple times in every hard fight.  It is a seven second stun and is very rarely resisted even at Ad1, although I have upgraded to Adept III.  </P> <P>This spell is invaluable in hard fights, it interrupts the mob and prevents it from casting or damaging your tank (or any overactive casters) for seven seconds.  That is a long time in terms of a fight : )</P> <P>This spell states that it will not work against epic mobs, but I have used it on raids against some mobs listed as epic, such as the wolves in Drayek.  Try it on everything, this spell is a blessing.</P> <P>Kind regards,</P> <P>Eillie</P> <P>Eillie Moonglimmer</P> <P>Level 60 Templar</P> <P>Guildleader, Elven Blades</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Xerxess]

<P>I love stun...I use stun all the time. I duo with a ranger a lot and it really helps. You stun and it gives them time to complete a few back stabs.</P> <P>Though I rarely use our pacify spells. Soothe is ok but its only one at a time atleast I think. Sign spell takes way to long to regen so if you get more then two add then you can only pacify one while 2 are still beating on the tank or you.</P> <DIV>Though I didn't start a healer to become a crowd controller either but...oh well =P</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>I've been using my stun less as a first resort, and more as a follow up to Sign and even Smite.  Both of those spells have faster cast times...and give enough time to fire off a Stun.</P> <P>When soloing, I've begun using smite (without autoattack) right before casting a heal, since it pacifies for a few seconds - enough time to cut down on interruptions.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<P>Ok, I'm getting more proficient as a control based Templar.  In many recent groups, I've become the primary chain puller - especially if there's a secondary healer in the group.  </P> <P>I pull with Sign, park the target where the fighters can taunt it easily, and then drop an Admonishment and Involuntary Curate on it.  I make sure my groupmates understand exactly what "infirmed" means, and encourage everyone to constantly use manastones or slivers whenever possible.</P> <P>As soon as the current target gets down to around 20% life, I rush out and pull another target.  Downtime is practically non-existant.  </P> <P> </P>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>I love Forced Submission, but at this time iis there any reason to update it to adept 3 or master 1?</DIV>

[Viane]

<DIV>I saw master 1 forced submission on the broker last night, description was exactly the same as the adept1 I have.  I didnt want to waste 5pp to buy and scribe it to see if it made a difference, but from the description, they appear to be the exact same.</DIV>

[Aleph]

<P>Supposedly, and I have no proof that this is so, upgraded spells such as stun and sign are cast at a higher "casting level" than non-upgraded ones, so they are resisted less often.  I believe Silverfrost said something to this effect a few days ago.  I have also read this elsewhere before.  That said, I haven't upgraded mine, because I frankly don't have much resist trouble with those spells, even on high yellows.</P> <P>Alephin</P>

[Blast2hell]

Ahh, good info.  Well a master 1 of forced submission is on the broker for 11pp, way too much hehe.

[Copperha]

Hmmm in that case it might be worth trying an upgrade to Adept III just to see. I currently have an adept I stun. It lands well enough on yellow or less but the groups I now join fight mobs that are orange to me and I have problems landing it consistently.

[Kendricke]

<P>Live Update 18, currently on Test, notes that resistance baselines will be included in spell descriptions.  I can go log into my Test character tonight to note if there are any differences we should see.</P> <P> </P>

[The_Itch]

I find the prostrate stun can be useful when in a group against a mob with high dps. The recast on derect heals is oftern too long to be sutable to keep the heals coming, so a short 7 second ish stun is ample to get the heals back and the tanks heath up.Even at 56 im still using the prostrate and not the forced submission tho. Better power efficency and because its a low level spell and my skill is above mastery level, very few resists, unlike the once on a blue moon hit and hope lvl 53 spell.Never used it b4 revamp, but now comes in handy.

[Copperha]

<P>Yesterday I was grouped with a couple of guild members that I don't often play with due to time zone differences. They are a husaband and wife Guardian (Lvl59)/Templar (Lvl59) team. I was along for some XP and to provide additional healing. We were in the clefts pulling cyclops from the tent camps to try and spawn named mobs. Each pull consisted of a 2-3 level 59 heroics (at least one of which was a healer) + 1 ^^ or ^^^ level 59 heroic. The guardian was dual-wielding and not using a shield since really he was the only one providing significant DPS to the fight. After a few fights it was clear that we could do these camps as a group but that the tank was taking too much of a beating (ie the fights were very dangerous). I was attempting to lockdown the ^^, ^^^ heroic by rotating prostrate and debility but was meeting with limited success because the mobs were orange and 8 levels above me. After a few fights the guardian noticed my spam message and asked me what the heck I was talking about. I told him that the ^^ mob was pacified. He had just finished killing one of the other mobs and had targeted the ^^ but had not started fighting. Surprised by what I had said he didn't attack and was shocked to see the mob stand in front of him doing nothing. I explained how our new stun and pacify lines worked and the other Templar (lvl 59) armed with her new knowledge took over the duty of controlling the ^^, ^^^ heroic until the other mobs were dead. I provided the bulk of the healing and repeatedly stunned the healer mob to keep it from healing. Simple and obvious strategy perhaps but it made a HUGE difference. Don't underestimate the power of our new CC line of spells, they do work and they work well. Now if only I could get them to land more reliably on the higher level content (orange con)....</P> <P> </P>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Yeah, as I've posted in other messages, groups are often very surprised that I can throw down a mez-like spell as a Templar.  And they usually have no idea what I'm talking about when I say I've soothed a nearby possible add until they target it and see that it's no longer aggro.  Hehe and duo with a scout sometime.  They LOVE our long stun for back-position damage when coordinated correctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our sign line didn't seem that useful to me until I started trioing a bit in PoF or Clefts and found myself mezzing occasional adds just to keep damage off the tank.  It's abilities like this that are hard to parse.  And, unfortunately, don't have anything to do with our raid abilities.  In an xp group, I can make some encounters that would seem difficult almost too easy hehe.  Granted, my sign only lasts for about 16 seconds at adept 1.  But it refreshes almost as fast as the spell expires so I can almost keep a mob perma-mezzed in a tough fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Andu]

<div></div>I think I am one of the few Templars who like mezzing and was excited to see it being added in the revamp. I have an enchanter in EQ1 and would of levelled an enchanter alt if not for being warned off the class by a couple of high-level chanter guildies. Of course, I was VERY disappointed with what we ended up with. The reason why I don't use the mezz as often as I would is purely down to the lack of a spell graphic to show it is mezzed. It is hard to keep having to teach groupmates that the mob that is still running around apparently unscathed is in fact taken out for now. Not many are observant enough to see that it is not attacking. Some sparklies would be all that is needed - everyone knows what the swirling rainbow means and would act accordingly. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>12-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>You know, I was going to bring this up last night.  Given the name of the spell line, I'd like to see the knockdown graphic used.  Basically think of it as a mob that is so weakened by our magic that they can't even stand up.  The knockdown animations are already in the game just make them stay on the ground for the duration.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yeah, no group member knows you're using your mez because the mob still moves around and there's no spell effects going off.  So they just assume that the mob that's standing next to you is attacking you.  And the group jumps in to break your carefully casted mez.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zabumtik wrote:<BR> <DIV>You know, I was going to bring this up last night.  Given the name of the spell line, I'd like to see the knockdown graphic used.  Basically think of it as a mob that is so weakened by our magic that they can't even stand up.  The knockdown animations are already in the game just make them stay on the ground for the duration.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yeah, no group member knows you're using your mez because the mob still moves around and there's no spell effects going off.  So they just assume that the mob that's standing next to you is attacking you.  And the group jumps in to break your carefully casted mez.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Though I certainly agree (and have said as much several times) with the opinion that this spell needs a VERY visible attribute, if you stick to a main assist situation, you should have few issues with your group attacking the wrong targets and breaking infirm.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

Sad thing here is that what you Kend think of as our strengths, is in fact a penalty. Those classes who dont get these 'controlling spells', have better healing. And in order for us to get to the same end result as they, we need to use these 'strengths'. Personally I'd like to see all these crappy spells removed and all our heals increased 25% in healing power. Net result would be the same and then we would actually HEAL as well as druids. At the moment our true healing power is about 25% less that druid healing and this is despite that fact that we are <i>pure healers</i> without any kind of offensive bonus. The better healers are also better DPS. I wish you would just open your eyes instead of pretending and living in your own 'reality'. <div></div>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>In a main assist group, I agree.  However, I've, more than once, found a scout-type that's keeping an eye on me and the other more-squishy types at the back of the group.  As soon as I cast my sign on a mob and they see the mob stick to me they assume it's attacking me and call out that there's an add on the healer.  I then, of course, have to calm everyone down and tell them how our mez line works.  Would be better if there were some spell animations.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

No, they need to remove these 'control spells' and give us actual healing spells instead. <div></div>

[Azmodi]

<DIV>I for one love this idea, Personally Id forgoe all my DPS spells for more controll abillity. I hate soloing, as I come from EQ1 where priests where banned from soloing anyway, and Im never logged in more than 2 minutes without a spam of group invites,as Im sure you all are as well.(everyone loves a healer)</DIV> <DIV>I played a cleric / enchanter/ shaman 3 box hydra on EQ1, and if this game will allow me to combine my healer and my control, I am all for it! Give me all the control you dare, and ill exploit it to my best. Ive always been a control freak. Thats why I picked Templar honestly, to me the Control is a great boon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apostate Anti'Apostle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xerxess]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:13 PM</span>

[ParlMoebius]

This thread isnt an argument on whether or not you like these new abilities... it's for informational purposes on using them, in which I have found a number of suggestions to add to what I have already discovered on my own.  I appreciate these types of threads, and wish those that have to make things into conflict would take the comparisons and argument to a posting that is more appropriate.  Otherwise you are turning multiple threads into repetitive rehashing of the same discussion.

[Xerxess]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:13 PM</span>

[Mabes]

<DIV>Hey, I'm a 53 templar, and I just got the option to get force submition, but currently I have a master I prostrate, that very rarely gets resisted.  What I'm wondering is if it's even worth getting the force submition?  Is there a longer stun time on force submition?</DIV>

[MadisonPark]

There are multiple "complaint" posts, why must every thread be turned into an argument over whats "right" for templars.  Let a thread that is posted for information/ instructional purpose alone, you are not being forced to either read nor use the information. <p>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[ParlMoebius]

<DIV>Of course you can :smileyhappy:  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm mostly just saying that I've been meandering through these Templar forums looking for useful tips and bits of information... but it seems that far too many threads end up being a sounding board for mostly the same complaints, and mostly the same conflict between certain people regarding the said complaints and comparisons.  This thread was specifically for sharing tips and suggestions on how to use the new Templar abilities, it was stated so in the beginning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can post anything you want, it wont get me bent out of shape, and I dont want it to be taken the wrong way...  I just wish people on the forums were more laid back in general *shrug* </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P><FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>The Templar as Puller:</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>My guild is fortunate and blessed to have many, many Templars.  Unfortunately, we do not often have enough fighters.  This leads to situations where we are often forming groups with two Templars and only one fighter.  Often, in this situation, the fighter would be called upon to pull as well as tank.  Even in groups with just one healer, or with a Templar and some other priest, you'll find the fighter used also as a puller.   </P> <P>The thought behind this is simple:  the fighter establishes hate early on and is better able to maintain it.  It's a strong concept, and a hard paradigm to overcome.  In short, it's become "in box" de facto thinking.  </P> <P>What I'd like to do however, is suggest an "out of the box" tactic:  The Templar as puller.</P> <P>I can already hear the thoughts brewing:  <EM>"Brother Kendricke, you can't possibly mean we should change our role?  What blasphemy is this?" </EM>  Let me explain:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>The Tactic:</FONT></P> <P>Our Sign line is remarkably good for pulling.  It locks down the attacks of your target, but does NOT lock down the ability of the target to move.  It's also relatively fast casting.  This makes it an ideal pulling spell.  Cast on your target, run back to your group, and wait till the fighter has a chance to taunt it.  While you're waiting, you can cast a debuff or two on it (I like Involuntary and Rebuke/Admonishment lines).  Once the fighter is engaged in combat, fire off a reactive or two if you're the only healer.  If you're not the only healer, then you shouldn't need to unless it's necessary.</P> <P>Now, in a slower killing group (lots of healers and fighters, or lower levels), you may stick around a bit and assist with the kill.  When the target's health reaches a certain amount (typically 20% - give or take), run out and grab a new target.  Park it, debuff it, and wait for the fighter to take it (make sure to have the fighter taunt before attacking).  </P> <P>In a fast killing group (lots of DPS), then you're likely not sitting around much at all - especially if you've got another healer in the group.  Don't wait for the kill - go grab another pull right away and park it.  Use Sign and Stun to essentially "permalock" the target till the fighter taunts it off of you.  Keep pulling and keep parking.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Power concerns:</FONT></P> <P>The ultimate goal is as little downtime as possible.  Food and drink should be largely irrelevant in such a group as you'll almost never be out of combat.  </P> <P>Even then, make sure to keep an eye on everyone's power as well as their health.  Most importantly, keep an eye on the primary tank's power reserves, as well as any other healers in your group.  No one likes a puller who brings in a killer when the tank is out of blue.</P> <P>Manastones will come in very handy.  As well, you'll find Necromancers and Conjurors to be quite useful.  Enchanters and Bards can make a huge difference, in more than just power regeneration...as they can often assist in "parking" adds and pulls.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Conclusion:</FONT></P> <P>Templars can actually make very powerful pullers in the right groups.  I've successfully used the tactic in groups as small as three and with full groups of six as well.  </P> <P>The key is communication and teamwork.  A good group works well together and keeps each other working together.  A lesser group leads to a dead Templar and lots of angry fingers being pointed.  Make sure everyone understands what spells you'll be using, what the spells do, and what not to do.</P> <P>Finally, make sure you time your pulls appropriately.  Don't overwhelm your groups with more than you can handle.  It's better to pull too slowly than too quickly, especially while you're learning the tactic.  Once you get it down though, don't be afraid to make your group work hard.  </P> <P>It's not a tactic I recommend for all situations, nor do I suggest it for all playstyles.  However, for those like myself who find that it's a great way to really increase the efficiency of your groups, I wish you happy hunting.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR> There are multiple "complaint" posts, why must every thread be turned into an argument over whats "right" for templars.  Let a thread that is posted for information/ instructional purpose alone, you are not being forced to either read nor use the information. <P>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <SPAN class=date_text>12-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>because when a complaint pops up then people that feel templars are ok belittle the op or tell them to go else where.</P> <P>Like I said one-sided...</P>

[Archill]

Thank you for this post, Kendricke. This information has helped me a lot on my path to becoming a templar. (32 templar on AB, for those curious.) <div></div>

[Copperha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MadisonPark wrote:<BR> There are multiple "complaint" posts, why must every thread be turned into an argument over whats "right" for templars.  Let a thread that is posted for information/ instructional purpose alone, you are not being forced to either read nor use the information. <P>Message Edited by MadisonPark on <SPAN class=date_text>12-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>because when a complaint pops up then people that feel templars are ok belittle the op or tell them to go else where.</P> <P>Like I said one-sided...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am not one who thinks Templars are okay across the board. I will never intentionally belittle you. However, I agree with the other posters that this is a good information thread that should remain as such. <BR></P>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff6600><STRONG>The Templar as Puller:</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>My guild is fortunate and blessed to have many, many Templars.  Unfortunately, we do not often have enough fighters.  This leads to situations where we are often forming groups with two Templars and only one fighter.  Often, in this situation, the fighter would be called upon to pull as well as tank.  Even in groups with just one healer, or with a Templar and some other priest, you'll find the fighter used also as a puller.  </P> <P>The thought behind this is simple:  the fighter establishes hate early on and is better able to maintain it.  It's a strong concept, and a hard paradigm to overcome.  In short, it's become "in box" de facto thinking. </P> <P>What I'd like to do however, is suggest an "out of the box" tactic:  The Templar as puller.</P> <P>I can already hear the thoughts brewing:  <EM>"Brother Kendricke, you can't possibly mean we should change our role?  What blasphemy is this?" </EM>  Let me explain:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>The Tactic:</FONT></P> <P>Our Sign line is remarkably good for pulling.  It locks down the attacks of your target, but does NOT lock down the ability of the target to move.  It's also relatively fast casting.  This makes it an ideal pulling spell.  Cast on your target, run back to your group, and wait till the fighter has a chance to taunt it.  While you're waiting, you can cast a debuff or two on it (I like Involuntary and Rebuke/Admonishment lines).  Once the fighter is engaged in combat, fire off a reactive or two if you're the only healer.  If you're not the only healer, then you shouldn't need to unless it's necessary.</P> <P>Now, in a slower killing group (lots of healers and fighters, or lower levels), you may stick around a bit and assist with the kill.  When the target's health reaches a certain amount (typically 20% - give or take), run out and grab a new target.  Park it, debuff it, and wait for the fighter to take it (make sure to have the fighter taunt before attacking). </P> <P>In a fast killing group (lots of DPS), then you're likely not sitting around much at all - especially if you've got another healer in the group.  Don't wait for the kill - go grab another pull right away and park it.  Use Sign and Stun to essentially "permalock" the target till the fighter taunts it off of you.  Keep pulling and keep parking. </P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This tactic was commonly referred to as "chain-pulling" many moons ago, in another life. The reasoning is sound Kendricke, but I have a few questions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. "Perma-locking" mobs with stuns/Sign or pulling with Sign alone generates a bit of hate aye?</DIV> <DIV>2.  How long does it take to take one away from you after the lock or pull?</DIV> <DIV>3.  Do you get beat upon as a result?</DIV> <DIV>4.  If you do get beat upon - would not the power you are spending on yourself be better suited for a class that is better able to miti/avoid?</DIV> <DIV>5.  When assisting with a kill, and further debuffing, does it make it more difficult for a fighter to get aggro?</DIV> <DIV>6.  Knowing we have a hate-reducer, is it very often required more often than it is available as a result?<BR>7.  Between pulling with Sign, and casting the Mark/Curate lines, when applicable, and the fighter type spending power to gain aggro from you - would it not be more efficient to have the fighter pull instead?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Power concerns:</FONT></P> <P>The ultimate goal is as little downtime as possible.  Food and drink should be largely irrelevant in such a group as you'll almost never be out of combat. </P> <P>Even then, make sure to keep an eye on everyone's power as well as their health.  Most importantly, keep an eye on the primary tank's power reserves, as well as any other healers in your group.  No one likes a puller who brings in a killer when the tank is out of blue.</P> <P>Manastones will come in very handy.  As well, you'll find Necromancers and Conjurors to be quite useful.  Enchanters and Bards can make a huge difference, in more than just power regeneration...as they can often assist in "parking" adds and pulls. </P> <FONT color=#ff6600></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree - crack in spell and song has always been the end-all be-all of "chain-pulling", and "over-pulls" can be very serious since we, as Templars,  have no serious means of controlling more than one mob efficiently, e.g. mez/charm. Also agreed that everyone should be "gtg" with power on pulls, knowing what they have coming, after learning the pace and skill of the puller. But I do have another question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. In that, albeit very situational, group with both Bard and Chanty, was there any other class that may have been more suitable for pull?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:  <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Conclusion:</FONT></P> <P>Templars can actually make very powerful pullers in the right groups.  I've successfully used the tactic in groups as small as three and with full groups of six as well. </P> <P>The key is communication and teamwork.  A good group works well together and keeps each other working together.  A lesser group leads to a dead Templar and lots of angry fingers being pointed.  Make sure everyone understands what spells you'll be using, what the spells do, and what not to do.</P> <P>Finally, make sure you time your pulls appropriately.  Don't overwhelm your groups with more than you can handle.  It's better to pull too slowly than too quickly, especially while you're learning the tactic.  Once you get it down though, don't be afraid to make your group work hard. </P> <P>It's not a tactic I recommend for all situations, nor do I suggest it for all playstyles.  However, for those like myself who find that it's a great way to really increase the efficiency of your groups, I wish you happy hunting.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I will agree that it is an interesting twist on the EQ2 Templar, not unlike the one used in another life with other characters and an interesting spell-line starting with Lull. In certain situations, before target DA, clerics were actually used to Lull/DA pull. The difference was that they had a multi-target Lull, then later a Wipe and always that DA.  In this version I wonder at the efficiency of such utility lacking these three alone. I would also wonder at group mobs, particularly Heroic^+ and their effect on a Templars repair costs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kazon Stormhammer/AB</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. In that, albeit very situational, group with both Bard and Chanty, was there any other class that may have been more suitable for pull?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kazon Stormhammer/AB</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>One thing I have noticed, the person makes the puller more then the class (In EQ2).  Although some classes do have abilities that help a good puller to become better.<BR>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. In that, albeit very situational, group with both Bard and Chanty, was there any other class that may have been more suitable for pull?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kazon Stormhammer/AB</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>One thing I have noticed, the person makes the puller more then the class (In EQ2).  Although some classes do have abilities that help a good puller to become better.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree wholeheartedly, and I was assuming, perhaps mistakenly, the skill of the players in a group with Kendricke would be on par with his ability. My position would be to allow a class with better CC, base movement control, melee speed debuff, etc., to pull, and in lieu of that, if unavailable, the tanker. I completely disagree with the concept of Templars as frontline pullers, not just because of our skill-set, but also because of our miti/avoid, and because of our inability to truly CC, whether by mez/charm or, as is the most popular in EQ2, tanker-taunt "all on me" crowd control, especially when grinding. I believe it is inefficient - but I am willing to hear the other side, thus my questions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skill is a mighty variable. Cleric pulls and "chain-pulling" are from the last installment of EQ. But the difference is obvious. This isnt the last installment, so these tactics should be thought out in terms of the Templar skill-set primarily, not the skill of the player. It has been said more than once here on these boards that once upon a time, pre-LU13, that even a weak player healing with a Templar could frame a house in between pulls because the class was so strong in that area. I believe that these strengths still exist in particular areas of gameplay, pulling being one of them. Again, I do not believe that this is one of our strengths.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do believe that we are decent at healing, strong even when the dice roll our way, over the long haul fight. With some notification to casters, canni and our investment G-Heals are a great combination for keeping the power up, though there is the G-heal proc, but again that is a roll of the dice. There is something to be said of working tandem with a Shaman, and our own miti-debuffs. It is less obvious without a Shaman, and I rarely cast it unless it is a long-haul fight. For sure, however, other than Soothe for general content bypass, when applicable, and the occasional wanderer and Sign and Prostrate for short-term encounter stability with adds, we are not CC. In my opinion, if we are not CC, and we lack the basic class skill-set to miti/avoid better than a tanker, we should not pull. It isnt efficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But there are two sides to every coin, so I asked questions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lates.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kenji]

as long as a group have Templar + Bard + Chanter = superior low dps / long fight / slow xp.  =)

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR>as long as a group have Templar + Bard + Chanter = superior low dps / long fight / slow xp.  =) <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Group consisted at various times of a Swashbuckler, Monk, Paladin, Wizard, Illusionist, Fury, Conjuror, and myself.  We pulled in roughly 40-45% experience per hour for levels 52-56.  In just over 2 hours of play, I pulled in 105% experience.  Every single person on the group that could level up, did so at least once.  The Fury almost leveled twice.  If that's your idea of slow experience, then I'd love to know where you're hunting.</P> <P>...</P> <P>To answer some of the earlier questions from another:</P> <P>1 - I wasn't creating much hate at all.  After using Sign, Stun, Admonishment, and Involuntary Curate, the monk could grab hate instantly with a single 6-800 hate taunt or even without taunting at all by just using a stance which provided taunt procs.  RARELY did the monk or paladin have any trouble taking hate from me within a hit or two.  The Sign line is a VERY good spell for pulling, in my opinion.  I truly can't stress this enough.  </P> <P>Unlike traditional pulling, I was able to bring the targets in hot and fast (without snaring, or stunning, or rooting, or what have you), infirmed (look but don't touch), and not very much upset at me.  </P> <P>2 - If I did take hits, I almost always ignored them unless they were significant.  It was always easy to toss an Atoning Fate on a target prior to running off.  Even if I did have to heal myself, I was nearly at full power most of the time since I was using manastone (used on the run), conjuor shards (used between pulls), and the illusionists buffs -  and I made it clear to the Fury that she was primary healer anyway.  I was backing up her healing between pulls, or when she called for it (which happened quite a bit, actually).  </P> <P>3 - I was the best class for pulling other than the monk...and for the most part, we were using her as the tank.  For chain pulling to truly work, you can't have the tank as the puller.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>Brigand (actual tank), Conj, Ranger, Dirge, Berserker, Fury (borrowed char to help guildie ding <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <DIV>not much healing, supreme killing spd, all go dpsing. =)</DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR>as long as a group have Templar + Bard + Chanter = superior low dps / long fight / slow xp.  =) <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Group consisted at various times of a Swashbuckler, Monk, Paladin, Wizard, Illusionist, Fury, Conjuror, and myself.  We pulled in roughly 40-45% experience per hour for levels 52-56.  In just over 2 hours of play, I pulled in 105% experience.  Every single person on the group that could level up, did so at least once.  The Fury almost leveled twice.  If that's your idea of slow experience, then I'd love to know where you're hunting.</P> <P>...</P> <P>To answer some of the earlier questions from another:</P> <P>1 - I wasn't creating much hate at all.  After using Sign, Stun, Admonishment, and Involuntary Curate, the monk could grab hate instantly with a single 6-800 hate taunt or even without taunting at all by just using a stance which provided taunt procs.  RARELY did the monk or paladin have any trouble taking hate from me within a hit or two.  The Sign line is a VERY good spell for pulling, in my opinion.  I truly can't stress this enough.  </P> <P>Unlike traditional pulling, I was able to bring the targets in hot and fast (without snaring, or stunning, or rooting, or what have you), infirmed (look but don't touch), and not very much upset at me.  </P> <P>2 - If I did take hits, I almost always ignored them unless they were significant.  It was always easy to toss an Atoning Fate on a target prior to running off.  Even if I did have to heal myself, I was nearly at full power most of the time since I was using manastone (used on the run), conjuor shards (used between pulls), and the illusionists buffs -  and I made it clear to the Fury that she was primary healer anyway.  I was backing up her healing between pulls, or when she called for it (which happened quite a bit, actually).  </P> <P>3 - I was the best class for pulling other than the monk...and for the most part, we were using her as the tank.  For chain pulling to truly work, you can't have the tank as the puller.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1. Snap aggro is quite possible with perfect timing. I was asking about the time just after pull where you implied a longer length of time than "instantly". Specifically, while they are getting aggro you could further debuff with Mark/Curate. If the monk is attacking, Sign is non-functional correct? What was the mob doing at this point? And were these Heroic^+ mobs? Which ties into my second line of questions....</P> <P>2. You were ignoring hits from what level of mobs? I can see how you might have been doing well on power with a Fury as MH, but you also assist healed and still maintained enough mana to chain-pull, chain-debuff, and chain-stun, etc? As far as Atoning Fate, that was enough to heal you from the damage you took from your pulls, if you got hit?</P> <P>3. I agree that in the "old-school" EQLive version of chain-pulling, that the MT shouldnt pull. But in this version, moving through the content with the tanker at the front and good CC as back-up has always been the most efficient play for me. In a worst case scenario, breaking a series of spawns and just cycling through them by moving the party as a whole works better, with less chance of resists, which you also dont broach, and, to reuse another acronym from the "dinosaurs", TPW. I will concede that they have made death in this game trivial in the extreme, so greater skill and patience to learn those skills had to be shown in EQLive for pulling. Even with the minimal risk to experience in EQ2, and the lack of corpse/shard recovery, I cant see the justification for having a high-risk support character playing front-line.</P> <P> </P> <P>Regards,</P> <P> </P> <P>Kazon Stormhammer/AB</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>As a Templar that's regularly taken up the chain-pulling role in cyclops/giant groups in PoF I do agree that we're pretty darned good at the task.  Kaz, the efficiency trick is to be in a camp with really fast spawns close by.  Fortunately, PoF has quite a few of these hehe.  We can actually take some pretty good hits.  At 56, I was chain-pulling cyclops for a group in PoF and sure I'd take a few shots here and there (the mobs were yellow con to me) but nothing serious if the tank is paying attention and you know how to pull through him and stop basically right behind him so he has a face full of mobs to target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Admittedly, I didn't pull with sign much.  I'd usually just run out pop off a smite and bring the mob in.  Mob was usually off of me before I took any serious amount of damage.  And like Kendricke says, just wait for GoC to proc or throw a Fate in and you're healthy again.  The main healer in our group was a Warden.  Tank was a zerker.  And we had a wizard, ranger and I forget now what class we had for our last slot.  Some other dps class I think... Brigand maybe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were pulling in good xp.  And I think the tank in his "rooted" defensive stance thingy helps keep things efficient since he takes very little damage and the fight doesn't stop until the tank screams that he wants some power.  In some cases, crawling as a group is the best way to go.  In others, get the tank planted where you want him and pull to him is a good way to go.  All depends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Coccinea_Maga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>1. Snap aggro is quite possible with perfect timing. I was asking about the time just after pull where you implied a longer length of time than "instantly". Specifically, while they are getting aggro you could further debuff with Mark/Curate. If the monk is attacking, Sign is non-functional correct? What was the mob doing at this point? And were these Heroic^+ mobs? Which ties into my second line of questions....</P> <P>2. You were ignoring hits from what level of mobs? I can see how you might have been doing well on power with a Fury as MH, but you also assist healed and still maintained enough mana to chain-pull, chain-debuff, and chain-stun, etc? As far as Atoning Fate, that was enough to heal you from the damage you took from your pulls, if you got hit?</P> <P>3. I agree that in the "old-school" EQLive version of chain-pulling, that the MT shouldnt pull. But in this version, moving through the content with the tanker at the front and good CC as back-up has always been the most efficient play for me. In a worst case scenario, breaking a series of spawns and just cycling through them by moving the party as a whole works better, with less chance of resists, which you also dont broach, and, to reuse another acronym from the "dinosaurs", TPW. I will concede that they have made death in this game trivial in the extreme, so greater skill and patience to learn those skills had to be shown in EQLive for pulling. Even with the minimal risk to experience in EQ2, and the lack of corpse/shard recovery, I cant see the justification for having a high-risk support character playing front-line.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P> </P> <P>I was the monk there so I will answer part of these questions.</P> <P>All mobs were 54-55 heroic ^^^.  We were pulling to a specific camp in the Clefts; only the puller was leaving the immediate area.</P> <P>Several times throughout the night, we had two to three mobs parked while we were working on another. The first one, I had no trouble gaining hate; the second and third, it usually took a taunt and less than 6sec of melee to pull it off of Kendricke. If they didn't peel off with that, I would use my group taunt. If I broke Sign early, they would usually just keep picking on me. Only once or twice, during the two and a half hours, did an orc decide that he thought Kendricke was a better target.</P> <P> </P> <P>For reference -- Kendricke dinged 56 about an hour in, I was 56 for the majority of my time there.  I was in my balanced stance, using Storm Stance (Adept I) - proc taunt, Infuriating Calm (Adept III) - single target taunt, and Agitate Spirit (Master I) - group taunt.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>_________</P> <P>Edited for grammar/syntax</P></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Coccinea_Maga on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:08 PM</span>

[Takeo1]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>   Zabumtik wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>   As a Templar that's regularly taken up the chain-pulling role in cyclops/giant groups in PoF I do agree that we're pretty darned good at the task.  Kaz, the efficiency trick is to be in a camp with really fast spawns close by.  Fortunately, PoF has quite a few of these hehe.  We can actually take some pretty good hits.  At 56, I was chain-pulling cyclops for a group in PoF and sure I'd take a few shots here and there (the mobs were yellow con to me) but nothing serious if the tank is paying attention and you know how to pull through him and stop basically right behind him so he has a face full of mobs to target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Admittedly, I didn't pull with sign much.  I'd usually just run out pop off a smite and bring the mob in.  Mob was usually off of me before I took any serious amount of damage.  And like Kendricke says, just wait for GoC to proc or throw a Fate in and you're healthy again.  The main healer in our group was a Warden.  Tank was a zerker.  And we had a wizard, ranger and I forget now what class we had for our last slot.  Some other dps class I think... Brigand maybe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   We were pulling in good xp.  And I think the tank in his "rooted" defensive stance thingy helps keep things efficient since he takes very little damage and the fight doesn't stop until the tank screams that he wants some power.  In some cases, crawling as a group is the best way to go.  In others, get the tank planted where you want him and pull to him is a good way to go.  All depends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>Zab, if the trick is mainly to have a low spawn timer, anybody with a ranged can pull hard and fast and do a run through aye? I agree that we can take a shot. My argument is simple. Barring a group full of robes and one tanker and a Temp, and even then it depends on the casters, why would a Templar pull with the obvious lacks in melee that we possess? Because we can heal ourselves? Because we can Soothe a wanderer and pull a single by it perhaps? You said so yourself - you pull witha smite. What is the difference between you and say - a scout class or second tanker pulling?</P> <P> </P> <P>Another common thread in this all that seems to be being missed. The druids were the main healers. Why couldnt they pull? After all we do have the superior healing ability right? Shouldnt we remain with the group? In your case this is particularly true, because you were just pulling with damage and then running back for a hand-off.</P> <P> </P> <P>Still - if it works for you, and you agree that it is a more efficient way of pulling, under any circumstances, even with a Scout in group as, in my opinion, a much more viable option than a Templar, thats is your choice my friend.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coccinea_Maga wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>1. Snap aggro is quite possible with perfect timing. I was asking about the time just after pull where you implied a longer length of time than "instantly". Specifically, while they are getting aggro you could further debuff with Mark/Curate. If the monk is attacking, Sign is non-functional correct? What was the mob doing at this point? And were these Heroic^+ mobs? Which ties into my second line of questions....</P> <P>2. You were ignoring hits from what level of mobs? I can see how you might have been doing well on power with a Fury as MH, but you also assist healed and still maintained enough mana to chain-pull, chain-debuff, and chain-stun, etc? As far as Atoning Fate, that was enough to heal you from the damage you took from your pulls, if you got hit?</P> <P>3. I agree that in the "old-school" EQLive version of chain-pulling, that the MT shouldnt pull. But in this version, moving through the content with the tanker at the front and good CC as back-up has always been the most efficient play for me. In a worst case scenario, breaking a series of spawns and just cycling through them by moving the party as a whole works better, with less chance of resists, which you also dont broach, and, to reuse another acronym from the "dinosaurs", TPW. I will concede that they have made death in this game trivial in the extreme, so greater skill and patience to learn those skills had to be shown in EQLive for pulling. Even with the minimal risk to experience in EQ2, and the lack of corpse/shard recovery, I cant see the justification for having a high-risk support character playing front-line.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P> </P> <P>I was the monk there so I will answer part of these questions.</P> <P>All mobs were 54-55 heroic ^^^.  We were pulling to a specific camp in the Clefts; only the puller was leaving the immediate area.</P> <P>Several times throughout the night, we had two to three mobs parked while we were working on another. The first one, I had no trouble gaining hate; the second and third, it usually took a taunt and less than 6sec of melee to pull it off of Kendricke. If they didn't peel off with that, I would use my group taunt. If I broke Sign early, they would usually just keep picking on me. Only once or twice, during the two and a half hours, did an orc decide that he thought Kendricke was a better target.</P> <P> </P> <P>For reference -- Kendricke dinged 56 about an hour in, I was 56 for the majority of my time there.  I was in my balanced stance, using Storm Stance (Adept I) - proc taunt, Infuriating Calm (Adept III) - single target taunt, and Agitate Spirit (Master I) - group taunt.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>_________</P> <P>Edited for grammar/syntax</P></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Coccinea_Maga on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:08 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you had no problems pulling aggro initially, then Kendricke's ability to take a hit is inconsequential. But so does any other classes ability to take a hit and pull with ranged. If you had issues at times, even for 6secs, would any other class in your group have been able to deal with those hits better? If so - why were they not pulling?</P> <P> </P> <P>Having two or three mobs parked would have required more CC than any Templar is capable of given our current abilities. It would seem to me that this has little bearing on the pull issue. If your paladin had pulled, his ability to miti/avoid in the midst of parking for your illusionist would have kept even more mana on the rails. If mana was that little of an issue, why not have the templar stay in, the paladin pull, hand-off to the illusionist for lock, and all dps and heal only as required? Was the paladin's dps required more in the group than Kendricke's?</P> <P> </P> <P>As I replied to Zab, this also bothers me. Templars as supposedly the best healer in game relegated to the job of primary pull duty in a game that contains no ability to truly Lull-split, in other words, very little skill is required in most grinding. Lets be honest. Single mob + damage = inc mob. Group mob + damage = inc mobs. The only difference now is the path of the puller to reduce possible adds, and the ability of the MT to recover initial aggro, and the ability of the puller to miti/avoid damage. After that is all standard practices: all assist MT, lock adds where applicable, kill, retarget, kill, keep locks, etc, etc.</P> <P> </P> <P>I truly fail to see how a templar can be better at pulling than any other in a full group, as I said before, barring a full group of robes, and even then it depends on the casters. But also, as I said to Zab, if it your opinion that the templar makes a viable pulling option over a paladin, thats is your choice as well. I am simply offering the alternate viewpoint based on my own knowledge of the group structure, our fundamental roles in them, and my own keen desire for efficiency. Using my own ways of leveling, in groups, I leveled Kaz very quickly. All of my time includes countless hours on merchant, prior to the absentee sales patch, guild-time, etc.  Serveral levels happened in as little as 30-45 minutes, in groups, in the common grinding zones: SH, EL, Zek, RV, RE, EF,  and LS. The "trick" was always the same. Avoid a camp. Keep moving through the content until you can go no further, then push a little anyway. Put the meat-shield on point, and move, move, move.</P> <P> </P> <P>But to each their own.</P> <P> </P> <P>Regards,</P> <P> </P> <P>Kazon Stormhammer/AB<BR></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P>Zab, if the trick is mainly to have a low spawn timer, anybody with a ranged can pull hard and fast and do a run through aye? I agree that we can take a shot. My argument is simple. Barring a group full of robes and one tanker and a Temp, and even then it depends on the casters, why would a Templar pull with the obvious lacks in melee that we possess? Because we can heal ourselves? Because we can Soothe a wanderer and pull a single by it perhaps? You said so yourself - you pull witha smite. What is the difference between you and say - a scout class or second tanker pulling?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because in a group killing situation, you want to maintain DPS levels as high as possible throughout the combat.  By virtue of having a lower DPS, the Templar makes a good puller since our loss of damage output has the least effect on the overall group output, particularly if we're already casting our Admonishment (Reproach/Rebuke) and other debuffs pre-taunt.</P> <P>Using a scout, fighter, or mage doesn't make as much sense, since every moment that group member is out pulling is a moment that the group is deprived of hundreds of DPS. </P> <P>Remember, we have one of the few spells in the game that allows us to pull a target in a way that prevents it from attacking at all and yet to still move at full speed.  This is an incredible pulling spell.  It also allows us to pull and "park" the target while waiting for the tank to finish up the first target and switch to the second.  If you use any other class for pulling, you've got to be tighter on your pull timing as well as capable of handling hits while the fighter switches to the new target.  <BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P>Another common thread in this all that seems to be being missed. The druids were the main healers. Why couldnt they pull? After all we do have the superior healing ability right? Shouldnt we remain with the group? In your case this is particularly true, because you were just pulling with damage and then running back for a hand-off.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The Druid couldn't handle the damage as well as I could, and certainly couldn't prevent or lock down the target with nearly the efficiency I could.  From a group standpoint, I was a stronger puller than a druid - Warden <EM>or</EM> Fury.  Tell me any pulling methods by which a druid of either path could pull as quickly, as relatively effortlessly, and with as little power drain as I was able to. </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR>If you had no problems pulling aggro initially, then Kendricke's ability to take a hit is inconsequential. But so does any other classes ability to take a hit and pull with ranged. If you had issues at times, even for 6secs, would any other class in your group have been able to deal with those hits better? If so - why were they not pulling? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Again, the name of the game was total experience per hour.  Use a scout for pulling and that's at least 300-400 DPS you're losing right there for every moment that scout's pulling and not killing.  Use a Templar for pulling and you're dropping ~100 DPS on average.  We're dead last for DPS generation in all classes. </P> <P>Something else you're ignoring here, is that I wasn't taking hits.  I wasn't taking hits because the spell stops the target from attacking in the first place.  It's standing there, dumbfounded, infirmed, completely unable to do anything but move for 16 seconds.  This is a LONG time during combats that we were ripping through in 25-40 seconds each - giving the monk ample time to switch to the new target.  Few other classes have that same ability, and certainly fewer have the ability to deal with mistakes as well as an armor clad Templar.</P> <P>Remember - 45%+ experience for everyone in the group every hour.  No potions - just vitality.  That's at level 55/56.  Tell me the last time you pulled that in.</P> <P>Honestly, if you don't like the tactic, don't use it.  However, unless you're willing to give the tactic an honest go, you're playing Devil's Advocate with no real experience in the subject.  You're arguing theory against practice, and I've been working on weeks honing the techniques involved.  Give it an honest go or don't.  Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't going to bring you anything near the same experience you'd get if you just gave it a go.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>12-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Zab, if the trick is mainly to have a low spawn timer, anybody with a ranged can pull hard and fast and do a run through aye? I agree that we can take a shot. My argument is simple. Barring a group full of robes and one tanker and a Temp, and even then it depends on the casters, why would a Templar pull with the obvious lacks in melee that we possess? Because we can heal ourselves? Because we can Soothe a wanderer and pull a single by it perhaps? You said so yourself - you pull witha smite. What is the difference between you and say - a scout class or second tanker pulling?</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Any class can pull with the right person playing the class.  I have yet to hear any person tell people Templars are the best pulling class in the game (and be serious).  However, I have heard people say Templars make good pullers because of the spells they posses.  I play an Inquisitor, Berserker, Dirge, and Necro.  I can chain pull with any of them in a group (if the Berserker is not MT of course, and even then I have chain pulled, just need the right spot / group).  The reason I can chain pull with any class I have played is not because of the class (they all chain pull differently), but because of the player.  Skills and spells help a class to chain pull more efficiently and safer.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Another common thread in this all that seems to be being missed. The druids were the main healers. Why couldnt they pull? After all we do have the superior healing ability right? Shouldnt we remain with the group? In your case this is particularly true, because you were just pulling with damage and then running back for a hand-off.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>The druid in the above group did not pull because they where incapable of pulling as fast as the Templar.  Not because Templars are inherintly better suited for it, but because of the player ability to keep mobs incoming and knowing when to pull and when not to.  In other words, the Player had better skill chain pulling.</FONT></P> <P>Still - if it works for you, and you agree that it is a more efficient way of pulling, under any circumstances, even with a Scout in group as, in my opinion, a much more viable option than a Templar, thats is your choice my friend.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Actually all I have heard from Templars is the horrid DPS they have (not arguing that).  So if a Templar can keep a group alive and chain pull, why would you want to have a DPS class running around getting another encounter and lose their DPS?  Hmm...  Lose the 20 - 120 DPS of a Templar or lose the 500+ DPS of a Ranger...  I would select the Templar, not sure about you.</FONT></P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P>If you had no problems pulling aggro initially, then Kendricke's ability to take a hit is inconsequential. But so does any other classes ability to take a hit and pull with ranged. If you had issues at times, even for 6secs, would any other class in your group have been able to deal with those hits better? If so - why were they not pulling?</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>This has already been answered.  Player skill.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Having two or three mobs parked would have required more CC than any Templar is capable of given our current abilities. It would seem to me that this has little bearing on the pull issue. If your paladin had pulled, his ability to miti/avoid in the midst of parking for your illusionist would have kept even more mana on the rails. If mana was that little of an issue, why not have the templar stay in, the paladin pull, hand-off to the illusionist for lock, and all dps and heal only as required? Was the paladin's dps required more in the group than Kendricke's?</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Why have another class chain pull when the Templar has the least DPS.  If the group can stay alive and the Templar can pull at the same time, why would you not want the Templar pulling?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>As I replied to Zab, this also bothers me. Templars as supposedly the best healer in game relegated to the job of primary pull duty in a game that contains no ability to truly Lull-split, in other words, very little skill is required in most grinding. Lets be honest. Single mob + damage = inc mob. Group mob + damage = inc mobs. The only difference now is the path of the puller to reduce possible adds, and the ability of the MT to recover initial aggro, and the ability of the puller to miti/avoid damage. After that is all standard practices: all assist MT, lock adds where applicable, kill, retarget, kill, keep locks, etc, etc.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Do not forget Social agro.  Have wiped more times then I can remember because people never take social agro into consideration when pulling.  And pulling a mob takes almost no skill at all.  However, knowing when to pull takes knowledge of the group you are with, the mobs you are fighting, and the area you are fighting in.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>I truly fail to see how a templar can be better at pulling than any other in a full group, as I said before, barring a full group of robes, and even then it depends on the casters. But also, as I said to Zab, if it your opinion that the templar makes a viable pulling option over a paladin, thats is your choice as well. I am simply offering the alternate viewpoint based on my own knowledge of the group structure, our fundamental roles in them, and my own keen desire for efficiency. </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Who ever said Templars are the best chain pullers, they are efficient though.</FONT></P> <P>Using my own ways of leveling, in groups, I leveled Kaz very quickly. All of my time includes countless hours on merchant, prior to the absentee sales patch, guild-time, etc.  Serveral levels happened in as little as 30-45 minutes, in groups, in the common grinding zones: SH, EL, Zek, RV, RE, EF,  and LS. The "trick" was always the same. Avoid a camp. Keep moving through the content until you can go no further, then push a little anyway. Put the meat-shield on point, and move, move, move.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>And that is partly true.  Chain pulling is far more efficient considering time spent when in the right areas.  With the expansion, multiple chain pulling spots have appeared which makes the "kill and scoot" approach out dated.  However, both play styles are available to everybody.  Until AoE groups become available nothing will beat chain pulling for exp.</FONT></P> <P>But to each their own.</P> <P> </P> <P>Regards,</P> <P> </P> <P>Kazon Stormhammer/AB<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Never claimed that Templar were the best pullers in the game.  But, like others have said, once I debuff and throw up a reactive or reverence I could either try to land a smite or two while the group kills the mob in a few seconds or run off to find another mob for the group.  Yes, it comes down to the player/puller who knows best what the group can handle.  And who knows that better than a healer?  While, for my groups I've had a healer staying with the group, I could probably solo heal and pull for a group without much trouble.  Given that it's a good group of course.  With the way things are right now anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zabumtik wrote:<BR> <DIV>Never claimed that Templar were the best pullers in the game.  But, like others have said, once I debuff and throw up a reactive or reverence I could either try to land a smite or two while the group kills the mob in a few seconds or run off to find another mob for the group.  Yes, it comes down to the player/puller who knows best what the group can handle.  And who knows that better than a healer?  While, for my groups I've had a healer staying with the group, I could probably solo heal and pull for a group without much trouble.  Given that it's a good group of course.  With the way things are right now anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Never said you did Zab. I said if you think they are under any circumstances. I read you right....but who knows better than a healer? Supposedly the puller. Its just great if they are both eh? I disagree. The whole concept still eludes me, and it isnt because I am dense. Look - we are healers. Why are we pulling? Why is there even another healer in group for normal grind?</P> <P> </P> <P>Its all good.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <span class=date_text>12-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 AM</span>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P>Zab, if the trick is mainly to have a low spawn timer, anybody with a ranged can pull hard and fast and do a run through aye? I agree that we can take a shot. My argument is simple. Barring a group full of robes and one tanker and a Temp, and even then it depends on the casters, why would a Templar pull with the obvious lacks in melee that we possess? Because we can heal ourselves? Because we can Soothe a wanderer and pull a single by it perhaps? You said so yourself - you pull witha smite. What is the difference between you and say - a scout class or second tanker pulling?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because in a group killing situation, you want to maintain DPS levels as high as possible throughout the combat.  By virtue of having a lower DPS, the Templar makes a good puller since our loss of damage output has the least effect on the overall group output, particularly if we're already casting our Admonishment (Reproach/Rebuke) and other debuffs pre-taunt.</P> <P>Using a scout, fighter, or mage doesn't make as much sense, since every moment that group member is out pulling is a moment that the group is deprived of hundreds of DPS. </P> <P>Remember, we have one of the few spells in the game that allows us to pull a target in a way that prevents it from attacking at all and yet to still move at full speed.  This is an incredible pulling spell.  It also allows us to pull and "park" the target while waiting for the tank to finish up the first target and switch to the second.  If you use any other class for pulling, you've got to be tighter on your pull timing as well as capable of handling hits while the fighter switches to the new target. </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:40 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know how dps works Kendricke. Thank you for the heads up though. The fact that we have such a low dps is offset by our advantage in healing power. I would think that having a Templar alone in a grind group to heal, and have the second healer spot filled with an additional dps class would be even more efficient. Please show me how it wouldnt? Our healing is more efficient, especially over the long haul? Instead - in this group you have a perfectly capable healer, the druid, healing, while the slot that could be taken by another dps is taken by....a Templar, you. As you have said, other than this pulling, and your assist healing, what exactly did you bring to the group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, as your MT demonstrated, VERY rarely does the puller have to worry about taking hits. Snap aggro remember? Tighter timing isnt always the name of the game. You can chain-pull with a knowledge of mez ranges and a hot-key.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try -  /g "Need a hand-off on %t..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P>Another common thread in this all that seems to be being missed. The druids were the main healers. Why couldnt they pull? After all we do have the superior healing ability right? Shouldnt we remain with the group? In your case this is particularly true, because you were just pulling with damage and then running back for a hand-off.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The Druid couldn't handle the damage as well as I could, and certainly couldn't prevent or lock down the target with nearly the efficiency I could.  From a group standpoint, I was a stronger puller than a druid - Warden <EM>or</EM> Fury.  Tell me any pulling methods by which a druid of either path could pull as quickly, as relatively effortlessly, and with as little power drain as I was able to. </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:40 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>The druid can lob a spell even better than you can, and certainly didnt really NEED to lock a mob down. Your MT? If you had more than two in camp you werent maintaining CC anyway, your Chanter was...so where was your Chanter when you were pulling the second one in?</P> <P>Here is a method :</P> <P>Druid lights off with any DD/DoT and drags, your phenomenal tanker snaps aggro on pull. Druid assists with kill until about 20-25%, hits HoTs ( especially with a Monk), maybe lays in a DH, eats manastone, shard, etc, pulls another, hands-off...etc. I notice something missing here. No Templar at all.</P> <P>Druid doesnt get hit, and your spot is filled with ANOTHER DPS. Thus the mobs die even more quickly. You gonna ask me if I have tried this?</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR>If you had no problems pulling aggro initially, then Kendricke's ability to take a hit is inconsequential. But so does any other classes ability to take a hit and pull with ranged. If you had issues at times, even for 6secs, would any other class in your group have been able to deal with those hits better? If so - why were they not pulling? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Again, the name of the game was total experience per hour.  Use a scout for pulling and that's at least 300-400 DPS you're losing right there for every moment that scout's pulling and not killing.  Use a Templar for pulling and you're dropping ~100 DPS on average.  We're dead last for DPS generation in all classes. </P> <P>Something else you're ignoring here, is that I wasn't taking hits.  I wasn't taking hits because the spell stops the target from attacking in the first place.  It's standing there, dumbfounded, infirmed, completely unable to do anything but move for 16 seconds.  This is a LONG time during combats that we were ripping through in 25-40 seconds each - giving the monk ample time to switch to the new target.  Few other classes have that same ability, and certainly fewer have the ability to deal with mistakes as well as an armor clad Templar.</P> <P>Remember - 45%+ experience for everyone in the group every hour.  No potions - just vitality.  That's at level 55/56.  Tell me the last time you pulled that in.</P> <P>Honestly, if you don't like the tactic, don't use it.  However, unless you're willing to give the tactic an honest go, you're playing Devil's Advocate with no real experience in the subject.  You're arguing theory against practice, and I've been working on weeks honing the techniques involved.  Give it an honest go or don't.  Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't going to bring you anything near the same experience you'd get if you just gave it a go.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>12-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:40 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Exactly. And your spot could be filled with another DPS if you had a healer in group already, we are equal - or if our healing is better, why not have another DPS and you heal and take on even harder mobs?  Something else you are ignoring Kendricke, you wouldnt have been taking hits anyways. Your MT had snap aggro almost all the time. Very rarely did your monk have more than 6secs of lost aggro-control.</P> <P> </P> <P>And I did tell you last the TIMES I pulled that kind of experience, multiple times with crawling in the zones I listed. My best was 3 levels in two hours, granted low-level Antonica content, but 12-15. And that was with eating some chow and a bio or two.</P> <P> </P> <P>This isnt so much about the tactic Kendricke as it is about what you are saying about my Templar. My Templar is a healer not a puller. We are the best healers still right? Our lotto heals offset our low dps a bit, so why shouldnt we take the primary heal spots and fill the other slots with one tanker, and four dps? And whether you want to believe it or not, I have a frightening amount of experience "chain-pulling", but you would have had to have actually read my posts to pick that up.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am not playing Devil's Advocate. I am playing a healer. What are you playing? So honestly, if the class is only in need of some tweaks boyo, why are you relegated to pull to get such great xps? Its not about the experience, really, though like I said I have better ways of getting it. Its about the concept. But its not your concept, so why give it a go? </P> <P> </P> <P>/grunt</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Edit: first paragraph edit for content. "Thank you for the heads up though <STRIKE>sweetheart</STRIKE>."</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <span class=date_text>12-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>If you don't like the tactic, don't use it. </P> <P>Look, please don't take one of the few genuine attempts at a helpful thread within this forum and try to turn it into another "I hate Kendricke" smear campaign (c'mon - "sweetheart?").  Honestly, is there no post I can make within these forums that isn't going to involve some schoolyard confrontation like this? </P> <P>It's a very situational tactic.  It's not useful all the time or even most of the time.  However, when it works, it works very well.  I know this because I've been using the tactic.  I've been using the tactic over the past two months finding better ways to do it.  Believe it or not, I've also used the tactic when I am the only healer.  In fact, during that Clefts group we keep bringing up here, there were at least three times I took on the group's full healing (the Fury did have to AFK a few times) while I continued to chain pull.  I would park the target, and then drop a few heals on the group...pull, park, debuff, heal - pull, park, debuff, heal - pull, park, debuff, heal...</P> <P>It's possible.  It may not seem possible.  I may be an utterly exceptional player.  I doubt it, but if that's the case, then I apologize for even attempting to point out a tactic that is useful for me.  How silly of me to attempt to post something useful within these forums because it doesn't conform to your ideals of what our class should be capable of or even focused on. </P> <P>Not everyone enjoys playing the way you do.  The entire point of this post is to point out ways to use spells we have access to since Live Update 13.  It's how we share experiences regarding the strengths of Templars - this being one of the lesser discussed tactics. </P> <P>Please, please, please try to ignore the fact that this post has my name in it at all.  Please refrain from the personal attacks, snide remarks, or bald faced attempts to push an agenda.  Let the post get back on track.  There is - believe it or not - useful information here for some Templars.  If you feel Furies make great pullers, there are Fury forums for that. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>Quite to the contrary- I wasnt attempting to make a "smear" campaign, so dont flatter yourself. It was an attempt at sarcasm, perhaps it was misplaced, but it most assuredly wasnt a schoolyard confrontaion. If I think ill of you, I will tell you so, and not bandy words. Perhaps you dont get talked to like a man much, but from me you will, and would, if you return the favour.  So, if you maintain with me the idea that I have at least basic knowledge about this game in our exchanges, I will show you the courtesy you have coming as a result, if you dont, expect a little sarcasm as a result at the very least. If you can not take criticism about your ideas, like I am willing to, and I have given a few in this thread, than I suggest you not post if you are that sensitive. We had this discussion regarding GoC when I didnt have a clue either, and dw had nothing to do with it. Remember?</P> <P>Look - dont take yourself so serious. I told you the reasoning is sound, in fact, I agreed with several parts of your intial post. My arguements against it, as it related to our class were also sound in my opinion. You, however, are attempting to take this into a personal realm. If my post above is so bad, by all means have Raijinn edit, or I will do it now...indeed I will.</P> <P>And, finally, again, I have chainpulled with every class I have played in this game. I also learned the tactic nigh six years ago in another life with a bard. Perhaps you are not picking up that this is not just an argument about the tactic, and I was hoping a friendly one until now, but also an argument about the group structure, and the state of our class now. Isnt that what all of this is about now? </P> <P>Please also refrain from accusing me of derailing, snide remarks (it was sarcasm!), personal agendas, and personal attacks, just like the ones you made at the end of your post, unless you are willing to play it all the way through.</P> <DIV>Sometimes Kendricke, you really amaze me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>The problem with this situation is that the group consisted of level 55 players, against level 55 mobs, using an enchanter and two healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone who likes challenge knows that the situation described is in the realm of 'low' challenge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You wouldn't even have to leave the zone and could be doing the raptors near Cazels mesa, 59^^^ with the chance to spawn Ament (who drops VERY sellable loot) chain pulling raptors and wandering giants and having a lot more fun.  There are some other places in POF I would like to say here but I don't know if they would be level appropriate for that group, and I understand that Kendrikes guild may be more concerned with faction than I am.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any situation where two healers exist, and chain pulls occur, if the healers are not throwing up heals at all times, then your machine needs more oil and less baby.</DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Quite to the contrary- I wasnt attempting to make a "smear" campaign, so dont flatter yourself. <FONT color=#ffff00>It was an attempt at sarcasm</FONT>, perhaps it was misplaced, but it most assuredly wasnt a schoolyard confrontaion. If I think ill of you, I will tell you so, and not bandy words. Perhaps you dont get talked to like a man much, but from me you will, and would, if you return the favour.  So, if you maintain with me the idea that I have at least basic knowledge about this game in our exchanges, I will show you the courtesy you have coming as a result, if you dont, expect a little sarcasm as a result at the very least. If you can not take criticism about your ideas, like I am willing to, and I have given a few in this thread, than I suggest you not post if you are that sensitive. We had this discussion regarding GoC when I didnt have a clue either, and dw had nothing to do with it. Remember?</P> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Sarcasm is very difficult to pull off on a forum unless you actually tell people "this is sarcasm."  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Quite to the contrary- I wasnt attempting to make a "smear" campaign, so dont flatter yourself. <FONT color=#ffff00>It was an attempt at sarcasm</FONT>, perhaps it was misplaced, but it most assuredly wasnt a schoolyard confrontaion. If I think ill of you, I will tell you so, and not bandy words. Perhaps you dont get talked to like a man much, but from me you will, and would, if you return the favour.  So, if you maintain with me the idea that I have at least basic knowledge about this game in our exchanges, I will show you the courtesy you have coming as a result, if you dont, expect a little sarcasm as a result at the very least. If you can not take criticism about your ideas, like I am willing to, and I have given a few in this thread, than I suggest you not post if you are that sensitive. We had this discussion regarding GoC when I didnt have a clue either, and dw had nothing to do with it. Remember?</P> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Sarcasm is very difficult to pull off on a forum unless you actually tell people "this is sarcasm."  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes - I noticed that.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Espyderman]

Templar job is simple. Keep the tank up, and the group if you can. The rest is icing on the cake.<BR><BR>Why the book?

[Kendricke]

<div></div>Per recent posts from ColdMetal and others, I'm reviving this poor old post from the lands of the dead.  Bookmark it if you wish, or feel free to participate in the discussion if you have anything constructive to add.

[Diapause]

<div></div>Is that a wordsmith way of saying you are bumping your own post? Which against the Forum rules if you didn't know.

[Andu]

<COUGH> necro post <COUGH><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Diapause wrote:<div></div>Is that a wordsmith way of saying you are bumping your own post? Which against the Forum rules if you didn't know.<hr></blockquote><p>Cleared it with Raijinn BEFORE posting it.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Cleared it with Raijinn BEFORE posting it.</p><hr></blockquote>nm, I think "all are equal but some are m..." is enough.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:07 AM</span></p>

[Xaax]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Takeo101 wrote:<div></div><p>As I replied to Zab, this also bothers me. Templars as supposedly the best healer in game relegated to the job of primary pull duty in a game that contains no ability to truly Lull-split, in other words, very little skill is required in most grinding.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I just about spit my tea all over my computer when I read that. :smileyvery-happy: Just thinking of EQ1 and those monks that used to die every 3-5 pulls, no need for buffs, just rez them and send them out for more mobs... I just cant wait till EQ2 gets mobs that quad for 1k+ per and we are still the least needed in a group so , "to the job of primary pull duty " Just tooooooo funny</p><p>I also agree that a chanter and 2 healers was way over kill for even mobs. Ill also bet the chanter pet could have pulled better then a Templar could have .Then again glad it was good xp for ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I can pull with our mez + stuns with little problem but tend to roam more then not. I sat in one spot in EQ1 too much, much more fun to have the tank run in and grab all the groups in a room/hall/whatever and tank them all at once. Got to love Zerker tanks and AE damage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>