No Shard Recovery = Even Less Need for Healers

[bigmak20]

.. ouch. Already requires fairly high-end encounters to need healing.  Now there's even LESS risk of dying?  In fact -- dying is a viable way to teleport out of a zone.  lol I don't get it. <div></div>

[bigmak20]

.. whoops!  I'll respond to my own post.  Guess that means I'm talking to myself (again)! No shard recovery = Most of the customer service requests go away -- less service; more money for SOE.

[Nari]

Will the death penalty be increased then if you don't have to go get your shard?  Why did they make shard merchants then?  I don't get it. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

I had to admit I was a little baffled by this one.  I mean the penalty for dieing is still there.   As for healers being less useful?  I can't think of why there would be a huge drop off in healer need.   That full Rez we get at 50 has saved my group on plenty of occassions and is a lot more convienient than running back.

[bigmak20]

One of the reasons to have a healer is the ability to rez the party members w/o the shard run.  True; not the only reason.  And other classes can rez.  But I fail to see how this is actually a problem that needed 'fixing'.  It's just somewhat baffling. Dying is a major 'who cares' at this point.  Every time the game takes a step in that direction it lessens the need for healers.

[Nari]

Oops, I meant "experience debt penalty." Right now, the only thing that makes me cautious in some zones is the threat of leaving my shard somewhere that I can't retrieve it.  If this threat is taken away, it may promote exploring but will remove the fear of dying for sure. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>One of the reasons to have a healer is the ability to rez the party members w/o the shard run.  True; not the only reason.  And other classes can rez.  But I fail to see how this is actually a problem that needed 'fixing'.  It's just somewhat baffling.<BR><BR>Dying is a major 'who cares' at this point. <BR><BR>Every time the game takes a step in that direction it lessens the need for healers.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think you're questioning a larger game mechanic (one which I agree with you about believe it or not) which effects a lot more than just healers.  I can see both sides of this to be honest.  A week or so ago I and a few guildmates ran in somewhere we shouldn't (our fault) and tried a few more times but were unable to get back to our shards even dieing twice more.   Now is it really fair that we have to make up our debt with like 16% less power, health, etc..?  Should we have to pay 20gp PER shard to get it back?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now judging from your posts I read I'm guessing you played EQ1 as I did and you can give me stories of spending hours just getting back to your corpse.   Its unfortunate but those times have changed.   The MMO market is considerably more competitive and in order to expand it they have to tap into the less serious player base.   The shard thing is a deterrent to that playerbase who could possibly make up a considerable amount if the subscribers. </DIV>

[Nari]

By your statements, would you apply that (the whole concept of making things less troublesome but more appealing) to our templars? By that logic, shouldn't we be a bit more glamorous to play?  I do look quite stunning in my platemail, but shouldn't we be able to guilt our congregations into showering us with gold? OK, I might have had too much sugar at lunch... PS: The new <font color="#ffccff"><b>Radar-X</b></font> is pretty cool. You're not as entertaining, but other people are starting to succeed at convincing me that they do not exist to entertain me.  Such a pity... Seriously though, you bring up some good points. <div></div>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>  Now is it really fair that we have to make up our debt with like 16% less power, health, etc..?  Should we have to pay 20gp PER shard to get it back?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm going to try this argument next time I'm in Vegas.  "Er, Mr. Pit Boss, is it really fair that I lose my 20 bucks on that hand ... just because, well, I knew I could lose it when I put it on the table ... and, in fact, that's the whole reason I put it on the table - for the thrill of winning or losing.  May I please have a redo anyway?" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This "game" is rapidly becoming an illusion of gaming.</DIV>

[Curati]

<P>I really like this move. One night I lost a total of 9 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shards because I couldt get back to were I was hunting because I revived into a spot that cornerd me and no mater what I did I would get agro and die again and lose yet another shard. was a very frustrating night. Corpse retrievals sucked and so did shards. There nothing worse then having to get up erly the next day and be in a raid the night before then you FINALY get to your goal after several hours and you wipe. Now you have to spend at least another hour or more recovering from the wipe wereas now the party can opt to just try it another time when the party members arent tired and stuff and nobody loses sleep. I DO advocate that the death penalty be raised to 25% equipment breakage and double the debt...this alone should make folks at least more cautious about how they handle the encounters....that or bring back group debt. I believe there has to be a HUGE penalty for death...its what make dangerious areas dangerious after all. I wouldnt mind if they eliminated death and brought back losing exp...(just no deleveling yo)</P> <P> </P> <P>thats my two cents</P> <P> </P> <P>and to the original poster ...this change does not eliminate healers or make us less important every group ive been in since yesterday (about 5 groups) nothing has changed about our gameplay except that maybe onece we wiped so we all just reved repaired and wwent and hunted something else instead.....because we didnt have to waiste time on shard retrieval</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>----Curatve</P>

[bigmak20]

In those rare circumstance you are being revived in aggro, etc, CS can and does (or used to) step in to help out.  That's really the bottom line here.  They are cutting back and looking for ways to scale down service. Even in WoW you have to recover your "shard".  Can't rememebr if they call it "shard" but you have to go back and get your spirit. The potential for a wipe and the pia it is to get your shard back is part of the risk factor imo.  I hate to see it gone. They added the shard buy back and so forth to see if CS requests would diminish and when they didn't drop off the way they wanted they eliminated shards. Relevance to the us?  Gaming mechanics are being altered not for the game's benefit but to manage the bottom line.  It's a business after all so I don't fault that; it's just the way it is. I think it hurts the game since it diminishes the need for healers.  You don't go into that risky zone thinking you -must- have enough healers to keep everyone standing you now can think "no problem if we wipe it's just a quick and free teleport out". <div></div>

[RipFlex]

<P>So, this means I be seeing alot of Zerging Lemmings from an Instance starting point to a Named mob each time they die?</P> <P>I actually perfer the old old at launch death penalties, stopped people doing stupid things.</P> <P> </P>

[Donte]

<P>hehe, yup.  Zerg for the win now.  One less reason to have a healer. We've been do instances and names without healers lately.</P> <P>Not that a healer isnt nice, but not a neccesity like it used to be. Even more so with the rediculas "no shard" thing now.</P> <P>When SWG had this people would "suicide clone" as we called it to get back to base.  They fixed this in that game though.</P>

[KingOfF00LS]

I can see both the pros and cons of the whole corpse/shard retrieval issue (especially as someone who used to raid heavily in EQ1).  But I don't see how this makes healers less useful.  I don't know what named mobs you people are fighting, but the ones we do there's no way they could be done without a healer.  I supposed if we were just camping green or blue names then maybe, but who's getting upgrades from green named mobs anyway? I say you still easily need a healer to do anything made for your level. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR><BR>PS: The new <FONT color=#ffccff><B>Radar-X</B></FONT> is pretty cool. You're not as entertaining, but other people are starting to succeed at convincing me that they do not exist to entertain me.  Such a pity... Seriously though, you bring up some good points.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My current employment requires I use a little more....I wouldn't say finesse but restraint.  If you want entertainment I'd recommend more time in NGD and I can give you a list of peoples whose posts you should read frequently.</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>  Now is it really fair that we have to make up our debt with like 16% less power, health, etc..?  Should we have to pay 20gp PER shard to get it back?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm going to try this argument next time I'm in Vegas.  "Er, Mr. Pit Boss, is it really fair that I lose my 20 bucks on that hand ... just because, well, I knew I could lose it when I put it on the table ... and, in fact, that's the whole reason I put it on the table - for the thrill of winning or losing.  May I please have a redo anyway?" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This "game" is rapidly becoming an illusion of gaming.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your logic isn't bad man but its not going to please the casual player base which a lot of people won't admit are becoming a significant part of this community.   Is it good?  Nah I don't think it is.  Is it going to change?  I seriously doubt it.   We old school MMO players are pretty much becoming dinosaurs of a different age and all the old mechanics we miss are changing.

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>  We old school MMO players are pretty much becoming dinosaurs of a different age and all the old mechanics we miss are changing. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yup, as of late this has been my thinking more and more also.  I guess it's been obvious for a long time, but it's not really something you want to believe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There may still be some hope, but it's not likely to come from the major companies.  They'll just go for the buck, and, after all, they are businesses.  And they are parts of major corporations, which means they have to function under large corporate structure.  Soooooo =) ... is this game merely being set up to add PvP and port to the PS3 ... most likely so, in which event, they will focus primarily on the predictable audience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just going to hope that the market will start fragmenting more, and we will see more and more focus marketing.  In that case, it seems likely that one or more of the smaller game-makers will target the dinosaurs =)   In the meantime, well, er uh .... I dunno lol. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing still puzzles me though ... why does it seem the newer crops of gamers seek something so different from what people sought merely a few years ago.   Interesting phenomenon .................</DIV>

[SG_01]

<DIV>Hrmm, I have to agree that this death pentalty is far too low. Just a few points of exp debt and some item damage feels like nothing. What would be interresting, in a way to make priests more wanted would be to increase the death penalty you get from hitting the revive button last longer, and be a bit more severe (and leave the death penalty when rezzed the same). Otherwise, perhaps a timer on the revive button, which increases as you die more often? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah well, perhaps Sony will result to other options, I don't know, there are alternatives to leaving a shard, and still have death be meaningfull.</DIV>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing still puzzles me though ... why does it seem the newer crops of gamers seek something so different from what people sought merely a few years ago.   Interesting phenomenon .................</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is interesting.  Some people in games like to get a thrill from risking something, and others find something else fun.  It reminds me of how different people enjoy playing pool.  Some people won't play unless they have money riding on the game, and others will only play if there isn't.  Both groups enjoy pool, but some of them enjoy the risk more than the game, and others enjoy the game only without the risk.</P> <P>When it comes to death penalties, I think their root lies in old pnp rpgs, where you got attached to a character, you roleplayed it, and if it died, you lost it.  Permadeath doesn't work well in MMOs, but they wanted to try to make death mean something anyway.  Well, it doesn't.  Even mobs don't die forever.  You can kill Varsoon a billion times, and he's still there the next time.  You can make death a pain and an annoyance, but it never becomes something that you outright wan't to avoid because of your love for your character.  If you lose your corpse and your stuff, it still isn't your character that you lost, it is its possesions, which are not the same thing.  In my mind, death penalties for an existing character are an entirely different concept from true death in an rpg, which can be traumatic if you aren't accustomed to it happening.</P> <P>Most non-roleplayers hate permadeath, and many hate any kind of penalty, just like some people don't want to bet on pool games.</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Alephin on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 AM</span>

[Takeo1]

<P>I have no issue with a full death penalty. If you die - and you dont have a rezzer, you are screwed, aye just like an rpg. This debt thing is good for the style of play here though, and like those poor sods with the old Jedi in SWG, ya might lose a few if you went hard-core dead and gone....</P> <P> </P> <P>But I tell ya - my stock in Kaz would go up a bit...haha!</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[sparhaw]

ok i think what your missing here is that we arn't "ressers" we are "healers" sure maybe there isnt as big a penalty for dieing but you still dont want to have to redo somthing your working on and you want to be able to do it without being so much higher than the actual lvl that it is pointless. in wow you need to go back to your corpse as a spirit so unless your in an instance the penalty is that you had to run bakc ot your corpse in an instance you have to start back at the start but stuff usualy isnt respawned so it isnt that bad. here its now pretty much the same thing exept a larger dur cost and you have to work your way back to where you were no matter where that might have been. we are still needed and noone will ever go "pft a healer? god your useless stay away" unless of course they are not quite right in the head. <div></div>

[Andu]

<P><SPAN>Well, I was at the bottom of Stormhold last night. Myself and two friends were playing lvl 20 or so characters. My friends are fairly new to the game and so the concepts of shards and xp debt and so on are not that familiar to them.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>We bit off a bit more than we can chew and got ourselves killed. Or at least two of us did, the third a monk feigned death and escaped. In his excitement he used his feather not on me but on my other friend who was playing a bard. So they found themselves at the bottom of Stormhold with no healer, no way to rez me and no clue as to how to get out.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>We had a laugh briefly and then I started thinking about the problem of how they were going to get out safely and rejoin me at the top.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>It took them 2 seconds to say “hang on we’ll join you”, run into a room full of mobs and suicide. Hey presto, they are teleported back to the front of the zone, rejoin me and one heroic blue encounter later (about 20 seconds nowadays) all the xp debt was gone.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Having played this since launch, the concept of the suicide teleport was new to me and to be honest a total anethma. However, to them it was just an easy way to travel, for little to no cost.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Now, the whole issue of whether this impacts on healers aside, as a game mechanic this is just wrong. I mean, why bother having death at all except as a means of transport. You may as well just do away with it, give everyone a permanent ward so they cannot die and let them play the game like that. It would cut out all the tedious armour repairing which might put off new players and would allow soloers to access content that currently they cannot get at. Yada yada yada.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Like someone said above, this isn’t a game anymore. How can it be when you can never “lose”. It’s just something you do to waste your time.</SPAN></P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>  We old school MMO players are pretty much becoming dinosaurs of a different age and all the old mechanics we miss are changing. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yup, as of late this has been my thinking more and more also.  I guess it's been obvious for a long time, but it's not really something you want to believe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There may still be some hope, but it's not likely to come from the major companies.  They'll just go for the buck, and, after all, they are businesses.  And they are parts of major corporations, which means they have to function under large corporate structure.  Soooooo =) ... is this game merely being set up to add PvP and port to the PS3 ... most likely so, in which event, they will focus primarily on the predictable audience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just going to hope that the market will start fragmenting more, and we will see more and more focus marketing.  In that case, it seems likely that one or more of the smaller game-makers will target the dinosaurs =)   In the meantime, well, er uh .... I dunno lol. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing still puzzles me though ... why does it seem the newer crops of gamers seek something so different from what people sought merely a few years ago.   Interesting phenomenon .................</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh I can't see it going to the PS3 but I'd love to see them try it.  EQOA2!</P> <P>I was reading on slashdot the other day that the viideo gaming industry has reached $25 billion in business.   That is a big chunk of change and a lot of people want in on the action including MMO's.  The trend shift that we are seeing is a focus in online games in general.  You have people that were playing Quake or Halo on the Xbox now jumping into a MMORPG world which is vastly different.   There are very few MMO's in the console market and the ones that are there use entirely different mechanics than those we've seen in EQ1, DAoC, UO, etc...</P> <P>I'm terrified to one day find myself in a rocking chair on a front porch with some of my friends going "I can remember sitting on a boat to go to Freeport in the first Everquest.  That was the way it was and we LIKED it."   I'm doing my best to shift my expectations and try and enjoy the more positive changes.   Things like a guild bank, instances galore, and mounts provide me with enjoyment that I didn't have in most other MMO's.   I still think EQ2 is an awesome game but change is inevitable...</P>