Public Perception of Templars

[Merrilee]

<P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>I’m a level 60 Templar.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I rarely post here, and neither do the majority of Templars in this game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I see maybe 10-15 folks regularly posting here. On a typical weekday night there are 80-90 Templars on my server alone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Multiply that across all the servers, and you get the picture.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>For those few of you who do spend so much time here bickering and complaining, have you ever considered what that is doing to public perception of our abilities as Templars?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some misinformed people think we are completely gimped, thanks to you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>I’m not gimped, thank you very much.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I heal just as well as I did before the combat changes.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>I still duo yellow ^^^ heroics with my partner, a Dirge, just as we have done since we left the Isle of Refuge a year ago.<SPAN>   </SPAN>I can and regularly do solo heal my groups in Scornfeather Roost, Ancient’s Table and Poet’s Palace.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>Love fury and mystic classes (I play those too), but those I know don’t even try those zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>The groups I regularly play with trust me to keep them alive as sole healer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But, I am amazed to see many who don’t know anything about priest classes with the perception that it can’t be done.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some also seem to have the misperception that furies are better healers, but ironically, the furies I know won’t even group in challenging zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I assume the misinformed folks are reading the boards and believing all this drivel.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Kindly stop tarnishing our reputations, get out there and play, live up to your potential and have fun. Upgrade your spells, it makes a world of difference to all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Those of you in your early 50’s, remember that you will feel and heal dramatically better upon reaching level 54.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And please always remember, it is not the class, but the player behind the character, that makes a great healer.</FONT></SPAN></P> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie Moonglimmer, Vanguard of the Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Level 60 Templar</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Guildleader, Elven Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>Thank you.  Thank you very much for this.  </P> <P> </P>

[Nocaster]

<DIV>Couple things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all, like you, I don't post on these boards. But I'm not sure if you've really spent any amount of time reading the gripes of the majority of Templars who do post here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The overwhelming majority of the gripes have to do with our DPS and Utility now that the healing abilities have been "balanced" accross all priest classes/sub-classes. There aren't too many people griping that we can no longer heal, aside from the occasional complaint with regards to recast timers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you wish to be in the "we're fine" camp, that's certainly your prerogative. However, there are plenty here who think that in the very least, we need "tweaking".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I couldn't care less how other classes "perceive" Templars. I care how Templars perceive Templars, especially yours truly. My perception? We need some work.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocaster wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I couldn't care less how other classes "perceive" Templars. I care how Templars perceive Templars, especially yours truly. My perception? We need some work.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I believe the original point being raised is that the perception by those other classes is affecting how Templars are offered groups.  After all, their perception is their reality - whether or not that reality is based upon factual represenation or not.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[kenji]

<DIV>my group also trust that i can do sole healer of group, but not because the class, is the skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but after that, is our class balance with other priests? i am sure i can keep same group alive with Templar / Mystic / Fury / Warden (i did borrow guildies' char and try them)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>lack of healing advantage</U>. the healing ability with all priest is very close, not more than 20% difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>lack of DPS</U>? Templar max i can throw out 150 dps with smites, a Fury can...hm....250++ dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Armor isnt working well</U>. the advantage of Heavy Armor is meaningless,  50% less avoidance (20% of LA, 10% of HA) but mitigation just 25% difference (40% of HA and 30% LA) and Templar's Longer cast time will just make less chance to cast heal while getting beat</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Utilities.</U>  Templar's Utilities are mostly heals, cant rely on them at all...bonus? maybe....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Lack of Buff Choices.</U> other classes have more different type of buffs to choose, such as Fury's Group Int + Wis buffs. which we dun have it.. or just the single target version (cant even buff more with conc....sux)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar isnt a Gimped class that cant keep a group alive, but all priests also keep the group same well....what does we got as advantage?</DIV>

[Nocaster]

<DIV>Right - his point was not lost on me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was merely pointing out that if other Templars perceive our class as less than what it should be, then this is certainly the place to come and discuss those views. </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>Templar isnt a Gimped class that cant keep a group alive, but all priests also keep the group same well....what does we got as advantage?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm sorry to hear you believe that.  I've stated it enough times that I'm healing much better than any priest I know.  However, if you feel differently, then your perception is your reality.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only unfortunate part to that, in my eyes, is that by continuing to post that perception, you lend credence to the public perception that Templars are somehow lesser healers...and should not get groups.  It's a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point, where the perceived reality becomes the actual reality - where an argument is made on the forums stating that Templars aren't better priests leads to less Templars finding groups which leads to more Templars claiming they can't get groups which is cited as proof that Templars aren't better priests...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a downward spiral from there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kenji]

<P>yes templar may heal better than all other priests.</P> <P>the fact is, all priest solo can keep the daily xp group alive. and most instance.</P> <P>the extra healing from templar isnt a group's need anymore.</P> <P>what else does templar provide to group? thats the advantage question i mean.</P> <P> </P>

[Redorio]

<P>I played a magician in Eq1 since start of Kunark, I saw how numbskulls saying "class x" sucked, caused bad reactions..rangers, magicians, wizards...ups anddowns. Yet I KNEW my class coudllay out serious samage.</P> <P>Curently I'm playing a templar alt (lvl 30), bit bored with my lvl 60 conjuror, he has insane DPs but there isn't much to do, and worse, little to <EM>learn</EM>, DoF was way way too small. So enjoying playing a templar <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The poster is correct, if folk THINK templars suck, then they WILL suck regardless of the facts.</P> <P>Ever heard that a self fulfillign prophecy is as dangerous as heck, hm? it happens in real life and causes wars, racial  violence, and total screw ups, because folk say <EM>"People/nation/race/religion/thing X is bad, it is our enemy, get them before they get us!",</EM> roughly how World War1 started. Much of life is NOT based on the facts, but the PERCEPTION of reality.</P> <P>Templar utility and DPs does need a look at, templar Dps isn't just low, it's crap, totally crap. Either add a damage shield, or weapon proc, or combat ability...something just to stop soloing being so horribly slow. Either a damage shield on the Redoubt spells, or an AOE weapon proc?</P> <P>heavy armour is somewhat broken because melee mobs hit you so often, they get you with combat arts and interrupts like crazy, I KNOW my mage gets off a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sight more spells than my templar does when being hit upon by the same kind of mobs. It's ridiculous when grey mobs intterupt you, it shows the game mechanic of Focus is broken.</P> <P>Templars are good in groups, they have issues, but don't make things worse by making templars unwanted!<BR>I KNOW I'm a good healer, macro to cast Mark of Pawns and Amending Fate makes things so much easier, if folk aren't using those "sideways" heals...more fool them! Beyond the direct and reactive heals, AC debuffs, and the alternate heals do a good job, just means more button mashing, hehe.</P> <P>Similarly, a well played  enchanter class IS awesome DPs in a group, you just don't SEE it. In groups I've been in, I kow I'm a very good <EM>healer</EM>, but do I boost groups damage output or help with utility...? I can AC debuff, but it's only worth casting on a ^^^ mob due ot time etc. I can boost combat skills, but to what effect?</P>

[Xerxess]

<P>so what...i play a templar and almost 57 and I still think they suck. Yeah we are good healers but some of our utility is weak and our DPS is a bit on the bad side. SoE told us no class will be more powerful and that priest classes will be balanced. Yet when I grouped with a fury the other day...yes I had to group with one finally =P....I just watched them drop 2 nukes...throw up a spot Heal...AoE...another nuke and spot heal again. All I can do is Throw up reatives and throw in the occasional direct heal. No point in nuking much since its pretty low, i rather waste my mana on healing.</P> <P>No one is saying we are bad healers, we just want some balance also. Yeah we have mark lines...Atoning Fate...Reactives...and an AC debuff but what about some of our other utilities. Glory of combat is nice but doesn't always proc and sometimes it never procs at all in fights. I have yet to see Invul. Curate work still even though it was buffed up. Reverence needs to be looked at. </P> <P>Also our nuking just flat out sucks...I mean if we can't find a group well we gotta exp some how...might as solo for a bit. Its pretty bad when I rather watch my grass grow then solo with a templar.</P> <P>I mean throw us a bone here...</P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Merrilee wrote:<p><font color="#ffffff" size="3">The groups I regularly play with trust me to keep them alive as sole healer.<span>  </span>But, I am amazed to see many who don’t know anything about priest classes with the perception that it can’t be done.<span>  </span>Some also seem to have the misperception that furies are better healers, but ironically, the furies I know won’t even group in challenging zones without two healers.<span>  </span>I assume the misinformed folks are reading the boards and believing all this drivel.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I know, my guilds fury had similar problem. She just couldn't believe that she could heal even though we tried to convince her otherwise. Only after I was in group with her as my templar and did nothing in Scornfeather Roost, she started to trust herself. Now she is solo healing in Poets at lvl 57.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<P>I'm in two minds as to if I agree with the OP. On the one hand I'd say that Templars are still the strongest healers you can find, however they do have very little to offer a group in any other capacity. A character has many aspects to it and I think many people find Templars to be less well rounded than other classes. Not that I’m saying all other classes are well rounded or even should be.</P> <P>Templars really shine when a group is pushing the limits of what they can handle; they have the potential to keep the group alive against very steep odds. If anyone playing a Templar doesn’t see this then I really don't know what they aren’t doing that the rest of us are. I too have become a little disgruntled with all the comments from Templars who say they can’t heal as well as class X. I'm going to go so far as to say that in my opinion seeing as many of us are having no problem what so ever, that this issue is down to the player and not the class (you do know you have too pay attention now?).</P> <P>Where Templars do not shine is when they must contribute in any other fashion that does not involve healing. All things being equal if I was playing an alt in a small group and we were not taking on high con mobs I would see very little reason to choose templar over another healing class. I would never turn away a Templar, but I wouldn’t expect them to be able to speed up the fights to any great degree (unless fighting undead mobs I suppose).</P> <P>I’d say the main problem with our class is solo ability, the long cast times of our spells do make us more prone to interrupts. The lack of dps (intended as I may be) means it does take a long while to wear down a mob. With the solo focus being the quicker you kill mobs the faster the game will progress for you, we are obviously left wanting.</P> <P>As to if the discussions on this board are effecting groups picking up Templars, I seriously doubt it, the vast majority of people I know don’t even read these boards let alone let it have an impact on their play styles. This is however the best place to put forward you opinions about you class is it not? So I’d say it takes a great deal of arrogance to come here and tell people not to voice their opinions. :smileytongue:</P>

[Andu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrilee wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>I’m a level 60 Templar.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I rarely post here, and neither do the majority of Templars in this game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I see maybe 10-15 folks regularly posting here. On a typical weekday night there are 80-90 Templars on my server alone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Multiply that across all the servers, and you get the picture.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>For those few of you who do spend so much time here bickering and complaining, have you ever considered what that is doing to public perception of our abilities as Templars?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some misinformed people think we are completely gimped, thanks to you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>I’m not gimped, thank you very much.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I heal just as well as I did before the combat changes.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>I still duo yellow ^^^ heroics with my partner, a Dirge, just as we have done since we left the Isle of Refuge a year ago.<SPAN>   </SPAN>I can and regularly do solo heal my groups in Scornfeather Roost, Ancient’s Table and Poet’s Palace.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>Love fury and mystic classes (I play those too), but those I know don’t even try those zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>The groups I regularly play with trust me to keep them alive as sole healer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But, I am amazed to see many who don’t know anything about priest classes with the perception that it can’t be done.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some also seem to have the misperception that furies are better healers, but ironically, the furies I know won’t even group in challenging zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I assume the misinformed folks are reading the boards and believing all this drivel.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Kindly stop tarnishing our reputations, get out there and play, live up to your potential and have fun. Upgrade your spells, it makes a world of difference to all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Those of you in your early 50’s, remember that you will feel and heal dramatically better upon reaching level 54.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And please always remember, it is not the class, but the player behind the character, that makes a great healer.</FONT></SPAN></P> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie Moonglimmer, Vanguard of the Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Level 60 Templar</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Guildleader, Elven Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I find it mildly amusing that you attribute the fact that people think we are gimped to these boards, when noone other than Templars and the occasional fury actually reads them. I know I haven't spent any great time in the Assassin forum. </P> <P>I think far more damage is being done by those awful combatstats type things that some people love so much. I was in an xp group doing AT the other day and we had someone in who insisted on showing everyones DPS after every fight. Well, guess who was at the bottom after each fight hovering around the 0 - 50 mark.</P> <P>Now, a few jokes were made about this but everyone of course seemed to accept that Im the healer I shouldnt be DPS'ing. Until some bright spark who's sister was a fury made the point that she does far more damage and manages to keep the group alive by herself as well.</P> <P>For the rest of the evening I was made to feel like an xp leach. It was all done with the veneer of humour and just having a laugh but you could tell everyone was now thinking "if we had a fury we could be killing stuff much quicker".</P> <P>Now, you may not agree with them. You can argue, sure, Templars are the best healers by 20%, there is less chance of you dying with me. You just know though that they couldn't give a rats anus about 20% more healing when 20% less but more xp is the other alternative.</P> <P>That's the kind of thing that is getting us the reputation of having a gimped class. Because 5 people went away from that group with the thought that furies are better than Templars and there was nothing I could do, not one fancy spell I could cast, to make them think otherwise. They will now go and tell other people the same thing, when they are forming up new groups and someone says "see if you can get a fury, theyre better than Templars". Before you know it, the whole bloody server is thinking the same thing.</P> <P>Then people like you, with your steady group of friends who would play with you even if you were REALLY gimped, come on here saying there is nothing wrong, I can heal people, whats the problem. I'll tell you what the problem is. You're so stuck in your cushy world of regular groups that you don't know what its like to interact with people who dont know you and only judge you on the abilities of your class. People like the group above who would probably of found an excuse to drop if a fury stuck his /lfg tag on.</P> <P>The fact of the matter is yes, we are probably still the best healers by some small percentage. We should be, after all much of our utility is made up of heals (whether you think they are effective or not). However, that percentage means nothing now as there is maybe 1 - 2% of encounters where that actually makes a difference. In the meantime we are stuck with the reputation that we cannot DPS for toffee which leads to the reputation that our class is gimped.</P> <P>And if coming onto the official Templar boards and raising that as an issue is then causing some ripples well I don't see that as a problem. We've already had some response from Devs and I truly believe that we are being looked at. Besides, what else are we supposed to do. Close our eyes and hope mommy makes everything better?</P> <P>When our class is improved are you going to then come in here complaining? I don't think so.</P> <p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 AM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Eillie,</P> <P>You know well, I both like and respect you, and know you in-game. However, your statements here seem targetted at, amongst others, myself, since I am very much one of those highlighting the major problems with the Templar class, in the hope of getting them addressed.</P> <DIV>None of the things you said are untrue, you can and do do all the things you stated. Templars did not suddenly become 'bad' healers, and can indeed heal groups, like they always could. But as others have already pointed out, most of the issues with our class are not primarily to do with healing, since we have been forced to accept that SoE intend all priests to heal equally. Yes, there are some issues with 58+ heal lines vs other classes, but those are not the main focus at least of myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real issue, and it remains a truely massive issue for some of us (clearly not you sis, given you play in a much more high-end game arena than I do, including a lot of raiding) remain that in competition for small groups, Templars are equal healers and then are relatively weak <EM>in areas of contribution over and above healing.</EM> You hunt with your husband, he will always group with you however weak or strong you are as a class, but not everyone is in that position. And here is the kicker, sis. Once Annaelisa gets to 60, if things do not change, your husband and Anna could and would kill far faster in exactly the same places you are killing now. If you do not believe it, I will demonstrate for you come the time, assuming I can access whatever area you are speaking of (and if I cannot, then we can choose somewhere equivalent). Now, you may not care, you might have fun anyway, and really truely I'm glad that you do, but some of us do not, we hate being charity cases, and this is how I feel right now, and you know it. I find it deeply upsetting that I feel my beloved Templar is wasting other player's XP by grouping with them, due to her class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, the fact that some druid players do not have the confidence to hunt in such places is not actually relevant, I am sure that is also true of many cleric players too. Indeed, I generally dislike hunting anywhere that is very dangerous or where CR is annoying, as I just do not enjoy it, I prefer to hunt relaxed, and know I can leave when I need to. The perception of other players is, really, irrelevant to me. I only want to be able to contribute to small groups as well with my Templar as I can do with my Fury, and right now, it is not even close.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I am very sorry sis, but if I feel upset and angry about the state of my class, I will come here and say so, you cannot tell me I do not have the right  to do so. Until the Templar class is fixed, I won't be playing Felishanna much, as it simply is not fun, knowing I am an XP leech compared to a Fury of her level and gear. And whether you like it or not, that is how I, and many other players of all classes, will view all Templars, because it is the truth of the current situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope none of this offends you, truely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [46 Fury]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The only unfortunate part to that, in my eyes, is that by continuing to post that perception, you lend credence to the public perception that Templars <snip> should not get groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point, where the perceived reality becomes the actual reality - where an argument is made on the forums stating that Templars aren't better priests leads to less Templars finding groups which leads to more Templars claiming they can't get groups which is cited as proof that Templars aren't better priests...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a downward spiral from there.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For once, Kendricke, you are correct. It is a downward spiral.</P> <P>Yes, posting what we do does feed the spiral, that is true. Perception is important, as is managing that perception. Do you not think that is part of what we are doing here as well, deliberately? On my part, at least, it is perfectly deliberate, since my agenda is to get our class fixed, and nothing else. Since I find our class pretty much unplayable now <EM>compared to my Fury </EM>(I stress, not in an absolute sense, only in a relative sense). I have nothing to lose in this regard, so pardon me for pushing my agenda to get the Templar class fixed, as I will continue to do.</P> <P>However, the core of this whole is not 'perception', it never was - it is based in hard fact, even if they are facts you personally have never accepted or wanted to accept. It is fact, based on the feelings and experiences of hundreds of players, in a variety of hunting circumstances, in many cases with data, but in most with simple common-sense observations. Bottom line is, even playing a templar, I don't believe most groups <STRONG>should</STRONG> take one (even me) if they can get another priest class, because assuming equal player skill/character gear/level, the Templar (even me, even YOU!) is the weak option. If I played another class, friends aside, as things stand now I would never consider taking a Templar for mos tof the things I do, if I could get a Warden or a Fury who was a competent player. Whether you agree is actually unimportant, you are protected by always being given guild groups, who do not mind you being weaker than the priest stood next to you, but outside that, other Templars will be affected.</P> <P>The spiral down will inevitably continue, as more and more people realize that the reason Templars are unhappy is not because suddenly Templars are 'bad healers' (we are not bad healers at all), or because we cannot heal groups (we can heal groups very well, just no better than other healers, even if you personally seem to claim to be better than the rest of us), but genuinely because the class is weaker than the other priests in terms of <EM>all-round group contribution</EM>.</P> <P>There are only two end results.</P> <P>Either ... more and more Templars will stop playing, and the class will degenerate into just a few people for raids and those who do not care about playing a weak class ... the trend towards this is already apparent.</P> <P>Or ... SoE will redress the balance, and the outcry will ease away.</P> <P>I hope it will be the latter. Indeed, because SoE do care about their game, I expect it will be the latter.</P> <P> </P>

[Kharzho]

<DIV><FONT face=Helv size=2> <P>Out of curiosity; when you are in solid XP grind groups -- do you ever look at your mana bar and say to yourself, 'Gee, I have so much mana I wish I could nuke' ?</P> <P>Ocassionally this happens when we are slacking, but to be honest, when I group with guildmates to do a solid xp grind in the giants field; I am always hovering around the 50 mana area (including t6 drink, manastone, totem of monkey). We keep the giants area clear of respawn, but in doing so, we are fighting virtually non-stop. Last night we had 2 tanks, one would bring another set of mobs while we killed the current one. With 2 tanks, 2 wizzies and an assassin, things died quick and we were going full bore.</P> <P>How much dps did I contribute? Virtually nada because I was always scraping by on mana healing multiple people with multiple pulls. We almost wiped once when we had 2 groups on us and another 2 popped on us (whoops) but it was obvious I could solo heal and let the dps go full burn (had to heal wizzies every other 3ish fights due to agro).</P> <P>In this case; even if I had a stronger nuke; I wouldnt have used it because I simply didn't have the mana for it.</P> <P>So I guess my question to people here are if they are fighting, how often are they full power? And if they are; could they speed up pulls by 2x, 3x, etc so full power isnt a big deal? Don't get me wrong, I would love more dps and utility -- but when my guildies and I **grind** I don't have the time / mana to nuke.</P> <P>-Kharz</P> <P> </P> <P>**edit**</P> <P>I am a 58 temp, some fabled, all adept IIIs, but no where uber.</P></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kharzhoul on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<P>I dont think anyone is debating that Kharz. This whole issue seems more focused on those who do not have a guild xp group who they can grind with and no need to contribute DPS or utility to help out. </P> <P>On a side note doing a similar thing to what you descibe I hardly ever find myself low on mana, does your tank have below par gear or trouble holding agro? Why do you need to spend so much power on healing? Mind you i do usually have a bard / chanter with me. </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrilee wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>For those few of you who do spend so much time here bickering and complaining, have you ever considered what that is doing to public perception of our abilities as Templars?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some misinformed people think we are completely gimped, thanks to you.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok being I frequent the forums so much I'm going to take a second to respond to this one.   First of all, every single living breathing person is entitled to an opinion even if its an angry, illogical, annyoing rant.  Second, the percentage of people who read and post to these forums versus the actual number of players is so marginal its ridiculous to even think about.   So I have to ask....Our "public perception?"  Do we need our own Public Relations team now?   If people are choosing to believe what they hear (which probably is mostly speculation) instead of reading it for themselves, then I feel sorry for them being so gullible.  </P> <P>I will admit that these forums in recent months have likened to a "freak show" and people have been watching the arguements with large bags of popcorn.  However, I doubt seriously non-Templars have been reading these forums that much.  I can honestly say that I have yet to get the motivation to wander over to other class boards and dig through their threads and I'd be surpised if more than a few people actually ever did.</P> <P>Bottom line, I think you're exaggerating the effect this forum has had on the playerbase.  I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you being "gimped" because god knows we've had a zillion threads on that already.   I like your positivity but its hard to see the wisdom in a blanket shot at the frequent posters here.</P> <P>I respect your opinion and all I did was just give you mine.<BR></P>

[Copperha]

<DIV>From my experience, our value in groups depends upon the type of group and what the group is fighting. If I am with guildies and we are knocking off some quests, writs or heritage stuff then I bring absolutely nothing to the table. We are not often in any serious kind of danger and my heals, for the most part, are simply not needed. Since I can do precious little else, I simply follow them around collecting updates. At times like these I very much feel like a leech and really get very annoyed with the Templar class. The same is not true for the other non-templar members of the group. The DPSers still DPS, the tanks still tanks. My heals are not needed so they have fun and I don't. The same is also true if the group (guild or pickup) is a casual group fighting Mobs that aren't particularly difficult or if the pull rate is leisurely (the type of group I think Caethre is talking about). If, on the other hand, I am in a fast-paced group and/or fighting more challenging Mobs, then I shine. Assuming that members of my group don't do something stupid, I can keep my team in that fight a very long time. Nobody in that type of group cares that I am not nuking, my job is to heal. I know it and they expect it.  This type of group is alot of fun for me. I suspect this is the type of group Kharzhoul is talking about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This first two types of groups I always have alot of mana left over that could have been used for something else. I do nuke in these types of group but realistically I am not adding much to the damage output (assuming I even get a nuke out before the mob is already dead). The last type of group, I often don't have alot of mana to waste and prefer to conserve my resources. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess the problem for me is that out of the three common grouping scenarios I have mentioned, I am really only truly valuable in one situation. This is simply not the case for most other professions so I set it as an imbalance. I wonder if the disparity between those who think templars are fine and those who think templars are broken might have something to do with their group style of play? Perhaps it might be beneficial to talk about situations where we do well versus those that we do poorly in addition to things such as spell fixes etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it interesting that one of the posters suggests that there are still alot of templars about. I don't know how many are left on my server but within my guild, at least, there are few templars left. Most have quit or rolled another toon. Including myself, there are three active templars left. One is a dual box toon and the other is very unhappy. They came to the conclusion that templars were no longer fun to play all on their own. None of them even read the forums.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Copperhand on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:29 AM</span>

[Kharzho]

<FONT face=Helv size=2> <P>The quick answer to Big Dave, we had no mana regen in the group so only mana regen while in combat came from manastone, etc. Because we fought constantly (so very little out of combat time for 90/tic food and 75/tic monkey) I was -- as we all were -- short of mana. Only twice did I run out and have to use instants / focus / DA, etc. That for me is a fun group, which I enjoyed immensely.</P> <P>I must admit that I have never felt like an xp leach; have never been told by anyone I am a leach, etc. There are always some situations in which you shine and some which you are acceptable. For example, we had two tanks last night. In some ways the other tank was a 'leach' as he could have been replaced with dps. But he was a guildie, needed the xp, and we turned his ability into a puller / off tanker so we always had a mob in camp (ala out school EQ). Could we have gone faster if we had 4 dps / 1 healer / 1 tank? Probably a bit. Was he a leach; heck no! Did he shine .... I would say less, even though it was a less than ideal situation, as he made the most out of it. Would I restructure the exact same group again? Oh yeah, it was a blast!</P> <P>There are times when I quest I don't add value a ton. I look at those situations as an insurance policy. They don't need me 90% of the time - but they desperately need me the other 10%.</P> <P>Again, would I like more dps / utility. Yes -- of course.</P> <P>But I try and play the majority of the game in intense situations, so I don't seem to face the difficulties many of my fellow templars are facing. In pick-up groups if the pullers are slow, I will often cast intercession on myself and pull when the mob in camp is at 20%. Eventually someone realizes this is faster and someone else pulls so I dont need to =) In this case, I take an ok group and make it a great group by pushing them. </P> <P>Just some thoughts for the fires....</P> <P>-Kharz</P> <P>58 Templar</P> <P>Deaths Door</P> <P>Grobb</P></FONT>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The only unfortunate part to that, in my eyes, is that by continuing to post that perception, you lend credence to the public perception that Templars should not get groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point, where the perceived reality becomes the actual reality - where an argument is made on the forums stating that Templars aren't better priests leads to less Templars finding groups which leads to more Templars claiming they can't get groups which is cited as proof that Templars aren't better priests...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a downward spiral from there.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For once, Kendricke, you are correct. It is a downward spiral.</P> <P>Yes, posting what we do does feed the spiral, that is true. Perception is important, as is managing that perception. Do you not think that is part of what we are doing here as well, deliberately? On my part, at least, it is perfectly deliberate, since my agenda is to get our class fixed, and nothing else.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...and nothing else?</P> <P>On several occasions, you've stated clearly that Templars are "broken" or outright unplayable in some way:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>"Underneath all this is genuine concern about a class we feel passionate about, and want to see fixed. Yes, it is broken for some styles of play, even if a few players can't see it, it is no less true because they can't." - Caethre</P> <P>"Templar is indeed broken at the moment." -Caethre</P> <P>"I am concerned about getting the Templar class fixed, because I think it is broken." -Caethre</P> <P>"The Templar class feels weak now, so much so, that it seems broken to me." - <FONT color=#ffffff>Caethre</FONT></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How many times have you and others referred to Templars as "equal healers" or even "lesser healers".  Even in my own guild, I had a few Templars and Furies who started to believe the hype they hear about on the forums (till I asked them to run their own parses and see with their own eyes).  Not just the Templar forums, mind you...because posts like this are posted elsewhere.</P> <P>Even on the popular "In Testing: Feedback" forums, you posted a discussion entitled, "<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=33287&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>Where is the Templar class to go now, with EQUAL HEALING and almost nothing else?</A>" (emphasis yours).  This was followed by a post by yourself, "<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=34608&query.id=0#M34608" target=_blank>Why the continued TOTAL silence on Templar issues?</A>"  Later, Cowdenicus posted "<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=34542&query.id=0#M34542" target=_blank>LU 13 and Templars</A>" and then  "<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=35390&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>2 Months since LU13 and the life of a soloing Templar</A>".</P> <P>In each of those discussions, multiple claims were made (typically by Timaarit or Bigmak, among others) that Templars were actually lesser healers than Furies.  This leads to more perception that Templars are a weak class.  We're not.  However, the perception is out there and it's affecting players. </P> <P>Luckily, my own guild is largely hurt by this perception.  We actually try to deal in facts, not hype.  We try to deal in actuality, not merely belief.  We maintain a presence on Test server for that reason, so we can actually see first hand if the claims match the numbers.  Most of the time, they don't.  I think this is an important point raised by Merrilee that the forums' hype bleeds over into the game. </P> <P>We group among ourselves quite a bit, and we've got the numbers to consisently do so without having to worry too much about group exclusion.  Others are not so lucky. You don't need to directly read the forums to hear about issues raised within the game.  I've actually bumped into players who told me point blank that Templars can't keep groups standing since the Combat Revamp.  When I ask where they heard that, I'm told "everyone knows that".  Twenty minutes later, I'm the sole healer in a group that's killing another named in Shimmering Citadel...while the previous group who took a Fury because "everyone knows" that Furies are better priests is coming back from an evac.  I was even nice enough to give their Fury a full revive without resurrection effects so they could recover faster.</P> <P>I'm not saying that's a class issue, but when I see more and more players racing to start a new class (bruiser, conjuror, or fury), I can already feel the pendulum swinging back toward center.  If there's one thing I've learned in over ten years of online gaming (any old BatMUD, ZombieMUD, or ShadowrunMUSH players here?), it's that the only constant is change, never believe the hype more than the actuality, ...and to always, always beware the swinging pendulum of preference.</P> <P>Hype is powerful.  It reinforces emotional beliefs (positive or negative) of those who already believe such a thing, and then moves on to affect peer pressure.  Already, I could quote dozens of players who chose not to continue with Templars after reading some of the "factual posts" that indicate Templars are a "broken" class because we're apparantly unable to solo, or it takes 10 minutes to solo, or our spells don't work at all, or Furies are better healers, or Furies pull in 7-10 times our DPS...</P> <P>No one's saying not to post at all.  Just understand that every post is read...and repeated...and <EM>if</EM> your post is not factual, it can be taken as such by those who don't necessarily know any better.  After all, perception is reality. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><FONT color=#ffffff> <P><BR></P></FONT>

[bigmak20]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

Kendricke; so... you think a priest class getting 2 additional direct heals over other priests does not make them better healers?  Give me 2 more direct heals on seperate timers then any other priest and I'm a better healer then the other priests.  Period.  How is that even debatable?  How can you throw stones at me for pointing that out Kendricke?  Why don't you work ok solving that imbalance instead of constantly beating up on people that are trying to get this fixed?  I'll quiet down as soon as DEVS come on here and tell us they are FIXING it.  Until then -- you are stuck with me. Let's all shoot the messengers and pretend there's no problem. Good idea Kendricke.

[Tirador]

<P>I hardly post here at all as well, but I have to post on this one.</P> <P>You on one hand talk about how few templars post here, then on the other hand complain that those that do post here are affecting your reputation?</P> <P>Well lets look at some numbers here.</P> <P>If there are 80-90 templars on at any typical weekday night, then there are like 1500-2000 players on your server at that time? Would you agree? Doesn't matter.</P> <P>Spread that across 25 or whatever servers and you see that there are typically 50,000 players playing this game on a weekday night.</P> <P>Now consider your post has been viewed 230 times. It would be safe to say that no one in any real numbers reads this board. Even with word of mouth it is a very hard thing.</P> <P>So what does that leave? It leaves clear perception that people get about us. Templars are considered poor healers because somewhere, sometime, someone has determined this on the abilities of a Templar. Not by reading it on the boards, the boards are just a reaction.</P> <P> </P>

[Troga]

thanks merrilee for voicing that! totaly agree. <div></div>

[Kizee]

<DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV>Templars can heal fine just like ALL priests. The problem is that they really don't offer anything else to a group other than healing... thier ultility and dps sucks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think they should up the DPS of the class but give us alittle more ultility to equal us out to the other priests.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>  How can you throw stones at me for pointing that out Kendricke?  Why don't you work ok solving that imbalance instead of constantly beating up on people that are trying to get this fixed?  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176" target=_blank>Holy Books of Templar: "Compiled List of Bugs and Suggestions"</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11100" target=_blank>An Attempt at Constructive Discussion: What are the problems? What are the suggestions?</A></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>I've also just been informed that my original request for an interview from the developers regarding Templars was handed off to Blackguard last night (questions were chosen from this forum - not one question asked by myself personally).  I hope to have it posted on Caster's Realm later this week, assuming I receive it back soon.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>Of course, you might feel these are all posts dedicated to "constantly beating up on people".  I perceive it differently.  To each, their own reality.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>In each of those discussions, multiple claims were made (typically by Timaarit or Bigmak, among others) that Templars were actually lesser healers than Furies.  <FONT color=#ffff00>This leads to more perception that Templars are a weak class.  We're not.</FONT>  However, the perception is out there and it's affecting players. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know I am wasting breathe on you, but this post is aimed at a wider audience of course.</P> <P>You can indeed quote me all these forums over giving the same message; I am, indeed, highly consistent in this regard.</P> <P>The highlighted text says it all. You still ignore all of the posts from hundreds of people, all of the data, observations and comments, and INSIST that because you in your protected guild groups are 'alright', that the rest of us have no cause for concern.</P> <P>You remain, as you have always been, fundamentally and totally wrong in this regard.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>It is not mere 'perception' that Templar is a weak class, it is a FACT that we are a weak class, and that includes me, you and every other Templar player, and non-Templar players are realizing it too.</FONT></P> <P>Yes, in the right sorts of raids and hardcore guild groups, this class can hold its own, noone has ever said otherwise, but I am not talking about those circumstances, indeed, I naturally focus on the arena/playstyle that I play in myself - soloing, duoing, small groups, and full groups on normal content, in more casual (some would say "easy") settings. And in those circumstances (circumstances YOU do not play in, do not respect and and downright ignore), we are so <EM>relatively</EM> weak compared to other priest classes, that we feel like a burden on our friends, and this was not true prior to LU13.</P> <P>Templar *is* <EM>relatively</EM> broken right now. Hundreds of us can see it, and there is an excess of evidence for it on these forums, and that's why so many are abandoning the class, across many guilds, on every server. They don't leave due to a few messages on some forum that most players never read. They leave because they see their Warden and Fury friends doing everything they can AND doing a lot more damage and bringing a lot more utility to their groups.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tirador wrote:<BR> <P> Templars are considered poor healers because somewhere, sometime, someone has determined this on the abilities of a Templar. Not by reading it on the boards, the boards are just a reaction.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's not "just" a reaction.  Claims are made here (I can quote each of the following) that soloing is "impossible" for Templars; that it takes "five minutes" or "ten minutes" to solo a blue or green target; that Furies consistently bring in five, six, seven, or even ten times our DPS; that reactive heals are consistently wasted on avoidance tanks; that reactive heals aren't as good as regenerations; that Templars have less DPS than any other class; that Templars are "broken" and unplayable as a class.</P> <P>I can personally show where every above claim is false, but it doesn't matter.  If your perception is A, then no amount of actual proof can show B.  Your perception is your reality. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Gcha]

<DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Radar-X wrote:</DIV> <DIV>First of all, every single living breathing person is entitled to an opinion even if its an angry, illogical, annyoing rant.  Second, the percentage of people who read and post to these forums versus the actual number of players is so marginal its ridiculous to even think about.   So I have to ask....Our "public perception?"  Do we need our own Public Relations team now?  </DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>bigmak2010 wrote:</DIV> <DIV>Let's all shoot the messengers and pretend there's no problem.</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Tirador wrote:</DIV> <DIV>You on one hand talk about how few templars post here, then on the other hand complain that those that do post here are affecting your reputation?</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Kizee wrote:</DIV> <DIV>Templars can heal fine just like ALL priests. The problem is that they really don't offer anything else to a group other than healing... thier ultility and dps sucks. </DIV> <DIV><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Saved me a lot of typing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><p>It's not "just" a reaction.  Claims are made here (I can quote each of the following) that soloing is "impossible" for Templars; that it takes "five minutes" or "ten minutes" to solo a blue or green target; that Furies consistently bring in five, six, seven, or even ten times our DPS; that reactive heals are consistently wasted on avoidance tanks; that reactive heals aren't as good as regenerations; that Templars have less DPS than any other class; that Templars are "broken" and unplayable as a class.</p> <p>I can personally show where every above claim is false, but it doesn't matter.  If your perception is A, then no amount of actual proof can show B.  Your perception is your reality. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Lots of strawmen there. No one has claimed soloing to be impossible. The one who wrote 'soloing takes 5 minutes' admitted he exaggerated. No one has claimed that furies bring 6, 7  or even 10 times more dps, 5 times I have heard. And one has claimed our reactives are  always wasted on avoidance tanks. You see you are outright lying there. The rest are opinions with their base on mathematics. And you acan show the first ones false because you have made them up yourself. As for reactives being worse than HoTs, go ahead, prove it wrong. Same for our DPS. As for playable, go ahead and prove that everyone likes to play current templar. See? You are still lying. Exept for that last sentence. Your perception really seems to be your reality and no matther how much evidence has been given to you, you still think the opposite. But please, prove us wrong. If you can. </span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <P>You still ignore all of the posts from hundreds of people, all of the data, observations and comments, and INSIST that because you in your protected guild groups are 'alright', that the rest of us have no cause for concern.</P> <P>You remain, as you have always been, fundamentally and totally wrong in this regard.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Where are the "hundreds"?  Honestly...where?  You've used the "hundreds" line to back your arguments for far too long.  "Hundreds of people" indicates that there are multiple counts of hundred, so at least 200 people, right?  Are there even 200 Templars posting on these forums total?  You want a count?  I'm home ill today, and I'm just stubborn enough to pull a count together for you if you're unwilling to back your own claim.</P> <P>You then go on to claim that I state Templars somehow have no cause for concern.  This is a strawman.  It's fallacy.  I do not believe Templars are perfect and without need for tweaks or adjustments.  However, that's a far cry from "broken". </P> <P>Please cease in misrepresenting arguments of others in order to disprove their arguments...when you're not actually attacking their arguments, but rather putting words in their mouth.  Quit resorting to the "appeal to popularity" fallacy to back your claims.  If your claims were true, then it wouldn't matter if you were the only person who held that claim...it would still be true.  Truth doesn't care about numbers.  Think of how many people believe communists were evil; or how many people felt African Americans were inferior; or how many people felt women should not be given the right to vote; or how many people believe that all muslims are terrorists.  Does popularity of "hundreds" or even thousands or millions of people make these arguments "right"?  Of course not, so please stop utilizing the same tactic (erroneously, to boot) to "prove" your point by stating that you have "hundreds of people" agreeing with you.</P> <P>I could get hundreds, if not thousands of players to agree with me that SOE should provide us all with a bag of gold.  I daresay you'd agree with me.  I could probably get over 90% of all players in the game to agree with me.  Does that mean SOE should buckle to "popular" pressure? </P> <P>This isn't about you and me.  It isn't about sides.  This isn't West Side Story and we aren't leading gangs.  Quit drawing battlelines and please stick to the issues - the real issues, not the imaginary ones you bring up to disprove those who disagree with you. </P> <P>Believe it or not, some of us don't feel our class is "broken".  You do.  That's the wonder of free will.  We all feel correct in our assessment.  We all have different ways of bringing our points forward. </P> <P>However, we can disagree without being disagreeable.  I should be able to post without seeing posts from yourself, Kaylena, Bigmak, Timaarit, or Cowdenicus attacking me in some fashion.  Other Templars should be free to do so as well.  It's gone on for too long.  I'm not the only one that sees it.  It's time for the animosity to cease.</P> <P>You don't represent the Templars.  You're not my "Queen".  While we're on the subject, I don't represent us either.  I represent myself and my Guild.  That's it.  That's where my authority ends.  Neither of us speaks for Templars, players in general, or SOE.  You don't represent solo or small group players anymore than I represent groups or Kaylena represents raiders.  I represent A Templar.  You represent A Templar.  Everyone here represents A Templar - just one. </P> <P>This isn't a petition.  It's not a vote.  It's not any kind of gang or organization.  Your "hundreds of players" don't exist - not as any type of entity you control or represent.  There is no Kendricke menace.  I'm not ignoring anyone, nor am I out to destroy the Templar class. </P> <P>I love being a Templar.  I...LOVE...BEING...A...TEMPLAR.  I've played this class in various forms in various games for several years now.  It fits my playstyle.  Even when it wasn't always the best class in some games, I still played the divine healer.  I have no agenda to destroy the class, nor to hold it back.  I just disagree with some folks who feel it's "broken" or "unplayable".  I grow frustrated by increasingly wild claims and hyperboles.  We've got enough issues without having to exaggerate for attention. </P> <P>So again, I ask, politely and humbly, that you cease the animosity against myself or those who disagree with you.  You've more than made your points.  If you dislike mine, then I politely ask that you leave me be.  I'll give you the same courtesy. </P> <P>No one - NO ONE wants to see this forum continue to evolve into a steady stream of hate filled liturgies from one Templar to another.  Let's agree to continue disagreeing and leave it at that.  I'm not going to see things your way and you're not going to see things my way.  Let's just accept that and move on. </P> <P>Thank you.</P> <P> </P> <DIV><BR><BR> </DIV>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Where is all this animosity and attacking from Caethre?  I don't see it.  I see Caethre persistently advocating her positions.  Sometimes around here simply disagreeing is labeled as animosity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep up the good work.  Who knows, maybe we'll see some improvement.  Some around here work hard to prevent improvement, but, what the heck, even they might wind up liking it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can be my queen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep up the good work.  Who knows, maybe we'll see some improvement.  Some around here work hard to prevent improvement, but, what the heck, even they might wind up liking it.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just because someone's idea of improvement isn't your idea, doesn't mean they're working against improvement.</P> <P> </P>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Well, yeah, I do mean REAL improvement.  Rearranging the deck chairs (minor spell tweaks) isn't going to inspire me.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, yeah, I do mean REAL improvement.  Rearranging the deck chairs (minor spell tweaks) isn't going to inspire me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So your perception of improvement is your reality.  My perception is mine.  Why hold it against someone for daring to disagree with you? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gcha]

I don't.  Disagreement which is stated in a civil, non-demeaning manner, doesn't bother me at all.  I simply continue to state my opinions.  I do, however, wonder why some work so hard to prevent significant improvement.  I can't see how some significant improvement to the class is going to hurt anyone.

[Rommie10-284]

*Raises hand for one of the 200* The only thing that keeps me from totally frustrated with the current Templar is that my other main character is a Guardian.  Generic Healer, Generic Fighter.  Hurrah.  Give us armor in Penn State colors <span>:smileytongue:</span> And, whether you like it or not, there is a *real* perception that the class advocates (you know who they are quickly on every class board) *DO* have the ear of the red names.  They all tend to parade their experience and connections as de facto proof of their positions - and getting what they wanted with the combat changes reinforces the foundation that some opinions are More Correct(tm) than others.  Stubborn defiance is the signature - until the game acts against them, and the meltdown takes place.  Nothing is done in moderation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Do you really want the 'the Zealot" title?   <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <div>So your perception of improvement is your reality.  My perception is mine.  Why hold it against someone for daring to disagree with you? </div> <hr></blockquote>Because you cannot prove anything from your reality. We have proven ours.</span><div></div>

[Sinnester]

<DIV>I gave up ages ago on Kendricke!</DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Where are the "hundreds"?  Honestly...where?  ...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As well you might know, of course I do not count posters, it is a turn of phrase. I would not be surprised if it were literally into the hundreds (ie, over 100), nevertheless. However, we both know, the overwhelming majority of templars who express an opinion are unhappy, deeply unhappy, or quitting. I'm not debating that, I'm telling you what is obvious. Disagreeing with it is like disagreeing with the tide or the sunrise. You might say 'so what, this is not about popularity?'. The answer is, you are not who we are talking to, we are addressing SoE, and when it comes to numbers, they MATTER.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>You then go on to claim that I state Templars somehow have no cause for concern.  This is a strawman.  It's fallacy.  I do not believe Templars are perfect and without need for tweaks or adjustments.  However, that's a far cry from "broken". <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>For me, in my playstyle, Templar *is* broken, it is the correct word, I have explained the context in which I mean this enough times. A class I was LOVING up until LU13 is now, for me, unplayable, because of how it makes me feel like I am a leech on friends by just my class choice. This is why I am upset, I do not want to feel forced to re-roll, but I have done anyway. However, I would strongly prefer to keep playing my Templar when she is fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, you are lieing here. You have posted many times AGAINST the changes I and others are requesting, saying they are not needed, because for your playstyle, you feel you do not need them. If you were listened to, my class that I love is destroyed forever. The reason YOU come in for criticism, however, is not that you post your view - we can all do that - but because you feel the need to answer everyone elses post individually, to ram your view home, by flooding the boards with thousands of posts, with a view I at least find damaging to my class. The fact that you drop names, hint constantly at chats with devs, and comment on how 'when you were at the SoE meetings', etc, constantly imply you feel you have more influence than everyone else here. You support your posts with fallacies, truisms and strawmen, and it is amazing that you now accuse another of doing that. And with all this, you still wonder why you get people disageeing with you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Truth doesn't care about numbers. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That part is correct. Which is why, I believe SoE *will* address at least some of our concerns. History will judge that, in time. However, they will not do so unless I and (no apologies, you know exactly what I mean) "hundreds of others" keep calling for them, and explaining why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>You don't represent the Templars....</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I never claimed to. I do not even post anything like as much as you do. As you (should) know, I have one agenda here, and that is to have my class fixed so I and many other here can enjoy playing Templar again. However, you do post in a style that suggests you want to chair every meeting, run every committee, and dictate the agenda. But on this one, some of us are not letting you, and you don't appear to like it. Sorry, but ... well I'm not apologising for this, I have a different agenda to you, I want to see my class fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I love being a Templar.  I...LOVE...BEING...A...TEMPLAR.  I've played this class in various forms in various games for several years now.  It fits my playstyle.  Even when it wasn't always the best class in some games, I still played the divine healer.  I have no agenda to destroy the class, nor to hold it back.  I just disagree with some folks who feel it's "broken" or "unplayable".  I grow frustrated by increasingly wild claims and hyperboles.  We've got enough issues without having to exaggerate for attention. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I did love being a Templar. I also played a Cleric for 5 years in EQ, and apart from a period of about 4-5 months during Luclin (pre-PoP), when Clerics had problems with some similarities to those now in EQ2, I was always reasonably happy with that class too.</P> <P>But you do not seem to accept, that when you call our posts "hyberbole" and "wild claims", that we are not viewing what we are saying as that. I view what I am saying as manifest fact, not 'hyperbole', and if you refer or imply I am spinning a yarn, you are firing insults and personal attacks, as far as I am concerned, and you are going to get comeback on that.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>So again, I ask, politely and humbly, that you cease the animosity against myself or those who disagree with you.  You've more than made your points.  If you dislike mine, then I politely ask that you leave me be.  I'll give you the same courtesy. No one - NO ONE wants to see this forum continue to evolve into a steady stream of hate filled liturgies from one Templar to another.  Let's agree to continue disagreeing and leave it at that.  I'm not going to see things your way and you're not going to see things my way.  Let's just accept that and move on. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There is no 'hate filled' liturgy, well, not from me. This is not personal, it has never been, I do not know you at all. I will confess, I do not like your attitude, because I feel that you simply do not care about anyone but your own guild and playstyle, and I feel that such an attitude is bad for the class and for the game. I can 'leave you be' when you are not posting against the agenda I am working towards, which is getting my class fixed. However, whilst you keep posting messages that can be interpreted as "ignore these whiners, its all hyperbole, we are fine really", you are tarring me with that as well, and I reserve the right to respond.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sinnester wrote:<div></div> <div>I gave up ages ago on Kendricke!</div><hr></blockquote>Well for our classes sake he cannot be ignored. He needs to be fought, otherwise (propably even despite it) he will able to affect the devs and templars are nefred even more. Frankly, I am scared since he is actually thinking that he speaks for all templars and arranging whatever meetings/interviews with the devs. If he gets what he wants, templars will be totally unplayable for 90% of the templars. When I give up on Kend or he gets what he wants, I will delete my templar. </span><div></div>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>Contrary to popular belief, the developers aren't morons and listen to more than just one person. One man can't influence game balance adjustments made to an entire class. He'd better be able to summon fish out of thin air for that to happen <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Timaarit]

That is actually true, one evidence for it is that Caethres post was made sticky <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR>I don't.  Disagreement which is stated in a civil, non-demeaning manner, doesn't bother me at all.  I simply continue to state my opinions.  I do, however, wonder why some work so hard to prevent significant improvement.  I can't see how some significant improvement to the class is going to hurt anyone. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm all for arguing for Warlock DPS, Bruiser Avoidance, Guardian Mitigation, Defiler Debuffs, and the best heals from every priest class.  From a purely Templar point of view, that class would <EM>R00L!!!111!!  </EM>Then I start thinking of overall balance, and realize it doesn't really fit what I think should fit. </P> <P>I like to think of myself as a "big picture" sort of person.  I'm not looking at the right now and what's immediately affecting me.  I like to look for larger issues coming over the horizon, or how this change might impact that or even that over there.  I also believe in working from actual data, not merely personal experience.  There's a place for opinions, to be sure...but the line (for me) is crossed when someone presents opinion as actual fact.  Then I start to wonder why the exaggeration is needed at all.</P> <P>I'm also always looking for curing the disease, not merely the symptoms.  I'm always trying to ask questions and challenge assumptions.  If someone says that Templars need more DPS, I ask myself why this is an issue now and not before the revamp?  What's different now?  We never had great DPS.  So why is it suddenly the rallying cry that some have chosen to suddenly bandy behind now?  If it wasn't an issue before, how can it be the cause of the issue now?</P> <P>My conclusion is that it's not.  There's a deeper issue.  So I start looking deeper.  When did the DPS arguments really kick in?  After the revamp.  What did the revamp do to Templars?  Brought our healing more in line with other priests (by reigning Wardens and Templars back and boosting heals on other classes).  Ok, so what's the correlation between DPS and heal balacing?  Now Templars feel that we have to compete for groups?  That's a possibility.  Is that intended?  Yes, I think it is.</P> <P>Then I have to ask myself a deeper question:  Are Templars closer to what was intended by SOE now...or before the revamp?  Honestly, I keep finding myself here at this question and I keep finding myself answering it in the same way - that yes, I think we're closer to intended now than before.  I was involved with pre-planning community discussions back in 2003 - before Moorgard was even hired, back when Stuart Compton was art director (not Joe Shoopak) and Bill Trost was still heading up the design team.  Even then, they were discussing the idea that the game would have no "Holy Trinity" as Everquest had largely evolved into.  Even then, they were talking about designing a game without complete heals and an archetype system, where there would be no one ultimate healer class.</P> <P>Obviously, the actuality and the ideal stood miles apart in implementation for the first 10 months of release.  Now that this has been reigned in, I believe we see a closer view of what the Templar was supposed to be originally.  It's not perfect yet, but it's getting the game as a whole back toward where it needed to be all along.</P> <P>Now, we hear that you'll soon be choosing your subclass at creation, and there will be new Isles to set foot on up front.  The death mechanic is changing once again, and we'll soon have field repair kits for our armor.  The tradeskill system's getting an overhaul soon according to early reports, and soon we'll be looking at even more adjustments to combat and encounters.  I, for one, look forward to these changes...and some are quite overdue.  </P> <P>So yes, sometimes I might seem a bit oblvious to some of the issues others here might deem important.  I think that's because I'm always trying to see the greater picture...I'm always trying to see the forest, not merely the trees.  I'm sure others are as well, but they simply see things differently than I.  Perception is reality.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Andu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Where are the "hundreds"?  Honestly...where?  You've used the "hundreds" line to back your arguments for far too long.  "Hundreds of people" indicates that there are multiple counts of hundred, so at least 200 people, right?  Are there even 200 Templars posting on these forums total?  You want a count?  I'm home ill today, and I'm just stubborn enough to pull a count together for you if you're unwilling to back your own claim.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Caethre is big and ugly enough to look after herself but this constant Head in the Sand act by you Kendricke really get on my titts. So here is an attempt to back up the "hundreds" of Templars that have quit the class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>How about using this forum as a guide. We have had at least 5 people quitting their Templars here. Gchangs leaving thread indicates even more. Now we have all said there are (at most) 50 posters here. That would mean 10% of the Templar population have quit the class due to the imbalances created by the combat changes. There are easily over 10,000 Templars in the global population. That would mean a thousand quitting. Even accounting for a skew in these figures due to people who frequent this board being [Removed for Content] off with their class rather than playing the game, then you are still left with hundreds.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>How about using my guild as a yardstick. We had 10 high level Templars pre LU-13. Since then 2 have quit the game (we can disregard these as natural wastage although they both gave the CU as their reason for leaving) and 3 have to all intents and purposes switched classes. That would indicate 3 in 10 Templars switching classes because they cannot stand to play the class now.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You then go on to claim that I state Templars somehow have no cause for concern.  This is a strawman.  It's fallacy.  I do not believe Templars are perfect and without need for tweaks or adjustments.  However, that's a far cry from "broken". </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Whether you intend to be it or not, you are the greatest proponent of the "Templar is fine" camp. The fact that you seem to think you are not simply means your communication skills on these boards are woeful.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Take this thread as an example. To anybody reading it you clearly are of the opinion that there is little wrong with the Templar, if anything, and everyone on here complaining are all buffoons who are either lying or at best wildly stretching the truth.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Instead of addressing perceived inaccuracies by telling people they are exaggerating and dont know their [Removed for Content] from their elbow may I suggest that you start along the lines of "I agree that Templar utility seems lacking although I don't think your statement that ....." Or something along those lines. Anything really.</FONT></P> <P>Please cease in misrepresenting arguments of others in order to disprove their arguments...when you're not actually attacking their arguments, but rather putting words in their mouth. </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Hilarious coming from someone who has just quoted someone else a number of times entirely out of context to prove his point.</FONT></P> <P>Quit resorting to the "appeal to popularity" fallacy to back your claims.  If your claims were true, then it wouldn't matter if you were the only person who held that claim...it would still be true.  Truth doesn't care about numbers.  Think of how many people believe communists were evil; or how many people felt African Americans were inferior; or how many people felt women should not be given the right to vote; or how many people believe that all muslims are terrorists.  Does popularity of "hundreds" or even thousands or millions of people make these arguments "right"?  Of course not, so please stop utilizing the same tactic (erroneously, to boot) to "prove" your point by stating that you have "hundreds of people" agreeing with you.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>But she does have hundreds of people agreeing with her. Whereas I would put it to you that the people who believe the things you just stated are in the minority. Which coincidentally is where you are with your opinion. </FONT> </P> <P>I could get hundreds, if not thousands of players to agree with me that SOE should provide us all with a bag of gold.  I daresay you'd agree with me.  I could probably get over 90% of all players in the game to agree with me.  Does that mean SOE should buckle to "popular" pressure?</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Now you are just being silly, if you are having to resort to statements such as these then you might have a problem with the argument you are putting accross.</FONT></P> <P>This isn't about you and me.  It isn't about sides.  This isn't West Side Story and we aren't leading gangs.  Quit drawing battlelines and please stick to the issues - the real issues, not the imaginary ones you bring up to disprove those who disagree with you. </P> <P>Believe it or not, some of us don't feel our class is "broken".  You do.  That's the wonder of free will.  We all feel correct in our assessment.  We all have different ways of bringing our points forward. </P> <P>However, we can disagree without being disagreeable.  I should be able to post without seeing posts from yourself, Kaylena, Bigmak, Timaarit, or Cowdenicus attacking me in some fashion.  Other Templars should be free to do so as well.  It's gone on for too long.  I'm not the only one that sees it.  It's time for the animosity to cease.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>The reason you get personally attacked Kendricke is because of the way you put your points accross. You yourself have acknowledged this and seem to wear it as a badge of honor. Unfortunately, it only serves to discredit you and weaken the argument you are making. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I happen to agree with you on a vast number of the issues being put forward. However, whenever I see one of your posts I have an uncontrollable urge to punch my monitor. So instead of agreeing with what you say I have the impulse to completely disagree with you. That is why virtually every single thread you show up on in this thread nose dives to bickering and flaming. It is not that we all dont agree with your position, it's that we all now have an automatic response that says "Kendricke has posted - I wonder what rubbish he is spouting this time". </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>In actual fact, the way you get threads derailed is probably the most intelligent form of trolling I have ever seen. Even though you don't mean it and I know you aren't really trolling you have pretty much a 100% track record and yet no one could ever accuse you of being anything but totally subjective.</FONT></P> <P>You don't represent the Templars.  You're not my "Queen".  While we're on the subject, I don't represent us either.  I represent myself and my Guild.  That's it.  That's where my authority ends.  Neither of us speaks for Templars, players in general, or SOE.  You don't represent solo or small group players anymore than I represent groups or Kaylena represents raiders.  I represent A Templar.  You represent A Templar.  Everyone here represents A Templar - just one.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>But you manage to "simulate" the views of tens of Templars by your post count alone. I mean, look what your contributions have done to this thread for example.</FONT></P> <P>This isn't a petition.  It's not a vote.  It's not any kind of gang or organization.  Your "hundreds of players" don't exist - not as any type of entity you control or represent.  There is no Kendricke menace.  I'm not ignoring anyone, nor am I out to destroy the Templar class.</P> <P>I love being a Templar.  I...LOVE...BEING...A...TEMPLAR.  I've played this class in various forms in various games for several years now.  It fits my playstyle.  Even when it wasn't always the best class in some games, I still played the divine healer.  I have no agenda to destroy the class, nor to hold it back.  I just disagree with some folks who feel it's "broken" or "unplayable".  I grow frustrated by increasingly wild claims and hyperboles.  We've got enough issues without having to exaggerate for attention. </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>The exaggeration comes from frustration. Frustration that you and a very small number of others are responsible for. You have said that you agree that the Templar class needs tweaking, yet manage to also convey the impression that you think all is well. All this achieves is people making wilder and wilder claims as that is the equivalent of shouting on an internet message board. You can never win an argument here, so all that happens is people "shout" louder and louder. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>The problem is they are not shouting over the voices of other classes, ironically most other classes agree at least in part that we need to be improved. Instead, people are shouting mainly over YOU. Which is hilarious really because then we get more and more posts from you telling people they are exaggerating. You have managed to create the perfect vehicle by which you can increase your post count.</FONT></P> <P>So again, I ask, politely and humbly <FONT color=#ccffff>(oh the irony)</FONT> , that you cease the animosity against myself or those who disagree with you.  You've more than made your points.  If you dislike mine, then I politely ask that you leave me be.  I'll give you the same courtesy. </P> <P>No one - NO ONE wants to see this forum continue to evolve into a steady stream of hate filled liturgies from one Templar to another.  Let's agree to continue disagreeing and leave it at that.  I'm not going to see things your way and you're not going to see things my way.  Let's just accept that and move on. </P> <P>Thank you.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff> Post Count = Post Count+1. Whether you did this intentionally or not, it is a stroke of genius.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>Post Count = Post Count+1. Whether you did this intentionally or not, it is a stroke of genius.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Actually, it's better to do the following:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" color=#ffffff>m_intPostCount++;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>*ducks and runs away quickly*</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT> </DIV>

[Kharzho]

<FONT face=Helv size=2> <P>*raises hand* we are not broken.</P> <P>*raises hand* we need tweaks.</P> <P>If you want to go back to the uberness pre LU13; you may as well delete your character. We (and other classes...*cough Guardian cough*) were way to overpowered. Did I like it? At first yes, who doesn't like being supreme in a game where we 'compete' against our peers. After a while I got extremely bored. I was able to heal my party effectively with a *single* spell (group reactive). Ocassionally I would toss in a single reactive. In fact, I was able to read books while solo healing a group in a dungeon.</P> <P>Fun being that uber? Not for me -- I got bored.</P> <P>Why did I play EQ1 for years? It was a very difficult game and made you work for what you got; and because of that I had a tremendous sense of accomplishment when I achieved goals I set out for myself. Why did I hate WoW, Daoc, etc? To bloody easy. Why did I temporarily quit eq2? To bloody easy. I realize my 'perception' is I like having things that are more difficult -- therefor the 'new' templar fits my playstyle. I also recognize other people like 'easy' mode and hate it. I can't tell you how to enjoy the game -- only that it has changed and I don't believe continued postings on this board will fundamentally change the templar back to its supreme position that SOE intentially took away from us. </P> <P>I would like more dps; I would like more utility; all those will make the game more enjoyable (of course) but I do not think my class is 'broken' when I can get groups within 10 minutes of me logging on. In fact, if I am so broken why do I get multiple tells from random people asking if I am grouped because they need a healer.</P></FONT> <DIV>-Kharz</DIV> <DIV>58 templar</DIV> <DIV>Deaths Door</DIV> <DIV>Grobb</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<P>So we got the camp that posts saying we are ok and need some minor tweaks.  We have the other camp that says we are in bad shape and they post...and post...and post.  </P> <P>Welcome to the guardian forums heh.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>I like to think of myself as a "big picture" sort of person.  I'm not looking at the right now and what's immediately affecting me.  I like to look for larger issues coming over the horizon, or how this change might impact that or even that over there.  I also believe in working from actual data, not merely personal experience.  There's a place for opinions, to be sure...but the line (for me) is crossed when someone presents opinion as actual fact.  Then I start to wonder why the exaggeration is needed at all.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Seems to me that you have no data to support any of you claims. Despite being repeatedly asked for it, you have never presented any. Nor have you had any comments on the facts presented by others. But maybe that is because they prove you wrong. So you keep quiet and hope that people forget the facts before you post your beliefs again. And again. And again.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ccffff>But she does have hundreds of people agreeing with her. Whereas I would put it to you that the people who believe the things you just stated are in the minority. Which coincidentally is where you are with your opinion. </FONT> <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><EM>"The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority."</EM><BR>-Ralph W. Sockman</P> <P><EM>"Being in a minority, even a minority of one, did not make you mad."<BR></EM>-George Orwell</P> <P><EM>"The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking."<BR></EM>-A. A. Milne</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Fallacy: "Appeal to Popularity" Also Known as: <EM>Ad Populum</EM></P> <P>Description of Appeal to Popularity<BR>The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:</P> <UL> <UL> <LI>Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).</LI> <LI>Therefore X is true.</LI></UL></UL> <P>The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim.</P> <P>It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25 miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned out to be false.</P> <P>This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <DIV><FONT size=1>*Sources available upon request.</FONT></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>I like to think of myself as a "big picture" sort of person.  I'm not looking at the right now and what's immediately affecting me.  I like to look for larger issues coming over the horizon, or how this change might impact that or even that over there.  I also believe in working from actual data, not merely personal experience.  There's a place for opinions, to be sure...but the line (for me) is crossed when someone presents opinion as actual fact.  Then I start to wonder why the exaggeration is needed at all.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Seems to me that you have no data to support any of you claims. Despite being repeatedly asked for it, you have never presented any. Nor have you had any comments on the facts presented by others. But maybe that is because they prove you wrong. So you keep quiet and hope that people forget the facts before you post your beliefs again. And again. And again.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, I just send them directly to the development team utilizing the exact same tools you have access to (/feedback, etc.).  I would supply my parses and logs here, and then be told I was fabricating or skewing the data...so I stopped.  I have been providing the parses to logs to anyone who has contacted me privately requesting it however.  Several of us have been able to correlate some very significant data in that fashion.</P> <P> </P> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

[Kharzho]

<FONT face=Helv size=2> <P>I actually wish SOE would put a max messages a person could post per day / week / month. Would be interesting ....</P> <P><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I also miss the EQ1 message boards where people worked with each other to maximize their class, rather than yell at each other -- each in the hopes SOE will listen to them -- and believe the louder they yell, the more they post, the greater the odds SOE will do what THEY say.</P> <P>/sigh</P> <P>-Kharz</P> <P>58 templar</P> <P>Deaths Door</P> <P>Grobb</P></FONT>

[bigmak20]

Kendricke; You've put up some very revealing posts.  I don't doubt your sincerity about the Templar class. You love the class a-lot Kendricke -- so take off the rose colored glasses THEN look at the big picture. Here's what I think you see: --- The Templar class is working as intended according to the designers intent. Here's what I see (and others I think): --- The Templar class is working as intended according to the designers intent. Yep; the same thing. But -- we don't have those rose colored glasses on. We also see -- Classes without the (apparently erroneous) class description saying they specialized in healing get other skills that make them more valuable.  And get to heal as good (even arguably better). That's the BIG PICTURE. So where we all disagree with you (in my opinion of course) is they I/we think you DON'T see the big picture. So in my opinion we are always talking around a point I started making about 4 months ago. The only classes worth playing in this game are the classes with the most diverse talents since every class is equally good at their primary role.  Since I'm not wearing rose colored glasses I think that's a major screw up in design that SOE needs to fix.  I think it's going to kill this game.  I love my Templar too; I think this is a good game overall; but as it stands right now this game will die because Sony has now made it where there IS a holy trinity -- moreso then before LU13 (but note that some classes needed fixing).  The only reason anyone would play other then the most diverse class in any archetype is for purely esoteric reasons.  The only class worth playing in any archetype is the one with the most diverse skills -- leaving only a few classes worth playing.  Welcome to the new holy trinity of MMOs: 1) DPS'ing Tank 2) DPS'ing Healer 3) DPS'ing Caster (caster's seem to have the most success in variance in their archetype) Since Templars don't have DPS due to their "Traditional" role -- where does that leave us? Once again: offensive/defensive specialization needs to exist in archetypes for there to be a real subclass system.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <p>Actually, I just send them directly to the development team utilizing the exact same tools you have access to (/feedback, etc.).  I would supply my parses and logs here, and then be told I was fabricating or skewing the data...so I stopped.  I have been providing the parses to logs to anyone who has contacted me privately requesting it however.  Several of us have been able to correlate some very significant data in that fashion.</p> <hr></blockquote>Hmm, I guess it was because other people presented different kind of results for parses. Like said, they are situational. Thus people reverted to mathematics. And that proved what most templars have said, at least wardens and furies do outheal us and every other priest class also has more DPS. There has still been no comparison between shamans and clerics, so chances are that we will also be the worst healers.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Actually, I just send them directly to the development team utilizing the exact same tools you have access to (/feedback, etc.).  I would supply my parses and logs here, and then be told I was fabricating or skewing the data...so I stopped.  I have been providing the parses to logs to anyone who has contacted me privately requesting it however.  Several of us have been able to correlate some very significant data in that fashion.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, I guess it was because other people presented different kind of results for parses. Like said, they are situational. Thus people reverted to mathematics. And that proved what most templars have said, at least wardens and furies do outheal us and every other priest class also has more DPS. There has still been no comparison between shamans and clerics, so chances are that we will also be the worst healers.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's not what I'm seeing...or the other members of the Test chapter of the Legion of the White Rose ( we tend to play Test on weekends during the day).  Of course, I'm sure you see things differently.  Perception is reality after all.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>That's not what I'm seeing...or the other members of the Test chapter of the Legion of the White Rose ( we tend to play Test on weekends during the day).</p> <hr></blockquote>Of course you dont, since your perception is your reality. Honestly, the difference in healing is not that big in real situation, but is still is there. The difference in DPS however, is really significant. And BTW, SoE needs to change their view on how templars should be very fast if they want to have more than 2 or 3 healing classes left. And I can promise that not all who retire their templar will make an alt.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><another long post with clever little quotes, a definition of the word 'fallacy' from the dictionary, and some nonsense about popularism><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That whole post was just more (veiled) insults to the rest of us, basically saying we are stupid. No, you didn't say it so plainly, but that is what I interpreted it as. And once more, it is postcount+1, as someone else posted. On the one hand, you say you want civility and no more 'hate-filled' threads, on the other, you just keep on posting more and more comments on how much hyperbole we are all speaking, and implying we are all stupid. How about practicing what you preach, and dropping the subject?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars *are* "broken" to many of us.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Such a statement, in the context that has already been given, is not 'appealing to popularism'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not 'wild claims'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not 'hyperbole'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>It is not 'exaggeration'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it is not indicative of a low IQ.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>That's not what I'm seeing...or the other members of the Test chapter of the Legion of the White Rose ( we tend to play Test on weekends during the day).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Of course you dont, since your perception is your reality.<BR><BR>Honestly, the difference in healing is not that big in real situation, but is still is there. The difference in DPS however, is really significant.<BR><BR>And BTW, SoE needs to change their view on how templars should be very fast if they want to have more than 2 or 3 healing classes left. And I can promise that not all who retire their templar will make an alt.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, their perception is their reality.  If you want them to alter their perception (i.e. - reality), then you might want to find ways to do that.  I went over this in previous posts where I tried to point out (in the developers own posted words) what they will listen to and what they won't.  I was attacked (by yourself, actually - among others) for daring to point this out.  </P> <P>Besides which, I'm not buying the Slippery Slope fallacy you're selling there.  I would be surprised if the developers are, either.  I don't see the mass migrations you apparantly are.  It's been over two months.  I would daresay that the worst is likely behind us regarding account cancellations and class changes...or will we still be discussing "The End of the Templar is Near - Repent Now Ye Sinners!" in another six months?  ...a year?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Timaarit wrote:  <font color="#ffff00">"</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>Thus people reverted to mathematics. And that <font size="4">proved</font> what most templars have said, at least wardens and furies do outheal us and every other priest class also has more DPS</span></font><font color="#ffff00">"</font> Loathe as I am to agree with Kendricke on anything, purely because of his posting style, the first part is utterly wrong. I've read the posts about comparative heals, and they are all based on simplifications.  You cannot leave out each classes speciality heals, the mobs, the other players in the group, the type of tank, the choice of buffs, weapons, INT/WIS/STR ... My own parses show that I generally heal more than another priest if grouped with one.  Wow "proof" you might say, but wait up, the other priest is normally a Warden or Fury, and HoT will be wasted when the reactive gets in first.  Normally (unllike dps) 2 healers in a group won't be competing anyway. There is no average group, there is no average content.  Even having 5 members of a group stay the same and swapping in each of the healers, all fitted out with exactly the same level of spells and equipment  to do the same fight over and over would be skewed by the 5 unchanging members learning.  (always assuming you can get the players to do that). SoE are the only people in a postion to PROVE anything mathematically. I personally feel we are still the top healer if played well. The second point I'm more interested in - dps  Kendricke states as one of his "facts" that we are not the lowest dps class in the game.  I'd love to know what is then.  That annoying brat that runs around Nettleville hovel asking if we have "seen a gnoll before" ? <div></div>

[Barodur_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrilee wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>I’m a level 60 Templar.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I rarely post here, and neither do the majority of Templars in this game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I see maybe 10-15 folks regularly posting here. On a typical weekday night there are 80-90 Templars on my server alone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Multiply that across all the servers, and you get the picture.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>For those few of you who do spend so much time here bickering and complaining, have you ever considered what that is doing to public perception of our abilities as Templars?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some misinformed people think we are completely gimped, thanks to you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>I’m not gimped, thank you very much.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I heal just as well as I did before the combat changes.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>I still duo yellow ^^^ heroics with my partner, a Dirge, just as we have done since we left the Isle of Refuge a year ago.<SPAN>   </SPAN>I can and regularly do solo heal my groups in Scornfeather Roost, Ancient’s Table and Poet’s Palace.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>Love fury and mystic classes (I play those too), but those I know don’t even try those zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>The groups I regularly play with trust me to keep them alive as sole healer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But, I am amazed to see many who don’t know anything about priest classes with the perception that it can’t be done.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some also seem to have the misperception that furies are better healers, but ironically, the furies I know won’t even group in challenging zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I assume the misinformed folks are reading the boards and believing all this drivel.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Kindly stop tarnishing our reputations, get out there and play, live up to your potential and have fun. Upgrade your spells, it makes a world of difference to all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Those of you in your early 50’s, remember that you will feel and heal dramatically better upon reaching level 54.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And please always remember, it is not the class, but the player behind the character, that makes a great healer.</FONT></SPAN></P> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie Moonglimmer, Vanguard of the Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Level 60 Templar</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Guildleader, Elven Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I find it mildly amusing that you attribute the fact that people think we are gimped to these boards, when noone other than Templars and the occasional fury actually reads them. I know I haven't spent any great time in the Assassin forum. </P> <P>I think far more damage is being done by those awful combatstats type things that some people love so much. I was in an xp group doing AT the other day and we had someone in who insisted on showing everyones DPS after every fight. Well, guess who was at the bottom after each fight hovering around the 0 - 50 mark.</P> <P>Now, a few jokes were made about this but everyone of course seemed to accept that Im the healer I shouldnt be DPS'ing. Until some bright spark who's sister was a fury made the point that she does far more damage and manages to keep the group alive by herself as well.</P> <P>For the rest of the evening I was made to feel like an xp leach. It was all done with the veneer of humour and just having a laugh but you could tell everyone was now thinking "if we had a fury we could be killing stuff much quicker".</P> <P>Now, you may not agree with them. You can argue, sure, Templars are the best healers by 20%, there is less chance of you dying with me. You just know though that they couldn't give a rats anus about 20% more healing when 20% less but more xp is the other alternative.</P> <P>That's the kind of thing that is getting us the reputation of having a gimped class. Because 5 people went away from that group with the thought that furies are better than Templars and there was nothing I could do, not one fancy spell I could cast, to make them think otherwise. They will now go and tell other people the same thing, when they are forming up new groups and someone says "see if you can get a fury, theyre better than Templars". Before you know it, the whole bloody server is thinking the same thing.</P> <P>Then people like you, with your steady group of friends who would play with you even if you were REALLY gimped, come on here saying there is nothing wrong, I can heal people, whats the problem. I'll tell you what the problem is. You're so stuck in your cushy world of regular groups that you don't know what its like to interact with people who dont know you and only judge you on the abilities of your class. People like the group above who would probably of found an excuse to drop if a fury stuck his /lfg tag on.</P> <P>The fact of the matter is yes, we are probably still the best healers by some small percentage. We should be, after all much of our utility is made up of heals (whether you think they are effective or not). However, that percentage means nothing now as there is maybe 1 - 2% of encounters where that actually makes a difference. In the meantime we are stuck with the reputation that we cannot DPS for toffee which leads to the reputation that our class is gimped.</P> <P>And if coming onto the official Templar boards and raising that as an issue is then causing some ripples well I don't see that as a problem. We've already had some response from Devs and I truly believe that we are being looked at. Besides, what else are we supposed to do. Close our eyes and hope mommy makes everything better?</P> <P>When our class is improved are you going to then come in here complaining? I don't think so.</P> <P>Message Edited by Anduri on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Long post to quote there, but Anduri hit it right on the head. I duo in groups with my wife a lot whom plays a 48 Fury. I'm currently lvl 51. While I can heal somewhat better, she is prized much more for her utility spells over my heals. Compared to Furies, all heals aside - what do we have to offer? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take this for example as well. I went into Nek Castle the other day with the purpose of getting to Everling's chamber for my final piece of the Tarton's Wheel update. Easy enough I thought, since I'm lvl 51...everything is grey....should be a piece of cake. Wrong. My adventure ended in the chapel when I ran oop trying to nuke down the spirits to spawn Alexa. Being that they heal themselves, I got the first one down to red, but before I could finish her off, she was almost back up to full health from heals. Granted, my nukes aren't adept 3 quality...but bare with me here. After about 5 minutes of then beating on them with my HC and doing next to nothing damage wise....I broke encounter and ran to the zone line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok...plan B. I log on my wife's Fury and run her to Nek....with SoW and PoC it's a pleasant little trip. Group up with my Templar...put him on auto follow and cast her buffs. I mow through the entire zone without any assistance from my Templar. With nukes that do approx 760 something damage and her ae nuke that does about 800 something to the entire encounter, she makes short work of the grey mobs that would have laughed at my efforts to beat them to a slow death. I can tell you from experience - soloing with a Fury is FAAAAAAAAAAAR better than with a Templar. Being able to play both a Templar and Fury of similar lvl....the difference is as obvious as night and day. Why are some of you so blind?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to all of the Templars that come here with your "quit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about being broke, maybe other Templars can solo fine - you just can't." Please get your heads out of your arses. I for one am not complaining about heals. I agree with you - we heal FINE. Can you agree with me that other than that....we're lacking?</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><another long post with clever little quotes, a definition of the word 'fallacy' from the dictionary, and some nonsense about popularism><BR></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I wrote none of that post actually.  The entire post was quoted from other sources (available upon request).  The particular passage on "nonsense about popularism" is a direct quote from Dr. Michael C. Labossiere.  In addition to being a fairly renowned Professor of Philosophy at various institutions around the country, he's also a well known contributor and consultant to various RPG's (PnP and online as well).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another popular description of this fallacy comes from Information Pollution online:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>In an appeal to popularity (or appeal to numbers, the bandwagon) it is claimed that something is good or right because it is popular.  For example, it might be claimed that creationism should be taught in the schools because a majority of people support the idea.  But popularity is an insufficient cause for believing that something is true.  And there are good reasons for not teaching creationism, it is pseudo-science and a violation of the separation of church and state. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>A more involved discussion on the fallacy was penned by Professor Bruce Thompson:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Truth is not democratic. One person can reason as well as a hundred, and a hundred people can be just as wrong as one. A position is not necessarily true merely because it is held by a lot of people, nor is a position necessarily false merely because it is held by only a few. When Einstein was advocating pacifism, a group of fellow scientists tried to counter his influence by stating their opposition to pacifism. They published a collection of essays titled One Hundred Scientists Against Einstein. When Einstein heard the title, he remarked, "If I were wrong, one would have been enough."</DIV> <DIV><BR>However, the Ad Populum fallacy certainly has a powerful psychological effect - sometimes known as the "bandwagon effect." And there are good reasons for this. Generally, following the predominant opinion of the inquiring community is not a bad idea. In the first place, it is certainly true that errors in reasoning are less likely to occur if the reasoning has been checked many times. One accountant may make a mistake or two. A second accountant might catch some of those mistakes. By the time a hundred accountants have gone over the books, few if any mistakes will remain. Hence, there are good grounds for supposing that if many people hold a position, the position is likely to be true. Moreover, in my view, being rational at all means appealing to reasons (and forms of reasoning) that pass public muster. An individual may have idiosyncratic reasons for his beliefs. He becomes a rational thinker when he realizes that he must persuade not only himself, but anyone who examines his reasons. Hence, the test of valid reasoning is its ability to stand up to public scrutiny. Truth is not democratic; but reasoning must be done in public.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Ad Populum fallacy exploits the public nature of reasoning. However, the fallacy confuses the distinction between a popular (and often unthinking) acceptance of a particular conclusion with a public acknowledgment of the principles by which conclusions should be reached. Sometimes the fallacy is even used to draw conclusions about matters that really are just matters of personal taste (e.g. which soft drink you should prefer), thus confusing the public nature of reasoning with private questions of taste.<BR> <BR>  <BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Big Da]

<P>The amount of personal attacks in this post has once again brought this down to a flame war. In my experience from reading these forums I’ve formed a few opinions.</P> <P>Ken seems to have a very condescending way of dealing with others which I believe is unintentional. He can be quite reasonable if you take this on board before replying. Read his post twice before you start yours. I think his pursuit of Templar issues is useful if he does not let his personal bias impact his interaction with the Dev team. I for one do not have the time or energy to do peruse these issues beyond the odd post on these boards.</P> <P>Caethre does seem more representative of the average Templars viewpoint, if you go by the posts on these forums. It is very low to attack the wording of her posts if the intention itself is clear. The templar is not broken IMO but flawed and Caethre does a good job of highlight exactly in what respects this may be true.</P> <P>So my 5cp ... Ken and Caethre's viewpoints are now buried under piles of useless argument. I doubt the Devs have the time to wade through bickering to find any gems of worth. Anyone else who wishes to voice their opinions is drowned out by these puerile flame wars; it’s all a bit disappointing. :smileysad:</P>

[Viane]

I dont post often, however I did feel the need to respond to this one.  I honestly dont  see how difficult it is to understand the problems facing the current templar.  Pre-revamp I rolled a templar because I wanted to heal, plain and simple.  I knew that I would sacrifice dps and soloability because I chose to play the best healer (in my opinion).  I reached level 50, became bored and rolled a fury.  Why? Because I like being a healer, but thought it would be fun to play a character that could heal decently, but do a great deal of damage as well.  When I chose these classes those were the reasons why, and obviously I cant speak for all of EQ2, but I imagine that's why many people chose their respective classes as well. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Post re-vamp, SoE decides to make all healers heal equally.  Fine.  Do I care that other healers now heal as well as i do? Not in the least, great for them I'm happy they can heal.  However the problem now comes in that templars have no other role.  We heal that's it.  We have pathetic dps and our debuff leaves a great deal to be desired. Other classes have varied secondary lines and utilities that actually do something other than heal.  All we can do is heal....that's it nothing more.  If all heal classes can heal equally (granted some will be a bit better in certain situations), shouldn't every class have some type of secondary line other than healing or at least be able to have decent dps?  Obviously, healing is no longer an issue with classes so why are templars stuck being able to do nothing other than heal?  Is it so difficult to understand that now that healers have been balanced, I simply want something  that actually has a pupose other than healing?  I was happy with my templar pre revamp, yes.  Because I had a niche, I had a role. Now any healer can fill that role and also bring something extra to the table, which I cannot do.  How is that so difficult to understand?<BR></DIV> <DIV>Flame away if you must.  My templar is now shelfed for raid only as I imagine many others have done.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Celestia-Lvl 60 Templar</DIV>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Barodur_04 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Anduri wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Merrilee wrote: <div></div> <p><font color="#ffffff" size="3">I’m a level 60 Templar.<span>  </span>I rarely post here, and neither do the majority of Templars in this game.<span>  </span>I see maybe 10-15 folks regularly posting here. On a typical weekday night there are 80-90 Templars on my server alone.<span>  </span>Multiply that across all the servers, and you get the picture.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff" size="3">For those few of you who do spend so much time here bickering and complaining, have you ever considered what that is doing to</font> </p> <p><span><font color="#ffffff" size="3">..........</font></span></p> <p><span><font color="#ffffff" size="3">and have fun. Upgrade your spells, it makes a world of difference to all classes.<span>  </span>Those of you in your early 50’s, remember that you will feel and heal dramatically better upon reaching level 54.<span>  </span>And please always remember, it is not the class, but the player behind the character, that makes a great healer.</font></span></p> <div><span><font size="3">Kind regards,</font></span></div> <div><span><font size="3"></font></span> </div> <div><span><font size="3">Eillie</font></span></div> <div><span><font size="3"></font></span> </div> <div><span><font size="3">Eillie Moonglimmer, Vanguard of the Blades</font></span></div> <div><span><font size="3">Level 60 Templar</font></span></div> <div><span><font size="3">Guildleader, Elven Blades</font></span></div> <div><span><font size="3"></font></span> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I find it mildly amusing that you attribute the fact that people think we are gimped to these boards, when noone other than Templars and the occasional fury actually reads them. I know I haven't spent any great time in the Assassin forum. </p> <p>I think far more damage is being done by those awful combatstats type things that some people love so much. I was in an xp group doing AT the other day and we had someone in who insisted on showing everyones DPS after every fight. Well, guess who was at the bottom after each fight hovering around the 0 - </p> <p>............. </p> <p>a difference. In the meantime we are stuck with the reputation that we cannot DPS for toffee which leads to the reputation that our class is gimped.</p> <p>And if coming onto the official Templar boards and raising that as an issue is then causing some ripples well I don't see that as a problem. We've already had some response from Devs and I truly believe that we are being looked at. Besides, what else are we supposed to do. Close our eyes and hope mommy makes everything better?</p> <p>When our class is improved are you going to then come in here complaining? I don't think so.</p> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class="date_text">11-30-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:56 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>........<div> </div> <div><b><font color="#ff0000">Take this for example as well. I went into Nek Castle the other day with the purpose of getting to Everling's chamber for my final piece of the Tarton's Wheel update. Easy enough I thought, since I'm lvl 51...everything is grey....should be a piece of cake. Wrong. My adventure ended in the chapel when I ran oop trying to nuke down the spirits to spawn Alexa. Being that they heal themselves, I got the first one down to red, but before I could finish her off, she was almost back up to full health from heals. Granted, my nukes aren't adept 3 quality...but bare with me here. After about 5 minutes of then beating on them with my HC and doing next to nothing damage wise....I broke encounter and ran to the zone line.</font></b></div> <div><b><font color="#ff0000"> </font></b></div> <div><b><font color="#ff0000">Ok...plan B. I log on my wife's Fury and run her to Nek....with SoW and PoC it's a pleasant little trip. Group up with my Templar...put him on auto follow and cast her buffs. I mow through the entire zone without any assistance from my Templar. With nukes that do approx 760 something damage and her ae nuke that does about 800 something to the entire encounter, she makes short work of the grey mobs that would have laughed at my efforts to beat them to a slow death. I can tell you from experience - soloing with a Fury is FAAAAAAAAAAAR better than with a Templar. Being able to play both a Templar and Fury of similar lvl....the difference is as obvious as night and day. Why are some of you so blind?</font></b></div> <div><b><font color="#ff0000"> </font></b></div> <div><b><font color="#ff0000">So to all of the Templars that come here with your "quit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about being broke, maybe other Templars can solo fine - you just can't." Please get your heads out of your arses. I for one am not complaining about heals. I agree with you - we heal FINE. Can you agree with me that other than that....we're lacking?</font></b></div><hr></blockquote>(sorry for the ........ but long posts) Take THAT to the devs Kendricke.  That's the type of real gameplay experience the rest of us are upset about.  It is not "perceived" or "perception" it is REAL.  Can you capture that in a parse?  No.  Please for the love of everything Templar take a real honest to goodness look at the big picture. Is it right for a priest to be able to do that AND heal as good as every other priest? Hell no.  And it isn't JUST furies other priests could probably do that too. Sony needs to bring back offensive and defensive specializations in archetypes. </span><div></div>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrilee wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>I’m a level 60 Templar.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I rarely post here, and neither do the majority of Templars in this game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I see maybe 10-15 folks regularly posting here. On a typical weekday night there are 80-90 Templars on my server alone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Multiply that across all the servers, and you get the picture.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>For those few of you who do spend so much time here bickering and complaining, have you ever considered what that is doing to public perception of our abilities as Templars?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some misinformed people think we are completely gimped, thanks to you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>I’m not gimped, thank you very much.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I heal just as well as I did before the combat changes.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>I still duo yellow ^^^ heroics with my partner, a Dirge, just as we have done since we left the Isle of Refuge a year ago.<SPAN>   </SPAN>I can and regularly do solo heal my groups in Scornfeather Roost, Ancient’s Table and Poet’s Palace.<SPAN>  </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>Love fury and mystic classes (I play those too), but those I know don’t even try those zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>The groups I regularly play with trust me to keep them alive as sole healer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But, I am amazed to see many who don’t know anything about priest classes with the perception that it can’t be done.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some also seem to have the misperception that furies are better healers, but ironically, the furies I know won’t even group in challenging zones without two healers.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I assume the misinformed folks are reading the boards and believing all this drivel.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Kindly stop tarnishing our reputations, get out there and play, live up to your potential and have fun. Upgrade your spells, it makes a world of difference to all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Those of you in your early 50’s, remember that you will feel and heal dramatically better upon reaching level 54.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And please always remember, it is not the class, but the player behind the character, that makes a great healer.</FONT></SPAN></P> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Eillie Moonglimmer, Vanguard of the Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Level 60 Templar</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3>Guildleader, Elven Blades</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>hehehe ...well If your really reading these boards you would see that very very few mention our ability to heal . Its the utility we got stuck with after they balanced all healers to be very close in healing and they even stated that if we are not close they will make further corrections or tweaks as neccessary to make sure all healing classes can keep a group alive with the same  healing capacity just by different means  .  Keep reading Eillie <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and please pay close attention to what the Devs say about the healing classes if you think you heal better than a fury its merely a figment of your imagination <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Big Da]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[BenEm]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Besides which, I'm not buying the Slippery Slope fallacy you're selling there.  I would be surprised if the developers are, either.  I don't see the mass migrations you apparantly are.  It's been over two months.  I would daresay that the worst is likely behind us regarding account cancellations and class changes...or will we still be discussing "The End of the Templar is Near - Repent Now Ye Sinners!" in another six months?  ...a year?</p> <hr></blockquote>You dont see what you dont want to see, you have made that clear.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Antryg Mistrose wrote: My own parses show that I generally heal more than another priest if grouped with one.  Wow "proof" you might say, but wait up, the other priest is normally a Warden or Fury, and HoT will be wasted when the reactive gets in first.  Normally (unllike dps) 2 healers in a group won't be competing anyway. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Kend's parses show the same and for that same reason. Try same parsing in a raid and you will see how things actually are. Parsing should be done aseither one as the only healer. And those have been done and even presented here. K has ignored them all.</span><div></div>

[Manit]

<div></div><double post> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div>Blah blah blah blah. To all the posts i didn't read. Sorry, i just don't have want to set aside the time because I bet there were some good ones (however rare). <rant>And...Much of the forums are full of complaining, and much of it false or irrelevant. And I swear to the next person who says "i have the right to my opinion" will have their head boiled in acid and given to my pet dragon then your remains defecated will be hexed. Not about expressing your opinion; it's about how an opinion is express. I am not saying any sort that opnions should only be agreements.</rant> I agree with the OP. Eversince I have grouped, I have not met one druid or shaman subclass that has better heals. (yes, i actually ask them). In groups, however, healing is not everything; warding is equally as important. With the wards of a shaman, they can become just as useful as a templar. Point is most the priest subclasses are equal however achieve the same goal differently. As far as soloing, templars are not DPSers! If you want a DPS healer, then go play a fury. THat's what furies do (heal a little and DPS a little). The priest's classes are broken down in various avenues. There are priests that mainly ward and heal a little. There arepriests that mainly heal and ward a little. There are priests that mainly DPS and heal a little. <u>Do not ask SOE to make the all the priests the same!!</u> <font color="#ff0033"> </font><font color="#ff0033">--- Mitakuye Oyasin, Oasis (lvl37templar, lvl38alchemist)</font><font color="#ff0033"> </font><font color="#ff0033">--- Parn Tessius, Oasis (lvl21gaurdian, lvl38woodworker)</font> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Manitos wrote: As far as soloing, templars are not DPSers! If you want a DPS healer, then go play a fury. THat's what furies do (heal a little and DPS a little). The priest's classes are broken down in various avenues. There are priests that mainly ward and heal a little. There arepriests that mainly heal and ward a little. There are priests that mainly DPS and heal a little. <u>Do not ask SOE to make the all the priests the same!!</u> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok. So what are templars then? We have same healing power as furies. If furies are DPS, what are templars other than an obsolete class? If you answer is 'healers', then aren't furies healers? Why aren't they since they heal as well as templars? But then why are they also DPS but templars should not be? Sorry, your argument is old and BS.</span><div></div>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Parsing should be done aseither one as the only healer. And those have been done and even presented here. K has ignored them all.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You have said this a number of times now.  Can you link to some of these parses?  I've been reading this forum for a while, and I've never seen them.  In any case, I'm not sure what a parse would prove.  Pure healing ability is binary--either you can do it or the group dies.</P> <P>I would be interested in a torture test, personally.  Get a fury and a templar of equal level and equipment quality, put each in a group with the same tank and the same dps toon and put them up against continually more difficult mobs.   Then see how high they could go.   Give each group a few tries to get strategy down.  In my opinion, since a fury has more dps, they should not be able to go as high in most cases.  Can they?  Of course, the quality of the player will be important here as well, as will as the ability set of the mob, but it would still be an interesting experiment.</P> <P>Alephin</P>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR>I don't.  Disagreement which is stated in a civil, non-demeaning manner, doesn't bother me at all.  I simply continue to state my opinions.  I do, however, wonder why some work so hard to prevent significant improvement.  I can't see how some significant improvement to the class is going to hurt anyone. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm all for arguing for Warlock DPS, Bruiser Avoidance, Guardian Mitigation, Defiler Debuffs, and the best heals from every priest class.  From a purely Templar point of view, that class would <EM>R00L!!!111!!  </EM>Then I start thinking of overall balance, and realize it doesn't really fit what I think should fit. </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Why do you throw that in ... you KNOW nobody is asking for that.</FONT></P> <P>I like to think of myself as a "big picture" sort of person.  I'm not looking at the right now and what's immediately affecting me.  I like to look for larger issues coming over the horizon, or how this change might impact that or even that over there.  I also believe in working from actual data, not merely personal experience.  There's a place for opinions, to be sure...but the line (for me) is crossed when someone presents opinion as actual fact.  Then I start to wonder why the exaggeration is needed at all.</P> <P>I'm also always looking for curing the disease, not merely the symptoms.  I'm always trying to ask questions and challenge assumptions.  If someone says that Templars need more DPS, I ask myself why this is an issue now and not before the revamp?  What's different now?  We never had great DPS.  So why is it suddenly the rallying cry that some have chosen to suddenly bandy behind now?  If it wasn't an issue before, how can it be the cause of the issue now?</P> <P>My conclusion is that it's not.  There's a deeper issue.  So I start looking deeper.  When did the DPS arguments really kick in?  After the revamp.  What did the revamp do to Templars?  Brought our healing more in line with other priests (by reigning Wardens and Templars back and boosting heals on other classes).  Ok, so what's the correlation between DPS and heal balacing?  Now Templars feel that we have to compete for groups?  That's a possibility.  Is that intended?  Yes, I think it is.</P> <P>Then I have to ask myself a deeper question:  Are Templars closer to what was intended by SOE now...or before the revamp?  Honestly, I keep finding myself here at this question and I keep finding myself answering it in the same way - that yes, I think we're closer to intended now than before.  I was involved with pre-planning community discussions back in 2003 - before Moorgard was even hired, back when Stuart Compton was art director (not Joe Shoopak) and Bill Trost was still heading up the design team.  Even then, they were discussing the idea that the game would have no "Holy Trinity" as Everquest had largely evolved into.  Even then, they were talking about designing a game without complete heals and an archetype system, where there would be no one ultimate healer class.</P> <P>Obviously, the actuality and the ideal stood miles apart in implementation for the first 10 months of release.  Now that this has been reigned in, I believe we see a closer view of what the Templar was supposed to be originally.  It's not perfect yet, but it's getting the game as a whole back toward where it needed to be all along.</P> <P>Now, we hear that you'll soon be choosing your subclass at creation, and there will be new Isles to set foot on up front.  The death mechanic is changing once again, and we'll soon have field repair kits for our armor.  The tradeskill system's getting an overhaul soon according to early reports, and soon we'll be looking at even more adjustments to combat and encounters.  I, for one, look forward to these changes...and some are quite overdue.  </P> <P>So yes, sometimes I might seem a bit oblvious to some of the issues others here might deem important.  I think that's because I'm always trying to see the greater picture...I'm always trying to see the forest, not merely the trees.  I'm sure others are as well, but they simply see things differently than I.  Perception is reality.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oddly enough, I think of myself as a "big picture" type of person also.  In my view, that's right, MY view, the big picture on the templar class in this game is that it has serious problems.  Even if we heal "well enough", it is, overall, a dull boring class to play.</P> <P>Our "utility" is pathetic, in my view.  People keep saying our utility is extra healing.  Well, ok, then, if we give up other utility (and DPS) for utility healing then our healing should be superior - across the board - but it isn't.</P> <P>Our DPS is the lowest.  Okay, I could accept that if our healing was the greatest - across the board.  But, since it isn't, what exactly do we get in return for living with pathetic DPS.  Lately, I've been playing my alts and talking to a lot of people to get their thoughts, and, after doing so, I have changed my opinion.  Whereas I used to say I thought templar soloing was acceptable, now I am convinced it is not.  Previously I think I was comparing mostly to my EQ1 cleric, and on that comparison, templar soloing is clearly superior.  But that's the wrong comparison ... what I should be comparing to is the rest of THIS game and the classes in it.  On that comparison, templar soloing is simply pathetic.  </P> <P>Unfortunately, lately I haven't had a lot of time to play, so I've had to solo a lot more than I would like.  All I can say is that this is torture, which is why my templar is now sitting on the shelf while I play my alts.</P> <P>If the current templar is good enough for you, that's great - for you.  Obviously it isn't good enough for a lot of people.  I'm sorry, Kendricke, but I am not interested in looking at your "data".  Maybe the numbers convince you whether you're having fun or not but they don't do diddly squat for me.  To me, if it feels wrong it is wrong.  This is a game.  I am looking for entertainment and fun.  I will reserve my numbers analysis for RL situations where the numbers control.</P> <P>Give me superior healing OR give me overall balance and functionality.  Your choice, SOE.  I can live with either.</P> <P>Additionally, as you know, I consider the templar healing scheme to be quite ill-conceived.  Others don't agree.  That's fine.  This is my opinion.  We cast mostly spells which do nothing until some event happens.  We are a walking proc or potion factory.  This removes the satisfaction of playing with real heals.  You cast stuff, and sit back and wait for the right thing to happen so that the stuff we cast does something.  Bzzzt.  No sale.  By now I have a hands-on comparison of how the reactive healing works when compared to the combo of HOTs and DHs.  I will take the latter any day.  I feel like I am doing something. Yes, in moments of extremely fast damage HOTs don't pour in healing at the rate of reactives.  That means nada to me, and it's easily solved.  Give me the HOT and DH combo any day, so I can be a real healer.</P> <P>Anyway, there's more but I have to run ...<BR></P>

[Manit]

<span>"<font color="#ccff00">Ok. So what are templars then? We have same healing power as furies. If furies are DPS, what are templars other than an obsolete class?</font><font color="#ccff00"> </font> <font color="#ccff00"> </font><font color="#ccff00"> If you answer is 'healers', then aren't furies healers? Why aren't they since they heal as well as templars? But then why are they also DPS but templars should not be?" --- a previous poster</font> Templars are healers and decent debuffers. Get over it. Druids do not even come close to the healing of a templar (across board). As I mentioned before, not one player has said a fury beats or equals the healing of a templar; or, has shown the converse. Please, I am always up for some enlightenment; for the Druids best heal, type the name and heal description HP ranges and other relevant info for spells up to lvl37. So... "Templars are obsolete because they cannot DPS." THey DPS just find for soloing. I have had zero issues. Sounds like someone has a bit of DPS envy. Of course Druids are healers. I have never said Druids are not healers. Once again, please, I am always up for some enlightenment; for the furies best heal, type the name and heal description HP range and other relevant info for the spell up to lvl37. <font color="#ff0033">--- Mitakuy Oyasin, Oasis (lvl37templar, lvl38alchemist)</font><font color="#ff0033"> </font><font color="#ff0033">--- Parn Tessius, Oasis (lvl21gaurdian, lvl38woodworker)</font> </span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Manitos wrote:<span> Templars are healers and decent debuffers. Get over it. Druids do not even come close to the healing of a templar (across board). As I mentioned before, not one player has said a fury beats or equals the healing of a templar; or, has shown the converse. Please, I am always up for some enlightenment; for the Druids best heal, type the name and heal description HP ranges and other relevant info for spells up to lvl37. So... "Templars are obsolete because they cannot DPS." THey DPS just find for soloing. I have had zero issues. Sounds like someone has a bit of DPS envy. Of course Druids are healers. I have never said Druids are not healers. Once again, please, I am always up for some enlightenment; for the furies best heal, type the name and heal description HP range and other relevant info for the spell up to lvl37.<font color="#ff0033"></font> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Fury is also a healer and decent debuffer. So since furies are also DPS, what else are templars than healers and debuffers? You see since templar = fury in healing and utility, there has to be a '=' sign in DPS comparison too. So again you think that fury should have equal healing, equal utility but far better DPS and less nothing. That is not balance. No matter how hard you try to cinvince yourself.</span><div></div>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:<span>"<font color="#ccff00">Ok. So what are templars then? We have same healing power as furies. If furies are DPS, what are templars other than an obsolete class?</font><font color="#ccff00"> </font> <font color="#ccff00"> </font><font color="#ccff00"> If you answer is 'healers', then aren't furies healers? Why aren't they since they heal as well as templars? But then why are they also DPS but templars should not be?" --- a previous poster</font> Templars are healers and decent debuffers. Get over it. Druids do not even come close to the healing of a templar (across board). As I mentioned before, not one player has said a fury beats or equals the healing of a templar; or, has shown the converse. Please, I am always up for some enlightenment; for the Druids best heal, type the name and heal description HP ranges and other relevant info for spells up to lvl37. So... "Templars are obsolete because they cannot DPS." THey DPS just find for soloing. I have had zero issues. Sounds like someone has a bit of DPS envy. Of course Druids are healers. I have never said Druids are not healers. Once again, please, I am always up for some enlightenment; for the furies best heal, type the name and heal description HP range and other relevant info for the spell up to lvl37. <font color="#ff0033">--- Mitakuy Oyasin, Oasis (lvl37templar, lvl38alchemist)</font><font color="#ff0033"> </font><font color="#ff0033">--- Parn Tessius, Oasis (lvl21gaurdian, lvl38woodworker)</font> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Druids do not come close to Templars healing power?  SOE are liars?  All the parses, posts, comparisons all over are lies? Learn to read. /sigh </span><div></div>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Then repost...Just as easy for me to read as it is for you to repost. Heck, even easier and faster at repost'n...ctrl+c...ctrl+v...2 minutes...take much longer then 2 minutes for me to read all the freak'n pages here. Up to lvl37. The name of the druids best heal, hp range, power cost, recast time, and other important info. Extremely easy and, oh, i expect it to be honest because i always validate. Arrgghh...Come on servers. Get online!! hands....shaking....need....EQ2... <span>:mansurprised:</span><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[Merrilee]

<P> </P> <P>Felish, you know I have the greatest affection and respect for you sis. *hugs*  My comments were not directed at you.  I was not even sure what level your Templar is now... the fact remains that life gets so much better after level 54 for us.  </P> <P>I am fine with constructive and calm suggestions for improving our class, and in my mind that is generally what you are trying to do.   I'm not fine with the "Templars are worthless, we suck, I quit" type of threads and posts on these boards-- in my opinion it hurts public perception of Templars and makes people who would otherwise want to group with us believe we are worthless.   Anyway, to the extent we disagree, it is a good thing we can disagree and still be friends. </P> <P>Get Annaelisa to 60, and we will have some fun and do some field testing with groups... and maybe throw in a duel just for fun, hehe.  You have played EQ1 and EQ2 as long as I have, both from release, and I know you are equally skilled.   If you can convince me that a Fury can keep up with me in healing, I'll come back here and eat my words. *grin*  Maybe on one turn I'll just put Glory of Combat on all the melees and sit back and do my nails, lol.</P> <P>Hugs,</P> <P>Eillie</P> <P>Oh.. to the poster up there who was calling me a "he,"  I'm female, thank you very much, lol.</P> <DIV>And in response to the comments that people may pick Furies over Templars due to Fury DPS- Fury DPS in a challenging group situation is a non-issue in my opinion: their DPS is insignificant compared to a caster's, and they should be too busy healing to nuke. IMHO a responsible healer is not going to risk nuking in a tough fight, when during casting and recovery time a group member could die. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I much prefer having our 7 second stun, which is incredibly useful, I use it multiple times in every hard fight.  Great for saving those overachieving wizzies. ;p Other great spells- Salvation line, instant cast, works 100% of the time, saves a party member from certain death.  Resurrection, 100% Rez, gets that tank up and back in action at 100% health with no rez sickness.  Glory of Combat, 'nuff said. I would not trade these spells for higher DPS, period.</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Then repost...Just as easy for me to read as it is for you to repost. Heck, even easier and faster at repost'n...ctrl+c...ctrl+v...2 minutes...take much longer then 2 minutes for me to read all the freak'n pages here. Up to lvl37. The name of the druids best heal, hp range, power cost, recast time, and other important info<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class="date_text">11-30-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Read the board, though there are 'only' t5 and t6 spells written down. And since you figured out how to copy-paste, I am sure you can read them yourself without outside assistance.</span><div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><span><font color="#ccff00">"Read the board, though there are 'only' t5 and t6 spells written down. And since you figured out how to copy-paste, I am sure you can read them yourself without outside assistance." --- a previous poster</font> I mean...come on...at the least give me the name of the thread, there isn't any thread with the words "spell" or "t5" in the title. Blah. Heck, be more useful than writing that dribble and just state the data ya know. Stop the BS!!</span><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<div></div>Well one single target discussion is in warden board, it was referred to templar board as 'proof' that templars have 30% more healing power than furies. Turned out that the difference is less than 5% and it doesn't include t6 ancient spells which turn it so that furies are nearly twice as good as templars... So go to warden board and look for title "What is the Warden's equivalent of the Fury's...". Pages 3 and 4 have the numbers. and BTW, similar comparisons have been made for class heals. I am sure you can look them up if you are interested. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 PM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div>Awesome...thx for that...im check'n it out now. Be interesting to know the answer to my previous question about spells up to lvl37; however, i understand the servers are freak'n locked right now, danget. Honestly, I care about the big picure. The "hp / power point" timer and cast/recast timer; this is the crux. If the thread doesn't provide the power cost, cast/recast timer, and of course other info such as hp range and such, then the data is pointless.<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manitos wrote:<BR> Blah blah blah blah. To all the posts i didn't read. Sorry, i just don't have want to set aside the time because I bet there were some good ones (however rare).<BR><BR>And...Much of the forums are full of complaining, and much of it false or irrelevant. And I swear to the next person who says "i have the right to my opinion" will have their head boiled in acid and given to my pet dragon then your remains defecated will be hexed. Not about expressing your opinion; it's about how an opinion is express. I am not saying any sort that opnions should only be agreements.<BR><BR>I agree with the OP.<BR><BR>Eversince I have grouped, I have not met one druid or shaman subclass that has better heals. (yes, i actually ask them). In groups, however, healing is not everything; warding is equally as important. With the wards of a shaman, they can become just as useful as a templar. Point is most the priest subclasses are equal however achieve the same goal differently.<BR><BR>As far as soloing, templars are not DPSers! If you want a DPS healer, then go play a fury. THat's what furies do (heal a little and DPS a little). The priest's classes are broken down in various avenues. There are priests that mainly ward and heal a little. There arepriests that mainly heal and ward a little. There are priests that mainly DPS and heal a little. <U>Do not ask SOE to make the all the priests the same!!</U><BR><FONT color=#ff0033><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0033>--- Mitakuye Oyasin, Oasis (lvl37templar, lvl38alchemist)</FONT><FONT color=#ff0033><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0033>--- Parn Tessius, Oasis (lvl21gaurdian, lvl38woodworker)</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by Manitos on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:17 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because no subclass has better heals than the other.  What part of we all have the same healing capacity dont ya get ? Really are you saying the Devs of the game are making this up ??  One could argue that Temps are best for Mit Tanks while Furys are best for Aviodance Tanks but thats about as far as that one goes these days and its so close Its nearly unnoticable .  The funny thing is very few groups need a healer at all rt now except for Raids and some named. Really an average group battle last like 15 seconds and rarely need heal # 1. You can basically smoke Cazic Thule with little to no healing what so ever and that Includes the named if ya have a wizzy and a summoner Lev 50 in a 5 or 6 man group  . Pet can tank the whole zone and  I dont need to cast 1 heal .<BR>

[Manit]

<div></div>Heh. or we can take Ben's stance: "Healers are pointless except for some named and raids." Heh..Yeah, I need more data. Something like Caerwyn provided in the "They want numbers? trye these" thread (Warden Forum). I'm still reading it. Much more usefull then this thread has provided except for Tim's and a couple other posts. <font color="#ccff00"> </font><font color="#ccff00">" To put things in HP/sec terms:</font><font color="#ccff00"> </font> <font color="#ccff00"> </font><font color="#ccff00"> Even with only single target specialties, the Templar has an 8 second casting cycle. Assuming all 4 charges are used in 8 seconds, which is not at all unreasonable, the Templar can sustain 107.75 hp/second with single target reactive alone. The Mystic with a similar casting cycle can sustain 100 hp/second. The warden can sustain a measily 79.25. Please note that all of these have the same power cost and the same casting time.</font><font color="#ccff00"> </font> <font color="#ccff00"> </font><font color="#ccff00"> Adding in the group specialties thing get even more ridiculously out of line. The Warden maximum HP/second with single target + group speciality, on a single target, is 145 hp/sec. The Templar has a 20 second casting cycle on the group reactive, and can sustain 211.25 HP/sec on a single target (yes, that's % greater than a warden. Using only specialty + group specialty). The Mystic can sustain 177.3 with single target + group wards only.</font><font color="#ccff00"> </font> <font color="#ccff00"> </font><font color="#ccff00"> That's sustained. Of course, for the Warden sustained and burst are identical. For the Templar, burst is related solely to how fast hits come in- a bruiser mob doing a flury move could easily burn through the entire healing load of a group + single target reactive in seconds, and similarly burn through 2346 points of ward in moments."  --- Caerwyn</font> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[BenEm]

<DIV>Not pointless some of my buffs rock but I sure dont have to heal much with the state of the game as it stands today no doubts about that . In fact after casting GoC adept 3 on MT and Backup MT I often turn healing over to a Pally while they drag me around the zone on follow AFK and they pull 2 or more   3up group Heroic's at a time grant it their blue and white ( Cant do that with some Yellow and all the Orange cons ) but the pally has no probs keeping them up .</DIV>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manitos wrote:<BR> Heh. or we can take Ben's stance: "Healers are pointless except for some named and raids." Heh..Yeah, I need more data. Something like Caerwyn provided in the "They want numbers? trye these" thread (Warden Forum). I'm still reading it. Much more usefull then this thread has provided except for Tim's and a couple other posts.<BR><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>" To put things in HP/sec terms:</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Even with only single target specialties, the Templar has an 8 second casting cycle. Assuming all 4 charges are used in 8 seconds, which is not at all unreasonable, the Templar can sustain 107.75 hp/second with single target reactive alone. The Mystic with a similar casting cycle can sustain 100 hp/second. The warden can sustain a measily 79.25. Please note that all of these have the same power cost and the same casting time.</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Adding in the group specialties thing get even more ridiculously out of line. The Warden maximum HP/second with single target + group speciality, on a single target, is 145 hp/sec. The Templar has a 20 second casting cycle on the group reactive, and can sustain 211.25 HP/sec on a single target (yes, that's % greater than a warden. Using only specialty + group specialty). The Mystic can sustain 177.3 with single target + group wards only.</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>That's sustained. Of course, for the Warden sustained and burst are identical. For the Templar, burst is related solely to how fast hits come in- a bruiser mob doing a flury move could easily burn through the entire healing load of a group + single target reactive in seconds, and similarly burn through 2346 points of ward in moments."  --- Caerwyn</FONT><BR> <P>Message Edited by Manitos on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:35 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You will have to argue that one with the Developers because they completely disagree with you :</P> <DIV><EM>"Anytime you have multiple abilities that serve the same function in different ways, there will be debates about which is better. Perfect equality can only be achieved by making abilities exactly the same; therefore, the notion of equality is constantly competing with the desire for classes to be distinct.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Tanking--like healing, like damage, like control--is not meant to be perfectly equal; it is meant to be comparable while still having pros and cons depending on the situation. That is not apparent by scrutinizing a few abilities in isolation, but rather by looking at the whole picture. Some fighters have more direct hate-generation tools while others have more indirect forms of generating hate. Shadowknights fall into the latter category. If some fighters have to work harder to generate hate, that doesn't necessarily indicate something is broken, though we will keep an eye on the numbers to ensure that rampant imbalances are addressed."</EM></DIV> <P>But hey if you are right plan on it changing very soon as you can see it will be addressed if your healing better than the other healing classes because .......   <FONT color=#cc00ff><EM>though we will keep an eye on the numbers to ensure that rampant imbalances are addressed."  -Moorgard   </EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff><FONT color=#ffffff>I sure hope your wrong <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></FONT></P>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> Well one single target discussion is in warden board, it was referred to templar board as 'proof' that templars have 30% more healing power than furies. Turned out that the difference is less than 5% and it doesn't include t6 ancient spells <STRONG><FONT color=#ff6600>which turn it so that furies are nearly twice as good as templars...<BR></FONT></STRONG><BR>So go to warden board and look for title "What is the Warden's equivalent of the Fury's...". Pages 3 and 4 have the numbers.<BR><BR>and BTW, similar comparisons have been made for class heals. I am sure you can look them up if you are interested. <BR> <P>Message Edited by Timaarit on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What heap did you conjure that piece of bs out off?</P> <P>furies be twice as good as templers!  thats classic</P> <P>templers are three times as good in debuffing, yes thats bs based on nothing might be true tho cause furies'debuffs are crap anyways pls stop this spreading of bs.</P> <P>Furies do 5x the dps compared to templars and heal twice as good lol yeah right, oh wait you didnt even say heal twice as good no furies ARE twice as good:smileyvery-happy:.</P> <P>Unbased claims like these do no good to your cause, it doesnt make it very believable it only damages the valid points some people made.</P> <P>btw the 30% difference in heals was warden against furies not fury against templar if Im correct.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 PM</span>

[Wossname]

Much as I hate giving Kendricke a glimmer of validation by participating in one of his little forum war smoke-screens, it was rightly pointed out that if we do not counter him then we may as well give up. Forgive me if this is a little fragmented, I've just read the entire thread from the beginning. If I had to pick one person on this board to represent Templars to the devs, it would be Caethre. An excellent grasp of our issues and how they fit into the big picture, a saintly patience dealing with the rubbish spouted, and clear posts that aren't mired in spurious guff. Many people on this board post well but Caethre has stood out. I would love the devs to talk to Caethre about our class. It fills me with horror tinged with anger that the devs seem to pay attention to Kendricke for our class. This thread and many others has convincingly shown that Kendricke speaks for the minority of posters here. Perhaps we should use the methods Kendricke has suggested to indicate to devs that he does not speak for us. To the OP: please don't insult us by telling us to upgrade our spells. I have. I have a mixture of Ad1, Ad3 and the odd Master in my repetoire. My healing ability in a group is excellent but that is not what the storm in here is about. It is our poor comparative DPS and utility, especially when soloing that is the issue. I refuse to solo my Templar any more, it is too painful. What I have noticed in levelling up my Wizard is that there is a distinct increase in the number of Furies in comparison to Templars in groups I have been in. I don't have a parse or any mathematical distractions to back up my observation so I'm sure it will be considered invalid. One thing that has been alluded to, but perhaps not stated is that many design assumptions and constructs from release remain in force even though they are now invalid. Coders tend to call this bit-rot. This can be illustrated by examining the healing re-balancing: 1. Initially the design intent is that strong offense is balanced by weak defense, strong healing with weak soloing, weak armour with higher HP, less efficient heals with larger power pools, etc. This is a good design, it has the capacity for balance. Many players, myself included, chose to sacrifice other advantages for better healing. 2. The implementation of the design meant that the strongest healing was too far out of whack and the system headed towards a single preferred class. 3. The symptom was imbalanced healing. This was cured. The current problems arise because the assumptions and constructs that the variations in healing were based on were not re-examined. Templars are *still* paying the high penalties for our now defunct advantage. Furies maintained the advantages that countered their now nullified disadvantage. A priest is more than a portable band-aid we should have other qualities of value to ourselves solo and our group if we have one. If other classes lose penalties in the name of balance then we should lose ours. We need our design assumptions re-examining (as may other classes, I can only speak of the ones I know) and we need balance in all areas not just our primary function. Healing balance is good, most here are happy with that. Let's get the rest right too. Finally, I have a suggestion. Kendricke, take a fortnight off. Don't post. Two threads in this forum have already been Raijinn'd because they degenerated once you got involved. Give the rest of us two weeks and we'll see if we can't improve the 'flavour' in this forum. cheers Wossname <div></div>

[SonicZ]

Yah! Templars are the best!!!!<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I've played a ranger, (Yawn), a Wizzy, (Fun, but just not as useful as I like to be), and now finally a Templar. I've never had so much fun, and outside of this forum, I've never even heard of all these petty differences. I still just can't see them, I'm too busy enjoying the game and being a useful member of the group Im in. So three cheers for Templars, we totally rock! <span>:smileyvery-happy: And to all you mean, unhappy people out there... Happy Holidays!!!! </span> -SonicZap- <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV><EM>"Tanking--like <STRONG>healing</STRONG>, like damage, like control--<STRONG>is not meant to be perfectly equal</STRONG>..." - Moorgard</EM></DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>"Healing...is not meant to be perfectly equal"</EM> - Moorgard</STRONG></FONT><BR>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Take THAT to the devs Kendricke.  </SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You can take it to the developers, can't you?  I'm not privy to private secret knock handshake clubhouse entrances that you don't have access to as well.  File a feedback.  Send a PM.  Fire off an email.</P> <P>I'm not a developer.  I don't speak for them. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Wossname]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote>I'm not a developer.  I don't speak for them. </blockquote> <hr></blockquote> Contrary to your apparent opinion, you don't speak for us Templars either.</span><div></div>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV><EM>"Tanking--like <STRONG>healing</STRONG>, like damage, like control--<STRONG>is not meant to be perfectly equal</STRONG>..." - Moorgard</EM></DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>"Healing...is not meant to be perfectly equal"</EM> - Moorgard</STRONG></FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nice try Kenny ! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I know you want to be the best Kenny but alas your just not the best healer now  ! Face your demons brother! I sence your losing sleep over this /e "chukles"   funny you left out the part that said its impossible without giving them the exact same spells but that their intent is to make it extreamly close and they even went on to say that if they see a considerable diference that they will make adjustments . Guess your having a rough time accepting thier goals aye ? Better get started on your own MMORPG bud <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by BenEmma on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:01 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by BenEmma on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wossname wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not a developer.  I don't speak for them. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Contrary to your apparent opinion, you don't speak for us Templars either.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've stated time and again that I only represent myself and my guild; that I do not represent the Templar community.  However, I do believe that the work I've put into the class and other aspects of the game has been some of the reasons I've earned some of the honors I have to this point from various sources.  You may not like that I've received that recognition.  You may not like me.  You may not agree with my points.  You may not agree with how I present those points.  All of that is entirely your right.  Just understand that I'm not going away just because there exist those who may disagree with me.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><span></span>4096 posts Ken. Honestly, how much out of the days, weeks, months ya stay on the forums?<font color="#ccff00">"You will have to argue that one with the Developers because they completely disagree with you." --- a previous poster</font>Point in fact, they do not disagree. If ya noticed Ben, then ya would notice I do not refer to buffs or any other such thing. I just refer to healing. I understand how some folk may consider a ward or a mitigation buff as a type of heal, but I view something that gives HP as a heal. There's a reason why Inquisitors have more debuffs then Templars. There is a reason why Templars have more buffs then Inquisitors. And so on.<font color="#ccffff">"In groups, however, healing is not everything; warding is equally as important." --- Manitos</font>I'll understand that ya, Ben, didn't read this. However, I was focusing on healing and not the other stuff, if that's possible for ya Ben.<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV><EM>"Tanking--like <STRONG>healing</STRONG>, like damage, like control--<STRONG>is not meant to be perfectly equal</STRONG>..." - Moorgard</EM></DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>"Healing...is not meant to be perfectly equal"</EM> - Moorgard</STRONG></FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nice try Kenny ! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I know you want to be the best Kenny but alas your just not the best healer now  ! Face your demons brother! I sence your losing sleep over this /e "chukles"   funny you left out the part that said its impossible without giving them the exact same spells but that their intent is to make it extreamly close and they even went on to say that if they see a considerable diference that they will make adjustments . Guess your having a rough time accepting thier goals aye ? Better get started on your own MMORPG bud <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>BenEmma,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You do realize that this was discussed at the first Summit, right?  That we were told about the Combat Revamp by Moorgard, Blackguard, Lockeye and others at the first Summit, right?  You do realize that, right?  I realize you feel you've got this nailed down...but I'm telling you right now...nevermind.  You've got it all figured out.  I'd hate to take that away from you.  :smileywink:  Suffice it to say I disagree with your assessment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact is that developers have stated several times in various ways that perfect equality does not exist within Everquest 2, nor is it intended to.  "Rampant imbalaces" is when one class is so far out of whack with others within the same Archetype regarding primary roles that the imbalances need be addressed - at least how I'm reading it.  You certainly are free to feel differently on the subject.  Your perception is certainly your reality. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BenEm]

Get a good nights rest brother take care :smileywink:

[kenji]

<P>Manitos....i hope u have to read posts carefully.</P> <P>the number u got from Caer is 13th October, in Live update 15, the regen part has completely changed.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=203" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=203</A></P> <P>- All Druid, Warden, and Fury specialty regeneration spell lines now regenerate as much health per tick as a Cleric reactive heal. The number of ticks granted by the spell was reduced by 1, but the overall amount healed is much greater:<BR>- All Druid group specialty regeneration spell lines now regenerate as much health per tick as a Cleric group reactive heal. The total amount of ticks granted by the spell was reduced by 1, but the overall amount healed is much greater. The range of the spell effect was increased to 25 meters to match that of other group specialty heals.<BR>-------------------------------------</P> <P>after the changes, the regen value is the same as Templar, but, it heal Instantly , and tick every 2 sec for 5 times, power cost the same. it can heal 5 times in 8 sec which same as our Reactive Heal. and 6 times in 10th sec as Extra</P> <P>u think we are still more superior in healing than warden?</P> <DIV>[edit] , again... sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Misinformation from <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=144417" target=_blank><SPAN>Manitos</SPAN></A>  :</DIV> <DIV>#1) There are priests that mainly DPS and heal a little. <U>Do not ask SOE to make the all the priests the same!!</U></DIV> <DIV>  should read what SoE aiming to do, they said the concept is make all priests heal the same good. before LU13 hit...</DIV> <DIV><BR> #2) Templars are healers and decent debuffers.</DIV> <DIV>  should read other class debuffs, such as Templar debuffs AC and Divine with 2 different spells, Warden debuff Fire and Cold with 1 dot. how decent?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#3) Druids do not even come close to the healing of a templar</DIV> <DIV> listed above. their HPS is greater, not only single, but also Group regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#4) Up to lvl37. The name of the druids best heal, hp range, power cost, recast time, and other important info.<BR> sorry, i am too lazy to search the low lvl spell, but give u a T6 example which is way easier to locate :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wild Chlorostorm (adapt 3), hp range same as our Grp Reactive - 300-367, Power cost 288, Recast time 12 sec, Cast time 3 sec, important info : Increase Health of <U>group members </U>(AE) by 300-367 instantly and every 2 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>aka 6 ticks on every person in the group for a total of 2k x max of 6 person in 10 seconds) give me an example that Templar can beat this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar isnt the Best of all sort of heals, figured it now?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:42 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:42 PM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div><font color="#ccff00">"u think we are still more superior in healing than warden?" --- a previous poster</font> lol. Kind of shows ya how badly Druids and Shamans needed the update so they made them the same as Templars. Templars also have other heals instead of regenerative and the combining the heal into 1 tick isn't that big of deal. Only an issue if the lvl37 tanks plans on fighting a lvl44^^^ named mob. lol. Templars have 3 more major heals (not including 3 others). Total up their HP ranges and power costs then do the division and the same (different variables) to determine the hp/second. How has it changed the equation? This is what i want. I care about numbers. Not text. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 PM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>well..since u only want to read here but not searching, i give u some numbers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wild Regrove Master 2 - 2.0 cast, 6.0 recast,  338-413 value</DIV> <DIV>Heals instantly and every 2 sec (10 sec total)</DIV> <DIV>6 ticks of 338-413 (10 sec) 5 ticks of 338-413 (in 8 sec)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Greater Intercession Master 2 - 2.0 cast, 6.0 recast, 338-413 value</DIV> <DIV>5 ticks of 338-413 (8 sec)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HPS same</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>And...heh..im to drunk to do any number crunching. Heck, ya might have will done it since ya took the time writing the text. heck, anybody can write text. look at me. look at me. And i did read it...didn't say a dang thing about recast and cast timers and mana cost and exact HP. I am a lvl37 templar and as such I wouldn't know anything about a tier6 templar's healing capability. That's why I am inquiring about tier4. You sir need some skill in the art of persuasion. Templar's have 3 stat debuffs by lvl37 instead of 2 and there are 2 others. Inquisitors have many more debuffs than Temps. That's a reason why a deleted my Inq. I enjoy buffs even though i understand debuffs are just as great. I am curious on the exact quote about SOE stating all priests will be the same. A hyperlink would be great. Then, probably just as lazy as I am. Then again just text, a guildie bud has told me that templars get better heals, druids get faster heals, and shaman get bigger heals (but slower).<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:26 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>u should consider reading this post...</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15535" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15535</A></P> <P>i copy some of it </P> <P>---------------</P> <DIV>Dalcharis wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please correct my math if you find anything wrong.<BR>Salve 583.5 * 10 = 5835 hp in 60s<BR>Elixir = 6216 hp in 60s.<BR><BR>Streams... 899* 10 = 8990 in 60s<BR>Bliss.... 1660.5* 5 = 8300 + 1 more cast with just one more tick on it (2.5s were left in the minute... I don't know if the first tick is immediate or waits the 1s.) so add 93.5 + 725... 8300 + 93.5 + 725 = 9118.5hp in 60s<BR><BR><BR>So... Grand total using just the main line direct heals at 60...<BR><BR><B>Fury = 12051 hp in 1 minute<BR>Warden = 18108.5 hp in 1 minute.</B></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>---------------</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is the deal for mighty templars:<BR><BR>Greater Amelioration lvl 57, Adept III<BR>Heals for 757-926 (average 841), 2s cast, 6s recast = 6300 hitpoints per minute<BR><BR>Greater restoration lvl 60, Adept III<BR>Heals for 1399-1709 (average 1113), 3s cast, 11,5s recast = 6400 hp per minute<BR><BR>This equals <B>12700 hp per minute for templar direct heals</B></DIV> <P>the direct heal is just the 2 direct heals, not included the Fury's 52 special heal BITF</P> <P>BITF itself : 148 power cost, 1.5 cast, 6.0 recast,<BR>heals target for 1250-1528 if target is lower than 50% hp<BR>heals target for 625-764 if target is higher than 50% hp<BR>ratio is either 8.44-10.3 or 4.22-5.16<BR>HPS is either 185.2 or 92.6,</P> <DIV>here is our big shot heal</DIV> <DIV>Grand Restoration : 308 power cost, 3.0 cast, 11.5 recast<BR>heals target for 1399-1709<BR>ratio is 4.54-5.54</DIV> <DIV>HPS is 107.2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>difference between them is.. we got 16% more HPS if target is higher than 50%, and  43% <U>less</U> HPS when target is lower than 50%<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:32 PM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>[edit] sigh, how can i miss the LESS word when comparing /sob</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 PM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div>Woohoo. Thanks. Wasn't too hard now was it? Heh. probably was. would've been for me. <span>:smileywink:</span> I love combat changes. These changes chops the weeds out of a game (i.e., gamers who could care less about EQ2) and further involves loyal gamers into more experiences. Kind of makes ya just guess on what the next combat revamp will be. <span>:smileywink: Honestly, if ya choose a subclass to be the best for something, then eventually you'll be playing a different subclass due to combat revamps. lol. I chose Templar for the symbolism.</span><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 PM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div>Fire and Cold debuffs don't seem to helpful to a melee group when compared to using a physical dmg debuff. I can understand how they're useful for mages or what not. I'm curious what subclasses utilize the fire and cold resistancs on mobs. I know priests it is divine resistances. Int + Wis buffs don't help a melee group. Now a Str + Wis helps a melee big time. Honestly, I think Templars are made for melee groups. As big Ben said a while ago, however, each subclass have their role. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>but....lets look at fury...since they got their <U>group</U> int and wis buff... we have our single target toggle buff...we can buff 1 person ... while they can buff whole group........what does we got as advantage?</P> <P>thats why we need our utility up...maybe dps...at least i can say i am not slacking all the time /grin</P>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div>I like to say that Health pool and mitigation compensates for the lack of power pool. Templar's group buffs focus on increase max health (primarily) and all mitigations. lol. Very nice ot have...especially at adept3. Strength makes a huge difference to the tank no matter if the entire group doesn't get it. Plus the physical defense debuff does help all melee. Templars are all about buff'n the melee. Heck, the only debuff not focused to help melee is the Mark of Princes where it says debuffing divine. Only one. If ya don't like how templar's take the pie on healing <span>:smileywink: I also luuuuvvvv bards. </span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>yes the STR make a huge difference to One person...your HP group has no value when u look for dps to help group.</P> <P>the INT and WIS make a huge difference as well...but to Group.</P> <P>lets say 600 mit debuff the mob 10% ac, and your melee group doing 10% more dps...a 1000 dps group Temp offer 100 dps... a fury can do 250 dps with just spell...not counting other utilities like int helps.</P> <P>maybe your str buff can help 10% extra on 1 single person, and 4 caster 1 fury 1 tank will add 10% each of caster dps..</P> <P>balanced. right.</P> <P>fighting 1 min 0 rest and fighting 30 sec and 30 sec rest is huge difference... the off-combat regen is supreme fast... that is the difference between Temp and Druids</P> <P>----------</P> <P>if we are debuffing class, SoE shouldnt remove our STR debuff, shouldnt remove our Magic and Mental debuffs.<BR>if we are buffing class, SoE shouldnt remove our extra mitigation buffs, shouldnt make our stats buffs Toggle only.<BR>if we are DPS class...forget it<BR>if we are tank class....i can understand why plate cant avoid hits anymore...</P> <P>what are we? there is 6 Healers and some have extra skills...what does we got?</P>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div>lol. Last i checked. Casters aren't melee. And Melee DPS do exist beyond Mage. Also, 100 mitigation makes a huge difference on a player (and debuff'n a mob). There's a reason why mages get slaughtered if the mobs likes them; physical debuffs can transform a mob into a mages mitigation i bet..lol <span>:smileywink:</span> <font color="#ccff00">"Why can't we all win?" --- a previous poster from a different thread <font color="#ffffff">Everyone does win....eventually. Heck, why ya think we have combat revamps? I doubt its for balance cause this would mean future revamps wouldn't be need because eventually the game would be zen to all players. lol. I luv EQ2. I will always be with EQ2 no matter how SOE structures my potential because the next revamp will can just do that.</font></font><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:51 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>well..since u only want to read here but not searching, i give u some numbers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wild Regrove Master 2 - 2.0 cast, 6.0 recast,  338-413 value</DIV> <DIV>Heals instantly and every 2 sec (10 sec total)</DIV> <DIV>6 ticks of 338-413 (10 sec) 5 ticks of 338-413 (in 8 sec)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Greater Intercession Master 2 - 2.0 cast, 6.0 recast, 338-413 value</DIV> <DIV>5 ticks of 338-413 (8 sec)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HPS same</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How do you figure that?</P> <P>Greater Intercession does not have "ticks".  It has triggers.  It has five triggers, to be specific.  If the recepient of this spell is hit up to nine times within the first second of combat (which can and does happen frequently), then you fire off the entire spell in one second...effectively increasing the HPS by x10 that which the regeneration can provide.  </P> <P>Reactives do exactly that - they react.  That makes them great for handling spike damage - especially against faster opponents which hit for lower amounts...which is most typical encounters within Norrath.  </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>u should consider reading this post...</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15535" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15535</A></P> <P>i copy some of it</P> <P><snip></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you go further into the thread, you'll find where Dalcharis admitted his original calculations were off. </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>" This is why I asked later in this thread to ignore the previous thread..." - Dalcharis</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's also theoretical as well, and doesn't take the differences between regenerations and reactives into account.  It certainly only counts direct heals and specialty heals, and outright ignores our utility heals (I've actually lead groups through yellow and white heroics without a fighter in my group without casting a single heal at all...just to watch what happens with three Glory of Combats working on three different scouts.  I didn't have to heal the group for the first seven fights.  Even then, I only had to cast a single reactive during fight eight.  I've done this several times since with similar results, using only Glory of Combat and Atoning Fate).</P> <P>Clearly you can't ignore our extra heals when taking these issues into account.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Manitos wrote:<BR> Honestly, I think Templars are made for melee groups. As big Ben said a while ago, however, each subclass have their role.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd certainly agree with that assessment.  I go out of my way to find scouts to fill our DPS group slots.  With just Glory of Combat and the Rebuke/Reproach/Admonishment line alone, you're able to dramatically increase a melee group's effeciency dramatically (I've parsed consistent increases in group DPS of over 25% just by using Reproach/Admonishment when I have 3-4 melee in my groups).  Drop a few Atoning Fates, and Redoubts into the mix, and you're practically a healing god.  I don't even need a fighter in most of our melee groups, and we've run with just four scouts and myself to prove it.  I frequently group with at least 2-3 scouts in every typical grind/quest group and have little to no issue in keeping the group standing and effective.  </P> <P>Using Sign/Stun/Soothe to handle adds (in addition to Swashbucklers locking down adds when needed), and having your scouts bounce hate when needed, you can keep the group standing with little to no effort in most typical cases...but when it does get hairy, that's where I start burning power (even on Reverence) to keep the group alive and kicking.</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>u just pointed out another nerf call, melee dps higher than caster dps</P> <P>risk and reward flawed. better defense class (leather) higher dps than lower defense class (clothes).</P> <P> </P>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>But ya see Ken. Mages are the only DPS gods. I think you and I don't understand that. Blah, scouts were made as a distraction (like math) anyways. lol <span>:smileywink: </span><font color="#ccff00">"u just pointed out another nerf call, melee dps higher than caster dps" --- a previous poster</font> Aaahh man. whenever the luv is perceived to be taken away, man, the recipients start hailing bugs, flaws. Combat Revamp. lol <span>:smileywink:</span> Yes, lets do the combat revamp so that templars do more DPS then all priests just like furies think they do much better at healing. lol But yes yes. Lets let everyone have a little zen sometime. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>Fury's Group AC buffs include a 60ish regen imbue.</P> <P>a Group Regen will work much better if u play bounce hate. 2200 heal in 10 sec for whole group. </P> <P>if u dont have to heal a group for 7 fights, so does a fury isnt it? so your superior heal spells arent NEEDED right? what advantage u got when u dont have to heal vs druids?</P>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><font color="#ccff00">"if u dont have to heal a group for 7 fights, so does a fury isnt it? so your superior heal spells arent NEEDED right? what advantage u got when u dont have to heal vs druids?" --- a previous poster</font> Umm...actually, a fury could do this with just scouts? Furies hardly support melee fighting like Templars do. Seriously, every single debuf and buff helps melee, except for 1/2 of a debuff. Heh. Templars much useful even without their heals due to the immense support for melee. I hope Furies can say the same for casters. I thought the term AC died a long time ago when it was broken down to mitigation and avoidance.<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote: <P>if u dont have to heal a group for 7 fights, so does a fury isnt it? so your superior heal spells arent NEEDED right? what advantage u got when u dont have to heal vs druids?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I didn't say I wasn't healing the group.  I said I wasn't casting heals.  Glory of Combat fires off a LOT in a group of melees...at 327 health to everyone in the group each time (and that's only Adept I).  I was counting it firing in every fight anywhere from 3 to 7 times <EM>per fight</EM>.  Average fight was lasting around 25 seconds.  Assuming an average of 5 triggers per fight, I figure I was healing (without casting) around 65 health <EM>per person</EM> <EM>per second ...</EM>or around 392 HPS in those 6 person groups (3,920 health every ten seconds on average)<EM>.</EM>  That's without actually casting a single spell.  I may as well have been on autofollow for 90% of the fights.  So long as they remained within range of me, Glory of Combat handled all basic mundane healing for the groups.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, it was those other fights that required my attention.  The ones where things didn't go just right...when Glory of Combat hit a dry streak...or when adds spawned at the wrong time...or a named was pulled.  Then I was casting spells as soon as I could, queuing them up as fast as I was able to.  Rarely does anyone drop in those situations, but if they did, I could at least revive them for full health without any sickness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div><blockquote><hr> Timaarit wrote: <div></div>Well one single target discussion is in warden board, it was referred to templar board as 'proof' that templars have 30% more healing power than furies. Turned out that the difference is less than 5% and it doesn't include t6 ancient spells <strong><font color="#ff6600">which turn it so that furies are nearly twice as good as templars...</font></strong> <hr> </blockquote> <p>What heap did you conjure that piece of bs out off? </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">I recommend you learn to read. It was about those single target direct heals. At lvl 58, furies have twice the capability of templars with those particular heals. They more than cover the difference in our specialty heals (reactives vs. HoT's). But since you only read sentence at a time, you failed to see the context. </font></p> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> kenjiso wrote: <div></div> <div>well..since u only want to read here but not searching, i give u some numbers</div> <div> </div> <div>Wild Regrove Master 2 - 2.0 cast, 6.0 recast,  338-413 value</div> <div>Heals instantly and every 2 sec (10 sec total)</div> <div>6 ticks of 338-413 (10 sec) 5 ticks of 338-413 (in 8 sec)</div> <div> </div> <div>Greater Intercession Master 2 - 2.0 cast, 6.0 recast, 338-413 value</div> <div>5 ticks of 338-413 (8 sec)</div> <div> </div> <div>HPS same</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>How do you figure that?</p> <p>Greater Intercession does not have "ticks".  It has triggers.  It has five triggers, to be specific.  If the recepient of this spell is hit up to nine times within the first second of combat (which can and does happen frequently), then you fire off the entire spell in one second...effectively increasing the HPS by x10 that which the regeneration can provide.  </p> <p>Reactives do exactly that - they react.  That makes them great for handling spike damage - especially against faster opponents which hit for lower amounts...which is most typical encounters within Norrath.  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Reading comprehension Ken <span>:smileywink:</span> The time presented is cast + recast for both. True, HoT ticks for 10s, so it is actually 20% slower when reactives are down in 8 seconds. But since it usually takes a bit more than that for mt to get hit 5 times, thoes are even there. Point is that even when our reactives are cosumed before they go down, they can still heal less than a HoT would have healed. After all, HoT heals in 10s and our reactives are up for 15 seconds. Kind of takes away the point from your 'we are best' and 'reactives are absolutely the best' ranting.</span><div></div>

[Xerxess]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:40 AM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div>lol..nevemrind <div></div><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 PM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>i want to know which case happen more frequently in a raid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) boss landing hitting once every 0.2 sec (1 sec proc all 5 triggers)</DIV> <DIV>2) boss landing hitting once every 2 sec (10 sec proc all 5 triggers)</DIV> <DIV>3) boss landing hitting once every 3 sec (15 sec proc all 5 triggers)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if 1 is happening more, then Reactive is More useful, 2 then both RH and Regen = same, 3 then Regen win.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>how often u slow the encounter? how often u kill adds first? with these all will slow down reactives proc rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if case 1, being hit every 0.2 sec, 400 dmg per swing results 120000 healing per min. with just pure melee, no Styles, no AoE, no Riposte. u sure that really happens frequently?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>Well also our numbers are starting to dwindle on servers.  Some templars are quitting to start druid alts and lvl them up or they are just trying out a new class. You say you have 80-90 templars on your server at the time your playing...did you count how many druids and shamans were playing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With out current state more new priest end up going druid or shaman over cleric...we still get the few that do but not many. I even been in groups where people said they were going to start a healer alt and asked which class they should be...You know what I hear come out everyone in the group??..."Start a Fury"..."Start a shaman"...to me its pretty sad when other classes know we are not the best at what we use to be. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Manit]

Equations comes off a bit skewed. 120k dmg??? Our weapons, the faster the swing rate the lower the dmg. Since the swing rate is so fast, why ya think the 400 dmg? <div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><font color="#ccff00">"True, HoT ticks for 10s" --- a previous poster</font> HoTs are reactives. Before or right when a mob hits, the targeted player gets healed. In groups, the HoTs are used up in seconds. </span><span>There is zero sign of any thing 10s for my lvl37 templar. Does this change for tier6 templars? I do much grouping and my HoTs are used in 3 or 4 seconds whenever fighting a group of 3 at least. This is why I hate the 5 seconds recast timer on my single target HoT. </span><span>Where are you coming from with the 10s?</span> <span> Moreover, the group HoT and single target HoT stack. So at lvl38 (just lvled =D ), i am healing 281 for my best ticks (269avg per tick). As I said before, in grouped mobs, these are used in seconds. This is pretty dang good for a tier4 healer. Keeps a sustained HP flow so my solo target heals can keep the tank in the green. I just played with a shaman a hour ago. He was healing a lvl35 berz fighting the squirrels in RV (~lvl38^^^); the tanks HP was so chaotic.</span><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:<span><font color="#ccff00">"True, HoT ticks for 10s" --- a previous poster</font> HoTs are reactives. Before or right when a mob hits, the targeted player gets healed. In groups, the HoTs are used up in seconds. </span><span>There is zero sign of any thing 10s for my lvl37 templar. Does this change for tier6 templars? I do much grouping and my HoTs are used in 3 or 4 seconds whenever fighting a group of 3 at least. This is why I hate the 5 seconds recast timer on my single target HoT. </span><span>Where are you coming from with the 10s?</span><span> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>HoT's are not reactives. They are Heal over Time. They heal 1 tick when cast and then once per 2s. They have 5 ticks with 2s cast time and 8s duration. Thus when a druid clicks cast, 2s after that the HoT heals for the first time and the final time 10s after that (<-clicking cast). Reactives tick only if the target is hit. Thus if the target is hit for 600 points of damage, a reactive that heals for 300, will heal that 300 as the damage occurs. A HoT will heal 300 0 to 2 seconds after the hit and another 300 2 seconds after that even if the target is not hit again. Single target HoT will heal for 5 tics in 10 seconds in any case. Single target reactive has potential to heal for 5 times at 8 second (2s cast time, 6s recast) interval, but if the target is not hit, the reactive is wasted. With group heals clerics have more potential with a single target as the group reactive will heal 9 tics for each 20 seconds (5s cast, 15s recast) while fury group HoT will heal 5 times for each 15 seconds (3s cast, 12s recast). So per minute, cleric will get 27 tics while fury gets 20, though this reactive is only up and healing for 45 seconds for each minute, while HoT will heal all damage taken during that minute). But situation changes dramatically if the target is not hit for 9 times per 15 seconds (the duration reactive is up, HoT will heal damage taken while it is being cast, reactive does not). Also if the group takes AA damage with this reactive, it will lose as many tics as group members were hit. HoT has no such weakness, it will heal in any case up to its full duration. Note that single target direct heals are balanced up to lvl 51. This means that before lvl 51, templar has more potential than a fury when healing single target. After that, fury gets 2 more single target direct heals with separate timers thus giving furies more basic healing capability than templars have in ideal conditions.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class="date_text">12-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:32 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><span><font color="#ccff00">"HoT's are not reactives. They are Heal over Time. They heal 1 tick when cast and then once per 2s. They have 5 ticks with 2s cast time and 8s duration. Thus when a druid clicks cast, 2s after that the HoT heals for the first time and the final time 10s after that. Reactives tick only if the target is hit." --- a previous poster</font> No, THat's not true!! Jeez, just 10 minutes ago i tested to make sure. Right when I received dmg, I got healed. And there were pauses longer than 2s when i did not get healed. I mean. The only way i can prove this is by making a video. lol good luck with me figure'n how to make a video. lol Heck, my group HoT decent even have a chance to use all 9 ticks cause that mob doesn't have a chace to hurt me that much when soloing. Where areyou getting your info?! Honestly, clerics HoTs aren't really HoTs...i haven't even understand where it comes from. Man, i swear, if you say I'm wrong then i know everything ya are saying is a lie because, seriously, i just tested this. I tested this! there were more than 2s pauses when the HoT didn't heal. FYI, i think that spell might be called Wild Bloodflow (master2) instead of Wild Grove. My lvl60 fury guildie says she has never heard of a Wild Grove. </span><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:<span><font color="#ccff00">"HoT's are not reactives. They are Heal over Time. They heal 1 tick when cast and then once per 2s. They have 5 ticks with 2s cast time and 8s duration. Thus when a druid clicks cast, 2s after that the HoT heals for the first time and the final time 10s after that. Reactives tick only if the target is hit." --- a previous poster</font> No, THat's not true!! Jeez, just 10 minutes ago i tested to make sure. Right when I received dmg, I got healed. And there were pauses longer than 2s when i did not get healed. I mean. The only way i can prove this is by making a video. lol good luck with me figure'n how to make a video. lol </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Aren't you a templar? We (templars) dont have HoT's, we have reactives.</span><div></div>

[Manit]

lol. My bad, i thought ya were saying templars have some sort of HoT. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:lol. My bad, i thought ya were saying templars have some sort of HoT. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Lol ok, now that you know, read the difference again <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. It is actually quite profound when you think about it carefully. Druid HoT's will heal damage taken while they are being cast, clerical reactives will not unless the hit taken is smaller that the amount healed by the reactive.</span><div></div>

[Manit]

<span>i was wondering what this RH initial meant. </span><font color="#ccff00">"</font><span><font color="#ccff00">clerical reactives will not unless the hit taken is smaller that the amount healed by the reactive." --- a previous poster</font> You saying that a RH tick doesn't heal when the mob gives a hit higher the a single RH tick? </span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:<span>i was wondering what this RH initial meant. </span><font color="#ccff00">"</font><span><font color="#ccff00">clerical reactives will not unless the hit taken is smaller that the amount healed by the reactive." --- a previous poster</font> You saying that a RH tick doesn't heal when the mob gives a hit higher the a single RH tick? </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>That is not what I wrote. I wrote that reactives will not heal damage taken during cast unless the damage taken when reactive is up is smaller than the damage healed by that reactive. This means that if someone gets hit for 500pts when reactive is being cast, he will not get healed with a reactive that heals for 300pts if he is hit for 500pts again. But if he is hit for 100pts, he will be healed for 200pts extra. HoT will heal that damage also unless hits are coming so fast and hard that it can't keep up with the damage. But in this case, the reactive is not that much better (that is what I wrote about earlier).</span><div></div>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div>Aaahhh....i understand.   I noticed that, but didn't make much of a difference for me because the Mark of Princes along with a lower lvl heal (which has more hp/second) made up for the remainder with a little more HP. Now, for the named mobs that were the same lvl as the tanks, then I had to really push with my Amelioration and a lower lvl arch healing (with an occasional Restoration arch heal). Been work'n out great for me. Been having none stop pulls even when im the only healer. Seriously, the only time when I cannot heal the tank is when the named mobs are 1 lvl above the tank (i.e., tank lvl37, named lvl38^^^). These tier6 changes sure do change alot.<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 AM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>err...seriously, unless the mob is OJ / Red to tank.. i can solo heals in most case...unless the mob big AoE again and again non stop....maybe your strat have problem, or your tank isnt with good gear...(i mean rare crafted as good, not fabled)</DIV>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>there's a big difference between a lvl37 MT tank'n a lvl40^^^ mob and a lvl38^^^ named. With a tank, I can heal the tank when the mob is a orange ^^^ (whatever lvl that is, i go by cons not lvls...failed ot memorize the con differences in lvls) with no worries. I also make it a point to no over heal because then you are wasting power. That's why when my amelioration can slowly bump the tank to the green then i stick with a lower lvl arch healing and possibly a combat healing. Also, much of it depends on the group dynamics and MT mitigation. If the MT mitigation is too low, then the MT health pool must compensate unfortunately. If I'm lucky, i'll get a tank with legendary armor and a fabled shield. Then that's much fun there, but this is not common.<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class="date_text">12-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:44 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class="date_text">12-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:46 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 AM</span>

[Xerxess]

lol If that were true and HoTs acted like reactives also...holy crap...Heal over time and trigger a Reactive heal...I would quit re-roll a druid right away =P

[kenji]

<DIV>Manitos u finally pointed what i want to say... u got issue healing oj+ con fights...but no worries with yellow or lower.... So Does Every Priest!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yay... we are greater healer? /grin</DIV>

[Manit]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>oh yea bud, im luv'n lots of fun. i hate it when a secondary healer is breathe'n my air. hehehe. honestly, seems like im always the secondary healer when another healer joins. it's like they hate be'n a secondary healer or something. so i nuke and debuff (including hexes which i can never do with orange cons because im busy healing and debuffing). i'd rather have the spot for a DPS to make the group dynamic. Or a Bard. Gotta give the love to ye 'ol bards.<p>Message Edited by Manitos on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 AM</span>

[kenji]

<P>but Manitos Templar's nuke is trash...do u feel that u are wasting the power after u know that a fury nuke once = templar 4-5 nukes?</P> <P>thats why me and some of the templars asking for dps increase. or utilities increase.</P> <P>so..u think u are good for melee dps group.. lets have a look on 1 of the fury spell</P> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>49 Fae Flames - (Master 1) </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>On each successful melee attack for 3 consectutive attacks Fae Flames procs 147 heat damage. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what do u think? a group of 5 melees and fury's melee can proc 18 times 147 dmg with 1 cast, how much is that? can u offer that to melee group? thats 2646 dmg in 1 cast. master 1...adept 3 cut off 30% dmg still 1852 dmg. u sure templar's utilities really better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>u still think Templar is a Heal+Utilities better class? or just a Heal class that every priest can do?</DIV> <DIV>do u feel that we need Fix now? or still need more data-support?</DIV> <P> </P>

[kenji]

<P>maybe we compare too much with 2 Druids...lets look at Inquisitor?</P> <P>RH, GRH all the same.</P> <P>here is the kicker : Convert Adept3 : Power cost 56, heal target for 199 when cast inquisitor cast a Beneficial spell (aka heal, cure, buffs). (self buff, duration  - until cancel)</P> <P>here is the fun, when this buff up, cast a RH will have a 199 heal instantly.</P> <P>casting a fast heal will have another 199 heal instantly. even a cure will have additional 199 heal!</P> <P>----------</P> <P>still believe that we are a better healer class? 2 offensive utilities heal better than offensive utilities healer. what's the point? Balance? love?</P> <p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 AM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>Kend..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no matter how good GoC is in a melee group... u cant beat Group Regen. Warden healing 146 per sec.</DIV> <DIV>they also have a 8% proc that can heal either 100 / 200 if target is <>50% like BITF</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>bouncing dmg best handler must be warden, healing 12000 dmg every 15 sec.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span>With the way procs are handler, regardless of the target, GoC will proc once per minute on average (5% chance of proc per 3s). That means some 300pts of extra healing per minute. Involuntary will proc twice which means about the same at 51+. Mark line will proc 3 times (since it will not proc if it is already ticking) and equals about 450pts. This means that our utility heals now have a number when fighting a single target, 1050 points per minute for mt and 750 with the rest of the group. We are still far behind furies in healing even if this is taken into account (shown in warden board for 2 lines single target direct heals and in templar boards for class heals). With group mobs we have some advantage with Fate line. It will heal for 600pts when target dies. When fighting against a mob of 3, I can at best get 2 cast of this if I dont cast all my other utility. So that 600 does not add as whole. With a single target, casting this is pretty useless unless you are chainpulling. So Kend, here are the hard facts about our healing power. A thing you have not been willing to present. Maybe because you already knew the result. Up to lvl 51 clerics have about 10% more raw healing power than other classes (exept wardens). After that, also furies go past us (and wardens) with the two direct heals they get. </span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>but Manitos Templar's nuke is trash...do u feel that u are wasting the power after u know that a fury nuke once = templar 4-5 nukes?</P> <P>thats why me and some of the templars asking for dps increase. or utilities increase.</P> <P>so..u think u are good for melee dps group.. lets have a look on 1 of the fury spell</P> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>49 Fae Flames - (Master 1) </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>On each successful melee attack for 3 consectutive attacks Fae Flames procs 147 heat damage. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what do u think? a group of 5 melees and fury's melee can proc 18 times 147 dmg with 1 cast, how much is that? can u offer that to melee group? thats 2646 dmg in 1 cast. master 1...adept 3 cut off 30% dmg still 1852 dmg. u sure templar's utilities really better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>u still think Templar is a Heal+Utilities better class? or just a Heal class that every priest can do?</DIV> <DIV>do u feel that we need Fix now? or still need more data-support?</DIV> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You do know that fae flames is one of our 3 dmg orientated buffs for a group right? and that for this spell to be useful you have to be in a full group of melee?</DIV> <DIV>Furies have 1 single target dps/haste at 10% proc rate 1 single target dmg shield and fae flames (we also have an int buff which takes 1 conc but thats balanced out by other classes giving more wis/str/hp/etc.).</DIV> <DIV>Also Tim you said after lvl 51 furies get 2 direct heals on seperate timers?</DIV> <DIV>Well at lvl 52 we get bitf a heal which heals for around 1.3 k-1.5 when the target is below 50% health at adept 3 and doesnt get used when the target is above 50% as the recast on our heals is very fast as we heal for less but faster if I cast small heal+direct heal+regen my small heal is already back up so no use for hitting bitf when the tank is above 50%.</DIV> <DIV>Hibernation is a spell we get at lvl 58(!) and isnt a direct heal you have to wait 10 seconds for it to fire off, you cast it wait 10 seconds and then it heals a group after 10 seconds it heals health direct but waiting 10 seconds isnt what I'd call "direct" and groupheals arent used that often in groups, yes they get used but dont make it seem like we get another big direct heal on a seperate timer rdy to fire off every 5 secs.</DIV> <DIV>Thank you for your time.</DIV>

[kenji]

<P>we were talking about Templar shine in a full melee group, i just point that fury spell also shine in full melee group.</P> <P>anyways, Templar has 2 spell that heal whole group (Grp Reactive and Group Heal and well..a proc) while Fury has 3.</P> <DIV>Primal Spirit -- A group augmentation that increases the intelligence and wisdom of the fury's group.</DIV> <P>Spirit of the Hunt -- A group augmentation that increases the elemental resistance and health pool of the fury's group. The elemental resistance protects more against heat than cold<BR><BR>Primal Fury -- An augmentation that increases strength and agility and grants the chance for increased attack speed and combat attack damage in combat of an ally. This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally<BR><BR>Thornskin  -- An augmentation placed on the fury's ally, that deals instant piercing damage to any attacker of that ally and all enemies nearby the attacker. This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally</P> <P></P>Incomparable Predator -- The fury takes on the form of a lion, greatly increasing stamina and agility. While in this form, the fury also gains the ability to see stealthed creatures <P></P>Ferine Mask -- A group augmentation that increases the physical damage resistance and in-combat health regeneration of the fury's group. <P></P>Ferine Vim -- An augmentation that increases the intelligence and power pool of an ally. <P>Spirit of the Bat -- in combat power regen</P> <P>i take a look, 8 buffs...</P> <P>Templar -<BR>Valor = Ferine Mask<BR>Symbol of Naltron = Spirit of the Hunt <BR>Holy Redoubt = Ferine Vim<BR>Divine Praetortae = Primal Fury<BR>Glory of Combat = Nil<BR>Nil = Spirit of the Bat<BR>Nil = Incomparable Praedator<BR>Nil = Thronskin<BR></P> <P>any buffs i missed?<BR>Similar AC buff, Similar HP/Resist buff, Similar HP/Power buff, Similar 2 stats add single buff but no proc, got an extra heal proc, lack of power regen, no animal buff, no dmg shield. what fury lacking?<BR>Fury 1 more fast direct heal, 1 more extra heal proc that 100% proc after 10 sec<BR></P> <P><BR><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>Kend..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no matter how good GoC is in a melee group... u cant beat Group Regen. Warden healing 146 per sec.</DIV> <DIV>they also have a 8% proc that can heal either 100 / 200 if target is <>50% like BITF</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>bouncing dmg best handler must be warden, healing 12000 dmg every 15 sec.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Glory of Combat isn't competing with Group Regeneration.  Wardens and Furies don't have anything at all to compare with Group Regeneration.  It's an extra heal that no other priest has.  It's an apple to everyone else's orange.  Glory of Combat requires NO power....NO casting...and it's up ALL the time.  It's part of a Templar's extra "healing utility".</P> <P>So, while I've got Glory of Combat up, I can also cast reactives.  If I cast my group reactive prior to a pull and a Warden casts a group regeneration, not ONLY do I have the ability to heal the main tank for over twice as much from just that spell...but I ALSO have Glory of Combat in effect. </P> <P>Too many people want to compare spell to spell using (A) the wrong spells to compare or (B) ignoring other spells which will be in effect.  You can't ignore Templar extra healing utility when having these conversations.  These spell lines do not exist in a vaccuum.  We have to look at the entire forest, and not merely the trees we feel make our points sound better.  That leads to hyperbole and exaggeration in order to build cases.</P> <P>Even then, we have to take into account the difference in spells.  Group regeneration does not heal 12,000 health except in certain, specific circumstances.  During AE situations, then I'd agree that I'd love to have a group-wide heal on par with a Warden's regeneration...but during most typical challenging groups, I'm simply not seeing that.  Name a non-Epic situation where - a one group target - where AE is a major concern?  Most AE's I come into contact with in those situations are either physical, arcane (both of which I can group cure), or poison based DoT's.  Instead of healing everyone, I simply cure the AE whenever needed.  If it's a mutli target encounter (which is most of the encounters I find myself in), then I'll fire off an Atoning Fate as well (which has one of the absolutely best power to healing ratios of any healing spell).</P> <P>However, most of the typical non-raid situations I find myself in, involve either a single target hitting for 500 or less damage, but swinging quickly...or involve multi-target encounters.  In general, I'd say that most of the situations I tend to find myself in involve a single group member taking all or at least attempting to take all of the damage - the "main tank" group.  Whether it's an avoidance fighter or mitigation fighter, I'm still concentrating on just one tank...and my own personal experience is that reactives (both single target and individual) work much better than regenerations in those situations.  Even then, I'm not just relying only on regenerations or even direct heals like some one trick healing pony.  I've got Glory of Combat up...and if I expect the fight to last more than 10-25 seconds, I've also got Admonishment, Involuntary Healer, Mark of Kings, and Atoning Fate up (in that order typically).  If I'm expecting a caster, I bring Shielding Faith up prior to the pull.  If we're looking at an odd situation with more than one big target hitting for lots of damage, I'll use Sign/Stun right after pull as well to cut the encounter's DPS in half (or whatever amount I'm cutting it).</P> <P>You want to concentrate on this spell or that spell, be my guest.  I'm more than the sum of my parts, however.  I'm more than a one trick pony.  There's more than one tree in the forest.</P> <P> </P>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>we were talking about Templar shine in a full melee group, i just point that fury spell also shine in full melee group.</P> <P>anyways, Templar has 2 spell that heal whole group (Grp Reactive and Group Heal and well..a proc) while Fury has 3.</P> <DIV>Primal Spirit -- A group augmentation that increases the intelligence and wisdom of the fury's group.</DIV> <P>Spirit of the Hunt -- A group augmentation that increases the elemental resistance and health pool of the fury's group. The elemental resistance protects more against heat than cold<BR><BR>Primal Fury -- An augmentation that increases strength and agility and grants the chance for increased attack speed and combat attack damage in combat of an ally. This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally<BR><BR>Thornskin  -- An augmentation placed on the fury's ally, that deals instant piercing damage to any attacker of that ally and all enemies nearby the attacker. This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally</P> <P></P>Incomparable Predator -- The fury takes on the form of a lion, greatly increasing stamina and agility. While in this form, the fury also gains the ability to see stealthed creatures <P></P>Ferine Mask -- A group augmentation that increases the physical damage resistance and in-combat health regeneration of the fury's group. <P></P>Ferine Vim -- An augmentation that increases the intelligence and power pool of an ally. <P>Spirit of the Bat -- in combat power regen</P> <P>i take a look, 8 buffs...</P> <P>Templar -<BR>Valor = Ferine Mask<BR>Symbol of Naltron = Spirit of the Hunt <BR>Holy Redoubt = Ferine Vim<BR>Divine Praetortae = Primal Fury<BR>Glory of Combat = Nil<BR>Nil = Spirit of the Bat<BR>Nil = Incomparable Praedator<BR>Nil = Thronskin<BR></P> <P>any buffs i missed?<BR>Similar AC buff, Similar HP/Resist buff, Similar HP/Power buff, Similar 2 stats add single buff but no proc, got an extra heal proc, lack of power regen, no animal buff, no dmg shield. what fury lacking?<BR>Fury 1 more fast direct heal, 1 more extra heal proc that 100% proc after 10 sec<BR></P> <P><BR><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:10 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by kenjiso on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:14 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>spell decriptions w/o numbers doesnt tell anything, every class ahs the same amount of spells if we have thornskin you have something else instead of "nil" </DIV> <DIV>would be nice to see the numbers on those spells you think are the templar "similar-ish" spells I can post my numbers if you want to make a good comparison.</DIV> <DIV>But I agree with kendricke that you cant view spells out of the context theyre in but comparing could start something more than just saying "he got that! we dont get that! were [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed!"</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 AM</span>

[Barodur_]

<P>Once again I think the thread here has gotten off track. I think the main issue here for most Templars is that we have no solo capability. I think we heal fine. I don't understand how the thread keeps going back to comparing Templar's heals vs. Furies vs. Wardens vs. Mystics vs. Inquisitors. I would agree that in some cases it's better to have a Templar healing a certain type tank than a Fury and vice versa. I think the big picture, or "the entire forest" as someone likes to put it on here, is that we are not equal to the other priests when it comes to dmg output. Yes you can sit and argue all day that "real Templars don't nuke during hard fights, etc., etc." I for one agree with that. I don't cast a single nuke usually in a hard fight as I'm focused on keeping the tank up. My problem is that my wife's Fury can solo circles around my Templar. No it's not a competition thing with my spouse....I want my character to be just as balanced as hers. I agree with another poster here that Caethre should be our OFFICIAL spokesperson for the Templar class. She seems to have a better grip of the issues than some of the more....outspoken advocates here. I would like to point out that she has a very well structured thread going that outlines issues that need to be looked at for our class. If you want to do some good, go post constructively on that if you haven't already. Every issue I can think of is already outlined by her however. Either way, it would do more good than to sit here and banter back and forth to no avail.</P> <P>To which I have to say....Kendricke, you seem like a very intelligent and knowledgeable person that loves the Templar class. In that sense I respect you. However, I agree with many others that every time I see you post on a thread I groan and get the urge to punch my monitor. You seem to provoke others and bring the "debate" to another level. Rather than post your view, you seem to attack people personally or imply that they are stupid. Most don't take kindly to this. You DON'T speak for the majority of Templars, and personally....you're enough to make this priest cuss. I find it amusing that on these various threads of Templar issues that it's usually one or two people that disagree with the vast majority in that we are lacking in some areas. I can name one person in each of those threads that usually end up in flames. Take a guess as to who that is. Each to his own reality and all that blah, blah....but have you ever heard the expression Ken that how can a billion Chinese be wrong? Well, we're not a "billion" and most of us aren't Chinese, but we ARE the majority. Take a break please.</P>

[Manit]

**POST REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[Barodur_]

**POST REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[Manit]

**POST REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[Barodur_]

**POST REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[Manit]

**POST REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Manitos wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Man, if folks wanna go down this road, then I will continue to get this thread locked. <hr></blockquote>So you want to get people shut down for pointing out that certain people invite flames? Priceless. Sure, there is good stuff to be found in all of the noise, but what purpose do you serve in trying to get that shut down? Your own precious info, that you were able to glean, will be lost to obscurity and you have just screwed over anyone else who comes looking for what you were seeking about reactives and heals over time.  Way to go. Go ahead, whine to Raijin.  Even Kendricke doesn't stifle a free exchange of ideas even if he sees no value in what is being posted. To my knowledge, the most he does to people is try to discredit them (sometimes, he will accuse people of lying, being stupid, what have you, but) I have yet to see him threaten people with censorship. You should be ashamed.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>To my knowledge, the most he does to people is try to discredit them (sometimes, he will accuse people of lying, being stupid, what have you, but) I have yet to see him threaten people with censorship. You should be ashamed.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd be curious to find a single instance of me calling anyone a "liar" or as "stupid".  I'd be the first person to apologize if you can find any instance of me attacking any individual.  I'll point out inconsistencies, inaccuracies, or errors that I see in points or arguments, but as a rule, I don't attack individuals.  You may feel that I condescend, that I'm arrogant, that I'm zealous...but that's a far cry from attacking someone directly, which I take great pains to avoid.</P> <P> </P>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<blockquote> </blockquote> <p>I'd be curious to find a single instance of me calling anyone a "liar" or as "stupid".  I'd be the first person to apologize if you can find any instance of me attacking any individual.  I'll point out inconsistencies, inaccuracies, or errors that I see in points or arguments, but as a rule, I don't attack individuals.  You may feel that I condescend, that I'm arrogant, that I'm zealous...but that's a far cry from attacking someone directly, which I take great pains to avoid.</p> <hr></blockquote>Well, I admit this one was unfair because you were more than likely baited.  I don't even know what you said, but Raijin seemed to think you were harsh. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=13355#M13355 Raijin has smacked many of us for not playing well.  I am sorry for making it seem like you are this horrible person on this forum. The fact that I think you are 51% helpful and a 49% pain in the butt is immaterial. My point was that even though might you inspire a lot of flamewars, you don't really take steps to get people truly shut down. You let us hang ourselves. I shouldn't have used you as an example with the zeal that I did and I am sorry about that. I am sorry because I really didn't want to pick on you and that is how it came out, but even more sorry because I really hate censorship and that is what I was trying to write about which totally got lost. I know that we all gretz a lot. I do agree that it would make the developer's job easier to weed through senseless rants if we didn't post them. Even buried deep in my ramblings is a point somewhere. I don't always do the right thing. I haven't been yelled at since Raijin came, but I am sure it is coming because I admit that I am socially inept. I will make it to step 2 of 12 someday. (What is step 2?) Um anyway... I just wanted to step foward to say that I support freedom of expression (for better or for worse.) I don't agree with the original poster for basically telling us to shut up, and I really don't agree with the guy that I replied to. I think that everyone should be allowed to speak freely as long as they aren't breaking any forum rules. Even people that I don't agree with like the guy I replied to and sometimes Kendricke (there is that 51% you know) should be free to post whatever they want (and deal with the results.) Sure, we post things that are unpopular at times. Most of us are prepared to deal with the fallout that results from our actions. I know that this may be considered the viper's nest but I like to believe that I know where most of the people here stand.  If we are making fools of ourselves, so be it. Atleast, I can be straightforward in my folly. I think that is it.</span><div></div>

[Unmask]

<span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div>Kend..</div> <div> </div> <div>no matter how good GoC is in a melee group... u cant beat Group Regen. Warden healing 146 per sec.</div> <div>they also have a 8% proc that can heal either 100 / 200 if target is <>50% like BITF</div> <div> </div> <div>bouncing dmg best handler must be warden, healing 12000 dmg every 15 sec.</div> <hr></blockquote>Except with a big AE that hits everyone, a group HoT is not worthwhile to cast since the vast majority of that healing power is wasted.  The ticks hit everyone in the group the same amount whether or not they need it.  It does not scale to groupsize.  There's no question that in some circumstances a group HoT is better than a group reactive, but since group reactives can fire all their healing on 1 target they are far more powerful for healing spike damage on 1 target, and that's by far the most common situation healers will find themselves in.  Fast hits are exceedingly common on raids and instances, especially those with lots of adds, and without this ability of the group reactive many raids would be nearly impossible.  So while healing in theory is all well and good to discuss, healing in practice is another animal.  </span><span>If the MT is hit 4 times in 1 second then my warden's stacked HoTs (from all my spells) does maybe 500-600 per second while the templar's group and single target reactives will heal for roughly 2.8k in that second. </span><span> The problem with HoTs that some of you don't seem to appreciate is that HoTs tick away without regard to the amount and speed of incoming damage.  One of the suggestions I saw in the threads regarding improving the templar is to have unused reactive ticks heal the target when the spell expires like a ward (how would that work for group reactives?).  But what about the HoTs that so often waste their ticks? Our heal proc is a T5 spell that is not upgraded in T6.  It can be kept up on only 1 person at a time.  It used to proc 2% of the time for about half the amount until a recent change (I'm not complaining).  If it starts to proc at > 50% health and the target goes below 50% the provc amt doesn't change (the converse is true as well but I'd prefer each proc to be based on current health). I can't speak for the fury, but wardens don't have much combat utility and I'd argue we have less to offer than a templar.  SoW and evac are usually mentioned and while they're certainly nice they're useless in combat.  Roots are nice but don't work vs epics.  Our lone debuff (AGI) is linked to the root so it too will not work against epics (leaving us with none).  The damage shield and heal proc you mention above is really about it outside of our typical buffs.  Our dps is mostly insigifncant compared to other classes and whether on a raid or not, if doing challenging content then burning power on dps is a poor choice anyway. Soloing is in a different category alltogether.  DPS is such a huge factor in soloing that I can certainly understand the templar's need to have an upgrade there.  Personally I think our base AE/DD/DoT should hit for the same amount across all classes (similar to the basic heals) with bonus damage against the appropriate mob type (where are all the elemental raid zones <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  Utility should be in several spell lines with some classes having added buffs or debuffs or added dps or healing etc.  Devs really didn't seem to go that way though. Anyway, that's just my 2 snausages.</span><div></div>

[kenji]

<DIV>Except with a big AE that hits everyone, a group HoT is not worthwhile to cast since the vast majority of that healing power is wasted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Except no AoE and no Manastone click in group, or a group reactive isnt worthwhile to cast since the vast majority of trigger is wasted. AoE hitting Group Reactive = massive power lost, not even able to compete our own Group Heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>even the Group Regen only tick on 1 single person, the ratio is still higher than Templar's direct heal. the ratio is Slightly less than Group Ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and ppls who click their Manastone / Conj wood / Necro heart / HP > Power spell / Pet hp > Power spell will be healed. thats wasting power? /grin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid less to offer to the Group?! debuff u got from your dot? Wintry Cold? 714 Cold and Fire debuff right? every class has debuffs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RipFlex]

<P>As far as I know after Combat Update, just about every RAID leader and group leader knows squat about the Templar changes.</P> <P>FACT - Templars Buffs/Most Heals/Debuffs are SINGLE TARGET SPECIFIC.  Which means We are suppose to be in the MAIN TANK'S group or at least the Main Assist's group; and Debuffs are on a SINGLE ENEMY - the one everyone should be assisting the TANK on.  Our Proc Heals and Debuffs effects works best in this way.</P> <P>Yet I get placed in an ALL caster group in RAIDS = I'm USELESS, all I have a 1 Group reactive heal and very few buffs/debuffs work out side my group and will not proc on the casters.  All I can do is spot heal and Group spam heal = OOP because this is suppose to be the Druids job.</P> <P>I'm DEPENDANT on a Melee Target in our group that hits back and gets hit for all my Spells to work as INTENDED.</P> <P>Otherwise I am just throwing up a reactive target heal and twiddle thumbs.</P> <P>By an new description I have heard, Templars are Proc Healers.</P> <P>Please ask your Templars in your Guild, you'll find I'm right.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by RipFlex on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:18 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by RipFlex on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>I'd be curious to find a single instance of me calling anyone a "liar" or as "stupid".  I'd be the first person to apologize if you can find any instance of me attacking any individual.  I'll point out inconsistencies, inaccuracies, or errors that I see in points or arguments, but as a rule, I don't attack individuals.  You may feel that I condescend, that I'm arrogant, that I'm zealous...but that's a far cry from attacking someone directly, which I take great pains to avoid.</p> <hr></blockquote>Wrong, you do point them, but you also stick to them in the following posts. In the next phase you make strawmen out of them by exaggerating them. As for calling others liars or stupid. Well not with those words.</span><div></div>

[Sinnester]

<div></div><div></div> <div></div> <p><font color="#ffffff" face="Times New Roman" size="3">My apologies to the Templar community.<span> <em><font color="#ff99ff"> </font></em></span><em><font color="#ff99ff">I should not give up!</font></em></font></p> <p><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="#ffffff"></font></font></font> </p> <p><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="#ffffff">After repeatedly posting regarding Templar issues, I came to the conclusion that the posts were just our rants to each other and that developers rarely read the posts since they have already picked out individuals they interface with on a regular basis.<span>   </span>Yes, some individuals have a direct communication line to the developers and other staff within SoE.<span>  </span>Unfortunately, some of these individuals are not the best choices in their class communities for SoE to listen too.<span>  </span></font></font></font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff" face="Times New Roman" size="3">Of course, it would be better that SoE did not have certain individuals that represented  each class and took the time to read each individual post to incorporate into their updates.<span>  </span>However, we all know that is a impossibility due to the massive number of posts on this forum.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff" face="Times New Roman" size="3">What would make an individual a well-rounded representative for the Templar community?<span>  </span>First of all, I truly believe the person would have to be level 60.<span>  </span>They would have to have experience in solo, group, and end game raiding and it wouldn’t hurt to have a person who was experienced in questing.<span>   </span>A person that is familiar with all Templar spells, familiar with fighting techniques, etc.<span>  </span>Each of those areas are distinctively different in play style.<span>  </span>Most templars have the solo and group experience but some that post on this forum are lacking in end game raiding.<span>   </span>My definition of end game raiding is being a lvl 60 templar and fighting lvl 63+^^^ Tier 6 raid encounters.<span>    </span>Until you have participated in these raids, you will have no idea what the needs are in that area.</font></p> <p><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="#ffffff">Now, who has the developers’ ears regarding Templars?<span>  </span>Most of us can bug/feedback all day long but those developers will look for certain names when they read them.<span>  </span>Unfortunately, a individual that has the ear and eyes of a few developers is lacking<span>  </span>in all needed areas to cast a voice for all templars.<span>  </span>Around a month and a half ago, I distinctly remembering having to repeatedly inform this person that Templars no longer had three direct heals.<span>  </span>This is not the only issue this person has been misinformed about.<span>  </span></font></font></font></p>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[Nari]

If we did have a representative, I would like someone who has a stable of templars (or at least someone who mentors a lot.)  I know it sounds silly, but the game is a little different at each tier.  The march to 60 is just as important as sitting at the top. <div></div>

[bigmak20]

<SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>My apologies to the Templar community.<SPAN> <EM><FONT color=#ff99ff> </FONT></EM></SPAN><EM><FONT color=#ff99ff>I should not give up!</FONT></EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></FONT></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>After repeatedly posting regarding Templar issues, I came to the conclusion that the posts were just our rants to each other and that developers rarely read the posts since they have already picked out individuals they interface with on a regular basis.<SPAN>   </SPAN>Yes, some individuals have a direct communication line to the developers and other staff within SoE.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Unfortunately, some of these individuals are not the best choices in their class communities for SoE to listen too.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>Of course, it would be better that SoE did not have certain individuals that represented  each class and took the time to read each individual post to incorporate into their updates.<SPAN>  </SPAN>However, we all know that is a impossibility due to the massive number of posts on this forum.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>What would make an individual a well-rounded representative for the Templar community?<SPAN>  </SPAN>First of all, I truly believe the person would have to be level 60.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They would have to have experience in solo, group, and end game raiding and it wouldn’t hurt to have a person who was experienced in questing.<SPAN>   </SPAN>A person that is familiar with all Templar spells, familiar with fighting techniques, etc.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Each of those areas are distinctively different in play style.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Most templars have the solo and group experience but some that post on this forum are lacking in end game raiding.<SPAN>   </SPAN>My definition of end game raiding is being a lvl 60 templar and fighting lvl 63+^^^ Tier 6 raid encounters.<SPAN>    </SPAN>Until you have participated in these raids, you will have no idea what the needs are in that area.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>Now, who has the developers’ ears regarding Templars?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Most of us can bug/feedback all day long but those developers will look for certain names when they read them.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Unfortunately, a individual that has the ear and eyes of a few developers is lacking<SPAN>  </SPAN>in all needed areas to cast a voice for all templars.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Around a month and a half ago, I distinctly remembering having to repeatedly inform this person that Templars no longer had three direct heals.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This is not the only issue this person has been misinformed about.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Sinnester on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:07 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed wholeheartedly.  lol<BR><BR>What I haven't figured out is if it's a Sony directive to try and squelch any dissent or if it's just a personality issue.<BR><BR>All the references to communications with Sony are extremely disconcerting since there's so much common sense lack of balance in all areas -except for- basic healing.  And even basic healing is out of balance at 58+.<BR><BR>I fail to see how anyone who loves the Templar class could advocate Templar's being gimped and do so under the banner of wanting Templar's to stay in their traditional role of "only a healer" -- that being my opinion of course since that person is so vehement about Templar's only healing.  Makes no sense at all when healing is supposedly equal.<BR><BR><U><I>How could a Templar have privvy to design discussions about all classes being equal in their primary role without inquiring what would happen to the role of a dedicated class?</I></U><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 AM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

Manitos, is there a reason you feel the uncontrollable urge to troll in nearly every sentence in every post you make?  Seriously, even Kendricke makes a coherent point every once in awhile.  If all you're going to do is throw mud (unintelligible mud at that) then save us the time and don't post.  Please. If you have a coherent thought to post then by all means do it, but we'll all be much better off if you keep the trolling and the threats to yourself. <div></div>

[Grimhamm]

<DIV>Templar is no longer a class my guild is recruiting, and it's not because we have too many.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The perception is that the Templar class is now one dimensional - a one-trick pony - and the other healing classes offer a better variety of skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just lucky, I guess, that my guild is not booting Templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

Guess they don't raid much eh? Good luck watching the druidic healers attempt to keep up with damage and actually have power left over at the end of the fight <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[kenji]

<P>well....raid is only happen like 1% of all level, and only happened on high end. i am also a raider, but if u only care about raid balance... sad for u</P> <P>even in raid, our Group Heal ability is way weaker than a few class, such as Fury, Warden and Mystic, they have extra way to heal the group.</P> <P>placing a Templar in DPS group is a waste of slot, placing a fury and warden will have better effects cos of better offensive buffs. for more dps and same direct heal power.</P> <P>defensive buffs only need on MT or maybe MA. for the other 22 players in a raid, u are less-useful on buffs.</P> <P>1 templar and inquisitor is enough for a raid, but not fury / warden. more direct heal power always good, thats why Fury also uber in raid.</P> <P> </P>

[Unmask]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<p>even in raid, our Group Heal ability is way weaker than a few class, such as Fury, Warden and Mystic, they have extra way to heal the group.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't know what kind of raids you do, but the main job of a healer in a raid is keeping the MT alive.  Group reactives can do that but group HoTs cannot. And not sure why you think only 1 temp and 1 inquis is enough.  As I've said before, added clerics can keep reactives up after another cleric's burn out.  This is an advantage druids don't share.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Unmasked on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>the more group reactive priest u place in Main Group, the lesser defensive buff can place with MT.</P> <P>more than 3 Cleric in a raid...wasted, every 8 sec can cover 5 hits with reactive, with 2 Clerics, 4 sec. most single target raid dont require that. if u got the boss slowed, str debuffed, melee skill debuffed, the hit rate from boss will drop good, and the needs of reactive will drop, aka the use of regen will be boosted.</P> <P>Group Reactive only required on Main Group, Group Regen is required on all 3 Group for AoE healing.</P> <P>avoiding AoE is big dps drop in raid. lets say 30 sec per AoE, running in out for 5 sec. dmg lost per sec = 300 per person, 10 melee dps = 3000 per sec, losing 30000 dmg per min is a huge dmg drop. placing a druid each grp to cast Group Regen will help 30000 dmg per min. this is what Group Reactive cant do, but Group Regen pwn all.</P> <P>the freaking warden tree is raid wide or group wide? )</P> <P> </P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<FONT color=#ccff00>Fury here, hope nobody minds if I chime in...</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>my group also trust that i can do sole healer of group, but not because the class, is the skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but after that, is our class balance with other priests? i am sure i can keep same group alive with Templar / Mystic / Fury / Warden (i did borrow guildies' char and try them)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>lack of healing advantage</U>. the healing ability with all priest is very close, not more than 20% difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>That's probably true in raw numbers, but since class specific heals all heal differently they have a varying degree of usefullness dependant on the situation.  I group with a guildie Templar, and have had the opportunity to group with non-guild Templars over the last couple of days in pickup groups.  In a slow leisurely battle, we were probably equal - My HoT's were up to the task.  In tougher fights however I noticed a distinct difference in healing.  To put it bluntly, I didn't feel I could keep up with these folks without chaining direct heals... My only saving grace was Back Into the Fray, which saved two players that I recall, but I think in the long run the Templars did more for keeping the group alive.  Back into the Fray is a power hog, only really worth it if the target is half dead - most of the time I cast it the Templar beat me to the punch and had them up to at least 3/4 health - making it much less effective for the cost of it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>lack of DPS</U>? Templar max i can throw out 150 dps with smites, a Fury can...hm....250++ dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>I agree.  In a previous post of mine (citing and going over numbers from the damage threads in the general priest forum) I expected to see a direct relationship between DPS and efficiency (ie. more DPS = less efficiency and vice versa).  I was actually rather shocked at the final numbers.  Templars actually have a line that when put up against the other classes comparative line was both the <EM>least</EM> damaging AND the <EM>least</EM> efficient.  When I reviewed the numbers, it seems that there really wasn't much rhyme or reason to the way things were stacking.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Armor isnt working well</U>. the advantage of Heavy Armor is meaningless,  50% less avoidance (20% of LA, 10% of HA) but mitigation just 25% difference (40% of HA and 30% LA) and Templar's Longer cast time will just make less chance to cast heal while getting beat</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Important to note here that mitigation is far more upgradable than avoidance.  You can find armor with better mitigation and spells that directly buff mitigation, but you can't find armor/spells that increase avoidance except by the secondary effect of increased Agility (which is also found on armor, though it doesn't do as much for plate tanks).  I'm not sure what the ratio of mit:avoid is, but in my experience I can buff mitigation far more than my agility buffs can increase avoidance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>I'm not sure about the Templars longer cast times (I always assumed part of the "balance"  was quicker less damage spells vs. slower high damage spells) but I know my two big damage spells (my DD and my AoE) have cast/recast times of 3/15 and 4/20 respectively, so I can relate to the frequent interrupts.  I personally think that Focus needs some tweaking.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><U>Utilities.</U>  Templar's Utilities are mostly heals, cant rely on them at all...bonus? maybe....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Don't Templars get some decent crowd control ability? Not sure if that's something that works for you folks or not, could be something to be expanded on though?  Crowd control can help in soloing, if you can keep part of the group locked down, that's less you get pounded and fewer interrupts?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Lack of Buff Choices.</U> other classes have more different type of buffs to choose, such as Fury's Group Int + Wis buffs. which we dun have it.. or just the single target version (cant even buff more with conc....sux)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Looking at the Templar lists, it looks like you are more group health/resist/mitigation buffers.  I'll admit that it may seem like a poor trade off compared to Wis/Int, but it looks like the intent was our buff being for casting classes and yours for tanking classes.  While that probably increases your survivability when soloing, it does nothing for your soloability in regards to increasing DPS (INT) or power pool (WIS).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar isnt a Gimped class that cant keep a group alive, but all priests also keep the group same well....what does we got as advantage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Again, I can relate <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  For nine months Furies couldn't heal as well as others, didn't do the damage we do now, and were regularly overlooked in groups for a "real" healer.  All I can say is hang in there, with the sheer volume of Templar threads it's pretty much a guarantee that SOE is looking at the situation.  I wouldn't be surprised if they are datamining right now in an effort to get good data on discrepencies.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>12-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:38 AM</span>

[Formangenavn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <P>the more group reactive priest u place in Main Group, the lesser defensive buff can place with MT.</P> <P>more than 3 Cleric in a raid...wasted, every 8 sec can cover 5 hits with reactive, with 2 Clerics, 4 sec. most single target raid dont require that. if u got the boss slowed, str debuffed, melee skill debuffed, the hit rate from boss will drop good, and the needs of reactive will drop, aka the use of regen will be boosted.</P> <P>Group Reactive only required on Main Group, Group Regen is required on all 3 Group for AoE healing.</P> <P>avoiding AoE is big dps drop in raid. lets say 30 sec per AoE, running in out for 5 sec. dmg lost per sec = 300 per person, 10 melee dps = 3000 per sec, losing 30000 dmg per min is a huge dmg drop. placing a druid each grp to cast Group Regen will help 30000 dmg per min. this is what Group Reactive cant do, but Group Regen pwn all.</P> <P>the freaking warden tree is raid wide or group wide? )</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just got healing tree, but pretty sure it is grp only. Range is supposed to be 20 meters, but is only 10 meters. Funny thing about this spell is that it can be usefull for healing the entire grp vs aoe, but even the smallest amount of damage will kill it. Can you imagine? A spell that can be killed by the very thing its supposed to counter? I am guessing the devs are laughing about this one. </DIV>

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:<div></div><font color="#ccff00">Fury here, hope nobody minds if I chime in... <font color="#ccffff">Certainly not, especially as your post is constructive and not the usual overly defensive paranoid clap-trap we tend to see from furies </font> </font> <blockquote> <hr> kenjiso wrote: <div>my group also trust that i can do sole healer of group, but not because the class, is the skill.</div> <div> </div> <div>but after that, is our class balance with other priests? i am sure i can keep same group alive with Templar / Mystic / Fury / Warden (i did borrow guildies' char and try them)  </div> <div> </div> <div><u>lack of healing advantage</u>. the healing ability with all priest is very close, not more than 20% difference.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">That's probably true in raw numbers, but since class specific heals all heal differently they have a varying degree of usefullness dependant on the situation.  I group with a guildie Templar, and have had the opportunity to group with non-guild Templars over the last couple of days in pickup groups.  In a slow leisurely battle, we were probably equal - My HoT's were up to the task.  In tougher fights however I noticed a distinct difference in healing.  To put it bluntly, I didn't feel I could keep up with these folks without chaining direct heals... My only saving grace was Back Into the Fray, which saved two players that I recall, but I think in the long run the Templars did more for keeping the group alive.  Back into the Fray is a power hog, only really worth it if the target is half dead - most of the time I cast it the Templar beat me to the punch and had them up to at least 3/4 health - making it much less effective for the cost of it. <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff">While everyone is happy to argue of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the classes in healing terms I don't think its unfair to say that all the priest classes can heal groups comparably, except perhaps in very exceptional circumstances. As there are a lot of furies in my guild I group with them often and have never seen them struggling to keep a MT standing. I'd also note that Templars are also spamming direct heals when the going gets tough so you are by no means alone there. It's just that with our stupidly long recast times we are often standing there apparently doing nothing, chillin out. When in reality we are screaming out our screens waiting for a heal icon to pop back up again.</font> </font></div> <div> </div> <div><u>lack of DPS</u>? Templar max i can throw out 150 dps with smites, a Fury can...hm....250++ dps</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">I agree.  In a previous post of mine (citing and going over numbers from the damage threads in the general priest forum) I expected to see a direct relationship between DPS and efficiency (ie. more DPS = less efficiency and vice versa).  I was actually rather shocked at the final numbers.  Templars actually have a line that when put up against the other classes comparative line was both the <em>least</em> damaging AND the <em>least</em> efficient.  When I reviewed the numbers, it seems that there really wasn't much rhyme or reason to the way things were stacking. <font color="#ccffff">Thankyou for saying that. We've known its true since day one but it takes a bigger man than a lot of the other priests we get here to actually say it. In return, we have been acknowledging this is a problem for most priest classes and needs to be looked at as a whole.</font> </font></div> <div> </div> <div><u>Armor isnt working well</u>. the advantage of Heavy Armor is meaningless,  50% less avoidance (20% of LA, 10% of HA) but mitigation just 25% difference (40% of HA and 30% LA) and Templar's Longer cast time will just make less chance to cast heal while getting beat</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">Important to note here that mitigation is far more upgradable than avoidance.  You can find armor with better mitigation and spells that directly buff mitigation, but you can't find armor/spells that increase avoidance except by the secondary effect of increased Agility (which is also found on armor, though it doesn't do as much for plate tanks).  I'm not sure what the ratio of mit:avoid is, but in my experience I can buff mitigation far more than my agility buffs can increase avoidance. <font color="#ccffff">The problem is that mitigation has no effect on interupts, which plague the heavy plate classes, whereas avoidance does since you dont get hit. So while I accept we can increase mitigation as you said, it doesn't solve the problem we have i.e. ridiculous numbers of interupts.</font> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff00"></font><font color="#ccff00"></font> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">I'm not sure about the Templars longer cast times (I always assumed part of the "balance"  was quicker less damage spells vs. slower high damage spells) but I know my two big damage spells (my DD and my AoE) have cast/recast times of 3/15 and 4/20 respectively, so I can relate to the frequent interrupts.  I personally think that Focus needs some tweaking. <font color="#ccffff">Agreed, I think the main problem is focus. It doesn't seem to actually do anything really.</font> </font></div> <div><font color="#ccff00"></font> </div> <div><u>Utilities.</u>  Templar's Utilities are mostly heals, cant rely on them at all...bonus? maybe....</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">Don't Templars get some decent crowd control ability? Not sure if that's something that works for you folks or not, could be something to be expanded on though?  Crowd control can help in soloing, if you can keep part of the group locked down, that's less you get pounded and fewer interrupts? <font color="#ccffff"> </font><font color="#ccffff">Our crowd control is abysmal. The mezz is totally useless in groups as noone can see when we have ghetto mezzed an add as the add can still move about and has no spell effect on it to indicate its disabled. The stun is useless soloing due to an insane cast time and even more insane recast time. It does have its uses grouping though to be fair.</font> </font></div> <div> </div> <div><u>Lack of Buff Choices.</u> other classes have more different type of buffs to choose, such as Fury's Group Int + Wis buffs. which we dun have it.. or just the single target version (cant even buff more with conc....sux)</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">Looking at the Templar lists, it looks like you are more group health/resist/mitigation buffers.  I'll admit that it may seem like a poor trade off compared to Wis/Int, but it looks like the intent was our buff being for casting classes and yours for tanking classes.  While that probably increases your survivability when soloing, it does nothing for your soloability in regards to increasing DPS (INT) or power pool (WIS).</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Templar isnt a Gimped class that cant keep a group alive, but all priests also keep the group same well....what does we got as advantage?</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ccff00">Again, I can relate <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  For nine months Furies couldn't heal as well as others, didn't do the damage we do now, and were regularly overlooked in groups for a "real" healer.  All I can say is hang in there, with the sheer volume of Templar threads it's pretty much a guarantee that SOE is looking at the situation.  I wouldn't be surprised if they are datamining right now in an effort to get good data on discrepencies. <font color="#ccffff">We hope so. Most of us felt your pain during your 9 months. I guess we are praying its not going to be 9 months for us. Having said that, its coming up to 3 already.</font> </font></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class="date_text">12-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccffff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccffff>Our crowd control is abysmal. The mezz is totally useless in groups as noone can see when we have ghetto mezzed an add as the add can still move about and has no spell effect on it to indicate its disabled.</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This statement is a bit too hyperbolic for my taste.  While pacify is not nearly as effective as a true mez (mainly because its recast time is so much longer than its duration), it is good for reducing incoming damage for a significant time, if you communicate well while using the spell and the group is good at staying on the MA.  Also, pacified mobs show no attacking animations.  Not as glamorous or noticeable as particle effects, and definitely in need of improvement, but it is better than nothing.  I have used this spell effectively many times in many situations. . . especially in small groups when things aren't quite as confusing.</P> <P>But yeah, if you use the spell in stealth without explaining what you are doing, or if your group is lousy, pacify doesn't last long.  I doubt that particle effects would help much in this case anyway.</P> <P>Is pacify worth 100 dps?  Not a chance.  But one thing is sure--if you never use the spell because you think it is useless, it will be useless.</P> <P>Alephin</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Andu]

Alephin, you raise a good point. As the recst time is so poor, why cant it act like a proper mezz - it would hardly be game breaking. As for your comments about it needing a good group, I would say it needed a well drilled group of close friends on Teamspeak. Most mobs are called the same or similar things in an encounter. If you call out that you have mezzed Spider1 when you are fighting three of them, everyone in the group looks round to see which one you are on about. Unfortunately, all of them are still running around apparently fine. Statements like "Mezzing Spider1, the one on the left at the back of the group by the MT" are usually beyond the scope of most macros. And Im a fair typist but not that quick. <div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><U>lack of healing advantage</U>. the healing ability with all priest is very close, not more than 20% difference.</DIV><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT></FONT> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccffff>While everyone is happy to argue of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the classes in healing terms I don't think its unfair to say that all the priest classes can heal groups comparably, except perhaps in very exceptional circumstances. As there are a lot of furies in my guild I group with them often and have never seen them struggling to keep a MT standing. I'd also note that Templars are also spamming direct heals when the going gets tough so you are by no means alone there. It's just that with our stupidly long recast times we are often standing there apparently doing nothing, chillin out. When in reality we are screaming out our screens waiting for a heal icon to pop back up again.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccff00>Ahh.  In that regard we are much the same then.  I spend a lot of time waiting for heals to come back online.  In the interim I can usually toss up a DoT, but my DD and AoE spells have such long cast times themselves that to try one of those would just still be casting when the heal comes back online.</FONT> </FONT> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>lack of DPS</U>? Templar max i can throw out 150 dps with smites, a Fury can...hm....250++ dps<FONT color=#ccff00><BR><BR><FONT color=#ccffff>Thankyou for saying that. We've known its true since day one but it takes a bigger man than a lot of the other priests we get here to actually say it. In return, we have been acknowledging this is a problem for most priest classes and needs to be looked at as a whole.</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccff00>Agreed!</FONT> </FONT> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Armor isnt working well</U>. the advantage of Heavy Armor is meaningless,  50% less avoidance (20% of LA, 10% of HA) but mitigation just 25% difference (40% of HA and 30% LA) and Templar's Longer cast time will just make less chance to cast heal while getting beat</DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccffff>The problem is that mitigation has no effect on interupts, which plague the heavy plate classes, whereas avoidance does since you dont get hit. So while I accept we can increase mitigation as you said, it doesn't solve the problem we have i.e. ridiculous numbers of interupts.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT></FONT> <DIV>Mitigation does have an effect on interrupts though.  More mitigation = less damage taken = less interrupts.  This is from the combat changes that went live with LU#13:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI><SPAN>Your chance to be interrupted while casting is now determined by your Focus skill and the <EM>amount of damage being done by your attacker</EM>.</SPAN></LI></UL> <P>I'm not saying it's working right or not since I don't have access to those numbers, but it appears the idea was to balance avoidance interrupts and mitigation interrupts this way.  Personally, I still get interrupted like crazy, so I'm thinking it's definitely a Focus issue.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's the link to the notes:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=75568&query.id=0" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=75568&query.id=0</A></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </P> <DIV><U>Utilities.</U>  Templar's Utilities are mostly heals, cant rely on them at all...bonus? maybe....<FONT color=#ccff00><BR><FONT color=#ccffff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccffff>Our crowd control is abysmal. The mezz is totally useless in groups as noone can see when we have ghetto mezzed an add as the add can still move about and has no spell effect on it to indicate its disabled. The stun is useless soloing due to an insane cast time and even more insane recast time. It does have its uses grouping though to be fair.</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccff00>Ahh <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If they tweaked those a bit would Templars be happier with their utility?  Properly done crowd control is a great perk!  Shame it appears Templar's need some work done to it.</FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> <DIV><BR><BR><FONT color=#ccffff>We hope so. Most of us felt your pain during your 9 months. I guess we are praying its not going to be 9 months for us. Having said that, its coming up to 3 already.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ccff00><FONT color=#ccff00>I just wish everybody could be happy with their class, and I hope that happiness for you folks comes soon!</FONT> </FONT> <DIV><BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR>Alephin, you raise a good point. As the recst time is so poor, why cant it act like a proper mezz - it would hardly be game breaking.<BR><BR>As for your comments about it needing a good group, I would say it needed a well drilled group of close friends on Teamspeak. Most mobs are called the same or similar things in an encounter. If you call out that you have mezzed Spider1 when you are fighting three of them, everyone in the group looks round to see which one you are on about. Unfortunately, all of them are still running around apparently fine.<BR><BR>Statements like "Mezzing Spider1, the one on the left at the back of the group by the MT" are usually beyond the scope of most macros. And Im a fair typist but not that quick.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Teamspeak isn't necessary, as long as your partners know that you will be routinely using it on adds.  I've had good success using it in duos and trios when you are fighting difficult single targets.  If something adds, everyone knows you will be pacifying it, so the tank just stays on the main target.  If casters are switching off the main target, I would encourage them not to unless they have a very good reason.  Aside from AOEs, you generally want to kill one at a time anyway.  It is more efficient for healing.  Pacify seems to work best for me if your tank doesn't need to damage the mob to keep aggro.  I've also used it to save casters--it holds the damage down until the guardian can get rescue off. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree, though, that it wouldn't be that big of a deal to make it a true mez and just keep the recast time and duration the way they are.  I just hope you haven't given up on the spell, because it has made a big difference with me in winning difficult fights, even without teamspeak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alephin</DIV>

[Wildi]

Amen to OP.

[thomasza]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>  How can you throw stones at me for pointing that out Kendricke?  Why don't you work ok solving that imbalance instead of constantly beating up on people that are trying to get this fixed?  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=15176" target=_blank>Holy Books of Templar: "Compiled List of Bugs and Suggestions"</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11100" target=_blank>An Attempt at Constructive Discussion: What are the problems? What are the suggestions?</A></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>I've also just been informed that my original request for an interview from the developers regarding Templars was handed off to Blackguard last night (questions were chosen from this forum - not one question asked by myself personally).  I hope to have it posted on Caster's Realm later this week, assuming I receive it back soon.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text>Of course, you might feel these are all posts dedicated to "constantly beating up on people".  I perceive it differently.  To each, their own reality.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=navbar_text></SPAN> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So you're now actually where you want to be ? Spokesman of all templars, private time with developers even if the questions arent yours......no wonder this class is in such a bad shape...SoE only listens to a small private group with one man leading.....

[thomasza]

<P>**REMOVED POST DUE TO TROLLING***</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:49 AM</span>

[Copperha]

<P>I have not experienced any problems getting a group when I want one. I have often gotten tells in the middle of crafting or doing other things by players asking me to come group with them. Players whom I have never met or grouped with before, not friends or guildmates. I have never been overlooked or thrown out of a group etc. because a druid or shaman was available. Groups I have been in with more than one healer (assuming its not another templar) have always relied on me to be the main healer. Nobody has ever asked me why I don't DPS or has suggested that I am not pulling my weight because my DPS output is low. I have never been in a group where another players has said something like 'I hear Templars suck now'. </P> <P>*My* main problem with Templars currenty is 2-fold:</P> <P>1) The cast and recast timers on my heals are just too long. </P> <P>2) There are several large portions of the game that templars do not do well in - solo and casual groups. We may be satisfactory/good/great (depending on who you listen too) at hardcore groups but I want to be able to play all three aspects of the game reasonably effectively. Reasonably effectively means I have fun doing it. My other alts don't have these kinds of playstyle restrictions. [I have not done enough raiding to comment on raiding].  </P><p>Message Edited by Copperhand on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 AM</span>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR>Alephin, you raise a good point. As the recst time is so poor, why cant it act like a proper mezz - it would hardly be game breaking.<BR><BR>As for your comments about it needing a good group, I would say it needed a well drilled group of close friends on Teamspeak. Most mobs are called the same or similar things in an encounter. If you call out that you have mezzed Spider1 when you are fighting three of them, everyone in the group looks round to see which one you are on about. Unfortunately, all of them are still running around apparently fine.<BR><BR>Statements like "Mezzing Spider1, the one on the left at the back of the group by the MT" are usually beyond the scope of most macros. And Im a fair typist but not that quick.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm...a good mt can separate for "real" mezzing....step back, swing what have ya. Maybe if they just added a solid root component...that would make it a little easier to know what the hell I am talking about when I say "locked %t". Even if they can still fling spells, it would be workable. But I loathe the whole concept of Sign. Gimme back me str debuff, and since you waited so long to do it, I want some solid negatives to all the o-skills of the target....yeah, thats the ticket....</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>