Musings on what is likely...and what is not.

[Kendricke]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After some rather lengthy discussions and talks with some folks I respect greatly, I've mulled this subject a bit.  We Templars are a passionate bunch, often stubborn and principled.  Some of us more than others.  We all want a better class, but we're not necessarily sure on the best way way for this to occur, or even the best way to convey those requests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even then, I think that many times we might be asking for unlikely requests.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was recently conveyed to me that Wisdom does not affect healing for good cause.  I trust the person who informed me on this and the reasoning he used.  Basically, during the course of this conversation, it was explained that healing needs to be constant...or it can become too overpowered, and thus trivialize many encounters.  In fact, this was apparantly a problem prior to the revamp, that some encounters were all but completely trivial in difficulty using the right combination of mitigation and healing.  This was a major reason that Guardians, Templars, and other classes were balanced in the way that they were, apparantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a likely reason why the developers are not using Wisdom to affect healing.  It's unlikely that they simply ignored healing or ignored wisdom.  All adventuring archetypes expect priests are able to directly impact their primary role with a specific attribute or combination of attributes.  Priests alone cannot affect our primary role, which is healing, by way of any attribute.  No attribute affects healing.  It's simply improbable that this is an oversight...so it must be likely that it was deliberate.  It's possible I'm wrong, but the facts seem to indicate a strong preference toward the idea that this was intentional design.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, for purposes of argument, let's assume that to be the case - that healing truly is not affected by any attribute by intentional design.  Let's assume here within this case that this is because healing is somehow so important to overall game design that it requires more direct control than other spell types, arts, or abilities.  It's merely a theory, but for the purposes of this essay, I'm going to assume it to be true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, with that said, it leaves me to wonder how Templars and other priests are supposed to become better at what they do best - which is healing.  We're completely gear dependent, in a class which is based around mitigation as opposed to avoidance.  We don't root.  We don't snare.  We don't hide.  We don't run.  We don't take on other forms.  We stand...toe to toe...with our chosen enemy and we slug it out.  We are, in my mind, the defensive priest.  We take a beating and wear out our opponents over time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, this, in and of itself should be fine.  We die less and take less risks regarding death.  When experience debt was larger, and groups feared anyone dying at all due to group debt, and shards were harder to find and obtain...well, then our ability to stay standing longer meant something.  However, as it stands, death isn't quite the deterrant it once was.  Slow and steady doesn't seem to be the best way to win the day anymore.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, some Templars want faster and stronger, and they want it now.  I don't agree personally with this stance.  It's not what I am nor what I ever proposed to be.  I simply want to be the best healer, and I want to be needed.  If I were to be bold, I'd wager that a fair number of Templars feel similarly.  Yes, we're still good at what we do best.  However, our flaws are ever so much more apparant now that our strength has been reigned in a bit.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I'm not arguing that the balancing was not necessary for overall game health.  I believe it was.  I believe we were truly overpowered before.  Yet, even though I still feel us to be powerful now, we do have issues as a class.  We have balance issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've put together the data, and I continue to compile the issues.  I run numbers nightly and weekly, both live and on test.  Members of my guild do the same.  We deliberate and pass on our findings when we're able to those we hope are listening.  Then we start anew.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>During these discussions, several key points have been raised regarding what is likely...and what is not.  From a game perspective, it's highly unlikely we'll see new spell lines or a removal of current lines.  It's simply not something that's readily apparant.  After analyzing several different classes within several different Archetypes, we've reached a general conclusion that there's a definate pattern of spell lines within archetypes awarded out by level.  All priests receive their first small direct heal at the same time.  All priests receive water breathing in the same level.  All priests except Templars receive their animal/wraith form at the same time.  All priests receive their primary specialty heal at the same time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A general pattern emerges level after level.  Looking at the larger picture shows this.  Not all spells are balanced equally against each other individually, but all spells are awarded as part of a larger pattern.  It's not always immediately apparant, but it's there if you look for it.  It's very likely this is by design.  It's even more likely this was part of the revamp project's goals from the start.  Looking at the hundreds of spells across the class lines, listed by level, and you start to see this pattern more clearly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even more so, it occured that based on the amount of work that went into the revamp, spells could not simply be removed either...lest all classes in an Archetype find themselves suddenly being "rebalanced".  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So seeing this pattern opened my eyes to the realization that it's highly unlikely that Templars will be seeing new spell lines for direct heals or damage shields.  With that in mind, I turned my attention to proposals based more along the line of tweaking what is already there - altering spells by tweaking effects rather than outright removal, replacement, or additions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This seemed the more likely path to enacting positive change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, again, all Templars aren't going to agree with this logic of mine.  Even those that do will likely not agree with me on the specific tweaks I'd personally like to see.  That's not the point.  The point is that based on my own observations (which may be flawed, biased, or just wrong), it seems apparant to me that it's much more likely that we'll be able to work toward minor revisions than major changes or deviations from the current spell line up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tweak a little effect here, a casting time there, what can be targeted here, or some DPS there, and you've got the same basic goals acheived without demanding new damage spells, new heals, or new utility spells.  It's also much more likely than asking that some spell lines be outright removed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, whether or not I'm right or wrong doesn't matter.  Whether or not I wrote this or someone else did shouldn't matter.  Read what's written and take it on its own merits...then ask yourselves:  What's likely...and what is not?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Disclaimer:  This essay reflects only my personal opinions and observations.  No attacks or tone is intended as offensive or condescending in any way.  Any perceived slights can be sent to me in a private message for clarification an possible editing.</FONT>  </DIV>

[bigmak20]

<P>I think you're right about the wisdom stat Kendricke.  I don't like it; but I think you're right.</P> <P>I certainly hope SOE realizes this further [Removed for Content] a class whose primary buff is Wisdom.  I hope they also realize this is another slap in our face as it opposes their previous positions -- but based on what's in the game I think your conclusion is correct and SOE will not allow Wisdom to impact healing.</P> <P>Why allow Int to impact dmg?  Why have stats at all?  Just have 4 classes and a handful of spells each... pfft.  I digress.</P> <P>To be honest, it is not readily apparent why Templar's are in this game.</P>

[Gcha]

<P>Readers' Digest version: to change the Grand Sheme would be unbalancing.</P> <P>Consumers' response: there was a Grand Scheme in SWG too ... until the day they changed it to another Grand Scheme.  And then, of course, you know, they changed it again.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR><FONT color=#993300>Remember the Alamo !  ... er, I mean, locked encounters.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#993300></FONT> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Gchang on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This post by Kendricke follows his usual style. His post is long, and I will sum up in a couple of sentences how it reads to me, and then comment on that, not on the long post. I believe he is saying something like this (no I am not being sarcastic, and this is not rude, this is exactly what I am understanding he is saying) :-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>"Look guys, for a start, Templar is not broken, we are essentially fine. We could do with a few tweaks though, and I think SoE realise that. However, you really all need to stop posting so much with such passion, as it is making them back off and do nothing. You need to just accept we are basically fine, or move on to another class if you are not happy, as you must have chosen the wrong class. The likelihood is, SoE will do nothing other than a few tweaks."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>This is pretty much what Kendricke has posted a few hundred times already, on many threads, but using different words each time. There is really nothing new in his position (there is no reason there would be). However, he remains as fundamentally "wrong" in my opinion as he was when he first said it, two months ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. <FONT color=#ffff00>Templar is indeed broken at the moment.</FONT> It does not need 'little tweaks', it needs significant rebalancing. As things stand now, outside raids and very strong full groups of precisely the right sort of make up, taking on very strong targets, Templars as a class package are now noticeably and significantly weaker than the other priest classes. [Note: this includes to a lesser extent Inquisitors as well, but I will not dwell on that]. As a result, a significant number of Templars have quit, retired, or started alts in the hope that fixes will be made later. Of those who are still playing Templar, a significant number of these are unhappy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. <FONT color=#ffff00>We absolutely must not stop posting our feelings and passion</FONT>, and when we think something is wrong, we should say so. It is called FEEDBACK, and it is a good thing. The exact opposite of his comment, I believe that the only thing making the Devs "back off", if indeed they are, are the comments of a few people like Kendricke himself, which combined with his usual posting style of putting others down, is riling up a section of the community and causing flamewar style threads. What really would help us is if he (not everyone else) stopped posting so much, and let the rest of us express our concerns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. <FONT color=#ffff00>We did not choose the wrong class</FONT>, we were not to know that ten months in our class would get badly hammered and redefined as something significantly weaker than other priest classes outside raid situations. The correct response is not to accept it quietly, but to comment and yes, complain, and loudly! If we feel that SoE made a bad mistake, and I for one believe that they have done, then that needs to be passed back, and in volume (this can be done without throwing insults, that really is counter-productive and quite rude - although I believe SoE have made an error, it most certainly is not malicious, and there is no excuse for throwing insults at SoE staff ever). However, the louder the feedback, the more frequent the message, the better. Like most commerical companies, SoE will (quite rightly) deal with the largest causes of pain to them first. If a hundred people feel as I do, they should ALL post, and post often, and make sure the message is heard, and the strength of the upset gets through. This is about caring for ones' gaming class. If we didn't care, we would have just shrugged, cancelled the accounts and moved on. Some did that, but most have not, and I am not at the point where I will even consider that, as I do believe SoE care about their game, just like we do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. The last one is speculation. <FONT color=#ffff00>What are SoE likely to do? We won't know until they tell us!</FONT> Well .. I have no opinion on this one, I do not have the information to speculate with. However, I do know and see the unhappiness of a vast proportion of Templars, and SoE do not like large numbers of unhappy players, and do have a history of addressing their concerns, eventually.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can say with certainty, is what I would like to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to see Templars being balanced with other priest classes (like the Fury). If a Fury can heal as well as I can in an average group of 2 to 6 players, and this is as SoE intends, then no longer is healing the issue, and there is truely no purpose in asking for our direct healing advantage to be restored - SoE do not wish this, they have said so. However, my 'utility' heals that Kendricke loves are not needed in 98% (or more) of the groups I have ever been in, because healing is easy enough anyway. I end up using a significant portion of my power contributing damage. For me, if ALL our proc heal lines were deleted overnight tonight, I think I might not actually notice for a long time, since I do not need them to heal an average group of 2-6 players questing or doing XP groups. No-one will invite any Templar to such a group to get those abilities ... ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it comes down to that - if the Fury can use that "extra" power to fire nukes that have a base damage that is typically three times mine, and if when ungrouped, they can solo two or three times faster ... then apart from hardcore raidguilds, and closed friends groups who wonit care about your class, why would anyone play a Templar ... ever... why would anyone ask a Templar to a group ... ever ...? The only ones that will will be those who take advantage of people who haven't realized (yet) how weak the Templar class is (but you will know you are leeching). Those in the know will be inviting more useful priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fixes are needed. Spell lines need removing and replacing. Damage needs improving. Utility needs strengthening. All these things MUST happen if (for example) Furies are to continue to be able to heal as well as Templars (and they will, because that is the ONE thing SoE have been crystal clear about - all priests must now heal equally, they say).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If they do not happen, the Templar class is dead in the water for casual players.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will these fixes happen? Maybe... we will see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar] ... a healer and nothing else of relative value.<BR>Annaelisa [42 Fury] ... an equal healer to any Templar her level ... but MUCH MUCH more as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:13 AM</span>

[Isim]

<P>I for one hope the DEV's do plan to upgrade DPS and our utilities. Thanks to guildies I finally made it to lvl 50, playing my templar is not as rewarding or fun as playing any of the other classes. </P> <P>If the DEV's dont change the templar for the better, then I will a have an outfitter as a main toon.</P> <P>just my 2 coppers worth</P>

[Cowdenic]

It would be very easy for the Devs I imagine to put in a low level spell say level 4 that is a non upgradable spell, that grows with level as an offensive stance for healers. They can choose to make it slightly different (flavor) for all healing classes if they like. That gets rid of the balance problem, and since it upgrades with level they can tweak it as they like i.e. if it is too much at 55 they can tone it down, not enough at 57 they could bump it up.

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Something definitely needs to change.  And I'm not so sure it's the Templar class itself.  As I've said in another post, I think the reason why I feel so one-sided in an xp group is because we're not being challenged as healers.  We're also not seeing how we're better in the healing department than another priest class.  In an average xp group, all ya need is one priest and it doesn't matter who it is because we all heal the group well enough to take on these unchallenging encounters.  Only when a group decides to step it up with chain-pulling and multiple heroic encounters attacking the group simultaneously do we start to feel like we're sweating a little and that perhaps we are REALLY good at what we do compared to other priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe it's time for the devs to take a step back and evaluate why xp groups can't find challenging content within their level range that's also efficient xp-wise.  Instead of changing our classes even more.  I'd love to see more heroic encounters that do a great deal of AE damage or better AI where our role as a whole-group healer can really come to the surface.  Sure you could always go fight reds, but who's taking the damage most of the time?  The tank.  In that case, he who has the best single-target healing ability will always win the spot in the group.  And, for the most part, not let us exercise our true potential as Templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something to think about anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

Kendricke, again I disagree with you and the devs. True that if wisdom affected healing, it could be overpowering if it was done wrong. So it seems that devs just cannot make it right. So I think devs are not making wis to affect healing because that would actually give templars some edge on healing and thus it would mean that they would give up on their idea of all healers being equal healers. So since we cannot get any more heals, we need to be balanced in every other respect. We need faster direct heals, we need more of actual heals instead of damage control spells. We need to be able to heal damage after it has been done, instead of guessing when group might take some. We need far better group healing capability than what we have now. And we need a lot more DPS and burst DPS. As it is, any healer can perform as well as we do. This is because every weakness any priest class has, can be circumvented. Our lack of group healing can be circumvented by keeping the rest of the group away from AA range. Lack of healing power with multiple mobs can be avoided by not taking on any adds. Etc. But on average, we are no better than any other class. So why take a templar? Seriously. Do you have any reason to pick up a templar to your group if you can choose from several healers? Any one of those can heal equally so what is the next criteria? Not everyone have 2 scouts in their group and scouts definately cannot do 1000DPS in a regular group with a fighter as mt. So why would the average group pick a templar? Because of our rez? Heh, you think thay plan on dying once per 2 minutes? Odyssey? Ok, so they want to get home and don't have Call up, you are alone in 12 mins and back to soloing. So, what is it? Face it, templars are badly broken. We are not fine. <div></div>

[Stjarna Kvar]

You knew it was coming./BASH/BASH/BASHDid you remember to pre-cast your reactive heals and drink a vs heat potion?/SHAME on you guys... please put your blasted animosity towards others awayWhat does it tell me about you that within an hour of Kendriche posting anything that the same people come out and post direct and advarsarial posts after his?Kendriche, your logic doesn't sound flawed to me. I didn't read into your post an indication that your think Templars are not broken. As a matter of fact, as part of your post, I found that most of the suggestions that were floating around fit within the scope of your suggestions. You even mentioned the possibility of DPS Upgrades. If anything, you've come around in your position to be closer toward the "lets get some changes" crowd than you were before.

[Mor]

Using the Warden experience as evidence, I'd say you're probably right Kendricke.   We asked for a true direct heal or at least a 75/25 split (or more) so that we could deal with spike damage.  We didn't get either.  We asked for regens to be more responsive to incoming damage and that they be able to pool their healing, similar to reactives and wards.  Neither of these was implemented, either.  Instead, they tweaked our spells in ways that looked<i> very</i> insufficient on paper.  Surprisingly, those seemingly minor changes made the class playable again.   We still stink at spike damage in comparison to the other classes.  However, we can get the job done overall and that really wasn't possible before. So if the past is any indication, I'd say you're probably not going to get major changes made.   But I would also say that minor changes can make a big, big difference in practice.  <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<P>Let me some up this thread.</P> <P> </P> <P>Kendricke posts (any commentary of any sort)</P> <P>Usual kendricke haters appear (add kendricke is a fool commentary here)</P> <P>Other people post ignoring the haters and actually add something</P> <P>then some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like me posts and comments on the actions of others.</P> <P> </P> <P>I read a lot of the commentary on this forum, I even use to post my ideas a lot.....but so many people on here spend time doing personal attacks it's silly.  No wonder this is being nicknamed the viper's den.</P> <P>I personally don't read in here very much just because of all the pricks in here,  I wouldn't be surprised if Devs don't want to read this forum unless payed overtime to do it heh.</P>

[Magpie1]

<DIV><FONT size=1>It is not often I post on these boards, though I read them daily, but I would like to add my voice to the concerns of the Templar class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>First up, I would like to say that I also do not like the slights, direct or implied, that are cast in various directions by some members of this board. It is not enjoyable to read.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>In amongst these slights, however, are the fundamental concerns of many templars and these should not be ignored, irrespective of whether the devs do or do not feel comfortable posting here. It bothers me that there have been suggestions that devs do not read or respond to posts because of such insults. Their job is to improve the game and failing to take heed of concerns, no matter how poorly presented or insulting, would be unprofessional in my opinion.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>I agree that any changes that will be made to our class are likely to be small tweaks, unfortunately. Most groups that I have experienced will try to pick up a second healer in order to take down named mobs which consigns us to support healing - largely unecessary unless you have an over zealous wizard. The reason for this problem, in my opinion, is the type of heal we have. The reactive is most efficient when applied after the tank has dropped to a certain health level. This level varies between templars but is generally lower than the level that either druids or shamen will start healing. In the presence of either of these classes they therefore become the healer as they respond to the damage earlier than a templar needs to. This immediately relegates us to dps or debuffing, which, as has been mentioned many times, we are rather poor at. Since the changes to healing on other classes I now find myself superflous to general group play. My only real use is when we come up against a named or the rare add (the temptation to wander 'accidentally' in the direction of such adds is undoubtedly a symptom of my boredom and I am trying to cure myself). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>What we need is difficult to pinpoint. A group should be equally competent whether it has a templar, shaman or druid. The problem is when there is more than one healer, which is often necessary to take down named mobs. Previously this was not an issue as the logical step was to have the templar healing and the shaman or druid as support and make use of their better debuffs/dps/utility. Now, with equal heals, the druids and the shamen understandably want to do the healing - there is no good reason why they shouldnt, that is why we became templars after all. But this leaves our role as almost non-existant, apart from named or raid encounters.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Tweaking may help. Improved DPS, debuffs and/or utility would at least help me feel that I have a role to play in general group encounters. Improved spell casting times on our current debuffs would certainly help - most mobs have usually lost 80% of their health before I have landed those spells. Personally I would like to see an alternative approach - I would like to see an additional line of modified reactives that contain a HOT or direct heal component. Im fairly sure I have read a similar suggestion before. This heal should not be any more powerful, overall, than the equivalent reactive, but would give us a stronger position as the primary healer in multi-healer groups. I know I am rehashing many of the arguments and solutions previously put forward in many threads - but I would feel remiss if I did not voice my concerns and present my thoughts on some of the solutions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>I want to see templars as the best healers - it is our class defining role. However SOE have never said this would be the case, infact if I recall correctly they said that all healers would heal equally. So I am willing to settle for having a role in healing. This we do not have at the minute. This is where our class is 'broken'. </FONT><FONT size=1>In the absence of some changes, I must admit that for the first time in four years, playing EQ and now EQ2, I am growing weary of being a Templar. I will persevere and take Hel to 60, but I suspect a new main is in the offing. Which seems quite sad somehow. </FONT></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magpie1 wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>In amongst these slights, however, are the fundamental concerns of many templars and these should not be ignored, irrespective of whether the devs do or do not feel comfortable posting here. It bothers me that there have been suggestions that devs do not read or respond to posts because of such insults. Their job is to improve the game and failing to take heed of concerns, no matter how poorly presented or insulting, would be unprofessional in my opinion.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Between 5,000 and 50,000 posts are made on the forums daily.  That's not counting the Non-Gameplay Discussion forum which can add another 5-10,000 all by itself.  Should the developers read each and every posting to make sure they're not missing anything...or should they develop quick reading habits to weed through the majority of posts to quickly identify concerns and issues?</P> <P>I'm on these forums a lot, and I can only get through a few hundred posts a day on average.  I'm pretty sure that we want the developers spending more time developing and less time reading the forums than I do...so what would you have them do?</P> <P>You may consider it unprofessional to avoid certain customer complaints.  I do not.  While managing a project team at one company some time back, one of our technicians came to me with an issue presented by one of our customers.  This customer had become furious with our technician on the phone because of an issue we were trying to help him with.  The technician wanted to know what to do with the customer since he was refusing to cooperate with basic troubleshooting.  So I asked him if the customer was being "difficult or belligerant".  Our tech wanted to know what I meant.  I told him, "It's a customer's right to be difficult, and you'll work with him anyway.  If he's belligerant, then the problem is the customer's and he can either figure out the issue on his own or find a better way to work with our representatives."</P> <P>These are people we're talking about.  Not a faceless corporation here, but people.  Yet, not a day doesn't go by that I don't see demands that they be fired, demoted, or otherwise punished; that I don't see their intelligence called into question; that I don't hear their work ethic slandered; that I don't hear of at least one bodily threat being uttered against them.  If this were my team, I'd issue you a month's payment back, cancel your account, and wish you well with the competition.  Frankly, I'm absolutely astounded at the level of abuse we expect them to put up with while smiling, and then try to justify it as "their fault" when we're called on it.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Andalla]

<DIV>ok, so assuming your balancing issues must be fixed with changes to pre existing spell lines, i looked at a non specific templar spell list, and came up with a few possible solutions to your woes. i am an inquisitor, and am feeling the push a little as well, but i don't really think that priest problems are anywhere near as pronounced as many people on this board believe. maybe inquisitors are just better off; but i doubt it. i did, however, come up with a few changes to existing spells that could help balance your class a bit, and make it more desirable to group with. yeah, i'm not a templar, flame on, but at least i'm trying to make a change instead of simply slandering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the spells in their current form are listed, but i have added the proposed changes in bold:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>54- Divine Praetorate: An augmentation that increases the strength and wisdom of the templar's ally. <STRONG>This spell also grants the target a 10% chance to proc a damage and stun effect when struck (recommended amount: 200ish and a 2 second stun)</STRONG>.This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reason: Many templars have been calling for a personal only damage shield. this spell potentially offers an even better solution: it doesn't use up concentration, but it can only be maintained on one ally. So if the templar is soloing, he or she can utilize this spell personally, but when in a group it can be granted to a player who will benefit from it. SOE has granted garunteed damage shields to very few classes (fury, wizard, and inquisitor), but there are items available that have a % chance to proc a damage effect, so clearly they are not so averse to every class having such effects. The 10% chance to proc matches the inquisitor version of this spell, which instead drains power and returns it to the inquisitor. So maintaining a 10% proc chance keeps it in line with the other priest's comparable buff. Also considering how many times a templar is being hit per fight, this will grant a significant improvement to your dps, as well as a stun effect. If any spell is made to be changed, it is this one. increasing the amount of strength granted by this spell, and having the dps of Holy Redoubt increased will also help, and the change does not need to be great to see a decent improvement in kill speed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>58- Symbol of Naltron: An augmentation that increases the Health pool of the Templar and allies and<STRONG> increases Armor Class.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Screw this "chance to increase armor class when struck" bs. Seriously, you need the ac when you're hit, and you need it to be something you can count on. All SOE is doing here is increasing the potential for damage spikes when a big hit comes and the increase in armor class doesn't happen. They are making templar lives more complicated by in effect increasing damage spikes, and thus cutting down on the reliability of your heals. Just make it a flat AC increase; templars get a way to decrease mitigation of their opponents, and inquisitors (the supposed "debuffing priests") get a spell that grants a flat AC increase, but templars don't? What happened to templars being the "defensive priests" if they don't even get a buff that garuntees an increase in defense?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>59- Judging Smite: Deals instant divine damage to target enemy and <STRONG>stuns them</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, the pacification idea is a terrible one. When is a mob a: not being actively attacked or b: dotted? It is nearly impossible to pull off any effect from this spell, even while soloing, unless you have carefully coordinated it, and even then there's a good chance of it being resisted. Plus, greater harmony already does this, so the effect is superfluous. Increase the damage of this spell (it's the highest level and best nuke you guys get, at least make it worthwhile), and give it a flat stun. It'll be a lot better for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make these three changes, and templars will be taking less damage, and will have buffs that better impact the group they are in. They will also have received a moderate dps upgrade, and by simply scaling up a couple of the effects from other buffs (eg holy redoubt), templars will be a better balanced class, and still the best healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center> </DIV>

[Gcha]

<P> </P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Blast2hell wrote:</P> <P>Let me some up this thread.</P> <P>Kendricke posts (any commentary of any sort)</P> <P>Usual kendricke haters appear (add kendricke is a fool commentary here)</P> <P>Other people post ignoring the haters and actually add something</P> <P>then some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like me posts and comments on the actions of others.</P> <P>I read a lot of the commentary on this forum, I even use to post my ideas a lot.....but so many people on here spend time doing personal attacks it's silly.  No wonder this is being nicknamed the viper's den.</P> <P>I personally don't read in here very much just because of all the pricks in here,  I wouldn't be surprised if Devs don't want to read this forum unless payed overtime to do it heh.</P> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote the responses which constitute hatred of Kendricke.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please idenfity whom in this thread you are calling "pricks".</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><BR> </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>Yet, not a day doesn't go by that I don't see demands that they be fired, demoted, or otherwise punished; that I don't see their intelligence called into question;</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote where this occurred in this thread or this forum today.</FONT></P> <P>that I don't hear their work ethic slandered;</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote where this occurred in this thread or this forum today.</FONT></P> <P>that I don't hear of at least one bodily threat being uttered against them.  </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote where this occurred in this thread or this forum today.</FONT></P> <P>If this were my team, I'd issue you a month's payment back, cancel your account, and wish you well with the competition.  </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote the portion of Magpie's post which you contend justifies you responding to him in this manner.<BR></FONT> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Edit: Don't bother reporting my post. I reported it myself to draw attention to what's going on here.  I will continue to do so until I am either banned or people are able to discuss matters here without this abuse.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gchang on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 PM</span>

[Magpie1]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P><FONT size=1>Between 5,000 and 50,000 posts are made on the forums daily.  That's not counting the Non-Gameplay Discussion forum which can add another 5-10,000 all by itself.  Should the developers read each and every posting to make sure they're not missing anything...or should they develop quick reading habits to weed through the majority of posts to quickly identify concerns and issues?<BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><FONT size=1>I was suggesting they need to have read the threads where templars have raised concerns over the direction our class has taken, irrespective of the tone or manner that those posts were written in. The issues are complex and emmotive. They are also not as straight forward as 'this is broken' or 'that is not working' and require some working through. Although there are many posts on these boards daily it does not take much effort to spot issues that are seriously causing concern - I certainly manage to spot such topics in my lunch break purely by the volume of posts or the number of similar threads. If they cannot do this and instead discard topics because there are a couple of abusive posts then I would suggest they need to employ individuals who can put up with argumentative or abusive posters and then report the salient information back to the devs. Such a solution would also mean that the devs could indeed spend more time developing and less time reading. Personally, I like to see information first hand, it tends to get diluted and distorted once you start utilising a third person to summarise that information.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P><FONT size=1>These are people we're talking about.  Not a faceless corporation here, but people.  Yet, not a day doesn't go by that I don't see demands that they be fired, demoted, or otherwise punished; that I don't see their intelligence called into question; that I don't hear their work ethic slandered; that I don't hear of at least one bodily threat being uttered against them.  If this were my team, I'd issue you a month's payment back, cancel your account, and wish you well with the competition.  Frankly, I'm absolutely astounded at the level of abuse we expect them to put up with while smiling, and then try to justify it as "their fault" when we're called on it. <BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1>I agree. Abuse and threats should not be tolerated at any time. Posting privileges should be revoked and accounts cancelled in these situations.</FONT><BR></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magpie1 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1>I was suggesting they need to have read the threads where templars have raised concerns over the direction our class has taken, irrespective of the tone or manner that those posts were written in. The issues are complex and emmotive. They are also not as straight forward as 'this is broken' or 'that is not working' and require some working through. Although there are many posts on these boards daily it does not take much effort to spot issues that are seriously causing concern - I certainly manage to spot such topics in my lunch break purely by the volume of posts or the number of similar threads. If they cannot do this and instead discard topics because there are a couple of abusive posts then I would suggest they need to employ individuals who can put up with argumentative or abusive posters and then report the salient information back to the devs. Such a solution would also mean that the devs could indeed spend more time developing and less time reading. Personally, I like to see information first hand, it tends to get diluted and distorted once you start utilising a third person to summarise that information.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm certain if an issue is so prevalent that it gains the attention of those who use abusive and assaulting tones, that it would also gain the attention of those who do not.  If a developer wants to find out true issues, then they never need step foot in an abusively toned thread to do so.</P> <P>With thousands of new posts daily, why muddle through the posts which concentrate on attacking individuals rather than focusing upon the problem?  It's not as if they don't also receive in-game bug reports, typo reports, and feedback as well.  It's certainly not as if they don't have their own ideas on what is right, correct?</P> <P>In any regards, I'm not a developer.  You'll need to speak to them in order to find out exactly why it is they do what they do.  All I can do is point out what they've clearly stated.  If that upsets you that they've said what they have, then that is certainly your right to hold such an opinion.  I personally feel differently about the subject, obviously.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Magpie1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=1>With thousands of new posts daily, why muddle through the posts which concentrate on attacking individuals rather than focusing upon the problem?  It's not as if they don't also receive in-game bug reports, typo reports, and feedback as well.  It's certainly not as if they don't have their own ideas on what is right, correct?</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=1>Absolutely. I am sure there is a myriad of information arriving into the SOE offices with regards to all aspects of the game and I am sure that you are correct that the devs do indeed have ideas of their own. As I said originally, my concern was that they are ignoring relevant information because of the manner in which it is posted. Because a post has an argumentative or abusive tone does not mean that it does not also contain salient and useful information. By ignoring posts because an aggressive tone has been adopted they are potentially missing such information, perhaps to the detriment of the game. Allowing personal feelings to become a deciding factor on what is, or is not relevant is, in my opinion, harmful to the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1> If that upsets you that they've said what they have, then that is certainly your right to hold such an opinion.  I personally feel differently about the subject, obviously.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1>Not upset, merely concerned.</FONT><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Magpie1 on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magpie1 wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=1>Absolutely. I am sure there is a myriad of information arriving into the SOE offices with regards to all aspects of the game and I am sure that you are correct that the devs do indeed have ideas of their own. As I said originally, my concern was that they are ignoring relevant information because of the manner in which it is posted. Because a post has an argumentative or abusive tone does not mean that it does not also contain salient and useful information. By ignoring posts because an aggressive tone has been adopted they are potentially missing such information, perhaps to the detriment of the game. Allowing personal feelings to become a deciding factor on what is, or is not relevant is, in my opinion, harmful to the game.</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Keep in mind that it's already against the game and forum rules of conduct to directly attack or threaten anyone - including the developers.  Should the developers start answering posts which violate the rules of conduct, what message does that send?  </P> <P>The developers have at least stated clearly that this is the stance they're adopting.  At least this allows individuals to choose whether or not to present the arguments in a constructive manner...as opposed to a manner by which the developers have stated will tend to receive no attention at all.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote the responses which constitute hatred of Kendricke.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please idenfity whom in this thread you are calling "pricks".</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><BR></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Gchang on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, I absolutely will not do that.  In doing that I would make myself as bad as the people I am referring to....so no.<BR>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please quote the responses which constitute hatred of Kendricke.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Please idenfity whom in this thread you are calling "pricks".</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><BR></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Gchang on <SPAN class=date_text>11-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, I absolutely will not do that.  In doing that I would make myself as bad as the people I am referring to....so no.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are as bad as the people you are accusing then.  :smileytongue:<BR>

[Blast2hell]

:smileyvery-happy:

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>And adding a smily face to the end doesn't really make the post "nice" or "cute" either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am personally getting sick of a certain couple of people on these boards following Kendricke around and launching personal attacks against him. I'm sorry, but when did this turn into a smear campaign? All I see is Kendricke posting his thoughts, and people rushing to the frontline to point fingers at him and call him names.</DIV>

[Sephraa]

<DIV>I am wondering just how many ways there are to debate the same ole same ole.</DIV>

[zorbdan]

<DIV>1. Pot, kettle. black</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. It's all been said and done before.</DIV>

[Magpie1]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=1>Keep in mind that it's already against the game and forum rules of conduct to directly attack or threaten anyone - including the developers.  Should the developers start answering posts which violate the rules of conduct, what message does that send?  </FONT></P><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=1>That stance is correct and I am not suggesting that they should reply to abusive or threatening posts. I am saying that posts that are not presented in a constructive manner may still contain important or useful information. By ignoring threads or posts which contain such information it may be detrimental to the game. No reply is required to act on useful suggestions contained within an otherwise abusive post - it can be done without any indication that the original poster has provided constructive input. Certainly abusive posts should not be encouraged.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT><BR> </DIV>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR> <DIV>And adding a smily face to the end doesn't really make the post "nice" or "cute" either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am personally getting sick of a certain couple of people on these boards following Kendricke around and launching personal attacks against him. I'm sorry, but when did this turn into a smear campaign? All I see is Kendricke posting his thoughts, and people rushing to the frontline to point fingers at him and call him names.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I added the smiley face (with the tongue).  Who are YOU talking about?  I'm getting sick of the generalizations around here.  If you want to pick a fight, say my name and I'll oblige you.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Kendricke, I suppose INDIRECT attacks and threats are ok, huh?  That's the problem with this forum.  A TON of clever indirect attacks followed up by direct attacks from the person who got the shot taken at them.  And going in game to tell on people to their guild leaders is a personal attack too, I hate to tell ya.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>wow, this thread has derailed into a barroom brawl...nice</DIV>

[Lydiae]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR> <DIV>wow, this thread has derailed into a barroom brawl...nice</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As usual.  This board is broken. :smileysad:</P> <P>I thought about a long thoughtful essay about why this problem exists but it would just get bedeviled in the details.  My bottom line is, IMHO, for the good of the class, the best thing for it is for Kendrike to lay off posting for a while, and all the people who feel the need to respond to him do so as well.  Then maybe we'll get the real thoughts of the Templar community about something other than Kendrike.</P>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lydiaele wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR> <DIV>wow, this thread has derailed into a barroom brawl...nice</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As usual.  This board is broken. :smileysad:</P> <P>I thought about a long thoughtful essay about why this problem exists but it would just get bedeviled in the details.  My bottom line is, IMHO, for the good of the class, the best thing for it is for Kendrike to lay off posting for a while, and all the people who feel the need to respond to him do so as well.  Then maybe we'll get the real thoughts of the Templar community about something other than Kendrike.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think when Kendricke implies how he knows the developers so personally in all that raving he does, it makes Caethre nuts because she feels if that's true, he'll get what he wants instead of what the other half of this forum wants.  Heck, he's even said he's Blackguard in one post.  (I thought that was against the rules, btw.)  In other posts he's dreaming about having lunch with the devs.  It's just all too weird.  He's not interested in a review of our spell-line, but at best, minor tweaks to timers to what we have already, nothing major and he lists nothing specific.  He also goes so far as to say our requests are unreasonable and because of that, it's highly unlikely we'll see them.  So basically, he's saying, give it up.  As you can see, he caught a few with the essay bait he threw out.  Not Caethre though, she didn't bite.</P> <P>She responded as he knew she would.  Now he sits back and revels in the battle over it being personal.</P> <P>It's not personal, it's a difference in what templars want done.  He doesn't want much done and I wouldn't doubt it if reverts back to wanting nothing done as he did originally.  This is called back pedalling.</P><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>She responded as he knew she would.  Now he sits back and revels in the battle over it being personal.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do you really spend time trying to determine what I'm thinking within my own mind about how others think of me?</P> <P>Look, I recognize and realize that some of what I say is not universally liked, enjoyed, or agreed with.  However, for some time now, there's been a small crew of Templars who seem to feel that I'm a threat to the well-being of Templars.  </P> <P>I apologize to those Templars who feel I'm attempting to speak for them that do not wish me speaking for them.  I speak only for myself and my guild.  I speak only from my own observations and experiences.  I speak only for my own perspective.  I do not speak for the Templar community.  </P> <P>If you do not like what I'm saying, then with respect, I ask that you simply ignore it, refute it, or provide an opposing viewpoint.  Attacks on my person , my possible motives, and my right to speak will not be responded to typically.  </P> <P> </P>

[Takeo1]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>She responded as he knew she would.  Now he sits back and revels in the battle over it being personal.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do you really spend time trying to determine what I'm thinking within my own mind about how others think of me?</P> <P>Look, I recognize and realize that some of what I say is not universally liked, enjoyed, or agreed with.  However, for some time now, there's been a small crew of Templars who seem to feel that I'm a threat to the well-being of Templars.  </P> <P>I apologize to those Templars who feel I'm attempting to speak for them that do not wish me speaking for them.  I speak only for myself and my guild.  I speak only from my own observations and experiences.  I speak only for my own perspective.  I do not speak for the Templar community.  </P> <P>If you do not like what I'm saying, then with respect, I ask that you simply ignore it, refute it, or provide an opposing viewpoint.  Attacks on my person , my possible motives, and my right to speak will not be responded to typically.  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I notice you don't address what I've seen that you do, so I'll keep it short.</P> <P>You're the one who throws out the innuendos about speaking with the devs personally, having items in his name and yadda, yadda.  Now that a dev posts here, you felt the need to chime in with a post that basically says, "don't expect much more then the rez and bug fix".  Did you really expect that post to be welcomed at a time when they saw Silverfox's attention? Why don't you just walk over with a huge pin and pop the balloon they're high on now that they have a dev's attention.  You know, if there is any truth to your post, you should leave that to Silverfox to say.  It's really not a matter for anyone to be speculating on but him.  When you did just that, did you really think you weren't starting another one of your debates?  Geez, I could see it a mile away before I read anything under yours. </P> <P>Every disagreement is not about YOU.  It's about disagreeing with what you have said.  You, who loves debates and arguing so much should see that.  Rest assured, no one can hit you with a bat even if they're smashing their monitor that blinks your name on it.  It can't hurt you.  Get some offline time.  This is apparently getting to you and I do say that constructively.  I've learned to live with you and your friend's punches, so should you do the same.</P> <DIV>Perhaps if you made a post of your own specifically describing what you personally feel is wrong with Templars, which I haven't seen myself, you would appear more credible than just the one here to challenge every suggestion ever made.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, I have no idea what possessed you to make a post declaring that it's unlikely we would see much more then what we have seen so far.  It's a taunt skill max'd in all it's glory and you've managed to attract a few mobs, that's for sure.  Just don't complain so much.  You did after all, taunt them here.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>Well, that's certainly an interesting opinion you have.  Of course, I disagree with it.  However, it's certainly an opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>She responded as he knew she would.  Now he sits back and revels in the battle over it being personal.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do you really spend time trying to determine what I'm thinking within my own mind about how others think of me?</P> <P>Look, I recognize and realize that some of what I say is not universally liked, enjoyed, or agreed with.  However, for some time now, there's been a small crew of Templars who seem to feel that I'm a threat to the well-being of Templars.  </P> <P>I apologize to those Templars who feel I'm attempting to speak for them that do not wish me speaking for them.  I speak only for myself and my guild.  I speak only from my own observations and experiences.  I speak only for my own perspective.  I do not speak for the Templar community.  </P> <P>If you do not like what I'm saying, then with respect, I ask that you simply ignore it, refute it, or provide an opposing viewpoint.  Attacks on my person , my possible motives, and my right to speak will not be responded to typically.  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I notice you don't address what I've seen that you do, so I'll keep it short.</P> <P>You're the one who throws out the innuendos about speaking with the devs personally, having items in his name and yadda, yadda.  Now that a dev posts here, you felt the need to chime in with a post that basically says, "don't expect much more then the rez and bug fix".  Did you really expect that post to be welcomed at a time when they saw Silverfox's attention? Why don't you just walk over with a huge pin and pop the balloon they're high on now that they have a dev's attention.  You know, if there is any truth to your post, you should leave that to Silverfox to say.  It's really not a matter for anyone to be speculating on but him.  When you did just that, did you really think you weren't starting another one of your debates?  Geez, I could see it a mile away before I read anything under yours. </P> <P>Every disagreement is not about YOU.  It's about disagreeing with what you have said.  You, who loves debates and arguing so much should see that.  Rest assured, no one can hit you with a bat even if they're smashing their monitor that blinks your name on it.  It can't hurt you.  Get some offline time.  This is apparently getting to you and I do say that constructively.  I've learned to live with you and your friend's punches, so should you do the same.</P> <DIV>Perhaps if you made a post of your own specifically describing what you personally feel is wrong with Templars, which I haven't seen myself, you would appear more credible than just the one here to challenge every suggestion ever made.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, I have no idea what possessed you to make a post declaring that it's unlikely we would see much more then what we have seen so far.  It's a taunt skill max'd in all it's glory and you've managed to attract a few mobs, that's for sure.  Just don't complain so much.  You did after all, taunt them here.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I wholehartedly agree with you Kaylena. Kendricke, I have yet to see what you have to gain from provoking people. Intentionally flaming threads with decent discourse. Ignoring simple points. Strawmen arguments. In fact if I did not know better I would say you are either, a. paid to cause chaos in the Templar forums, or B. a member of another class wanting to hold Templars down.</P> <P>The few times you do come up with a good post it is drowned out by all of the "noise" posts you make. It is hard to see your point when you move everywhere. Stay on topic. </P> <P>Now I guess my friend I have one question left for you in 2 parts. A. Do you see an imbalance among healers? and if the answer is yes b. What would you like done to correct said imbalance?</P>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>Cowdenicus,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your thoughts on what changes you think we're most likely to see.  I thought it was a fairly thought out response to my original post.  Thank you for staying on topic.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(As a side note, I think you're right that I fall off topic a bit too much.  I'll try to work on that.)</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>Cowdenicus,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your thoughts on what changes you think we're most likely to see.  I thought it was a fairly thought out response to my original post.  Thank you for staying on topic.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(As a side note, I think you're right that I fall off topic a bit too much.  I'll try to work on that.)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Touche' <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On edit: thanks for respond ing to my original post in this thread. Oh Nevermind you did not.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cowdenicus on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Kendricke wrote: <p>I apologize to those Templars who feel I'm attempting to speak for them that do not wish me speaking for them.  I speak only for myself and my guild.  I speak only from my own observations and experiences.  I speak only for my own perspective.  I do not speak for the Templar community.  </p><hr></blockquote>Ok, then go away so we can get our class fixed.</span><div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<P>man you kendricke haters drive me nuts......I can easily read this bored, and disagree with an idea kendricke has without jumping the bandwagon of attacking him.  You make yourselves look like trolls, and your reasons behind why you don't like him are the stuff of elementary school playgrounds.     </P> <P>Don't even think I always agree with kendricke...in regards to the OP, i see no reason why wisdom can't have a minor effect on giving healing bonuses.  Just making your spells a little more powerful in a small window.....basically I have an adept 3, but my wisdom is high enough that my adept 3 acts like a master 1.   or maybe even somewhere between the two.   So I wouldn't say it's unlikely to let wisdom affect the power of heals, I would say nobody has thought of a way to put it into effect in moderation.</P> <P> </P> <P>So there's my thought on the widom thing.  And to all you people that spend your huge posts attacking kendricke, I think you people are the cancer in this templar forum.  And the reason other templars don't even want to read this forum anymore.  I know it's the reason i quit reading the templar boards for awhile....and now I wish i stayed away from the sick twisted trolls in here.</P> <p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:34 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blast2hell wrote:<div></div><p>So there's my thought on the widom thing.  And to all you people that spend your huge posts attacking kendricke, I think you people are the cancer in this templar forum.  And the reason other templars don't even want to read this forum anymore.  I know it's the reason i quit reading the templar boards for awhile....and now I wish i stayed away from the sick twisted trolls in here.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class="date_text">11-24-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:34 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Looks like you fit right in.</span><div></div>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I added the smiley face (with the tongue).  Who are YOU talking about?  I'm getting sick of the generalizations around here.  If you want to pick a fight, say my name and I'll oblige you.<BR><BR>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:17 PM</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not going to pick a fight over a message board. Fighting is immature and inappropriate in this environment. I would like to discuss the Templar class in a thread for once without seeing you, Caethre, and a few other people launch personal attacks against a player attempting to incite a discussion about our class. It looks like you have your own personal agenda here to make Kendricke out to be "evil." I don't appreciate it, and I'm sure others don't either. You derail nearly every thread that he posts in just trying to start arguments? Why? What purpose does it serve other than to hinder the conversation?</P> <P>If anyone is attempting to stop the Templar cries for help, it's those select people who post and derail the threads with personal attacks towards a man they'll probably never meet outside of these forums.</P> <P>I look forward to a thread when we won't have to deal with this childish behavior. Until then, perhaps my time would best be spent perusing other Templar forums on websites that allow the ignore function.</P>

[ginfress]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I added the smiley face (with the tongue).  Who are YOU talking about?  I'm getting sick of the generalizations around here.  If you want to pick a fight, say my name and I'll oblige you.<BR><BR>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:17 PM</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not going to pick a fight over a message board. Fighting is immature and inappropriate in this environment. I would like to discuss the Templar class in a thread for once without seeing you, Caethre, and a few other people launch personal attacks against a player attempting to incite a discussion about our class. It looks like you have your own personal agenda here to make Kendricke out to be "evil." I don't appreciate it, and I'm sure others don't either. You derail nearly every thread that he posts in just trying to start arguments? Why? What purpose does it serve other than to hinder the conversation?</P> <P>If anyone is attempting to stop the Templar cries for help, it's those select people who post and derail the threads with personal attacks towards a man they'll probably never meet outside of these forums.</P> <P>I look forward to a thread when we won't have to deal with this childish behavior. Until then, perhaps my time would best be spent perusing other Templar forums on websites that allow the ignore function.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dont you worry. Knowing the history there is already a PM towards a mod crying that those mean guys are out to get him again. Mod will come, posts disappear, people banned and a PM back to the guy with the message that its safe to play outside again. Rinse/repeat until they realise they were after the wrong people and helping the wrong guy.</P> <P>And in case i get a PM back what i am doing on the templar board, am reading them for some time now since my wife plays a templer, almost 47 and she doesnt have the time or patience to dig into this pile of poo.</P> <P>And as last, after rereading this thread remove Caethre from your hate list since i think she wrote a great post without any attacks on anyone.</P><p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 PM</span>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I would like to discuss the Templar class in a thread for once without seeing you, Caethre, and a few other people launch personal attacks against a player attempting to incite a discussion about our class.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh my, what a "interesting" statement.</P> <P>For a start, none of my post above contains personal attacks of any kind. But I will refer this thread to Raijinn, and ask him to view it as a neutral moderator to check if he agrees. I suspect that he may lock the entire thread however, as I believe it was likely to cause an argument from the start.</P> <P>I agree with one point you make - that there is no place for vulgar or demeaning personal attacks or flames on this message board.</P> <P>However, simply disagreeing with just about everything another person ever says, is not in of itself a "personal attack". If you think so, surely then, you just launched a totally unprovoked personal attack on me, by falsely accusing me of a motive I do not have.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>I have one agenda, and it is very simple. The Templar class is broken, and for the playstyle I play, it is badly broken, to the point that it is almost not worth playing, and I want to see this addressed. I loved the class before LU13, but now Templars are so weak in small groups compared to other classes, that I cannot justify asking friends to take an XP penalty by lowering themselves to group with a Templar, so I feel forced to level up a Fury to be able to contribute properly. I believe this is wrong, wrong, wrong, and needs correction, and urgently.</FONT></P> <P>The evidence for my statement is all around you, if you care to look. Huge numbers of people do not all get upset over nothing, and there are enough facts on these boards alone, never mind in game, to make the above observation <EM>manifest fact</EM>, not merely one Templar's opinion. Ultimately however, you may (like Kendricke) disagree with me, but be aware, if you choose to, I will consider you to be "wrong" in an absolute sense, just as I believe he is "wrong". Believing that is NOT a personal attack, and neither is posting it.</P> <P>A very small number of the people who do not play the playstyles that are most badly hurt by the current state of affairs, and who do not care about or even respect players who play those playstyles, are ignoring the mass of evidence, the huge quantiity of passionately unhappy people, and the large number of posts about quitting, making alts, etc, and are basically pushing the "well I'm alright, so you lot can shut up and stop whining" message in our faces. I am sorry, that is how I read his opening post.</P> <P>No, his post was not a personal attack on me or anyone else. But it was inflamatory in this situation, and I believe he knew that before he posted it, and did it anyway.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And you think THAT is "inciting a discussion"? I think, it is close to deliberately inciting a flamewar.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[mc10]

<P>thanks again Caethre for your sound thoughts, i agree with how you see the templar.</P> <P>We need big changes not little one's.</P> <P>We need balance.</P> <P>I have waited long enough for balance so have just rolled a driud...lvl 18 now....to be fury.....only problem is so many fury's running around.....i wander why?</P> <P>Lets hope the templars get sorted.</P>

[Takeo1]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I added the smiley face (with the tongue).  Who are YOU talking about?  I'm getting sick of the generalizations around here.  If you want to pick a fight, say my name and I'll oblige you.<BR><BR>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:17 PM</SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not going to pick a fight over a message board. Fighting is immature and inappropriate in this environment. I would like to discuss the Templar class in a thread for once without seeing you, Caethre, and a few other people launch personal attacks against a player attempting to incite a discussion about our class. It looks like you have your own personal agenda here to make Kendricke out to be "evil." I don't appreciate it, and I'm sure others don't either. You derail nearly every thread that he posts in just trying to start arguments? Why? What purpose does it serve other than to hinder the conversation?</P> <P>If anyone is attempting to stop the Templar cries for help, it's those select people who post and derail the threads with personal attacks towards a man they'll probably never meet outside of these forums.</P> <P>I look forward to a thread when we won't have to deal with this childish behavior. Until then, perhaps my time would best be spent perusing other Templar forums on websites that allow the ignore function.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Funny how only a few short weeks ago you came in here agreeing with the same stance as Caethre and now that you've suddenly had yourself enlightened by Kendricke, everyone who disagrees with him is "immature" and out to make him appear "evil".  Talk about derailing threads, you've done just that.  You can accuse anyone who disagrees with you now with whatever stupid and petty accusations you want, but the bottom line is, to me, you look pretty dumb after all the complaining you've done yourself.  What is immature is your inability to judge a difference of opinion for what it is and slam out choice jabs of your own while complaining about same.  That's a holier then thou attitude that doesn't impress me.  Neither does your wishy-washy contribution to this forum since you obviously can't make up your mind what you want done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope I have obliged you as you wished before this post gets deleted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok Raijinn.. do your stuff.  I just wasn't going to let her get away with misrepresenting my personal "agenda", as if I even have one.  I don't run around defending every Caethre post I see and you know that.  I let whomever is arguing a point, argue it themselves.  I don't rush in and call Kendricke immature and evil and cheer on Cow, Caethre, Tim, KoF, Gchang, et al.  I don't care if she now decides to agree with Kendricke, but she didn't have to troll in and lie about what was said either.</DIV>

[Kayle]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[rtoub]

<P>Bury the hatchet people, you are making the forums here as broken as the class.  Hard to bother reading when every post turns into bickering. </P> <P>This started by pointing out that we need to be realistic and although many of the ideas would work they have a snowballs chance in hell of being implemented.  It would be more worth our time to come up with ideas that can be implmented rather than just bashing each other.  That has been my biggest problem with most of the discussion, most of the ideas will not fit into the general system and scheme of the game.  SOE will not make a huge change to the game unless they percieve something is very wrong with the game.  Although people will disagree with me I don't see our class as being that broken.  It isn't right and needs a lot of improvement but revamping the class isn't needed.</P> <P>There seems to be a large amount of hatred between people, and no attempt at forgiveness.  I think most of the people involved in the bashing have made mistakes and bad choices in the past.  They also however have valuable input into the class and good ideas.  Personality conflicts are making things worse but in the end we are all just different people with different backgrounds.  Some of us need learn to not react at every little thing.</P>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtoub wrote:<BR> <P>Bury the hatchet people, you are making the forums here as broken as the class.  Hard to bother reading when every post turns into bickering. </P> <P>This started by pointing out that we need to be realistic and although many of the ideas would work they have a snowballs chance in hell of being implemented.  It would be more worth our time to come up with ideas that can be implmented rather than just bashing each other.  That has been my biggest problem with most of the discussion, most of the ideas will not fit into the general system and scheme of the game.  SOE will not make a huge change to the game unless they percieve something is very wrong with the game.  Although people will disagree with me I don't see our class as being that broken.  It isn't right and needs a lot of improvement but revamping the class isn't needed.</P> <P>There seems to be a large amount of hatred between people, and no attempt at forgiveness.  I think most of the people involved in the bashing have made mistakes and bad choices in the past.  They also however have valuable input into the class and good ideas.  Personality conflicts are making things worse but in the end we are all just different people with different backgrounds.  Some of us need learn to not react at every little thing.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Always liked the Cranberries - though Bury the Hatchet wasnt my favorite...</P> <P> </P> <P>"Do ya have to, do ya have to, do ya have to let it linger?"</P> <P> </P> <P>I am not thinking proc-less "utility" heals, a return of parry for all priests, a small bump to avoidance(5-10%), and maybe a fluff form(I like would something heavenly) with Prae is unrealistic. Dont see anything particularly game-shattering in that, if you do, spot me the information. Hell - I wanna know ya know? I am not even asking for +dps, now call me strange, but I just wanna heal, and look good while I am doing it! Haha!</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P>Card-carrying Member of the "Templars need some work and NOW" Club</P> <P>Waiting for the "Templars are Fine" Club to be spot on.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Andu]

<P>I could name 5 people on this board from the Templar's are all ok brigade, who, if banned form these forums, would immediately stop the attacks, bickering, arguing and needless threads.</P> <P>I could not however do this for the Templars are broken brigade. Why? Because there are far too many of them.</P> <P>It is high time that those few who consider the class to be working made their point and then shut-up, not because their point is invalid, but because through sheer volume of posting they are giving the incorrect impression that they speak for the majority.</P> <p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>11-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:02 AM</span>

[Blast2hell]

It's ok, I'm going to strive not to comment on the things people do in this forum.  And put forth effort to just reply to the actual information.  Practice what I preach and all.   I just want to contribute to the templar board, but the commentary I keep seeing drives me away.  So in the future i will do my best to ignore the bashings and just comment on the details.

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <P>I could name 5 people on this board from the Templar's are all ok brigade, who, if banned form these forums, would immediately stop the attacks, bickering, arguing and needless threads.</P> <P>I could not however do this for the Templars are broken brigade. Why? Because there are far too many of them.</P> <P>It is high time that those few who consider the class to be working made their point and then shut-up, not because their point is invalid, but because through sheer volume of posting they are giving the incorrect impression that they speak for the majority.</P> <P>Message Edited by Anduri on <SPAN class=date_text>11-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heh. You can't get someone banned for having a different opinion than yourself. That would make the boards way too one-sided now wouldn't it? Doesn't make for very interesting conversation.<BR>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Folks I'm shutting this thread down as it's turned into a flame thread which isn't called for. We can all talk like civil people and discuss things without attacking each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>