A Truce among Templars.

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>I am calling for a truce between all Templars so that we may work on all of the issues facing us as a class. Let things in the past remain there and let us move forward UNITED for the hard work that lies ahead of making Templars the master race again (equally of course with other healers).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let us all come together in solidarity, let us come up with a plan. Let us work together. (and lets smite some furies while we are at it. lol) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV>

[Andu]

I appreciate the sentiment Cowdenicus but unfortunately I think there is more bitterness in this forum now than there is between any of the classes. Kaylena and Kendricke being just an example. It's really sad that we have ended up like this but with the lack of any feedback whatsoever by the Devs it was inevitable that we would end up turning on ourselves. I suspect that they are loving it and enjoy lurking, watching us beat each other up. At least I like to think that, the idea that they are not even aware we feel like this fills me with despair. <div></div>

[Kayle]

<P>Nah, I'm not bitter.  I stated my opinion on the situation from the start.  Kendricke doesn't intimidate me no matter how hard he tries.  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>The difference between us is, I've never changed my opinion while he has vacillated back and forth from the beginning.  I don't think this is a debatable issue first off, but I am certainly not going to debate something with someone who doesn't seem to know what side of the fence he's sitting on.  It's futile.  It makes as much sense as talking to politicians.  :smileywink:</P> <P>While SoE gets their game together, I'll simply just go have some fun.. which was the reason WHY I came online to play a MMORG.  I'm not going to play board spokesperson because I already know for a fact that SoE knows what the issues are.  According to the response I was given.. they are "aware of the problems and concerns" and they are "working on it".</P>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>I dont care if we argue, debate, call each other names, or if you say that your wife's apple pie tastes better than mine, what-have-you...</P> <P> </P> <P>As long as they give me my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Templar back - it has been shown a gazillion times ( yes, thats exaggerated so what?) [Removed for Content] is wrong with the class - AGAIN soloing dps, armour issues, parry for all priests, "you just hit the lotto here is a proc!" heals, and just an all around feeling that you are busting your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and going nowhere...</P> <P> </P> <P>Wow - dunno where the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that came from...but it feels good! Anywho....so enjoy! Its ALWAYS a good read...</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am calling for a truce between all Templars so that we may work on all of the issues facing us as a class. Let things in the past remain there and let us move forward UNITED for the hard work that lies ahead of making Templars the master race again (equally of course with other healers).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let us all come together in solidarity, let us come up with a plan. Let us work together. (and lets smite some furies while we are at it. lol) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I wish I had seen this before I posted my other response to you.   I'm all about getting us looked at and more importantly all about getting people to sit down and be rational.    Everybody is upset about something and its been said 1000 times.  We can't solo, we don't have DPS, we're no good on raids, reverence isn't useful, furies are better, etc...  There are no new complaints left for anyone to use as far as I can see.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Instead of complaining I think it'd be a lot more productive for us to focus on suggestions and changes we'd like to see.   Many of us play our Templars differently and its important that we keep that in mind when looking at peoples suggestions (myself included since I'm not really a raider).  I'm going to do my best to tone back my sarcasm (which is no small feat) and stay as civil as I possibly can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly don't see us getting "everyone" together on ideas just based on the sheer number of ideas and expectations we have but my hope is we can at least tone things down in here enough to make a Dev comfortable to post.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I honestly don't see us getting "everyone" together on ideas just based on the sheer number of ideas and expectations we have but my hope is we can at least tone things down in here enough to make a Dev comfortable to post.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This bore repeating.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 AM</span>

[Stjarna Kvar]

It has been my experience as a developer (not for a mmorpg, but in the corporate world none-the-less) that it doesn't matter how many times a customer suggests how to fix a problem, I am going to implement a fix to the problem in a manner that is in line with the "vision" of the application, and in such a way as to provide the most impact for the least amount of effort. Sometimes I will use a solution that a customer suggests, sometimes I wont. But one thing I never do is put up with a customer who is being downright mean to me. I have better things to do--like read the templar forums, or pick my nose. When customers are together on an issue, agree to the actual cause, and present their problem to me in a respectful and pleasant way... I break my back to help them out. They may not get the solution they present. As a matter of fact, i usually push back on my customers with "don't provide me with your solution, tell me your problem, I'll provide the solution." The push back is not because I don't value their input, its because customers tend to have tunnel vision and provide only the information they want to present their case.I--as a developer--have to spend the time, gathering the data that indicates there is a problem, then make the changes necessary to fix that problem, if there is one. And depending on the software life cycle, addressing a difficult problem where a solution could break the usability of another department or set of customers, it may take a long time to get the fix through the SLC.I understand that my experience with software development is from a developers standpoint, and it is hard for customers to understand the effort even the most simple looking change can require (I always laugh when a non-coder says "that's a five minute fix").So, in the end--Yes, lets get together! Lets not throw personal attacks around. Lets come up with definative proof that there is a problem. Lets stand up and say, please, look at our class--I feel like I'm not as useful in a group/solo as I was before. But lets not fall into the vitriolic "My Class Sux so Hardcore" fighting that gets other classes believing that we are worthless and of no real consequence in a group--because we do have value.WE DO HAVE VALUE./off topicI heard a great message yesterday. Develop an Attitude of Gratitude! Don't be angry because your neighbor has a better car/house/tv than you. Be glad that you have a car/house/tv. Don't be angry because you don't have money today. Be happy because you had money yesterday, and know you'll have money tomorrow. Be grateful for what you have, and thankful that you know better things are coming./on topicGreat post Cow. I'm with ya, and glad to see some of the angry people gaining a semblance of reasonability.

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I honestly don't see us getting "everyone" together on ideas just based on the sheer number of ideas and expectations we have but my hope is we can at least tone things down in here enough to make a Dev comfortable to post.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I believe this is the unfortunate reality.  The simple reality is that templars want different things.  Some want more healing, some want different healing (me), some want more DPS, and some want more utility (also me).  This isn't brain surgery - those ARE the major areas that people complain about.  Regardless of the constant noise, distraction, and confrontation caused by one person in these forums, people still aren't going to agree (although I continue to appeal to Raijiin to put the clamps on what goes on here so that this can be a pleasant forum to frequent and so that people (or devs) who want to review the areas being discussed can do so without having to wade through endless patronizing antagonistic drivel).</P> <P>If the devs don't know by now what the categories of discontent are, they aren't paying attention.  I will focus on doing my job and assume that they can do theirs, and thus, I conclude that by now they do know.  They're simply going to have to make the best call they can and see if it helps.  Obviously, there is a lot of dissatisfaction.  Personally, I figure that I am not likely to get precisely what I want, but maybe if there is some improvement in the class it will be enough to improve my playing experience overall and make my dissatisfactions seem less significant.</P> <P>Or they can do nothing, in which case, we'll each have to make our individual decisions on the matter.  They're never going to tell you that they don't plan to do anything, people.  Games devs never do that.  They know full well that saying such a thing forces people to make the decisions, whereas, if they say nothing, hope continues.  Personally, my string is running out (not just due to templar issues).  Someone who shall remain unnamed =) has persuaded me to install the WOW trial (god it hurt to even type that lol).  I hate myself already <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , but, heck, one way or another I will find the best way to entertain myself =)<BR></P>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Radar-X wrote: <div></div> <div>I honestly don't see us getting "everyone" together on ideas just based on the sheer number of ideas and expectations we have but my hope is we can at least tone things down in here enough to make a Dev comfortable to post.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This bore repeating. </p> <p> Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class="date_text">11-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sure it does.  I think it is also telling that this board is in the flavor of "extra-flamey." Some people are pretty upset. The developers can dismiss it as noise if they wish, but it could be the symptom of a real problem. One, I hope that they see fit to address.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P>Why is the assumption that silence indicates ignorance?  </P> <P>Just because they aren't posting here doesn't mean they aren't aware of the issues.  It simply means we're not aware they're aware.  </P> <P>We all want more communications.  However, getting angry and insulting isn't exactly going to create an atmosphere that's likely to entice developer commentary.  What if they did suddenly post in an angry post?  What's the message that sends?  That the best way to get developer response is by posting angry posts and insulting them?  If you were them would you want that to be the message you sent?  I wouldn't.</P> <P>I've personally be derided as a "fanboi", an "apologist", as a spokesperson "wannabe", as "damage control", and as on SOE's payroll.  I'm not even a developer.  Imagine if an actual developer posted here saying that they're "looking into the issue".  Does anyone really think that's going to be universally accepted as an end-all/be-all?  Of course it won't.  Even if they posted a specific plan they wanted, is anyone convinced it will be generally accepted as good?</P> <P>Developer postings in emotionally charged areas of discussion are rarely accepted as positive by the aforementioned emotionally charged community in question.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nari]

I hope you weren't speaking to me. (Channeling Kendricke) I never said that they were ignorant of the problem.  Look through all of my posts and tell me where I said that. *nudges Kendricke* just teasin'. I feel that they might be apathetic toward the massive wank that is going on here. I don't think that templars make up enough of the population as a whole (look at the numbers on the server populations) to really hurt anyone if everyone stopped playing them.  (I can't even picture that happening, because there will always be one.) Just like the state of this country, whether you are happy about the current administration or not, it seems that people feel strongly about it one way or the other.  Politics could become very interesting in the coming years. I kinda see this templar thing the same way.  Sony was able to generate some buzz by making such a change.  I am waiting to see what they do with it. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:I hope you weren't speaking to me. (Channeling Kendricke) I never said that they were ignorant of the problem.  Look through all of my posts and tell me where I said that. *nudges Kendricke* just teasin'. I feel that they might be apathetic toward the massive wank that is going on here. I don't think that templars make up enough of the population as a whole (look at the numbers on the server populations) to really hurt anyone if everyone stopped playing them.  (I can't even picture that happening, because there will always be one.) Just like the state of this country, whether you are happy about the current administration or not, it seems that people feel strongly about it one way or the other.  Politics could become very interesting in the coming years. I kinda see this templar thing the same way.  Sony was able to generate some buzz by making such a change.  I am waiting to see what they do with it. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well you can look at it this way..... Screaming, yelling, and getting upset hasn't changed anything has it?  Fighting with each other hasn't gotten anything done has it?  Lets try giving something else a try.   No they aren't ignoring us and I'm sure there are some changes in the works but it makes getting those changes in place harder when we are saying 10 different things to them.</span><div></div>

[Reav]

I'm all for a truce. I actually stopped coming in here because I was tired of all the fighting. In fact, I made an alt because I felt ashamed to be a Templar for the simple fact that everyone in game knows how childish the Templar boards have gotten. If I may make a suggestion, how about someone who frequently posts on here starting a thread like our old wish list? That did wonders and we all know that the devs looked at it. That should be our #1 priority. Maybe make a Thread for the list itself and a seperate thread for people to list things and debate what should go on it. Instead of attacking each other, try to work together and things will get done. We are Templars, children of light and bringers of life. Let us show that we have the hearts we are suppose to and work together.

[Nari]

BTW: Radar-X, I wasn't really arguing for more flaming.  (I do enjoy it when you get your dander up, but we have NGD for that.) I don't care so much about peace, but I don't really fight with anyone here anyway. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:BTW: Radar-X, I wasn't really arguing for more flaming.  (I do enjoy it when you get your dander up, but we have NGD for that.) I don't care so much about peace, but I don't really fight with anyone here anyway. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh I know.   NGD has its place and that was part of my problem here because I'm used to that area.  I can admit I went a little far sometimes and I'd really like to see things progress in here if possible. To the other poster wanting a wishlist?  You've got to find someone that everyone will agree with.   We've already got like 3 threads out there.   Good luck.</span><div></div>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Well you can look at it this way..... Screaming, yelling, and getting upset hasn't changed anything has it?  Fighting with each other hasn't gotten anything done has it?  Lets try giving something else a try.   No they aren't ignoring us and I'm sure there are some changes in the works but it makes getting those changes in place harder when we are saying 10 different things to them.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I honestly don't see all this screaming and yelling (except when people get tired of being provoked by one person).  Oh sure, occasionally I see some poor frustrated guy pop in here and vent a bit.  I can't see anything wrong with that.  He's paid his nickel too.  I almost popped into another section the other night to vent about poofing mobs, something which drives me insane =)  Then I figured, oh, [Removed for Content], they know about it already and don't seem very inclined to fix it so why bother.  To this very day I can log into Oasis in EQ1 and watch crocs poof across the zone from the beach, and that's 6.5 years later (not counting beta, lol), so I guess poofing mobs are not a priority item.  In any event, if the SOE people can't deal with a little venting, they're in the wrong business.</P> <P>What I see is one person constantly trying to drown everyone else out and make it appear that he is the only person who is capable of expressing a thought in a productive manner.  What needs to be stopped in this forum is this constant distraction from and obfuscation of the issues.  As far as I can see that's the greatest source of frustration for a lot of people who'd like to participate in the discussion.  And in my view they mostly seem like nice normal people who are perfectly capable of expressing their thoughts in a useful manner.  I only see one person to whom the fight in this forum seems to be the game ... for everyone else, the issue seems to be the class.   Virtually every time you see a "fight" here, the same person is in the middle of it.  You'd think this would start raising questions in people's minds <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>As far as agreeing, how do we agree when we don't agree =)  I listed the major areas of dissatisfaction.  I think that covers it.  People have beat all of them to death.  The major debate has been going on since day one of fantasy mmorpgs ... some people want battle clerics and some people want pure healers.  'Twas ever thus.  As I see it the die has been cast.  The devs can do something ... or not.  Maybe I will be around to see it ... maybe I won't =)<BR></P>

[Wossname]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gchang wrote: <p>What I see is one person constantly trying to drown everyone else out and make it appear that he is the only person who is capable of expressing a thought in a productive manner.  What needs to be stopped in this forum is this constant distraction from and obfuscation of the issues.  As far as I can see that's the greatest source of frustration for a lot of people who'd like to participate in the discussion.  And in my view they mostly seem like nice normal people who are perfectly capable of expressing their thoughts in a useful manner.  I only see one person to whom the fight in this forum seems to be the game ... for everyone else, the issue seems to be the class.   Virtually every time you see a "fight" here, the same person is in the middle of it.  You'd think this would start raising questions in people's minds <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I see the same thing. The best thing this forum could do is to ignore this one person and get on with the debate ourselves. Don't dignify any of their posts with a response. I know I silently groan when I see that name appear in a thread.</span><div></div>

[Kitten]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <P>What I see is one person constantly trying to drown everyone else out and make it appear that he is the only person who is capable of expressing a thought in a productive manner.  What needs to be stopped in this forum is this constant distraction from and obfuscation of the issues.  As far as I can see that's the greatest source of frustration for a lot of people who'd like to participate in the discussion.  And in my view they mostly seem like nice normal people who are perfectly capable of expressing their thoughts in a useful manner.  I only see one person to whom the fight in this forum seems to be the game ... for everyone else, the issue seems to be the class.   Virtually every time you see a "fight" here, the same person is in the middle of it.  You'd think this would start raising questions in people's minds <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>This bore repeating.</P> <P> </P> <P>Voss</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gchang wrote <p>I honestly don't see all this screaming and yelling (except when people get tired of being provoked by one person).  Oh sure, occasionally I see some poor frustrated guy pop in here and vent a bit.  I can't see anything wrong with that.  He's paid his nickel too. </p> <p>{snip} </p> <p>What I see is one person constantly trying to drown everyone else out and make it appear that he is the only person who is capable of expressing a thought in a productive manner.  What needs to be stopped in this forum is this constant distraction from and obfuscation of the issues.  As far as I can see that's the greatest source of frustration for a lot of people who'd like to participate in the discussion.  And in my view they mostly seem like nice normal people who are perfectly capable of expressing their thoughts in a useful manner.  I only see one person to whom the fight in this forum seems to be the game ... for everyone else, the issue seems to be the class.   Virtually every time you see a "fight" here, the same person is in the middle of it.  You'd think this would start raising questions in people's minds <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>This is worthy of repeating. And as I've said before, I really don't see how it's too much to ask that a higher up stop by and drop a small note to give people an idea if they're looking at things.  I'm not expecting a detailed, commited statement of exactly what they're going to do, but even a vague "we've noticed many priests don't solo the way we have envisioned" or "as we continue to ensure healing is balanced we will make adjustments to keep the other non-healing facets of the classes balanced" is too much to ask for. 49% of the problem in here is summed up in the quote I pasted above.  Another 49% is due to frustration due to lack of willingness to communicate anything at all, no matter how miniscule, on SOE's part to the masses.  The other 2% is made of various minor issues.</span><div></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Stjarna Kvarco wrote:  <font color="#ffff00"> "But one thing I never do is put up with a customer who is being downright mean to me. "</font> I disagree.  Companies that care about customer service welcome complaints, as it is feedback.  Those who get irritated with a product/service, and silently stop using it provide no feedback at all. <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR>Stjarna Kvarco wrote:  <FONT color=#ffff00> "But one thing I never do is put up with a customer who is being downright mean to me. "</FONT><BR><BR>I disagree.  Companies that care about customer service welcome complaints, as it is feedback.  Those who get irritated with a product/service, and silently stop using it provide no feedback at all.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You can disagree but you won't find many Customer Service Departments that welcome or even tolerate abuse.   MMO Customer Service is different than any other industry I've seen based on the type of product and its cost to use ratio.   </P> <P>There is a marked difference however between feed back and complaints.  I've never heard someone say "positive complaint."  The employees for SOE are people just like you and I and should be treated with the same respect you would give anyone.   They don't sit around all day and think of new ways to annoy us (I've asked one or two of them and have verified it) and have motivation to make EQ2 a great product.  </P>

[Antryg Mistrose]

I have your permission to disagree?  Dandy. Complaint <> Abuse. <div></div>