Glory of Combat Experiment

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Just wanted to know if any of you Templars have tried this yet.  I haven't but I'd be interested to know about the findings.  Since the expansion, we can again cast Glory of Combat on as many members of our group that our concentration allows.  So, instead of buffing your tank/group (at level 50ish) with symbol and redoubt, instead have a group and buffing scheme like this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Melee (power regen)</DIV> <DIV>Melee (dps)</DIV> <DIV>Melee (dps)</DIV> <DIV>Mage (dps)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Valor</DIV> <DIV>GoC (Tank)</DIV> <DIV>GoC (Melee power regen)</DIV> <DIV>GoC (Melee dps)</DIV> <DIV>GoC (Melee dps)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For an xp group, to me this sounds a bit insane in terms of healing power.  Might be one of those things where you could almost go afk while grouping hehe.  For a raid, I was thinking something like take out the tank and add a melee dps into that slot and GoC him.  Seems to me that you could keep a group of melee dps in alot of health on a raid where AE damage is a concern.  As a solo healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?  I'm thinking a Templar might excel at group healing melee dps groups on raids simply because of glory of combat.  And in an xp group with the  makeup like I've described... well there wouldn't be much of a reason to cast a heal unless someone took alot of burst damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, like I say, wanted to see if anyone had tried it yet before I start trying to find willing participants.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>I dont cast Glory of Combat on raids unless for some reason I have an extra conc slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "chance" that it may go off is so slim anyway, the chance that it would go off when needed is even slimmer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>844hp on someone who may take an AE or 844 hp + melee atk skills buff on a melee is far better as something thats always on and always working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Usually I have Valor Symbol, Prae self, Redoubt VB tank then depending on raid Redoubt self and other healer in grp if low hp, if not the redoubt for another tank or possible chanter / bard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive never had a set up where Ive cast GoC yet though, too unreliable and redoubt on an extra person is ultimatly better.</DIV>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>I don't know if I would call the chance for GoC to proc as slim. Yes, I know it's 5 percent.  Meaning over 100 successful melee attacks, 5 will proc GoC.  But how many melee attacks do we see from melee dpsers in a single fight?  Alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From personal experience.  In a group with two bruisers with GoC, it's proccing very often.  On the order of almost being irritating with all the group heal graphics.  Combined with our fate line and it's almost as if we're constantly being group healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I'll have to try this out on my own.  From my limited experience, I still think GoC would rock as a dps meleer group buff against raid targets that AE.  And in a normal group, like I say, I think GoC on 4 meleers would be fun hehe.  Yeah, it's not a managed heal.  But in a normal group with two meleers buffed with GoC it's already a little funny to see the procs coming in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Protoso]

<P>With GoC on 2 melee folks, tank and scout normally, it procs like a crazed hobo trying to proc himself a bottle of wine...not sure where thats going...</P> <P>anyways, on raids the MT usually doesnt do much meleeing so that only leaves the bard and me perhaps to put it on, but i really dont melee enough to make it effective. So on raids id rather put GoC on the scout and put redoubt on the chanter or mage who loves to get aggro, or maybe ill go crazy and give myself an hp buff<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Its a totally different game in raids, and your groups wont be set up like a regular xp grp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GoC being a 5% chance does not mean it will proc on 5% of all hits so 100 hits would weild 5 procs, its a 5% chance, with fast weapons it goes down to a 2% chance, the low chance mixed with it proccing whenever and most likely not when it would benefit the tank, or not even in range to heal ppl depending on your raid and what group your in means Redoubt on an extra person is ultimatly better.</DIV>

[Stjarna Kvar]

By laws of probability, there is a 5% chance that each successful hit will proc. There is a 95% chance it will not. But like the lottery, the laws of probability don't always work out to be realistic. I personally believe that AGI has something to do with it, since it has been my experience that proccing spells work better with scouts in the group than on low AGI characters, and adding a bard who is buffing AGI seems to improve proccing. I'd like to know how 5% with weapons that provide more possible hits equate to a lower proc rate? That doesn't make sense to me.[edit] misunderstood the original 5% = 2% question and popped off before I could put a better request for clarification. This question is more accurate based on the 5%=2% post.<p>Message Edited by Stjarna Kvarco on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 AM</span>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Well, for a raid I wasn't implying that we should try to use this if we're in the MT group.  If you're in the MT group then yes, there's really little reason to use this spell as it's usually a power regenner, tank, me and at least 2 other healers.  And like you say, the MT isn't meleeing much because he's trying to avoid big damage ripostes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My experiment was as a Templar in a melee dps group on a raid where AE damage is an issue.  The way I see it, GoC would be spamming and would allow you to more freely keep an eye on the MT group where the heals really count.  Just some clarification.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the 5 percent versus 2 percent thing.  What that poster was trying to say is that faster and slower weapons will generally proc at the same rate.  That way you don't have people equipping really fast weapons so that they proc more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Notrevice]

<DIV>Ive never liked glory, allways seemed buggy to me</DIV><p>Message Edited by Notrevice on <span class=date_text>11-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:26 AM</span>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Depends what your raiding, but my average melee dps group would have an Inq for all the haste, and well they need the extra hp as most melee cant survive the dmg from an AE like Terrorunatla (pre-nerf) or Barakah Siyamak no matter if they have 5k resists.</DIV>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>I could hump the leg of the developer that created this spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I agree, it isn't all that wonderful if you're in a group with a lot of DPS and take the mobs down quickly; however, I was in a small guild group last night with just the monk and a wizard... myself, and another templar (I did reactives, she did big heals).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But let me tell you something... this spell goes off a LOT when it's a slower battle. I only just got it, so it was only an apprentice 1 spell at the time, but it went off at least 5 times per battle for 240 hp group heals each time. We barely had to heal the monk. It was crazy fun. My husband was flipping out watching us fight and seeing the group heal go off.</DIV>

[BenEm]

Yep this spell proc's all the time for me espeacially on multi's  . Raids a different story .

[kelly]

this spell is great in xp groups especially with hasted melees brawlers scouts even air pets it goes off a ton kelly <div></div>

[Timaarit]

Why do you think it works any different from any other procs? It has a 5% chance to proc per 3s. Just as any other proc in game. Thus is will proc on average once per minute regardless of the speed of the target. <div></div>

[kenji]

<P>Templar<BR>Zerker (Haste buff, berserk buff, 2h, for proc)<BR>Brigand (Debuffer, extreme high dps, with good aggro distract)<BR>SK (AC sharing, with 2h, for proc)<BR>Monk (Haste buff, 2h, for proc)<BR>Bard (Haste song)</P> <P>Valor => Group AC, HP<BR>Divine Prae => Brigand<BR>GoC => Zerker<BR>GoC => Monk<BR>GoC => SK<BR>GoC => Brigand<BR><BR><BR></P>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Why do you think it works any different from any other procs? It has a 5% chance to proc per 3s. Just as any other proc in game. Thus is will proc on average once per minute regardless of the speed of the target.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are partially right Timaarit.  Dual Wields and 2-handers are averaged out to 3 seconds for proc rates; however, there is more to the proc rate then just auto-attack.</P>

[RipFlex]

<P>Well I always have 1 extra conc slot left over so I do cast a second GoC on our fastest attacking Melee.  Other than that the other one on the Main Tank or other next fastest attacking Melee guy.</P> <P>Reguardless what people say about how useless a certain Templar spell might be to them, for me every little Helps.</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Chogar wrote: <p>You are partially right Timaarit.  Dual Wields and 2-handers are averaged out to 3 seconds for proc rates; however, there is more to the proc rate then just auto-attack.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Only the CA's. Yes, I do know. What I donk know is how that chance is calculated. Is it relative to the cast time of the CA or to the hasted delay of auto attack? If it is the first, then it really doesn't matter which melee class is given the proc. If it is the latter, then fast melee classes are the best choise and then there would be possible to exploit it by not giving haste to anyone and thus increasing the chance for a proc per autoattack hit.</span><div></div>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR> <P>You are partially right Timaarit.  Dual Wields and 2-handers are averaged out to 3 seconds for proc rates; however, there is more to the proc rate then just auto-attack.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Only the CA's. Yes, I do know. What I donk know is how that chance is calculated. Is it relative to the cast time of the CA or to the hasted delay of auto attack? If it is the first, then it really doesn't matter which melee class is given the proc. If it is the latter, then fast melee classes are the best choise and then there would be possible to exploit it by not giving haste to anyone and thus increasing the chance for a proc per autoattack hit.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So let me get this straight...</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Timaarit wrote: <P>Why do you think it works any different from any other procs? It has a 5% chance to proc per 3s. Just as any other proc in game. Thus is will proc on average once per minute regardless of the speed of the target.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So you said you will only proc 1 time per minute on average with no clue how the proc system works?  Are you trying to spread diss-information on purpose?</P> <P>As to how the basics work.  Each hit from a combat art (there are probably a few exceptions since I do not play every class) counts towards the weapon hitting.  So if you have a slow 2-hander and use a combat art that hits 5 times you have just made 5 swings with your weapon as far as the proc cares (the actual time interval is not part of the equation).  So if a person with a proc buff on them spams combat arts not only will they get their normal swings included, they will also include all the hits from the combat arts.  If you have a really slow weapon this can equate to a lot of procs in a very short time because of combat arts alone (which do not need the weapon to actually swing to use).  How does Haste affect the Proc rate?  /shrug.  Have not heard an answer to that question yet, just speculation.</P> <P>So the best person to put a proc buff on would be a character with a lot of multi-hit CA's with a long delay weapon.  Barring that, any Scout will do.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Chogar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Chogar wrote: <p>You are partially right Timaarit.  Dual Wields and 2-handers are averaged out to 3 seconds for proc rates; however, there is more to the proc rate then just auto-attack.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Only the CA's. Yes, I do know. What I donk know is how that chance is calculated. Is it relative to the cast time of the CA or to the hasted delay of auto attack? If it is the first, then it really doesn't matter which melee class is given the proc. If it is the latter, then fast melee classes are the best choise and then there would be possible to exploit it by not giving haste to anyone and thus increasing the chance for a proc per autoattack hit.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>So let me get this straight...</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p></p> <hr> Timaarit wrote: <p>Why do you think it works any different from any other procs? It has a 5% chance to proc per 3s. Just as any other proc in game. Thus is will proc on average once per minute regardless of the speed of the target.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>So you said you will only proc 1 time per minute on average with no clue how the proc system works?  Are you trying to spread diss-information on purpose?</p><hr></blockquote>What disinformation? I did not say that the CA's will not give additional procs, my latter post was lacking few words; 'only CA's will give additional procs'. What I did ask was just what you described. But do you know that for a fact? Or is the chance for a proc calculated by the cast time of the CA? Autoattacks will give 1 proc per minute per weapon if CA's are timed just right or there are no CA's. I doubt CA's will give procs according to autoattack proc chance, I think they are related to how fast the actual CA is. Or is there other information anywhere?  This would mean that dualwielding player could get average of 3 procs per minute if he spams CA's all the time. At best most can use CA's roughly 1/3 of the time in long fights and they will also prevent autoattacks. But it is easy to check, just calculate how many weapon procs you get on average per minute in a fight. That is the amount of GoC procs you would get also. I doubt you get even 3 per minute with any class.</span><div></div>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Timaarit wrote:</P> <P><BR><SPAN>What disinformation? I did not say that the CA's will not give additional procs, my latter post was lacking few words; 'only CA's will give additional procs'. What I did ask was just what you described. But do you know that for a fact? Or is the chance for a proc calculated by the cast time of the CA? Autoattacks will give 1 proc per minute per weapon if CA's are timed just right or there are no CA's. <FONT color=#ffff00>I doubt CA's will give procs according to autoattack proc chance</FONT>, I think they are related to how fast the actual CA is. Or is there other information anywhere?  <FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>This would mean that dualwielding player could get average of 3 procs per minute if he spams CA's all the time</FONT>.</FONT> At best most can use CA's roughly 1/3 of the time in long fights and they will also prevent autoattacks.<BR><BR>But it is easy to check, just calculate how many weapon procs you get on average per minute in a fight. That is the amount of GoC procs you would get also. I doubt you get even 3 per minute with any class.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Do not believe me.  Do your own research on the matter.  There where a lot of threads about how procs worked with weapon delay and combat arts.  As to the highlighted part.  What you doubt is the way it works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[zorbdan]

<P>What strikes me about this conversation that is really a bad thing is this : </P> <P> </P> <P>The spell has a description of it's function yet people have to debate that function. If it says 5% chance why is there any question ? Because SOE likes to trick us and make us believe one thing when in actuality the real mechanics and function of a spell are hidden. Sure the spell procs a heal beyond that we really have no idea what the specifics of the mechanics are that result in the spell procing. This theme is consistent throughout all classes and all spells they never tell us the whole story, so many things are hidden and only sometimes able to be revealed by extensive testing.</P> <P>People talk about dumbing down the game etc ... so they do crap like give us erroneous spell descriptions to create a facade of difficulty</P> <P>Not to mention the DEVs posts saying '' thats a display bug on the spell description'' or situations where the information listed on persona is not reflective of what happens in game for whatever reason.  Such as 30 % avoidance does not mean you will avoid 30% of attacks </P> <p>Message Edited by zorbdan on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[kenji]

<P>the old equation is (by dev):</P> <P>( proc % x (weapon spd /3 ) )</P> <P>it was before DW proc rate change.</P> <P>i didnt read any new equation after that patch. need a new 1</P>

[Galey]

<DIV>Holy Redoubt Master 1 buffs nearly 1k hp, and being in the MT group all the time i think it's much more important to have that up, however i do have GoC up on 2 people when just grouping..</DIV>