Post by Moorgard on Class Equality

[Kendricke]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><EM>"Anytime you have multiple abilities that serve the same function in different ways, there will be debates about which is better. Perfect equality can only be achieved by making abilities exactly the same; therefore, the notion of equality is constantly competing with the desire for classes to be distinct.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Tanking--like healing, like damage, like control--is not meant to be perfectly equal; it is meant to be comparable while still having pros and cons depending on the situation. That is not apparent by scrutinizing a few abilities in isolation, but rather by looking at the whole picture. Some fighters have more direct hate-generation tools while others have more indirect forms of generating hate. Shadowknights fall into the latter category. If some fighters have to work harder to generate hate, that doesn't necessarily indicate something is broken, though we will keep an eye on the numbers to ensure that rampant imbalances are addressed."  -Moorgard, </EM><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=68727#M68727" target=_blank><EM>Shadowknight Forum</EM></A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though the post was made specifically in regards to Shadowknights, it addresses a general concern raised by many Templars, which is to say the claim oft repeated that SOE wants all "healers to heal equally".  The above post certainly seems to shed some more light on exactly what SOE means by "equality". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Specifically the first line of the second paragraph with essentially states outright that <EM>"healing...is not meant to be perfectly equal".</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's certainly some food for thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BenEm]

Dam and this whole time some people here were saying oh no we are still a lot better healers ...still the best ....still the most healing blah blah blah ....Once again the Devs set us striaght :smileywink:  Their ya have it folks if Temps still have more healing power  we now can see it would only be by a slight margin ! Man this really validates many of our concerns here !!  Thank goodness for that clairification ! The BS was starting to get knee deep . Now that we know all healers are very close we can take healing out of the pic and focus on Utility !!! HOOOORAY !!

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR>Dam and this whole time some people here were saying oh no we are still a lot better healers ...still the best ....still the most healing blah blah blah ....Once again the Devs set us striaght :smileywink:  Their ya have it folks if Temps still have more healing power  we now can see it would only be by a slight margin ! Man this really validates many of our concerns here !!  Thank goodness for that clairification ! The BS was starting to get knee deep . Now that we know all healers are very close we can take healing out of the pic and focus on Utility !!! HOOOORAY !! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually, Moorgard stated that healing is not intended to be perfectly equal.  How does this translate to him stating that all healing is "very close"? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even then, I'm curious how this invalidates the amount of healing we can put forward?  I'm still healing for more than druids and shaman.  Even so, the developers are more than capable of running the numbers to verify that as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>It's still shakey ground to take what he says regarding a fighter subclass and apply it to a priest subclass <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR> <DIV>It's still shakey ground to take what he says regarding a fighter subclass and apply it to a priest subclass <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I understand that, which is why I provided a link and context to provide a bit more perspective.  However, the fact remains that healing is specifically mentioned as a system which is not intended to be perfectly equal.  Till such a time as the developers drop a few lines in here, this is as close to a relevant quote as I've seen in some time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR>Dam and this whole time some people here were saying oh no we are still a lot better healers ...still the best ....still the most healing blah blah blah ....Once again the Devs set us striaght :smileywink:  Their ya have it folks if Temps still have more healing power  we now can see it would only be by a slight margin ! Man this really validates many of our concerns here !!  Thank goodness for that clairification ! The BS was starting to get knee deep . Now that we know all healers are very close we can take healing out of the pic and focus on Utility !!! HOOOORAY !! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually, Moorgard stated that healing is not intended to be perfectly equal.  How does this translate to him stating that all healing is "very close"? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even then, I'm curious how this invalidates the amount of healing we can put forward?  I'm still healing for more than druids and shaman.  Even so, the developers are more than capable of running the numbers to verify that as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes not exactly because they would have to use the exact spells in each class to achieve that but he does go on to explain this :</DIV> <DIV><EM>though we will keep an eye on the numbers to ensure that rampant imbalances are addressed."  -Moorgard, </EM><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=68727#M68727" target=_blank><EM><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Shadowknight Forum</FONT></EM></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that can't be spun although some will try no doubt . Its as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that we will all be very close in the healing dept . Which is really exactly what they said previously they just left a lot of room for squirming and twisting and spin . </DIV> <DIV>So now we can only hope our # 's are very close or we will see further nerfing of the Temp which would not be welcomed or they could bring up the healing of the other healers to be closer to were some feel we our now  which is how I would guess many Temps would prefer .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now that is past us.... I hope , We simply wont be better healers we will all be comparable but nobody will have a large advantage in that Dept ...so Healing is a wash on the healing classes . That leaves Utility :smileymad: and I believe some have legitimate gripes here !</DIV> <P>Message Edited by BenEmma on <SPAN class=date_text>11-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:43 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by BenEmma on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Out of curiosity, how do you figure that utility equates to a primary archetype function?</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[BenEm]

I see it as what will truely set each class apart . Being that there will be no clear cut advantages in healing it will be the Utility that will really make one class different than the other. The utility should grow to be the decision maker when putting together small groups or raid groups to function as efficiantly as possible as well as each healers function or job in said group or raid .

[Gcha]

<DIV>Is "perfectly equal" more equal than just "equal"?</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is "perfectly equal" more equal than just "equal"?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I thought equal wasn't really sugar?

[Gcha]

<P>Ah yes, indeed, now I understand.</P> <P>Moorguardese can be quite daunting at times.</P>

[Timaarit]

Yeah, they mean that some classes are more equal than others. <div></div>

[Stjarna Kvar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moregard wrote:<BR><EM>That is not apparent by scrutinizing a few abilities in isolation, but rather by looking at the whole picture.</EM> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's the part that I think alot of us are missing.  We have lots of tools that some people don't want to use.  When you remove 20% of a spell line up, you remove 20% of the effective picture, and therefore the picture appears smaller than what it should be.  We can argue that some spells do not fit our playstyle--but those arguments only indicate that we probably shouldn't be playing that particular class.</P> <P>A more reasonable approach than trying to change the overall picture of how a templar should function would be to advocate a small improvement to those spells that people seem determined to remove from the picture.  If we can improve those spells to the point where they actually bring color and texture to the class, then the whole picture will be more appealing.</P> <P>My 2,000,000,000,000 cp</P> <P><BR> </P>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stjarna Kvarco wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moregard wrote:<BR><EM>That is not apparent by scrutinizing a few abilities in isolation, but rather by looking at the whole picture.</EM> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's the part that I think alot of us are missing.  We have lots of tools that some people don't want to use.  When you remove 20% of a spell line up, you remove 20% of the effective picture, and therefore the picture appears smaller than what it should be.  We can argue that some spells do not fit our playstyle--but those arguments only indicate that we probably shouldn't be playing that particular class.</P> <P>A more reasonable approach than trying to change the overall picture of how a templar should function would be to advocate a small improvement to those spells that people seem determined to remove from the picture.  If we can improve those spells to the point where they actually bring color and texture to the class, then the whole picture will be more appealing.</P> <P>My 2,000,000,000,000 cp</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I dont think its that Templars dont want to use 20% of our Utility I think its more like 20 to 25 % of our Utility is nearly useless .</P> <P>See nobody can honestly say that the Mez line has been a solid utility for Temps nor a  lifesaver for groups ( the Temps Mez anyways ) . I use it when the opportunity knocks (mainly solo )  but the fact is I am yet to save any group from a wipe because of this spell line . Sure sometimes its nice to avoid an add for 14 seconds but never has it been a lifesaver . Now soothe thats much better for avoiding adds anyways its a great spell and belongs in the Temp line up . Soothes and Stuns its all good and Templar like . Mez line Bwahahahahaha ya right and if your buying that I have bridge for you to look at ... Can get a great deal on it :smileywink:<BR></P>

[Stjarna Kvar]

I use every single spell I have every group I'm in. Sure it takes pickup group members a few pulls to get used to my macro "Mezzing %t for 14s, everybody hands OFF!". You don't know how many people look at me funny after that and say "I didn't know templars got a mez." I use the fate line, mark line, and curate line FIRST before casting any other spells. I use the heck out of weakness (I know its old and I wish we got an upgrade) and AC Debuff.But as a I said in a previous thread... I get eaten alive by those gobbies in lavastorm... so what do I know.I stand by my statment that the utility heals are useful--just not as useful now as they used to be pre LU13. Give em an increase, dont change the concept. They are one of the things that makes our class different from other classes.I still want a DPS upgrade though.

[Xaax]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc99>How do you do that on anything less then a raid mob? By the time I get MoK snd the AC debuff on the mob it is almost dead considering a ^^ or ^^^. I on get Fate on mobs if they don’t have any arrows and non group mobs or down arrows die before Fate goes off. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc99>Or do you cast all that stuff when solo’n? If so what does a proc heal, melee debuff do for a templar?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#66cc99 size=3>Now on raid mobs they make a vast difference, nothing like seeing millions of little heals going off on 24 peeps beating on King Z. from MoK</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc99></FONT></DIV>

[Stjarna Kvar]

Fighting ^^^ yellow and oranges with a SK, Guardian and me. Sometimes we add a Dirge and I don't get all four lines off, and a rarely have time to drop a reactive during battles. Add between as necessary.

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><EM>"Anytime you have multiple abilities that serve the same function in different ways, there will be debates about which is better. Perfect equality can only be achieved by making abilities exactly the same; therefore, the notion of equality is constantly competing with the desire for classes to be distinct."</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>-Moorgard</EM></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Thats the only relevant part in this whole blast of hot air. Thats a blatant attempt by SoE to cover their [Removed for Content] and allow themselves the luxury of changing even the smallest differences and calling it "balancing". Here is the catch though - the ballon wont fly because we all know that there are differences, and that is what shapes a class, especially at Sub-Class. So just what has he told us? Not a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing - the classes are different. Oh, and we still want them to be distinct, but in a sorta equal kinda way...[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? To hell with equal - it was differences that launched EQLive into the clouds, and its equality and alot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and moaning that is gonna bomb this game. I want my Templar to be a god-like healer/buffer that can take a shot. I dont want slows, ds, invis, mez, or any of that crap. Gimme good buffs, over-the-top healing, and plate that works. Thats it. Give the shammies what they want, and the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] druids what they want, as long as it isnt what I want, and we can all be different, and this "utility" crap can be flushed.</P> <P> </P> <P>I love it when they state the obvious and it becomes some sorta revelation to some folks. Bah.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 PM</span>

[zorbdan]

What do you want ? Equality or Distinction ? Can you have both ? <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>e·qual·i·ty</STRONG>   <A href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dequality" target=_blank><IMG alt="Audio pronunciation of " src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/[Removed for Content].jpg" border=0></A><SPAN>(</SPAN><SPAN> P </SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN>  <A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" target=_blank><B><FONT color=#0033ff>Pronunciation Key</FONT></B></A>  (<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>-kw<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/obreve.gif" width=7>l<IMG height=22 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" width=4><IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>-t<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif" width=7>)<BR><I>n.</I> <I>pl.</I> <B>e·qual·i·ties </B></DIV> <OL> <LI>The state or quality of being equal.</LI> <LI><U><I>Mathematics.</I></U> A statement, usually an equation, that one thing equals another.</LI></OL> <P><STRONG>e·qual</STRONG>   <A href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dequal" target=_blank><IMG alt="Audio pronunciation of " src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/[Removed for Content].jpg" border=0></A><SPAN>(</SPAN><SPAN> P </SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN>  <A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" target=_blank><B><FONT color=#0033ff>Pronunciation Key</FONT></B></A>  (<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif" width=7><IMG height=22 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" width=4>kw<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif" width=6>l)<BR><I>adj.</I></P> <OL> <LI>Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.</LI> <LI><U><I>Mathematics.</I></U> Being the same or identical to in value.</LI> <LI> <OL> <LI>Having the same privileges, status, or rights: equal before the law.</LI> <LI>Being the same for all members of a group: gave every player an equal chance to win.</LI></OL></LI> <LI> <OL> <LI>Having the requisite qualities, such as strength or ability, for a task or situation: “Elizabeth found herself quite equal to the scene” (Jane Austen).</LI> <LI>Adequate in extent, amount, or degree.</LI></OL></LI> <LI>Impartial; just; equitable.</LI> <LI>Tranquil; equable.</LI> <LI>Showing or having no variance in proportion, structure, or appearance.</LI></OL> <P><STRONG>dis·tinct</STRONG>   <A href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Ddistinct" target=_blank><IMG alt="Audio pronunciation of " src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/[Removed for Content].jpg" border=0></A><SPAN>(</SPAN><SPAN> P </SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN>  <A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" target=_blank><B><FONT color=#0033ff>Pronunciation Key</FONT></B></A>  (d<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>-st<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>ngkt<IMG height=22 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" width=4>)<BR><I>adj.</I></P> <OL> <LI>Readily distinguishable from all others; discrete: on two distinct occasions.</LI> <LI>Easily perceived by the senses or intellect; clear: a distinct flavor.</LI> <LI>Clearly defined; unquestionable: at a distinct disadvantage.</LI> <LI>Very likely; probable: There is a distinct possibility that she won't come.</LI> <LI>Notable: a distinct honor and high privilege.</LI></OL> <P><BR><BR> </P> <P><STRONG>dis·tinc·tion</STRONG>   <A href="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Ddistinction" target=_blank><IMG alt="Audio pronunciation of " src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/[Removed for Content].jpg" border=0></A><SPAN>(</SPAN><SPAN> P </SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN>  <A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" target=_blank><B><FONT color=#0033ff>Pronunciation Key</FONT></B></A>  (d<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>-st<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>ngk<IMG height=22 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" width=4>sh<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif" width=6>n)<BR><I>n.</I></P> <OL> <LI>The act of distinguishing; differentiation.</LI> <LI>The condition or fact of being dissimilar or distinct; difference: “the crucial distinction between education and indoctrination” (A. Bartlett Giamatti). See Synonyms at <A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=difference" target=_blank><FONT color=#0033ff>difference</FONT></A>.</LI> <LI>A distinguishing factor, attribute, or characteristic.</LI> <LI> <OL> <LI>Excellence or eminence, as of performance, character, or reputation: a diplomat of distinction.</LI> <LI>A special feature or quality conferring superiority.</LI></OL></LI> <LI>Recognition of achievement or superiority; honor: graduated with distinction.</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P>Is that not pretty obvious ?</P> <P>Message Edited by zorbdan on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:51 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by zorbdan on <SPAN class=date_text>11-18-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:51 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by zorbdan on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>