So I made a Conjuror...

[SnowKnight]

<DIV> <DIV>Ok first off let me say :<BR>I know templars are not a dps class and Conjurors are, but even so templars should be able to solo at least a little better, and as for healing taking skill? Thats not true either, 99% of fights I just cast the same two heals over and over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok that said here I go. </DIV> <DIV>I used to love my templar. I was third on my server to 60, and only just dinged 48 when DoF came out. Now I barely log in, I just cant bear it anymore, grouping for me consists of</DIV> <DIV>- cast single target reactive</DIV> <DIV>- cast group reactive</DIV> <DIV>- repeat endlessly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing gos (Borrowed from another thread)</DIV> <DIV>- Debuff</DIV> <DIV>- Debuff</DIV> <DIV>- DoT</DIV> <DIV>- DoT</DIV> <DIV>- HO, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite, </DIV> <DIV>- Strike, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite, </DIV> <DIV>- HO </DIV> <DIV>- Strike, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite </DIV> <DIV>Repeat endlessly, with a reactive thrown in everyone in a while. Note that the list doesnt include the endless interrupts or fizzles either. The Pit champ (which im going to use as a standard to compare the characters) Takes quite a while (5 min plus) IF I can kill him ( I wear a mix of legendary fabled and treasured ), its about a 50/50 chance I think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was playing my templar the other week, slooowly soling yet another 15 minute solo mob (OK slight lie there <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but after playing my conjuror thats how it feels), when the vuage thoughts id been having about making a alt mage of some sort finally came together, after seeing that someone in my guild would make me the adept 3's so I could own up IoR. I already have a warlock, this was my first toon, and frankly I dont really like them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I thought a diff path this time, and seeing as how enchanters are currently borked beyond belief (that and the fact I have one, albeit level 13 till they get fixed) that left necromancer or conjuror. I chose conjuror cause I like the showy pets, spells and illusions plus they do nice group and single target damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yeah, I go through IoR having a ball, Solod all the named and the orc at the end, went on made my summoner. First of, let me say pets are great. No more interrupts. No more stuns for 20 seconds. And hey who needs to heal yourself If your not taking damage. DPS is great. Things go down MUCH faster than with a templar ( Although this is to be expected, I will get to my point later). Level up to 20 make my conjuror get my various pets till im at current level of 46 (which took under 3 weeks, Id like to see a templar level that fast :p ).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On to the pit champ. He takes me about 5 seconds to kill with my conjuror, and to lose Id have to go afk or something. My templar has a real challenge to defeat  this guy, even on lowest difficulty. Something is not right there. My templar should at least be able to solo the champ on easy with a decent chance of success (bearing in mind I have adept 3's and pretty decent gear). My conjuror has absolutely no problems at all. Zone in, 10 minutes later your done. Templar zones in, maybe 30 - 40 min later your done, If you can manage to kill the champ.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My templar is just not fun anymore. He solos much too slowly, and fights are just boring. At least I can have some fun in a group with my conjuror, not just spam the same 2 heals over and over, and soloing actually becomes viable. In short my templar is now retired, except for when needed on a raid, and my Conjuror will be my new main. I dont think SOE will be happy until there are no templars left.</DIV></DIV>

[bigmak20]

SOE probably isn't trying to get rid of Templars they just don't know what to do with us because our class no longer belongs in the game based on their new class descriptions.  There is no place for a dedicated healer class. The other thing that I believe has irrevocably damaged Templars is our spokespersons went to the Community Summit and told SOE we were fine (we are not) and in fact told them Templars were still the best healers by a significant margin (we are not).  This put Templar issues at the very bottom of any list or priorities SOE has.  We are all witness to that.

[Donte]

<DIV>I hear ya.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I absolutely hate my templar now.  53 and stale</DIV> <DIV>My Dirge is becoming my main.  51 and climbing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny thing is the bard is the lowest dps scout class and is still a blast to play.  While the templar is pathetic.  I will not play solo with the templar anymore.  Heck I wont even harvest because green single downs take too long to kill off if I get agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>70-90 dps at level 53 is down right embarrasing.  I even have descent INT 160.  Why in the heck should I have to sacrifice WIS for INT just to have any soloability?  I was even building an int suit.  Rediculas I say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE! get a clue!</DIV>

[SnowKnight]

<DIV>I hear you with the harvesting lol. With my conjuror I just have the pet take agro, toss of a dot or two, and continue harvesting. XP and Harvesting at the same time, how can you go wrong! :p</DIV>

[notxab]

I love my conj. alt. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>SOE probably isn't trying to get rid of Templars they just don't know what to do with us because our class no longer belongs in the game based on their new class descriptions.  There is no place for a dedicated healer class.<BR><BR>The other thing that I believe has irrevocably damaged Templars is our spokespersons went to the Community Summit and told SOE we were fine (we are not) and in fact told them Templars were still the best healers by a significant margin (we are not).  This put Templar issues at the very bottom of any list or priorities SOE has.  We are all witness to that.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Xrande showed up to the first Summit with a list of issues as long as my arm.  Even though English isn't his first language, he muddled through the list and the developers took the time to hear every single complaint...complaints that were compiled in this forum by contributers from the Templar community.  Where were all of you in April, May, and June when the list was really taking off?</P> <P>Tamat was there primary from EQ2 Vault...but he was also a Templar representative.  I was there primarily for Guild Concerns...but again, I'm also a Templar.  Both of us brought up issues about our classes over the course of several days (the first Summit coincided with FanFaire, and Summit Attendees had great access to the developers throughout the Faire).  </P> <P>At the second Summit, you had Ethec from Ten Ton Hammer, who is arguably one of the most versed Templar in the game.  He's certainly produced more spell lists and guides for Templars than any other single player.  I think he's posted on these forums 3 or 4 times total.  You also had Radar-X, who I don't believe went based on his Templar status, but more likely for his community contributions to the Non-Gameplay Discussion forums (just as Pravus and others were invited to the first Summit).  </P> <P>There are no Templar spokespersons or correspondants or representatives.  No special access.  No secret handshakes.  No grand conspiracy.</P> <P>There are only players and developers.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Truffor]

My int is 190 without any potion, my Smite (45) is Master I (bought it yesterday. I'm 56 and it's replaced at 59), my strike(53) is adept 3. I used to solo a lot pre LU13 without such a stuff. And guess what, even with that, my Necro is now 41and still climbing... Plz fix templar... <div></div>

[Donte]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Truffor wrote:<BR>My int is 190 without any potion, my Smite (45) is Master I (bought it yesterday. I'm 56 and it's replaced at 59), my strike(53) is adept 3. I used to solo a lot pre LU13 without such a stuff. And guess what, even with that, my Necro is now 41and still climbing...<BR><BR>Plz fix templar...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ouch. 

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <P>There are no Templar spokespersons or correspondants or representatives.  No special access.  No secret handshakes.  No grand conspiracy.</P> <P>There are only players and developers. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Nobody said there is a secret handshake or a grand conspiracy.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>And nobody said we wanted you there speaking for us, either.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Suite</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...  Where were all of you in April, May, and June when the list was really taking off?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Still enjoying our UNNERFED Templars, with a few minor issues.  I was only in my 20 levels at the time, so I doubt I even knew half the problems.</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And I would say that April, May, and June are irrelevant since the LU#13 nuke occurred after that.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...  Where were all of you in April, May, and June when the list was really taking off?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Still enjoying our UNNERFED Templars, with a few minor issues.  I was only in my 20 levels at the time, so I doubt I even knew half the problems.</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And I would say that April, May, and June are irrelevant since the LU#13 nuke occurred after that.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Then do what Xrande did.  Avoid the attacks, the fluff, and the emotionally charged opinions.  List the bugs.  List the problems.  Make sure to keep bugs and suggestions separate.  Xrande knew how to get things done...and it worked.  Go on, make the post.  Make it right and it will get noticed.</P> <P>...or are you waiting for someone like me to make the post for you? :smileywink:  <BR></P>

[Nari]

I have to second that.  I had few complaints about my class at the time, so of course I didn't need to come here and see what was going on. I came here and saw that it has been a combination of needing to relearn my class and a set of reactionary changes that cause me to doubt the capabilities of the development team. (Get mad at me if you want to, those of you who defend every move the developers make, but someone isn't doing their job.  Honesty hurts sometimes.) Maybe we were a bit overpowered, but I never got far enough along to realize that. PS: I am no fan of the conjuror.  My husband plays one and I think it is pretty pathetic out of the box.  Once you spend the money to tune it up, it is tolerable. <div></div>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>Then do what Xrande did.  Avoid the attacks, the fluff, and the emotionally charged opinions.  List the bugs.  List the problems.  Make sure to keep bugs and suggestions separate.  Xrande knew how to get things done...and it worked.  Go on, make the post.  Make it right and it will get noticed.</p> <p>...or are you waiting for someone like me to make the post for you? :smileywink:  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>If this is the result of people making suggestions to the development team, I would be afraid to talk with them.</span><div></div>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Then do what Xrande did.  Avoid the attacks, the fluff, and the emotionally charged opinions.  List the bugs.  List the problems.  Make sure to keep bugs and suggestions separate.  Xrande knew how to get things done...and it worked.  Go on, make the post.  Make it right and it will get noticed.</P> <P>...or are you waiting for someone like me to make the post for you? :smileywink:  <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think if I had the words to do it, I would have already done it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the time I diagnose the issues, it is no longer a game, but a task.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But basically I would say reverse LU#13 nuke.  That of course is not going to happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now my templar is only level 32, so what I am telling you is that I don't have access to the data to give you what u are asking for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't believe that you could express my concerns as it appears you play more technical min/max.  Maybe I misunderstand you, we haven't exchanged many posts to my knowledge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spent months learning to play a character as it grew through the choices that i made.  Then it is all basically erased and i am given something with the same name, but no resemblance to the original.  Bah! why bother discussing this, it won't change.  it won't get better.  by the time I figure out what is wrong, since i have a job a family, etc. it will all be different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anything I say like, my biggest heal takes longer than the tank has health.  then people use reactives, use debuffs, etc.  or the ever popular "Learn your character"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>outrageous and needless, that i should have to relearn something for a game, i already spent time learning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my templar is really now a weaponsmith, so i guess i answered the bankers question wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't replace months of learning, with a few groups, but then the groups die because u don't know how everything was re-arranged on you, and in this community there is no patience, no tolerance.  game over man, game over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it goes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>If this is the result of people making suggestions to the development team, I would be afraid to talk with them.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>EXACTLY!</DIV>

[SnowKnight]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, wether it be kendrickes "Templars are fine" or my "They are fine for healing, but oh so slow solo, and not fun to play anymore". But I think we can safely say MOST templars want some sort of fix.

[SenorPhrog]

Snowknight I'm failing to see the point of this thread.   Conjurers and Necros are widely known for their ability to solo effectively so if thats what you do then you should have made a Conjurer a long time ago.  I've taken mine to level 26 now and they solo darn well.  So because a Conjurer is fun to play that means a Templar has to work the same way?  I'm not disagreeing with you there could be a couple changes that  might quell some of the rumblings but this type of logic doesn't quite seem right. <div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<P>What Im getting at, is that the templar is just a chore to play, Id rather go watch paint dry.</P> <P>The conjuror is just a lot more fun, my templar used to be fun too though.</P>

[Isim]

<P>The post LU13 templar is boreing to play, I spend most of my time leveling my ranger.</P> <P> </P> <P>DEVs bring the fun back to the templars</P>

[SenorPhrog]

Ok so why did you feel the need to create another "So I rolled a <insert class> and I'm having more fun now" thread?  We didn't have enough of those already?   I'm glad you are liking Conjurer and its a great class but I don't see why we needed another one of these. <div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<DIV>I felt the need because its true. Watching the grass grow is at the moment more fun than a templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah one more fact :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our guild used to have 6 templars over 50. Now my templar is the only one left. And I dont even play him anymore.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <P>What Im getting at, is that the templar is just a chore to play, Id rather go watch paint dry.</P> <P>The conjuror is just a lot more fun, my templar used to be fun too though.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>How was the Templar "more fun"?  We took longer to solo prior to Live Update 13.  We had less options for soloing prior to Live Update 13.  So, how did Live Update 13 make Templar soloing less "fun"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not soloing, then why the references to soloing with the conjuror? </DIV>

[SnowKnight]

grouping for me consists of <DIV>- cast single target reactive</DIV> <DIV>- cast group reactive</DIV> <DIV>- repeat endlessly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing gos</DIV> <DIV>- Debuff</DIV> <DIV>- Debuff</DIV> <DIV>- DoT</DIV> <DIV>- DoT</DIV> <DIV>- HO, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite, </DIV> <DIV>- Strike, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite, </DIV> <DIV>- HO </DIV> <DIV>- Strike, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite </DIV> <DIV>Repeat endlessly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is why it is not fun. No variation, no options for using other methods to solo, or heal in a group. No real skil needed, I could prolly just make a macro for it, and no one in the group would notice. The only time healing is a challenge is when a tank is tanking at least 4 ^^^ heroics at once. Even one grouped broog and meathooks, can anyone say yawn?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im using the conjuror as a reference, just to show how easy it is for other classes to solo and gain levels, as well as how much fun they are compared to a templar. As I said, 46 levels in less than 3 weeks, a lot of that solo, can a templar even come close to that?</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:Ok so why did you feel the need to create another "So I rolled a and I'm having more fun now" thread?  We didn't have enough of those already?   I'm glad you are liking Conjurer and its a great class but I don't see why we needed another one of these.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You still dont understand????We do it to get our templars FIXED.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> SnowKnight wrote: <p>What Im getting at, is that the templar is just a chore to play, Id rather go watch paint dry.</p> <p>The conjuror is just a lot more fun, my templar used to be fun too though.</p> <div></div></blockquote> <div>How was the Templar "more fun"?  We took longer to solo prior to Live Update 13.  We had less options for soloing prior to Live Update 13.  So, how did Live Update 13 make Templar soloing less "fun"?</div> <div> </div> <div>If not soloing, then why the references to soloing with the conjuror? </div><hr></blockquote>Funny, it took me 25% longer to solo after lu13.</span><div></div>

[Troga]

Congrats to your Conjuror! u finally found the right class for u it seems! some peeps just pick the wrong class, thats it! it seems like the templar threat is full of "we cant solo" "we suck threat", maybe even more should pick another class! i am happy with my templar, she is 47 and i can duo a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lot with my conjuror. both give each other what they dont have <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR>Ok so why did you feel the need to create another "So I rolled a and I'm having more fun now" thread?  We didn't have enough of those already?   I'm glad you are liking Conjurer and its a great class but I don't see why we needed another one of these.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've seen you post this sort of harassment / attack on several threads now, trying to bully others off the forum.</P> <P>Since when did anyone need your permission to post a thread giving their personal concerns? So there are other threads? So what, he has his own take on it, and noone needs Radar-X's permission before they post.</P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Troga wrote:<BR>Congrats to your Conjuror! u finally found the right class for u it seems!<BR>some peeps just pick the wrong class, thats it! <BR><BR>it seems like the templar threat is full of "we cant solo" "we suck threat", maybe<BR>even more should pick another class!<BR><BR>i am happy with my templar, she is 47 and i can duo a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lot with my conjuror.<BR>both give each other what they dont have <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but in your duo with the conjuror, to use your phrase, you are the one that "sucks". No, I do not mean that as a personal remark, as in, I do not imply it is your the player or your playing skills - I mean, precisely, that in that situation, a templar (any templar) "sucks". If you haven't realized that yet, you are just lacking knowledge. Now that is no crime, and if you are happy, keep on having fun, but coming here and telling others not to "whine" based on a lack of knowledge is going to get you called out.</P> <P>Take your 49 Templar out of that duo. Give me about 5 weeks, maybe less, depending on how quickly they fix the vitality mess up, and swap my Fury in for you. Then watch your conjuror friend get XP about 50% faster duoing with her than with you. If you swapped in a Warden it would also go up (not by as much, but it would).</P> <P>Yes, its that obvious. You don't care about being the "charity case", who is slowing down your friend's XP gain, for grouping with a badly weakened class? Then go right ahead. But most of us do very much care. Something needs to be done. It is not "whining", it is pointing out a gross class imbalance that needs correcting.</P> <P>Of course, if you don't care, as I said, just keep enjoying what you do.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [39 Fury]</P>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Troga wrote:<BR>Congrats to your Conjuror! u finally found the right class for u it seems!<BR>some peeps just pick the wrong class, thats it! <BR><BR>it seems like the templar threat is full of "we cant solo" "we suck threat", maybe<BR>even more should pick another class!<BR><BR>i am happy with my templar, she is 47 and i can duo a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] lot with my conjuror.<BR>both give each other what they dont have <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but in your duo with the conjuror, to use your phrase, you are the one that "sucks". No, I do not mean that as a personal remark, as in, I do not imply it is your the player or your playing skills - I mean, precisely, that in that situation, a templar (any templar) "sucks". If you haven't realized that yet, you are just lacking knowledge. Now that is no crime, and if you are happy, keep on having fun, but coming here and telling others not to "whine" based on a lack of knowledge is going to get you called out.</P> <P>Take your 49 Templar out of that duo. Give me about 5 weeks, maybe less, depending on how quickly they fix the vitality mess up, and swap my Fury in for you. Then watch your conjuror friend get XP about 50% faster duoing with her than with you. If you swapped in a Warden it would also go up (not by as much, but it would).</P> <P>Yes, its that obvious. You don't care about being the "charity case", who is slowing down your friend's XP gain, for grouping with a badly weakened class? Then go right ahead. But most of us do very much care. Something needs to be done. It is not "whining", it is pointing out a gross class imbalance that needs correcting.</P> <P>Of course, if you don't care, as I said, just keep enjoying what you do.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [39 Fury]</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Gotta agree here. As a conjuror id much rather have a fury or warden healing, simply for the fact that they can help dps too. The ONLY thing templar brings to a duo is healing. Which isnt absolutely nessecary, I can just root and recast my pet if it dies, no big deal there. I also have a heal for 444 at level 46, which i can use every 6 seconds.<p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 PM</span>

[Troga]

<div></div>for a steady flow of xp i rarely need the dps of the second class. my templar( i play both) is perfect for what i need her. buffs, heal, debuff, 'nuke', trigger chains. ofc it might be 'different' with a fury or warden. maybe the mobs would die in 20 secs instead of 40(no thanks, costs to much power for a steady xp flow). all i dont get here is the posts of what others have and do and we dont, most threat i ve read has ended up in some kind of they got this and we cant do that.... got me now maybe? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> what about a spell list? traits list? wisdom at max(spells get bonus)? ofc u could have said make one yourself.. stuff like that i am looking for, bugs and so on. not pointing out what u cant do..... maybe i just didnt find the usefull stuff in all of the usefull "we cant do any dps"  or "just start reroll" threats. oh and why the heck are there some multi threats on the same topic? hehe this threat tells u go and make a different class if u want dps....okay! maybe i didnt understand the post/topic! and leave my bubble alone! i burst it myself lol jk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> edit: wait! i just figured! dps support?! lol my conjuror( again i play both) is great at dps! thanks i dont need support at it! my bubble! my bubble! pls leave it alone! <div></div><p>Message Edited by Troga on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:02 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR>grouping for me consists of <DIV>- cast single target reactive</DIV> <DIV>- cast group reactive</DIV> <DIV>- repeat endlessly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing gos</DIV> <DIV>- Debuff</DIV> <DIV>- Debuff</DIV> <DIV>- DoT</DIV> <DIV>- DoT</DIV> <DIV>- HO, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite, </DIV> <DIV>- Strike, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite, </DIV> <DIV>- HO </DIV> <DIV>- Strike, </DIV> <DIV>- Smite </DIV> <DIV>Repeat endlessly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is why it is not fun. No variation, no options for using other methods to solo, or heal in a group. No real skil needed, I could prolly just make a macro for it, and no one in the group would notice. The only time healing is a challenge is when a tank is tanking at least 4 ^^^ heroics at once. Even one grouped broog and meathooks, can anyone say yawn?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im using the conjuror as a reference, just to show how easy it is for other classes to solo and gain levels, as well as how much fun they are compared to a templar. As I said, 46 levels in less than 3 weeks, a lot of that solo, can a templar even come close to that?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I guess what I'm asking is how that is any different than what the situation was prior to the update? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Kendricke wrote: <p>I guess what I'm asking is how that is any different than what the situation was prior to the update? </p> <><> <div></div><hr></blockquote>You have been answered several times. You just choose to keep ignoring that for some reason. It is the fact that pre-lu13, solo content was pretty minimal. With DoF, solo content is 50%. Also pre-lu13, we really were the 1st choise for groups, now we are the last if the group is aware of the changes.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Kendricke wrote: <P>I guess what I'm asking is how that is any different than what the situation was prior to the update?<BR></P><><> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You have been answered several times. You just choose to keep ignoring that for some reason.<BR><BR>It is the fact that pre-lu13, solo content was pretty minimal. With DoF, solo content is 50%. Also pre-lu13, we really were the 1st choise for groups, now we are the last if the group is aware of the changes.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's not what I was asking.  SnowKnight specifically stated that soloing was more fun after the update with his conjuror than with his Templar.  He even went on to list what he does while soloing with his Templar.  I couldn't see anything that he's doing that was any different than what I was doing prior to the update.  </P> <P>Then again, he is level 60 now.  I can imagine that soloing with a lower level Conjuror that can still gain experience is much more fun than soloing with a Templar that cannot - even if everything else were equal.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <P>What Im getting at, is that the templar is just a chore to play, Id rather go watch paint dry.</P> <P>The conjuror is just a lot more fun, my templar used to be fun too though.</P> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>How was the Templar "more fun"?  We took longer to solo prior to Live Update 13.  We had less options for soloing prior to Live Update 13.  So, how did Live Update 13 make Templar soloing less "fun"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not soloing, then why the references to soloing with the conjuror? <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Funny, it took me 25% longer to solo after lu13.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was thinking the same thing, Timaarit.  Were the interrupts alone not noticeable enough proof that it now takes longer to solo? LOL!

[Troga]

i wonder how i could lvl up from 1 - 50 if the content was so minimal(pre DoF, pre lu13). sorry i can tell u that i had enough targets in every zone. also as far i can see it, only lvl 53 atm (currently lvling in DoF), i see it verry balanced, group content and solo content. also i think kendricke was refering to the style how u kill mobs...its the same like after all patches... <div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<P>It's not fun because it takes so long. Plain and simple. Teir 6 mobs have a lot more hp than t5 mobs, and our spells really dont get a big upgrade when we get new ones. So yes, it does in fact take longer after the revamp than before, because you are fighting mobs at a lower dps to hp ratio than you would have fighting a t5 mob. Think about it this way : On isle of refuge, my smite was almost as good as the mages lightning burst. Now my smite barely does noticeable damage. </P> <P>And being level 60 has nothing to do with not having fun, I was looking foward to getting all those old quests out of the journal.</P>

[Brutus2]

<P>I could not agree more with the OP.  The only reason I play my Templar is because I love my guild but I log in a fraction as much as I used to.  I dont care about getting better gear or spells or reaching lvl 60.  Solo takes forever and I fall asleep playing my Templar.  </P> <P>I too made a conjurer alt and love it!  He is only level 13 but I was in Antonica yesterday and picked up Farmer Walcott's quest to kill 10 klicket mites.  I stood right next to Farmer Walcot and with out moving from that spot, sent my pet out to pull mites in from all around, blast them in seconds and pull another.  I killed 10 mites in about 30 seconds with out moving from that spot.  All I could think of was that my cleric at level 13 could not kill 10 mites that fast because you have to stop doing damage to heal your self and you get interrupted and have downtime between fights.</P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>I've found I go thru phases like that. First I made a Warlock when the game launched and was loving it.  Big nukes, big damage - heck, I wasn't even level 25 yet! Then I discovered crafting - Warlock leveling shut down COMPLETELY.  I didn't level the warlock again until my Jeweler was close to level 50.  By then i had so much money I twinked my Warlock until he had all Adept 3s and full Legendary gear. At this point i alternated leveling earning plat on my Jeweler to finance my leveling and leveling my Warlock.  Eventually I had the warlock to level 40. Then I made a ranger and LOVED IT.  I ditched my Warlock, twinked my Ranger and got her to level 27.  At some point during this, I made a new friend and started duoing with her Warden.  Eventually we realized... why am I tanking with my ranger?! So I made a Zerker and......... OMG LOVED IT.  The Zerker hit 51.  I had always had a Defiler, but didn't play it much.  DoF came out with the Combat Update and I took my Defiler out of the vault - twinked her and...... guess what?  I love her too and have leveled her from 23 to 52 after getting my Jeweler to 60 after DoF.   Warlock had gotten a few levels, and was at 46.  Ranger sits at 28 - played her for a few after the combat update, but was much more interested in the Defiler. What's my point?  New classes are often fun =)  And not because your old class got nerfed necessarily - but because, well, come on, you have been playing it for AGES, it's gotta get old sometime.  A fresh prespective and a new way of playing can be a lot more fun.  Every new character I made has made me forget my old class.  Kind of funny that way. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

[Truffor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> SnowKnight wrote: <p>What Im getting at, is that the templar is just a chore to play, Id rather go watch paint dry.</p> <p>The conjuror is just a lot more fun, my templar used to be fun too though.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>How was the Templar "more fun"?  We took longer to solo prior to Live Update 13.  We had less options for soloing prior to Live Update 13.  So, how did Live Update 13 make Templar soloing less "fun"?</div> <div> </div> <div>If not soloing, then why the references to soloing with the conjuror? </div><hr></blockquote>!??? I hope it's a joke. Pre LU13, an OH smite + strike did   200 + (300+300) Now it's 250 + (450+150) and I'm 56 (wouhouuuu), so more. But awww, so bad, mobs have more HP at my level. oh, and guess what, with 11% avoidance instead of my old 52%, I spend more time healing myself. Anything else ?</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>That's not what I was asking.  SnowKnight specifically stated that soloing was more fun after the update with his conjuror than with his Templar.  He even went on to list what he does while soloing with his Templar.  I couldn't see anything that he's doing that was any different than what I was doing prior to the update.  </p> <p>Then again, he is level 60 now.  I can imagine that soloing with a lower level Conjuror that can still gain experience is much more fun than soloing with a Templar that cannot - even if everything else were equal.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Soloing used to be bearable because you generally didn't have much to solo. All I soloed pre-lu13 were writs and some book quests. I could get a group pretty easily since no one else was soloing either (well there were few, but they were rare). After DoF, most people were doing the solo quests. And since they did it faster than my templar,  I was in no position to get help after I realized how broken templars were. Now they are slowly returning to grouping, but are lvl 60 while my templar is lvl 55. As it is, my lvl 49 monk can do the killing part of the solo quests about four times as fast as my lvl 55 templar can. And I must say that with my monk, even fighting is fun whereas it is a true pain in the * with templar. So you got your answer even though you dont like it. Now how about commenting on your lie about faster soloing with templar, it took me 25% longer to solo post lu13 and I have told you about it in earlier threads so you truly were lying.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <P>It's not fun because it takes so long. Plain and simple. Teir 6 mobs have a lot more hp than t5 mobs, and our spells really dont get a big upgrade when we get new ones. So yes, it does in fact take longer after the revamp than before, because you are fighting mobs at a lower dps to hp ratio than you would have fighting a t5 mob. Think about it this way : On isle of refuge, my smite was almost as good as the mages lightning burst. Now my smite barely does noticeable damage. </P> <P>And being level 60 has nothing to do with not having fun, I was looking foward to getting all those old quests out of the journal.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Fair enough.  I assumed you were stating it wasn't as "fun" because the style had somehow changed post-update.  Instead, you seem to feel it's less fun because it takes longer.  </P> <P>Would that be accurate?</P> <P> </P>

[SnowKnight]

Not just longer, but MUCH longer. Not only that healing is a lot more boring, with there being just 4 main heals now. And of those 4 rarely do I need to use DH.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Now how about commenting on your lie about faster soloing with templar, it took me 25% longer to solo post lu13 and I have told you about it in earlier threads so you truly were lying.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>How am I lying?  My own fights are shorter by around 10-15% on average.  If yours are taking longer, then I'm curious as to whether that's class related or level related.  I know that group combat's shorter for me as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span>Now how about commenting on your lie about faster soloing with templar, it took me 25% longer to solo post lu13 and I have told you about it in earlier threads so you truly were lying.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>How am I lying?  My own fights are shorter by around 10-15% on average.  If yours are taking longer, then I'm curious as to whether that's class related or level related.  I know that group combat's shorter for me as well.  </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>There's something. Combat in groups in general has become so much faster.  In some ways I feel the DPS/Mob HP ratio is too high.  With enough DPS, healing becomes fairly trivial.  I can see how this would make Templars boring to play.</span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Now how about commenting on your lie about faster soloing with templar, it took me 25% longer to solo post lu13 and I have told you about it in earlier threads so you truly were lying.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>How am I lying?  My own fights are shorter by around 10-15% on average. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Lets see some parses pre ravamp and post revamp to prove this. Sorry couldnt resist you know how much you like the parses lol.<BR>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>I'll pull up some archived logs this week and do that then.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR>Ok so why did you feel the need to create another "So I rolled a and I'm having more fun now" thread?  We didn't have enough of those already?   I'm glad you are liking Conjurer and its a great class but I don't see why we needed another one of these.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You still dont understand????<BR><BR>We do it to get our templars FIXED.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>One, do you really think they care that someone has rolled another character? You're still a paying customer so this form of attention grabbing is almost pointless in that aspect.  If it makes the OP feel better *shrug* whatever floats their boat.  I just don't see why you guys can't keep posting to the threads you've already started about leaving.</P> <P>Templar isn't fun anymore has been beaten into the ground almost to China.  Its time to let the changes go and focus on what would make the class "fun" for them.  Far be it from me to say someone can't put up a "sympathy post" and want to reminisce about the "glory days" but in my opinion (and thats ALL this is) its counterproductive.   I'd LOVE to see someone besides Raijinn post over here but all the negativity keeps them away.<BR></P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR>Ok so why did you feel the need to create another "So I rolled a and I'm having more fun now" thread?  We didn't have enough of those already?   I'm glad you are liking Conjurer and its a great class but I don't see why we needed another one of these.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've seen you post this sort of harassment / attack on several threads now, trying to bully others off the forum.</P> <P>Since when did anyone need your permission to post a thread giving their personal concerns? So there are other threads? So what, he has his own take on it, and noone needs Radar-X's permission before they post.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You know its funny that everytime you respond to my posts it starts with "I've seen these attacks before..."  Maybe I should call you if I ever write a biography because you apparently are a historian when it comes to my posts.   As for "bullying people" it seems as usual you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.   I've made my peace with a number of Templars.   These are the people that can be reasonable/rational and aren't creating threads in captial letters all the time and posting FIX TEMPLARS in the spells forums.  Threads EXACTLY like yours are most likely reasons we can't get anyone but a mod to post in here.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Absolutely no one needs my permission to do a thing on these forums or anywhere else except go in my refridgerator (because I'll take your hand off for touching my snack packs).   Feel free to ride on over back to happy Furyland.</DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>The reason I post that, and have before, is because you continue to insinuate that others do not have the right to post, or to post a new thread. They do have that right.</P> <P>As for the second thinly-veiled 'get off this forum' message you have just posted to me personally in just a few minutes, on different threads, once again, who appointed you as arbiter of who can and cannot post? Why exactly would I move specifically over to 'Furyland' as you so casually put it? I've not *adventured* with my Templar now for ... ooo .. it must be almost 4 weeks now, and I doubt I will very much until the class is fixed to the point that I do not feel a burden on friends as a Templar, but that does not stop me caring very much about OUR class and OUR community (that includes me in that).... even if you do not care at all.</P> <P>[-removed next bit, im wasting breathe-]</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [39 Fury]</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:45 PM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>OOC.</P> <P>The reason I post that, and have before, is because you continue to insinuate that others do not have the right to post, or to post a new thread. They do have that right.</P> <P>As for the second thinly-veiled 'get off this forum' message you have just posted to me personally in just a few minutes, on different threads, once again, who appointed you as arbiter of who can and cannot post? Why exactly would I move specifically over to 'Furyland' as you so casually put it? I've not *adventured* with my Templar now for ... ooo .. it must be almost 4 weeks now, and I doubt I will very much until the class is fixed to the point that I do not feel a burden on friends as a Templar, but that does not stop me caring very much about OUR class and OUR community (that includes me in that).... even if you do not care at all.</P> <P>[-removed next bit, im wasting breathe-]</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [39 Fury]</P> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>11-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:45 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The "insuations" you see are in YOUR opinion.  Every single person that plays EQ2 can at the whim of SOE to post on these forums and there is nothing I can or would care to do about it.  You are incorrect though on your last statement.  No one has the "right" to post anywhere.  Its a privelege granted to those with active accounts.</P> <P>The second thinly veiled post?   Was it really thinly veiled?  I thought I was more blunt.  You were apparently so happy in Furyland awhile ago you decided to come back and post about what a great time you were having and wishing we were there.  How about sending a post card next time?</P> <DIV>I've fortunately found out that OUR community has some very intelligent people that can present their ideas in a way other than pretentious arrogance.  Even when I don't disagree with them I can respect their view.  Even people that I know for a fact I irritate (Timaarit for example) can at least hold an intelligent arguement and I respect that.   I've spent weeks toning back how I respond and making peace with other Templars in an effort to show them I'm not the ignorant forum troll I'm made out to be.   The list of people who blatantly loathe me gets shorter and shorter but even most of those people I respect.  OUR community needs to put aside its differences and stop biting each other long enough to get something done.</DIV>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote to Caethre:  Threads EXACTLY like yours are most likely reasons we can't get anyone but a mod to post in here.  <hr></blockquote> Maybe a lot of threads wouldn't degenerate into bickering if the devs would post something now and then letting people know what their opinions are of the class at the moment.  Obviously a lot of people here are simply turned off by a particular poster who seemingly has no ability whatsoever to interact with others gracefully, but beyond that I think a big part of the problem is simply frustration.  I think people would like to have a dev come in here and say, once and for all, either "Templars are now working as we would like them to" or "Templars have issues with dps/utility/soloing/whatever that we are currently investigating". I really don't think it's too much to expect a dev, designer, or someone to check in and say one way or the other.</span><div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KingOfF00LS wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote to Caethre:<BR><BR> Threads EXACTLY like yours are most likely reasons we can't get anyone but a mod to post in here.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe a lot of threads wouldn't degenerate into bickering if the devs would post something now and then letting people know what their opinions are of the class at the moment.  Obviously a lot of people here are simply turned off by a particular poster who seemingly has no ability whatsoever to interact with others gracefully, but beyond that I think a big part of the problem is simply frustration.  I think people would like to have a dev come in here and say, once and for all, either "Templars are now working as we would like them to" or "Templars have issues with dps/utility/soloing/whatever that we are currently investigating".<BR><BR>I really don't think it's too much to expect a dev, designer, or someone to check in and say one way or the other.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I understand everyone is frustrated and I can sympathize with probably 75% of it but why would a Dev wander in here?  Go look at the other forums and you'll see most of them are relatively peaceful in comparison to ours.  I don't know about you but I'd rather deal with a dissatisfied customer than an angry one.   As for Templars being where they should be *shrug* all classes are going to constantly have tweaks done to them.   They aren't going to make a definitive statement.  I asked Lockeye in September if he thought our spells were where he thought we should be and he said "for the most part yes."  Obviously based on the changes we've been seeing there is still work to be done.</P> <P>The point is if we create a hostlie environment, we aren't providing them with any motivation to post in here.   Its almost like they are up in a tree with a pack of wild dogs at the base.   The tone of this area of the fourms HAS gotten better since LU#13 but if we can all try and be more civil (and that includes me by the way) and intelligent in our posting I think we can really get something accomplished.</P><p>Message Edited by Radar-X on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote: <p>I understand everyone is frustrated and I can sympathize with probably 75% of it but why would a Dev wander in here?  Go look at the other forums and you'll see most of them are relatively peaceful in comparison to ours.  </p> <hr></blockquote>I go to other forums rarely, so I can't really compare.  But I would think someone would understand that their absence only aggravates the situation.  Has a lack of attempt at communication ever solved any problem?</span><span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<p>As for Templars being where they should be *shrug* all classes are going to constantly have tweaks done to them.   They aren't going to make a definitive statement.  I asked Lockeye in September if he thought our spells were where he thought we should be and he said "for the most part yes."  Obviously based on the changes we've been seeing there is still work to be done. </p><hr></blockquote>I'm not expecting (and I seriously doubt anyone else is expecting) a dev to come here and give an exact, non-waivering outline of every single thing that should be done to the class or to guarantee that nothing will ever be changed again.  But that doesn't mean they can't offer up general thoughts along the lines of what I mentioned earlier: DevA says:  "Soloing seems to be more painful than we had envisioned for the class.  I won't get into any details on how, but we're investigating different methods on enhancing the solo abilities of Templars." I don't think that's a particularly difficult statement for someone to make.</span><span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<p>The tone of this area of the fourms HAS gotten better since LU#13 but if we can all try and be more civil (and that includes me by the way) and intelligent in our posting I think we can really get something accomplished. <span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>I really have no basis of comparison as I was gone for many months prior to LU13, so it wouldn't be fair for me to comment about the difference in tone here. </span><div></div>

[Nari]

I still believe that people here would not be as flamey if someone didn't blatantly invite it. I wrote more, but it was even more pointless than the above statement. <div></div>

[notxab]

Radar-X is the meanest female robot you will ever meet. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Caethre wrote: <div></div>OOC. <blockquote> <hr> Radar-X wrote:Ok so why did you feel the need to create another "So I rolled a and I'm having more fun now" thread?  We didn't have enough of those already?   I'm glad you are liking Conjurer and its a great class but I don't see why we needed another one of these. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I've seen you post this sort of harassment / attack on several threads now, trying to bully others off the forum.</p> <p>Since when did anyone need your permission to post a thread giving their personal concerns? So there are other threads? So what, he has his own take on it, and noone needs Radar-X's permission before they post.</p> <hr> </blockquote>You know its funny that everytime you respond to my posts it starts with "I've seen these attacks before..."  Maybe I should call you if I ever write a biography because you apparently are a historian when it comes to my posts.   As for "bullying people" it seems as usual you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.   I've made my peace with a number of Templars.   These are the people that can be reasonable/rational and aren't creating threads in captial letters all the time and posting FIX TEMPLARS in the spells forums.  Threads EXACTLY like yours are most likely reasons we can't get anyone but a mod to post in here. <div> </div> <div>Absolutely no one needs my permission to do a thing on these forums or anywhere else except go in my refridgerator (because I'll take your hand off for touching my snack packs).   Feel free to ride on over back to happy Furyland.</div><hr></blockquote>I actually think she is the one who is rather bullying in her posts... in a stifling kind of way.  I mean, supposedly *I* can't post here because I don't play a Templar and therefore cannot have an opinion on Templar issues without an ulterior motive of some kind.</span><div></div>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Troga wrote:<BR> for a steady flow of xp i rarely need the dps of the second class. my templar( i play both) is perfect for what i need her.<BR>buffs, heal, debuff, 'nuke', trigger chains. ofc it might be 'different' with a fury or warden. maybe the mobs would die in<BR>20 secs instead of 40(no thanks, costs to much power for a steady xp flow).<BR>all i dont get here is the posts of what others have and do and we dont, most threat i ve read has ended up in some kind<BR>of they got this and we cant do that....<BR>got me now maybe? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>what about a spell list? traits list? wisdom at max(spells get bonus)?<BR>ofc u could have said make one yourself..<BR>stuff like that i am looking for, bugs and so on. not pointing out what u cant do.....<BR>maybe i just didnt find the usefull stuff in all of the usefull "we cant do any dps"  or "just start reroll" threats.<BR>oh and why the heck are there some multi threats on the same topic? hehe<BR><BR>this threat tells u go and make a different class if u want dps....okay! maybe i didnt understand the post/topic!<BR><BR>and leave my bubble alone! i burst it myself lol<BR>jk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR>edit: wait! i just figured! dps support?! lol my conjuror( again i play both) is great at dps! thanks i dont need support at it!<BR>my bubble! my bubble! pls leave it alone!<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Troga on <SPAN class=date_text>11-16-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:02 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If your having fun cool ! Enjoy ! If you want to increase the rate that you gain exp by a whole lot try their suggestions if being inefficient dosent bother you ...hey what ever floats your boat . Its a game and its only a good one if your having fun ! GL HF <DIV> </DIV>

[BenEm]

I am also seeing about 25% more time to kill since LU13 ...Thats at 3 levs higher fighting the same mobs though so its prolly more like 30 to 35% longer . Which makes sence due to additional HP's

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <P>It's not fun because it takes so long. Plain and simple. Teir 6 mobs have a lot more hp than t5 mobs, and our spells really dont get a big upgrade when we get new ones. So yes, it does in fact take longer after the revamp than before, because you are fighting mobs at a lower dps to hp ratio than you would have fighting a t5 mob. Think about it this way : On isle of refuge, my smite was almost as good as the mages lightning burst. Now my smite barely does noticeable damage. </P> <P>And being level 60 has nothing to do with not having fun, I was looking foward to getting all those old quests out of the journal.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>SnowKnight notices something that's rarely pinpointed to the wall, even though it's often alluded to.  She's correct in the observation that we do much more damage at earlier levels for white cons then we do later on mobs of equal par.  The same goes for healing spells as well.  It appears that the higher we level, the less the return.  Again, this is intentional as they expect you to solo at earlier levels and group at later ones; in which case, if you gained improvements at the same ratio consistently, with 6 archetypes, you would slaughter the game quite easily.  So unless they review those 6 again and make changes, I don't expect the individual archetype to be anything more then it is now - bland.

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Good points all around.  I'd like to add in a personal experience I had the other night.  My Wizard is my alt.  He's level 51 at the moment and spends alot of time in Sinking Sands harvesting around the wall because he can clear the encounters there so easily.  Basically group encounter xp bonus combined with occasionally harvesting a rare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After being frustrated with my Templar soloing, I decided to play my Wizard more.  He's just more fun to play when you want to wander off and do something by yourself.  So, I'm there at the wall near Clefts and Orc Highway doing my spawn clearing and harvesting thing.  And I see a little gnome Inquisitor trying to solo highwaymen for Carpet 1.  I keep an eye on him just to compare our rates of killing off encounters.  I look over, the Inquisitor has his solo no arrow encounter at 50 percent.  I target my multi-mob encounter, AE nuke,  Damage Shield, AE nuke and the encounter is dead.  I look over and the little Inquisitor is still fighting the same no-arrow solo encounter.  Not to mention he's attracted a few orc adds.  I see that he might be in a bit of trouble, walk over and 2-3 nuke each of his adds off and return to my harvesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At that point, I had an Inquisitor friend for the life of the game hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could see what was happening.  He was being stunned/stifled and interrupted alot.  And, much like my Templar, he just couldn't put out enough dps to end the encounter before roamers started getting close.  I kept an eye on him while out there and watched him die a few times and run several because of his lack to end an encounter before roamers aggroed.  Unfortunately, I wasn't close enough in those instances to help out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not a Templar thing.  It's a cleric archetype thing.  Hell, it may be a Cleric, Warden, Shaman thing.  Soloing is not only slow... it's extremely frustrating for most priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span>Now how about commenting on your lie about faster soloing with templar, it took me 25% longer to solo post lu13 and I have told you about it in earlier threads so you truly were lying.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>How am I lying?  My own fights are shorter by around 10-15% on average.  If yours are taking longer, then I'm curious as to whether that's class related or level related.  I know that group combat's shorter for me as well.  </div> <hr></blockquote>Well mine are now 30 to 40% shorter than right after LU13 meaning 10 to 15% shorter than pre lu13, so what is your point? But then again I am 5 levels higher and have upgraded my spells to adept III's. And note, this 30 to 40% increase is against the exactly same solo mob in Lavastorm. I was 20 to 25% slower immediately after update. And agains groups this difference is even bigger due interruptions and stuns. Thus I never fight a group with my templar unless I am grouped. You brought this up now and I bet you dont even remember about things right after LU13. But I do. You see I had a nice cycle for making writs and I used it with minor adjustments post LU13. And I had to make one extra repeat of DoT - HO - smite - smite -smite to kill the same stuff. And that means over 9 seconds longer fight (9 is the combined cast time, add recasts, interrupts, fizzles and your own reaction times and you have the right time). But then again, you dont solo so how would you know, you are great in group.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>But then again, you dont solo so how would you know, you are great in group.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, it's either Kaylena telling me I solo too much for my opinion to matter or it's you telling me I don't solo at all?  ...or is it Caethre telling me I raid all the time or Kaylena telling me I never raid?  Are we going to bring up my postcout this time to determine why my opinions don't matter?  How about my forum title (which is generic and anyone can gain)?</P> <P>It's never about my arguments or my opinions...always about me.  Why am I so threatening to some of you?  If you think my points aren't good, either refute them or ignore them.  Why spend so much effort and time working on ways to point out why I personally should not be listened to, I wonder? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>You brought this up now and I bet you dont even remember about things right after LU13. But I do. You see I had a nice cycle for making writs and I used it with minor adjustments post LU13. And I had to make one extra repeat of DoT - HO - smite - smite -smite to kill the same stuff. And that means over 9 seconds longer fight (9 is the combined cast time, add recasts, interrupts, fizzles and your own reaction times and you have the right time).</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To address the point, of course I remember how things were right after Live Update 13.  I was running around on Desert of Flames Beta since day one - when camels looked like elephants (they hadn't yet put the new models in) and the arena was right by the Maj'Dul entrance.  I was filing feedbacks and bug reports right up till release, just like the rest of my guildmates there.  We were soloing and grouping in Desert of Flames and watching daily (sometimes multiple daily) patches fix issues we'd only brought up a day or two earlier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <p>So, it's either Kaylena telling me I solo too much for my opinion to matter or it's you telling me I don't solo at all?  ...or is it Caethre telling me I raid all the time or Kaylena telling me I never raid?  Are we going to bring up my postcout this time to determine why my opinions don't matter?  How about my forum title (which is generic and anyone can gain)?</p> <p>It's never about my arguments or my opinions...always about me.  Why am I so threatening to some of you?  If you think my points aren't good, either refute them or ignore them.  Why spend so much effort and time working on ways to point out why I personally should not be listened to, I wonder? </p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Lol you are not threatening, just plain annoying. You have actually no points in your posts, you copy other ideas and post them as your own, you make statements about our class in comparison to furies and it turned out that you have no idea what kind of class furies are. I didn't bring your postcount up, you did. To me the amount of post means nothign, it is the things you say in the posts. So far all you have said, has been "we are great in groups". Which, while it is true, also applies to 5 other priest classes.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <div>To address the point, of course I remember how things were right after Live Update 13.  I was running around on Desert of Flames Beta since day one - when camels looked like elephants (they hadn't yet put the new models in) and the arena was right by the Maj'Dul entrance.  I was filing feedbacks and bug reports right up till release, just like the rest of my guildmates there.  We were soloing and grouping in Desert of Flames and watching daily (sometimes multiple daily) patches fix issues we'd only brought up a day or two earlier.</div><><><hr></blockquote>So basically you didnt solo at all after they revamped the whole system 2 days before launching DoF. Thank you for proving me right.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>To address the point, of course I remember how things were right after Live Update 13.  I was running around on Desert of Flames Beta since day one - when camels looked like elephants (they hadn't yet put the new models in) and the arena was right by the Maj'Dul entrance.  I was filing feedbacks and bug reports right up till release, just like the rest of my guildmates there.  <FONT color=#ff9900><U><EM><FONT size=5><STRONG>We were soloing</STRONG> </FONT></EM></U></FONT>and grouping in Desert of Flames and watching daily (sometimes multiple daily) patches fix issues we'd only brought up a day or two earlier.</DIV><><> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So basically you didnt solo at all after they revamped the whole system 2 days before launching DoF. Thank you for proving me right.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Kendricke wrote: <div>To address the point, of course I remember how things were right after Live Update 13. <font size="6"><b> I was running around on Desert of Flames <i><u><font color="#ffff00">Beta</font></u></i> since day one</b></font> - when camels looked like elephants (they hadn't yet put the new models in) and the arena was right by the Maj'Dul entrance.  I was filing feedbacks and bug reports right up till release, just like the rest of my guildmates there.  <font color="#ff9900"><u><em><font size="5"><strong>We were soloing</strong> </font></em></u></font>and grouping in Desert of Flames and watching daily (sometimes multiple daily) patches fix issues we'd only brought up a day or two earlier.</div><><> <hr> </blockquote>So basically you didnt solo at all after they revamped the whole system 2 days before launching DoF. Thank you for proving me right.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P>Yes, I ran around in Beta.  I also ran around on Test (and still do).  I was also running around on a live server (Guk) just prior and after the release of Live Update 13.</P> <P>Just because I was on Beta does not mean I am unaware of what it is to solo just prior and just after the revamp.  I was fighting the same creatures in Everfrost during the Beta for live/beta comparisons and then for before/after comparisons.  Several of the Templars in Beta did the same. </P> <P> </P>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <p>Several of the Templars in Beta did the same. </p> <hr></blockquote>So exactly how many is several?  Who are they? How does it feel, now?</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Several of the Templars in Beta did the same. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So exactly how many is several?  Who are they?<BR><BR>How does it feel, now?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm not hearing significant complaints from most of the Templars I was in Beta with.  I am hearing complaints from those who raid high end content who were in Beta, however.  There are still some questions regarding changes that were made during the Beta, and then at Live Update 13.  There were literally dozens of Templars in the Beta test.  Easily over a hundred were posting on the Beta forums.  Within my own guild we had more than a few.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were ebbs and flows throughout the Beta, eventually coming to what we saw with the Live Update...which frankly was much better than I was expecting from just a week earlier on Test.  There were times on Test that I coudn't solo...at all.  Greens were demolishing me at certain points in the Beta.  Eventually, this was toned down and NPC health was cut back dramatically to shorten fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's when things became noticeably different.  Yes, my DPS dropped on parses, but fights were still taking less time due to the new structure of cons and target health. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least, that's my observations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <p>Yes, I ran around in Beta.  I also ran around on Test (and still do).  I was also running around on a live server (Guk) just prior and after the release of Live Update 13.</p> <p>Just because I was on Beta does not mean I am unaware of what it is to solo just prior and just after the revamp.  I was fighting the same creatures in Everfrost during the Beta for live/beta comparisons and then for before/after comparisons.  Several of the Templars in Beta did the same. </p> <hr></blockquote>Well you incorrect statement about faster soloing proves that you have not soloed since the total revamp just before putting DoF live. Every single other templar I have talked to has noticed similar thing as I have. That soloing takes longer than pre lu13.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P>I don't know what you want to hear.  My soloing is quicker...just as group kills are quicker.  </P> <P>Just as some Templars claim it takes 5 minutes* to kill a target while it takes me just 35-65 seconds typically, I'm going to have to chalk it up to variances in playstyle.  Sure there's classes that solo faster than I do.  That hasn't changed at all.  However, my own fights are going quicker on average.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=1>*- Just yesterday a Templar claimed it takes 10 minutes to kill a solo target.</FONT></P>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Have to go with Timaarit on this one. Post LU13 I quickly discovered that I could no longer solo the highest tier of mobs that I had previously been soloing, i.e., reds. I would call that a lot slower =) As for anything below the highest I had been doing, I could still do it but the higher ones were a bit more difficult, i.e., slower. It really wasn’t a big deal to me though, as I am not in a rush when I solo so a few seconds one way or the other doesn’t concern me. What it prompted me to do was go upgrade my equipment and spells somewhat so I could go back to killing the higher stuff, and that worked pretty well, although reds remained almost impossible (as they should be, IMO), and some oranges were still more of a dice roll than pre LU13. <P>No, it doesn’t ever take me 5 minutes to kill anything =) The longest possible fight is going to be a high HP mob, generally a heroic, where I’m going to run out of mana if I try to nuke it down, so I have to just heal myself and kill it with a DS and a wand ... oh yeah, and my melee <chuckle></P></DIV>

[SnowKnight]

<P>Just thought Id add...</P> <P>In beta templars go sactuary or something, and spell that dealt aoe damage over time, and paladins got divine arbitration. At the very last minute these spells were swapped between the classes. So of course there wernt any complaints about soloing in beta, you were all aoe for 150 every 2 seconds. IMO that spell is all wed need to fix our dps problems, I cant see why they didnt just leave it as is. At the moment we miss out and a awesome aoe spell, and get some dodgy divine arbitration which doesnt even work properly (ie bugged).</P>