Templar have 3 instant heals. Fury class has 4.

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>We both have single hand icon heals (small direct heal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both have double hand icon heals (large direct heal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both have group heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furies get an ancient direct heal on a separate timer from those spells, with an 11.5 second recast timer.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Yeah, and you thought something was going to be fair and balanced or something.</P> <P>Look in case you have not figured it out yet, a developer started a healer, he chose Fury. So, like certain tank classes, everybody else becomes garbage and the devs played classes become awesome. </P> <P>Look for a little while Templars were the best just like Guardians were the best. Those days are gone. Do you hear that noise? That is the sound of hundreds of Templars dreams being flushed down the toilet. Maybe one day we will get fixed. I doubt it. Maybe one day I can hope to solo and group heal as well as a Fury, I doubt it. Maybe one day they will balance everything, I doubt it though. </P> <P>But I can tell you one thing, the odds of me playing past February are slim without a MAJOR fix to Templars and maybe a dev to come in here and address an issue instead of just haxxoring posts because he doesnt like a. doing his job and being a Community Manager, or b. doesnt like what I have to say. </P> <P>Well it doesnt matter, in a couple hours this post will be haxxored as well.</P>

[Formangenavn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Yeah, and you thought something was going to be fair and balanced or something.</P> <P>Look in case you have not figured it out yet, a developer started a healer, he chose Fury. So, like certain tank classes, everybody else becomes garbage and the devs played classes become awesome. </P> <P>Look for a little while Templars were the best just like Guardians were the best. Those days are gone. Do you hear that noise? That is the sound of hundreds of Templars dreams being flushed down the toilet. Maybe one day we will get fixed. I doubt it. Maybe one day I can hope to solo and group heal as well as a Fury, I doubt it. Maybe one day they will balance everything, I doubt it though. </P> <P>But I can tell you one thing, the odds of me playing past February are slim without a MAJOR fix to Templars and maybe a dev to come in here and address an issue instead of just haxxoring posts because he doesnt like a. doing his job and being a Community Manager, or b. doesnt like what I have to say. </P> <P>Well it doesnt matter, in a couple hours this post will be haxxored as well.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This must mean that for an entire year devs played Templars, right? They must have, since they where the best. Just following your logic here. Maby you should focus on getting devs to play Templar again? Just a thought :smileyvery-happy:

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Formangenavn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Yeah, and you thought something was going to be fair and balanced or something.</P> <P>Look in case you have not figured it out yet, a developer started a healer, he chose Fury. So, like certain tank classes, everybody else becomes garbage and the devs played classes become awesome. </P> <P>Look for a little while Templars were the best just like Guardians were the best. Those days are gone. Do you hear that noise? That is the sound of hundreds of Templars dreams being flushed down the toilet. Maybe one day we will get fixed. I doubt it. Maybe one day I can hope to solo and group heal as well as a Fury, I doubt it. Maybe one day they will balance everything, I doubt it though. </P> <P>But I can tell you one thing, the odds of me playing past February are slim without a MAJOR fix to Templars and maybe a dev to come in here and address an issue instead of just haxxoring posts because he doesnt like a. doing his job and being a Community Manager, or b. doesnt like what I have to say. </P> <P>Well it doesnt matter, in a couple hours this post will be haxxored as well.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This must mean that for an entire year devs played Templars, right? They must have, since they where the best. Just following your logic here. Maby you should focus on getting devs to play Templar again? Just a thought :smileyvery-happy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No it means for a year they had no idea what was going on with any of the healers, kinda like how it is right now except for druid issues.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>We both have single hand icon heals (small direct heal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both have double hand icon heals (large direct heal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both have group heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furies get an ancient direct heal on a separate timer from those spells, with an 11.5 second recast timer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Templars get Reverence where Furies get Back into the Fray.  Both are situational heal spells which are able to help deal with short term burst damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Furies have to rely on instant heals for burst damage.  Templars can rely upon reactives and instant heals. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>We both have single hand icon heals (small direct heal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both have double hand icon heals (large direct heal).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both have group heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furies get an ancient direct heal on a separate timer from those spells, with an 11.5 second recast timer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Templars get Reverence where Furies get Back into the Fray.  Both are situational heal spells which are able to help deal with short term burst damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Furies have to rely on instant heals for burst damage.  Templars can rely upon reactives and instant heals. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Which completely ignores the fact that furies are the only class who can react with their specialty heal to damage that has already happened. Templars are stuck using only their 2 direct heals and group heal.

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>Please post facts only kendrike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drama is not welcome on my thread.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>Please use facts only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drama is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reverence is 10 minute recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 minutes vs 11.5 seconds.</DIV>

[Kiara-]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Devs do not favour the classes they play over other classes.  It's insulting to suggest so as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>I haven't compared the spell lists, but if in fact one healing subclass has one more viable heal than another then it is unbalanced and should be looked into.  And I'm sure that if this information is accurate, that the devs will look into it for balancing issues.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>But once again, these things take time and require a little bit of patience.  They can't work miracles.  I'm sure that if things truly are unbalanced in this regard, that they will fix it as soon as they possibly can.  There are a lot of other classes than Templars though, and they can't focus just on one class at a time or it would take them forever to do it all.  They'll get to us.  Just have a little faith.  We are clerics after all <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Formangenavn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Formangenavn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Yeah, and you thought something was going to be fair and balanced or something.</P> <P>Look in case you have not figured it out yet, a developer started a healer, he chose Fury. So, like certain tank classes, everybody else becomes garbage and the devs played classes become awesome. </P> <P>Look for a little while Templars were the best just like Guardians were the best. Those days are gone. Do you hear that noise? That is the sound of hundreds of Templars dreams being flushed down the toilet. Maybe one day we will get fixed. I doubt it. Maybe one day I can hope to solo and group heal as well as a Fury, I doubt it. Maybe one day they will balance everything, I doubt it though. </P> <P>But I can tell you one thing, the odds of me playing past February are slim without a MAJOR fix to Templars and maybe a dev to come in here and address an issue instead of just haxxoring posts because he doesnt like a. doing his job and being a Community Manager, or b. doesnt like what I have to say. </P> <P>Well it doesnt matter, in a couple hours this post will be haxxored as well.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This must mean that for an entire year devs played Templars, right? They must have, since they where the best. Just following your logic here. Maby you should focus on getting devs to play Templar again? Just a thought :smileyvery-happy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No it means for a year they had no idea what was going on with any of the healers, kinda like how it is right now except for druid issues. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Man, you must think of your self as omnipotent, and so must nullcodehere, since he thinks Ken is not stating facts but you are. </P> <P>Some people are more vocal then whats good for them, and certainly whats good for the forums.</P>

[Ember]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>Please use facts only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drama is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reverence is 10 minute recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 minutes vs 11.5 seconds.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#339966>Templar 52 Reverence For a short duration, whenever target ally spends power, some of their health is replenished. The more power spent increases the amount of health replenished</FONT></P> <P>It is not 10 minute cast time.</P> <DIV>Reverence at Adept 3 is:</DIV> <DIV>Cast time: 1.5 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Recovery: 0.5 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Recast: <STRONG>15.0 seconds</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Duration: 15.0 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Effect:  140% of power spent = health healed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the Furies get for their special spell:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>Fury 52 Back into the Fray Replenishes target ally's health. If target ally is under 50% health, the amount replenished is doubled. This spell cannot be cast on the fury</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know how much it heals for.  I know that our direct heals are slower then theirs but heal for a lot more.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ember on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>Please post facts only kendrike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drama is not welcome on my thread.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What I posted <EM>is</EM> fact.  </P> <P>I'm curious where you're getting your numbers from.  Reverence does not have a 10 minute recast.  Back into the Fray does not have an 11.5 second recast.  At least not at Adept III.  I'm looking at my fiance's 52 Fury on her screen and my level 53 Templar on mine.  </P> <P>At level 52, Templars get Reverence which is a 15 second duration, 15 second recast spell with a short cast time.  At Adept III, it heals 140% of the power used by the target.  </P> <P>At level 52, Furies get Back into the Fray, which heals for 625-764 health, unless the target has less than 50% total health in which case the spell heals for double effect.  Furies cannot heal themselves with this spell.  It has a 6.0 second recast time at Adept III with a 1.5 second casting time.</P> <P>One's a direct heal.  The other is more of a reactive heal.  Considering that Furies rely upon instant heals for dealing with burst damage, it's an almost necessary spell for their class at that level of play.  Clerics have more tools to deal with immediate damage than Furies, counting our utility heals and our reactives (which by their very nature, adapt to heal as quickly as the target's taking damage).  By stacking group and single target reactives, Templars can heal a great deal of damage in a short amount of time. </P> <P>There's strengths and weaknesses to both classes, when you get down to it.  Pick and choose the strengths and weaknesses that work best for your style of play.  </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 PM</span>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>Please use facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 1:</DIV> <DIV>Back to the Fray heals for about 2k.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 2:</DIV> <DIV>Reverence generates twice as much aggro as Back to the Fray</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 3:</DIV> <DIV>Drama is not welcome on this thread.</DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Omg are you a joke?</P> <P> </P> <P>You demand facts in omg your thread then you post Reverance has a 10min recast timer, wtg you dont know your spells!</P> <P>Then you say Reverance generates twice as much aggro as back into the fray? erm what? Reverance doesnt count as you healing them, no numbers go up and there is nothing counting off saying your reverance heals blah for blah, it basically turns their mana used into extra hp regen with no extra aggro, its not a great spell but its nothing like your "facts"</P> <P>And fact you want no drama in your thread? rofl your the one creating all the drama!</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<span><blockquote><hr>nullcodehere wrote:<div>Please use facts.</div> <div> </div> <div>Fact 1:</div> <div>Back to the Fray heals for about 2k.</div> <div> </div> <div>Fact 2:</div> <div>Reverence generates twice as much aggro as Back to the Fray</div> <div> </div> <div>Fact 3:</div> <div>Drama is not welcome on this thread.</div><hr></blockquote>Fact 4:  You don't own the boards so you can't really dictate who is welcome on the thread. I'm still poking around with my Fury to see what the big deal is with them so I'm guessing I'll find out about all these instant heals later.</span><div></div>

[Goozman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>Please use facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 1:</DIV> <DIV>Back to the Fray heals for about 2k.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 2:</DIV> <DIV>Reverence generates twice as much aggro as Back to the Fray</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 3:</DIV> <DIV>Drama is not welcome on this thread.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Main Entry: <B>fact</B><BR>Function: <I>noun</I><BR><B>1</B> <B>:</B> something that has actual existence <B>:</B> a matter of objective reality<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If facts are indeed what you want on your thread, you need to stop posting, because you haven't posted one yet.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.legion-whiterose.com/screenshots/spells/spell-reverence.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.legion-whiterose.com/screenshots/spells/spell-back_into_the_fray.jpg"></DIV></DIV>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>Fact 5:</DIV> <DIV>Not everyone sees the same numbers when looking at a spell scroll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 6:</DIV> <DIV>The fury spell scroll is red.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 7:</DIV> <DIV>Your opinions on aggro cannot be counted as facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 8:</DIV> <DIV>Emotional drama and hate just makes your argument look bad.</DIV>

[Skydude]

<P>Wow 6 second recast? Give me that and I'd be a happy lvl 58 Templar <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>@ 420 Wisdom our big heal is still 1224 max on a 6 second timer. 1.5 second cast time leaves a very small threshold for interrupt also. The variation would be welcome if I could even see an average of 1200 every 6 seconds on Darathar <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I doubt any other priest class has anything close to being that sweet. If the tanks in trouble, whoomp there it is, if not hey easy does it and cast another. LOL thanks for poiting that out Kendricke.</P> <P>Basically I don't even think those are two spells that can be compared as they work completely different.</P>

[Generi]

<P>hi all,</P> <P>the unbalance issue is as follows between Reverence and Back into the Frey:</P> <P>Let's assume we're raiding.  A templar and a fury as looked as an spot healer out of MT grp. Both templar's and fury offers the small and large direct heals, and single target regen/reactives.  But, Reverence can not be casted out of grp, Back into the Frey can, and it's an overwhelming advantage for the fury over a templar, especially with an extra  fast casting , fast recast, low mana large heal.  There is currently no heal class that can match the heal output of a fury as a secondary healer out of MT grp.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>Fact 5:</DIV> <DIV>Not everyone sees the same numbers when looking at a spell scroll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 6:</DIV> <DIV>The fury spell scroll is red.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 7:</DIV> <DIV>Your opinions on aggro cannot be counted as facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact 8:</DIV> <DIV>Emotional drama and hate just makes your argument look bad.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><BR>Fact 5 response:  Heals are identical across wisdom and class lines so far as I've been able to observe.  That's why every Cleric sees 140% on an Adept III Reverence, and why the numbers I see on Fury's Back into the Fray are <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=8728&#M8728" target=_blank>the same Furies see</A>.</P> <P>Fact 6 response:  I'm a Templar.  Therefore any spell which is not a Templar's will show as red to me.  I did ask a Fury in my guild if the numbers I saw were the same she saw.  The numbers were identical.</P> <P>Fact 7 response:  I stated no opinions on aggro.  I'd be curious to know what facts you're using to base your own opinion on aggro upon, though.</P> <P>Fact 8 response:  My post was two screenshots without commentary.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>So far, you've provided several conclusions that are far from factual.  Reverence does not have a 10 minute recast timer.  Back into the Fray does not heal for 2000.  Back into the Fray does not have an 11.5 second recast timer.  I see nothing listed on either spell which lists hate generation, nor would I even be aware of any way to test whether one spell creates "twice the aggro" of the other. </P> <P>I appreciate that you're attempting to ask for facts.  However, I'm curious what source you are using to come up with your own facts. </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Generis2 wrote:<BR> <P>hi all,</P> <P>the unbalance issue is as follows between Reverence and Back into the Frey:</P> <P>Let's assume we're raiding.  A templar and a fury as looked as an spot healer out of MT grp. Both templar's and fury offers the small and large direct heals, and single target regen/reactives.  But, Reverence can not be casted out of grp, Back into the Frey can, and it's an overwhelming advantage for the fury over a templar, especially with an extra  fast casting , fast recast, low mana large heal.  There is currently no heal class that can match the heal output of a fury as a secondary healer out of MT grp.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'll agree with that assessment.  Furies are incredible spot healers in secondary groups, especially when coordinated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <div>Templars get Reverence where Furies get Back into the Fray.  Both are situational heal spells which are able to help deal with short term burst damage. </div> <div> </div> <div>Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Furies have to rely on instant heals for burst damage.  Templars can rely upon reactives and instant heals. </div> <hr></blockquote>And Reverence just got - SUPRICE!!!! - ninja nerfed. Of course. Since it is a templar spell. And not so good even to begin with. And btw., this is ignoring the fact that templars must use direct heals to heal big damage. Furies can trust their HoT's. So again, you dont have a clue. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Faithes]

I'd like to say that if your gonna tell people what to and what not to post in your thread, like how you told someone to only post facts and then not post facts yourself, then your better off being quiet. <div></div>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>nullcodehere wrote:<div>Fact 5:</div> <div>Not everyone sees the same numbers when looking at a spell scroll. <font color="#6633ff">Fact 5a: Only when a stat such as STR / INT affects how much damage a spell does. Heals do not use Wisdom, they are based off spell quality. </font><font color="#6633ff"><span>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=8236</span></font> <span></span> </div> <div>Fact 6:</div> <div>The fury spell scroll is red. <font color="#6633ff">Yep.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Fact 7:</div> <div>Your opinions on aggro cannot be counted as facts. <font color="#6633ff">Fact 7a: There is no in-game or thrid part utility to accurately mesaure hate. It's always a touch an go scenario, as we have no idea how much hate is generated per hp healed or per point of damage. So that nullifies your opinion as a fact too.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Fact 8:</div> <div>Emotional drama and hate just makes your argument look bad.</div> <font color="#6633ff">Fact 8a: Posting incorrect data and a lack of understanding / proof of in-game dynamics makes an argument look bad. </font><hr></blockquote>I must back up Kendrike, as I usually do, sorry friend =D Also, many people are hypocritical... They ask for more class defining abilities and specialty spells available only to that particular class. Sony gives us them, players ignore their new or old class defining spells, see another classes defining spells, call them unfair and cry nerf. It's just sickening. </span><div></div>

[Supernova17]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <div>Templars get Reverence where Furies get Back into the Fray.  Both are situational heal spells which are able to help deal with short term burst damage. </div> <div> </div> <div>Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Furies have to rely on instant heals for burst damage.  Templars can rely upon reactives and instant heals. </div> <hr></blockquote> And btw., this is ignoring the fact <u>that templars must use direct heals to heal big damage. Furies can trust their HoT's</u>. So again, you dont have a clue. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class="date_text">11-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:08 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Situational and depends on Plate or Avoidance based tank. Seeing as you play a Templar and not a Fury, while I play both classes I will go so far as to say that you do not understand HoT's in serious situations, they work, but not as well as you seem to think. Personal attacks are not tolerated, especially when "you have no clue" is un-called for in such a discussion. *flags down Raijian* =D </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Supernova17 on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Supernova17 wrote<span> Situational and depends on Plate or Avoidance based tank. Seeing as you play a Templar and not a Fury, while I play both classes I will go so far as to say that you do not understand HoT's in serious situations, they work, but not as well as you seem to think. Personal attacks are not tolerated, especially when "you have no clue" is un-called for in such a discussion. *flags down Raijian* =D</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Supernova17 on <span class="date_text">11-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Fact is that HoT's work with avoidance tanks far better than anything templar has. Fact is that HoT's work in normal situations far better than reactives with any kind of tank. Fact is also that when mt gets lots of add, reactives work better. So Kend ignored many facts himself in his post. Thus it was not a personal attack but a fact.</span><div></div>

[ADW123]

<DIV>In my opinion Reverance and Back into the fray are not balanced on a spell for spell basis. This is why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Reverance is extremely difficult to use properly. In order to have it provide any benefit the target must know it is being cast on them, and must react in 15 seconds by spamming spells to get the effect. In most situations, people are not going to randomly spam spells which waste their own mana, and requires considerable planning to get the small benefit of this spell. Back into the fray is another single target heal that with a short reuse and cast time that can be used easily anytime another spot heal is down or in place of one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. When cast on anyone but a tank, it is counterproductive to use this spell. When a mage, scout, or priest grabs aggro, they are not looking to hold it by casting more spells to trigger the effect of Reverence being on them. Any intellegent player will stop casting, and wait for the tank to regain aggro. As for patching damage from ae's, it is faster and more efficient to use a group heal. Tanks ca's generally are not mana intensive enough to make a huge difference when used on them. As long as the fury isn't the target of the healing, Back into the fray is usable on every other class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. At its worst, Reverance provides no healing (assuming the target casts nothing in the 15 seconds). At its best the target gets healed for maybe 500-600 damage if they happen to cast their most expensive spells in that time frame. Back into the fray at its worst is a guaranteed heal for 600ish damage and at its best, this can be doubled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would gladly take a 4th heal over Reverance in its current form. It is simply too difficult to use, and provides too small an effect to rely on it. 2 possible changes that could be made to Reverance to make it more balance are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Change it to a single target buff that can be maintained on only one person- Drop its percent healed to say 20% of all mana used at adept 1, converted to health. This percent could be tested to find a balance that provides an effect but nothing too big.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Make it a group buff- This would make it useful for patching up the group after an aoe. At 15 sec recast this would be overpowering though so drop this to say 1-2 minutes. Maybe shorter with a small percentage healed or longer with a larger percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thoughts on how this spell could be balanced more appropriately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Curaga</DIV> <DIV>55 Templar</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>The rest of this thread I won't refer to but ...</P> <P>Kendricke, Kiara, et al, you guys make me laugh with your continued nonsense. Is someone at SoE paying you or something???</P> <P>Comparing Back into the Fray (a WONDERFUL spell) with Reverence (an almost useless one) and finding them balanced? Hahahaha.</P> <P>SoE could give Templars a 100hp heal for 100 power with a 20s recast and give ALL other healers a 1k heal for 10 power with a 2s recast and you would STILL come up with some argumentative nonsense about why our heal was somehow better.</P> <P>The rest of us KNOW better.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [38 Fury]</P> <P> </P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>I enjoy Reverance for a quick spell to stick on someone like a Mage that takes a little extra dmg in a group or someone in my raid group, say if they take some AE somehow but havent got aggro, quickly slap Reverance and them and switch back to the tank only takes 2 seconds, doesnt waste one of your recast timers on the, back to healing MT while they self heal carrying on nuking or whatever. Atleast in raids you can pretty much gaurantee people are always casting.</P> <P>Before the nerf it was kind of underpowered not lasting very long, and after this drop to 140% at Ad3 I dont use it nearly as much. Ah well.</P>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote> </blockquote>Fact is that HoT's work in normal situations far better than reactives with any kind of tank</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry, that is not a fact, but your opinion. My opinion is that reactives work far better at keeping a Plate tank full than regens do (regens and plate tanks sometimes feels like a tug of war between the HP bar and ticks / recast timers) and regens do a better job keeping an avoidance tank at full health. But you can blow me off. You're the hardheaded type who won't listen or even consider an opinion or idea that is different or contridicts your own because you're right and I'm wrong and nothing I can say or do will make you think any different. I play a raid geared 60 Templar and a well equipped T4 Fury for small grouping in dungeon crawls and hq's, I really don't know anything about how regens vs reactives work, but I'm sure you have loads of expierence playing a Druid and could offer me useful advice that would make me change my opinion. </span><div></div>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote></blockquote> Thus it was not a personal attack but a fact.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I was voicing against your:  "Templars must use spot heals while Furies can trust their regens" .... "Kend, you really don't have a clue" Again, that is your opinion and you tote it around as a fact. I don't know what class you play or who you group with, but as a Templar I never use my spot heals on a plate tank except when I'm not in the MT Group of a raid. So, this gives me the ability to run around the fourms stating "Templars can trust their reactives and disregard their spot heals in all but the most extreme circumstances" as a fact. At least that's what you're doing. Btw, I'm a Fury and I don't "trust my regens" as if they we're ungodly powerful. I use my spot heals because regens sometimes tick too slow to keep up with a sudden increase of damage etc (not a problem with reactives). For group healing and single healing my Monk who I can have chain stunning the mob, then I do trust my regens. </span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Supernova17 wrote:<span> Btw, I'm a Fury and I don't "trust my regens" as if they we're ungodly powerful. I use my spot heals because regens sometimes tick too slow to keep up with a sudden increase of damage etc (not a problem with reactives). For group healing and single healing my Monk who I can have chain stunning the mob, then I do trust my regens. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>What a coincidence here, bruisers (played by a dev) are the best tank as it is, and furies are overall the best healers (healing, debuffing and dps) and are even better with brawler class. Yes, I know, at lvl 48 I was duoing 51^^^'s with 51 fury, got even a 51^^ add very early and killed both. Fury was only healing while I did the damage. Now I got to a fight as a 51 templar while duoing wih 50 pally in the early stages of LU13. We barely managed to kill 48^^^. As fo gear, he had full ebon as my monk has full legendary leather. But I guess you see no imbalance in the picture even though templars should be at best with plate tanks... Edit: Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with my monk and duo partner. But I just wan't my templar to be able to do the same while duoing with a plate tank.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

furies the best in debuffing and healing!!!!?? what are you taking tim come on now lol.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:furies the best in debuffing ad healing!!!!?? what are you taking tim come on now lol. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Roll a templar, I'm sure you'll figure it out 'fast'.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote<SPAN><BR>Situational and depends on Plate or Avoidance based tank. Seeing as you play a Templar and not a Fury, while I play both classes I will go so far as to say that you do not understand HoT's in serious situations, they work, but not as well as you seem to think.<BR><BR>Personal attacks are not tolerated, especially when "you have no clue" is un-called for in such a discussion.<BR><BR>*flags down Raijian*<BR><BR>=D<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Supernova17 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:28 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Fact is that HoT's work with avoidance tanks far better than anything templar has. Fact is that HoT's work in normal situations far better than reactives with any kind of tank. Fact is also that when mt gets lots of add, reactives work better. So Kend ignored many facts himself in his post.<BR><BR>Thus it was not a personal attack but a fact.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In my experience, Monks and Bruisers tend to use power much faster than mitigation tanks.  When I'm in a group with a monk tank, I try to use Reverence more.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again, I've yet to see a monk outlast my reactive's duration.  I appreciate that when they do get hit, they get hit harder than a mitigation tank, but my reactive's are harder worthless on an avoidance based tank.  Once again, that means I'm handling burst damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What it comes down to is finding a healer that fits your playstyle.  If Templar isn't it, then you need to consider that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOTE:  I'm not claiming that Reverence and Back into the Fray are balanced equally on a spell by spell level any more than I'm claiming Odyssey an Spirit of the Wolf are balanced on a spell by spell basis.  What I'm stating is that Templars have more heal lines and methods to raise health than any other class.  I feel it's disingenious to try to state that Furies somehow are better healers based purely on one heal line.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also felt that the gross inaccuracies regarding the two spells required some clarification.  Reverence does not have a 10 minute recast timer.  Back into the Fray does not heal for over 2000 health.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:  <div> </div> <div>Then again, I've yet to see a monk outlast my reactive's duration.  I appreciate that when they do get hit, they get hit harder than a mitigation tank, but my reactive's are harder worthless on an avoidance based tank.  Once again, that means I'm handling burst damage.  </div> <div> </div> <div>What it comes down to is finding a healer that fits your playstyle.  If Templar isn't it, then you need to consider that.</div> <hr></blockquote>Of course they aren't. I do agree that templars can be main healers with avoidance tanks too. But we are not the best healers there, nor are we best when healing someone who has already taken damage. And the last part I dont agree actually. I had a healer that fitted my playstyle. But then the game and my healer was changed. For better in my monks perspective and for far worse in my templars view. So should I roll for another class because the thing that actually made my class was changed? No, I want my original role back or then I want partly the things why I would change class. And that is soloability. I'll post my suggestion here too: Triple templar nukes damage. Triple the recast time and power usage. Increase casting time a bit. Effect would be no increase in long term dps but a huge difference in soloing as we just cast 3 nukes and target is dead, now I need to cast them all 9 times which means my recast timers are the limiting factor. This method works for furies so why not on templars?</span><div></div>

[Skydude]

<DIV>I'll once again state to all of you that this debate shouldn't even be happening. Its not a Templar vs. Fury debate when the entire picture and all classes are involved. All of the other healing classes are passed over by a class that has the best DPS, invis, comparable HoTs, and SoW. Its a shame we have two people that are either Sony employees or Sony wannabes try to alter the facts and introduce them as fair to not just Templars, but the rest of the healing classes. Do you guys want to debate why Furys are better healers than Wardens? Don't see much of that here or over there for that matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is there in no way that a Fury should be able to heal as well as any priest class given their utility and DPS. It amazes me there aren't more of the other priest classes up in arms about this very subject. This is in no way balanced for all classes across the board no matter what you intimate here as supposedly factual. Its factual in your limited worlds not across the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey I'm having fun playing my lil wizzie that is very new and already pushing lvl 37. Apples and oranges I know, but he was out dps'n all priests but one class by the time he reached lvl 30. A few more lvls and yes he will out dps most all Furys. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leave reactives on the same timers, that isn't where we're lacking, but take the painfully long heals off the same timers and I'd shut up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For any of you that think Sanctuary is the best high end spell there is, well it would be if the MOB would kindly tell us when they are getting ready to cast their AoE.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>OOC.</P> <P>The rest of this thread I won't refer to but ...</P> <P>Kendricke, Kiara, et al, you guys make me laugh with your continued nonsense. Is someone at SoE paying you or something???</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly how can Kiara saying that if something is unbalanced, then it needs to be looked at be constrewed as nonesense?  A call for patience is insanity?   I have an idea that would make a lot more sense.   Lets create a thread on the Spells and Abilities forums demanding the Devs look at Templars right now, and threaten to reroll Furies.   That seems much more logical to me.<BR></DIV>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>And the last part I dont agree actually. I had a healer that fitted my playstyle. But then the game and my healer was changed. For better in my monks perspective and for far worse in my templars view. So should I roll for another class because the thing that actually made my class was changed? No, I want my original role back or then I want partly the things why I would change class. And that is soloability.<BR><BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is a little confusing to me, Tim.  I hope you don't mind my drawing it out a bit.  How, in your mind, did the playstyle of Templar change pre and post LU13?  We had reactives before, we had lousy spot heals before (which we never needed), and we had lousy proc-based utility heals before.  We had much more powerful reactives before, but that made clerics even <EM>more</EM> passive, and passive is what is making the class boring for many.  Our offensive potential, in my experience, is not any worse now.  Soloing was painfully slow before, and it is now.  Easy content could be done with little or no healing before, just as it can be now. </P> <P>What about the pre-LU13 playstyle did you enjoy that you don't have now?  What role did you have before that you lost?  I  don't see that soloing is any harder now than it was before.  I can still do low-con heroics, and I can do yellow ^ soloables, and it still takes forever.  About the only difference is that I avoid orange cons and most all blue heroics, and I had a chance with them before, depending on the mob class.</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P>

[BenEm]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Bjerde]

I do have to agree that Reverence is near useless.....the times I would need an extra heal, is when the tank is already out of mana (or close to it, so he isn't spamming any Combat Arts). It was a cool idea, but it didn't implement very good, and it got nerfed... Templars are still better healers than Furies....that is very apparent when raiding and there is a single healer in the dps or mage group. Fury struggles more, I see it a lot. HoT's are NOT as good as reactives. The only situation where Furies heal better is for group healing. They can castt a group regen, and then thier group heal....amazing for keeping the whole group up. They are a superb back-up, both Druids have always been, because of the way Regens work....they keep people topped off so they don't need spot heals. Templars are better focusing on one target (tank). Stack reactives and use instant heals when needed.....and yes, they are needed a LOT when raiding, I find myself waiting for heals to recycle a lot. I cast Reverence because I don't have another option, Focused Benefaction is useless in big single target raid mobs.....I haen't used that in weeks, literally. Templars shine in group encounters, when the tank is getting hit a lot.....no one can out heal us in that situation. Not even a Fury =P In high end raiding, we are ok...I feel more like a back-up healer in that situation. Shamans are in the spotlight here, wards can take the big hits. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bjerde wrote:<BR>In high end raiding, we are ok...I feel more like a back-up healer in that situation. Shamans are in the spotlight here, wards can take the big hits. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Especially now that ward stacking has been fixed and the shaman hate issue has been found and rectified.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sinnester]

<P>Just my opinion.  Reverance is totally useless to me.  </P> <P>I'd much rather have a spell along the lines of Back to the Fray.</P>

[Faithes]

/sigh.  People only see what they don't have rather then what they do have.  To the person above me, I bet furies might say the same thing. <div></div>

[Mor]

Would you be willing to trade BitF for Sanctuary?  The way I see it, those two spells are really more comparable.   Yes, they do totally different things.  But each is unique and outstanding.   If the goal was to give each class an important marquee spell in T6, they certainly achieved that with these two spells.   <div></div>

[Skydude]

<DIV>I would. If I could count on the current descriptions and abilities of both. If BITF would stay off of our other timers (which it wouldn't). Sanctuary can maybe save a raid group from 2 possibly 3  AoEs during an Epic encounter and that is if you get lucky because it seems the MOBs will cast their AoE's around it instead of when it is up. If a Templar/Fury or Templar/Warden both keep reactives and HoTs up, then the whole crew is being healed during the frozen intervals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cast Sanctuary during pull and asap when its timer expires. If you hunt in Epic encounters with a Templar then you'd know that MOBs almost cast around it. So in essence even with a 15 minute fight, it is saving you from the effects twice and maybe 3 times if your lucky. After your playing catch up on heals anyway. A smart bomb heal would be most welcome yes as BITF with Grand Restoration would have the Tank back up in a matter of 4.5 seconds. It would take at least 8 seconds as fizzles and interrupts go. All classes on all boards have complained about both, but you have no idea when you have no avoidance, broken plate, and have to endure a full 3 seconds for your big heal.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Skydude on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>

[javis]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ADW123 wrote:<BR> <DIV>In my opinion Reverance and Back into the fray are not balanced on a spell for spell basis. This is why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Reverance is extremely difficult to use properly. In order to have it provide any benefit the target must know it is being cast on them, and must react in 15 seconds by spamming spells to get the effect. In most situations, people are not going to randomly spam spells which waste their own mana, and requires considerable planning to get the small benefit of this spell. Back into the fray is another single target heal that with a short reuse and cast time that can be used easily anytime another spot heal is down or in place of one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. When cast on anyone but a tank, it is counterproductive to use this spell. When a mage, scout, or priest grabs aggro, they are not looking to hold it by casting more spells to trigger the effect of Reverence being on them. Any intellegent player will stop casting, and wait for the tank to regain aggro. As for patching damage from ae's, it is faster and more efficient to use a group heal. Tanks ca's generally are not mana intensive enough to make a huge difference when used on them. As long as the fury isn't the target of the healing, Back into the fray is usable on every other class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. At its worst, Reverance provides no healing (assuming the target casts nothing in the 15 seconds). At its best the target gets healed for maybe 500-600 damage if they happen to cast their most expensive spells in that time frame. Back into the fray at its worst is a guaranteed heal for 600ish damage and at its best, this can be doubled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would gladly take a 4th heal over Reverance in its current form. It is simply too difficult to use, and provides too small an effect to rely on it. 2 possible changes that could be made to Reverance to make it more balance are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Change it to a single target buff that can be maintained on only one person- Drop its percent healed to say 20% of all mana used at adept 1, converted to health. This percent could be tested to find a balance that provides an effect but nothing too big.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Make it a group buff- This would make it useful for patching up the group after an aoe. At 15 sec recast this would be overpowering though so drop this to say 1-2 minutes. Maybe shorter with a small percentage healed or longer with a larger percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thoughts on how this spell could be balanced more appropriately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Curaga</DIV> <DIV>55 Templar</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Outside of the whole BITF vs. Reverence debate, which is moot as far as I am concerned. I love that spell for the furies it is MOST welcomed on raids. I totally agree with Curaga here, Reverence has very limited applications and for the very reasons listed here. The is the best post on the thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>-Izzy</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Alephin wrote:<blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <p>This is a little confusing to me, Tim.  I hope you don't mind my drawing it out a bit.  How, in your mind, did the playstyle of Templar change pre and post LU13?  We had reactives before, we had lousy spot heals before (which we never needed), and we had lousy proc-based utility heals before.  We had much more powerful reactives before, but that made clerics even <em>more</em> passive, and passive is what is making the class boring for many.  Our offensive potential, in my experience, is not any worse now.  Soloing was painfully slow before, and it is now.  Easy content could be done with little or no healing before, just as it can be now. </p> <p>What about the pre-LU13 playstyle did you enjoy that you don't have now?  What role did you have before that you lost?  I  don't see that soloing is any harder now than it was before.  I can still do low-con heroics, and I can do yellow ^ soloables, and it still takes forever.  About the only difference is that I avoid orange cons and most all blue heroics, and I had a chance with them before, depending on the mob class.</p> <p>Alephin</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>It is actually the whole consept of EQ2 that changed with the expansion. 50% of the expansion is solo material. I still like grouping, but since my templar was nerfed with lu13, the time it took for me to solo anything went up by 30%. It was a pain pre lu13 but tolerable since most content was for groups only, but it went beyond horrible after solo content was introduced. Templars got a massive hit on heals, we actually lost about 70% of our healing capability. That was no big deal since mobs were weakened also. But the fact that solo mobs gained more health while our nukes stayed the same made me angry since we were clearly promised more dps. So it was not actually my playstyle that changed, it was everything in and around my class that changed. At first I was thrilled when I was in group for the first time and had to constantly change my healing method. Now healing in itself itself is trivial and groups are hard to find as everyone soloes. Though that seems to be changing now since everyone else has gone through the solo content but me. I have had most fun when fighting in group against orange cons. One add and you really need to know what you are doing. </span><div></div>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>It is actually the whole consept of EQ2 that changed with the expansion. 50% of the expansion is solo material. I still like grouping, but since my templar was nerfed with lu13, the time it took for me to solo anything went up by 30%. It was a pain pre lu13 but tolerable since most content was for groups only, but it went beyond horrible after solo content was introduced. Templars got a massive hit on heals, we actually lost about 70% of our healing capability. That was no big deal since mobs were weakened also. But the fact that solo mobs gained more health while our nukes stayed the same made me angry since we were clearly promised more dps.<BR><BR>So it was not actually my playstyle that changed, it was everything in and around my class that changed. At first I was thrilled when I was in group for the first time and had to constantly change my healing method. Now healing in itself itself is trivial and groups are hard to find as everyone soloes. Though that seems to be changing now since everyone else has gone through the solo content but me.<BR><BR>I have had most fun when fighting in group against orange cons. One add and you really need to know what you are doing.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree with you about the solo content, although I don't find it taking that much longer now; it took forever before, and it takes forever now.  They have found, apparently, that many people enjoy solo content.  I enjoy it too.  If I'm soloing, I don't have to worry about having to log off quickly, I don't have to go lfg, and I don't have to worry about whether the group is going to get me killed.  Unfortunately, EQ2s solo content is rather underwhelming.  SOE only knows about 3 kinds of quests--exploration, fetching, and mob-killing (the vast majority).  Priests have no business doing mob-killing quests solo.  Scouts really have no business doing mob-killing quests solo either, except maybe assassins.  But we're stuck with it.  </P> <P>Priests are a lousy solo class, because we kill too slowly.  We are a wonderful harvesting class, though, because we die so slowly.  Alas, harvesting is boring, so we are stuck with mob killing quests.  I would love to see some quests where my templar had to heal someone in combat.  Or a quest where my scout had to get somewhere without being seen, using all of their tools.  But until they hire some quest makers who can think outside the hack-and-slash box, we are stuck with the class definition hallmarks as about the only differentiated quests in the game.  It stinks, I know.  </P> <P>They also need to get some quest makers that understand that there is a lot more to interesting questing than fancy dialogue.  They should use all the npc scripting tools they have available, and develop more, to make quests themselves immersive.  This would be real solo content.  If I want to kill 10,000 mobs, it's more fun doing it in Half-life 2 where there is action and a story that is related to the action (unlike book quests, where you read a few pages then go kill mobs that have little to do with what you're reading).  </P> <P>I would pay 5 bucks for an adventure pack if it just contained 3 or 4 good solid quests that didn't have a kill/find 10 mobs/items in them anywhere.  Why would I ever need to kill 10 of anything?  They're just gonna come back anyway.  Why is 9 not enough?  Or why shouldn't I need to kill 11.</P> <P>I don't want more dps for faster mob-killing.  That just encourages all this repetition that is the scourge of MMOGs everywhere.  I want solo content that allows me to make use of the skills that I have.</P> <P>I do disagree, however, that healing is trivial.  If you find it trivial, you just need to fight tougher content.  There are mobs out there that will take every bit of talent you have, and then some.  You just have to find some teammates and go to where they are.</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P>

[Spag]

<P>lol  you guys are killing me here.</P> <P>/sarcasm on</P> <P>On a side note I have come to the realization that Tunare's Watch is way too powerful, and imbalances the classes.  This spell should immediately be traded to Templars, in exchange for Reverence.  This spell alone will make them then end all be all healers.</P> <P>Wardens on the other hand, will have to settle for a T6 ancients spell, that might actually be 5 times more useful than Tunare's Watch.  Those poor wardens, will they ever catch a break.</P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P> </P>

[Skydude]

<DIV>I doubt Wardens or Templars would even notice if they switched them with a famous stealth nerf. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[sabrexlan]

<DIV>I dont mind Furies have a uber 3rd heal. As a templar 57 I can do my job healing a group by myself easily. Add any second healer and its pretty boring usually because the base ward or hot from the second healer does much of the job and I can top it up with reactives very very easily. The only healing circumstances I struggle alone is either healing a non plate tank on a named mob and reactives cant keep up or keeping multiple players (mostly casters) alive when the tank doesnt have all the agro. In those circumstances a third unlinked direct heal (ie the splitpaw one or a reverence turned into a direct heal) would be helpful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As per all the discusions on the boards, class envy isnt the real problem. The CU has failed in that it has solo combat solely dependent on output dps and then carried over a dumb dps teir argument from Eq1. In Eq1 dps teirs made sense becuase classes were more dependent on each other. In Eq2 any dps class doesnt need a tank or healer for all solo content and much of the heroic and heroic named content. The net result of this is the short term is healers spending hours lfg while the dps classes and tanks solo their way through content and quests and in the long term we are going to see eq2 /who lists dominated by wizards, warlocks, furies and beserkers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I cant group what do I do? Last night I spent 3 hours in Silent City killing undead solo blues SLOWER than my vitality was regening!! 3 blues per evening means a level in 30 days!! I think the argument is wrong when people say no dps wheres my utility.... the question is really no dps where my enjoyment in Eq2. For me its either reroll or go somewhere else. </DIV>

[Dalchar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sabrexlanys wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I cant group what do I do? Last night I spent 3 hours in Silent City killing undead solo blues SLOWER than my vitality was regening!! 3 blues per evening means a level in 30 days!! I think the argument is wrong when people say no dps wheres my utility.... the question is really no dps where my enjoyment in Eq2. For me its either reroll or go somewhere else. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I actually did that for a few of the lower levels, went and solo'd to finish my levels... was awful, was like 3-4 hours for 7% and that was with vitality.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Correction: by lower levels I meant like L51-54 or so. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:53 PM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>actually single target healing Templar is the best healing class, most heal spells -- 2 RH, 2 DH, Reverence, FB, 2 Instant RHs all can be used by single target healing method... useful or not depends, Reverence can be uber on mage / priest (try cast on self at 10% hp and keep smiting / heal tank..u can be full in the duration (uber situation), but poor on Tank / Scout class due to low power cost rate... (nearly useless situation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but when dealing with GroupAoE, Druid win by far, Mystic also better dealing with this. (sorry i never read defiler board /grin)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>actually single target healing Templar is the best healing class, most heal spells -- 2 RH, 2 DH, Reverence, FB, 2 Instant RHs all can be used by single target healing method... useful or not depends, Reverence can be uber on mage / priest (try cast on self at 10% hp and keep smiting / heal tank..u can be full in the duration (uber situation), but poor on Tank / Scout class due to low power cost rate... (nearly useless situation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but when dealing with GroupAoE, Druid win by far, Mystic also better dealing with this. (sorry i never read defiler board /grin)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Put it on a priest of a mage??...If an epic mob or T6 herioc mob turns on a Fury...err Druid or a Mage by the time this you get this spell off for them to cast a spell to make this spell useful they are already dead. If its AE you gotta pray the critter doesn't land another AE attack. This spell only lasts 15 secs!!</P> <P>Druid and mages usaully fold like little school children when they beat on by epic mobs or heroic mobs due to their non-existant mitigation.</P> <P>This spell is useless...and it got nerf'd from 196% to 140%....give me a break this spell is useful...this spell needs some serious looking into.</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xerxess wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Put it on a priest of a mage??...If an epic mob or T6 herioc mob turns on a Fury...err Druid or a Mage by the time this you get this spell off for them to cast a spell to make this spell useful they are already dead. If its AE you gotta pray the critter doesn't land another AE attack. This spell only lasts 15 secs!!</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Druid and mages usaully fold like little school children when they beat on by epic mobs or heroic mobs due to their non-existant mitigation.</P> <P>This spell is useless...and it got nerf'd from 196% to 140%....give me a break this spell is useful...this spell needs some serious looking into.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So it's situational.  I've used it in groups with no fighters to keep scouts who like to pretend to be tanks standing.  I've used it on tanks as an additional heal "buff" while waiting for other heals to come online (it casts fast).  I've used it on prepulls for Paladins who like to use big spells.  I've used it a lot on avoidance tanks that like to go all out on combat arts.  I've used it on bards who like to use spells that have an open power cost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll agree that I'd like it...altered.  I'm not quite sure exactly how yet.  Certainly having a longer timer on it would make more sense.  Having it perform an immediate heal with a 15 second reverence "effect" would be good.  Having it affect a group would be great. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I'm not saying it's of identical value to Back into the Fray.  However, we received Reverence at the same time Furies received Back into the Fray, and historically speaking, priests have a great big pattern of receiving comparable spells at the same levels (I've a direct line comparison post in the Preists section of the forums which pointsthis out).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[nullcodehe]

Fact 27:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Many implications that:</P> <P>Reverence and Back into the Fray are balanced equally</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fact 28:</P> <P>Furies also get a 5th heal, on a separate timer, at level 57.  This heals for 1k, and has a 18 second recast.</P> <P>Fact 29:</P> <P>Templars get a rebalace spell at 57.  That spell actually makes the entire party lose health by 20% overall.<BR></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by nullcodehere on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> Fact 27:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Many implications that:</P> <P>Reverence and Back into the Fray are balanced equally</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>"I'm not claiming that Reverence and Back into the Fray are balanced equally on a spell by spell level..."</EM> - Kendricke</P> <P><EM>"Again, I'm not saying it's of identical value to Back into the Fray."</EM> - Kendricke</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Lego]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> Fact 27:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Many implications that:</P> <P>Reverence and Back into the Fray are balanced equally</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fact 28:</P> <P>Furies also get a 5th heal, on a separate timer, at level 57.  This heals for 1k, and has a 18 second recast.</P> <P>Fact 29:</P> <P>Templars get a rebalace spell at 57.  That spell actually makes the entire party lose health by 20% overall.<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by nullcodehere on <SPAN class=date_text>11-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:50 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sadly, you've missed yet again on a 'fact'.  Hibernation isn't level 57.  It's a level 58 ancient.  And it's not on an 18 second recast either.</P> <P>1 second casting time, then it pauses for 10 seconds then drops the 1k heal.  That's a fact.<BR></P>

[Spag]

<DIV>Templars get a rebalace spell at 57.  That spell actually makes the entire party lose health by 20% overall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I would love this spell, and before I even knew it existed it was actually one of my suggestions for fixing Tunare's Watch.  This spell can be very powerful in the right hands.</DIV>

[Supernova17]

Divine Arbitrtion is 58 btw It is usefull in that it can be casted while moving and bring the tank out of the red and into the yellow in an instant, faster than any heal (beyond the LoH and Mend lines) caould manage. It's situational and has saved a few of my tanks when raiding. <div></div>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV>Please post facts only kendrike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Drama is not welcome on my thread.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>(Hmm lol I mean really LOL kendricke posts his view and you call it drama cause he doesnt agree with you lol so i guess hes a troll and a flamer too eh just like me posting this on your thread ah well I can live with that but it is kinda funny)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>History is a required subject in school for a reason.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Read your history and you may not react when you read the forums.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Suite</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999><IMG src="http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/6175/eliana054qz.jpg"><BR></FONT></P>

[Bjerde]

Divine Arbitration does not work that well in my opinion. I rarely ever use it. I thought it would be a great Templar-defining spell, but it doesn't do enough. I use it once in a while raiding to see how well it works, and I have to say I am not impressed. When I look at all the heal bars across the top of my screen....and I hit DA, it just doesn't seem like the hit points level equally across the board. I will have to do some more testing, but I don't find it very useful as it is. <div></div>

[Goozman]

<DIV>DA would be cool if it just sucked like 50% of everyone's hp and complete healed the target or something. And Hibernation is not a "direct heal". And omg has the OP posted a fact yet? lol this is too funny</DIV>

[Sokolov]

Fact 1:  nullcodehere is a troll <div></div>

[kenji]

<DIV>definitely a troll but ppls still replying ... /grin</DIV>

[Sokolov]

okay, he's an entertaining troll <div></div>