The real difference in Priests (at least the way is was and should be...)

[Terabethia]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>Okay, I am going to put my 2cp out there, and then probably never come back to this thread since I am about to get flammed by a massive amount of druid's and shaman's an whoevery else disagree's. But here it is...</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>Everquest 2 is based largely on EQ1, both of which is based largely on D&D. In both of these games, Cleric's were/are THE TOP healers. That is what we did and should continue to do. A cleric's job is all about health. A cleric heals, and buffs health. That's it, all we get, done. And you are happy about it, since that is your job. You are highly in demand and you are the best healer. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>A druid and a shaman is not designed to be a "healer" although they have always fallen under this category. You get a druid and a shaman for their utility, and when the going gets rough, they are able to back up heal, as well. In EQ1 you would almost never see a druid or shaman as the main healer of a group. They could not do it. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>And, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSTED TO! All of the druids and shamans that have complained that they are not able to heal as good as a cleric really need to shut up. It is not your job to be the main healer, and you should not expect to be able to be one. Basically, you seem to want your cake and eat it, too! You are designed to use your great utilities and BACK-UP heal only. If you wanted to heal as good as a cleric, you should have played one. I played both a cleric and a druid in EQ1, so I have experienced what both classes should be. As a cleric, I healed and buffed. That's about it, but I was quite important and the group would not really have worked without me. With my druid on the other hand, I hardly ever healed, as there was a cleric in the group. So until that cleric needed an AFK, was OOP or things got out of hand with the mobs, I did not even look at my heal button. I was too busy doing my job and using my utilities!</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>In closing, I refuse to ask for more utility as a cleric. I don't want utility. If I wanted sow, invis or to do massive dps, I would have played another class like you are supposed to. I ask that you bring our heals back up over those of the other priest classes. That means we need to go back to pre-LU13, where a clerics heals were faster to cast and healed more hp. That is how a cleric was, and that's how they should remain.  So please SoE, I beg you to make us what we once were, a very much needed and important healer. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>I agree with you, I always have held this view of what TRUE BALANCE is about. One class (well, in EQII, technicallty two classes, since Inquisitors are just evil clerics) is the "true" healer class. The other classes heal but not as well, but make up for it with more damage, utility, etc. You are preaching to the choir here, for *most* of us, I suspect. But yes, you will attract some derision from the whiney element amongst druids who want a god-class that heals-the-best AND does damage. I emphasize, only that element - most druid players are happy with the basic balance of being slightly lesser healers and greater in other areas - that's why they chose the class.</P> <P>But ....</P> <P>SoE have clearly told us now, they do not want this model anymore. Perhaps that is due to the whining, perhaps it is due to a genuinely held vision they have for the healing classes, I cannot say. So, if they are truely going to dump the model of balancing greater healing and less damage/utility vs more of an all-rounder, in favour of a 'all priests heal equally' model, then in that case, those of us left in the class have to be realistic and realize this is what they are going to do. However, in doing so, they will be soon enough forced into realizing, that they need to ALSO balance the utility and damage aspects of the game, not leave us with some weak, specialized and random proc heals (that are useless in many circumstances outside raids) and otherwise pityfully weak. If they do not realize this, Templar will become a raid-only (and large guild only) class.</P> <P>This is why people like myself are now calling for more DPS/Utility, so that we do not get kicked from groups when the first Fury comes LFG, and that we do not get to solo at one third their rate, and only so that when we are actually in a group, we can only heal as well as any other healing class.</P> <P>Your view has my sympathy, totally, it is where I started from. I just don't think that SoE are listening to that message, at the moment.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [33 Fury]</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

/agree with OP and Caethre .. go Caethre!  Keep leveling that Fury.  Wish I had the patience. We are stuck with SOE's vision of all priest healing about equally.  Really strange they made a dedicated healing class.  Makes no sense. Would be so much better if there were offensive (have DPS) and defensive (dedicated healer) classes within the priest archetype.  Oh wait.. the descriptons read that way.. but all priests get to heal about the same.. so some priests are now offensive+defensive and others only get half the equation.  So much for balance. <div></div>

[NosmokIng]

Agree but here comes the 5 fan bouys.... <div></div>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>I honestly dont think they will change us back to pre-13. It just isnt in their nature to eat it that much methinks...but they may jack up our "utility" heals a bit more, and maybe bring some dps up, though I wouldnt hold my breath on that either...</P> <P> </P> <P>The solution is really simple, and it has been said a dozen times. Just get rid of the Classes and Sub-Classes. We can all play 1 of 4...thats balance....well sort of... Soon you would have SoE saying that there isnt enough balance between the Fighter and Scout types in DPS...or between the Priest and Mage types in spell DPS...and...how come the Mage types cant heal too? Why cant that Fighter flank attack for extra damage? And...and...we need balance. </P> <P> </P> <P>I want to be a god-like healer - who can take a shot now and then. Thats it. Gimme my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Templar back already.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Terabethia]

<FONT color=#66ccff>Well, so far no flames, that is good :smileywink:</FONT> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Just to clarify, I am not asking that they remove all the combat changes for priests and revert back to pre-LU13. I am Simply asking that they make things more like they were then. So don't nerf what you gave the shamans and druids, but bring our spells back in line. My best heal at level 60, adept 3, does more HP heal than an level 60 warden's adept 3, but they can do it faster and have a built in regen, as well. This is not balance really. So leave them as they are, and simply bump up our recast timers so it doesn't take 11.5 seconds to heal, and remove the silly links so I can use a lower lvl spell if I have to. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>I am really not asking for much, just to be the healer that I once was. I am not annoyed enough with my Templar to re-roll, I love her. I have put so much time and effort into my character that the only way I am giving her up is to leave the game all together, which I am not doing. I don't suck by any means, but I am not the great "must have to do this" healer I once was :smileysad:</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Terabethia on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[Eriol]

Well, I can understand the sentiment, but having LIVED through the EQ1 days (5+ years of it), I can say one thing: I do NOT want the "cleric only" problems we had there. And this isn't a "fanboi request" to have it this way: they were saying "all priests will be able to main-heal anywhere" from before I was in beta (this is pre-release beta). They also said all fighters should be able to main-tank (even raids), and they made some other claims about mages and scouts which kind of were broken pretty damned early (that's another topic entirely). But the point was that main-healing was ALWAYS supposed to be balanced between all the priests, and definitely not templar (or cleric) exclusively. Now even knowing that, I made a Templar after release. I left early this year for other reasons, but coming back after the combat update, I've BARELY played her, as compared to my necro (who is now 41 and rising), it just is NOT fun. So I DEFINITELY am with you on wanting updates, but FOCUSING on "we must be 7331 healers above all others!!!!" is not helping.Having said that, I believe those here with the "you MUST balance offense and utility as well" are on the right track. No matter what, an offensive boost is needed, along with a re-alignment of utility (ie: make it useful and wanted). If you want to keep furies on top of priest DPS, I'm OK with that, but the utility sacrifice must be substantial. If healing is "frozen" as being relatively equal between us all (as I DO agree with), then utility (REAL and desired utiility) and DPS MUST be the other distinguishing factors, though at the same time putting ANY class in the DPS dumps just doesn't help. 3x faster soloing with some in the same archetype? That's just insane.I want to play my templar again outside of group environments, and in groups I want to be able to do more than spot-heal occasionally (as except against ^^^, healing is barely needed). I'm sure ALL templars want to feel useful BEYOND their healing abilities. Perhaps some don't, but as healing is going to be balanced between the priests (eventually), we need our secondary roles to become fun (and useful) as well.

[Gcha]

<DIV>I completely agree with the OP.  I'd simply add that I want HEALS, not trick spells and lotto heals.  I didn't pick cleric to be a walking proc.  I don't want to depend on casting Spell A which may trigger Effect B if Event C happens.  I want to cast HEALS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who knows what SOE will want the healing model to be next month.  Yeah we constantly hear this is here to stay and that is here to stay, but then look at SWG.  Wasn't the huge long-ballyhooed "CU" there to stay?  Except, well, now it's not.  The same could easily happen here.</DIV>

[Stjarna Kvar]

Terabethia,While I agree with your analysis of where EQ2 came from, and support the ideology of clerics being the best healers in the game, a game as complex as EQ cannot live in 1s and 0s. There are many different variables that need to be accounted for when designing an MMORPG, the least of which is class saturation. If content REQUIRED the level of healing that a Templar dished out to be effective, then the other classes suffered. There just weren't enough Templars to go around, and not everyone wanted to play one.With that in mind, I suspect that the Game Designers came up with the solution to provide more healing from the other priest classes so that the druids and shamans could keep up with the healing requirements of a standard group situation. I personally think this was the right way to go, however, I will agree with your assertion that the cleric classes should not have been ignored when this necessary change was made.Here's what my group found when we started EQ2 a year ago. Forgive me for those of you who have heard this before. /flashback onMy wife rolled a fury, my friend rolled a guardian, and I rolled a troubador. From lvl 1 - 14, my wife's fury was able to handle healing, but grabbed aggro like she was casting taunts instead of regens. She was spending half her time healing, the other half dying. Guardian Taunts were not up to the task of keeping her alive, and there were many cases where I was able to out-taunt the guardian class with a couple of casts of Arcane Chorus. We gave up trying to make it work at lvl 24... the fury was not a healer class, and we needed a healer class to stay alive with the content changes.I rolled a Templar out of frustration. She rolled an crusader to level with me.I found that the Templar was a far more complex class than the EQ1 Cleric had been. It was fun to play, requiring a knowledge of how tanks mitigated damage, how other healers worked, and how best to implement my debuffs, reactives, and straight heals. It became obvious by the way my healing spells worked, that my class was designed to work better with a Mitigation tank. It became obvious that the other priest classes had a preferred tank as well (shamans->bruisers, druids -> crusaders).About two weeks after we made our switch, Sony realized that WOW was way ahead in market share due to it's Solo/Small group friendly content. SOE made a change and implemented more solo/small group content, making it easier to group and level--I suspect that my wife's fury would have been able to handle the heals in that environment, but she was enjoying the crusader, and I loved my cleric, so we never checked.LU13 made it harder for all classes, with most complaining that they felt like they lost 10 levels. Some classes lost more than others. Everyone had to learn how to play their class again./flashback offPost LU13, the Fury got re-speced. They are now a healing class, capable of being main healer in a xp group. This was necessary to allow people who wanted to play and needed a healer to be able to grab what was available.I have found lately, I'm a stones throw from lvl 45, that I'm having more difficulty Main Healing for my wife's SK when we fight level appropriate Heritage Quest Mobs. If we're not on top of our game--I won't be able to get the job done, unless we're in a FULL group. I think this is probably how it should be. Maybe I should look for one of those other healers out there LFG--oh wait I can never find healers LFG on my server.My conclusions are:1. There is a huge need for more priests on servers, and that any addition to the healing ability of other characters is boon to all. I think SOE is making the reason to play any type of class a Personal one. If you want to be a Templar because you wear heavy armor and pray to a god for your powers, play a templar. If you want to be all animal shamany... play a shaman. Either will effectively keep your group alive.2. Templars need a little re-speccing to provide some balance--even if it is percieved balance.3. I wrote this stinking post over a period of 3 hours and two meetings... It may not make any sense.

[Gwyniveth]

<DIV>I have to start off by saying that my main character is a level 60 Iquisitor, but I also have a templar that I am struggling to relearn as well so felt that it might be ok for me to post my thoughts here. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fisrt off, to the op .. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The concept of the Cleric class being the most powerful healer is a dated one. Divine healing is one of perception. Well before there were Clerics that roamed the world, there were shaman and druids. In some current cultures Shamen still exist and are very powerful healers still.  They were the "main" healers of their time and no less efficient becasue their gods and ways were different then ours . It is arrogant for us to believe that we as clerics, have any more divine intervention then another priest class. When we chose our priest class at character select, no where did it even imply that Clerics would rule the world as 'the" healing class. It was made quite clear that all healing classes would heal equally well... but that did not happen. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the general update..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For 50 levels, I , a "cleric" was the red headed step child of the Templar. Never bothered me much until I joined a raiding guild, and I was able to see what my brother and sister  good aligned counterparts could do that I couldn't. Thats when I took my Templar ( my very first character ever, created on the day of release) out, dusted her off and began to level her again. Partly out of curiouosity, partly out of frustration , I needed to know .. were they really that much better then me ?  Sadly, I had to say yes. You all killed me in healing spells. And it has nothing to with ability. I play my class extremely well.. I pride myself in it, but there is no way I could compete on a heal to heal basis. With the expansion, we were all brought to  a level playing field. This sweeping change included Shaman and Druids. Its what were promised, its what we expected from the beginning, or at least those of us that researched the priest class and didn't just base our preconceptions on what clerics were in EQ1 ( which I also played as both a Cleric and a Druid ). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I have many templar friends, it was a shock to them to lose their god like status as healers, and my heart broke for them that they had to join the rest of us bottom feeders and feel our pain.  I empathize with all of you that play Templars as your main. I know how confused and angry you are. Its a defect in Sony's original design that you were all that powerful to being with. If that were not so, and Clerics were supposed to be at the top of the food chain, how do you explain the deficiency in heals of the Inquisitor pre-LU13? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please please do not think I am in any way trying to minimize your frustration. I'm not. I continue to level my Templar, becasue healers are my thing. Its as much what I do as what I play. I am not comfortable in other roles. I love healing. But to continue to ask that the templar be restored to the Gods of Healing is just wrong. It was not the game design .. that it happened that way was a mistake that unfortunatly you are all having to pay for now. I agree with the op... I don't want more utility either .. I want more heals, different heals. It still angers me that some of my heal lines don't stack with the templar line .. but that is a different rant <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. But since I am not likely to get more heals anytime soon, I will take my cleric, and do the best job I can possibly do with the pride of knowing that I know my class, I play it well, and I don't begrudge other healers for wanting or finally obtaining that which we were all promised when we clicked the payment button  on the subscription page. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~ Jaolyn</DIV> <DIV> 60 Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>The Bekwen Alliance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Vylo]

<DIV>i agree wholeheartedly!!!!  i had a shammy in EQ1 thinking i could heal... only to find out i really couldnt keep up in the healing... debuffing/buffing etc were what i did best...  so... EQ2 comes around... knowing i watned to be a healer i decided to create a cleric <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and since i hate freeport... i went Templar... only to find out that a shammy/druid can heal just as well.  now im sorry, but this is complete and total crap.  they shouldnt be able to heal as well... they have tons of other crap they can do... do i want their other crap? not in the least... if i did, i would have done that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just make us heal better <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please! on behalf of Templars everywhere! we beg of you... *grin* thank you, that is all...</DIV>

[bigmak20]

...and here it comes... the folks saying we shouldn't be the best healer AND shouldn't be able to do the things the other priest get to do in addition to healing... SOE, everyone, make up your minds... there are 2 choices: 1) we are the "best healer"  OR 2) we get the DPS and utility the other priests get that's it.  Anything else is not balanced.

[Terabethia]

<P><FONT color=#33ccff size=2>Great responses guys, I am glad to hear that people somewhat see things the way I do. As far as the ideas of what priests "really are in the real world", Gweniveth is 100% correct. I am well versed in my history and that of "natural lore", I was only speaking of the classic eq and the D&D models for which this game is based, as are most fantasy MMO's. But glad to see you know your history, I was waiting for that one!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff size=2>Now mind you, I wrote all of this while I should have actually been working, but I was having a discussion with a friend who plays a warden and ended up in an arguement, which, in the end I won. Now, I am not saying I am right based on winning this arguement, I just happen to have taken a debate class or two and can talk people into giving up! :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff><FONT size=2>I always felt that the other priest classes, our fellow druid and shamans, should be able to hold a group up if they need to. Do I feel like they needed a little boost? Absolutely. And they deserved it. But as usual, SoE took it too far, and over did them. They are now more powerful overall than the clerics, and that just is not right. A druid/shaman should be able to keep my group alive if I need to go afk, or if I am out of mana. In certain group situations (not fighting really hard ^^^'s), they should even be able to hold a group up by themselves. But again, they should not be just as effecient of a healer as a cleric. If you want to join a group to grind and kill the really hard stuff, you should require a cleric. If you want to raid the next big mob, you should require a couple of clerics. Otherwise, as ton's on the board have stated, what is the point of being one?</FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Georgia color=#33ccff>I understand that SoE has said that all healers are to be balanced, but I just don't feel that they know what they are doing. They have said that they are going to make us all equal, but this is just not right. I guess that a lot of people at this point have just accepted that we are going to heal equally and are now asking for the same DPS and Utility as the others. My problem is not so much that I want to be an uber healer or that I don't want utility. It is far more than that. I just ask, if you make us all equal, what makes each class "special" I played EQ1 for quite a while, and looked forward to this game for a long time before release. I played beta for this, and all along I knew I wanted to be either a druid or a cleric. I literally spent weeks deciding what I wanted to be. There was a difference in the class, and I had 1 chance to decide what path I wanted to take. Just before I finished my level 10 choice, I sat there for 20 minutes deciding which button to click on. So... if we are all equal, what is going to make someone new to the game say "Wow, I really want to be a Cleric/Druid/Shaman<SPAN class=453472622-08112005> over all else</SPAN>"? Because it just won't matter, and that just makes me sad.</FONT> :smileysad:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: fixing spelling errors! : 0 )</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Terabethia on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:25 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Terabethia on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:28 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Terabethia on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stjarna Kvarco wrote:<BR>Terabethia,<BR><BR>While I agree with your analysis of where EQ2 came from, and support the ideology of clerics being the best healers in the game, a game as complex as EQ cannot live in 1s and 0s. There are many different variables that need to be accounted for when designing an MMORPG, the least of which is class saturation. If content REQUIRED the level of healing that a Templar dished out to be effective, then the other classes suffered. There just weren't enough Templars to go around, and not everyone wanted to play one.<BR><BR>With that in mind, I suspect that the Game Designers came up with the solution to provide more healing from the other priest classes so that the druids and shamans could keep up with the healing requirements of a standard group situation. I personally think this was the right way to go, however, I will agree with your assertion that the cleric classes should not have been ignored when this necessary change was made.<BR><BR>Here's what my group found when we started EQ2 a year ago. Forgive me for those of you who have heard this before. <BR><BR>/flashback on<BR><BR>My wife rolled a fury, my friend rolled a guardian, and I rolled a troubador. From lvl 1 - 14, my wife's fury was able to handle healing, but grabbed aggro like she was casting taunts instead of regens. She was spending half her time healing, the other half dying. Guardian Taunts were not up to the task of keeping her alive, and there were many cases where I was able to out-taunt the guardian class with a couple of casts of Arcane Chorus. We gave up trying to make it work at lvl 24... the fury was not a healer class, and we needed a healer class to stay alive with the content changes.<BR><BR>I rolled a Templar out of frustration. She rolled an crusader to level with me.<BR><BR>I found that the Templar was a far more complex class than the EQ1 Cleric had been. It was fun to play, requiring a knowledge of how tanks mitigated damage, how other healers worked, and how best to implement my debuffs, reactives, and straight heals. It became obvious by the way my healing spells worked, that my class was designed to work better with a Mitigation tank. It became obvious that the other priest classes had a preferred tank as well (shamans->bruisers, druids -> crusaders).<BR><BR>About two weeks after we made our switch, Sony realized that WOW was way ahead in market share due to it's Solo/Small group friendly content. SOE made a change and implemented more solo/small group content, making it easier to group and level--I suspect that my wife's fury would have been able to handle the heals in that environment, but she was enjoying the crusader, and I loved my cleric, so we never checked.<BR><BR>LU13 made it harder for all classes, with most complaining that they felt like they lost 10 levels. Some classes lost more than others. Everyone had to learn how to play their class again.<BR><BR>/flashback off<BR><BR>Post LU13, the Fury got re-speced. They are now a healing class, capable of being main healer in a xp group. This was necessary to allow people who wanted to play and needed a healer to be able to grab what was available.<BR><BR>I have found lately, I'm a stones throw from lvl 45, that I'm having more difficulty Main Healing for my wife's SK when we fight level appropriate Heritage Quest Mobs. If we're not on top of our game--I won't be able to get the job done, unless we're in a FULL group. I think this is probably how it should be. Maybe I should look for one of those other healers out there LFG--oh wait I can never find healers LFG on my server.<BR><BR>My conclusions are:<BR>1. There is a huge need for more priests on servers, and that any addition to the healing ability of other characters is boon to all. I think SOE is making the reason to play any type of class a Personal one. If you want to be a Templar because you wear heavy armor and pray to a god for your powers, play a templar. If you want to be all animal shamany... play a shaman. Either will effectively keep your group alive.<BR>2. Templars need a little re-speccing to provide some balance--even if it is percieved balance.<BR>3. I wrote this stinking post over a period of 3 hours and two meetings... It may not make any sense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I pretty much agree with your conclusions the only problem is My server has approximately 40 % less Templars playing and over 50% of the healing class on the server were Templars end result ... alot less healers in total on my server . We are entirely Healer deprived rt now . I am one who loves his Temp but I did  roll a Fury and am really enjoying being able to keep a group healed and getting the kill . I still log on with my Temp all the time because he is a high level Armorer the funny thing is that after lu13 I was worried about a Temps place in a group well Ironically so many Healers have quit that I get a tell every 2 mins asking me to join a group and I get the same with my Fury at only lev 26.  Unfortunately because they had to nerf Temps rather than bring other healing classes in line it made so many quit the entire server now has way too few healers to meet the community's needs .<BR>

[Elda]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>...and here it comes... the folks saying we shouldn't be the best healer AND shouldn't be able to do the things the other priest get to do in addition to healing...<BR><BR>SOE, everyone, make up your minds... there are 2 choices:<BR><BR>1) we are the "best healer"  OR<BR>2) we get the DPS and utility the other priests get<BR><BR>that's it.  Anything else is not balanced.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Great point, that wouldnt be balanced, however have you actually grouped with other priests before talking about our "utility and DPS"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild has a fury, inq and templar, and I'm a defiler (we are missing warden). We've are very competitive with our classes in a friendly way, and have done full burn DPS tests in group and soloing situaitons. All of us are light raid geared (cobalt or equiv, mostly ad3's), and lv 51-53.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On average it comes out like this (with no HOs allowed).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor ~110</DIV> <DIV>Templar ~120</DIV> <DIV>Defiler ~130</DIV> <DIV>Fury ~150</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not like the furies are doing 3x the damage of templars like many of you are thinking, or claiming. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys complain in many threads that the dev's arent replying to your posts, but part of it is that they see you're not using real facts as information. Furies do maybe 20-25% more DPS than you, and anyway 150 DPS is squat compared to what a dps class or even a tank does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys also refuse to look at your secondary abilities (mark of kings, involuntary curate, stun, mitigation debuffs) as utility. Well, sure, if you ignore all of your utility spells, then sure, you have no utlity. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Boggle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess a slow which prevents 500 damage during a fight is utility, but a templar involuntary heal debuff which causes a mob to heal for 500 isnt utility....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Boggle off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your in-combat utility is a line of secondary proc/reactive type heals, if you haven't figured it out by now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is all about out of combat utility (SOW, EVAC, INVIS), then say so. Yes, you guys are not equal in terms of that, pacify is nice, but I think everyone can agree that you could use one more out of combat utility spell line to even it out. However, don't try to make it look like the sky is falling when there is only one problem. You guys are equal in every other way...making a thread complaining about how you want to be "the best" isn't going to change anything....everyone wants to be the best...lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Boggle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess a slow which prevents 500 damage during a fight is utility, but a templar involuntary heal debuff which causes a mob to heal for 500 isnt utility....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Boggle off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see where you're coming from and all, but involuntary healer for 500?  Maybe if I cast it on 6 mobs it would add up to that.  You couldn't have picked a worse example (until LU16, at least, where it is supposed to be fixed). :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P>

[Polaj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>Okay, I am going to put my 2cp out there, and then probably never come back to this thread since I am about to get flammed by a massive amount of druid's and shaman's an whoevery else disagree's. But here it is...</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>Everquest 2 is based largely on EQ1, both of which is based largely on D&D. In both of these games, Cleric's were/are THE TOP healers. That is what we did and should continue to do. A cleric's job is all about health. A cleric heals, and buffs health. That's it, all we get, done. And you are happy about it, since that is your job. You are highly in demand and you are the best healer. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>A druid and a shaman is not designed to be a "healer" although they have always fallen under this category. You get a druid and a shaman for their utility, and when the going gets rough, they are able to back up heal, as well. In EQ1 you would almost never see a druid or shaman as the main healer of a group. They could not do it. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>And, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSTED TO! All of the druids and shamans that have complained that they are not able to heal as good as a cleric really need to shut up. It is not your job to be the main healer, and you should not expect to be able to be one. Basically, you seem to want your cake and eat it, too! You are designed to use your great utilities and BACK-UP heal only. If you wanted to heal as good as a cleric, you should have played one. I played both a cleric and a druid in EQ1, so I have experienced what both classes should be. As a cleric, I healed and buffed. That's about it, but I was quite important and the group would not really have worked without me. With my druid on the other hand, I hardly ever healed, as there was a cleric in the group. So until that cleric needed an AFK, was OOP or things got out of hand with the mobs, I did not even look at my heal button. I was too busy doing my job and using my utilities!</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>In closing, I refuse to ask for more utility as a cleric. I don't want utility. If I wanted sow, invis or to do massive dps, I would have played another class like you are supposed to. I ask that you bring our heals back up over those of the other priest classes. That means we need to go back to pre-LU13, where a clerics heals were faster to cast and healed more hp. That is how a cleric was, and that's how they should remain.  So please SoE, I beg you to make us what we once were, a very much needed and important healer. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>*shrug* I'm one of the Shaman you expected to disagree-though I don't plan to flame you.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's the thing, though-this isn't EQ. It's based on EQ, yes, but it always claimed to differ in some pretty specific areas, and this is one of them. They have always said that all healers would be able to fill the role. One of the main reasons I played this game instead of WoW was the promise that I could play my Shaman as a healer, instead of the one trick cripple Shaman ended up being in EQ. The fact that they didn't make good on their word for nearly a year doesn't speak well of them, but it also doesn't change the fact that they owed us what they promised, which is an equal role as a healer.</P> <P> </P> <P>I understand that your utilities suck, and I'm sorry, and they need to fix them. But no priest's utilities are all that good. Your DPS is too low-I agree with that too. But no priest is particularly desireable as a DPS class. Healing slots are all that are available for all of us-which means, if a Cleric is required to grind hard XP, Shaman and Druids are pretty worthless for those kind of encounters. </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eldarn wrote:<div> </div> <div>/Boggle</div> <div> </div> <div>I guess a slow which prevents 500 damage during a fight is utility, but a templar involuntary heal debuff which causes a mob to heal for 500 isnt utility....</div> <div> </div> <div>/Boggle off</div> <div> </div> <>Your in-combat utility is a line of secondary proc/reactive type heals, if you haven't figured it out by now.<><hr></blockquote>The difference between templar and fury abilities is that furys spells work 100%. The slow will reduce mob dps no matter what whereas the templar debuff might heal nothing. Same goes for reactives vs. HoTs. HoT's will heal as long as there is something to heal, reactives will heal only if the target takes damage. Now put that in raid situation. MT is hit, reactive heals once while HoT's keep on healing even when MT is not hit. How about slow then? MT might not even use autoattack noe CA's due to ripostes, here slow still reduces mob dps but templar involuntary line debuff is useless. So even though the actual numbers in templar utility look nice, they are not worth much when you really start looking into it.</span><div></div>

[Spag]

<DIV> <DIV>Your basic Warden chiming in here.  I can't speak for anyone other than myself but this basically my take on it.   All healing classes need to be able to heal equally well, and by this I mean the following.  All primary healing spells need to be balanced.  This includes both direct heal lines, group heal, single target special and group special.  Utility and DPS can then be balanced out afterwards.  Now before you get upset, let me explain.  Templars should get additional healing through utility, and not just through proc based heals.  Their utility should be completely geared toward healing, and the balance between utility and DPS weighted towards utility, though again, healing utility.   The inquisitor could then have a bit less healing utility and a bit more DPS, and DPS related utility or such.  The same utility structure can be used in the other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way the core healing spells need to remain balanced.  I am fine with Templars healing for more, just not so much more that other classes are no longer viable in their primary role.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, and example only (50pts):</DIV> <DIV>Class        Primary  Healing        Healing/Defensive utility      other utility   DPS        Overall healing pts</DIV> <DIV>Templar           30                                      14                                3                3                             44</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor          29                                      13                                  6               4                             42</DIV> <DIV>Warden           30                                       11                                  3               6                             41</DIV> <DIV>Fury                 28                                       9                                   3               8                             37</DIV> <DIV>Mystic              30                                       10                                  7               3                             40</DIV> <DIV>Defiler              28                                       8                                   7                5                             36</DIV> <DIV>Again this is an example, assuming inquisitors are supposed to be a more offense/utility orientated cleric as the fury is supposed to be a more offense orientated druid, and assuming defiler is more offensive orientated shaman.  This example shows that while one can be on top all are within 20% of top.  Again this is an example, not to be taken literally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>A druid and a shaman is not designed to be a "healer" although they have always fallen under this category. You get a druid and a shaman for their utility, and when the going gets rough, they are able to back up heal, as well. In EQ1 you would almost never see a druid or shaman as the main healer of a group. They could not do it. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>And, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSTED TO! All of the druids and shamans that have complained that they are not able to heal as good as a cleric really need to shut up. It is not your job to be the main healer, and you should not expect to be able to be one. Basically, you seem to want your cake and eat it, too! You are designed to use your great utilities and BACK-UP heal only. If you wanted to heal as good as a cleric, you should have played one. </SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV>Simply put, this is not EQ1.  Its possible to have it mostly balanced but still have someone on top.  I think thats acceptable, though I do not think its remotely acceptable that any healing class be considered backup healer.  Stating it as such wreaks of conceit.  Templars are not the only real healing class in game.  If thats what you want, you know which game you should go play.  All priests are supposed to fulfill their main role equally well.  This is pretty much the case now, more so than has ever been achieved since launch.  Sure there are some things to get worked out, but atleast half the classes are not completely broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>With my druid on the other hand, I hardly ever healed, as there was a cleric in the group. So until that cleric needed an AFK, was OOP or things got out of hand with the mobs, I did not even look at my heal button. </SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I do not want to be, nor are we intended to be, a back up healer in a group so the Templar can go pee.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not take this as a be happy with what you got post.  If you feel something is imbalanced, and you can present a clear and well thought out arguement , I am sure I would be glad to support it.  A few templars have shown their support for Wardens between LU13 and LU15.  We arppreciated it immensly.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As is now there seems to be an issue with Templar DPS and soloing.  With the information I have seen, I would agree something needs to be done about your DPS.  The problem is that not all Templars agree about this, and this is what is hurting your class.  When us Wardens had issues healing after LU13, we got organized, and presented a ton of information and finally got our problem resolved.  But we were all (or atleast a very high majority) were working together to do so.  Post such as this simply divide your class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come to a concensus among yourselves, and then present your ideas and recommendations with insurmountable proof to the devs.  You will see progress.</DIV></DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote:<div><div>I do not want to be, nor are we intended to be, a back up healer in a group so the Templar can go pee.</div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, as some unnamed people say 'if you wanted to solo, you shouldn't have picke a cleric', this could be answered as 'if you wanted to be main healer, you should have picked a cleric'...</span><div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Terabethia wrote:<div>{snipped for the sake of space} </div><hr></blockquote>I completely agree.</span><div></div>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>NosmokIng wrote:Agree but here comes the 5 fan bouys.... <div></div><hr></blockquote>Assume you mean me, but I don't understand why hehe! I agree with the op, and always have supported that idea. Give me my heals, buffs and overall superior healing ability, screw that utility / damage stuff if it makes the Cleric a more powerful healer. </span><div></div>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote: <DIV> <DIV>I do not want to be, nor are we intended to be, a back up healer in a group so the Templar can go pee.</DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, as some unnamed people say 'if you wanted to solo, you shouldn't have picke a cleric', this could be answered as 'if you wanted to be main healer, you should have picked a cleric'...<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh really? look at the game, and all the documentation and say that again.</P> <P>Sorry that the game didnt comply with D&D and other MMO'S, but if you read the documentation, and all of the quotes from the devs, they all say that all priests can heal equally. </P> <P>Let me just say that one last time, in the words of the man himself.<BR></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>Quote #1:</FONT></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Moorgard: "In our game, any member of an archetype can fulfill their main role in a group <STRONG>as well as any other."</STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Quote #2:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=genmed><B><FONT size=2>WarNipple wrote:</FONT></B></SPAN>No one at lvl 100 is going to say, "to complete our group, we need a Scout". <----Because that could be anyone of 6 ACTUAL classes.</DIV><SPAN class=postbody> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><BR><BR><FONT color=#ff3300 size=2>Moorgard: "In fact, it's our goal for people at *all* levels to say that very thing, because it would mean that the archetype system works and every class can <STRONG>perform its core role as well as any other</STRONG>."</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></SPAN><BR>get the picture? We didn't make the rules, we just play the game. Sorry if your pre-conceptions caused you to assume incorrect things about the classes, but now you have an opportunity to read the documentation and work from there.</P> <P>No dev or publicized material for EQ2 has ever said that one healer is supposed to keep a group alive better than any other.</P> <P>Sorry.</P>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eldarn wrote:get the picture? We didn't make the rules, we just play the game. Sorry if your pre-conceptions caused you to assume incorrect things about the classes, but now you have an opportunity to read the documentation and work from there.<p></p> <p>No dev or publicized material for EQ2 has ever said that one healer is supposed to keep a group alive better than any other.</p><hr></blockquote>Just so we're all clear here, is it your position in the argument that, for example, a Druid should heal equally as well as a Cleric yet no other facets of the class (for instance its amount of damage output or other non-heal oriented spells) necessarily need to be equalized? </span><div></div>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Timaarit wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>Do you have trouble understanding what you read?<BR><BR>Here is the deal: If a templar is not supposed to be able to solo, then healers who are supposed, should be secondary healers. As simple as that.<BR><BR>As for my opinion, Every healer should be able to be main healers just as every healer should have roughtly the same soloability.<BR><BR>Did you get it this time?<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Timaarit, i totally, 100% agree with you. All priests should be able to solo at roughly the same speed and survivability, which they currently cannot. I did not disagree with you there, if you noticed.</P> <P>My problem was with you saying 'if you wanted to be main healer, you should have picked a cleric'. Silly statement refuted many, many times by devs since release and before.</P> <P>You were responding to someone who said 'if you wanted to solo, you shouldn't have picke a cleric', well i wouldnt agree with either. All priest classes should solo equally, and should solo much better than they currently do.<BR><BR></P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>...<p>so that we do not get kicked from groups when the first Fury comes LFG</p> <p>... </p> <hr></blockquote> Our differences in opinion aside, you've said this a few times.  At first I just presumed you were prophesizing, but the way you wrote that makes it sound it HAS happened, do people actually do this on your server?  That is the lamest thing I've ever heard.</span><div></div>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>...<p>so that we do not get kicked from groups when the first Fury comes LFG</p> <p>... </p> <hr></blockquote> Our differences in opinion aside, you've said this a few times.  At first I just presumed you were prophesizing, but the way you wrote that makes it sound it HAS happened, do people actually do this on your server?  That is the lamest thing I've ever heard.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>People are nuts.  Remember when LU 13 went live with the bonus experience for groups messed up so that it was more efficient to duo?  People on my server were making bogus excuses like "uh, I am going to log soon, so I'll ungroup."  Then, I get a /tell later...  The guy wants to duo ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ZONE (supposedly the rest of the group won't notice this) for more XP.  Players can be rather mercenary sometimes.  If she's on a server with a larger percentage of people like that and they perceive furies as being more optimal, you can bet it will happen.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div></div>...<p>so that we do not get kicked from groups when the first Fury comes LFG</p> <p>... </p> <hr></blockquote> Our differences in opinion aside, you've said this a few times.  At first I just presumed you were prophesizing, but the way you wrote that makes it sound it HAS happened, do people actually do this on your server?  That is the lamest thing I've ever heard.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>People are nuts.  Remember when LU 13 went live with the bonus experience for groups messed up so that it was more efficient to duo?  People on my server were making bogus excuses like "uh, I am going to log soon, so I'll ungroup."  Then, I get a /tell later...  The guy wants to duo ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ZONE (supposedly the rest of the group won't notice this) for more XP.  Players can be rather mercenary sometimes.  If she's on a server with a larger percentage of people like that and they perceive furies as being more optimal, you can bet it will happen.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I've never had a group that kicked out anyone unless they were being extremely disruptive/stupid, such as running off all over and aggroing stuff and dying or not answering group chat and remaining in a different zone while the rest of us are waiting.  Certainly no one even minorly competent  has ever been kicked out, much less to be replaced with the same archtype!</span><div></div>

[Tanit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Terabethia wrote:bla bla bla<hr></blockquote>/yawn This will never happen (not intentionally) because.... THIS IS NOT EQ1 (omg!) How D&D or other games do it is completely irrelevant, this is a different game in which they have always said that all healers should be able to heal equally.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tanith_ on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span>

[Shirlyn]

<div></div>Ok, I have to put in my $.02 worth.<img src="../../i/global/post_italics.gif" alt="" border="0" height="22" width="22">Guys, I will tell you right now, that if you keep up with this "We should be the best healers in game, and the other healers should only be our back ups in case we need to go AFK" no one is going to be sympathetic to you. No one is going to care if your DPS is broke. We're going to see you as stuck up and snobbish.So I suggest getting down off your high horses and instead of complaining that all priest classes can now <i>do the job we were designed to do, </i>you address what is genuinely wrong with your class.<div></div>

[Shennr]

<P>How many of you picked your archtype with only your previous experiences with past RPG's?  Seriously did hardly any of you read on this website and others before the game had even come out? My friends really wanted me to play a priest class so they could have a healer to group with while lvling up.  They even told me to pick a cleric/templar because from their past experiences that was the one and only dominant healer.</P> <P>Well I started researching this game a year before it came out and when I read over and over again that all groups need to have 4 archtypes and all the archtypes would be able to fill their primary roll, I then had my opinion.  I chose my Warden off of multiple assumptions, some being that out of a few polls they would be the least played healer when the game first came out, also that they would be as good of a healer as the clerics and the shamans.  Now most of you don't need to research this game that long to find out this much about the Archtype system, more like 1 week, but you have access to that an most importantly you can choose the class according to your play style.  Question is did most of you do this?</P> <P>I did not play a druid in EQ1 or D&D but I knew a few druids and shamans who did have enough skill to keep a group alive, maybe not with such ease but they could.  Also, this was stated by many people in EQ1 that they hated the fact of the need for so many of 1 single class, ie cleric.  They were needed in every raid and if your group leader had the mindset that the cleric is the only healer then you could have a group missing a healer and LFG for quite some time.  This mindset drove me insane and my best friend in RL had this mindset, /cry.</P> <P>Come up with other arguments to make the templar class more fun to play and needed and I will support you all.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shirlyn wrote:<div></div>Ok, I have to put in my $.02 worth.<img src="../../i/global/post_italics.gif" alt="" border="0" height="22" width="22">Guys, I will tell you right now, that if you keep up with this "We should be the best healers in game, and the other healers should only be our back ups in case we need to go AFK" no one is going to be sympathetic to you. No one is going to care if your DPS is broke. We're going to see you as stuck up and snobbish.So I suggest getting down off your high horses and instead of complaining that all priest classes can now <i>do the job we were designed to do, </i>you address what is genuinely wrong with your class.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well if you think that that kind of strawman will get sympathy to you, you are dead wrong. As it is, templars totally agree that all healers should be able to work as main healers. But since people like you think that this should simply be done by ignoring every other aspect of the game, you will be hearing statements you mentioned. This is just to get your attention. If you are unwilling to give us similar dps that you have, then you will hear us demanding to be better healers than you are. As simple as that. So I suggest you do what you suggested us to do since the designs that were implemented 1 year ago, are totally obsolete now. SoE has changed they wiev of practically all classes but they never tested their wiev. And result can be seen. Just like with LU16 (hint for dev, you should actually test the patch/change before you update the servers).</span><div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shirlyn wrote:<div></div>Guys, I will tell you right now, that if you keep up with this "We should be the best healers in game, and the other healers should only be our back ups in case we need to go AFK" no one is going to be sympathetic to you. No one is going to care if your DPS is broke. We're going to see you as stuck up and snobbish. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That's a distortion of what the reasonable people have been trying to say (ignore the foamers at the mouth and the "we are fine" brigade).  What's been said is that, yes, as clerics we would like to have the traditional cleric role of being the best healer in the game universe.  But if we're not going to get our traditional class role then it's only fair to balance what we do have against others. So if you are going to heal in a group as well as we do then we should be able to offer a group as much utility and DPS as you do.  Is that not fair? </span><div></div>

[bigmak20]

I'm all fine with all healers being equal healers dammit. <b>Now give us all equal DPS so we're balanced.</b> What?  You don't want balanced DPS?  Then we get to be uber healers. K'thnx.

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shirlyn wrote:<BR> <BR>Guys, I will tell you right now, that if you keep up with this "We should be the best healers in game, and the other healers should only be our back ups in case we need to go AFK" no one is going to be sympathetic to you. No one is going to care if your DPS is broke. We're going to see you as stuck up and snobbish.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hehe "stuck up and snobbish" Templars? Or "endlessly whining we-want-everything" Druids? Two sides of a coin...</P> <P>In the end, it is one way or the other.</P> <P>EITHER</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars get to be BEST (unequalled, unrivalled, whatever word you like) healers, head shoulders and torso above all other priests AND then have to accept lower soloing/DPS/utility and comments like "templars were never meant to solo" and other such remarks.</FONT></P> <P>OR</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars have to accept being equal healers to other priests .. and we get some MEANINGFUL AND VALUED utility (not pointless proc heals and silly short term mezzes you are welcome to those - how about Root, Group-Encounter Pacify and more) to give us balance with other priests there, and EQUAL DPS CAPABILITY to other priests.</FONT></P> <P>You cannot have it both ways. Carry on with the "We Demand Equal Healing to Templars" AND "We Demand Better DPS/Utility than Templars", and we will keep seeing you as campaigning for your own god-class.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [34 Fury]</P>

[Gcha]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <P>EITHER</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars get to be BEST (unequalled, unrivalled, whatever word you like) healers, head shoulders and torso above all other priests AND then have to accept lower soloing/DPS/utility and comments like "templars were never meant to solo" and other such remarks.</FONT></P> <P>OR</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars have to accept being equal healers to other priests .. and we get some MEANINGFUL AND VALUED utility (not pointless proc heals and silly short term mezzes you are welcome to those - how about Root, Group-Encounter Pacify and more) to give us balance with other priests there, and EQUAL DPS CAPABILITY to other priests.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well said.  That sums it up perfectly.<BR></DIV>

[Eileithia]

<P>OK.. here we go..</P> <P>I've done a line by line comparison between Templars, and Defilers.. I'm sure I'm missing a couple because I'm at work, but you will see that we are VERY equal in what we can do.. there are a couple lines on either side that I couldn't match up, but in most cases it was some form of heal for the templar, and some form of imparement for the Defiler.. One note on our proc ward.. Wards DO NOT STACK.. they both take equal damage if they are up.. so having 3 wards on is totally pointless.. I bring this up because we will have a ward on whenever possible, and if the procing ward does go off, it's basically useless.. Your proc heal will still heal even if you have reactives up or any of your other forms of heals.. I have left most buffs out of this comparison..</P> <P>You guys do get more raw healing power than any other priest class..</P> <P>A couple I couldn't match up..</P> <P>Viligant Benediction - Chance to absorb damage, single target buff. I think this matches our Dread Invective - Single target melee buff that procs on attack which causes damage when mob uses power</P> <P></P> <P></P> <P>Wraith Form (see invis / self HP Regen)<BR>Fate Line (Heals group when enemy slain)<BR><BR>Revulsion Line (Reduces all stats) <BR>Weakness Line (Pacifys Target)<BR><BR>Balm Line (Small Fast Heal) <BR>Ameliorate Line (Small Fast Heal)<BR><BR>Sphere Line (DoT and Slow)<BR>Combative Faith Line (Dot)<BR><BR>Degeneration Line (Slow / DPS Reducer)<BR>Disgrace Line (Decreases Damage reisits)<BR><BR>Contamination Line (DoT / Wiz Debuff)<BR>Celestial Strike Line (Direct Damge / Extra to Undead)<BR><BR>Curse of Sheilding Line (Chanc to Proc Small Ward)<BR>Involuntary Healer Line (Cance to Proc Small Heal)<BR><BR>Spectral Line (Single Target Ward)<BR>Suplicants Prayer Line (Single Target Reactive)<BR><BR>Chant Line (PBAE Fear / Detaunt)<BR>Placate Line (PBAE Pacify / Detaunt)<BR><BR>Acreation Line (Group Heal)<BR>Healing Touch Line (Group Heal)<BR><BR>Carrion Line (Group Ward)<BR>Intercession Line (Group Reactive)<BR><BR>Foreboding line (Single Target HP / Power Buff)<BR>Redoubt Line (Single Target HP / Offensive)<BR><BR>Sacrificial Line (Single Target Large Heal)<BR>Restoration Line (Single Target Large Heal)<BR><BR>Imprecation Line (DD / Nox Debuff)<BR>Smite Line (DD / Pacify)<BR><BR>Aphotic Line (Encounter AE DoT, Nox Debuff)<BR>Beams of Faith Line (Encounter DD)<BR><BR>Distill Soul Line (Damage when enemy target Healed)<BR>Mark of Princess Line (Decrease Resists, HoT Proc)<BR><BR>Tendrils Line (Buff that procs Slow when hit)<BR>Sign of Debility Line (Pacifies Target)<BR><BR>Suppuration Line (DoT)<BR>Prostrate Line (Stun)<BR><BR>Mail of Souls (AE Nox / Trauma Cure)<BR>Resolve (AE Devine / Trauma Cure)<BR><BR>Malestrom of Dismay (AE Lifetap / Powertap)<BR>Focused Benefaction (Massive Reactive)<BR><BR>Forced Cannibalize (Dot / Powertap for Defiler)<BR>Reverence (Converts power spent to health)<BR><BR>Voice of the Ancestors (AE Cure Stifle / Stun / Root)<BR>Sanctuary (Group buff Prevents Stifle / Stun / Root)<BR><BR>Spiritual Circle (Pet that Wards)<BR>Devine Arbitration (Equalizes Groups HP)<BR><BR>Spirit of the Wolf<BR>Odessy<BR><BR>Primeval Terror (Single target Fear)<BR>Forced Submission (Single Target Stun)<BR><BR>Loathsome Seal (Single target Debuff)<BR>Glory of Combat (chance to heal on attack)</P> <P>I'm sure I'm missing quite a few.. You guys have equal utility.. everywhere I get a slow or debuff, you get some form of buff or heal, or HP increase, or pacify, or something to replace it..</P> <P>You are the best healing class for healing RAW HP..</P> <P>Anyhow.. for those who missed it.. this is NOT EQ1 or any other MMO for that matter. All priests are MEANT to be able to fill the Priestly role as well as any other.. the reason we have the Damage, or Slows, or whatever that you don't is that it would be impossible for us to fill that role without them... You are the TRUE healers.. we can keep the group alive as well as you can because we have the extra utility to match up.. we do NOT heal as well as you guys.. If I can't slow.. my wards drop almost instantaneously, and I cannot keep up with the healing.. because I only have 3 heals.... Wards do not bring HP up.. My 3 heals are on the exact same timer as yours, and heal the same amount.. Also, Slows / Damage / Debuffs get resisted, and resisted a LOT.. Heals NEVER get resisted.. and we have the same fizz rate as you do, so please don't bring that up =P</P> <P>Why does it take so long for a lot of you to get the fact that we are not as good raw healers as you are.. and we have the utility so we can keep up with your healing power.. Your utility IS your healing.. you have more heals.. you increase mitigation so tanks get hit for less.. you increase health pools.. that's what Templars do, and they do it better than any other priest class hands down.</P> <P>Shamen, and Druids are not meant to be "Backup healers" in this game.. if that's what you want, play another game, and stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about it.</P> <P>No priest solo's well.. it's slow for all priest classes.. yes your DPS is the lowest of the priests (not far behind shamen actually) but you make up for that in ways to increase raw HP that no other priest class has.</P><p>Message Edited by Duntzzzz on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR> <P><snip lots of obvious stuff - we can all see the spells lists></P> <P>... You guys have equal utility..</P> <P>... You are the best healing class for healing RAW HP...</P> <P>... No priest solo's well.. it's slow for all priest classes...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong, we do not have equal utility. We have an equal number of spells, yes, but many of the utility spells we have are <FONT color=#ffff00>almost useless</FONT>. That's right: many of us never cast them in the domain in which we play, because they are just a waste of power and time. The 'Sign' line (mez), the Involuntary line (proc heal), and the Mark line (proc heal) are the main culprits here. Random, tiny heals are not helping us in the huge number of circumstances where they are simply not needed, about 95% of everything I do (at least). Not playing a Templar, you can be excused for not knowing this, but not for repeatedly coming to our forum and telling us something we know to be false.</P> <P><FONT size=1>[I am not speaking for raiders here, I am not a raider, and I am told these *can* be useful on raids, but I can't comment on that, I am speaking for small grouping players like myself]. Those of us who play Templars as solo/grouping players know this. At least, most of us do.</FONT></P> <P>Wrong, we do are the best healing class for healing RAW HP... not anymore. Ignore those useless proc heals (see above), and it is pretty much even. I won't argue about 2% or even 5%, they are <FONT color=#ffff00>approximately equal</FONT>.</P> <P>Totally Wrong, some priests do indeed solo (relatively) well. I'm not bringing mages et al into this, but I can speak as a Fury. <FONT color=#ffff00>I solo as a Fury many multiple times faster than I ever could and ever will be able to as a Templar</FONT>, with far less good gear. I used the phrase 'night and day' to compare them, because that it what they are like.</P> <P>I can't speak about Defilers, I know nothing of the 'evil' classes, but for the 'good' aligned classes, from what I have played and seen (the two druid classes basically), with EQUAL HEALING (ignoring all the nonsense about 'trick' proc heals) and as low as one third the base damage on nukes, and no DECENT utility (and I look at the druid classes for comparison, I can't speak about shamans), that is why so many of us are giving up on Templars and/or are so unhappy, that is why all these hundreds of posts from hundreds of Templar players.</P> <P>We don't need a Defiler coming to the Templar boards to tell us to "stop whining" however, it is flamebait to keep doing it. We believe our class is badly weakened now, based on actually knowing the class, with no real role and no solo capability worth making us playable (compared to other priests!). Coming here quoting information we already know to be false, however, is not going to convince anyone of anything.</P> <P>Addendum: I'll add this. You mention several times about this not being EQ1, we dont have any right to be "best healer" and all that ... yes, yes, we've heard that all before from non-cleric priests who demand parity. But then almost in the same breathe, you speak about us as the "Pure Healers", to seemingly justify why we should be weak in other areas. What is it to be? You get parity in healing, and we get to be weak elsewhere in ... exchange? How nice of you ...</P> <P>Felishanna / Annaelisa</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>I can't speak about Defilers, I know nothing of the "evil" classes, I won't even group with evils ever <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... but for the 'good' aligned classes, from what I have played and seen, with EQUAL HEALING (ignoring all the bull about 'trick' proc heals, those of us who play in solo and small group settings) and as low as one third the base damage on nukes, and no DECENT utility (and I look at the druid classes for comparison, I can't speak about shamans), that is why so many of us are giving up on Templars.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well I think you might not want to lump all druids together.  I don't believe my DPS is much higher than yours.<BR>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>I am primarily comparing us to Furies, since I now play a level 34 Fury (and rising), so I know how that class works.</P> <P>That said, Wardens have a lot less to complain about. You have some utility (read: Group Root) that I would happily delete three of my templar spell lines for permanently, thats how little I think of them. Heck, I'd delete them for single target root, in a heartbeat.</P> <P>And yes, Warden DPS is not in the same league as Fury DPS. But whilst that is true, it is still better than Templar, and combined with Root and Damage Shields, Wardens do have a decent method of helping duos and trios, and of soloing (again, not at Fury pace, I would accept).</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:14 PM</span>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <P>Wrong, we do not have equal utility. We have an equal number of spells, yes, but the ones we have are .. read this .. useless. That's right .. many of us never cast them in the domain in which we play, because they are ... useless. [I am not speaking for raiders here, I am not a raider, and I am told these *can* be useful on raids, but I can't comment on that, I am speaking for small grouping players like myself]. Those of us who play Templars know this. At least, most of us do.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Do you honestly think we cast all of our spells.. and I'm sorry if you think so, but a "Free" heal is better than no heal at all.. our version of that spell is a "Free" ward, and read my statement on ward stacking.. I'd take the heal anytime.. If you are not using your utility spells, then you are doing nothing but hurting your self and your groupmates.. </FONT></P> <P>Wrong, we do are the best healing class for healing RAW HP... not anymore. Ignore those useless proc heals (see above), and it is pretty much even. I won't argue about 2% or even 5%, they are approximately equal.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Your so-called useless proc heal, still increases HP.. and it's something we don't have.. so you cannot ignore that as a way to increase HP.. only that you choose not to use it.. that's your choice.. but don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you don't have something that in fact you do.</FONT></P> <P>Totally Wrong, some priests do indeed solo (relatively) well. I'm not bringing mages et al into this, but I can speak as a Fury. I solo as a Fury many multiple times faster than I ever could and ever will be able to as a Templar, with far less good gear. I used the phrase 'night and day' to compare them, because that it what they are like.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Yes.. Fury's, the ONE priest that has quick solo-ability because of their larger amount of DPS.. but they lack the healing capacity you do, and have to have shorter fights to keep up with the healing.</FONT></P> <P>I can't speak about Defilers, I know nothing of the "evil" classes, but for the 'good' aligned classes, from what I have played and seen, with EQUAL HEALING (ignoring all the bull about 'trick' proc heals, those of us who play in solo and small group settings) and as low as one third the base damage on nukes, and no DECENT utility (and I look at the druid classes for comparison, I can't speak about shamans), that is why so many of us are giving up on Templars and/or are so unhappy, that is why all these hundreds of posts from hundreds of Templar players.</P> <P>We don't need a Defiler coming to the Templar boards to tell us to "stop whining" however, it is flamebait to keep doing it. We believe our class is badly weakened now, based on actually knowing the class, with no real role and no solo capability worth making us playable (compared to other priests!). Coming here quoting information we already know to be false, however, is not going to convince anyone of anything.<BR><BR><FONT color=#cc0000>Please point out where I've posted false information. If you choose to ignore spells that you have, that's your choice.. we all have spells that some would consider useless, and most of those spells are the ones you see as our "Utility".. The original post here was saying that Shamen / Druids should be second rate priests, so I have every right to come here and tell you why I think differently. (Being a Shaman)</FONT></P> <P>Addendum: I'll add this. You mention several times about this not being EQ1, we dont have any right to be "best healer" and all that ... yes, yes, we've heard that all before from non-cleric priests who demand parity. But then almost in the same breathe, you speak about us as the "Pure Healers", to seemingly justify why we should be weak in other areas. What is it to be? You get parity in healing, and we get to be weak elsewhere in ... exchange? How nice of you ...</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Again, this is you not looking at the big picture.. The reason I can "Heal" as well as you can, is because of my slows and dots, and so-called utility.. not because of my Heals.. whereas your healing ability comes from your HEALS making you a pure HEALER, not the best PREIST..  We DO NOT have parity in raw healing, and that's where you seem to miss it EVERY time..</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>I'm glad you are rolled a Fury, because honestly, you have no clue how to play a Templar to it's full capacity.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>I'm glad you are rolled a Fury, because honestly, you have no clue how to play a Templar to it's full capacity.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This sums up your post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Honestly" you can think what you like, but you do not KNOW anything. I happen to be a very experienced and skilled player, but that doesn't matter. There are hundreds of Templars all saying the same things, perhaps we all "don't know how to play our classes".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alternatively, that was a flagrant personal attack, and flamebait. Coming to another class's forum and telling us all to "stop whining" is just trolling, trying to cause a flamewar. Go back to your own class boards and whine about Templars if you like, but there is no point in you coming here posting things like that, you will just get Rajinn deleting your posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bigmak20]

Amazing how these folks will argue a Templar's utility is those lotto healing spells then also argue we get crappy DPS because we have those lotto healing spells.  Are those lotto healing spells our utility or our DPS replacement?  Which is it?  hmmm?  Who's not seeing the big picture?

[Spag]

<DIV>I think the OP set the pace for flamebait on this thread.</DIV>

[Stjarna Kvar]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST DUE TO RELIGIOUS REFRENCES**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Bjerde]

You state above.. "Why does it take so long for a lot of you to get the fact that we are not as good raw healers as you are.. and we have the utility so we can keep up with your healing power.. Your utility IS your healing.. you have more heals.. you increase mitigation so tanks get hit for less.. you increase health pools.. that's what Templars do, and they do it better than any other priest class hands down." Defilers instant heals are the ones matched to Templars in , in case you didn't notice. We heal for the exact same amount on our instant heals....yeah you take a minor health hit, and regen it back in wraith form. Buffing HP, hmmm Defilers are equal to us there too. Oh we do get our mitigation buff, but so does everyone else now..... Defilers have wards which can absorb a HUGE hit. and you can stitll keep up by spamming instant heals. Our reactives heal maybe 500 of a 5k hit, then we spam heals....that are on the exact same timer as yours......and heal for the exact amount as yours. Defilers have a slow, and poison buff...very critical 50+....and debuff beautifully. We have one nice heal proc, if there is even any melee in group to cast it on, but you have all your debuffs you can throw on...we have one debuff. I am stating that we are equal in healing, you have a slight edge on Ulitity. Shamans are prefered over Templars in raiding because the wards can absorb those big hits in one shot....and the poison buffs are a must. Thank gawd they finally fixed the shaman wards, but since they were broken forever....there are not that many. There are not enough shamans on the servers now. There are too many Templars, who are not needed as much, and are all quitting. Wardens are not far behind the Templars btw.....they are almost as bad off as we are. Roll a Fury or Shaman if you want a good priest class. There is plenty of Shaman and Druid only gear in DoF too. Haven't seen one piece of Templar -only gear....where is the love? <div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P> <P>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:48 PM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Addendum:</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Interesting. Someone posts about insane religious fanatics, and I comment on it, and someone else complains about *my* post. LOL. But Raijinn must be consistent, so that's how it goes.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>Amazing how these folks will argue a Templar's utility is those lotto healing spells then also argue we get crappy DPS because we have those lotto healing spells.  <BR><BR>Are those lotto healing spells our utility or our DPS replacement?  Which is it?  hmmm?  Who's not seeing the big picture?<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It's not just your "Lotto" healing spells, granted you have more of these than any other priest class.. and with them combined. and now the increased proc rates (thank you devs) they are actually a reliable source of healing in many (Not all) situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our wards will absorb ONE huge hit.. that's were we have an advantage.. but when there are multiple targets hitting, the reactive simply cannot be beat for how that damage is handled.. Every priest class has an edge in certain situations.. Defilers are the kings for the single big baddy because of our amount of debuffs, and how much damage a ward will absorb in one shot.. but as soon as you throw in mulitple targets the Cleric will win out for healing capacity, and keep that tank in the green longer and more efficiently. Druids for healing are more versitile from what I've played, and their healing is more consistant whether it is one big target, or multiple weaker targets due to the nature of HoT's...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars are very much needed in a raid situation.. especially post 50 where you get your ancient teaching spells.. Our guild will never do a raid without a templar in the MT group..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with you that soloing sucks.. our DPS is almost equal to yours. our slows keep the ward from being pounded in that one hit.. or at least give us time to get another up when that ward gets mashed in one hit..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes our single target heals are identical to Templars.. but those are the ONLY heals that we have.. whereas you have reactives for the multi mob encounters that will keep that tank in the green and I can only debuff / slow one mob at a time..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all have our strengths in different areas, and every priest has its place..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tempars are a necessary for Raids and the MT group.<BR>Inquisitors are the best for that melee DPS group because of their buffs.<BR>Mystics are better for debuffing multiple targets<BR>Defilers are the best for debuffing single targets and huge hits.</DIV> <DIV>I don't know enuf about wardens to comment effectively.</DIV> <DIV>Furys are the kings for solo and small group environments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every priest will shine when put in the right situation, and will have it's strenghts over any other.. </DIV>

[Viane]

Duoed with my 54 fury buddy last night (I'm a 55 temp).  When she nuked for 1700,  I wanted to cry...on my best day I'm lucky to nuke for 350.  Templars need something-give us better heals or better damage, I dont care, but SOMETHING.  Its disheartening to log in everyday and see all the changes made to the other classes while we get...nothing. 

[Stjarna Kvar]

<P>You are claiming you use this every day and it's great for you? </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffcc size=1>I use our Utility Line Heals every day in grouping situations and only have to cast reactives and direct heals when my group is taking on Really Challenging content.  And without those Utility Line Heals, I wouldn't be able to take on Really Challenging content.  But then again, I'm only lvl 44, what would I know compared to a Tier 6 templar.</FONT></P> <P>Ignoring the small fanboy element, all the Templars are saying the same thing, pretty much. </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffcc size=1>Ignoring the fanboy element means we should ignore the "Curate Line/Mark Line is crap" crowd as well.  Both allow their passion to cloud tier objectivity.</FONT></P> <P>What we ask for is so inherently reasonable, only the extremely biased could deny it in pricniple. </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffcc size=1>Agree.  I think the Templar needs to be looked at.  I've posted positive suggestions in your well formed posts, and agreed with you often.  From what I've seen from this release, we are gettign some love--just not the kind of love that some people want.  SOE's view of a Templar may not be the same as what some people in the community think it should be.</FONT></P> <P>Sigh, despite your words, it is still flamebait to come to the Templar boards and tell hundreds of players we are all mass-hallucinating, and link to extremist nutter sites. </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffcc size=1>I'm a templar, so to say "come to the Templar boards" is a bit misleading.  That was a link for those youngin's out there to know what the heck I was talking about.  Not many people know who Jim Jones was any more, so the term Cool-Aid drinker would have been lost on them.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>In Conclusion:</P> <P>You took it personally.  Sorry.  Now I understand why you and Kenriche get into these heated battles all the time--you both hold an extreme passion for the class.  I don't want to make any enemies, and certainly don't want my opinion Ninja'd.</P> <P>Please stop arguing that the curate/mark/fate lines are useless... there are some out there who don't hold your opinion  *raises hand* on that account.  I use em all the time.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Skydude]

<DIV>The original poster is completely right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't condone nerfs of any kind but lets say.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Take away Fury group invis and give them a small attack that heals for 200 points on the MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Take away Fury DPS and replace them with 300 DMG spells with short timers that reduce hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Remove SoW from all healer classes and give them all oddessy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Remove Slow spells from Defilers and replace it with a cute little mob that has a 20% chance to hit the mob for 50 points dmg and do a small group heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Remove evac from Wardens and give them a broken mezz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Remove Power buffs form all classes and replace them with HP buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. Let all healing classes wear broken plate armor that still has the strictures that come with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What have we left? A Templar!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As ridiculous as this post seems, its just as ridiculous for other classes to come to these forums and try to negate any of the concerns we have as a class. If there are Templars littering your forums with complete gibberish as you are all doing to ours, then you have my apologies for that persons trangression.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing is a Templars utility if some of you haven't noticed. We were supposed to have an edge in that department and it has been taken from us. As far as I'm concerned the Fury is the uber healer class now with diverse set of tools available to them. Do I want them nerfed? No I do not. They can out dps a Warlock in certain situations and that to me is just plain wrong, but I'm not crying nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If SOE wanted to balance the healing classes, well just have one healing class! Lets all have the same abilities and be non-descript robots hacking at epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My whole point is SOE has fumbled this to an extent that its almost laughable, yet they still stay silent and do their own thing without addressing the community. In a couple short months DDO and Vanguard will be out though so they better get on the ball or EQ2 will be a Massive Multiplayer Tax Write Off. Will I migrate? I don't know. I love this game and think it has a lot of potential still. I just think they should rattle some cages within their own departments or fire who is at the top, because you plain as spit have no clue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skydude wrote: <div>If there are Templars littering your forums with complete gibberish as you are all doing to ours, then you have my apologies for that persons trangression.  </div><hr></blockquote>I think there might be.</span><div></div>

[Eileithia]

<EM>They can out dps a Warlock in certain situations and that to me is just plain wrong, but I'm not crying nerf.</EM> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only if the Warlock is AFK will this happen. :smileywink:</DIV>

[Skydude]

<DIV>HEHE think what you may, we did the tests. I won't post any of what we did, because when we do it, we do a wide range of tests. Do your own and you'll see that that statement is 100% true. In certain SITUATIONS they can out dps a Warlock. Don't refute something you have no idea about please, it only makes any of your future posts as moot as this one. </DIV>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Remove evac from Wardens and give them a broken mezz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. Remove Power buffs form all classes and replace them with HP buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. Let all healing classes wear broken plate armor that still has the strictures that come with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing is a Templars utility if some of you haven't noticed. We were supposed to have an edge in that department and it has been taken from us. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok Skydude, you have some issues you need to work out.  </P> <P>5)  The warden evac is about as good as odessey.  Its an out of combat transport spell.  It has a 5 sec cast and a 15 sec recast.  It can be interrupted, and it can fizzle.  In a group the last person that should be casting the evac is the Warden.  In order to cast it, I have to stop healing.  If I stop healing the tank is dead.  So its either hang the tank out to dry and save my own skin, or let another class evac.  Since I want to be invited into groups again in the future, I choose to continue healing.  Take it from me, the grass is just as green over here, when it comes to evac.</P> <P>6) We were all hit hard during the revamp, all my buffs are mitigation variants, with exception to the Bloodline Chronicles spell.</P> <P>7) Plate is broken, and should absolutely be a benefit to your abilities.  For 10 months it was, and most likely will be again.  Even with it being broken you still have the ability to pick and choose what armor you want to wear, with this ability your options are wide open.  So when plate armor gets fixed, which it will, this again will be a benefit of yours that no other priest class has.  <BR></P> <P>Your healing utility has not been taken away, what has happened is that other classes have had their primary spells, brought up to par, but you still have your utility healing.  You say its not much, ok how benefitial is a snare, root, or damage shield?  Its not benefitial to healing, but it is benefitial to defense and DPS.  Wardens being the defensive druid, I tihnk this fits, except snare is basically useless.</P> <P>Simply stating and/or agreeing with the statement that shaman and druids should be relegated to backup healers and clerics need to be number one is moronic, conceited and pompous.  The game from release has been intended that all priest classes can heal equally well.  To suggest otherwise is futile.  Should clerics get a DPS boost?  Possibly, but its not for me to say.  Would I be against it?  No, so long as they don't go overboard, but say a 10-15% boost may be in order.</P>

[Spag]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>HEHE think what you may, we did the tests. I won't post any of what we did, because when we do it, we do a wide range of tests. Do your own and you'll see that that statement is 100% true. In certain SITUATIONS they can out dps a Warlock. Don't refute something you have no idea about please, it only makes any of your future posts as moot as this one. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As a warlock as well, I would like to know which situations you are referring to.  The fury gets most of its DPS from multiple mob encounters.  Warlocks do as well.  The only situations I can fathom is resists and immunities, situational at best.</DIV>

[Lego]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>HEHE think what you may, we did the tests. I won't post any of what we did, because when we do it, we do a wide range of tests. Do your own and you'll see that that statement is 100% true. In certain SITUATIONS they can out dps a Warlock. Don't refute something you have no idea about please, it only makes any of your future posts as moot as this one. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As a warlock as well, I would like to know which situations you are referring to.  The fury gets most of its DPS from multiple mob encounters.  Warlocks do as well.  The only situations I can fathom is resists and immunities, situational at best.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'd love to see the situation you parsed this in.  Was the warlock dead at the time?<BR>

[bigmak20]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Skydude]

<DIV>LOL another one from a different class with little reading ability. What is our utility? Sending people back to their bind point? lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You obviously missed every point I was making there and really should go back to your own forum anyway. If healing is our Utility you should take a backseat. I know quite a few Wardens that have no trouble keeping a group up. Noone was asking for you to be nerfed. It was all hypothetical.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You other classes don't want to admit with every recent update and most likely future ones, Templars have been transformed into a generic healer. Nothing else has been improved or given to this class. We are a healer class with healing as our utility. I believe in most situations I can out heal any other class. I should be able to, its our freakin utility. But some of you really have no idea what utility consists of or know how to use them. You don't know how to cast a HoT and hit evac? lol Thats funny</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sony never said healing was supposed to be balanced when EQ2 came out. They changed their mind later and then said that so they could stand by a false pretense. Give up something brother. I've given up my armor you give up evac or Sow. LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all see how the scrubs will come running when there is a mere mention of nerf, but we're one of the most nerfed classes in this game. Sony just can't, in their infinite wisdom, figure out a solution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACK**</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Skydude on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:08 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Maldach]

<DIV>The definition of <STRONG><U>myopia</U></STRONG> according to Webster's Dictionary:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This thread.</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Here we go.....<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Odyssey: single target cast... cast time is something like 10 or 15 sec? long time.. and it is OUT OF COMBAT and slow as heck so I never paid attention to the length to cast.<BR><BR>You say your Evac is OUT OF COMBAT so why are you still healing the tank?  LOL<BR><BR>Apparently it's in combat eh?  5 sec cast? <BR></SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I know odessey is a longer cast time, and out of combat cast time does not mean anything.  Which is why evac is only really useful out of combat.  Yes it can be cast incombat, but thats my point, if I were to use it in combat I would have to stop healing to do so.  Don't be so thick.<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Plate is not the boon non-plate wearers think it is you get interrupted more and mit has too little of a benefit although it has some, etc, etc we probably all agree on that.  Sure I could go buy any tier of gear that's nice I guess but .. hell.. I like to match so I don't consider that a benefit.  Maybe it is to ppl that want to look like their playing WoW.<BR><BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is your battle, don't make it ours.  Saying because plate is hosed, you should heal more than everyone else, is simply BS.  It will get fixed.  Your preference to match, is your preference, the choice is yours.  This is a benefit, i.e. a bonus to your class.  If you want to match and wear all light armor, you can do so.  Funny though, I don't see any Templars doing this, plate must not be that bad after all.  Thats probably because avoidance does not bode well with the idea behind reactives.  If you took away the hits, you take away the healing, then you would be here complaining that you dont get hit as much while soloing, and that when you do its for large amounts, which is horrible for reactives.  Your choice, you choose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>I disagree with some of the Templars on our utility... we have some good utility.  Most of it is lotto style and still needs more dialing up to be viable.  But there are good arguement to be made for our utiltiy being our lotto heals.  Argue whether you like that or it's worth it... but there it is.<BR><BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I have no problem with this, cleric utility is healing.  This was part of the spellset since launch, so no excuses there.  Though the numbers may need another look, again, not my call.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Still doesn't answer the question why our DPS is so low.  Been around this debate probably about 100 times now and it always ends on the same point.  No justifiable reason for any priest to have such intolerably low DPS in the age of near equal healing.  No reasonable person would think balanced healing would be appropriate when there's such wide variance in DPS within the priest class. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again I have no problem with a bit of a DPS boost for clerics.<BR><BR><BR></DIV>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to match and wear all light armor, you can do so.  Funny though, I don't see any Templars doing this, plate must not be that bad after all.  Thats probably because avoidance does not bode well with the idea behind reactives.  If you took away the hits, you take away the healing, then you would be here complaining that you dont get hit as much while soloing, and that when you do its for large amounts, which is horrible for reactives.  Your choice, you choose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>BINGO!<BR>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>LOL another one from a different class with little reading ability. What is our utility? Sending people back to their bind point? lol</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This was part of your spell set since the beginning, sorry you don't like it.  This is one of the reasons I did not roll a cleric.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You obviously missed every point I was making there and really should go back to your own forum anyway. If healing is our Utility you should take a backseat. I know quite a few Wardens that have no trouble keeping a group up. Noone was asking for you to be nerfed. It was all hypothetical. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't have a problem keeping a group up anymore since LU15.  You can say it was hypothetical all you want, but it was a call for a nerf, in a way.  It was a call for clerics to be the uber healer, and shaman and druids to be  pee break assistants.  I don't normally read the Templar boards, but this one was brought to my attention, by a Templar.  If someone is going to ask for my class to become useless, you are darn right I am going to speak out.  Utility can be healing, but it should only increase your healing by a small %.  How much DPS do you think my utility gives me?  Maybe 5%.<BR></P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>You other classes don't want to admit with every recent update and most likely future ones, Templars have been transformed into a generic healer. Nothing else has been improved or given to this class. We are a healer class with healing as our utility. I believe in most situations I can out heal any other class. I should be able to, its our freakin utility. But some of you really have no idea what utility consists of or know how to use them. You don't know how to cast a HoT and hit evac? lol Thats funny</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes you have healing utility, thats my point.  I am sorry if you expect that healing utility to allow you to be so overpowered that you need only cast a reacive and go back to watching TV.  Thats not the way its going to work for you.  Healing utility, just as any utility is only going to make a small % difference to differentiate the classes.</P> <P>Funny you think that in a group that is about to wipe, that a HoT or group HoT  is going to sustain it for 5 seconds.  Let me turn it around on you, you are not in that situation, and do not have a clue.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sony never said healing was supposed to be balanced when EQ2 came out. They changed their mind later and then said that so they could stand by a false pretense. Give up something brother. I've given up my armor you give up evac or Sow. LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When the game was released, all classes were to be able to perform their main role equally well.  For the priest class, the main role is healing.  I don't take this literally, as in point for point.  Templars can have an edge due to their utility healing, I have utility DPS.  It balances out. </P> <P>SoW is strictly out of combat utility.  You can buy a SoW totem cheap and get my utility.   As I stated evac is basically only used as an out of combat travel spell, just like odessey is.  In any real situation that needs an evac, the wizzie or scout in the group will fire it off, while I continue to try to heal.</P> <P>So you have give up your armor huh, so what are you wearing now?  Chain, Leather, Cloth?  Nope I bet you still wear plate.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, Spag your not even a real warlock yet, guess you'll have to wait to do your tests. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Correction, I have been a real warlock since lvl 20.  My lvl 23 Dark distortion hits a single target for 600-700 at adept3, as my others do approx 400.  My AE nukes hit all mobs in encounter for 500+.  What level is your warlock?  Looking down ones nose will only make them crosseyed.<BR></P>

[Skydude]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <P><BR> No this is just another misconception of your twisted mind. I'd rather work for what I get, I knew what I was rolling only to have it changed at a later date to not even be close to its former self. If you view your class as useless prior to LU 15, well then you just have no idea how to play a Warden. You've twisted this for your own pre-concieved notions and its not working here buddy. I made that list ( a ridiculous one that I stated) so some of you might actually shut up and realize our utiility is in need of repair. Yet you came here fired up and on a Warden Crusade. Yet you took the list literally instead of for what its intended purpose was, our utility or dps needs attention and you can not deny that. I personally never wanted to be a DPS character, thats why I read the manual and forums before I made a Templar. I wanted to heal and be the best because after all you said it, it is our utility.</P> <P>I am a firm believer that all classes needed to have adjustments made and was a champion for Warden, Mystic, Defiler and Fury to get some needed adjustments. Then when a Templar asks for a little SOE loving you guys come unglued and lose all your senses.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is a difference between LU13 and LU 15.  13 turned us on our heads, and 15 helped straighten it out.  Before the revamp I could heal, after 13 it was futile attempt to heal for a group, after 15, I could heal again.</P> <P>I mentioned in my posts that a cleric DPS increase may indeed be needed.  Thats pretty much backing up what many Templars are asking for.  I see that agreeing, you see it as,.... well I don't know what.</P> <P>I agree through your healing utility you should be able to top other healers, but that amount should only be a small amount 10% or so.  Not so large to relegate all other classes to backup healing.  Anything higher will do so.</P> <P><BR><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <P>LOL I can play a lvl 56 Warden anytime I so Choose as my girl has one and apparently you are not her or my equal. I know what a Warden can do as one is being played on the computer sitting next to me or on this very machine with me at the controls. Our heals have a 6 second timer, your Evac has 5, ummm problem there?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow so because you know someone who plays a warden you know all.  How does your "girl" feel about you wanting her to be a backup healer?</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <P>Actually I'm a strategist that wears the appropriate garments per encounter. I bet you'd salivate over some of the gear I do employ. Most often I do sit around in my plate though as I don't need to pose in an Invoker to turn a head.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah now I feel really sorry for you in your fabled gear, most of which I bet I would not even have the option of wearing.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <P>OK so your have a character that is a Warlock. He's of low level and you have some different spells coming. I liken it to a pre-pubescent with his first chin hairs. You'll get there buddy. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hahah you make me laugh.  I realize he is not endgame, but there is more to the game than endgame.  Funny how you bash my warlock and say I know nothing about the class, yet you don't even have one.  Me thinks you are a hypocrite.<BR><BR></P> <P>It is clear to me you assumed the Templar would be the end all be all of the healing classes, and come to find out you are not.  As a result you are mad at the world.  You wont be happy till you can solo heal a 24 player raid, and can solo red heroics.</P> <P>If you don't want my endorsement for better dps to go with your healing utility, say so.  Till then, get off your high horse.</P>

[Skydude]

<P>**REMOVED DUE TO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote: <DIV> <DIV>I do not want to be, nor are we intended to be, a back up healer in a group so the Templar can go pee.</DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, as some unnamed people say 'if you wanted to solo, you shouldn't have picke a cleric', this could be answered as 'if you wanted to be main healer, you should have picked a cleric'...<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh really? look at the game, and all the documentation and say that again.</P> <P>Sorry that the game didnt comply with D&D and other MMO'S, but if you read the documentation, and all of the quotes from the devs, they all say that all priests can heal equally. </P> <P>Let me just say that one last time, in the words of the man himself.<BR></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300><FONT color=#ffffff>Quote #1:</FONT></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Moorgard: "In our game, any member of an archetype can fulfill their main role in a group <STRONG>as well as any other."</STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Quote #2:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=genmed><B><FONT size=2>WarNipple wrote:</FONT></B></SPAN>No one at lvl 100 is going to say, "to complete our group, we need a Scout". <----Because that could be anyone of 6 ACTUAL classes.</DIV><SPAN class=postbody> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><BR><BR><FONT color=#ff3300 size=2>Moorgard: "In fact, it's our goal for people at *all* levels to say that very thing, because it would mean that the archetype system works and every class can <STRONG>perform its core role as well as any other</STRONG>."</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></SPAN><BR>get the picture? We didn't make the rules, we just play the game. Sorry if your pre-conceptions caused you to assume incorrect things about the classes, but now you have an opportunity to read the documentation and work from there.</P> <P>No dev or publicized material for EQ2 has ever said that one healer is supposed to keep a group alive better than any other.</P> <P>Sorry.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I agree with the OP as well and I could write a novel as to why but I'm sure I'd be shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But at the end of the day, you still have to answer the question:  Does the system you've adapted to, actually work?  Can you say that every single priest class is enjoying the game?  Have they re-rolled or quit?  If so, how many?  What do the rantings in their forums tell us?  What do our testers tell us?  What does the internal testing tell us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You just can't stop at the design plan and declare that the OP's opinion is therefore wrong.  You have to follow the design through and determine whether or not it was successful in its implementation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's face it, this was not the implementation for more then a year (including beta) despite the written overviews I've read 100 times.  I can also point you to several other written projections that never came to light to date and conversely, statements of things they did not intend to implement which we did see.  We've debated this before.  It's really meaningless to rehash what they said they'd do during production, said they wouldn't do during beta and possibly said they might do later on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is important is answering the question:  Did it all work?  We have 6 priest classes and a handful of heals to pass out.  Did it all work?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have access to the data of total played hours for each priest class since LU#13.  But I'm sure SoE does.  If this board is any indication though, I'd tend to believe they have more work ahead of them to get it right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shennr]

A fury can out DPS a Warlock in group encounters that last for 10 seconds or less.  With high enough int buffs they can cast Star Nova which hits each target in the encounter for 2000 instantly, no ticks of 500 or so.  So, if the encounter has anywhere from 5 and up mobs and the encounter lasts a very short duration the fury can put out 10000 + instant damage.  You put a Wizard and a warlock and even a troubador in the group then the encounter will die extremely fast with the Fury always having the Top DPS.

[Dalchar]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Shennron wrote:A fury can out DPS a Warlock in group encounters that last for 10 seconds or less.  With high enough int buffs they can cast Star Nova which hits each target in the encounter for 2000 instantly, no ticks of 500 or so.  So, if the encounter has anywhere from 5 and up mobs and the encounter lasts a very short duration the fury can put out 10000 + instant damage.  You put a Wizard and a warlock and even a troubador in the group then the encounter will die extremely fast with the Fury always having the Top DPS. <div></div><hr></blockquote>ROFLOL So we find a way to make it happen, then we have the situation.... you know, this doesn't seem like much of an arguement.... it's more like stacking the cards than a realistic situation.  Huzzah!! Once in a blue moon on the third sunday of october during leap year I'll actually outperform a warlock who's actively at their computer attempting to deal damage.  Not to mention that the dps number really mattered little, what happened was the entire group loaded with huge fast dps just simply slaughtered the group in nothing flat, who did what numbers were largely irrelevant... esp considering that the fight likely would have only lasted 4 seconds longer (max considering you have bard + 2 mages using aoes that tick each second for 500+ per second)  at most had the fury not casted starnova.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<blockquote><p><font color="#cc0000">I'm glad you are rolled a Fury, because honestly, you have no clue how to play a Templar to it's full capacity.</font></p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>And you do? LOL</span><div></div>

[Naithik]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT AND PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<DIV>Naithik, this talk about going to the bathroom during groups is really getting on my nerves.  It's such a fallacy.  If anyone is using the facilities during groups, it's everyone BUT the MT and the healer.  So give that one a rest already.  It's old.  You're all just saying it because you saw someone else post it.  It's bunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The archetype system says that when I became a Templar, I was to progress in my chosen path uniquely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You show me where I'm more unique then the rest of the archetypes when you factor in your utilties, dps, gear and healing capacity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, the OP does have a point because some people enjoy having a vital role, instead of a support or a shared role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why don't we just throw out the entire term archetype, I hated it anyway, give us all the same spells and slap a new title on us?  Because basically what you are saying is, you can have what I have, but I'm keeping the heals or I'm quitting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's ironic about this entire thread is that in essence, when you all say the above, you are AGREEING with the OP.  You are saying no class should be any different then the other, which then, makes you ONE class, not SIX!  Therefore, you all want to be primary healers and that's exactly what the OP just said she wanted to be.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>hmm no that if all is balanced why do we need subclasses blabla bs this is so easy and well kinda stupid.</P> <P>Classes cab achieve the same thing: keep a group alive by different means (for instance slow dmg of target +heal, </P> <DIV>add dmg + heal, heal+heal, etc. balancing can be achieved by different means its not like saying we all heal the same we are now the same and deal with dmg to our group the same way, thats bs.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I add dmg and do dmg (help my group get a mob down faster) while healing my group thats the way a fury keeps a group alive our added dps is our sec ability/utility, you dont honestly think furies and templars heal the same do you?? If we do heal the same then some of you sec ability spells (aka extra healing in procs etc) need to be boosted  some (then show what spells are underpowered n your opinion) and yes perhaps in most circumstances the extra healing maybe isnt really needed, then you should look for more challenging content but the added healingpower is there (at least the core is there, if its not enough ask for something to be done about that instead of pointing to other classes which "heal and do dps too much" asking for them to be brought down aka as asking for nerfs).</DIV> <DIV>Also I as a fury once outdamaged a warlock and that was against that karmut heroic in silent city which is immune to nox the tank a sk was nox buffed a lot so no real healing was needed and I could just go nuke ho dot dot nuke etc. etc. and yes I outdamaged a warlock in that one as her dmg was 0 or close to 0.</DIV> <DIV>Also when I would group up and we would attack a grey group and i hit starnova first i would be on top of the dps list too, lol [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are you talking about when you fight green groups or so and starnova hits em down to more than half yes I would be on top of the dps list but thats not really a fair comparison as warlocks BY FAR outdmg furies, its these exaggerations that im really getting sick of you guys should really rethink what youre doing here...</DIV> <DIV>(Ive got some templar friends and yes some are not happy with the changes, they say some of their spells are crap why dont you guys come together and try to get the broken spells fixed? also I havent seen a comparison between templars and you evil brothers inq´s as one of my buddies said he was gonna lvl up his inq alt as they were so much better than templars I think its odd that templars seem to focus on a comparison between the classes the farthest away from each other instead of looking into the differences between clerics).</DIV> <DIV>Till you get your act together, most of us will just be thinking: `Only on the templar boards...`</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:03 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>hmm no that if all is balanced why do we need subclasses blabla bs this is so easy and well kinda stupid.</p><span class="time_text"></span><hr></blockquote>You are right. But since you are the one who wants all healers to heal the same, then you are then one who thinks that there should be no subclasses. You see if all classes heal the same, but subclasses are made by different DPS, you end up with just one class being used. Result is what you think is stupid. If all classes heal the same and have the same dps, all classes are played, but essentially all classes are the same. Pick up which one you want. Of course there is the 3rd option. All classes dont heal the same and better healing classes have less dps. All classes are still played. As for increasing cleric proc heals... That is stupid idea. We need heals that can be relied upon. Not some 'it might work - usually not' -trick heals. One boost would be the removal of stun from Focused Benefaction. That would give templars about 40% boost to spike damage healing. Or removal of the proc percentage from our utility heals so those would give the effect every time.</span><div></div>

[Kayle]

<DIV>You give me one good reason why this game needs SIX balanced healer types Quetzaqotl against mobs that have offensive abilities I can count on one hand and then come back and call me stupid.  EQ1 boasts mobs that can make the ones in this game look like a Crushbone Orc by comparison. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until then, all I'm going by is the incessant demands for equality from day #1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may as well do as the OP says, cut it back to 3 priest classes and spread out the spells from there to ensure vital roles in each.  Because as it stands right now, the vital role is where the cures are and nothing else.  That's a lame reason to keep 6 priest classes around, fighting over a few spells and dps because nothing else was offered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The rest of your rant is just a ramble.  I have no idea what your point is about warlocks and all that.  But if you want to turn this thread into another flame fest you started before, I'm sure Raijinn will step in to stop you.  Don't come to our boards to insult us.</DIV>

[Kayle]

<P>Well, at least Timaarit got it.  Thanks Tim!  :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[quetzaqotl]

Oh man why did I start about warlocks? hmm maybe because someone said a fury outdamages a warlock???!! <DIV>Btw Raijinn never deleted one of my posts or threads unlike so many templar threads.</DIV> <DIV>Ive said what I wanted to say if  someone doesnt understand it, its their problem (maybe reading helps in understanding).</DIV> <DIV>What are you talking about flames heh thats rich with an op as this one has this thread needs to be locked and thrown away.</DIV>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>hmm no that if all is balanced why do we need subclasses blabla bs this is so easy and well kinda stupid.</P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are right. But since you are the one who wants all healers to heal the same, then you are then one who thinks that there should be no subclasses.<BR><BR>You see if all classes heal the same, but subclasses are made by different DPS, you end up with just one class being used. Result is what you think is stupid. If all classes heal the same and have the same dps, all classes are played, but essentially all classes are the same. <BR><BR>Pick up which one you want. <BR><BR>Of course there is the 3rd option. All classes dont heal the same and better healing classes have less dps. All classes are still played.<BR><BR>As for increasing cleric proc heals... That is stupid idea. We need heals that can be relied upon. Not some 'it might work - usually not' -trick heals. One boost would be the removal of stun from Focused Benefaction. That would give templars about 40% boost to spike damage healing. Or removal of the proc percentage from our utility heals so those would give the effect every time.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not going to put this all here.. but NO subclasses are not all defined by DPS.. they're defined by a whole WHACK of other spells.. Like Wards, HoT's, Reactives, Slows, Damage Types, Debuffs, Buffs, Armour, Emergency Spells, and the list goes on..</P> <P>The problem I think you have is that you believe that there are only two aspects to a healer.. Heals, and DPS.. that's not the case at all. (They're just the easiest for your to measure)</P>

[Skydude]

<DIV>This is getting ridiculous. You guys come to our forums and misconstrue all our points to what you think we're really saying, but you don't do or say anything constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is Furies are way overpowered as of right now. I'm not calling for a nerf, I just find it amazing that DEVs think they're doing a good job with this balancing act. I was the one that said they can out dps a warlock in certain situations and yes, they can. What you think is a green easy MOB to you that you can wipe out in next to 4 seconds, a group of 3 mind you. Is a tedious process for a Templar of the same level as well as Wardens, Mystics and others in the priest class and thats ok we were never supposed to be dps. I admit its only limited situations and definitely not in raids that a fury can out dps a warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do feel we still have somewhat of an edge on healing and thats rightfully so, it is our utility. For a Fury to heal as well as all the other classes is ludicrous at best. They can out heal a Warden right now in quite a few cases. All classes are about right where they need to be, but for you to out DPS them and out heal them (not talking about Templars because you still can't out heal us), with almost the same beneficial buffs, add invis and sow, I can't believe they even take this in stride like they are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Technically we're not broke, neither are any of the other classes with their recent upgrades. But yes Furies sit in the drivers seat right now with all they can provide to groups. Maybe I should just roll one, I still feel its a marketing tactic sony uses to keep us occupied given the lack of content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For however much any of you thought Templars were overpowered, the case is not anymore, I can live with that I rolled a pure healer. If you want to look at what is broke look at Furies, sad thing is half of them don't even know what they have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL start the flames, but its the truth.</DIV>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Spagma wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Skydude wrote: <div>LOL another one from a different class with little reading ability. What is our utility? Sending people back to their bind point? lol</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This was part of your spell set since the beginning, sorry you don't like it.  This is one of the reasons I did not roll a cleric.</p> <blockquote> <hr></blockquote></blockquote></span><span><span> <font color="#ff99ff">Not to mention 100% combat rez, mez, pacify, stun, and Sanctuary.    High level templars who cry about thier lack of utility make their own cause look bad.  They have some of the best in-combat utility when it comes to the priest classes and denying that just makes them less credible.  Is it possible that lower level templars aren't as well off?  Sure.  Lots of classes have levels that are tougher than others.  Lots of classes don't get some of their unique abilities until mid-high levels.   I agree (and I have yet to see anyone who doesn't) that templar dps could use a boost.  But utility does not appear to be a problem for templars.  At least not relative to the other classes. </font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font> </span></span><div></div>

[Vylo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is getting ridiculous. You guys come to our forums and misconstrue all our points to what you think we're really saying, but you don't do or say anything constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is Furies are way overpowered as of right now. I'm not calling for a nerf, I just find it amazing that DEVs think they're doing a good job with this balancing act. I was the one that said they can out dps a warlock in certain situations and yes, they can. What you think is a green easy MOB to you that you can wipe out in next to 4 seconds, a group of 3 mind you. Is a tedious process for a Templar of the same level as well as Wardens, Mystics and others in the priest class and thats ok we were never supposed to be dps. I admit its only limited situations and definitely not in raids that a fury can out dps a warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do feel we still have somewhat of an edge on healing and thats rightfully so, it is our utility. For a Fury to heal as well as all the other classes is ludicrous at best. They can out heal a Warden right now in quite a few cases. All classes are about right where they need to be, but for you to out DPS them and out heal them (not talking about Templars because you still can't out heal us), with almost the same beneficial buffs, add invis and sow, I can't believe they even take this in stride like they are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Technically we're not broke, neither are any of the other classes with their recent upgrades. But yes Furies sit in the drivers seat right now with all they can provide to groups. Maybe I should just roll one, I still feel its a marketing tactic sony uses to keep us occupied given the lack of content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For however much any of you thought Templars were overpowered, the case is not anymore, I can live with that I rolled a pure healer. If you want to look at what is broke look at Furies, sad thing is half of them don't even know what they have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL start the flames, but its the truth.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>AGREE!!!!! glad someone finally said it...</DIV>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morie wrote:<BR><SPAN><SPAN><BR><FONT color=#ff99ff>High level templars who cry about thier lack of utility make their own cause look bad.  </FONT></SPAN></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I for one am sick of reading posts from whiners of other classes, coming here telling me I am "crying" when I make valid comments on the deficiencies in my own class, about which they are clueless, on my own class board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>RAIDING TEMPLARS are less disatisfied, as a whole, because the utility that Templars have, poor as it is, has best application in that setting. It means, when used in raids, that Templars retain a narrow lead in healing, which makes our class have some role. That is not to say, some raiding Templars do not have valid concerns, and they should be able to post on them on the TEMPLAR FORUM without trolls from other classes coming here calling them whiners, crybabies, or other such nonsense. But I do not post on raiding issues personally, as ... I do not raid. I do not criticise those who do, however, they are fellow Templars, and this rounding on others of our own class has to stop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, grouping non-raiding players, who chose TEMPLAR to have a significant healing edge in small groups and on normal (not-especially-challenging) content are the ones with the most to complain about right now, since there is now no such edge, and a lot less of actual value than other priests (read: DPS and Utility of any value). If you were such a Templar, who had played in that role for the best part of a YEAR, like I am, and had the slightest clue what you were talking about, you would KNOW that the so-called utility spells we have are all just about useless in that setting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can honestly say, that if I were to play Templar tonight with some friends, I would actually reduce the effectiveness of my group by casting any of the Mark, Involuntary or Mez lines, by wasting time and power on tiny unreliable proc heals that the group would not even need were they to fire/land anyway. I may as well use my pathetic nuke and melee DPS, at least that helps A LITTLE... just not as much as if I were any other priest class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So frankly, if you are a hardcore raider who doesnt give a (*^^%* about non-raiding casual players who DO NOT RAID, and especially if you are that AND NOT EVEN A TEMPLAR (and hence hasnt got a clue about Templars anyway), how about removing yourself from this discussion, and let those of us who actually are in the know, communicate our message to SoE without all the meaningless noise being added?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We non-raiding Templars need some parity with other healers in DPS and Utility if we are only going to be equal healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Delete the Mark, Involuntary and Sign lines this very evening, and I wouldn't even notice. If we MUST accept equal basic ealing, give us <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>some utility that is useful to soloing and small groups</STRONG></FONT>, and some DPS that gives us a hope of competing with other priests in that setting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sheesh, why do you think so many Templars are sitting idle, and so many more are so upset and unhappy. We are because our class has been damaged and we care about that. If you don't, how about you just let us make our case and keep your destructive comments and trolling to yourselves, or at least, on your own forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [34 Fury] ... and rising.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Elda]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG></STRONG> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is getting ridiculous. You guys come to our forums and misconstrue all our points to what you think we're really saying, but you don't do or say anything <STRONG>constructive</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><STRONG></STRONG> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Want something constructive? here.<BR></P> <P><STRONG>NUMBER 1 TEMPLAR COMPLAINT:</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>"IF A FURY CAN HEAL LIKE A TEMPLAR, I WANNA DPS LIKE A FURY"</STRONG></P> <P>Hmm, well if the only 2 factors in playing a priest were DPS and Healing, that would make sense. Unfortunately there are more variables on the scale besides those two such as combat survivability, utility, travel powers and so...However...lets stop talking about DPS for one second, because really, only one priest out of 6 has any decent dps, the fury....so lets stop making it sound like you guys got shafted somehow. We all feel the lack of DPS, and the volume of your complaints about it just incites us to anger and prevents discussion.</P> <P>Good DPS    Bad DPS</P> <P>Fury               Mystic, Defiler, Inquisitor, Templar, Warden</P> <P>So complaining that you guys want DPS in exchange for furies gaining healing ability is silly, because is a complaint that could go to all priests. It's inflamatory and driving arguments...preventing you from saying what you really want fixed.  All non-fury priests are in the same dps boat, give or take 5% (and mystics are even lower than you).</P> <P><STRONG>ANSWER: ALL NON-FURY PRIESTS DON'T HAVE ANY DPS EITHER, STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THIS JUST AFFECTS YOU, WE ALL HEAR YOU AND FEEL THE SAME PAIN. </STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG>NUMBER 2: "IF WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE EQUAL HEALERS, I WANT EQUAL UTILITY"</STRONG></P> <P>I totally agree with the premise that if we're all going to be equal in heals, we all need to be equal in utility.</P> <P>first, I'll say that your out of combat utility is pretty poor. Note however that you usually compare it to EVAC, which only one priest class has....hmm seeing a trend? ONLY ONE PRIEST CLASS HAVS EVAC. I have SoW as my only out of combat utility. <STRONG>Ok, so once again, its you guys complaining you are gimped because of an ability that ONE PRIEST HAS.</STRONG></P> <P>Now in combat....you guys say you don't have any utility. Clearly your proc heals were intended to be your in combat utility...which may or may not have worked. However, you templars do not consider your proc heals to be any utility at all. Here are the general complaints I hear about your "utility"</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>-They hardly make a difference in the outcome of the battle, ok true.</P> <P>-They aren't worth casting in many situations as mobs die quicky, ok true.</P> <P>-They aren't worth the power cost compared to outright healing the damge, ok true.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem is, you don't understand that all classes "utility" works like this. I'm a defiler. I have 5 lines of debuffs (slows, attribute debuffs, DPS debuffs and more), all costing 150-250 power each which i can stack on a mob for an approximately 15-20% reduction in parsed damage.</P> <P>Why cast 1200 power of debuffs on a mob to reduce his total damage output over his lifetime from 5000 damage to 4000 damage, when i can cast a 1k ward for 150 power which does the same thing.</P> <P>The answer is simple. Because on hard targets, and raids, every little bit helps. On a raid or hard target, i need to cast all my debuffs AND all my wards just to keep my group alive.</P> <P><STRONG>ANSWER: TEMPLARS THINK OTHER CLASSES HAVE THESE UBER SPELLS WHICH TOTALLY TRIVIALIZE ENCOUNTERS WITH ONE CAST. WE DON'T. OUR "UTILITY" HAS LITTLE EFFECT ON THE BATTLE ALSO. WE USE IT TO ADD TO OUR HEALING ON HARD BATTLES. </STRONG></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG>NUMBER 3: RATHER THAN SAYING YOU HAVE NO UTILITY, MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT YOU FEEL YOUR UTILITY SHOULD DO.</STRONG></P> <DIV>As a defiler, stacking 7 lines of spells can reduce a single targets dps by 15-20%, and debuff pois/dis by 1k, and wisdom/agility by enough to increase a caster heavy groups DPS by approx 5% on parses. I can also SoW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So templars want to be construcive? Answer this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What do you think your utility should do? (let me remind you that your mitigation debuff parsed at AD3 increases group melee damage by near 10%, even a templar on the boards admits that)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Eldarn on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[Naithik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <DIV>Naithik, this talk about going to the bathroom during groups is really getting on my nerves.  It's such a fallacy.  If anyone is using the facilities during groups, it's everyone BUT the MT and the healer.  So give that one a rest already.  It's old.  You're all just saying it because you saw someone else post it.  It's bunk.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, someone said it. A templar too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The archetype system says that when I became a Templar, I was to progress in my chosen path uniquely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You show me where I'm more unique then the rest of the archetypes when you factor in your utilties, dps, gear and healing capacity.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Different healing type,</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>different buffs etc</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, the OP does have a point because some people enjoy having a vital role, instead of a support or a shared role.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>No one enjoys having a support or shared role. Everyone wants to be the best.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why don't we just throw out the entire term archetype, I hated it anyway, give us all the same spells and slap a new title on us?  Because basically what you are saying is, you can have what I have, but I'm keeping the heals or I'm quitting.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Your healing is fine. I don't see any issues with that. If you think there are, prove it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's ironic about this entire thread is that in essence, when you all say the above, you are AGREEING with the OP.  You are saying no class should be any different then the other, which then, makes you ONE class, not SIX!  Therefore, you all want to be primary healers and that's exactly what the OP just said she wanted to be.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Well if that didn't sound totaly sarcastic, i don't know what that was -.-</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Sa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>Not going to put this all here.. but NO subclasses are not all defined by DPS.. they're defined by a whole WHACK of other spells.. Like Wards, HoT's, Reactives, Slows, Damage Types, Debuffs, Buffs, Armour, Emergency Spells, and the list goes on..</P> <P>The problem I think you have is that you believe that there are only two aspects to a healer.. Heals, and DPS.. that's not the case at all. (They're just the easiest for your to measure)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For templars it is mostly about either healing or DPS. The majority of our "whole WHACK" of spells does what? healing or extra healing.  So yes we are mostly either arguing healing or dps.</P> <P>The way I see it: <BR>The special heals have been balanced. <BR>The direct heals have been balanced. <BR>The majority of other utility spells are kinda balanced or at least comparable (how useful they are is up for debate but not something I am willing to argue). </P> <P>However the base DPS spells are not balanced.  I think the 4 base spells each priest class gets (dot, nuke, AE, nuke/dot) need to be balanced similar to how they direct heals were across all priest classes. </P> <P>Currently Furies have about a 33% DPS advantage over templars against single target encounters given equal int and equal spell quality.  The Furies AE has about a 50% DPS advantage over templars against a single target and scales up radically from there with more targets. Furies are also more efficient damage dealer, using less power per point of damage on average than templars in almost every case. </P> <P>Even if balanced, Furies would still have a huge damage advantage over all the other priests classes due to their increased int and other damage oriented utility spells...<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kaldar</DIV> <DIV>53 Templar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eileithia]

<P>/Agree Eldarin,</P> <P>So many Templars here believe that their class should have SoW, Evac, Inviz, Crazy DPS, Slows, Debuffs, AND the Best heals in the game.. there isn't a SINGLE class that has all of these atributes, and all of these atributes are situational at best.. Most Furies that are filling the role of main healer in a group do NOT have time for their crazy long casting one spell that does 1500 AE damage.. they are focusing on healing.. as they should be.. </P> <P>SoW - Shamen, Druids<BR>Evac - Wardens<BR>Inviz - Furies<BR>Crazy DPS - Furies and Inquisitors<BR>Debuffs - Shamen .. (but all priests have some form of debuffs)<BR>Best Heals - Templars</P> <P>(and YES, I did play a templar, I quit the class because it bored me, it was TOO EASY.. please don't tell me I don't have a clue.. I often will play my friends Templar on raids as well when she can't make it, as we need the Templar, more than we need the Defiler)</P>

[Mor]

<div></div>Ok, so the only problem, according to Felishanna, is soloing and small groups.  Fine.  Are you going to tell me that a 100% combat rez is not useful in a small group situation?  Are you telling me that Sanctuary isn't useful in a group setting?   Pacify has saved my behind plenty of times.  I group with templars every night when not raiding and I know darned well how useful these spells <i>really</i> are both in raid <i>and group</i> settings.   Your utility is not a problem in either groups or raids. Soloing?  What is the single biggest problem with soloing for templars?  It takes too long to kill the mob.  Has anyone suggested you do not have a legitimate gripe?   Is there an issue with plate wearers and interrupts?  It's quite possible.   But why would anyone listen to the real problems that templars face when so many of the people doing the complaining have lost their credibility?   Templars have real issues that should be addressed.   But wild claims, exaggerations and ignoring the real benefits templars have is not going to help your cause.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Morie on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Finora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>Okay, I am going to put my 2cp out there, and then probably never come back to this thread since I am about to get flammed by a massive amount of druid's and shaman's an whoevery else disagree's. But here it is...</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>Everquest 2 is based largely on EQ1, both of which is based largely on D&D. In both of these games, Cleric's were/are THE TOP healers. That is what we did and should continue to do. A cleric's job is all about health. A cleric heals, and buffs health. That's it, all we get, done. And you are happy about it, since that is your job. You are highly in demand and you are the best healer. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>A druid and a shaman is not designed to be a "healer" although they have always fallen under this category. You get a druid and a shaman for their utility, and when the going gets rough, they are able to back up heal, as well. In EQ1 you would almost never see a druid or shaman as the main healer of a group. They could not do it. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Georgia><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>And, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSTED TO! All of the druids and shamans that have complained that they are not able to heal as good as a cleric really need to shut up. It is not your job to be the main healer, and you should not expect to be able to be one. Basically, you seem to want your cake and eat it, too! You are designed to use your great utilities and BACK-UP heal only. If you wanted to heal as good as a cleric, you should have played one. I played both a cleric and a druid in EQ1, so I have experienced what both classes should be. As a cleric, I healed and buffed. That's about it, but I was quite important and the group would not really have worked without me. With my druid on the other hand, I hardly ever healed, as there was a cleric in the group. So until that cleric needed an AFK, was OOP or things got out of hand with the mobs, I did not even look at my heal button. I was too busy doing my job and using my utilities!</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Georgia color=#66ccff><SPAN class=062063217-08112005>In closing, I refuse to ask for more utility as a cleric. I don't want utility. If I wanted sow, invis or to do massive dps, I would have played another class like you are supposed to. I ask that you bring our heals back up over those of the other priest classes. That means we need to go back to pre-LU13, where a clerics heals were faster to cast and healed more hp. That is how a cleric was, and that's how they should remain.  So please SoE, I beg you to make us what we once were, a very much needed and important healer. </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Since this is so obvious, I don't see why I need to state it in yet another thread but since this crap keeps coming up...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 does not = EQ1. Priest is a priest is a priest here.  Pre-update clerics still weren't the 'only god healers' like in EQ1. THANK GOD. This spew is what messes games up. Read class descriptions and game descriptions before you buy, roll up a character then complain because it isn't like the one you had in another game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALL priest can main heal here. ALL priests can do it very well indeed. And that is the way it always should be. Why be a priest if you can't heal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want it the old broken complete heal EQ1 way, please for god's sake go play it. Don't ruin EQ2 with that crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much all of the non-fury Priests want more dps. I know as a mystic I would desperately love to have just my little maul proc back. Just that and I'd be happy.  But when people post things like the OP, well that just is a discredit to the entire class that actually does have real problems.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Calendri on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <DIV>Naithik, this talk about going to the bathroom during groups is really getting on my nerves.  It's such a fallacy.  If anyone is using the facilities during groups, it's everyone BUT the MT and the healer.  So give that one a rest already.  It's old.  You're all just saying it because you saw someone else post it.  It's bunk.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, someone said it. A templar too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The archetype system says that when I became a Templar, I was to progress in my chosen path uniquely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You show me where I'm more unique then the rest of the archetypes when you factor in your utilties, dps, gear and healing capacity.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Different healing type,</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>different buffs etc</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, the OP does have a point because some people enjoy having a vital role, instead of a support or a shared role.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>No one enjoys having a support or shared role. Everyone wants to be the best.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why don't we just throw out the entire term archetype, I hated it anyway, give us all the same spells and slap a new title on us?  Because basically what you are saying is, you can have what I have, but I'm keeping the heals or I'm quitting.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Your healing is fine. I don't see any issues with that. If you think there are, prove it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's ironic about this entire thread is that in essence, when you all say the above, you are AGREEING with the OP.  You are saying no class should be any different then the other, which then, makes you ONE class, not SIX!  Therefore, you all want to be primary healers and that's exactly what the OP just said she wanted to be.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Well if that didn't sound totaly sarcastic, i don't know what that was -.-</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If that's the best answer you can come up with for those issues, you may as well have not posted at all, Naithik.  It never addressed a thing.</P> <P>And Morie, quit calling it mez.  Mages mez.  Templars pacify.  Big difference.  They threw a 16s duration pacify on our sign line because they nerfed what it used to do, which was a AoE strength debuff.  Huge nerf there and substituted it with a spell that is more trouble then it's worth to use.  It takes away from heal time.  In groups using AoE (which most of them do routinely) it's useless not to mention by the time you tell everyone what is pacified, they've already broken it and it's a 20s recast.  Templars I've seen using that all the time are complained about in groups and I've seen that.  When it first came out, I received tells from a guildie which read, "Wanna come heal for us?  This guy thinks he's a mage now instead of a priest."</P> <P>Sanctuary, lasts 30s and takes 3 minutes to use again.</P> <P>100% combat rez.  Go find your target, stand on top of it (1 meter radius), take 4 seconds to cast it.  Then wait another 2 minutes before you can cast it again.</P> <P>In a word, these spells are not crucial to a group situation.  Your group invis, sow, debuffs and greater dps is far more desirable and you know it.  So, you come in here and play down what you have and boost up what we do.  It's not going to fly.</P> <P>I'm getting tired of educating non-templar classes about what we have and what it does.  If you're going to post here, research the class first and tell the truth about how great the spells are.<BR><BR></P>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote: <blockquote> <hr></blockquote><p> In groups using AoE (which most of them do routinely) it's useless not to mention by the time you tell everyone what is pacified, they've already broken it and it's a 20s recast. </p> <p><font color="#ff99ff">Then make a macro for it!  Geez, have you never grouped with an enchanter?  The truth is, this spell prevents a lot of adds in the groups I play in.  You can deny it if you want to, but if you're not using it then you've just left one more thing out of your arsenal of ways to save a group.</font> </p> Sanctuary, lasts 30s and takes 3 minutes to use again. <font color="#ff99ff">Yep.  And it's absolutely priceless for that 30s.  It's arguably the single best priest utility spell.  I can't think of any other that even comes close.</font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font> <p>100% combat rez.  Go find your target, stand on top of it (1 meter radius), take 4 seconds to cast it.  Then wait another 2 minutes before you can cast it again. </p> <p><font color="#ff99ff">Yep.  Again, priceless.  No other priest can get a team member back into the fight with no rez affects at 100% health.  </font></p> <p>In a word, these spells are not crucial to a group situation.  Your group invis, sow, debuffs and greater dps is far more desirable and you know it.  So, you come in here and play down what you have and boost up what we do.  It's not going to fly. </p> <p><font color="#ff99ff">Pot, meet kettle. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff99ff">I have no invis (although I do buy totems -- which you are free to do as well).  I have no debuffs.   We do get SoW and it is completely useless in a day and age where most people have horses.  I have not cast SoW on anyone other than myself in months.   It has <i>zero</i> application in combat.   </font></p> <p><font color="#ff99ff">You can lump together every other classes utility and then compare your own and say you don't measure up.  But there is no <i>single</i> priest class out there that has more in-combat utility than you do.   The wild claims you make just make it easy to overlook your <i>legitimate</i> points. </font></p> <p></p> <p>I'm getting tired of educating non-templar classes about what we have and what it does.  If you're going to post here, research the class first and tell the truth about how great the spells are. </p> <div></div><font color="#ff99ff">I have.  I do.  I play with one every night.   A good very good one in fact.  I know what a templar can do from firsthand experience.  You exaggerate all you like, but that only  reflects poorly on you.</font> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[DarkxLordxBu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>HEHE think what you may, we did the tests. I won't post any of what we did, because when we do it, we do a wide range of tests. Do your own and you'll see that that statement is 100% true. In certain SITUATIONS they can out dps a Warlock. Don't refute something you have no idea about please, it only makes any of your future posts as moot as this one. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>46 furry and 41 warlock here. This is so false its not even funny. My furry cant even come close to my warlock in dps even at 5 lvls above him. In any situtation DD or AOE dmg plain and simple. Furry's DPS is not that good. Yes, we have 2 big nukes but the recast timer on them is ridiculously long and since it's so long we get interrupted a bunch, reducing are dps even more. Wardens come close to us in DPS but we are still a bit above them. Im not saying a warden cant out dmg me becuase they have if i get interrupted alot wich does happen since my recast times are so long and theirs a little shorter. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as templers go yes, I agree they need some love. There utlity is worthless and ther dps sucks compared to other priest. However I dont think you guys are gonna get anywhere becuase your community is so divided. One side saying you want uber heals and other side saying we want more DPS. You guys realy need to make your minds up. I think you have better chance of getting a DPS boost and some better utility becuase as far as uber healing goes, I dont think you guys will ever see the days of pre 13. Just my 2 cents but if you do more power to you. Whatever happens I realy do hope you get some love. Being a furry and being a broken class for so long I know how it feels. </DIV>

[Skydude]

<DIV>LOL I'm convinced now some of you can't read. Eldarn quotes my opening statement in my latest thread, but ignores the rest and then goes on to repeat my post in his own words. lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noone here is crying for anything specific. One class is over powered for now. I doubt Sony will be able to ignore it for too much longer as it is creating chaos between all the classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why on earth is there people from all priest classes just doing rebuttals to the redundant posts? I'll tell you why. Some of you like drama, you thrive on being able to think you put someone in their place. Be constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead of all you other priest classes coming here and creating your own drama, lets go to the root of the problem. One class is considerably overpowered and all classes are paling in comparison when you look at all the skills involved. Sony has done a fairly decent job getting some of the classes balanced and in order. Thank god Mystics and Wardens don't create the aggro like they used to. Yet they have overpowered Furies and thats a fact none of you can deny, except maybe Furies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once this is brought in-line then we can argue the minor tweaks that our classes may need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So instead of your crusades against Templars, help us get this problem solved or fade. As all you guys are creating is noise. You may as well be 3 beating on pots and pans.</DIV>

[DarkxLordxBu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>LOL I'm convinced now some of you can't read. Eldarn quotes my opening statement in my latest thread, but ignores the rest and then goes on to repeat my post in his own words. lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noone here is crying for anything specific. One class is over powered for now. I doubt Sony will be able to ignore it for too much longer as it is creating chaos between all the classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why on earth is there people from all priest classes just doing rebuttals to the redundant posts? I'll tell you why. Some of you like drama, you thrive on being able to think you put someone in their place. Be constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead of all you other priest classes coming here and creating your own drama, lets go to the root of the problem. One class is considerably overpowered and all classes are paling in comparison when you look at all the skills involved. Sony has done a fairly decent job getting some of the classes balanced and in order. Thank god Mystics and Wardens don't create the aggro like they used to. Yet they have overpowered Furies and thats a fact none of you can deny, except maybe Furies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once this is brought in-line then we can argue the minor tweaks that our classes may need.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So instead of your crusades against Templars, help us get this problem solved or fade. As all you guys are creating is noise. You may as well be 3 beating on pots and pans.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Furrys are not overpowered at all. We were a broke since release and now that we are a fixed class the world hates us, besides that the only class i see saying we are overpowered is just the templer class(not all templers but most of nerf crys come from templers). You need to come to terms that you are not top dogs anymore. Stop crying and try to get your class fixed.  </P> <P>And yes i did give you some input on what might help fix the templer problem. DPS, Utility, Uber heals. I dont knwo what the heck you guys want becuase i hear about 5 differant things. If I was a dev i would ingnore you 2. Just looking at it from a bussiness stand point.  <BR></P> <P>Message Edited by DarkxLordxBurn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:22 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by DarkxLordxBurn on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Skydude]

<DIV>Well you aren't looking at all the classes across the board. I don't think we're broke, maybe a tad more DPS but we should be lowest of all healing classes in DPS. Some of our Utility may need a bit of tweaking, but not much, we're pretty well off. We are still the best healers and thats what I wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a class such as Furies to have all the positives that they do is gross negligence to all of the priest classes. With a Furies DPS they should be a step down in healing compared to Wardens, Defilers, Mystics, Inquisitors, and especially Templars. Not all, but in some cases a Fury can out heal a Warden and outshine Mystic's wards. Where is their positives? They both get Sow, oh but wait so do Furies. Can they come close to your DPS, My god no. They get a root, doesn't help them a whole heck of a lot when compared to a Fury being able to take a group down to speak to Naggy expeditiously compared to fighting the whole way down. Evac helps some, but not others without the play style to use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you have your cake brother, eat it while you can. I will say once again I think most classes have been balanced, Furies have been overpowered. They, with their DPS, shouldn't be able to touch any of the other classes in healing when you have a considerable DPS edge as well as a powerful group invis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doubt you see it my way, I did hear you, I just disagree. </DIV>

[DarkxLordxBu]

<DIV> <DIV>Still dont know where you get the idea that a furrys nukes are that uber. Once again I can tell you there not but think what you want. Templers can still out heal me hands down so think what you want about furrys. Anyways hope you find brighter days of playing your templer ahead of you. </DIV></DIV>

[Quiet Wand]

<DIV>Why did priests lose Blessed Weapon proc?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skydude~</DIV> <DIV>They get a root, doesn't help them a whole heck of a lot when compared to a Fury being able to take a group down to speak to Naggy expeditiously compared to fighting the whole way down. Evac helps some, but not others without the play style to use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wanted to mention at lvl 57 I can't go to Naggy by myself, or any where in CT temple. There are tons of see invis mobs now and Furies are quite squishy. I suggest to anyone wanting to go down there bring a group, evil Firestalkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think most druids would say they lack viable debuffs. I think Furies doing more dps because the other healer is doing all the healing. Most groups you only need one healer. My damage isn't going to be high if i need to do more then throw up a regen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Personally, I think the shamans turned out pretty cool =)  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Quiet Wander on <SPAN class=date_text>11-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:30 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Quiet Wander on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:30 PM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99ff>Pot, meet kettle.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99ff>I have no invis (although I do buy totems -- which you are free to do as well).  I have no debuffs.   We do get SoW and it is completely useless in a day and age where most people have horses.  I have not cast SoW on anyone other than myself in months.   It has <I>zero</I> application in combat.  <BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99ff>You can lump together every other classes utility and then compare your own and say you don't measure up.  But there is no <I>single</I> priest class out there that has more in-combat utility than you do.   The wild claims you make just make it easy to overlook your <I>legitimate</I> points.<BR></FONT></P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ff99ff>I have.  I do.  I play with one every night.   A good very good one in fact.  I know what a templar can do from firsthand experience.  You exaggerate all you like, but that only  reflects poorly on you.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wrong again, Morie.  You came in here snapping off a list of spells as if they were priceless.  Your reply even claims they are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I said was they were not crucial to a group.  They're low-duration fill-in spells thrown into the pot because SoE knew they needed to add something to "balance" out the scales.  They aren't VITAL.  You just twisted it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then YOU came in claiming we have mezz, which isn't even a word SoE uses to describe the sign line they changed from an AoE str debuff that lasted 3x as long.  I have an illusionist I play now, so I know the difference between mezz and pacify.   There's no contest whatsoever.  I know the difference between what sign of debility was before and is now.  Again, no contest whatsoever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the next time you come walking through another forum, try adding a signature so no one has to guess what class you play, and attempt to cover them all.  That reflects on YOU poorly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never said any priest class can't heal.  Go back and actually read what I wrote about the pitfalls of having 6 priest classes all healing for the same and then arguing over what makes them vital to a group.  Because that's exactly what goes on in every one of these threads, ad nauseum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more you guys come in here screaming how you're keeping your heals, take your other stuff, the more you agree you want your role to be primary healer and thus, just agreed with the OP.  Deny it all you like, but that's what I'm reading.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:31 PM</span>

[Mor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wrong again, Morie.  You came in here snapping off a list of spells as if they were priceless.  Your reply even claims they are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>You're right.  Some of yours really are.  You even have high level clerics on this forum who are afraid to mention Sanctuary because they're afraid it will get nerfed.  It really is that good.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't VITAL.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>Name one utility that is vital?  There are none!  No class or buff is VITAL!  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know the difference between what sign of debility was before and is now.  Again, no contest whatsoever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>Look,<EM> no class is what it was before the changes.  All healers were nerfed. </EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ff99ff></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV>And the next time you come walking through another forum, try adding a signature so no one has to guess what class you play, and attempt to cover them all.  That reflects on YOU poorly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>My main is a 58 warden, however I am leveling a priest who will be a templar quite frankly because high level templars have far, far more utility than wardens do at this moment.  But what is truly relevant is what is wrong with templars and what is not.    Soloing by all accounts is just painful for clerics.   If you focused on that, instead of asking to be gods among priests, you might actually get somewhere.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never said any priest class can't heal.  Go back and actually read what I wrote about the pitfalls of having 6 priest classes all healing for the same and then arguing over what makes them vital to a group.  Because that's exactly what goes on in every one of these threads, ad nauseum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff99ff>Huh?  Where is this straw man coming from?  You might want to focus a bit.  Perhaps re-read the thread.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more you guys come in here screaming how you're keeping your heals, take your other stuff, the more you agree you want your role to be primary healer and thus, just agreed with the OP.  Deny it all you like, but that's what I'm reading.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff99ff>You might want to rephrase this in some form that makes sense in English.</FONT> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>Bah - percentage proc heals like GoC, which because of the "lucky socks" principle seems to work best on scouts, the Mark line, and Curate are not solid utility. If you are gonna compare apples to oranges - lets do this shall we?</P> <P> </P> <P>Do your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SoWs, DS, Slows, etc. have a <EM>chance </EM>to proc?</P> <P> </P> <P>Yeah - thats what I thought. They give us the edge, but even if you are a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] canny player, relying on those heals, like you would other utility like ds and slows would be suicide. Its apples and orages I say - they should drop the proc rate. <EM>Thats</EM> utility, not a crappy crap-shoot. You follow? For the purpose they serve, they are <EM>not dependable.</EM> As far as dps goes, we all know that the priests, especially templars need a boost. Come on - a 300pt DD at 51? What were they smoking? My pali can <EM>proc</EM>, like our "utility", two-thirds of that at 38. </P> <P> </P> <P>Thats two bits worth - to hell with two cents.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Duntzzzz wrote:<p>Not going to put this all here.. but NO subclasses are not all defined by DPS.. they're defined by a whole WHACK of other spells.. Like Wards, HoT's, Reactives, Slows, Damage Types, Debuffs, Buffs, Armour, Emergency Spells, and the list goes on..</p> <p>The problem I think you have is that you believe that there are only two aspects to a healer.. Heals, and DPS.. that's not the case at all. (They're just the easiest for your to measure)</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>And that means exactly what? One 'heals' by preventing damage, one by healing right after damage and one over time after damage is taken. By definitions, all ways are equal. So how many aspects do you believe there is for a healer? Many say there is only one (=healing) since we are not meant to solo. Thus they justify their twisted view of how dps should be divided by name of the class. And in the next sentence they are 'no, of course the name of the class should mean nothing in how well the class heals'. Go figure.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eldarn wrote:<p>Good DPS    Bad DPS</p> <p>Fury               Mystic, Defiler, Inquisitor, Templar, Warden</p> <p>So complaining that you guys want DPS in exchange for furies gaining healing ability is silly, because is a complaint that could go to all priests. It's inflamatory and driving arguments...preventing you from saying what you really want fixed.  All non-fury priests are in the same dps boat, give or take 5% (and mystics are even lower than you).</p> <p><strong>ANSWER: ALL NON-FURY PRIESTS DON'T HAVE ANY DPS EITHER, STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THIS JUST AFFECTS YOU, WE ALL HEAR YOU AND FEEL THE SAME PAIN. </strong></p> <hr></blockquote>All right, how is this:<b> IF A FURY WANTS TO HEAL LIKE TEMPLAR; THEY SHOULD HAVE AS LOW DPS AS TEMPLAR </b>Now you did hit the mark, we want templars to have the same dps as furies have. What you missed is that this is templar board, so other classes are irrelevant here. I am sure they all want fury dps. But that demand should and will be made in their own boards, not in templar board nor in fury board. So in fact, you are only undermining furies, not posting anything constructive. You are also flaming. And trolling. <b></b></span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Also its bs fury and warden dps isnt far off from eachother.</P> <P>Also furies dont heal equal as templars that same old if furies want to heal like templars templars should do dps like a fury is so stupid.</P> <P>Furies dont heal like templar you have other sec abilities our sec abilities are all in the dmg dept. how would you balance that?</P> <P>A fury with all the dmg enhancing balanced dps wise to a templar (the most def of priests), dont you see how insane that is?!</P> <P>I guess not as some are on that 1 track mind of everyone heals equal so we need to do equal dps, thats so shortsighted that its really getting on my nerves</P> <P>why do we always have to keep explaining it to you guys Im getting tired of it.</P> <P>Make your own mind up for a change instead as running after each other like sheep.</P> <P>If something is broken, like some spells are not working as intended try and get that fixed instead of whining that class a has more dps while you seem to forget that class b clearly has something over class a (but please base your opinion off of someone who has a lvl 25 alt or has "seen" a fury in action geez).</P> <P>You can think of kendricke as a fanboi or something else but at least hes showing how he would like the spells that arent that hot be fixed and is trying to collect at least some data instead of running around posting bs on other classes.</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 AM</span>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Also its bs fury and warden dps isnt far off from eachother.</P> <P>Also furies dont heal equal as templars that same old if furies want to heal like templars templars should do dps like a fury is so stupid.</P> <P>Furies dont heal like templar you have other sec abilities our sec abilities are all in the dmg dept. how would you balance that?</P> <P>A fury with all the dmg enhancing balanced dps wise to a templar (the most def of priests), dont you see how insane that is?!</P> <P>I guess not as some are on that 1 track mind of everyone heals equal so we need to do equal dps, thats so shortsighted that its really getting on my nerves</P> <P>why do we always have to keep explaining it to you guys Im getting tired of it.</P> <P>Make your own mind up for a change instead as running after each other like sheep.</P> <P>If something is broken, like some spells are not working as intended try and get that fixed instead of whining that class a has more dps while you seem to forget that class b clearly has something over class a (but please base your opinion off of someone who has a lvl 25 alt or has "seen" a fury in action geez).</P> <P>You can think of kendricke as a fanboi or something else but at least hes showing how he would like the spells that arent that hot be fixed and is trying to collect at least some data instead of running around posting bs on other classes.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:14 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ahhh! My Arch Nemesis Quetzqotl!</P> <P>Matter of fact Furies can heal as good as a templar...I grouped with one a few nights ago. I must say his DPS was outstanding, he had no problem at all soloing. We poped in a group together and he also healed the MT very well almost as good as me..it took him more power BUT he still healed as good. Now i say he healed AS GOOD as me not better then me but AS GOOD. </P> <P>Now all Templars are asking is can our DPS be AS GOOD as furies not better but AS GOOD??...is that really to much to ask. To get a simple boost to our attack spells so we can deal some dmg? Furies got a boost to their heals to keep up so how come we can't get a boost to keep up? I can't believe that its totally fair you get a boost to better group healers and we can't DPS boost to become better soloers...</P> <P>Scared of us maybe?? =P</P>

[UniformMarsha]

<P><FONT color=#cc99ff>I like the current healing balance.  I am fine with groups being able to do most content with any priest class.  I have never been passed over for a fury or a shammy for key simple reasons:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>1) My spells are Adept 3 or better</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>2) Ive grouped with Shammies and Furies and given them the main healer spot only to see thier mana shoot down like a shot, where as If im the main healer my mana is level and doesnt run down as fast</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>3) I can cast a reactive or pre-heal while the tank is pulling a hard named mob and be able to take the AE and a couple of punches because im in plate.  Druids and Shammies end up in the low orange and waste mana getting themselves back up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>The healing aspect I see as divided with Inqs and Temps coming out a little bit ahead because of gear availability.  What needs to be fixed is Utility and DPS, although odyessey is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cool, perhaps against our classic undead enemy?  Remember Invise to Undead? and all our DPS nukes are divine magic and should do extra undead damage not just 1 line.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Yes thats what I mean healing isnt equal if healing is equal then what does your sec (/utility) ability do?? nothing?</P> <P>Yes all healers can keep a group alive now and in nomal situations the encounters arent that hard to notice a big difference in healing , but when you go to more challenging content the difference you can notice.</P> <P>Extra healing isnt always needed thats true but that doesnt mean all healers now can heal the same templars still have an edge in that dept. </P> <P>If you feel you dont have an edge in healing why dont you try and get your sec abilities fixed if they are so broken that noone notices it?!</P> <P>Ive got some templar buddies who dont like the game that much anymore can see they'd like to solo faster you can say they chose the most defensive class so they shouldve know soloing isnt a templars speciality but yeah that would be a crappy thing to say, sure add stuff like some solo buffs or something k cool make templars ok for soloing sure (hammerpet dmg shield whatever) however you should know that increasing dps is a furies' territory asking for our sec ability is kinda strange as I d think almost all of you asked to be the "best" as in purest healer there is and you still are (maybe some spells are broken etc but why is it so hard to see which spells are broken? I mean I dont read every thread here but any constructive thread is buried under a lot of these bs threads with people saying "class A is sooo cool we suck" hmmm k... so what now??</P> <P>Maybe make a list of spells that suck explain why they suck and how soe can make em not suck or something instead of posting all this noise.</P> <P>oh btw I forgot to say in my previous post not sure who said it that I was advocating equal healing before, well I didnt advocate equal healing I wouldve liked my class to be more dps than healer at first must say I love my class now but I chose my class to be something of a punisher from nature (was in class description: controls the fiercest forces of nature or something lol man at first I thought we would get pets or summon wolves/bears or change in animals with diff abilities that was 1 year ago btw, I chose my class to do dps and heal must say it didnt turn out the way I envisioned a fury were healers first now and do +add some dps Id have np tho if they would cut down my healing and boosted my dmg more, leaving the healing tree a bit but thats just cause I always play druids/wizards in rpgs I love doing dmg and nature stuff heh).</P> <P>Im happy with my class now yeah sure I am I can solo heal quite easily compared to before (in most circumstances) and do big number (but slow!) dmg love big orange numbers.</P> <P>Personally I wouldve liked it even better if we wouldve gone more offensively after lu13 but thats just me.</P> <P>Yesterday on a raid  (deserted mine in zek: big groups: a fury's speciality) magic buffed my int to max and with the purple (troubadour)buff (you know it and love it) and doing no healing I did 420 dps so that was my max raid buffed going all out I didnt outdmg the big boys in dmg and its not accurate to say furies can squeeze that out easily I was spamming my dmg spells (well spamming with a long recast isnt exactly spamming but ok) and got hit with the purple buff of glory and did that number and did 420 dps.</P> <P>That doesnt say that furies do 420 and templars do 70 its wrong and you know it, exaggarations dont help anyone so pls stick to some truth please.</P> <P>One thinhg I still dont understand is why arent you guys comparing yourself with inquisitors instead of comparing yourself with a druid/fury? <P>I at least know some inq's that are enjoying themselves what did soe do good with them and not with you guys, I mean you both are clerics?!</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:39 AM</span>

[Dalchar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Yes, it is wrong to ask to have dps just like a fury, you may not like it but you have 60% more armor choices out there.  That's the reason for your dps, not only that you're oriented defensively.   Not to say you don't need something to make you solo better as you shouldn't have to deal with as many interrupts as you do by any means.  But the fact is, this game orients dps partly by armor selections avaiable.  By restricting myself to leather & cloth I'm lucky to hit 260 WIS self buffed at 60.  I get agro--I'm rather squishy.  Therein lies a significant advantage while grouping --gearing yourself to however you'd like with as much int/power/procs/effects etc without a second thought and not always having to wait around for an armor drop that's relatively rare because of armor rrestrictions .  When you get agro on a big mob, you don't get knocked into next week and subsequently watch your group die cuz you got 3-4 stray hits/arts/nukes.  Unfortunately right now that same advantage makes soloing a huge pain in the butt. Like it or not, one of the biggest things that holds true in EQ2 is that you give up something to get another. Mages give up virtually all armor for dps and that is further altered (at least so it seems) by AOE or single target speciality. Scouts give up lots of utility instead of armor to get higher dps but not generally as high as a mage (as they can still wear up to chain), dps is further altered by defensive/offensive orientation. Fighters give up dps in favor of armor, but are oriented as such that the brawlers do more dps due to restrictions on gear and dps is altered on defensive/offensive orientation. Priests give up dps for utility and healing, and dps is oriented by armor type and defensive/offensive orientation. When I got my INT down to 10, my nuke hit for about 700-1000.  Cut it in half to make it look more like other priest's big nukes -- 350-500, and with the worst efficiency and greatest variance to boot as illustrated by this thread: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644.  Against single target... There's a 14% to 39% dps variance between minimum and maximum dps on both classes full burn not interrupted, and at 225 INT with adept 1s.  Furies on average on single target are 27% higher on dps than templars on full burn w/o including HO's.  All depending on whether or not it lands for full or minimum, assuming everything lands (furies can't debuff their resists).  Nor does this include templar's divine debuffs, nor does it include that elementals make up maybe 5% of the game tops and undead make up I'd estimate about 20-25% (just depends on where you are, stormhold, nek castle, half of varsoon's, over half of living tombs and silent city, prolly a quarter of stinking sands etc). Single target dps nukes/dots w/ adept1s w/ 225 INT: Fury dps: 150-204 Templar dps: 130 - 156 But I'm not saying templars shouldn't get a dps boost to help with soloing.  I think something needs to be done with the armor or classes so that you're not constantly interrupted when you do solo and probably a slight boost.  Maybe shortening nuke cast-times to 1s would make them more viable to you.    However, I can soundly say you shouldn't be able to nuke like a fury until you have to give up 60% of your armor choices and somehow out out of the defensive orientation. I'm thinking the bottom line though-- if dps is what you're wanting, templar isn't the class you're wanting.  They're entirely too oriented on group augmentation and healing that likely soloing will always be slow.  They can make groups shine like no other and often allow for more difficult encounters and provide a larger safety net.  But solo they're likely going to continue to be bottom of the barrell.  However, it also needs to be realized that most of the other priests aren't leaps and bounds ahead of templar in dps.  The sky isn't falling, furies don't do l337 massive dps.  A lot of what you see is taken well out of context or in some cases, people stacking the cards in a parse that doesn't tell you even half a story. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class="date_text">11-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:35 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class="date_text">11-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>

[Faithes]

......ROFL! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Templars do have a sense of humor =D.  /laugh <div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Takeo101 wrote: <p>Bah - percentage proc heals like GoC, which because of the "lucky socks" principle seems to work best on scouts, the Mark line, and Curate are not solid utility. If you are gonna compare apples to oranges - lets do this shall we?</p> <p>Do your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SoWs, DS, Slows, etc. have a <em>chance </em>to proc?</p> <p>Yeah - thats what I thought. They give us the edge, but even if you are a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] canny player, relying on those heals, like you would other utility like ds and slows would be suicide. Its apples and orages I say - they should drop the proc rate. <em>Thats</em> utility, not a crappy crap-shoot. You follow? For the purpose they serve, they are <em>not dependable.</em> As far as dps goes, we all know that the priests, especially templars need a boost. Come on - a 300pt DD at 51? What were they smoking? My pali can <em>proc</em>, like our "utility", two-thirds of that at 38. </p> <p>Thats two bits worth - to hell with two cents.</p> <p>Lates.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Debuffs always have a chance to be resisted. Additionally, as mob level increased beyond your healers - DPS, debuffs and other mob targetted abilities become increasingly more resisted.  Thus, buffs are inherently more useful, if all other things are equal. A resisted debuff is more detrimental than a GoC that didn't proc yet, in my books.  Additionally, most debuffs are melee based and give little help when the mob is a caster. Plus, as a Defiler, I have many spells that are based on procs, both debuffs or buffs - one main line that goes on the tank is a reverse proc that lowers attack speed and dps of mobs attacking him.  It used to be 5% proc but has been increased to 8% recently.  The reverse proc ward debuff functions much the same way.  They are still very powerful abilities that I would not go without. Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love my debuffs, but I disagree with your assessment.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 PM</span>

[Uinael_Guk]

I haven't been able to read through the entire thread, but wanted to pitch in as a frustrated templar with two issues. 1. I don't see the big deal about making clerics (temps / inqu's) the main healers of groups.  I'm not saying make it as lopsided as EQ1, but we *should* be the main healers, and we *should* be able to keep an entire group alive without a backup healer, which isn't very easy especially with the changes (i'll get to that in a min).   Players give up a bit to play a cleric.  I'm not sure on the druid or shaman list, but clerics don't get spells like sow, root, invisi, etc, and have some of the worst DPS in the game.  We're meant to heal and that is why many chose the class.   I don't mind shamans or druids being able to keep groups alive without clerics, but make it in their own ways like you do tanks.   Warriors are pretty much the beef.   They have a lot of HPs, heavy armor and can take a pounding.    A monk can MT for a group, but he does it in a different way.  He has fewer HPs and weaker armor, but has much higher AGI so is hit much less.   Pally's and SK's have a mix of armor + spells which allow them to tank for groups as well.   As a healer, I have no problem with any one of those classes as the MT because they're all good in their own way.   Why can't it be the same with healers?   Why is SOE so scared to give 'pure' healers more power in their strength?   Let Shamans and Druids keep groups alive in their own ways with a combo of heals + util spells like slows, regens, etc.     Keep clerics as the guys who keep groups with the only thing they really have, heals.   Just make the heals a little stronger than the other guys. 2. This is slightly OT, not really though.  This possibly goes for all healers, but definitely templars of the 30ish levels.  What is up with the lousy heal spells now?  I cancelled my account 3 months ago because I hated reactive spells, and on top of that the direct heals were amazingly weak.   Needless to say I was shocked when I came back, found out some spells were increased  (I selected restoration M2), but now nothing stacks!   It is actually harder to keep a group alive now despite a few stronger spells because I have my reactive spell, restoration and amelioration (oh, and group heal if I want to burn a ton of power and have a long cast time for another sliver of hope).  Restoration has a 12 second recast time if I remember correctly, so i'm out of luck if i'm trying to heal a MT against a lvl 40ish (i'm 37) mob that hits far harder than the reactive can keep up with, and I use my restoration.   I have a my dinky little amel spell which gives a sliver of life and hope until restoration hopefully pops, but if it gets down to that point the MT is usually going to die.    And so far, since returning, every time my group has had adds that attacked someone else in the group, it's basically 75% of the time someone dies.  Either the person who got aggro, or the MT becuase i'm trying to heal the other guy for a second.  Before the updates, I was able to keep the MT alive, and toss on mini heals / reactives on the wizzies or rangers who grab aggro while not skipping a beat with the MT and my bigger heals.   Now I pretty much have to make a choice when I see two health bars going down at once.   Like I said, I came back from a 3 month break, so hopefully i'm missing some spells (I also do use mark of princes, and the other reverse DS) but if that's the best we're going to be, basically 2 heals and a reactive, oh, and stupid utility spells to make us 'happy', I can see another break coming up.   I'd love to re-roll another class, but I dread the first 20 levels, especially the city quest / lvl 10 / lvl 20 quests. <div></div>

[Naithik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Uinael_Guk wrote:<BR>I haven't been able to read through the entire thread, but wanted to pitch in as a frustrated templar with two issues.<BR><BR>1. I don't see the big deal about making clerics (temps / inqu's) the main healers of groups.  I'm not saying make it as lopsided as EQ1, but we *should* be the main healers, and we *should* be able to keep an entire group alive without a backup healer, which isn't very easy especially with the changes (i'll get to that in a min).   Players give up a bit to play a cleric.  I'm not sure on the druid or shaman list, but clerics don't get spells like sow, root, invisi, etc, and have some of the worst DPS in the game.  We're meant to heal and that is why many chose the class.   <BR><BR>I don't mind shamans or druids being able to keep groups alive without clerics, but make it in their own ways like you do tanks.   Warriors are pretty much the beef.   They have a lot of HPs, heavy armor and can take a pounding.    A monk can MT for a group, but he does it in a different way.  He has fewer HPs and weaker armor, but has much higher AGI so is hit much less.   Pally's and SK's have a mix of armor + spells which allow them to tank for groups as well.   As a healer, I have no problem with any one of those classes as the MT because they're all good in their own way.   Why can't it be the same with healers?   Why is SOE so scared to give 'pure' healers more power in their strength?   Let Shamans and Druids keep groups alive in their own ways with a combo of heals + util spells like slows, regens, etc.     Keep clerics as the guys who keep groups with the only thing they really have, heals.   Just make the heals a little stronger than the other guys. <BR><BR>2. This is slightly OT, not really though.  This possibly goes for all healers, but definitely templars of the 30ish levels.  What is up with the lousy heal spells now?  I cancelled my account 3 months ago because I hated reactive spells, and on top of that the direct heals were amazingly weak.   Needless to say I was shocked when I came back, found out some spells were increased  (I selected restoration M2), but now nothing stacks!   It is actually harder to keep a group alive now despite a few stronger spells because I have my reactive spell, restoration and amelioration (oh, and group heal if I want to burn a ton of power and have a long cast time for another sliver of hope).  Restoration has a 12 second recast time if I remember correctly, so i'm out of luck if i'm trying to heal a MT against a lvl 40ish (i'm 37) mob that hits far harder than the reactive can keep up with, and I use my restoration.   I have a my dinky little amel spell which gives a sliver of life and hope until restoration hopefully pops, but if it gets down to that point the MT is usually going to die.   <BR><BR> And so far, since returning, every time my group has had adds that attacked someone else in the group, it's basically 75% of the time someone dies.  Either the person who got aggro, or the MT becuase i'm trying to heal the other guy for a second.  Before the updates, I was able to keep the MT alive, and toss on mini heals / reactives on the wizzies or rangers who grab aggro while not skipping a beat with the MT and my bigger heals.   Now I pretty much have to make a choice when I see two health bars going down at once.   Like I said, I came back from a 3 month break, so hopefully i'm missing some spells (I also do use mark of princes, and the other reverse DS) but if that's the best we're going to be, basically 2 heals and a reactive, oh, and stupid utility spells to make us 'happy', I can see another break coming up.   I'd love to re-roll another class, but I dread the first 20 levels, especially the city quest / lvl 10 / lvl 20 quests. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thing is, pre-revamp the game was ridiculously easy. you could solo yellow heroic, and having 5 heroic adds meant minimal challenge to a group. The revamp make the game more challenging and balanced (no more guardian only tanking, or warden/templar only healers) and thats a good thing. </P> <P>Now you suggest that healers keep their group alive in different ways, and thats what they do. cleric has reactive, druid has regen, shamans have ward. some have debuff, some have extra heals, some have extra dps.</P> <P>If you don't like reactive, well too bad but templar isnt a job for you, i suggest you reroll. What good does it do to keep a class based on something you don't like? The first 20 levels can be done in 1 day now, maybe 2. it's not that big of a deal. if you really wanna rush up, get powere leveled.</P>

[Takeo1]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff3366></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Bah - percentage proc heals like GoC, which because of the "lucky socks" principle seems to work best on scouts, the Mark line, and Curate are not solid utility. If you are gonna compare apples to oranges - lets do this shall we?</P> <P> </P> <P>Do your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SoWs, DS, Slows, etc. have a <EM>chance </EM>to proc?</P> <P> </P> <P>Yeah - thats what I thought. They give us the edge, but even if you are a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] canny player, relying on those heals, like you would other utility like ds and slows would be suicide. Its apples and orages I say - they should drop the proc rate. <EM>Thats</EM> utility, not a crappy crap-shoot. You follow? For the purpose they serve, they are <EM>not dependable.</EM> As far as dps goes, we all know that the priests, especially templars need a boost. Come on - a 300pt DD at 51? What were they smoking? My pali can <EM>proc</EM>, like our "utility", two-thirds of that at 38. </P> <P> </P> <P>Thats two bits worth - to hell with two cents.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Debuffs always have a chance to be resisted. <FONT color=#ff3366>Just like our "utility", nothing different there....</FONT><BR><BR>Additionally, as mob level increased beyond your healers - DPS, debuffs and other mob targetted abilities become increasingly more resisted.  Thus, buffs are inherently more useful, if all other things are equal. <FONT color=#ff3366>Umm...Curate is a debuff, and so is Mark...</FONT><BR><BR>A resisted debuff is more detrimental than a GoC that didn't proc yet, in my books.  Additionally, most debuffs are melee based and give little help when the mob is a caster. <FONT color=#ff3366>Is more detrimental why? Zero is zero isnt it? At least you can recast and IF it lands your have a 100% chance of effect. Yeah - okay most debuffs are melee based...so our advantage is...GoC <EM>may</EM> proc against a caster mob? Good lookin out.</FONT><BR><BR>Plus, as a Defiler, I have many spells that are based on procs, both debuffs or buffs - one main line that goes on the tank is a reverse proc that lowers attack speed and dps of mobs attacking him.  It used to be 5% proc but has been increased to 8% recently.  The reverse proc ward debuff functions much the same way.  They are still very powerful abilities that I would not go without. <FONT color=#ff3366>Your base utility is slow and -dps isnt it? Are those procs? And even if you have nothing but procs for ALL of your debuffs, except slow, you still are one greater than me. Is that balance? </FONT><BR><BR>Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love my debuffs, but I disagree with your assessment.<EM> </EM><FONT color=#ff3366>You are entitled. But the way it looks to me is the same. You have very few procs to concern yourself with, and your resist argument holds no water, nor does your melee argument. We are at a disadvantage with our proc "utility" and everybody but the devs seems to know it. I aint expecting a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing back. Hell will freeze over before the devs remove their heads from their [Removed for Content] on this one...but then again, I am used to it. Look - next time you play with a temp, if you can find one, ask them about their debuff lines, in other words, our "utility". Hell - they may even mention Sign, and Soothe. More than likely they look at those as...bull. And think that their proc heals are their "utility". If they dont - more power to them. If they do - they have joined the ranks of disappointed Templars the world over, whether they know it or not. </FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff3366>And btw: after that big response....I guess your slows, debuffs, and ds can only be resisted, like ours? But if they land they work? Or do they have a chance to proc? Yeah - thats what I thought. Apples and oranges.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3366></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3366>Lates</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3366></FONT> </P> <P> </P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Sokolov on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Faithes]

Hey devs, can I be the main healer as well? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>  I don't see the harm... <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naithik wrote: <p>Thing is, pre-revamp the game was ridiculously easy. you could solo yellow heroic, and having 5 heroic adds meant minimal challenge to a group. The revamp make the game more challenging and balanced (no more guardian only tanking, or warden/templar only healers) and thats a good thing. </p> <p>Now you suggest that healers keep their group alive in different ways, and thats what they do. cleric has reactive, druid has regen, shamans have ward. some have debuff, some have extra heals, some have extra dps.</p> <p>If you don't like reactive, well too bad but templar isnt a job for you, i suggest you reroll. What good does it do to keep a class based on something you don't like? The first 20 levels can be done in 1 day now, maybe 2. it's not that big of a deal. if you really wanna rush up, get powere leveled.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well then devs failed. The game is still easy. Some classes can still solo yellow heroics and having 5 heroic adds means only a slight more challenge to a group. True, it did make it 'more' challenging, but not by much. Our paladin still tanks just like pre-revamp, but for healers, now people still think they need templars and are upset because most templars want to play an alt. And I like reactives, in essence, they are just the same as wards and HoT's. What I dont like is the fact that I always need someone to hand me xp on a platter since I just cant get it alone.</span><div></div>

[Hacatta]

I agree with Tera, if all the priest classes should heal equally, then you don't need, Wardens, furys, Defilers and such. all you need is one class called Priest. Yes it should be that some classes heal better than others, some better Dps, and some better buffs, all with heals. As it is now everyone heals like a cleric, but the cleric has none of the dps of the other classes. No one class should have it all. If all the fighters had the same dps, then whats the point. Again all you would need is one class of fighter

[Elro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Terabethia wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#33ccff size=2>Great responses guys, I am glad to hear that people somewhat see things the way I do. As far as the ideas of what priests "really are in the real world", Gweniveth is 100% correct. I am well versed in my history and that of "natural lore", I was only speaking of the classic eq and the D&D models for which this game is based, as are most fantasy MMO's. But glad to see you know your history, I was waiting for that one!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff size=2>Now mind you, I wrote all of this while I should have actually been working, but I was having a discussion with a friend who plays a warden and ended up in an arguement, which, in the end I won. Now, I am not saying I am right based on winning this arguement, I just happen to have taken a debate class or two and can talk people into giving up! :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff><FONT size=2>I always felt that the other priest classes, our fellow druid and shamans, should be able to hold a group up if they need to. Do I feel like they needed a little boost? Absolutely. And they deserved it. But as usual, SoE took it too far, and over did them. They are now more powerful overall than the clerics, and that just is not right. A druid/shaman should be able to keep my group alive if I need to go afk, or if I am out of mana. In certain group situations (not fighting really hard ^^^'s), they should even be able to hold a group up by themselves. But again, they should not be just as effecient of a healer as a cleric. If you want to join a group to grind and kill the really hard stuff, you should require a cleric. If you want to raid the next big mob, you should require a couple of clerics. Otherwise, as ton's on the board have stated, what is the point of being one?</FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Georgia color=#33ccff><FONT color=#ff0000>I understand that SoE has said that all healers are to be balanced, but I just don't feel that they know what they are doing. They have said that they are going to make us all equal, but this is just not right. I guess that a lot of people at this point have just accepted that we are going to heal equally and are now asking for the same DPS and Utility as the others.</FONT> My problem is not so much that I want to be an uber healer or that I don't want utility. It is far more than that. I just ask, if you make us all equal, what makes each class "special" I played EQ1 for quite a while, and looked forward to this game for a long time before release. I played beta for this, and all along I knew I wanted to be either a druid or a cleric. I literally spent weeks deciding what I wanted to be. There was a difference in the class, and I had 1 chance to decide what path I wanted to take. Just before I finished my level 10 choice, I sat there for 20 minutes deciding which button to click on. So... if we are all equal, what is going to make someone new to the game say "Wow, I really want to be a Cleric/Druid/Shaman<SPAN class=453472622-08112005> over all else</SPAN>"? Because it just won't matter, and that just makes me sad.</FONT> :smileysad:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: fixing spelling errors! : 0 )</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Terabethia on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:25 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Terabethia on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:28 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Terabethia on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Feel the exact same way.  I dont want other utilities.  Chose a class for a reason.  You want to put all healers in the same situation here ya go then SoE.   Remove the DoT's / DD's from the druids.  Tell them for starters there days of gradiose soloing crap is over.  Give them a water utility instead and tell them to shove it up there cornhole and welcome to beeing a healer.  Take the slows from the Shams with the STR and STA debuffs, and give them some water abilities as well.  God knows we need thoose.  Give everyone the ability to debuff Devine and AC.... There, Now you have made a level table.... If you for one second want to tell me SoE that this is the level, then great.  Otherwise, boost us back up or just tell us it aint going to happen and watch more subscriptions fall.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>On a side note, to be brutally honest, Im gonna let go here..... and as my guild mates know when I let go I Dont hold back [Removed for Content].  Here is the thing.  Lets take any sequel here.  I Got it!  Lets start with movies.  Back to the future, perfect example.  In Back the future 2, it follows the story line and offers the same as before.  Why sequels are normally seen just because someone seen the 1st and enjoyed it.  I will personally say for thoose that have played the game to 60 ( I Can speak for a large ammount of my guild ) are generally disappointed.  This comes from a large range of things.  From Raid quest zones, Artwork ( or lack there of ), TIME CONSUMING / REWARDING QUESTS ( Where are quest like the Thurgardin Ring / Thurgardin Shawl, PoF Tradeskillers Earing ), No game play at 60 ( again we stop and wait for you to make additional content / levels where is the AA ).</P> <P> </P> <P>Take a few lessons from why EQ1 was sucessful.  It worked for both the CASUAL gamer and HARDCORE player.  See, this is what I dont understand.  You are hailing to the casual gamer.  Of course, this is where the money comes from.  But lets take a step back here.  Why is EQ1 Still the best selling MMORPG to date.  Because its been around the longest?  Nope.  Because it was hard and required time.  Lets be all serious here.  That was put together right, it had every bit of high content designed in the game and kept the standards high.  It didnt dumb everything down.  Where is the risk Versus reward.  Any nub can zone into any zone at any time ( Unless it requires access quests, oh wait thats gone too&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Hell we invite lowbie friends into MoTM.  Better yet, we had a 30 Swash in Fountain of life just incase another swash BP dropped, rofl.  In EQ1 to walk into Veeshans Peak you had to put on a serious sack of nutz after some serious work ( Im talking mid Kunark days ).  You screw up in here, that aint candyland.  There is no get out of Jail free card.  Its your corpse in there, you cant get back in.  You have made this game soo trivial to the point of candyland that most have come to the point that this game is casual and its all that will ever be is casual.  Guess what happens to your hard core players.  They leave.  Along with that goes your testing for your half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] completed content.  But see here is the thing.  If you make a game hardcore, with a shorter learning curve and keep the challange alive with it, you will be sucessful.  Its like trying to teach a dog a trick.  IF you reward him for beeing stupid, hes gonna be chasing parked cars for a living.  And this is what I see that SoE has done.  They have taken a game that required thought, teamwork, skill, knowledge and made an empty promise of a game.  The reason why people got hooked on Everquest 1 was the simple fact it was not easy.  It ws a challange.  Epic meant EPIC not 15 minutes of zoning into a cave with the same mobs that are always up, sending in wave after wave of morns with sticks to kill it thats always ready to kill when ever you want.  Epic was back in the days of the Cleric epic 1.0 was in Sol Eye A & B and you had to camp Zordak Ragefire after Nagafen was killed.  You had to have friends.  Your name meant something besides just /who all templar on a list.    Epic was Zones such as Planes of Time that required hours of Work, Trial and Error, Knowledge, and teamwork to accomplish.  Not hey, Whats in here.  Ooooohhh...Shiny..... No.. Hell No, You dont even get to see it.  Get back to the content and PROGRESS, Ya you heard me, PROGRESS through it like the other people before you.  Choose any path ya want, but if you want to see this, here is the path.  No Chance card to take a ride on the reading railroad.  Hell no,   Take the path that offers challange, Not just another [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] quest of killing single up mobs. </P> <P>You have no epic quests / Mobs.  Why?  To hail to the casual gamer.  If there is, aint nothing like EQ1.  You ask me my most memorible quest in Eq2.  Ya, the Peacock quest series.  Why?  Because it was hard.  Hell No, Its Because I think I need my damm optritian to give me some tri focals after looking for that damm Tape ribbon around the lake for hours.  You ask me about Eq1.  How about the rathe council.  Ya man, 3 hour raid.  Off tanks.  Heck we spent most of sunday on it trying to figure it out.  We did ok, but we learned alot.  We will be back next week.   So lets see here.  Lets compare.  Picking up crap around a lake, or rathe... Rathe... But again, you want ALL gamers to experience the high end game.  Nobodys to  get out of reach.  God forbid that someone actually is ahead of someone else.  God forbit that you cant group with a friend whos casual and your hardcore.  Ya took care of that issue, so whats the problem now.   Imo, the way you are thinking is sorta like communism... Dont worry my brother whats good for the calf is good for the heard.  Soon enough it will be to the point of where you grab the hammer of dragon slaying off the dock bell in your 1st zone to antonica, kill the dragon and SoE will ask you for your credit card for the next expansion.  Hey your only level 11, itll happen.</P> <P>You have no distinguishing class.  Why?  Again, to hail to the casual gamer.  Nobody wants to play a game for 6 months and have you decide because of your lack of testing and forsight to rework everything.  Your wanting to distinquish every class was a good idea, but has totally back fired on you because you have sulked away from a tried and tried model of DnD.  Im not a DnD fanatic, but they got there stuff together.  Who else crunches #'s until midnight in there mothers bhasement at the age of 35.  DnD people.  They found the balance on things.  Lets take a few steps back.  When you tried to intergrate everything in EQ1 as far as Hybrids, you had everyone in a uproar even with the label Extremely Difficult next to the class.  People did learn, made em anyways.  What did they get, 70 % of each classes ability, but not great at any one thing except 2 innitiate abilities.  You have done the same here, except put everyone on par and made everyone a hybrid with crossing skill lines.  Unbalanced classes beyond belif in the healing tiers.  Screwed your other guardian class thats suppose to tbe the best at tanking when the game came out so that a paladin or SK can out tank them, and put to rest my thoughts that you may get this right.  Before ya start screwing up every dam class, take a look at balance, take a look at DnD.  You may seriously learn something and why the model of EQ1 was sucessful.  Because people were DIFFRENT.  This causes social interaction, not lack of as you have learned.  Too many of 1 thing spoils the broth, and congradulations on opening the flood gates for re rolls because your idiotic decisions.</P> <P>Who is this posting again, </P> <P>Ah yes , its Elrohn the [Removed for Content] of Templar on Nektulous that is still waiting for a Beta Invite to Vanguard.  Where there will be challange, and difficulty and one less templar on Nektulous.</P> <P>Why screw with something that aint broken?  Ask SoE, its to make more money rather than make a superior product to lure cusomters.</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG src="http://eq2.ataxiareign.com/eq2/datas/users/16-elrohnsig2.jpg"></P><p>Message Edited by Elrohn on <span class=date_text>12-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 PM</span>