We are our own worst enemy

[Kendricke]

<DIV><FONT size=1>I began to respond to Antryg in another discussion, and realized my post had taken on a life of it's own.  Therefore, this new thread:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Kendricke wrote:  In another month or so when the tweaks and changes actually go in to finally balance the classes a bit more, I believe we'll suddenly see many of those "retired" Templars back here...likely even patting themselves on the back for "causing" the changes.</FONT><BR><BR>Absolutely.  Threadbare patronising aside, This forum is one of the 2 avenues for getting problems addressed.<BR>So a big thanks will be owed to those who posted, despite the abuse and flames from the 'we are fine' brigade.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's post hoc reasoning there.  Just because I shouted at the rain to stop for 2 hours and then it stopped does not mean that I caused the rain to stop.   (It's also ironic you choose to claim a group is using "flames" when you label them in a derogatory manner in the same breath.)</P> <P>When I went to the Community Summit in June, I asked in utter confusion how I'd been chosen from among thousands and thousands of players to have my opinions heard.  I truly had no idea why I was chosen to attend the first Summit.  I didn't even think the developers really knew who I was.  Yet, there I was on that first night, sharing drinks and rubbing elbows not only with the developers, but with some of the most well known Everquest 2 "celebrities" from throughout the various forums and fansites.</P> <P>In answer to my question, I was informed that those chosen had a slightly higher "noise to signal" ratio.   It's not that the rest of the community doesn't care or that they don't come up with brilliant ideas.  It's that those of us chosen apparantly seemed to avoid the personal mudslinging more often and stuck to the facts of the issues.  </P> <P>I don't argue that we should stick to the facts just because I personally like that style of argument.  I bring it up because I was informed...multiple times...by multiple developers...that it's the best way to get noticed.  Over 10,000 new posts are made every single day on these forums.  It spikes up to 50,000 after important patches or releases.  How in the world do the developers find the posts they're supposed to be looking at in all that jumble?  Think about that.</P> <P>While many of us are being tagged the "we are fine brigade", we're using "/feedback" and other methods (all available to everyone here) to put our points across.  Some here claim to have another forum and have private messaged Raijinn.  I truly hope then that any changes they desire are put forward in a positive way.  If that's the method they've decided works for them, then I'm all for it.  Perhaps we'll even see one or more of them at a Summit someday.  </P> <P>In the meantime, those of us who have attended Summits and a few others have been in contact with each other as well.  Why?  Because we have something in common.  It's a bond or thread that we can call upon to gap playstyle, age, or cultural differences.  Tamat...Radar-X...Ethec...are all very, very well versed in the Templar class.  I can tell you that I'm lucky to be in their company in the forums we frequent, and that some of the ideas we've come up with (most of which are mentioned on these forums) are being submitted as well.  I should hope EVERY Templar is using "/feedback" at the least, as that's the most direct way to make sure you're seen by the development team.  I know that at that Summit I attended, virtually every developer I spoke with recognized me based on the sheer number of Feedback reports I've submitted over the past year regarding Guilds, Guild functionality, and Templars.</P> <P>I'm proud of the work I've put in so far.  I'm proud of the changes I've put forward that somehow made their way into the game in some fashion - whether or not I had any real contribution toward such issues in the first place.</P> <P>What I will say is that it's easy to be vocal and shout and then take all the glory after the fact.  What's not so easy is to try to maintain a level-headed approach, stick to the facts of the matter, and continue to silently watch the changes come to pass.  I've known many a Templar who almost never posts on these forums who have been working quite hard on the issues our class faces...and yes, there are issues.  </P> <P>However, a great deal of the problems facing our class are not necessarily the same problems being raised on these forums.  As a community, we tend to manufacture facts and use hyperbole and attempt to find worst case scenario slippery slopes to exaggerate those issues we each individually find are problems for our individual playstyles.  In a way, we are our own worst enemy here.  </P> <P>What I, and others of the "we are fine brigade" (the label itself is a misleading hyperbole) have advocated is that the personal attacks cease (there's no good to come from attacking other members of the community), that facts be used in place of conjecture (a very, very common issue here), and that issues be raised in a civil, truthful manner.   </P> <P>Points to consider:  </P> <UL> <LI>By all means, continue to debate and dissent...while remembering to target issues, not individuals.</LI> <LI>We're all on the same side here - to make a better Templar.  The difference is in how we each perceive "better".</LI> <LI>None of us "represents" the Templar Community - not myself or Radar-X.  Not Kaylena, Gchang, or Caethre. </LI> <LI>Player created statisics are largely meaningless when referring to the playerbase (99% of players are this way or that way), since none of us has access to the numbers and the developers do.</LI> <LI>Discussions based around DPS or HPS need to have more factual basis than arguments which do not revolve around the terms.</LI> <LI>How we "feel" is important.  Just don't present opinions as facts and expect it to be accepted as such.</LI></UL> <P>In short, we need to learn to work together on the issues rather than working toward making this a us vs. us confrontational dynamic.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 AM</span>

[Antryg Mistrose]

I'd just like to point out that the patronising stuff in yellow, is Kendricke quoting himself. Not me. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR>I'd just like to point out that the patronising stuff in yellow, is Kendricke quoting himself. Not me.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Indeed.  I'll edit your quote to add that in.

[Suite]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME  BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 PM</span>

[Naithik]

<P>And for that post, and many others, I would like to thank you kendricke.</P> <P>You are one of the templars I respect, for talking about issues without trying to start a whine fest, flame fest, or nerf the fury fest <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I just wish all templars could come together, point out which spells need attention, how, and why, and then inform the devs so a fix, if one is needed, can be made. I am not a templar, but I come here sometimes to read a few threads. And what I see, is a lot of people flaming each other, saying their class is crappy, but no one saying exactly how or why.</P> <P>I don't really mind if a couple of templars decide to reroll as furies (although that may cause an overflow of furies, then again I am not one, so that's not my problem) but what really gets me, is that instead of trying to get templars fixed, you throw mud at each others, and to other classes. Templars ARE needed in raids, you won't go anywhere with 3 furies in MT group. I play regularly with templars, sure i don't count on them for dps, but they can heal fine. ANd remember, a good player makes heck of a difference.</P> <P>Now before 300 enraged templars try to kill me, just try to focus, go open a new thread, give it a non whiny title, make a list of the spells that need to be worked on, why, and how you would fix them. I'm sure your prayers will be heard.</P> <P> </P> <P>edit geez i can't stop making typos -.-</P> <P>Message Edited by Naithik on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:14 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Naithik on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[Elend]

I'd first like to say that if this thread is an attempt to glorify yourself, you should take it elsewhere, because i am sure that i am not the only one that does not care. Everyone else that uses this forum pays just as much as you to use them, so if there is something you do no agree with, debate it... but do not argue someone into submission (which is what it really feels like you guys do). If i did not know any better, i would say that yourself and the others in the "We are fine bridage" belong to some 'random-religous' group that forces its beleif on everyone and everything that breathes. With regard to your comment on constructive discussion.... you cannot tell me that people like Radar-x encourage such an atmosphere. I am not saying anyone here is perfect in this regard, but there are some insigators(sp?). I am extremely happy for you that you got to go to a summit to voice your opinions, I for one would love to have said opportunity, but really that should be enough for you. You shouldnt need to come here and do it all over again meanwhile defame everyone elses opinion, especially if you think templars are, for the most part, fine. I for one really think that the forums should be a place for people to talk about their problems, the game, strategies. Not a place where people pull their hair out because of a handful of people that think they are all high and mighty and are not wrong about anything they say. If you are so happy with the /feedback feature, then leave it at that, there is no need to come here and tell everyone else how to go about doing it. /rant off I do not mean for this post to be a flame, but i think it needed to be said. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Elendae wrote:<BR>I'd first like to say that if this thread is an attempt to glorify yourself, you should take it elsewhere, because i am sure that i am not the only one that does not care. Everyone else that uses this forum pays just as much as you to use them, so if there is something you do no agree with, debate it... but do not argue someone into submission (which is what it really feels like you guys do). If i did not know any better, i would say that yourself and the others in the "We are fine bridage" belong to some 'random-religous' group that forces its beleif on everyone and everything that breathes.<BR><BR>With regard to your comment on constructive discussion.... you cannot tell me that people like Radar-x encourage such an atmosphere. I am not saying anyone here is perfect in this regard, but there are some insigators(sp?).<BR><BR>I am extremely happy for you that you got to go to a summit to voice your opinions, I for one would love to have said opportunity, but really that should be enough for you. You shouldnt need to come here and do it all over again meanwhile defame everyone elses opinion, especially if you think templars are, for the most part, fine.<BR><BR>I for one really think that the forums should be a place for people to talk about their problems, the game, strategies. Not a place where people pull their hair out because of a handful of people that think they are all high and mighty and are not wrong about anything they say. If you are so happy with the /feedback feature, then leave it at that, there is no need to come here and tell everyone else how to go about doing it.<BR><BR>/rant off<BR><BR>I do not mean for this post to be a flame, but i think it needed to be said.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I appreciate that you have an opinion of me that is less than positive.  I can equally appreciate that you may feel negatively toward me personally.  It's certainly your right to hold such an opinion, and frankly it's one I won't attempt to defend against.  Thanks for taking the time to respond, though.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Takeo1]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>I admitted that I wasn't following my own advice regarding Glory of Combat.  I was able to start improving my own play once I recognized that personal fault and worked to better my own tactics.  I appreciate you bringing it up in the last several posts you've made regarding me.</P> <P>As far as my use of harmony in Harclave's, it does not blur memory, nor have I ever claimed it has.  It DOES however have an AE pacify element attached, and when I'm rushing the entrance torches to get the boxes stacked, sometimes that little extra pacify is all I need.  I've actually worked it into a consistent strategy I get too close to something I've previously soothed (which happens sometimes, though no always).  </P> <P>In addition, I make sure that my observations are listed as just that, and that my opinions are presented as just that.  I have no issues with opinions or observations, provided they are discussed as just that, and not used entirely unto themselves as factual gospel.  Anecdotal observation is still important and should be included...but should not be confused with empirical fact.  That has been my point all along.  </P> <P>I'd be happy to post several instances where I've stated this in various forms if you require verification...even going back a year or more.</P> <P> </P>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>Hey you want to take that "Lucky Socks" thing serious, you go right ahead, I got nominated for "Hotlips". I dont take myself that serious, do you?</P> <P> </P> <P>Anywho - still to my knowledge Harmony has zero pac effect, that was the whole dealio behind my comment about mem-blur. It lowers aggro - you mileage apparently varies. In getting aggro in any instance zone, the use of Harmony has had zero benefit for me, and in fact, on non-aggro mobs, it caused aggro...but maybe that pac effect is a change I am unaware of and IF thats the case - its all good, and I stand corrected. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now I never said you didnt list your opinions as such - I said that you did just that...used your opinion and observation to counter observation and opinion, WHILE you asked for hard data. You can phrase it however you like - butthe end result is the same. As far as observation goes, versus your "empirical fact", I can twist numbers into a knot, and I am betting you can too. Hell - I have seen people twist numbers into square-knots, monkey-paws, and New-Englands, and not even realize they were doing it. It is very hard for them to stop the sun from rising though isnt it? Come on - you know this stuff - if you are going to be Hume, be Hume, not Kant-Hume. Thats a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard sell.</P> <P> </P> <P>And you dont have to reference anything for me - anything more that I do for you. I know what you are talking about...and it is the crux of my comments. If you argue WITH observation and opinion, how can you ASK for hard data? Again - come on, you know what I talking about here, lets not get distracted with " I can quote a billion posts where I said such and such - see? "</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh - and I thought "Lucky Socks"was a decent nickname. Of course, in my opinion, "Hot-lips" is better.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> If you argue WITH observation and opinion, how can you ASK for hard data?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I ask for hard data from those who provide opinions as factual proof.  I counter those opinions either with direct facts, or with countered opinions or observations.  I do not require someone who states "seems to me" or "as I saw it" with requests for hard numbers.  I request such things of those who say "<EM>Furies solo four times faster than I do</EM>" and "<EM>it takes me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52</EM>".  ...and yes, I have provided numbers and offered up logs on several occasions. </P> <P>Oddly enough, I'm one of the few Templars on these forums at all on either side of the discussion that has offered up parses or logs at all.  I do request others to try the same however, because I'm only one person after all.  For those who do not want me "representing" the only side of the argument, I'd continue to challenge them to provide some manner of counter parse to show me otherwise.</P> <P>I've tried recommending parsing programs.  I've tried posting quotes from developers where they suggest parsing programs.  I've tried linking to posts where developers have stated they are looking for facts on this or that.  I've tried to directly relate that I've personally heard many different developers state with their own lips that they wish more people on the forums would avoid personal attacks and stick to the issues.  I've tried pointing out that name-calling, mud-slinging, and personal attacks are directly against the rules of conduct here. </P> <P>I do believe that there are issues with the Templar class.  I believe those issues are muddied in the constant attacks and <EM>ad hominem</EM>s being bandied about on these forums.  This is not the "<EM>I don't like Kendricke for this reason</EM>" forum...but the "<EM>Templar Discussion forum</EM>". </P> <P>By pointing out my personal flaws, ask yourself if you're contributing to the solution or the problem...from a developer's point of view.  Put yourself in their shoes for a minute, and ask yourself what you, as a developer, gain out of the attack posts made here.  I can tell you what I've heard with my own ears on that one.  You can choose to believe that or not.</P> <P>The choice, as always, is up to each of us.  Are we attacking the issue...or each other?  Are we part of the solution...or part of the problem?</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Anywho - still to my knowledge Harmony has zero pac effect, that was the whole dealio behind my comment about mem-blur. It lowers aggro - you mileage apparently varies. In getting aggro in any instance zone, the use of Harmony has had zero benefit for me, and in fact, on non-aggro mobs, it caused aggro...but maybe that pac effect is a change I am unaware of and IF thats the case - its all good, and I stand corrected. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now I never said you didnt list your opinions as such - I said that you did just that...used your opinion and observation to counter observation and opinion, WHILE you asked for hard data. You can phrase it however you like - butthe end result is the same. As far as observation goes, versus your "empirical fact", I can twist numbers into a knot, and I am betting you can too. Hell - I have seen people twist numbers into square-knots, monkey-paws, and New-Englands, and not even realize they were doing it. It is very hard for them to stop the sun from rising though isnt it? Come on - you know this stuff - if you are going to be Hume, be Hume, not Kant-Hume. Thats a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard sell.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Harmony has a short duration pacify effect.  Basically, if you are being beaten on, you cast harmony and even if you don't lose aggro, they stop hitting you for a few seconds.  The spell will attract attention from non-hostile wanderers, however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care much for Hume.  I prefer to pretend that skeptics don't exist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alephin</DIV>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> If you argue WITH observation and opinion, how can you ASK for hard data?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I ask for hard data from those who provide opinions as factual proof.  I counter those opinions either with direct facts, or with countered opinions or observations.  I do not require someone who states "seems to me" or "as I saw it" with requests for hard numbers.  I request such things of those who say "<EM>Furies solo four times faster than I do</EM>" and "<EM>it takes me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52</EM>".  ...and yes, I have provided numbers and offered up logs on several occasions. <FONT color=#ff3333>Okay - I will give you that you have offered up numbers and logs on several occasions. My arguement still holds - what good are the numbers? I can twist them easily by casting more quickly or more slowly...but the observations hold water. When they say "it took me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52" that is their observation. It holds just as much water as your numbers. Why the disparity? Why the need to support it with numbers? Are they lying? Is their observation skewed, all of the people with that complaint? What is the more simple explaination?</FONT></P> <P>Oddly enough, I'm one of the few Templars on these forums at all on either side of the discussion that has offered up parses or logs at all.  I do request others to try the same however, because I'm only one person after all.  For those who do not want me "representing" the only side of the argument, I'd continue to challenge them to provide some manner of counter parse to show me otherwise. <FONT color=#ff3333>The parses dont hold any more water than the observations do, and I am guessing that most people here know a little something about statistical analysis. In my opinion, as I hinted at earlier, the parses hold less water than a dixie-cup when compared to bon-fide eyes-on observation from an honest and reliable source. Now I am not "representing" the "other-side". I thought I was calling the OP on his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], like I would expect the people on this board to do if I was in the wrong - so we could "keep it real" boyo. But be prepared for folks to read your posts as you present them...I do, and sometimes it bites me on the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. </FONT></P> <P>I've tried recommending parsing programs.  I've tried posting quotes from developers where they suggest parsing programs.  I've tried linking to posts where developers have stated they are looking for facts on this or that.  I've tried to directly relate that I've personally heard many different developers state with their own lips that they wish more people on the forums would avoid personal attacks and stick to the issues.  I've tried pointing out that name-calling, mud-slinging, and personal attacks are directly against the rules of conduct here. <FONT color=#ff3333>Okay - recommend parsing programs. So what? Your opinion holds no more validity than any other here. You know this - and besides, most people may feel that their observations about a game should be enough. Hell - maybe they would rather watch MASH then load a parsing program, though that wouldnt be Radar...You link posts, good. You relate what you have heard, good. And you have taken the higher ground, good. So what? Their observations are what they know. It is what you know, isnt it? Hell - you cant even tell what the parses read without first observing the results. Oh - and last I checked, two adults having a honest discussion like the two of us wasnt mudslinging or personal attacks.</FONT></P> <P>I do believe that there are issues with the Templar class.  I believe those issues are muddied in the constant attacks and <EM>ad hominem</EM>s being bandied about on these forums.  This is not the "<EM>I don't like Kendricke for this reason</EM>" forum...but the "<EM>Templar Discussion forum</EM>". <FONT color=#ff3333>So does this mean you dont like "Lucky Socks?" Look - I dont dislike you, actually I am sorta apathetic, while mildly entertained. You are intelliegnt enough to banter,  or argue, so thats enough for me. I know the Forum Title, and its all good. As I have said, in several posts, maybe if we all agreed on what passed for fact versus opinion it might be a smoother ride. Who knows? Maybe a Dev will post to this saying " gimme the parses, I want parses. Your observations only hold water when I see numbers."</FONT></P> <P>By pointing out my personal flaws, ask yourself if you're contributing to the solution or the problem...from a developer's point of view.  Put yourself in their shoes for a minute, and ask yourself what you, as a developer, gain out of the attack posts made here.  I can tell you what I've heard with my own ears on that one.  You can choose to believe that or not. <FONT color=#ff3333>If I am pointing out personal flaws in posts, I am not pointing out character flaws. We all make mistakes. You character issues are yours and none of my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] business. Personal posting flaws may be misrepresentaion, as I believe the Harmony issue is...and so forth. I would expect the same. It keeps the community honest.</FONT></P> <P>The choice, as always, is up to each of us.  Are we attacking the issue...or each other?  Are we part of the solution...or part of the problem?<FONT color=#ff3333>Are we attacking the issue...or each other? </FONT><FONT color=#ff3333> Both - thats what makes a good arguement. You can attack a poster without being personal. I havent called you a single name in any of my posts...well okay "Lucky Socks", but that was in good humour. Am I part of the problem or part of the solution? Both again. I want the game that I want, based on my own observations. It just so happens that my observations seem to be the observations of many of the other posters on this board. /shrug</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Like I said its all good. I guess thats why we always say we are all entitled to our opinions. You are too. Enjoy.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alephin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Anywho - still to my knowledge Harmony has zero pac effect, that was the whole dealio behind my comment about mem-blur. It lowers aggro - you mileage apparently varies. In getting aggro in any instance zone, the use of Harmony has had zero benefit for me, and in fact, on non-aggro mobs, it caused aggro...but maybe that pac effect is a change I am unaware of and IF thats the case - its all good, and I stand corrected. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now I never said you didnt list your opinions as such - I said that you did just that...used your opinion and observation to counter observation and opinion, WHILE you asked for hard data. You can phrase it however you like - butthe end result is the same. As far as observation goes, versus your "empirical fact", I can twist numbers into a knot, and I am betting you can too. Hell - I have seen people twist numbers into square-knots, monkey-paws, and New-Englands, and not even realize they were doing it. It is very hard for them to stop the sun from rising though isnt it? Come on - you know this stuff - if you are going to be Hume, be Hume, not Kant-Hume. Thats a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard sell.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Harmony has a short duration pacify effect.  Basically, if you are being beaten on, you cast harmony and even if you don't lose aggro, they stop hitting you for a few seconds.  The spell will attract attention from non-hostile wanderers, however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care much for Hume.  I prefer to pretend that skeptics don't exist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alephin</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Okay - I understood that to be a short term stun/mez like the Sign line. At least thats how it worked for me. My understanding of pacify if a non-aggro aggro-range reducer ( read SSoQ : Silent Song of Quellious Bard EQ1; reduce frenzy radius/reduce aggro radius ). </P> <P> </P> <P>Oh - empiricist please - not skeptic....lol.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[CasieStarfi]

<P>"We are our own worst enemies?"   Kendricke, you make it sound like we are bare fist brawling in here!  As if every other post is a flaming inferno.  heh  =p</P> <P>In my opinion people that play Templars do so because they are passionate about the class.  There are easier classes to play, but many of us are devoted Templars and wouldn't be happy playing anything else.  So of course we post a lot about things we care about...  And sometimes it can get a little heated!  But I think in general we do alright making our issues and concerns known.  </P> <P>But if you want to start a /hug thread, thats cool.  Ditch the 5 paragraphs about how you got to, omg "<EM>share drinks and rub elbows not only with the developers, but with some of the most well known Everquest 2 "celebrities",</EM>  and just go straight for the hugging!</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CasieStarfish wrote:<BR> <P>But if you want to start a /hug thread, thats cool.  Ditch the 5 paragraphs about how you got to, omg "<EM>share drinks and rub elbows not only with the developers, but with some of the most well known Everquest 2 "celebrities",</EM>  and just go straight for the hugging!<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If that were the point I was making, then certainly I'd have done so.  As it is, I was attempting to point out that developers have stated why some ideas get heard and others do not.  Take the advice or not.  It's up to you.</P> <P>In any respect, thanks for sharing your opinion on the subject.  I'm sorry if you felt my point was not valid.</P> <P> </P>

[CasieStarfi]

<DIV>I just think you are over reacting.  =p  I think we do fine.  The suggestion to /feedback more is cool, but I read that they are waaay backed up and are actually hiring people to sift through the tons of feedbacks they just can't handle.   Really, I think we express our concerns and issues perfectly well.  What soe decides to focus thier resources on... we have very little control over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But /hug anyway!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CasieStarfish wrote:<BR> <DIV>What soe decides to focus thier resources on... we have very little control over.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To a certain extent, I agree with you.  We can't control where SOE project management and production focuses their efforts.  However, I believe we can certainly exert influence.</DIV>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>As far as my use of harmony in Harclave's, it does not blur memory, nor have I ever claimed it has.  It DOES however have an AE pacify element attached, and when I'm rushing the entrance torches to get the boxes stacked, sometimes that little extra pacify is all I need.  I've actually worked it into a consistent strategy I get too close to something I've previously soothed (which happens sometimes, though no always).  </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dont make it so difficult Ken just grab an inviso Totem and the last thing you need to worry about is aggro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . On the mid level of Harclave I only need 1 weapon and  1 Healing spell  to conquer the entire dungeon . Anything you add from those 3 essentials only makes it slightly quicker :smileyhappy:<BR> <p>Message Edited by BenEmma on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[Wossname]

For the more cynical of mind, I offer the following observation of human nature: given a choice, people will invite to gatherings people who are on the same wavelength and hold similar opinions. It is more pleasant to deal with someone who says: "You are almost right, here is how I think you could improve" than someone who says: "You are wrong, here is how I think you could do better." Devs have had to face up to the displeasure of the players before. What amounts to practically rewriting the combat engine from scratch is evidence of this. Having put that kind of effort in, I know I would very much want to avoid being told it wasn't good. That's just me though and I acknowledge I would be sorely tempted not to invite people who strongly disagreed with me to a summit. Kendricke, you have always been reasonable in the posts I have read even though I disagree with your position that "Templars are fine." The people who say "Templars are *not* fine" do have a greater tendency to get agitated and post in unproductive ways. I attribute that to the fact they are unhappy and stressed about the adverse situation they perceive. Human nature again. I won't defend it as productive because it isn't. My observation from playing the solo/small grouping game since not long after release is that Templars are now a horrible pain to solo. They weren't before the combat changes. They were slow because priests should not be damage machines, IMO at least, but they were viable. Since the combat update I refuse to solo my Templar, it is too much pain for trivial gain. I now use 80%+ of my total power to solo a single mob near my level (44). I'm not using tat for spells, I have almost all Adept1 spells and some Adept3's. Ironically, my nukes have more Master spells than my heals (ignoring the n x 10 + 4 Master2's). I have re-read all my spell descriptions and have tried to use them appropriately. I am not pleased about the very negative effect on my ability to solo. I see that other priest classes have been brought into line regarding healing. Great! I am very pleased for them, Templars were out of balance with the other classes before. However I am not pleased that my healing advantage has been taken away without redressing the balance on the DPS side. I am now a decent but not exceptional healer but I have pitiful, power hungry DPS. Other priests do not appear to have this problem. This is my observation, no numbers, just opinion. My Templar is now not fun to solo. I play for fun, so no fun and I start thinking about voting with my wallet. I stay because grouping with my regular group of friends is still fun, but that is the only reason. If I had only pickup groups to look forward to I would have quit months ago. regards Wossname <div></div>

[stargazer5678]

<div></div> 2 things I want to point out. 1.  Numbers are better than observations. 2. There is nothing wrong with the OP's tone. 1.  Takeo01 said <font color="#ff3333">Okay - I will give you that you have offered up numbers and logs on several occasions. My arguement still holds - what good are the numbers? I can twist them easily by casting more quickly or more slowly...but the observations hold water. When they say "it took me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52" that is their observation. It holds just as much water as your numbers. Why the disparity? Why the need to support it with numbers? Are they lying? Is their observation skewed, all of the people with that complaint? What is the more simple explaination?<font color="#ffffff"> Let's consider how people see the red color. Most people OBSERVE it as the same color. Yet some percantage see it as a different color, they are color blind (daltonism). However, if we analyze the color using physics and find out the light wave frequency we will make no mistake. It's called a SCIENTIFIC METHOD. In this particular case this is THE ONLY WAY to prove a color blind person that the color is red, observations on the other hand will only prove that there are 2 (or more) different opinions. The method can be applied to the game as well. The truth is that numbers are more objective than observations because they are based on the scientific method. Also let's further consider the </font></font><font color="#ff3333">"it took me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52"<font color="#ffffff"> case. Well, if we have the log we can see exactly how the encounter was progressing. So, if there was damage done to the player during minutes 2 and 3, but no damage to the NPC was made we can ask ourselfs why? May be the player caught an interesting commercial on TV... at least we CAN notice unusual behavior - something the observational statement fails to deliver. And also, yes, lies are possible, intentional or not. One can say that you can fabricate the numbers. Yes, you can, but it's harder to do and requires more work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2. I have read many posts here and on the guild thread. I think Kendricke is one of the most analytical and selfless people that post here. This combination is rare. I don't see his OP as "glorification of himself". But let's for a second assume that he did indeed intend to let people know about the level of his involvment. Does it make his post invalid and incorrect? PS I totally support Kendricke's suggestion to be constructive and objective, so that it's easier for developers to help templars. </font></font><font color="#ff3333"><font color="#ffffff"> Yastreb, Fury </font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by stargazer5678 on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:48 PM</span>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stargazer5678 wrote:<BR> <BR>2 things I want to point out.<BR><BR>1.  Numbers are better than observations.<BR>2. There is nothing wrong with the OP's tone.<BR><BR>1.  <BR>Takeo01 said <FONT color=#ff3333>Okay - I will give you that you have offered up numbers and logs on several occasions. My arguement still holds - what good are the numbers? I can twist them easily by casting more quickly or more slowly...but the observations hold water. When they say "it took me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52" that is their observation. It holds just as much water as your numbers. Why the disparity? Why the need to support it with numbers? Are they lying? Is their observation skewed, all of the people with that complaint? What is the more simple explaination?<FONT color=#ffffff><BR><BR>Let's consider how people see the red color. Most people OBSERVE it as the same color. Yet some percantage see it as a different color, they are color blind (daltonism). However, if we analyze the color using physics and find out the light wave frequency we will make no mistake. It's called a SCIENTIFIC METHOD. In this particular case this is THE ONLY WAY to prove a color blind person that the color is red, observations on the other hand will only prove that there are 2 (or more) different opinions. The method can be applied to the game as well. The truth is that numbers are more objective than observations because they are based on the scientific method.<BR>Also let's further consider the </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ff3333>"it took me 5 minutes to solo a level 46 at level 52"<FONT color=#ffffff> case. Well, if we have the log we can see exactly how the encounter was progressing. So, if there was damage done to the player during minutes 2 and 3, but no damage to the NPC was made we can ask ourselfs why? May be the player caught an interesting commercial on TV... at least we CAN notice unusual behavior - something the observational statement fails to deliver.<BR>And also, yes, lies are possible, intentional or not. One can say that you can fabricate the numbers. Yes, you can, but it's harder to do and requires more work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <FONT color=#33ccff>I disgree that numbers are better - especially given your example of the scientific method. Wouldnt it not be more simple to ask 10 other people what colour the colour red is? Surely if ten, or a hundred, other people say "that colour is red", you can prove that the colour is red with the same amount of accuracy as analyzing wavelengths. As you said, those numbers could be twisted, and we both know that is physically impossible to attain the exact same conditions for research under ANY circumstances. We can only approximate. To my knowledge, thats why its all called theory, theory of relativity, electrical theory, oh and light theory(particle/wave duality? Having the attributes of two things simultaneously? Great...) Do tell - I hear even Pythagoras is having issues in higher math circles now, which is really hard to swallow even for me.  Its all good. Maybe I am missing something just being a carpenter, but I believe in what I see, and see what I believe. If a rafter is supposed to be 10'2" to the plumb-cut, and I cut it and fit and its long, I cut it to fit. Simple for me. I guess my point about your arguement is - numbers can be very subjective too.</FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>2.<BR>I have read many posts here and on the guild thread. I think Kendricke is one of the most analytical and selfless people that post here. This combination is rare. I don't see his OP as "glorification of himself". But let's for a second assume that he did indeed intend to let people know about the level of his involvment. Does it make his post invalid and incorrect? <FONT color=#6699ff>Not at all, but I disgree with your characterization. But then again - who cares what I think eh?</FONT><BR><BR><BR>PS<BR>I totally support Kendricke's suggestion to be constructive and objective, so that it's easier for developers to help templars.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ff3333><FONT color=#ffffff><BR><BR>Yastreb, Fury <BR></FONT></FONT> <P>Message Edited by stargazer5678 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can argue forever on this point. And I am willing to for the sheer fun of it. Now if it seems like I am personally attacking Kendrick - thats a misrepresentation for sure. He posted about wanted to work together - and made braod generalized statements about the board. His right - his opinion. I fired back with what I thought, and maintain, is a valid point regarding his post. If anybody takes it that serious - what can I say? I dont even value my own opinion that much, at least not so far as this game is concerned. I guess I should be flattered, but somehow I aint. It is my observations that I rest on - to hell with numbers, but then again someday I may be proven wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lates.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[PRALL]

<P>I'm on the fence with the opinions expressed here. </P> <P>I do agree that we need to avoid flames. I agree that <U>sometimes</U> hard numbers are convincing. However, our feelings are also heard. They just need to be presented properly. The OP reflects this sentiment, but I feel it just missed an overlying point. </P> <P>Consider that many threads get derailed by comments that don't necessarily apply to the OP. In this very thread, I see comments about DPS and soloing. The OP wasn't about that. The point of the OP was to gain cooperation from the masses in gaining the ear of the developers. It was intended (if I read it correctly) to promote mature discussion rather than attacking each other when our opinions differ.</P> <P>So, add up the factors. If you are reading a thread, how much BS can you get through before you give up? The Devs have so many posts to weed out that every derail, flame, and defeatest post can cause a dev to move on to another thread. And, as I said, even this thread has had some comments that take away from the OP's point (albeit that this thread is better than a lot of threads I've come across.)</P> <P>While the OP may come across a little high on himself, if you re-read it and try to be objective, I believe you're assesment will be less clouded. I personally thought that he could have made the point in fewer words, but that is purely opinion. Overall, this needed said. If you feel something needs fixed, it's more likely to be heard in a clean thread.</P> <DIV>SUTURES WOUNDMENDER</DIV> <DIV>47 Templar, 53 Jeweler</DIV> <DIV>Co-Leader, Domini Artificium</DIV>

[Timaarit]

I'd say that those who think templars are just fine as we are, are our worst enemy. <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>I'd say that those who think templars are just fine as we are, are our worst enemy.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Amen Timaarit</P> <P>/points at Kendricke. SMITE HIM.</P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:I'd say that those who think templars are just fine as we are, are our worst enemy. <div></div> <hr></blockquote> <p>Amen Timaarit</p> <p>/points at Kendricke. SMITE HIM.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't recommend you to /duel another healer. The fight would take an eternity. But then again, we are used to that.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

especially since i approach 40 power regen a tic. The battle that never ends.

[Xerxess]

<DIV>I think kend just has a hard time talking to people. He prolly just writes and doesn't realize is talking down to people or being preachy. It happens to people, you will go off in a tangent on something you feel strong about and you feel it hits all the points but to others it feels they have been talked to down too. You shouldn't take it so personal, he prolly doesn't mean to offend anyone its just how he writes his sentences...</DIV>

[Takeo1]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>In answer to my question, I was informed that those chosen had a slightly higher "noise to signal" ratio.   It's not that the rest of the community doesn't care or that they don't come up with brilliant ideas.  It's that those of us chosen apparantly seemed to avoid the personal mudslinging more often and stuck to the facts of the issues. </P> <P>I don't argue that we should stick to the facts just because I personally like that style of argument.  I bring it up because I was informed...multiple times...by multiple developers...that it's the best way to get noticed.  Over 10,000 new posts are made every single day on these forums.  It spikes up to 50,000 after important patches or releases.  How in the world do the developers find the posts they're supposed to be looking at in all that jumble?  Think about that.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a few days after I posted this, the exact "signal to noise" ratio comment I referenced was restated in a different thread by Moorgard (emphasis mine):</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=32961#M32961" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=32961#M32961</A></P> <P>"It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the <STRONG><EM>signal-to-noise</EM></STRONG> ratio would get exponentially worse."  - Moorgard</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I point this out because I believe it clarifies my original message: that the developers definately have a preference on how they receive their feedback...and "noise" isn't it.  I can't think of any way to make it clearer:  the developers don't like us in-fighting and mucking up the place with irrelevant attacks on each other.  That's just going to be perceived as "noise". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bigmak20]

Raijiin -- If Kendricke's self-love thread is allowed then it's only fair a rebuttal is also allowed. Kendricke -- you fit the defintion of a Troll to a "T".  You pretend to be unbiased and seeking facts when you are actually just shouting down anyone that disagrees with you.  It has been consistently proven Templar DPS is sorely lacking yet you turn a blind eye towards it and pretend everything is fine (there ya' go -- that's why DPS and solo'ing is in this thread).  That is a disservice to the Templar community.  Instead of asking for more numbers just go read all the ones already documented. ... here comes the 'we heal fine' 'we have good utility' response that has nothing to do with the probelms of DPS, solo'ing, etc... you are very predictable. Always stating truths as if they rebuttal other people's valid points.  Like I said... definition of Troll to a "T".

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>Kendricke -- you fit the defintion of a Troll to a "T".  You pretend to be unbiased and seeking facts when you are actually just shouting down anyone that disagrees with you.  It has been consistently proven Templar DPS is sorely lacking yet you turn a blind eye towards it and pretend everything is fine (there ya' go -- that's why DPS and solo'ing is in this thread).  That is a disservice to the Templar community.  Instead of asking for more numbers just go read all the ones already documented.<BR><BR>... here comes the 'we heal fine' 'we have good utility' response that has nothing to do with the probelms of DPS, solo'ing, etc... you are very predictable. Always stating truths as if they rebuttal other people's valid points.  Like I said... definition of Troll to a "T".<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please quote any instance where you think I claim our soloing DPS is "fine".  I'll happily respond with quotes from posts where I've stated that other classes solo better than us; posts where I've advocated a hammer pet or a holy aura style self-cast damage shield; posts where I've admitted Furies solo much easier than we do; posts where I've admitted that Furies are better choices than Templars in small groups or soloing situations; and posts where I've advocated other tweaks to our ability to solo.</P> <P>If you're going to call me out and attach names to me, at least do it for factual reasons, please.  This is exactly the type of "noise" I've advocated against.  It's not productive and certainly not solving any issues by attacking me personally - especially if the attacks aren't even true.</P> <P>By the by, I don't "just" ask for numbers.  I provide them.  I provide parses.  I provide screenshots.  I provide logs.  You may not agree with my conclusions, but you can't deny that I attempt to follow my own advice on the subject.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[bigmak20]

Kendricke -- you made a thread about you and anyone who responds to it is "attacking you"?  If you start a thread about you then.. well.. yeah.  Anyone who disagrees how great a boon you are to Templars is attacking you I guess.  lol This thread is noise. I absolutely like that you have good ideas and provide numbers.  That's what... 1 in 100 posts?  The rest are noise where you are shouting down anyone that disagrees with you.

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>Not speaking of anybody in particular - because even in good humour I may get haXX0rd, posting a few parses and posting and overwhelming amount of observation/opinion to the contrary of the majority if the posters is alot different then posting alot of parses and alot of logs and alot of other crap. Its all good. I havent posted on parse, a log, or alot of other crap, nor do I intend to, and the devs can take that anyway they want - I really dont care about it THAT much. But - if they really want to know whats going on - they can read the MULTITUDE of posts that already exist, and probably, just maybe, perhaps, get a clue as to what the hell is going on in Templar Sub-Class.</P> <P> </P> <P>Then again - this is just bait right? Bah.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>The rest are noise where you are shouting down anyone that disagrees with you.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...and what, exactly, was the point of this post?  Were you adding to the discussion ... or attempting to disagree with me?  Were you discussing Templars...or me?</P> <P>Starting to see my point?</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> bigmak2010 wrote:The rest are noise where you are shouting down anyone that disagrees with you. <hr> </blockquote> <p>...and what, exactly, was the point of this post?  Were you adding to the discussion ... or attempting to disagree with me?  Were you discussing Templars...or me?</p> <p>Starting to see my point?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>/holds_up_mirror <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <P> But - if they really want to know whats going on - they can read the MULTITUDE of posts that already exist, and probably, just maybe, perhaps, get a clue as to what the hell is going on in Templar Sub-Class.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...and what makes us think they don't?  However, if someone just starts yelling "this is broken"...how are the developers supposed to respond?</P> <P>WHAT IF the time between a Fury and Templar soloing is only 10% - not 300-400% as some have claimed?  What if the developers see claims like this as hyperbole?  Are they more or less willing to accept someone's claim at face value next time they see it?</P> <P>WHAT IF the actually difference in group dps contributions (including debuffs, buffs, and all other indirect methods of increasting damage) was found to be far less than what is actually claimed?  WHAT IF that difference was only 20% difference instead of 200% difference?  Would the developers be more or less willing, in your opinion, to take the next such claim at face value?</P> <P>I'm trying to get past the "what ifs" and trying to get others to help me.  Why is it that those who feel there are problems in our class have such a hard time actually showing logs to show this?  It can't be that difficult, can it?  You want to shut me up on an issue - <EM>that's the fastest way right there.</EM>  Provide something that supports a claim, rather than just screaming "this is broke - FIX IT".</P> <P>Calling me names doesn't stop me.  Telling me I'm a troll doesn't stop me.  Telling me I'm wrong doesn't stop me.  You want to put me in my place - then show me.  Don't tell me I'm wrong - <EM>show me you're right!</EM></P> <P>Right now, does anyone feel that Glory of Combat is "useless" after my posted test log?  Even people who previously said it was "useless" are now suddenly warning that I'm going to get the spell "nerfed"!  Why would the developers "nerf" a "useless" spell?  Why would anyone be worried about losing a "useless" spell?  I didn't just say "you're wrong".  I posted 5 minutes of log and said "this is what I'm talking about". </P> <P>Do that to me.  Prove you're right.  Don't just tell me that you can't solo a level 47 in less than 5 minutes when you're level 52 (I'll post a link to that original claim if anyone wants).  Show me the logs that show you soloing level 47s over 5 minutes.  Because I'm pulling down level 47's in 30-50 seconds, even with my poor gear and spells.  So when I see a claim that it's taking 5 minutes...or even 2 minutes...my skeptic sense starts tingling.  I fire up Combat Stats and get to parsing.  I start ripping through diggers in Sinking Sands.  I rush over to Everfrost and tear into wolves.  I find the Haunted House and begin swatting rats and spiders.  I look through the parses and see 30-50 seconds consistently.  If I can do that then the developers sure can.  So what makes anyone here think that just saying such a thing is going to make them change the game suddenly?  I don't care how loud a wheel squeaks.  If it's not broken, you don't fix it. </P> <P>Yes, our class has issues.  It really does.  But we're not doing any favors to ourselves by making up claims that are exaggerated or full of hyperbole.  Stick to the facts.  It's easy enough to see that we're in need of attention without producing more wild claims.</P> <P>Personally, I want to see more use out of my Sign line.  I like what I'm seeing on test, but it's not enough for most Templars to actually start using the spell.  I want to see a VISIBLE spell effect on it, so my group knows not to attack it.  I want a better Soothe - one that hits encounters, not just individuals.  I want to see secondary effects on my heals again.  I want to see an upgrade to my Benediction line that makes sense.  I want to see a faster cast on my Prostrate.  I want to see more variation in priest heroic opportunities (IS THERE a combat wheel that requires the symbol we find on Bounty of the Virtuous?)</P> <P>That's what I want to see.  I can show where those spells have issues.  I've already sent feedbacks on them.  I want to see more changes like that to make me feel even more useful in groups.  I don't need evac, spirit of wolf, or any other thing from any other priest.  I want to work with what we already have before I start trying to re-reinvent the wheel.</P> <P>I've been working on Test server (I have a Tier V Templar there) and on Guk (Tier VI), and trying to compare differences.  I try to get facts.  I try to find reasons.  I try to figure out what's intended.  I work from that.</P> <P>What I don't do is make outrageous claims or try to exaggerate my points.  I certainly don't try to resort to name calling or finger pointing. </P> <P>But hey, what do I know, right?  :smileywink:</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Takeo1]

<P>No comment.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[zorbdan]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zorbdan wrote:<BR> <P>Me? I shoot myself in the foot every day, so what . </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Love that - may use it sometime.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lates.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Please quote any instance where you think I claim our soloing DPS is "fine".    </p><div></div><hr></blockquote>You claim that in every single post of yours where you state that our role is to heal groups. Isn't mage role to do dps in groups? Then why can they solo so well? How about certain fighter classes? Aren't they supposed to be tanks for grousp only? And any other healing class, where is it stated that some classes are not meant to heal group (which they still can) but to solo and do dps? Fury dps is claimed to be due to them being furies. They had dps in eq1 and they have it now. Still every fury that wants to heal like templar, says 'this is not eq1, cleric is not supposed to be necessary to heal a group'. I say the same to dps, this is not eq1, in this game templars should have dps.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> I say the same to dps, this is not eq1, in this game templars should have dps.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In a group setting, I tend to boost melee groups more than Furies I know.  Furies tend to boost caster groups more than I can.  I therefore look to group with scouts and fighters more.  When duoing, I tend to partner up with a Scout or Fighter guildmate with my 53 Templar while my fiance tends to group with a mage guildmate with her 50 Fury.  </P> <P>We've each got our strengths and weaknesses.  I've got my complaints.  She's got hers.  Perhaps we're more optimistic than most, but I think it's just pragmatism:  we realize what we have and try to find what we can do with it.   </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> I say the same to dps, this is not eq1, in this game templars should have dps.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In a group setting, I tend to boost melee groups more than Furies I know.  Furies tend to boost caster groups more than I can.  I therefore look to group with scouts and fighters more.  When duoing, I tend to partner up with a Scout or Fighter guildmate with my 53 Templar while my fiance tends to group with a mage guildmate with her 50 Fury.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> As long as it is not noticable to 99% of the players, they will pick up a fury. It is not about boosting a group, we need a boost while soloing. </SPAN> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>**EDITED FOR INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span>

[Nindor2]

I normally keep out of this board, because it just overly raises my bloodpressure. EQ2 is not out on the market long enough to verify this, but so far it looks like development follows the same guidelines as EQ1 (and every other software project usually does). Whichever groups makes the most noise while pulling in one direction will be heard and acted upon. In EQ1, druids were broken in groups for a long time. They all banded together, formulated their needs and were pretty vocal about it. In the end they got what they needed. In EQ1, clerics could not agree on whether they were broken after druid changes, aund ununifiedly milled around. Half claimed significant changes need to be made for clerics to be useful, half claimed clerics were still overpowered. In EQ2, druids were long broken in groups, and after making consistent demands got what they needed in groups. In EQ2, templars, you'll already have guessed, could not even agree whether the class needed anything or not, so no significant changes look like they will be forthcoming. As long as we cannot agree on anything, nothing will happen. It will be interesting to see how far templars will have to fall back before we will present an unified front. My bet is, it won't ever happen. As my personal opinion on the templar state, its in the middle between the "all is fine" and "i quit" groups. Grouping is ok, if not even near what we had before LU13. That's ok, i can live with it. Soloing works, but is too repetitive and slow. Interrupts are sometimes just ridiculous when 3 mobs, that can barely hit you, keep you almost continuously interrupted until you kill 1-2 of them off. Nuke efficiency is good, we just need bigger nukes (without longer recast) to fix most of our problems. But i won't hold my breath, as druids will most likely continue their crusade for more power, and clerics feel the need for more punishment. <div></div>

[BenEm]

<P>**REMOVED, PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Nindor2 wrote:<BR><BR>But i won't hold my breath, as druids will most likely continue their crusade for more power, and clerics feel the need for more punishment.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> <BR> <DIV>Your whole post is excellent, but this point is the key. Druids were very good in EQ1 in all "whining in the same direction" to get what they wanted. It is largely the same here in EQII, though the Warden/Fury split has causes some internecine warfare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, clerics in EQ1, and again Templars here in EQII, cannot agree on what the cleric class actually is, and SoE prefers to keep it that way to avoid us uniting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The hardcore raiders. These are a small minority, but typically over-represented on the boards. These are more interested in raiding issues and top-end content grouping. These include many who appreciate the balance of the class as a whole, incluidng non-raiding elements, and who post in a balanced way. However, they include a small but vocal section who truely despise soloing and small grouping, have no respect for those who do that, and not only do not care about their class-mates who play that way, but actively encourage changes to marginalize/weaken those people, in the hope they will change class, leaving themselves feeling more elite about themselves. You can spot a few of these on this board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The Casual-style player who mostly groups with friends/guildmates, has regular groups, etc (typically, can vary of course) and sees us as "best healer". They campaign for clerics have best heals. They show disdain of people asking for more DPS/utility. You can spot many of these on this board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- The Casual-style player who mostly small groups/solos, does not have a regular group, but goes LFG or groups with strangers more (typically, can vary of course). These tend to more accept the loss of the healing advantage, and campaign for more DPS/Utility. You can spot many of these on this board as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These three groups have very disparate needs and desires. The intelligent amongst us realize that these overlap and have much in common, but each group has its extremists who look down their noses at those in the other camps, and it does us as a class much harm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, just to complete the mess, we have a couple of fanatical board warriors, who argue with everyone, flood our boards with argumentative posts disagreeing with almost everyone, in my opinion, just to make a name for themselves. Post counts measured in the thousands, we VERY MUCH know who these are, and they cause a major problem for the rest of us as they dilute and obfuscate the message we are all giving with endless truisms, half-truths and misrepresented fallacy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where do we go from here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, we just have to trust the developers to see past all the smoke and get to the bottom of where they want our class to go, and TELL US. Then, if they really intend for our class to "suck bigtime" for those of us in one or more of the above camps, we can all just give up and play some other class, or some other game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna / Annaelisa</DIV>

[Nindor2]

Erm, i'm not on Kendricke's side (i think Timaarit's statement about why we are our own enemies is right to the point), but many things are not as easy as they seem. However, I always precast stack reactives on any major fight, and rarely if ever draw aggro. I can solo a yellow ^ con without problems (except healer mobs). It doesn't really take forever, though it takes a lot longer than most other classes. I can usually keep my groups alive ok. In many points the truth lies somewhere in the middle. All observations people make are relative to the image everyone has of his class. Since that image varies, the perception varies. Maybe my perception is colored by never really having played any class besides EQ1 cleric/EQ2 Templar in my career. If people would stop taking everything to a personal level (of which Kendricke is as guilty as many others here, despite his otherwise claims), maybe we could find out a common ground from which we could start a shared vision of a good future for all of us. But experience makes me rather doubt that. <div></div>

[KingOfF00LS]

 I wonder if posts full of misleading statements and half-truths with over-glamorization of logs and parses in an effort to discount real world observation are considered "noise".... Surely constant trolling, egotism, arrogance, conceit, condescension, and haughtiness are "noise", right?   Anyone know?<p>Message Edited by KingOfF00LS on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[Suite]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 PM</span>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nindor2 wrote:<BR>Erm, i'm not on Kendricke's side (i think Timaarit's statement about why we are our own enemies is right to the point), but many things are not as easy as they seem.<BR><BR>However, I always precast stack reactives on any major fight, and rarely if ever draw aggro. I can solo a yellow ^ con without problems (except healer mobs). It doesn't really take forever, though it takes a lot longer than most other classes. I can usually keep my groups alive ok.<BR><BR>In many points the truth lies somewhere in the middle. All observations people make are relative to the image everyone has of his class. Since that image varies, the perception varies. Maybe my perception is colored by never really having played any class besides EQ1 cleric/EQ2 Templar in my career.<BR><BR>If people would stop taking everything to a personal level (of which Kendricke is as guilty as many others here, despite his otherwise claims), maybe we could find out a common ground from which we could start a shared vision of a good future for all of us. But experience makes me rather doubt that.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>On the precast reactives ... Got wiped 2x using them last night ... MoB was 3 up orange Heroic to me  ...would the orange con make a dif ? Also  I may have had the group reactive up as well is that a no no ? Going to try just the singkle target reactive only tonight to see if its the group reactive only thats [Removed for Content] them off .</DIV>

[KingOfF00LS]

<p>Message Edited by KingOfF00LS on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[Gcha]

<DIV>oops</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gchang on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 AM</span>

[Noom]

<P>Lurker here !</P> <P>I so agree with Caethre's statment, maybe we should make her queen of templars :smileywink:</P>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You want to put me in my place - then show me.  Don't tell me I'm wrong - <EM>show me you're right!</EM><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Nobody has to show you anything.  Despite your constant efforts to create an impression to the contrary, you're just another guy around here like the rest of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the devs would like to be able to read player comments without having to dredge through endless posts from with one person constantly lecturing everyone else about forum conduct, how to present ideas, how to debate, yada yada yada.  That's the "noise" around here.    Nobody here signed up for that course.    Nobody wants any "tips".  Just put your arguments out without these lengthy diatribes (a reasonable number of times, not continuously), and allow other people to have and express opinions.  If the devs don't like what someone says, fine.  People will live with that.  This is not YOUR responsibility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Surely even Raijiin is going to start noticing that there is ONE person in the EQ2 forums who constantly feels the need to complain about personal attacks, etc.  Food for thought ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its gotten to be extremely unpleasant to even try to try to read through the posts in this forum.  Raijiin, you really need to get some control on this or it's going to be one person left here, lecturing to himself.</DIV>

[zorbdan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You want to put me in my place - then show me.  Don't tell me I'm wrong - <EM>show me you're right!</EM><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Nobody has to show you anything.  Despite your constant efforts to create an impression to the contrary, you're just another guy around here like the rest of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the devs would like to be able to read player comments without having to dredge through endless posts from with one person constantly lecturing everyone else about forum conduct, how to present ideas, how to debate, yada yada yada.  That's the "noise" around here.    Nobody here signed up for that course.    Nobody wants any "tips".  Just put your arguments out without these lengthy diatribes (a reasonable number of times, not continuously), and allow other people to have and express opinions.  If the devs don't like what someone says, fine.  People will live with that.  This is not YOUR responsibility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Surely even Raijiin is going to start noticing that there is ONE person in the EQ2 forums who constantly feels the need to complain about personal attacks, etc.  Food for thought ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its gotten to be extremely unpleasant to even try to try to read through the posts in this forum.  Raijiin, you really need to get some control on this or it's going to be one person left here, lecturing to himself.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/cheer !!! what he said !! I think I posted something along these lines but it was removed, hehe ohh well the message will get across one way or another ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3700 posts is ''noise''</DIV>

[Sokolov]

Templars eating Templars.  Is this divine cannibalism? <div></div>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Templars eating Templars.  Is this divine cannibalism? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Which of them do you think would taste better?</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>3devious wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:Templars eating Templars.  Is this divine cannibalism? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Which of them do you think would taste better?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>My first instinct is to reply with something suggestive.  But I will resist.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:33 PM</span>

[mc10]

<DIV>It seems like the few who like all the changes...might be the ones who sent all posts to the devs,</DIV> <DIV>saying what was wrong with the game pre 13...so now they have to defend what they asked for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>approx...</DIV> <DIV>just a poor templar....lvl 51....power 3100   health3700   wis 270.[with potions over 300]    int 103</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>things i hate with temp at min.</DIV> <DIV>1... top of the list...solo..feels like key crunching...and waiting for spells to cycle...takes far to long.</DIV> <DIV>2....5% chance to heal....not seen it heal..so dont know if spells work.....</DIV> <DIV>3...the stunes, fizz, interupts....i get a lot even from 5 lvl's below me</DIV> <DIV>4...need adept 3....sick of spending weeks harvesting.....so spells not all high....makes game very very boring. </DIV> <DIV>5...armour...just getting hit to much....feels like a wizards robe.</DIV> <DIV>6...dps.....very very bad......i have 103int...at lvl 51 and  spells hit under 300...unless undead....[or specials</DIV> <DIV>all on same 2 min timer.] why do we still have lvl 38 spell....just gets weeker as u climb....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not all bad....heals in the most part seem fine....could do with timers sorting....to slow when tank looses agro</DIV> <DIV>and u need that emergency heal ready....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just starting to find groups again...so the sun does come out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>still having people leave due to the changes....its sad....lost 9 from guild 2 weeks ago and this week another 2.</DIV> <DIV>main reason given.....boring, due to xp or its just not fun any more....or its still not fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my last word....u balanced healing so balance dps for all heal classes...not just templars......simple....</DIV>

[Kayle]

<P>Let me clear the air of the smoke-screen, which is the essence of this thread.</P> <P>The OP attempts to admonish the player-base from employing particular styles of rhetoric which he deems personally distasteful and summarily concludes and surmises, that devs don't read said rants and dismiss it as "noise". </P> <DIV>Let me show you the other side, just one example, of dev's ranting to devs.  Just in case you were being swayed into thinking they don't bicker amongst themselves and get the impression they sit around in a quiet circle of contemplation chanting "Ommmmm", inviting only those of equal mindsets to their Summits.  They don't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Austin Game Conference 2005 took place 2 weeks ago.  It's a large gathering of developers, designers, programmers, hardware specialists, writers, etc. to speak on the topic of gaming.  This year the conference was expecting 2000 people in attendance.  Among them was keynote speaker, John Smedley, President, Sony Online Entertainment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While many of the reviews I read were nothing more then the usual "how we do get more money" by introducing new technologies and ideas and "here is mine", there were a few who cut to the chase, taking point-blank aim at the problems which cause upset to the player community as a whole.   Gamasutra featured an article entitled 'Postcards from the 2005 Austin Game conference' (<A href="http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7125" target=_blank>http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7125</A>) which depicts quite a different picture of what takes place when you put all the 'brains' in one room.  Here is an excerpt from that session:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>One of the most interesting parts of the conference was the 'MMO Rant' lecture, and this extract catches <A href="http://www.skotos.net/about/pr/05252001.html" target=_blank>Jessica Mulligan</A> in full flow: <I>"Mulligan's rant boiled down to a repeated “you suck,” aimed at nearly everyone in the room: Carnegie Mellon students, developers of MMOGs, developers of the games' content and themes, and even <A href="http://www.gameconference.com/advisors/gordonwalton.html" target=_blank>Gordon Walton</A>. “I am so frustrated after the last 20 years of making the same mistakes over and over and over,” Mulligan said, <STRONG>citing examples such as coding before designing, changing a game after launch, ignoring the community of players, launching before the game and team is ready, and shoddily established billing systems</STRONG>. “Don't start coding before the design is fleshed out,” she said. “Before the ship sails out from the dock, you've got to know where you destination is.”</I></DIV> <DIV><I></I> </DIV> <DIV><I> Mulligan, not concerned about naming names, added: “ World of WarCraft has some of the worst community relations situations I've ever seen,” <STRONG>stressing the importance of not only supporting your community, but listening to them to find out what will satisfy them as players and as paying customers</STRONG>. To the World of WarCraft developers, Mulligan added, “Why dont you just tell [your players], ‘You're all a bunch of f---ing nerds and we want your money.'” About launching before you're ready, Mulligan turned momentarily serious. “I understand the considerations. Sometimes the money runs out. Sometimes you work for a public company. This can be helped by designing better, learning from history and also putting in customer services in place.” </I></DIV> <DIV><I></I> </DIV> <DIV><I>And on bad billing programs: “I thought that we were over this as an industry. I actually worked on a game where the billing program was written three days before launch. It was tested exactly once with only one credit card.” And there were presales for that game. “That's one of the first interactions your players have with you,” said Mulligan about billing. “Don't keep making the same mistakes.” Walton, taking hold of the room then announced, “<STRONG>We've managed to put ourselves in the spiral of mediocrity.” Mulligan, with impeccable timing, called out the action of the audience: “And all the guys from Sony start clapping!”"</STRONG>  (emphasis added)</I></DIV><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </P> <P>This is a clear indication to me that the developer not only reads customer rants, but further understands exactly what causes them.  Mulligan is no fool and she doesn't sugar-coat or smoke-screen issues that result in problematic games containing disgruntled customers.  The heart of the problem here is development and production.  In the above examples, she directs criticism where it belongs -- coding before designing, changing a game after launch and ignoring the community of players.</P> <P>No amount of fanboi-ism is going to alleviate customer frustration when those three elements exist.  If anything, it only ADDS to the frustration when fanboi meets critic.  Neither negative or positive reviews with regard to a game who has suffered such complications is going to change the fact that it happened, resulting in much "noise" from player-base to industry reviews to Austin Conferences.  It's the RESULT of said actions.</P> <P>Ultimately, the CAUSE of the frustration is what needs to be addressed, as Mulligan points out.  SoE cannot avoid the fact that they HAVE changed the game after launch and Mulligan addresses that as a NEGATIVE thing to engage in.  Their next course of action should be in analyzing the customer review, good or bad, and resolve it accordingly -- i.e., listen to all of your customer's opinions, for better or for worse.</P> <P>There is no point in now establishing a criteria or how-to essay on the pitfalls of ranting.  As you can see, the devs do enough of that on their own and direct it at their own, just like we do.</P><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[Nari]

Hey! Stop picking on my school! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Kemm]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST AND FLAME BAIT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[Skydude]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[BenEm]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 PM</span>

[zorbdan]

He was just rewarded with the title of ''LORD'', so you guys better just give up now or fear the wrath of the ''lord'' of templars. Seriously this is just sickening. I think ''lord of noise'' would have been more appropriate.

[Nari]

IBTL Well, guys, he's gone almost a whole day without "trying to get us to behave." Hopefully, the class will move forward for whatever reason. <div></div>

[Kayle]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the <STRONG><EM>signal-to-noise</EM></STRONG> ratio would get exponentially worse."  - Moorgard</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I point this out because I believe it clarifies my original message: that the developers definately have a preference on how they receive their feedback...and "noise" isn't it.  I can't think of any way to make it clearer:  the developers don't like us in-fighting and mucking up the place with irrelevant attacks on each other.  That's just going to be perceived as "noise". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I had a high-level ranger in EQ1.  I frequented mobhunter.com more times then I can count.  Moorgard made a lot of "noise" prior to being hired by SoE.  What do you call this?:  <a href="http://mobhunter.com/moorgard/-442114102.html" target=_blank>How Much SoE..."</a> Yeah, it's all in the presentation alright. Parody or not, he still predicted EQ2 would be "hella lame" and other "noise" and he was STILL hired by SoE as a game designer. Furor, the absolute worst example of online etiquette, was hired by WoW in the same capacity. The industry pays MUCH attention to "noise" and there's proof right there.

[Nari]

Now that is funny.  In all fairness, I was certain this game was going to suck, too.  I was lured in by the shiny metal box. <div></div>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>oooo Kend isn't such a bad person...I mean look at this avatar...its soooo cute! </DIV>

[Kiara-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zorbdan wrote:<BR>He was just rewarded with the title of ''LORD'', so you guys better just give up now or fear the wrath of the ''lord'' of templars. Seriously this is just sickening. I think ''lord of noise'' would have been more appropriate. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Ken isn't the only one with the title of Lord.  There are several.  It has to do with post count, time registered, and pages read.  Nothing special for him.  Don't get in a twist about it sweetie.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>And while you may not agree with how he presented it, the core of his thought is sound.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>All the bickering amonst ourselves won't help us as much as presenting a (relatively) united front with a list of reasonable things we'd like to see for our class.  We're not going to be uber healers extraordinaire.  Nor will we be the BEST (and therefore only viable) healers in the game, but we can (if we work together and get constructive and positive) get some stuff for our class to help flesh us out a bit and balance us.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>It's all a matter of trying to look at things with a clear head and not be blinded by our emotions.  And believe me. I get all kinds of emotional about my character.  I'm very attached to her.  But we'll do ourselves a lot more good if we're calm and rational and not cranky.</FONT></DIV>

[Suite]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 AM</span>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Suite wrote: <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Raijiin.... do you have something against half elves?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>/ponder</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Suite<BR></FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well you ARE half-breed misfits afterall <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*bats eyelashes*<BR></DIV>

[Suite]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

The TPS report experts.  Lots of irrelevant charts and needless pontificating.  We engineers love this kind of PM (Kendricke has exhorted his imminent qualifications as a Project Manager in one of his self love posts). 

[zorbdan]

Purple and pink text hurts my eyes .

[Kayle]

<DIV>Suite, the reason your posts get zapped is because someone has brought it to Raijinn's attention.  Raijinn doesn't have time to read entire threads, therefore he can only address the post being complained about.  These players know this and some take well advantage of Raijinn in that respect.  They also take advantage in knowing that Raijinn has to enforce the forum rules because that's what he's hired to do.  I say taking advantage because it is a serious problem when someone can manipulate the system by being cleverly verbose.  However, I believe Raijinn is catching onto that problem and the Templar concerns faster then we all may think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would suggest PM'ing him and discussing what he's obviously not allowed to discuss in public.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I will say in public is, there is an increasing concern that some of this is being taken in game - where posters are being reported by certain people to their guild leaders for posting what that player deems as an inappropriate post.  Some even, across servers.  I suggested to that person to report that to Raijinn as well so he understands the extent of what you so aptly referred to as, Machiavellian tactics.  With enough complaints, you'll dethrone the Prince and possibly get substantial fixes accomplished.  :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>Challenging SOE in a confrontational manner is one of the first, best, and last ways to earn a reputation you may not realize:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=7571#M7571" target=_blank>Per Blackguard:</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>"...making sarcastic threads and (so I hear, though I didn't see it myself) threads that attack the development team are the exact opposite of a good way to be heard. If a particular person makes us resent them, we aren't going to read what they have to say in the first place. That's not saying we don't listen to the concerns of [players], but it is saying we do not listen to the concerns of someone who obviously lacks any respect for the development team or the rest of the player community. If you start a post with 'screw you SOE' or anything nearly as abrasive, we don't read your post."</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take that passage as you wish.  Personally, I think it reinforces certain arguments that have been raised within these forums regarding "noise".  You want to maintain a confrontational attitude with developers, consistently attack fellow players, resort to mud slinging, and similar tactics, then you risk losing your message in the noise.  In fact, from what I'm reading and what I've heard, you risk having someone you dislike being the one that gets heard over you - especially if that "someone" is not resorting to such tactics. </P> <P>Some of you may not like me, Radar-X, or others.  Some of you may hate us.  Some of you may want us banned.  Some of you even say as much on these forums.  When it comes down to it though, those sort of comments are one of the fastest ways to earn a reputation with the powers that be.  No, we don't represent the Templar community and none of us is claiming that we do.  However, if your own message is getting lost in the attacks, then you're forcing our message to become louder by default.  Instead of silencing our message and removing us, you're ironically only helping us to be heard all the more by those who really count.</P> <P>We all want a better Templar class.  Some of us differ on how best to accomplish that goal.  Learn how to present those goals in a way that's going to be seen as constructive, or apparantly risk not being heard at all. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Challenging SOE in a confrontational manner is one of the first, best, and last ways to earn a reputation you may not realize:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=7571#M7571" target=_blank>Per Blackguard:</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>"...making sarcastic threads and (so I hear, though I didn't see it myself) threads that attack the development team are the exact opposite of a good way to be heard. If a particular person makes us resent them, we aren't going to read what they have to say in the first place. That's not saying we don't listen to the concerns of [players], but it is saying we do not listen to the concerns of someone who obviously lacks any respect for the development team or the rest of the player community. If you start a post with 'screw you SOE' or anything nearly as abrasive, we don't read your post."</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take that passage as you wish.  Personally, I think it reinforces certain arguments that have been raised within these forums regarding "noise".  You want to maintain a confrontational attitude with developers, consistently attack fellow players, resort to mud slinging, and similar tactics, then you risk losing your message in the noise.  In fact, from what I'm reading and what I've heard, you risk having someone you dislike being the one that gets heard over you - especially if that "someone" is not resorting to such tactics. </P> <P>Some of you may not like me, Radar-X, or others.  Some of you may hate us.  Some of you may want us banned.  Some of you even say as much on these forums.  When it comes down to it though, those sort of comments are one of the fastest ways to earn a reputation with the powers that be.  No, we don't represent the Templar community and none of us is claiming that we do.  However, if your own message is getting lost in the attacks, then you're forcing our message to become louder by default.  Instead of silencing our message and removing us, you're ironically only helping us to be heard all the more by those who really count.</P> <P>We all want a better Templar class.  Some of us differ on how best to accomplish that goal.  Learn how to present those goals in a way that's going to be seen as constructive, or apparantly risk not being heard at all. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Any other wise words Master?</P> <P>Your tone is annoying. In another thread you said something about somebody doing you harm. I could almost understand the reasoning behind it. I guarantee you one thing, if you ever talked to me to my face the way you do over the chat board, we would be in a dark alley somewhere solving our disagreement. </P> <P>You have to be the rudest person I know of on these forums, even worse then Azrael. Sometimes you bring up good points, and I almost want to respect you for it, but then I look at other posts you have made to people and want to kick you in the shins. </P> <P>Here is a news flash for you and you can take this back to your Dev friends, infact do that, they need to hear it. If people bring up issues with a class, and the only response they get in a couple months is none, (we may have had one response from a dev or moderator) what do you expect the player base to do? Assume that the Devs are looking into it? Assume we are being heard? How about we assume we are being ignored. How about we assume that the Devs could not care less. </P> <P>You know I dont think that 2 minutes a week x 24 classes is asking for much. They could lock and sticky a thread to the top saying "These are the issues we are looking at for your class. Please start a thread for feedback." But then again, that is being Proactive as opposed to Reactive. </P> <P>Kendricke when you realize you are not the only Templar posting on these forums, when you start posting your parses, when you prove all of your claims beyond a reasonable doubt, then you can DEMAND as you often do the same things from others although you would get a more favorable reaction requesting it. Until then, what you bring here is not fact but OPINION, and should be treated as such.</P> <P>Go ahead and contact my Guild Leader, she knows I am a miserable loudmouthed opinionated [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] also. I will even give you a hint, The Horde on Everfrost. Oh and Grats on your new Title here, but this Templar bows to no man.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Challenging SOE in a confrontational manner is one of the first, best, and last ways to earn a reputation you may not realize:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=7571#M7571" target=_blank>Per Blackguard:</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>"...making sarcastic threads and (so I hear, though I didn't see it myself) threads that attack the development team are the exact opposite of a good way to be heard. If a particular person makes us resent them, we aren't going to read what they have to say in the first place. That's not saying we don't listen to the concerns of [players], but it is saying we do not listen to the concerns of someone who obviously lacks any respect for the development team or the rest of the player community. If you start a post with 'screw you SOE' or anything nearly as abrasive, we don't read your post."</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take that passage as you wish.  Personally, I think it reinforces certain arguments that have been raised within these forums regarding "noise".  You want to maintain a confrontational attitude with developers, consistently attack fellow players, resort to mud slinging, and similar tactics, then you risk losing your message in the noise.  In fact, from what I'm reading and what I've heard, you risk having someone you dislike being the one that gets heard over you - especially if that "someone" is not resorting to such tactics. </P> <P>Some of you may not like me, Radar-X, or others.  Some of you may hate us.  Some of you may want us banned.  Some of you even say as much on these forums.  When it comes down to it though, those sort of comments are one of the fastest ways to earn a reputation with the powers that be.  No, we don't represent the Templar community and none of us is claiming that we do.  However, if your own message is getting lost in the attacks, then you're forcing our message to become louder by default.  Instead of silencing our message and removing us, you're ironically only helping us to be heard all the more by those who really count.</P> <P>We all want a better Templar class.  Some of us differ on how best to accomplish that goal.  Learn how to present those goals in a way that's going to be seen as constructive, or apparantly risk not being heard at all. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>P.S. Obviously that isnt true because you show a lack of Respect to your own fellow Templars all the time and yet you are listened to quite often. God knows why.

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BR> <P>Challenging SOE in a confrontational manner is one of the first, best, and last ways to earn a reputation you may not realize: <FONT color=#ff3333>please - educate...</FONT></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=7571#M7571" target=_blank>Per Blackguard:</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>"...making sarcastic threads and (so I hear, though I didn't see it myself) threads that attack the development team are the exact opposite of a good way to be heard. If a particular person makes us resent them, we aren't going to read what they have to say in the first place. That's not saying we don't listen to the concerns of [players], but it is saying we do not listen to the concerns of someone who obviously lacks any respect for the development team or the rest of the player community. If you start a post with 'screw you SOE' or anything nearly as abrasive, we don't read your post." <FONT color=#ff3333>Well - you never can tell [Removed for Content] passes for intelligence even in big companies like Sony. Sometimes its the people who have the worst to say that should be heard the loudest, not the ones who try and "reason" through it all...</FONT></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Take that passage as you wish.  Personally, I think it reinforces certain arguments that have been raised within these forums regarding "noise".  You want to maintain a confrontational attitude with developers, consistently attack fellow players, resort to mud slinging, and similar tactics, then you risk losing your message in the noise.  In fact, from what I'm reading and what I've heard, you risk having someone you dislike being the one that gets heard over you - especially if that "someone" is not resorting to such tactics. <FONT color=#ff3333>Really? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - and I was just getting the warm and fuzzies for SoE ya know? Again - if they are that stupid, they deserve what they get...a diminishing player base along with declining revenues. Did I say that out loud?</FONT></P> <P>Some of you may not like me, Radar-X, or others.  Some of you may hate us.  Some of you may want us banned.  Some of you even say as much on these forums.  When it comes down to it though, those sort of comments are one of the fastest ways to earn a reputation with the powers that be.  No, we don't represent the Templar community and none of us is claiming that we do.  However, if your own message is getting lost in the attacks, then you're forcing our message to become louder by default.  Instead of silencing our message and removing us, you're ironically only helping us to be heard all the more by those who really count. <FONT color=#ff3333>Yeah - yeah. I know the speech. "The voice of one truthful man is heard above all others" blah blah blah. I am gonna go out on a limb here...I think you are heard so well because of...post counts? Derailing? Calling for proofs you RARELY submit yourself? Failure to admit error? A poor sense of humour?</FONT></P> <P>We all want a better Templar class.  Some of us differ on how best to accomplish that goal.  Learn how to present those goals in a way that's going to be seen as constructive, or apparantly risk not being heard at all. <FONT color=#ff3333>Already have boyo - and it still isnt...umm...working? Look - I have a little constructive stuff for ya as well....since you are handing it out(NOW NOW Raj he offered it!)...take a step back and re-read alot of your own posts. Check for content, opinion, and "facts". Look for tone, is it abrasive? Or belittling? Do you EVER admit that you take yourself too serious or that you are wrong? Just take a look - I think you will be surprised...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333>Oh me? I am a first class [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. But thats just me. Tell it like it is Kend....are you?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333>Lates</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>I guess I'm completely proven wrong now, right?  :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Takeo1]

<P> You must be a fast reader and blatantly evasive....either way, I can admit my own.</P> <P> </P> <P>You cant. </P> <P> </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kayle]

<P>Kendricke wrote:  "Some of you may not like me, Radar-X, or others.  Some of you may hate us.  Some of you may want us banned.  Some of you even say as much on these forums.  When it comes down to it though, those sort of comments are one of the fastest ways to earn a reputation with the powers that be."</P> <P> </P> <P>This seems to imply that Radar-X agrees with Kendricke.  tsk.. tsk.. if this is true Radar, you've been LYING to me all this time!  :smileytongue:</P> <P>It also seems to imply that there is a power out there that I'm going to lose my reputation with. hmm.. rather arrogant talk if you ask me.  If I wasn't upset with SoE, I sure would be if they spoke to me that way just because I gave them feedback they asked me for.</P> <P>Contrastly, no one has power over me.  I choose the game.  I pay the money.  The one with the "power" is the one with the money.  If I give them my money and they abuse that power, then I don't give them any money and they just lost any power they thought they had over me.  I walk away and find something else.  At that point I could care less what they think of me.  See how it works?  Arrogance begets cancellations.  Be careful how you speak for SoE.</P>

[Kendricke]

<P>The ones with the "power" are the ones capable of making desired changes.  If you can produce your own Templar class changes on your character on your server, then I'm impressed.  </P> <P>However, if we're asking for changes to occur, then yes, there is someone with power over you and I.  I can't recode the class.  I can compile data.  I can present cases.  I can reason arguments for what I wish to see.  If those persons who have the power and authority to enact those changes I desire like what they see, then my goal is met.  If not, then I'm just wasting my time.  </P> <P>Therefore, I tend to do what I can to try to lower the chances of wasting my time.  That means making sure I present my facts and observations as correctly as I personally can, trying to avoid personal attacks and needless mudslinging, and doing what I can to avoid creating a confrontational tone with those persons who can actually enact changes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>The ones with the "power" are the ones capable of making desired changes.  If you can produce your own Templar class changes on your character on your server, then I'm impressed.  </P> <P>However, if we're asking for changes to occur, then yes, there is someone with power over you and I.  I can't recode the class.  I can compile data.  I can present cases.  I can reason arguments for what I wish to see.  If those persons who have the power and authority to enact those changes I desire like what they see, then my goal is met.  If not, then I'm just wasting my time.  </P> <P>Therefore, I tend to do what I can to try to lower the chances of wasting my time.  That means making sure I present my facts and observations as correctly as I personally can, trying to avoid personal attacks and needless mudslinging, and doing what I can to avoid creating a confrontational tone with those persons who can actually enact changes.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well come February, EQ2 wont be the only big kid out there anymore will it?

[Kayle]

<P>SoE can read, can't they?  What makes you think they need YOU to present anything? You, who were the one who started all these "debates" by demanding proof of every observation a player ever made on these boards.  Frankly, if you played more and posted less you may have seen what they were talking about.</P> <P>And there is NO power over me.  If they keep it like it is, I leave, that's it.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <P>And there is NO power over me.  If they keep it like it is, I leave, that's it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's certainly an option.</P> <P>Just realize that SOE holds the cards here.  If you don't like the cards you're seeing, then you go to another table.  If you want to see different cards though, you're going to have to find a way to communicate that's going to get heard. There's a great deal of attacks on this forum specifically - against other players and the developers both.  Strictly speaking, this doesn't seem to be the best way to go about accomplishing such goals as many here seem to indicate they have.  </P> <P>To recap:  If you don't care about changes, then there's nothing to worry about.  If you want to give the changes you want to see enacted brought about, then it stands to reason that you attempt to present those changes in a way that will likely gain the correct response.</P>

[Gcha]

<P>Found a dead thread to start the lectures up again on, did ya.  Time to put a stop to this Raijiin.  Here you have a perfect example.</P> <P>BTW before you start selling tickets for the Productive Communication Lecture Series, you might want to learn how to communicate effectively with *anybody* around here.  Your track record around here ain't exactly impressive <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Also, you're a little confused about some things.  WE are the ones paying here.  I know this is a tough concept but on this planet the people selling something generally need to worry about pleasing the people buying.</P>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <P>Also, you're a little confused about some things.  WE are the ones paying here.  I know this is a tough concept but on this planet the people selling something generally need to worry about pleasing the people buying.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BOOYAH!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lates</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kayle]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <P>And there is NO power over me.  If they keep it like it is, I leave, that's it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's certainly an option.</P> <P>Just realize that SOE holds the cards here.  If you don't like the cards you're seeing, then you go to another table.  If you want to see different cards though, you're going to have to find a way to communicate that's going to get heard. There's a great deal of attacks on this forum specifically - against other players and the developers both.  Strictly speaking, this doesn't seem to be the best way to go about accomplishing such goals as many here seem to indicate they have. </P> <P>To recap:  If you don't care about changes, then there's nothing to worry about.  If you want to give the changes you want to see enacted brought about, then it stands to reason that you attempt to present those changes in a way that will likely gain the correct response.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That was my whole point.  That there is no 'powers that be', as you put it.  The perceived power you are talking about is a mental state of mind.  Similar to the type of 'power' some guilds think they have over their members.  That type of mental power only exists for as long as the member puts up with being dissatisfied.  Once the member leaves, the guild has no power over them whatsoever.  Their rules and charters mean nothing to that individual any longer.  That guild has lost any perceived power and probably a good chunk of their own reputation with that person.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then there is business power.  The person who has that is the one who holds the money.  If I hold the money, I have the perceived power.  If you want my money, you produce a product I will buy and as with this game, subsequently rent for a monthly fee.  I'm still the one paying the money, so you still have to produce a quality product.  If you do, I continue to give you money.  If you change that product's quality during the time I'm subscribing to it, then it's YOUR reputation that falls, not mine.  If I cease to continue to pay, you not only lose the money on the subscription fees, you lose your credibility with me also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you quoted from Blackguard is his stance on dealing with angry customers.  It wouldn't appear to me he entertains angry customers.  However, being a six-year customer myself with this company, I know full well that an angry customer is one that believes he is being ignored.  If a customer knows the answer will be NO, he will probably just leave and not hang around the shop demanding they produce what he wants.  But if the customer thinks there is a chance, he may or may not sit and wait.  Ultimately, the more time that wears on, the more impatient the customer will become.  It's not uncommon to see impatient customers loudly demanding to speak to a supervisor or simply walk out the door and write off that company.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's what this comes down to.  Either they start a dialogue or they're going to see people make a decision.  They hold no cards they can WIN with.  You may think they do, but business sense says that customers do not hang around forever waiting for a supervisor to touch base with them.  The player folds and the game is over for all but who remain seated at the table.  When the only one still sitting is the dealer, I fail to see what good that will do him when the next table has a good game going on.  He loses business.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE's best move at this point would be to say something - similar to what Raijinn has tried to do for us and I believe I did thank him for that.  Beyond Raijinn however, they need to tell us publically they are considering x,y, and z options or they don't intend to do anything at this time -- or, that they would LIKE consolidated feedback to review.  They haven't even done that.  That's all these people are asking for.  They are under no obligation to tell them how to design the type of product they are interested in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trust me, they KNOW what the concerns are better then you or I do.  I'm quite confident they are aware of what is working and what is not.  It doesn't matter whether if it's 'working as intended'.  It matters if it's working to the satisfaction of the majority of customers they need in order to establish a profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therefore, arrogance has no place in this discussion.  They asked for our opinions when they submitted the revamped game (do you need a quote? I read that solicitation, I'm quite sure).  What muddled the feedback they asked for, were the posts constantly challenging the opinions given.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In conclusion, you were among the people who contested many of the opinions given here.  In fact, I believe you were the loudest.  On a personal level, you challenged everything I wrote (here and elsewhere), going so far as to look up my posts and gather your friends to back you on the attacks and have them do the same.  Yet you say you don't condone personal attacks.  Ok so, 6 years of playing a templar and I come here to be told by you to go relearn my class upon the first post I make, but that's not to be taken personally?  That's not quite how dialogue works, Kendricke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, months later, after more and more come in and say the same which you disagreed with initially, you decide to step up to the plate and be the person who delivers those opinions to SoE.  /blink!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Without an apology or even a statement that you were wrong in doing the above, you now tell us that you're qualified to deliver suggestions as to what is in the Templar's best interest and ... tell us the manner in which it needs to be delivered, too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you tell me.  Why am I in utter awe after watching all these things develope as they have?  Do you even think that MAYBE you were deserving of some of the retaliation you received?  And don't you feel that perhaps if you didn't confront every complaint that was initially presented here, that somehow, this topic could have all been avoided?</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>There's a difference between an "angry customer" and a "belligerent customer".  Be angry.  Be upset.  That's fine and to be expected if you're not happy with a service.  However, when you cross that line and start consistently and intentionally attacking those providing the service, there's an issue.  SOE isn't a faceless corporation.  Treating the developers as if they are mindless bean counters or uneducated, uncaring dimwits isn't likely to earn much positive attention.</P> <P>We really are our own worst enemy.  On the whole, Templars have lots of ideas and issues they want addressed.  Yet, the majority of those same Templars seem to think that the best way to get those issues addressed is by attacking the very people who they want to address the issues.  In lieu of actual developers, those who seem to be defending the decisions made by the developers are attacked in their stead.  Does this really, really seem like the best way to get the issues addressed?</P> <P>As far as "retaliation", that's typically a word reserved for defending against attack.  I'm not attacking individuals.  I attack ideas.  I attack arguments.  I point out inconsistencies.  I challenge assumptions.  I ask questions.  Find an attack against you Kaylena.  For every one you could find from me (if you find any at all), I'm certain I could find a dozen or more in return.  Is that "retaliation"?  Is that "eye for an eye"?  Even so, would that make it right?  What's the point? </P> <P>Really...what's the point?  For the sake of argument, assume that all I did with every post was attack you.  What does attacking me in "retaliation" prove?  What does it accomplish?  Am I supposed to be offended?  Hurt?  Upset?  By what?  Someone on a message board doesn't like me?  You're not the first person to take such a stance.  You won't be the last.</P> <P>I'm arrogant.  I admit it.  I'm also frequently condescending, self-righteous, stubborn, outspoken, and zealous.  So what?  What does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China?  If I was the most vile, vehement, vitriolic spewing specimen upon these forums...so what?  Does it affect what I say?  Does it make my points incorrect?  What if I were horribly deformed?  What if I were a leper?  Does that disprove my arguments?  What if I had only one eye?  What if I were deaf?  Does that make my arguments suddenly incorrect?</P> <P>My own members frequently refer to me as cold, humorless, and aloof.  That doesnt' mean they don't think I run a good guild.  It doesn't mean I'm a bad guildmaster...or a bad player...or even a bad person.  Even if I was a bad person...it's irrelevant.</P> <P>So continue attacking me all you want.  It doesn't matter.  "Retaliate" all you want for perceived slights and imagined insults.  It doesn't amount to a hill of beans in regards to the issues. </P> <P>I've stated...clearly...that developers told me to my face that some types of posts get ignored and others get attention.  I'm attacked by a small handfull of Templars here for making the statement.  It doesn't mean the statements untrue.  It doesn't mean the developers didn't say it.  It doesn't mean I didn't hear it.  It just means some players were upset with me and blinded themselves to hearing what was said.  I've quoted developers stating..again...why some posts get noticed and others get ignored.  Again, instead of acknowledging that this might be important...the attacks are made once again.  Good job on that.</P> <P>Here's what happens when I see an attack:  I report it.  That's typically it.  I don't go to a secret room with the rest of the "we are fine brigade" back at "W.A.F" headquarters and plot out "retaliatory" strikes.  We don't get together in PM and plan out assaults on the forums.  In fact, there is no "we".  I've never so much as spoken to Supernova17, or Radar-X, or whoever else is supposed to be in this "brigade" I keep getting accused of belonging to.  However, if it helps, I think I found a picture of what it might look like if we WERE to get together for such a purpose:</P> <P align=center><IMG src="http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare7/strangelove5/Warroom.jpg"></P> <P align=center> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P align=left>In this artist's rendering, you can see what it might look like if the "we are fine" brigade got together to plot out our newest rebuttals.  It's a grand conspiracy.  I mean, every Templar KNOWS that it takes 5 minutes to solo a single blue solo con target.  However, we can't let that sort of information get out to the public.  My god, man - do you realize the consequences if the public knew the <EM>truth</EM>! Of course we have to lie about soloing blue targets in 45 seconds. </P> <P align=left>Likewise, we KNOW that Glory of Combat is worthless.  Parses we provided to back up fictional groups where our healing was adequate without ever casting spells were meticulously hand typed out in order to obscure the truth.  We can't let the public know what's really happening.  Great scott, man - what if Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public found out that the spell's actually worthless?!  We can't have that, can we?</P> <P align=left>It's obvious that we must continue our clandestine spin machine.  If we don't, people might figure out that I'm actually a public account actually played by several developers.  I'm really Blackguard.  There you have it.  The secret's out.  Kendricke is merely a fake name I've been using to cleverly protect the interests of the mother country, er, company.  I must give my all to see to it that we keep players from learning the truth.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left>Seriously, I wonder what folks think sometimes with all the labels and attacks.  What possible reason do I have for purposefully resisting changes that might really be good for the Templar class or the game overall?  Does anyone really believe I'm out to get Templars?  Obviously I want what's best for the class I've been playing for over seven years in various games.  It doesn't mean that my views on what's best or even what's right is going to mesh with what others feel is best or right.  It certainly doesn't mean I'm just going to ignore statements made that I feel require some form of response.  Even then, what I think deserves a response and what others feel deserves a response is going to differ.</P> <P align=left>That's really it though.  I say things that people dislike...or at least in ways that people dislike.  So instead of responding to what I've said, the bullseye is shifted to the person.  Because developers aren't posting here, people turn their sights to the players who seem closest to the developers. </P> <P align=left>Yes, I want developers posting here.  However, I'm not going to delude myself into believing that a developer post - positive or not - is going to be met with pure gratitude and thanks.  No matter what a developer states in here, it's going to draw fire.  It doesn't matter what is said - people will complain and complain vehemently.  Personally, I think that's a big reason they're avoiding saying anything here.  Historically speaking, the Templar forums aren't exactly a bastion of respect and constructive posting.  For the love of all that's holy...I tried posting an issues compilation post and I was immediately jumped on by critics who suggested I was trying to steal Caethre's glory.  Does that seem like a constructive atmosphere to anyone else here?</P> <P align=left>The cattiness has to stop.  It has to.  It's not a bloody competition.  It's a discussion forum...for discussion.  That doesn't mean rainbows and unicorns all the time...but it certainly doesn't mean chokeholds and verbal body slams either.  Find a way to get over it; get past it; get around it; get by however you can no matter what "it" is.  We're not doing ourselves any favors by continuing the confrontations.</P> <P align=left> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <p>There's a difference between an "angry customer" and a "belligerent customer".  Be angry.  Be upset.  That's fine and to be expected if you're not happy with a service.  However, when you cross that line and start consistently and intentionally attacking those providing the service, there's an issue.  SOE isn't a faceless corporation.  Treating the developers as if they are mindless bean counters or uneducated, uncaring dimwits isn't likely to earn much positive attention.</p><hr></blockquote>Again you are so far from the truth. This all started with people being angry. After weeks of pure silence from the devs, what can an intelligent person expect? Attacks on devs are natural cause to their silence. If they actually were providing a service, people would settle for that. But since they seem to be totally ignoring the problem, they are just begging to be attacked personally. SoE should definately either hire actual developers who know their stuff, or if they think they have some, fire those and hire new ones who can actually interact with customers.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>There's a difference between an "angry customer" and a "belligerent customer".  Be angry.  Be upset.  That's fine and to be expected if you're not happy with a service.  However, when you cross that line and start consistently and intentionally attacking those providing the service, there's an issue.  SOE isn't a faceless corporation.  Treating the developers as if they are mindless bean counters or uneducated, uncaring dimwits isn't likely to earn much positive attention.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again you are so far from the truth. This all started with people being angry. After weeks of pure silence from the devs, what can an intelligent person expect? Attacks on devs are natural cause to their silence. If they actually were providing a service, people would settle for that. But since they seem to be totally ignoring the problem, they are just begging to be attacked personally.<BR><BR>SoE should definately either hire actual developers who know their stuff, or if they think they have some, fire those and hire new ones who can actually interact with customers.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok, you feel the developers aren't doing their jobs because they aren't posting what you personally want to hear on a message board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We've already heard from a member of the "dev team" who stated that issues are being looked into.  That wasn't enough, was it.  You want specifics.  More than that, you want specifics in areas that are important to you.  The developers aren't posting what you want to hear...so you're calling for them to be fired.  How is that constructive? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better yet, what if they actually followed your advice?  What if they turned around and fired developers because they don't post enough?  What then?  Get a batch of developers who post but don't work?  How much are you willing to pay for computer scientists who are also good with public communications?  What if after all of that, the communications you get isn't what you personally want to hear?  Should they fire the new batch of developers and start anew?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forget the rules of the forums that state that personal attacks are off-limits.  Forget that it's not constructive.  Let's follow the logic that any time I don't get an answer on an issue I have for an extended amount of time, I'm allowed to personally attack someone.  At my work, I've been waiting on a review for some time.  Yes, we're overloaded with projects and I'm juggling several dozen customers not to mention what my director is working on.  No, because he hasn't had the time to give me a review, I should march into his office and call him names, right?  Obviously, that's the best tactic to get what I want, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have a fellow coworker holding up your workload because he's waiting on an approval?  Call him names.  That'll get him moving on it.  Tired of those contractors taking too long to refinish your house?  Call them names - that'll motivate them.  Can't stand the fact that you're still waiting for your order at the steakhouse?  Call the waitress names.  She's really just waiting for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see where the developers have been "begging for it" for a while now.  Obviously the lack of response on the Templar forums means they never read this forum, right?  I mean, it's not like they could read it and just not say anything, right?  Obviously we should goad them into giving us answers by calling them names and saying they should be fired.  Yep, that'll get the answer we want, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <div>Ok, you feel the developers aren't doing their jobs because they aren't posting what you personally want to hear on a message board.</div><hr></blockquote>Oh boy, you gotta do a lot better than that mr. Strawman. I am dying to hear any kind of answer from devs. As it is, I haven't heard even anything I dont want to hear. There has been zero posts about the devs plans for templars. PS. I generally ignore all the ranting and strawmen you do in the rest of you posts so dont bother for my account.</span><div></div>

[CasieStarfi]

<P>hehehehe too funny.   </P> <P>k, let me parse this thread real fast...</P> <P>signal: 100[0]</P> <P>noise: 23434645645234234235677345[0]</P> <P> </P> <P>Seriously Kendricke, I think you take some of this stuff waaay to serious.  Any positive, constructive message you may have gets completely lost in all that other stuff you dish out.  =p </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Big Da]

<DIV>I think everyone in here just needs a hug .... come on everyone in on this...... HHHHHHUUUUUUUUUGGGG</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now doesnt that feel better!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It could be worse you could be a fury with all that AMAZING dps and average healing! ..... Just bait for the Fury trolls that i miss :smileytongue: they need to come here for a hug too!</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, you feel the developers aren't doing their jobs because they aren't posting what you personally want to hear on a message board.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh boy, you gotta do a lot better than that mr. Strawman. I am dying to hear any kind of answer from devs. As it is, I haven't heard even anything I dont want to hear. There has been zero posts about the devs plans for templars.<BR><BR>PS. I generally ignore all the ranting and strawmen you do in the rest of you posts so dont bother for my account.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Moderators are on the Dev Team.  Raijinn has stated that he's taken concerns back to the rest of the team.  You've received "an" answer, but not the answer you want to hear. </P> <P> </P>

[BenEm]

Worry not all Ken will be playing with himself soon . He can parse his threads and argue with himself :smileywink:

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>There's a difference between an "angry customer" and a "belligerent customer".  Be angry.  Be upset.  That's fine and to be expected if you're not happy with a service.  However, when you cross that line and start consistently and intentionally attacking those providing the service, there's an issue.  SOE isn't a faceless corporation.  Treating the developers as if they are mindless bean counters or uneducated, uncaring dimwits isn't likely to earn much positive attention.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again you are so far from the truth. This all started with people being angry. After weeks of pure silence from the devs, what can an intelligent person expect? Attacks on devs are natural cause to their silence. If they actually were providing a service, people would settle for that. But since they seem to be totally ignoring the problem, they are just begging to be attacked personally.<BR><BR>SoE should definately either hire actual developers who know their stuff, or if they think they have some, fire those and hire new ones who can actually interact with customers.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok, you feel the developers aren't doing their jobs because they aren't posting what you personally want to hear on a message board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We've already heard from a member of the "dev team" who stated that issues are being looked into.  That wasn't enough, was it.  You want specifics.  More than that, you want specifics in areas that are important to you.  The developers aren't posting what you want to hear...so you're calling for them to be fired.  How is that constructive? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better yet, what if they actually followed your advice?  What if they turned around and fired developers because they don't post enough?  What then?  Get a batch of developers who post but don't work?  How much are you willing to pay for computer scientists who are also good with public communications?  What if after all of that, the communications you get isn't what you personally want to hear?  Should they fire the new batch of developers and start anew?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forget the rules of the forums that state that personal attacks are off-limits.  Forget that it's not constructive.  Let's follow the logic that any time I don't get an answer on an issue I have for an extended amount of time, I'm allowed to personally attack someone.  At my work, I've been waiting on a review for some time.  Yes, we're overloaded with projects and I'm juggling several dozen customers not to mention what my director is working on.  No, because he hasn't had the time to give me a review, I should march into his office and call him names, right?  Obviously, that's the best tactic to get what I want, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have a fellow coworker holding up your workload because he's waiting on an approval?  Call him names.  That'll get him moving on it.  Tired of those contractors taking too long to refinish your house?  Call them names - that'll motivate them.  Can't stand the fact that you're still waiting for your order at the steakhouse?  Call the waitress names.  She's really just waiting for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see where the developers have been "begging for it" for a while now.  Obviously the lack of response on the Templar forums means they never read this forum, right?  I mean, it's not like they could read it and just not say anything, right?  Obviously we should goad them into giving us answers by calling them names and saying they should be fired.  Yep, that'll get the answer we want, right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No. The problem is the Developers have posted NOTHING on these boards EVER that I can recall. Feel free to prove me wrong though. I KNOW they havent been around here since LU13.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <>Moderators are on the Dev Team.  Raijinn has stated that he's taken concerns back to the rest of the team.  You've received "an" answer, but not the answer you want to hear. <> <div></div><hr></blockquote>So you mean that devs read only the posts someone reports for personal attacks or flaming? Or then 'information chain' is just broken between devs and moderators.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>Believe what you will.  With every attack, insult, or needlessly confrontational post, you only give volume to the voices you may not want to be heard.  If you want to be heard by the developers, I highly suggest following the direct advice they give on the forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am I heard?  I don't know.  I do know that they likely aren't going to care whether or not I "zinged" Timaarit today.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>I'm going to shut this thread down as it has degenerated into a flame war.</DIV>