Doesnt this bring a tear to your eye

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=40346" target=_blank><SPAN>quetzaqotl</SPAN></A><BR><SPAN>Guardian<BR>Posts: 778<BR>Registered: 11-13-2004 </SPAN><BR><IMG height=8 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=150 border=0><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=40346" target=_blank></A><BR> <P><SPAN>Reply <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=3889#M3889" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>8</FONT></A> of 19 </SPAN><BR><IMG height=6 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1><BR><SPAN>Viewed 478 times<BR></SPAN></P><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1 border=0><BR> <DIV>I agree there should be a new topic to get the attention of the devs a nice easy to read with evidence (aka pictures) and parsing of our heals /dots etc.</DIV> <DIV>A nice clear list without too much distracting stuff which is only cosmetic etc.</DIV> <DIV>I would like to post soemthing like that but am not lvl 50 am lvl 43 and I m not that great with parsing stuff and my native language isnt english etc.</DIV> <DIV>So if someone would pls write a good topic it would be greatly appreciated, and we as fellow furies should react to it with constructive posts not with posts which dont add to the topic.</DIV> <P></P> <DIV>Athinu Elmshade<BR>Lying In Wait<BR>Grobb<BR>=================<BR>HUG A TREE OR DIE</DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>02-26-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:02 AM</SPAN> </SPAN> <P><BR><BR> </P></DIV> <P> </P> <P>Was going thru some old posts for old time's sake about fury spells being broken and furies being unbalanced and found this post (one of many) I made 8 (!)months ago just wanted to share this.</P> <P>Maybe you guys could show some respect and write up a decent constructive topic and compare/show what is broken and stop bashing other classes.</P> <P>thank you.</P> <P> </P> <P>ps. I forgot to add after months of letting soe know what our problems were we got 1(!) message by blackguard on our thread ill quote him: "good thread!" thats all he said and thats what we had to take for an answer for months till we got a fix isnt that funny, yep it sure is.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[CasieStarfi]

<P>I'm not sure what the point to your post is quetzaqotl.  That templars shouldn't post so much about thier issues / concerns in thier own forum section?  What an odd post to make, lol.  </P> <P>Anyway, my best friends in game are a fury, a warden, and an inquisitor.  We all rock together and have a lot of fun!  When they have issues about thier class, I support them.  </P> <P>I definitly don't go around saying, "Yeah, well back in my day...  we had to play broken for 9 months!  We didn't even have heals, we had bandaids and used whiskey to clean out wounds!  Developers wouldn't even talk to us!  But did we ever complain?  Heck no!  We suffered quietly and liked it!"</P> <P>Hehehe I guess your post just reminded me alot of my cranky 89 year old uncle Raliegh.  =p</P> <P> </P>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>ps. I forgot to add after months of letting soe know what our problems were we got 1(!) message by blackguard on our thread ill quote him: "good thread!" thats all he said and thats what we had to take for an answer for months till we got a fix isnt that funny, yep it sure is.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Good thing Vanguard will be out before the next 8 months fly by and we won't have to worry about waiting for that "1(1)" message by Blackguard.  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truly, I don't how you had the patience!  I would NEVER play a bad class that made me as miserable as you sound for 8 whole months.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>The reason i posted this is because im getting sick and tired of people just assuming things and dont back it up with actual info.</P> <P>Ive read on the templar forums alone that furies supposedly do 1.5 x 2x more dmg 4x more dmg 5x more dmg and heal equally or heal for 10% less than templars or 20% </P> <P>In another post someone says templars have no utility and people scream to SOE to add utility to the templar class after some time templars say again: utility is fine were balanced but now we want more dps!</P> <P>BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>And nice that I remind you of your uncle I dont care its all about not bashing a class that had to wait a long time on a fix and try to take that away from em. <P>it's a bout some respect but whatever some people have it others dont I guess</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 PM</span>

[bobdbutcherer]

<P>Ok you want numbers, examples?  Try this one:</P> <P>I'm a 54 templar, not quite uber equipped, but equipped very well...lol envy of some palidans even.  My AE nuke = Rays of Faith adept1 which does just below 300 damage to the encounter.  I have a druid guildie who with their lvl 34 training choice (yes i realize this is a master2 spell, but it is also a master2 spell that is more than 10 levels below my nuke) that they can use on the same encounter and hit the mobs for 800+ each.  I could understand if there was this difference between a 34 templar and 34 fury, but for crying out loud i'm 20 freaking levels above that...20 and just to make sure you recognize that this wasn't a typo, that was lvl 54 templar nuking encounter for 300-; 34 fury nuking for 800+</P> <P>Bit lopsided if you consider that when that fury reaches level 54 they are going to be healing for the same (according to SOE), yet I'm more than positive that they will be AE nuking for far more than 800.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Now regarding healing, can we spot heal for more than a fury?  Yes, but a fury's "spot" heal will wind up healing for the same (if what i have read is correct) after all the tics go off.  Yes, we handle the burst a bit better, but I believe that fury's also can cast their "spot" heals quicker than we can.  The difference between group reactive and group HoTs, seems to be a very touchy subject.  Each have their strong points.  In a situation where many people are taking damage or even a mob that uses AE every once in awhile, I'll take a fury's HoTs any day because for the same cost you get to heal everyone, most likely back to full health.  Where as a templar's reactives are only going to heal the person (MT generally) that is still taking damage after the AE shot.  What does this equate to, well we have to now either, spot heal the rest of them, or use the ever expensive (yet more effective than before) group heal.  On the other hand in a situation where a mob is hitting only one target then yes, our reactives are far more effecient as we will heal 9 times for x and you will heal 5 (i think) times for x.</P> <P> </P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>its funny how people make it sound like healers are a combination of dmg and heals.</P> <P>a group reactive in a normal setup and with a priest actually curing ae dots/effects is vastly superior to a group hot.</P> <P>Ive got 1 single target hot and one group hot both last for 10 secs </P> <P>I dont have heal (or other defensive) procs like templars have </P> <P>furies arent healing for the same as templars do not even after lvl 54 where has soe claimed that we would?</P> <P>Our "spot heal" I think you mean back into the fray heals for about the same as a templars "spot heal" but a furies' tank has to be in the orange for it to fire off  the big heal.</P> <P>Also dont templars get the same ring of fire esque spell furies get that must do nice dmg to groups I think eh but yes furies are experts in group dmg if they go for dmg I have one slow casting hi hitting expensive nuke 2 dots and 1 ae nuke I think templars get multiple solo nukes eh?</P> <P>You also get a bonus against undead while we get a bonus to elementals funny how there are only like 3 elemental mobs in game while the place is crawling with undead.</P> <P>And you debuff divine I think eh we can't  debuff any resist.</P> <P>yes furies do more dmg than templars but that is balanced by you having heal (and def) procs having heavy armor and superior heals also I think your utility the utility a lot of templars were crying a bout is of equal or even better quality than mine as invis and sow can be bought for little money while a complete in combat rez, a mez and an extra call home cat be bought (might ve missed some other stuff you guys get but whatever).</P> <P>Also maybe its tru that templars "only" heal for 20% more than a fury can but you have to consider power usage to as we drain faster than templars having to cast "spot" heals more often and in the end what is more valuable for a healer: heals or dps you can t trade those 1:1 (also my int is close to 300 solo buffed how high is yours?)</P> <P> </P> <P>But still waiting on a good comparison post comparing not only heals and dps but also buffs/debuffs etc. seen some work on it on a different topic so thats cool.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 PM</span>

[Xerxess]

<DIV>I am sooo lost on why you posted this here? I dunno if your trying to stir up another flame war between furies and Templars or what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next time you post in here and tell us to back up our claims the least YOU could do is post some constructive for us to back up what you want us to back...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>well ive said before why i posted this so please scroll up it wont hurt you much ive been reading the forums a lot and seen many exaggerated and untrue posts on here about furies vs templars didnt start this whole thing think theres even a topic named that way on this forum.</DIV> <DIV>I dont have to post anything constructive for you to post on I posted this because in the topics discussing templar issues I see a lot of unconstructive posts and a lot of pointing of fingers without having the right info/nrs to back it up so please be constructive on those posts.</DIV> <DIV>I made this post as Ive said cause I have been going thru old threads dating back from nov and thought how funny it was that the approach some classes to fixing a problem they might be having  is so different than the approach furies took.</DIV> <DIV>A little trip down memory lane I guess was just trying to let you guys remember that the fix which had been promised us took a long time to arrive and when it did were getting beat with it over our heads by other classes which is nasty imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>ps. <P>  <P>And yes im all for templars getting more dps while soloing (like some said in form of some pet for instance) but to add dps without paying the price for it templars would again become overpowered at least thats what I think.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:58 PM</span>

[SatinyCh]

<DIV>I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about. I outheal furies 10x on raids, and our fury is what you'd call a "good" fury also. We each have our heals all at adept 3, and I still beat him everytime. It's all about having the right healer for the right situation. There are some raids where we'd prefer to have a fury in place of a templar or a defiler. /shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are you doing on our boards anyway?</DIV>

[Kayle]

You cannot measure the healing power of either.  SoE has to do it.  There are too many variables.  You're talking constant healing vs. contingent healing.  This is a stupid argument again.  Unless you can create the mob and control the variables, you don't have the exact numbers and you never will.

[CasieStarfi]

This thread is funny.  =D

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Well my only intention was to remind you guys and I can post on any board, I want just read a lot of bs on this here forum so decided to post this here.</P> <P>What can I say Im a nostalgic person I guess its just a message to remind you guys what mess we were in and that perhaps you can think about that before you post untrue things and try to get the community all over furies.</P> <P>As we showed you the same respect back in the day.</P> <P>Weve had this same thing happen with wardens vs furies thats has died down luckily now its time for templars to back off from furies sure comparing is alright but please back it up as Ive seen many different numbers ranging from 1.5X - 5X more dmg we supposedly do and 0%-20% less healing we do and us having superior utility to us having the same utility.</P> <P>So pls dont try to blur a valid comparison between classes by unparsed (or even incorrect) data.</P> <P>Thats all what I intended and Ill leave it at that, I think I made myself clear enough and leave your boards (for) now.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 AM</span>

[Xerxess]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Well my only intention was to remind you guys and I can post on any board, I want just read a lot of bs on this here forum so decided to post this here.</P> <P>What can I say Im a nostalgic person I guess its just a message to remind you guys what mess we were in and that perhaps you can think about that before you post untrue things and try to get the community all over furies.</P> <P>As we showed you the same respect back in the day.</P> <P>Weve had this same thing happen with wardens vs furies thats has died down luckily now its time for templars to back off from furies sure comparing is alright but please back it up as Ive seen many different numbers ranging from 1.5X - 5X more dmg we supposedly do and 0%-20% less healing we do and us having superior utility to us having the same utility.</P> <P>So pls dont try to blur a valid comparison between classes by unparsed (or even incorrect) data.</P> <P>Thats all what I intended and Ill leave it at that, I think I made myself clear enough and leave your boards (for) now.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know this a lot of strife going on in our boards and even said yourself you were tired of reading it but yet you post useless information on our boards that solves nothing. All you try to do was start another on going flame war between the groups.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now that you have left our boards all I can say is....Finally!</P> <P><FONT size=1>Pesky Furies</FONT></P>

[Ashenshug]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Well my only intention was to remind you guys and I can post on any board, I want just read a lot of bs on this here forum so decided to post this here.</P> <P>What can I say Im a nostalgic person I guess its just a message to remind you guys what mess we were in and that perhaps you can think about that before you post untrue things and try to get the community all over furies.</P> <P>As we showed you the same respect back in the day.</P> <P>Weve had this same thing happen with wardens vs furies thats has died down luckily now its time for templars to back off from furies sure comparing is alright but please back it up as Ive seen many different numbers ranging from 1.5X - 5X more dmg we supposedly do and 0%-20% less healing we do and us having superior utility to us having the same utility.</P> <P>So pls dont try to blur a valid comparison between classes by unparsed (or even incorrect) data.</P> <P>Thats all what I intended and Ill leave it at that, I think I made myself clear enough and leave your boards (for) now.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Tell you what. When the day comes that SOE writes in the patch notes that Templars can solo/nuke as well as Furies to keep things in balance, keep quiet and stay on your side of the fence. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And honestly, you can't expect to gather wood, start the fire, and hand us the lighter fluid and not expect us to flame you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*kicks*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get outta heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere.</DIV>

[Sute]

<P>If i have to wait 8 months for a "fix" that SOE broke in the first place, I will be outta here. Trust me. I'm not waiting 8 months for a fix of any kind or a word from adev saying they do indeed think theres a problem and it will be looked into, with some kinda time frame, a customer does not deserves that.</P> <P>I did not make this problem for templars, i should not have to put up with it either, for 8 months.</P> <P>As for giving them info of whats wrong with the classes in the game, simple reply to that....Put me on the payroll and i will do just that. I am a paying customer, i dont want to work for SOE's Q/A dept.</P> <p>Message Edited by Sutexi on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <p>its funny how people make it sound like healers are a combination of dmg and heals.</p><hr></blockquote>Well they are. Exept for templars.</span><div></div>

[dancemice]

<DIV>You want proof? I'm grinding a druid up because it's just so much pain playing a templar.</DIV> <DIV>While it's not super high level yet. I can 1 shot elementals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please. tell me when in thier career. That templars/clerics can ever <STRONG>1 shot undead</STRONG> - It just ain't happening.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far i've seen. The druid heals better. It does damage better. The only thing the "templar" has better at this stage is the sheer amount of buffs it can toss on a group.</DIV> <DIV>-B-</DIV>

[bobdbutcherer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Weve had this same thing happen with wardens vs furies thats has died down luckily now its time for templars to back off from furies sure comparing is alright but please back it up as Ive seen many different numbers ranging from 1.5X - 5X more dmg we supposedly do and 0%-20% less healing we do and us having superior utility to us having the same utility.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I love people like this.  You know the type, they come in and say give me proof, numbers, parses, something to back-up your claims.  I then provide what they ask for (read my post up above regarding a fury 20 levels below me more than doubling my nukes) and then they come back and reiterate again, "please back it up".  Funny, I thought I just did?  Guess hard, true numbers don't count.   Hmmm, don't know how much more proof you need?  We had one mention of a templar starting a fury (so someone who can attest to both sides).  That would be called field work, i.e. proof.  Hmmm, disregard.  The truth of the matter is as has already been stated, people like this, despite their claims that they want the flame wars to end, are just looking for an arguement.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Another big arguement, and I'll agree with the OP on this, is that we (templars) can't agree on whether or not we have utility.  So here is my disection of our utility.  Bearing in mind that these are not buffs as that is of a different topic and could have a thread all of its own (probably has 7 by now i'm sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>(Starting at level 38-50 as this is the area of spells that I have used for the longest time)</P> <UL> <LI>38 Reproach -- Debuff that reduces physical mitigation</LI> <LI>39 Prostrate -- Stun (to my knowledge does not break, lasts 7sec)</LI> <LI>41 Harmony -- AE pacify/hate reducer (any form of pacify breaks when any damage is dealt) 5min recast</LI> <LI>46 Mark of Kings -- Debuff that reduces divine resistance and has the chance to return a small HoT to anyone meleeing the target</LI> <LI>48 Atoning Fate -- When the target of this spell dies a group heal goes off (NOTE:  This spell is currently broken, if a proc kills the target, then the heal does not go off, thus doing nothing)</LI> <LI>49 Involuntary Curate -- Impairment that has a chance to trigger a reactive (one shot) heal that also removes trauma.</LI> <LI>49 Sign of Infirmitry -- Single target pacify</LI></UL> <P>This IMHO isn't bad utility.  It lacks a bit of flavor and is fairly one dimensional though.  Problems that I have with it:</P> <UL> <LI>Reproach used to debuff physical, mental, divine, and magic mitigation/resistances, by about 3x the amount it does now.  The difference in damage then was a nuke that was doing 250 did 300+ and my crushing swings would jump from 30 to about 55 or so.  Now casting this causes my nukes that do 200 to do 200 and my crushing swings go from 45 to 55 (new gear).  To make up for the lack of resistance debuff I now have to cast a second spell...</LI> <LI>Mark of Kings, the amount of divine (only divine) resistance that this debuffs is no where near what used to get debuffed.  Instead of nuking for 200 i will nuke for 220.  Couple that with the fact i now have to cast two spells in order to get 1/3 the debuffing that I used to get for casting one.</LI> <LI>Sign of infirmitry used to be an encounter STR debuff, and a good one at that.  Now its a single target pacify, duration is about 10s i believe with a recast of about 12 (might be off a little, but i know the recast is longer than the duration).  All well and good, but first you have to have people willing to follow the rules of pacify, which are don't hit that mob.  As any enchanter how well that works out.  Secondly as a  healer if i'm having to switch targets to get off a pacify and then back to the MT then I stand the chance of losing the MT.  So this spell has gone from something that I would use on any encounter to something that I use occasionally when i'm soloing.  Another reason I don't use this spell is due to the fact that my specialty heals are designed to work when the tank is taking damage.  If I pacify a target, that equates to one less mob swinging, which also means there is a chance that all my reactives are not going to go off.  Call me crazy, but personally I think pacify is something better desinged for someone who uses HoTs....hmmm know anyone who uses HoTs?  Same type of concept as to why healing a monk can be very taxing as a templar.  If they aren't getting hit, they aren't getting healed.</LI></UL> <P>Do we need a major Utility overhaul?  IMHO, no.  Could we stand some tweaking?  Yes.  Again I bring up that we could use something (an offensive augmentation or something like it) to help with our soloability.  Something that costs one concentration, because unless I've missed something, when I solo, I have exactly 4 concentration slots filled...we need something that we can throw in that 5th slot, that we wouldn't want to use while grouped.</P> <P>Just my 2c</P>

[Kayle]

<DIV>Don't you get it Bob?  He doesn't want his druid nerfed.  He knows how good he has it now and he doesn't want to give up any of it so that they *cough* BALANCE *cough* templars again.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>K I guess i have to explain it even more as I wasnt clear enough for some of you.</P> <P>Of course I dont want my class getting nerfed, weve had to wait on a fix for a very long time and I wouldnt like it if they would touch my now functional class because of people whining over things they don't back up.</P> <P>Also why the hell would I want to start a flame war between templars and furies what good would that be to me??</P> <P>Yes Im happy with my class now, very happy at that tho some little things are not functioning as intended atm but nothing big, I just hope that in other threads you guys would stick with proven facts instead of second hand info or comparing how much easier it is for a lvl 24 to solo compared to a lvl 54 hah thats a good one.</P> <P>Also a healer isnt about dps and heals only if you believe that you are really mistaken, but I guess you dont realize that.</P> <P>Enough is enough do with this what you will and explain my intentions any way you want to, I made my point if you get it or not I dont care do with it what you want.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote: <p>Also why the hell would I want to start a flame war between templars and furies what good would that be to me??</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Since you already started it, why dont you tell us.</span><div></div>

[bobdbutcherer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Of course I dont want my class getting nerfed, weve had to wait on a fix for a very long time and I wouldnt like it if they would touch my now functional class because of people whining over things they don't back up......</P> <P>He goes on to say:</P> <P>Yes Im happy with my class now, very happy at that tho some little things are not functioning as intended atm but nothing big, I just hope that in other threads you guys would stick with proven facts instead of second hand info or comparing how much easier it is for a lvl 24 to solo compared to a lvl 54 hah thats a good one.<BR></P> <HR> <P>Ok, now my interest is peaked.  Although healing and nuking isn't what all a priest is about, it is indeed a large part of it.  You wanted proof...I gave you proof.  Do you seriously think that it is appropriate or balanced for one priest to be able to double the damage of another priest that is 20 levels higher than you?  Better yet, throw the shoe on the other foot.  If you were say a 54 Fury, throwing out your best heals and healing for say 500 on a group heal.  And a templar walked by and at level 34 and through a group heal out and healed everyone for 1000 would you complain?  Would this be balanced?  Oh wait we've already been down this path, hmm how did this end up?  Now let me think....Oh right, now I remember.  It did happen, it was called LU13, where furies were crying about a templar of the same level healing for a couple 100 more than they were. </P> <P>Here is another example, lets say two "fighters" are walking along, a level 34 monk and a level 54 guardian we'll call them.  For fun the 54 guardian throws down his best taunt and the mob charges him.  And just for fun the monk decides to throw down his best taunt.  Suddenly the mob turns and charges the monk instead of the guardian.  And despite his best efforts and spam taunting the guard cannot get the mob to refocus on him.  Now I ask you is this balanced, should a 34 monk be able to generate more than 2x the hate (bering in mind that taunting is not all a fighter is about) of a 54 guardian?  No! </P> <P>So, despite the fact that each of your posts pain me to read, and you are about as clear as milk, I'm really curious what you have to say about one priest more than outdamaging another priest that is 20 levels above them.  You keep crying for proof, and here it is again (and for the last time as I hate redundancy):</P> <P>------------------|<U>34 Fury AE nuke ~ 800 damage  |  54 Templar AE nuke ~ 300 damage|</U>-------------------------------</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>"Also dont templars get the same ring of fire esque spell furies get that must do nice dmg to groups I think eh but yes furies are experts in group dmg if they go for dmg I have one slow casting hi hitting expensive nuke 2 dots and 1 ae nuke I think templars get multiple solo nukes eh?"</P> <P> </P> <DIV>No, we had Consecration in DoF beta but we swapped it with pallies, so before you start telling Templar to backup their claims and check the fact, why dont you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your a [Removed for Content] Athinu, Ive been away from this forum for 3 days and I come back and see you lined all over saying leave the Furies waaa waaa, no one is supporting you, your making yourself look stupid, your making Furies look like whiners.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go away!</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>K I guess i have to explain it even more as I wasnt clear enough for some of you.</P> <P>Of course I dont want my class getting nerfed, weve had to wait on a fix for a very long time and I wouldnt like it if they would touch my now functional class because of people whining over things they don't back up.</P> <P>Also why the hell would I want to start a flame war between templars and furies what good would that be to me??</P> <P>Yes Im happy with my class now, very happy at that tho some little things are not functioning as intended atm but nothing big, I just hope that in other threads you guys would stick with proven facts instead of second hand info or comparing how much easier it is for a lvl 24 to solo compared to a lvl 54 hah thats a good one.</P> <P>Also a healer isnt about dps and heals only if you believe that you are really mistaken, but I guess you dont realize that.</P> <P>Enough is enough do with this what you will and explain my intentions any way you want to, I made my point if you get it or not I dont care do with it what you want.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You came here looking for discussion.   Looks like you got what you were looking for.    The only point I saw you making was ....actually I need somebody to clear that up for me if they could.</P> <P>What would a flamewar do?  You're tossing fury opinion in the Templar forums in hopes that a Dev will see it because they must be nerfing Fury and listening to Templars(they've said so much about it right?).</P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>I didnt post this for discussion I posted this as a reminder to the people whining about a class: that has been broken for a long time when it gets the fixes it needed that maybe pointing fingers and cry nerf isnt the nicest thing to do.</P> <P>The thread's intention was simple: to make some people at least think before bashing a class about what history it has, how many furies left because this game was so unbalanced to us while templars were mr master healer and the nr 1 healer on every server.</P> <P>The only reason was to maybe that the <STRONG>fury bashers</STRONG> could show some respect to a class who had to wait a very long time on a fix and when it got delivered people are constantly saying that furies need to be brought down again.</P> <P>I havent been on these boards for 2 weeks and read up on things maybe my reaction was a bit outdated that could be but theres this negative vibe around.</P> <P>There has been a lot of whining by some people from the templar and warden communities and of course that was to be expected cause the were brought down quite a bit and I can see that really sucks but I dont like the negative approach a lot of people seem to prefer to take: bash a class that finally after waiting patiently (which was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing frustrating) got a fix.</P> <P> </P> <P>All this flamewar starting bs only goes to show what kinda hate there apparently is towards furies as I only made this post so that maybe just maybe some of you would think about trying to get your broken things fixed instead of pointing at furies all the time.</P> <P>Templars have never been a solo class furies always have been a good solo class, why? cause we have the heals and damage (/damage buffs tho we lost a lot of our dmg on buffs we now have like 1 buff only castable on1  person and the other doing 150x3 dmg procs for each group member before i could buff people up with  at least  3 dmg buffs each) yes you have the heals and heals and def buffs (and heavy armor and therefor the superior choice in diff armor).</P> <P>healers arent only about dmg and heals we buff debuff etc too as you should all know.</P> <P>Templars buff people up with defensive [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] while furies buff up with offensive [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] (tho not so much anymore as was before) the loss of some of our dmg buffs has been balanced by giving us some more enhanced dmg ourselves yes we do good dmg but we also dont get heal procs on hit or whatever.</P> <P>K I wont say i  know all the ins and outs of templars but you sure as hell dont know your way around fury land my friend what spell did you get to replace concencrate then?</P> <P>Some people on this board are trying to collect real info and thats great if out of that comes something which is out of whack ok they gotta change that but balancing heals for damage between healers is a tough thing to balance a 1:1 swap for dmg or heals isnt gonna work is it for soloability it would be ok but who would want a fury in group if the damage they do would be 20% more than templars while templars heal for 20% more?</P> <P>And to Az hah Im not a whiner (ooh is kinda funny really you talking about whiners hah you bigmak and tuved prolly own goldmember cards to that club) just someone who liked to leave you guys with a thought do with it what you want my op was in no way flame bait or a start of some discussion or asking for proof why templars arent balanced blabla there are other threads for that and I asked for people to please be constructive on those, it was just that: a thought.</P> <P>In the end I maybe shouldnt made my own thread out of it k maybe I shouldnt have (making it seem more important perhaps). </P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:41 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Why are you still here?</P> <P> </P> <P>Begone!</P>

[quetzaqotl]

Hmm thats a question, maybe thats why Im still here?

[AzraelAzgard]

...

[javis]

The issue is you come in to our boards and generalize the entire Templar population, you are definitely trolling. I dont read every post but from what I have gathered is that most templars are not asking for a Fury nerf. Personally I am happy for the class. Anything to make our guild better I am game for and I never believed in nerfs anyway. I could see if every other post was calling for a nerf, which is not the case. Most are comparing the recent healing balance with the lack of a DPS balance. Templars are horrible at it and while I don't think we should be upgraded to make any difference in a group ( I don't really want to nuke in a group) Alot are asking a bump in our solo ability. Also a point of contention is our "utlity". Personally I think there is a a little class envy but that is to be expected. You should be grateful for your bumps and quit going to another class board and talking smack targetted to the whole of the templars. -Izzy <div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Yes I shouldve said from the start that the please dont bash furies was targetted to the people who bash furies I shouldve been more precise.</P> <P>I might have generalized the whole templar community and Im sorry if I did but the post wasnt a troll you are wrong on that also there have been quite a lot of other classes comming to our boards and they have evry right just as I have posting my thoughts on the templar boards tss it would be discrimination to say go back to your own boards!</P> <P>I started this thread I didnt break into an existing thread and derail it or anything.</P> <P>I might have generalized a bit too much but I made it clear enough who this op was targetted to in my last couple of posts.</P> <P>(I noticed I mightve generalized so thats why i wrote fury bashers in bold in the last post on the 1st page as you mightve noticed.)</P> <P>ps. I didnt talk smack as you said point me in the direction I did please mightve generalized a bit but thats as bad as i did.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[javis]

Fair enough. I recognize everyone has the right to post on any board. I am glad for your changes, it is nice to see some love for the classes that were hurting before. I support the Furies and their changes and denounce any templar that is calling for a nerf because in the end it is better for the groups and raids I am in.  Our guild Furies and their big heal when the tank is below 50% is a huge contributor to our success. Let's be honest they aren't jumping in the fray and AOEing in raids heh, they are in the healer mode. It adds to their versatility and that is awesome. I wouldn't mind a little solo loving though (shameless bump), Izzy <div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Yes I can see why templars would like to have some solo love and Im all for that the idea someone posted about a mulkti conc form or a pet sounds cool just like the old druid/shaman forms were.</P> <P>I can see that templars solo slowly buffing defensive is all to blame for that but yeah a cool solo form would be cool for templars and I hope Soe gives you something like that instead of hitting some classes down or make classes carbon copies of each other.</P> <P>So gl on that.</P>

[kaoriknigh]

<DIV>You are the only fury who has consitently come to the Templar forums and posted trash time and time again-- especially when you don't have any substance to back up your claims or assumptions. This post was obviously made to gloat. Please go level up another healer, in this case a Templar, and then maybe you won't look so foolish posting here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the record-- my Lv 49 (at the time) Fury with only Adept 1s, and T5 crafted armor was able to heal just as well, AND DPS duoing Lv. 53 ^^^ mobs versus my Lv 52 Templar in full fabled and all Adept 3's / Masters. Sure, you could call for concrete numbers, but it doesn't take a genius to see the discrepancy.</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Yes I shouldve said from the start that the please dont bash furies was targetted to the people who bash furies I shouldve been more precise.</P> <P>I might have generalized the whole templar community and Im sorry if I did but the post wasnt a troll you are wrong on that also there have been quite a lot of other classes comming to our boards and they have evry right just as I have posting my thoughts on the templar boards tss it would be discrimination to say go back to your own boards!</P> <P>I started this thread I didnt break into an existing thread and derail it or anything.</P> <P>I might have generalized a bit too much but I made it clear enough who this op was targetted to in my last couple of posts.</P> <P>(I noticed I mightve generalized so thats why i wrote fury bashers in bold in the last post on the 1st page as you mightve noticed.)</P> <P>ps. I didnt talk smack as you said point me in the direction I did please mightve generalized a bit but thats as bad as i did.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:01 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You did generalize Templars and yes it was annoying (i.e. whining about their classes is what I believe you said).  I haven't said one negative thing about Furies so I took offense.  The more "Fury based" threads created over here the more flame its going to fan.   Its not a complicated process to understand.  The developers don't need you guys to come over here and defend your class.   Obviouslly Templars don't know as much about Furies as Furies do so they aren't just going to take our word for it.  Bottom line?  Let it go.   If they want to rant about Furies, let them.   Its not going to do anyone any good because thats not what the developers look at.   You're just tossing gasoline on a fire.

[quetzaqotl]

<P>K yes ill let it die and honestly when i posted it I didnt want to start anything or hurt the whole templar community I was just going through a lot of topics containing the word fury and saw a lot of hate then I went to look up old threads we of the fury comunity posted and thought it wasnt really fair/nice of some people to bash our class.</P> <P>Also Kaori point me to the threads where I talked trash about the templar class please do the only times I came on other class' boards was when people were talking about furies and I mightve called em whiners and they were for bashing a class or gicing false information (thats why I react to give true info from a fury as many templars/wardens whatever dont know much about furies) so please where did I come on this board and talked trash to you guys with no reason whatsoever (I already said that I shouldn't ve posted this post the way I did making it a bit of a generalization)?</P> <P>And what do you mean with that this post was meant to gloat how is that???</P> <P>Lemme know pls as you attack me on things I havent done.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[MadisonPark]

<P>First off- /wave Kaori. Welcome back hon, haven't seen you in a while</P> <P> </P> <P>Secondly... Granted I haven't kept as up to date on the templar forums as I used to, but I see mostly templars being unhappy about the changes made in relation to the templar class, and would give furys as an example as to how templars are unbalanced compared to them. I haven't seen any posts yelling to straight out nerf furys.  </P> <P>If you're going to go on about "back in the day" when you traveled uphill both ways in the snow with a boulder tied to your back, perhaps you should keep in mind that back in those days, the amount of "nerf templar" threads there were. Unfortunately thats part and parcel of being a strong class. If furys are not truly overpowered, and are merely balanced to the content, then you have nothing to worry about. Otherwise, be prepared to be adjusted downward.  The devs, in their infinite wisdom, of course know best.  Time will tell. In the mean time, I don't recommend coming into the templar forums telling us about furys. Guess what, we don't care.  Its only going to make people mad and cause them to flame you. Expect it.</P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>Yes I can see why templars would like to have some solo love and Im all for that the idea someone posted about a mulkti conc form or a pet sounds cool just like the old druid/shaman forms were.</p> <p>I can see that templars solo slowly buffing defensive is all to blame for that but yeah a cool solo form would be cool for templars and I hope Soe gives you something like that instead of hitting some classes down or make classes carbon copies of each other.</p> <p>So gl on that.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>No. _All_ templar nukes should be tripled in damage and in power cost regardless of situation. Then I will call it balanced.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>K yes ill let it die and honestly when i posted it I didnt want to start anything or hurt the whole templar community I was just going through a lot of topics containing the word fury and saw a lot of hate then I went to look up old threads we of the fury comunity posted and thought it wasnt really fair/nice of some people to bash our class.</p><hr></blockquote>So you read the healine and started flaming instead of doing what you demand others to do : to read the whole post first... <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>/sigh yup Im really flaming on this thread oh yeah im talking dirt about templars and yeah I am whining lol yeah right.</P> <P>I did none of the above and explained all of it multiple times so if you want to let this die then please leave this be if not well then its time to add</P> <P>yet another page to this thread.</P> <P>and your fix to the problem there is really thought out heh yeah its so simple lets balance it that way lol man you cant compare just heals and damage you have other goodies which overshadow our goodies in the def dept you have more single target buffs you buff defense a lot while furies have 2 single target offensive buffs and 1 group offensive buff (not counting the int buff) our offensive buffing has gone down a lot while you still are good at buffing defense yes its a bit of speculation but Im going off the spell lists of the different class and thats really hard to do as our lists are REALLY different.</P> <P>Who knows maybe soe decide to balance our loss of offensive group buffing by upping our personal damage as templars do add a LOT more to a group def wise as in preventing damage heal procs ac procs whatever else.</P> <P>Im not saying this all 100% correct data but just illustrating that furies doing more damage than templars might be balanced in another way.</P> <P>Also templars having the same damage as furies have but for more power that'd be funny as in your usual fights you have lots of power to spare making you better than furies (equal damage and better def buffing)</P> <P>So Im waiting on  the 1st patient person to make a spell vs spell comparison and see what is out of whack as I personally dont have the time or patience to do that.</P> <P>What wouldve been useful is if SOE posted a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] post to show in what way they balanced the different classes as they mustve been comparing spell per spell in the combat revamp that would make it more clear if something IS out of whack.</P> <P>Cause now it 's just saying you got this but you got that while we dont know from each other what things we have or dont have.</P> <P>Also having a fury alt and saying how much more fun etc. it is doesnt prove anything at least imo when I got [Removed for Content] of at my fury "back in the day" I would log on my conjuror alt pet and it was all roses to me (while they did have their problems as well, I didnt see em at that time).</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>Who knows maybe soe decide to balance our loss of offensive group buffing by upping our personal damage as templars do add a LOT more to a group def wise as in preventing damage heal procs ac procs whatever else.</p><hr></blockquote>No. Why not? Because lu13 was what devs intended. After that, druids complained how broke they were. Fix? Take their healing capability to everyone elses level but leave the dps. Result? Serious imbalance between classes.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Hmm no fury complained about the state they were in it was mostly wardens who were screaming for a fix.</P> <P> </P> <P> editted some stuff out as its pointless to compare both classes without knowing the full spell lists of both classes and comparing spell vs spell as I said before.</P> <P> </P> <P>(yeah i would like to leave this thread alone but its hard to leave when people keep dragging you back in.)</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:30 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>Hmm no fury complained about the state they were in it was mostly wardens who were screaming for a fix.</p> <p>Also the "fix" is the increase of our hots 1 group 1 single target 10 secs worth of hot.</p> <p>That doesnt balance out heal capacity if you think it does you are wrong.</p> <p>But seriously I dont care if soe would make my regen tick for 15 secs and healing 180-ish id even prefer that as that would work better</p> <p>with some of my spells I have.</p> <p>We DONT heal equally they said they balanced out our hots to be more in line with the templar's reactives but you got more than that in the heal/def dept.</p> <p>but seriously I could live with the state my regens were in before the "upgrade" and would have np seeing that tuned back in a tough fight they arent my primary source of healing anyways (spam direct heals baby oh yeah).</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Of course you could because of the DPS and utility you have. We templar have only healing. You see it is about the usefulness of a class. Why pick a class that can heal when you can pick a class that can heal and do dps. Most of the fault lies at SoE and the devs. First they made a somewhat working archtype system with classes that have good healing and nothing else to classes that had less healing and lots of other things to offer. Then they remembered something about all healers being able to heal equally and forgot to balance the other things. Now they have a system that favors few classes and leaves clerics to stand on nothing since our heling was first halved with LU13 and now other classes healing has been buffed to our level. As a replacement, we got nothing, while you got to keep everything you had in the beginning. So what SoE should do is to balance priest DPS the same way they balanced healing. With a singe update which goes live 24h after being apllied to test and triples clerics dps.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>utility is such a vague term concerning our spells you mean a furies' invis and sow?</P> <P>well what about a templars complete incombat rez, mez and odyssey?</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>utility is such a vague term concerning our spells you mean a furies' invis and sow?</p> <p>well what about a templars complete incombat rez, mez and odyssey?</p> <hr></blockquote>Again, we have no mez. We have soothe and it is far worse than mez. And as for utility, the number of utility is the same. Healing power is the same. Even amount of damaging spells can be the same between healers. What is not the same is the base amount of damage what the damaging spells do. This is what need to be balanced since healing has been.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>k this is getting [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up Im not gonna continue this bickering 1st you say you dont have utility now you have equal utility k fine guess you were right? k Im done here</P> <P>with the amount of posts replying on each other we shouldve done pm's or even chat or whatever if you feel you d like to discuss it more please do it in a pm as Im not gonna read anymore posts on this thread im done with it.</P> <P>So if you have anything directed towards me and is worth the time please send me a pm or whatever, gl to you all.</P>

[Timaarit]

No, what I said is that templars have no actual useful utility but that we have the same number of spells that can be counted as utility as other healing classes. But since you intentionally bypassed that, I take it that you agree with me even though you are unwilling to admit it. After all, you had nothing to counter it but your rant. <div></div>

[Big Da]

Looks to me like some people have hit level 60 and got a little bored .. :smileywink: <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Big Dave wrote:<div></div> <div></div>Looks to me like some people have hit level 60 and got a little bored .. :smileywink: <div></div> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class="date_text">11-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">04:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>..only took them a couple days to lvl 60.  Of course they're bored. </span><div></div>

[Grimhamm]

<P>"...well what about a templars complete incombat rez, mez and odyssey?"</P> <P>Spit coffee on both monitor and keyboard laughing on this one - oh yeah, I login and I am swamped with /tells to come and bring these babies to battle.:smileywink:</P>

[laymu]

<span><blockquote><hr>kaoriknights wrote:<div>You are the only fury who has consitently come to the Templar forums and posted trash time and time again-- especially when you don't have any substance to back up your claims or assumptions. This post was obviously made to gloat. Please go level up another healer, in this case a Templar, and then maybe you won't look so foolish posting here.</div> <div> </div> <div>And for the record-- my Lv 49 (at the time) Fury with only Adept 1s, and T5 crafted armor was able to heal just as well, AND DPS duoing Lv. 53 ^^^ mobs versus my Lv 52 Templar in full fabled and all Adept 3's / Masters. Sure, you could call for concrete numbers, but it doesn't take a genius to see the discrepancy.</div><hr></blockquote>Ok, before I call BS on this statement... WHEN did your lvl 49 fury duo better?  I ask this because HoT's were just recently made useful. WHO were you duo'ng with?  If you say brawler.... WHAT lvl and class were they?  if you say 53+ brawler.... WHAT mobs were you fighting? I ask all these questions because, believe me, buddy..  My fury is/was/always will be better geared/spell-equipped than yours, yet, Keeping a duo-partner up with 187hp/tic and 1 horrifyingly inefficient heal (Ferine Elixir) and 1 average heal (BotV) against yellow +4 heroics PRE Druid-boost was pretty much impossible in MOST situations. At lvl 49 and with only ad1's you'd have a max of 12 in-combat regen and a very nerfed manastone.  This is assuming you have a Robe of the Invoker and finished GEBs...  Two things I have my doubts on but, are possible.  Maybe you even have a Ring of the Nightblood or Extraplanar Girdle or Band of the Shimmering Spirit... again, DOUBTFUL. Now, you're telling me that a powerpool of around 2800 (that's being GENEROUS) an adept1 BIG* Heal (Ferine Elixir) that does 550 - 720, a Smaller heal BOTV that did something like 400 at that lvl with a 10% chance to power-heal and an HoT that did jacksh|t.  You aren't gonna be usin' the Feast lines in ^^^ heroic fights because, well, they don't do anything.  Your in-combat regen did like 49 or so at ad1.. If you're using Group heal or Group HoT in a Duo fight you're doomed.. Just tell me more information.. i'm curious.  a 52 Templar in full ad3/fabled is having a tough time keeping an equal-lvl tank up...? Just to let u know where I stand on the Templar vs Fury issue (since everyone is after the furies) : Furies have the POTENTIAL to be the best healers bar-none, no doubt.  If all our regen's tick for their full amount and aren't wasted, we're top dog post 52.  If the group is in constant orange health and is whacked by a Fire AE every 20 seconds we're top dog for healing post 52.  Everything centers around our lvl 52 legendary spell.  The great equalizer.  The one spell that we require to make us viable solo-healers. In my days of being lvl 52 i was STOKED to be able to use this spell.  I wanted the tanks health to drop into orange so bad...  Of course, this rarely happens.  I've successfully casted (for the double amount) this spell TWICE.  Once was helping a ranger in need of a heal OUT OF GROUP and the other was in Cazel's Mesa because the warlock wanted to tank Cazel (no joke).  Priests are meant to keep the group alive.  Something I would say that both priests do equally well.  I won't touch grouping. Solo'ng seems to be the major issue as the way a templar keeps a group alive (group lasts longer than mob) is opposite for fury, (Burn down mob before healing becomes an issue) soooo..  Give Clerics/shamans an offensive stance that has a 100% chance to proc 200 Divine dmg on successful arcane spell over lvl 35 (that way Smite can't be spammed/abused/eventually nerfed).  Make this stance eat 140hp every 10 seconds and can't be healed with reactives with upgrades increasing only damage proc'd to a master1 max of  275 with 180int. And someone answer me this.. Furies used to add a LOT more dps to the groups than they do now.  We actually contribute to a raid LESS than what we used to.  Is it really because we can go wizardish mode every 24 seconds that has everybody in uproar? </span><div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Erm what? 12 max regen at 49.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You would have 5 base and you have the option to get 10 extra from traits giving you 15 before RoI and GEBs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or shall I just call BS on you?</DIV>

[Sunlei]

<P>waiting to see one /log of how crummy solo is...I'd like to see that you're using all your spells. And please post your lvl, the level of the mob and if it's heroic or not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>One way dps can be helped is if they roll-back the horrible damage nurf the HOs took.</P>