Templar DPS problem found and solutions...(txt)

[xxFlukexx]

<P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Recently I viewed a post by Kendricke looking for priests to parse DPS numbers for comparison. So I looked into this by comparing the offensive spells of Templars to Wardens and Furies. I also made this post because of the wild claims that Templars take 3 times as long to solo or posts made by numbskulls like this:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=13216" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=13216</A></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>For my analysis I used a newly created alt and ran to a medium pop server and looked up the various spells on the broker. I compare Adept Is to corresponding Adept Is. Comparison is better between Templar and warden as we have the same basic 4 attack spells: big nuke, little nuke, encounter nuke and dot. And contrary to popular belief, a warden can pull just about as much dps as a fury.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>For those of you who don't want to read numbers or are really bad at math, here's the gist of this post: Templar spells do less damage for less power at the *same* recharge and casting times. If you actually calculate all of the factors into a damage spell(power, cast time, recharge time, damage, and level) you will find that they are all about even. The problem is with the formula or process SOE is using to balance damage spells between the priests. Because of the way recharge and casting times work in this game,  bigger damage upfront is always better than smaller, more efficient damage done over time.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Here's the spell numbers I used. Modified DPS is taking the average damage of a spell and dividing it by the total time spent(cast time + recharge time + .5 recovery time) Spell:quality:level then damage, power, dps, modified dps and increase.</SPAN></P><SPAN class=time_text> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Divine Strike:Ad1:lvl38:<BR>187-229<BR>54 power<BR>104 dps<BR>19.8 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Bitter Frost:Ad1:lvl39:<BR>289-353<BR>74 power<BR>160.5 dps<BR>+54% dps<BR>30.6 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Strike of Storms:Ad1:37<BR>3cast:15recast<BR>454-757<BR>141 power<BR>201.8 dps</P> <P>+194% dps<BR>32.7 modified dps</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Beams of Faith:Ad1:32<BR>174<BR>77power<BR>58 dps<BR>8.9 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Winds of Frost:Ad1:32<BR>274-335<BR>93 power<BR>101.5 dps</P> <P>+75% dps<BR>15.6 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Starburst:Ad1:32<BR>4cast:20recast<BR>470-574<BR>198 power<BR>130.5 dps</P> <P>+225%<BR>21.3 modified dps</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Reproving Smite:Ad1:31<BR>2cast:3recast<BR>113-139<BR>39 power<BR>pacifies<BR>63 dps<BR>22.9 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Summers Flame:Ad1:31<BR>2cast:3recast<BR>150-184<BR>45 power<BR>83.5 dps<BR>30.4 modified dps<BR>+32.5%</P> <P> </P> <P>Deadly Swarm:Ad1:31<BR>1cast:4recast<BR>38-46 per 3 secs for 12 secs the warring faith and <BR>-11.2 defense<BR>14 dps</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Warring Faith:Ad1:37<BR>2cast:15recast<BR>115-140<BR>57-70 every 4 secs<BR>88 power</P> <P> </P> <P>Frostbite:Ad1:37<BR>1cast:24recast<BR>69-84 per 4 secs<BR>88 power<BR>-444 cold,heat mit</P> <P> </P> <P>Whirlwind:Ad1:39<BR>2cast:8recast<BR>74-88 per 2 secs<BR>74 power</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Situation: We are analyzing SOLO DPS before debuffs, buffs or any special spells 50+ or any adventure pack spells. In these situations sometimes DPS is traded for healing or utility so a fair comparison cannot be made. Auto-attack and such procs like damage shields are left out as the damage from them are small enough compared to where the majority of the damage comes so we can disregard them. I don't know if SOE wants all priest classes to do the same DPS. Unless Moorguard or some other creative mind in SOE wants to post, I assume that all priests *should* be able to solo with about the same efficiency.</P> <P>Analysis: You see Wardens getting a good increase in raw dps over a Templar, ranging from 32.5% to 54% which equates to about a 40-50% increase in actual dps. Wardens and Templars can both chain cast utilizing every HO to it's fullest and keep their dot on the target indefinitely. </P> <P> </P> <P>The Problem, once again, is a 100 damage spell for 100 power is not the same as a 75 damage spell for 75 power if the casting time and recharge times on the two spells are the same. This is what happened to the Templar spells somewhere in the CU.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Solutions to the problem:</P> <P>1) Easiest solution to code(aka hotfix so Templars could get help now) would be to cut in half all of the Templar recharge times and cut 1 second off casting time on their little nuke and big nuke. Yes, Templars would be casting like crazy, but my calculations show that they will be just below warden DPS</P> <P> </P> <P>2) Give Templars larger damage, but done over time. Wardens get about 43% of their heal upfront and the rest in a slow dot, so give that to Templars. So instead of a 187-229 2 sec 8 recast nuke they would get 100 damage done instantly and 37.5 damage every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. First nuke does 208 avg damage, second nuke does 250 damage slower over time.</P> <P> </P> <P>3) Give Templars faster recharge times but also give their nukes some fun buffs. Like how about both single nukes have a 25% chance to give +5 to a random stat for 5 minutes. This buff can stack up to ten times, so when a templar casts furiously for awhile he gains a good buff. So the plan is to let Templars cast about 2 times as much as other classes and get neat buffs. I thought of this when I saw the Inquisitor encounter nuke get an interrupt effect. Either strips those effects or give all classes neat buffs or effects like I described above.</P> <P>Conclusion: Templars need a dps boost ONLY SO THEY CAN SOLO. In a group, what priest really cares about DPS? If you are healing a fury doesn't have time to cast a 3 or 4 second nuke, so there is no way any increase in Templar DPS can possibly break the game or the balance while adventuring. My Warden doesn't do very good DPS, he can solo but it's pretty slow. It seems balanced when I play my Warden(lvl 44) I can solo any white con no-heroic and do so slowly but effectively enough to be interesting.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. Sorry for the double post, it posted twice before I was finished. Also if there are any errors(which there might be as its like 4:19am) please reply and I'll check them.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>P.P.S. Anyone have the duration on the Fury and Templar DoTs? It doesn't show when examining a spell scroll so I was unable to make dps numbers, they look pretty even though.</P> <P> </P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by xxFlukexx on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by xxFlukexx on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 AM</span>

[Danter]

<P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P>Not a bad post, but a bit of your information is a little unaccurate.</P> <P> </P> <P>A Warden can't pull the same DPS as a Fury because of the Fury's intelligence buff, which adds a bit more to their damage than just simply examining their spells and comparing.  Furies also get utility abilities like their level 55 spell Ring of Fire, their Bestial Feast spell which does aoe DoT damage to the encounter when target dies, and their Thornskin does 20 aoe damage each time the target attacks, which adds up very quickly.  Furies also have a buff where it increases the STR and AGI of an ally and gives them a 10% chance to proc a 40% haste and 40% DPS increase which can be really significant if casted on a Fighter.  Fury's water breathing spell also gives a small damage proc, which although is insignificant most times, still contributes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Templars have 0 ways to increase the damage of the group except by casting Praetorate, which is about a 5% DPS increase, and by casting Sacred Redoubt, which is about a 3% DPS increase to a single target.  I think this part is balanced because Templars shouldn't have ways to increase a group's DPS because their utilities spells are based on healing like Atoning Fate, Mark of Kings, and Glory of Combat.</P> <P> </P> <P>The part that isn't balanced is the overall potentcy of the Fury's core nukes (DD, AoE, and DoT) over a Templar.  Since SOE balanced the core heals, reactives, specialties, and regens to be the same, the damage nukes of all Priest classes should be the same.  Your numbers again prove they clearly aren't.</P> <P> </P> <P>Furies DoT lasts 8s and ticks every 2s, which is way more effective than a Templar's because faster DoTs are always better than slower ones.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, not including damage shields and writing them off as insignificant is an oversight.  While soloing a multi-mob encounter, mobs can easily hit you 20+ times as a Priest, which would add...in a Furies case, 400 aoe damage which will more than nullify a mob's health regen rate.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Danterus on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 AM</span>

[Antryg Mistrose]

I think an effect you are leaving out of your calculations is the available power. Your figures show a lower dps than the other priests.  Having lower dps, means more power needs to be diverted to heals, as the fights take longer, so the mob has more time to do more damage to you, and heal or recover from damage to itself.  This is a vicious circle and increases the disparity beyond what you are seeing from inspecting the spells. The size of the power pool and efficiency of the player's heals also have a big impact, on how much power can be diverted to offense, as lets face it, we aren't going to melee a mob to death. Together with how much the player's can avoid/resist damage, and how much interrupts pro-long the fight makes a mockery of simplistic data collection.  Sony has access to ALL the data.  It's them who needs to fix soloing. It would be nice to know if all the "we are okay" type posts come from players who have a lot of power regen items, or who don't actually solo. As others have remarked, a damage shield type solo spell would make a big difference.  I've found soloing with potions of these, slightly less painful. <p></p>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P> </P> <P>Original poster - good post, and bang on the nail.</P> <P> </P> <P>Felishanna.</P> <P> </P>

[Aleph]

<P></P> <P></P> <P>Quote:  "Templars have 0 ways to increase the damage of the group except by casting Praetorate, which is about a 5% DPS increase, and by casting Sacred Redoubt, which is about a 3% DPS increase to a single target.  I think this part is balanced because Templars shouldn't have ways to increase a group's DPS because their utilities spells are based on healing like Atoning Fate, Mark of Kings, and Glory of Combat."</P> <P> </P> <P>Have you accounted for Reproach?  I haven't parsed this, but I did some checking.  My reproach spell debuffs ~ 450 mitigation, which removes ~10% mit from my toon (if I remove 450 worth of armor).  With this debuff on a target, you should probably credit the templar with about 15-20% of all the post-mitigation physical damage in the group if monsters mitigate similarly to PCs.  We would need parses to show whether monsters and PCs are similarly affected by the mit debuff, though.</P> <P>Unfortunately, this spell doesn't help much solo, but its contribution shouldn't be overlooked in a group.</P> <P>Alephin</P> <P>Message Edited by Alephin on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:14 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alephin on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 AM</span>

[Danter]

<P></P> <P>You're right...I forgot about Reproach which is a decent spell.</P> <P>Druids get a Stinging Swarm line which debuffs defense and does a DoT.  Mitigation debuffs are a lot more important than defense debuffs now, but the Druid line does damage which pretty much evens it out.</P>

[Kendricke]

<P></P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alephin wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P></P> <P>Quote:  "Templars have 0 ways to increase the damage of the group except by casting Praetorate, which is about a 5% DPS increase, and by casting Sacred Redoubt, which is about a 3% DPS increase to a single target.  I think this part is balanced because Templars shouldn't have ways to increase a group's DPS because their utilities spells are based on healing like Atoning Fate, Mark of Kings, and Glory of Combat."</P> <P> </P> <P>Have you accounted for Reproach?  I haven't parsed this, but I did some checking.  My reproach spell debuffs ~ 450 mitigation, which removes ~10% mit from my toon (if I remove 450 worth of armor).  With this debuff on a target, you should probably credit the templar with about 15-20% of all the post-mitigation physical damage in the group if monsters mitigate similarly to PCs.  We would need parses to show whether monsters and PCs are similarly affected by the mit debuff, though.</P> <P>Unfortunately, this spell doesn't help much solo, but its contribution shouldn't be overlooked in a group.</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'll run some parses tonight.</P> <P> </P> <P>First run:  Control<BR>Test straight up autoattack (non proc) on grey targets without any debuffs or buffs cast.  I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P>Second run:  No in-battle spells cast<BR>Test straight up autoattack (non proc) on grey targets without any spells cast during fight.  I will cast full buff spread however. I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P>Third run:   No damage spells cast.<BR>Test straight up autoattack (non proc) on grey targets without full buffs and debuffs, but no direct attack spells.  I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fourth run:  Real World Situation - anything goes.<BR>No holds barred.  I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Aleph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P></P><BR> <P>I'll run some parses tonight.</P> <P> </P> <P>First run:  Control<BR>Test straight up autoattack (non proc) on grey targets without any debuffs or buffs cast.  I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P>Second run:  No in-battle spells cast<BR>Test straight up autoattack (non proc) on grey targets without any spells cast during fight.  I will cast full buff spread however. I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P>Third run:   No damage spells cast.<BR>Test straight up autoattack (non proc) on grey targets without full buffs and debuffs, but no direct attack spells.  I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fourth run:  Real World Situation - anything goes.<BR>No holds barred.  I'm thinking 10-20 targets, calculate best/worst/average fight duration; b/w/a DPS; b/w/a health of target.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:44 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Does mitigation percentage scale with con?  If so, the parses would be more informative against targets near your level.</P> <P>Alephin<BR></P> <P></P>

[Kendricke]

<P></P> <P>It may scale, but so long as there's a control, we should see some measure of difference.  However, if I want to kill targets using only autoattack, I'm going to have to stick to green or blue targets, at the least.  An alternative might be to duel a guildmate and parse in that way. </P>

[Stjarna Kvar]

Sounds like a great test, Ken. Please post results, I'm dying to see em.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stjarna Kvarco wrote:<BR>Sounds like a great test, Ken. Please post results, I'm dying to see em.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Want to duel tonight?  :smileyvery-happy: <P></P>

[Nari]

Yeah!  Use the two handed flail!  Well, of course unless there is something better...  Could you also include what kind of increases your weapon will give you? <p></p>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Stjarna Kvarco wrote:Sounds like a great test, Ken. Please post results, I'm dying to see em. <hr> </blockquote>Want to duel tonight?  :smileyvery-happy: <p></p><hr></blockquote>Well, if you were on my server, I'd be glad to lay the smack down on you. *sees the Everfrost version of Kendricke* Crap! *runs away*</span><p></p>

[Aleph]

<P></P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>It may scale, but so long as there's a control, we should see some measure of difference.  However, if I want to kill targets using only autoattack, I'm going to have to stick to green or blue targets, at the least.  An alternative might be to duel a guildmate and parse in that way. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I think blues might be the best balance (or maybe some down-arrow whites or yellows).  The lower the mobs mitigation, the more likely that any changes you observe will be confounded with RNG noise.  Additionally, the higher cons will take more swings to kill, but you'll also get more data per mob from them.  This should be an interesting experiment in any case.  Thanks for taking it on.</P> <P> </P> <P>Alephin</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xxFlukexx wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Recently I viewed a post by Kendricke looking for priests to parse DPS numbers for comparison. So I looked into this by comparing the offensive spells of Templars to Wardens and Furies. I also made this post because of the wild claims that Templars take 3 times as long to solo or posts made by numbskulls like this:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=13216" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=13216</A></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>For my analysis I used a newly created alt and ran to a medium pop server and looked up the various spells on the broker. I compare Adept Is to corresponding Adept Is. Comparison is better between Templar and warden as we have the same basic 4 attack spells: big nuke, little nuke, encounter nuke and dot. And contrary to popular belief, a warden can pull just about as much dps as a fury.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>For those of you who don't want to read numbers or are really bad at math, here's the gist of this post: Templar spells do less damage for less power at the *same* recharge and casting times. If you actually calculate all of the factors into a damage spell(power, cast time, recharge time, damage, and level) you will find that they are all about even. The problem is with the formula or process SOE is using to balance damage spells between the priests. Because of the way recharge and casting times work in this game,  bigger damage upfront is always better than smaller, more efficient damage done over time.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Here's the spell numbers I used. Modified DPS is taking the average damage of a spell and dividing it by the total time spent(cast time + recharge time + .5 recovery time) Spell:quality:level then damage, power, dps, modified dps and increase.</SPAN></P><SPAN class=time_text> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Divine Strike:Ad1:lvl38:<BR>187-229<BR>54 power<BR>104 dps<BR>19.8 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Bitter Frost:Ad1:lvl39:<BR>289-353<BR>74 power<BR>160.5 dps<BR>+54% dps<BR>30.6 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Strike of Storms:Ad1:37<BR>3cast:15recast<BR>454-757<BR>141 power<BR>201.8 dps</P> <P>+194% dps<BR>32.7 modified dps</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Beams of Faith:Ad1:32<BR>174<BR>77power<BR>58 dps<BR>8.9 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Winds of Frost:Ad1:32<BR>274-335<BR>93 power<BR>101.5 dps</P> <P>+75% dps<BR>15.6 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Starburst:Ad1:32<BR>4cast:20recast<BR>470-574<BR>198 power<BR>130.5 dps</P> <P>+225%<BR>21.3 modified dps</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Reproving Smite:Ad1:31<BR>2cast:3recast<BR>113-139<BR>39 power<BR>pacifies<BR>63 dps<BR>22.9 modified dps</P> <P> </P> <P>Summers Flame:Ad1:31<BR>2cast:3recast<BR>150-184<BR>45 power<BR>83.5 dps<BR>30.4 modified dps<BR>+32.5%</P> <P> </P> <P>Deadly Swarm:Ad1:31<BR>1cast:4recast<BR>38-46 per 3 secs for 12 secs the warring faith and <BR>-11.2 defense<BR>14 dps</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Warring Faith:Ad1:37<BR>2cast:15recast<BR>115-140<BR>57-70 every 4 secs<BR>88 power</P> <P> </P> <P>Frostbite:Ad1:37<BR>1cast:24recast<BR>69-84 per 4 secs<BR>88 power<BR>-444 cold,heat mit</P> <P> </P> <P>Whirlwind:Ad1:39<BR>2cast:8recast<BR>74-88 per 2 secs<BR>74 power</P> <P><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P><BR>Situation: We are analyzing SOLO DPS before debuffs, buffs or any special spells 50+ or any adventure pack spells. In these situations sometimes DPS is traded for healing or utility so a fair comparison cannot be made. Auto-attack and such procs like damage shields are left out as the damage from them are small enough compared to where the majority of the damage comes so we can disregard them. I don't know if SOE wants all priest classes to do the same DPS. Unless Moorguard or some other creative mind in SOE wants to post, I assume that all priests *should* be able to solo with about the same efficiency.</P> <P>Analysis: You see Wardens getting a good increase in raw dps over a Templar, ranging from 32.5% to 54% which equates to about a 40-50% increase in actual dps. Wardens and Templars can both chain cast utilizing every HO to it's fullest and keep their dot on the target indefinitely. </P> <P> </P> <P>The Problem, once again, is a 100 damage spell for 100 power is not the same as a 75 damage spell for 75 power if the casting time and recharge times on the two spells are the same. This is what happened to the Templar spells somewhere in the CU.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Solutions to the problem:</P> <P>1) Easiest solution to code(aka hotfix so Templars could get help now) would be to cut in half all of the Templar recharge times and cut 1 second off casting time on their little nuke and big nuke. Yes, Templars would be casting like crazy, but my calculations show that they will be just below warden DPS</P> <P> </P> <P>2) Give Templars larger damage, but done over time. Wardens get about 43% of their heal upfront and the rest in a slow dot, so give that to Templars. So instead of a 187-229 2 sec 8 recast nuke they would get 100 damage done instantly and 37.5 damage every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. First nuke does 208 avg damage, second nuke does 250 damage slower over time.</P> <P> </P> <P>3) Give Templars faster recharge times but also give their nukes some fun buffs. Like how about both single nukes have a 25% chance to give +5 to a random stat for 5 minutes. This buff can stack up to ten times, so when a templar casts furiously for awhile he gains a good buff. So the plan is to let Templars cast about 2 times as much as other classes and get neat buffs. I thought of this when I saw the Inquisitor encounter nuke get an interrupt effect. Either strips those effects or give all classes neat buffs or effects like I described above.</P> <P>Conclusion: Templars need a dps boost ONLY SO THEY CAN SOLO. In a group, what priest really cares about DPS? If you are healing a fury doesn't have time to cast a 3 or 4 second nuke, so there is no way any increase in Templar DPS can possibly break the game or the balance while adventuring. My Warden doesn't do very good DPS, he can solo but it's pretty slow. It seems balanced when I play my Warden(lvl 44) I can solo any white con no-heroic and do so slowly but effectively enough to be interesting.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. Sorry for the double post, it posted twice before I was finished. Also if there are any errors(which there might be as its like 4:19am) please reply and I'll check them.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>P.P.S. Anyone have the duration on the Fury and Templar DoTs? It doesn't show when examining a spell scroll so I was unable to make dps numbers, they look pretty even though.</P> <P> </P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by xxFlukexx on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:32 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by xxFlukexx on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am so glad to know I inspire you. Lets see if there is an imbalance with just the base spells. Lets start with the little nuke. Double the DPS there, hmmmm. Well the AE only looks to be like a factor of 3, wow this is getting better. The others seem to be almost normal, except for the DoTs which are way underbalanced for Templars. Yeah they do about the same amount of damage, kinda. Oh wait yalls is cheaper, and takes half as long to do the damage, thats right. There is a problem, it needs to be solved. <P></P>

[quetzaqotl]

<FONT color=#ffff00>Bah i grow so tired of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but here goes</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P>Not a bad post, but a bit of your information is a little unaccurate.</P> <P> </P> <P>A Warden can't pull the same DPS as a Fury because of the Fury's <FONT color=#ff0000>intelligence buff </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>important one yes we buff int a lot giving us more dmg </FONT>, which adds a bit more to their damage than just simply examining their spells and comparing.  Furies also get utility abilities like their level 55 spell <FONT color=#ff0000>Ring of Fire </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>didnt templars get the same ae spell at least on beta you had that ae spell thats is the same as ring of fire is to furies</FONT>, their<FONT color=#ff3300> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Bestial Feast spell which does aoe DoT damage to the encounter when target dies </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>not true pls examine our spells before you make assumptions this spell is a heal on death if you kill a mob with this spell casted on the mob it heals the person who killed the mob for like a hot of 80 wow insane eh?</FONT>, and their <FONT color=#ff3300>Thornskin does 20 aoe damage each time the target attacks </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>to be clear here its melee dmg and it procs when the target is indeed hit</FONT>, which adds up very quickly.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Furies also have a buff where it increases the STR and AGI of an ally and gives them a 10% chance to proc a 40% haste and 40% DPS increase </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>nice spell its single target tho so its only castable on 1 person</FONT> which can be really significant if casted on a Fighter.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Fury's water breathing spell also gives a small damage proc </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>not true our water breathing spell gives fish vision no dmg proc at all</FONT>, which although is insignificant most times, still contributes.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Templars have 0 ways to increase the damage of the group</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>hmm you say 0 and then come around naming 2 spells which do increase dmg but thats not the point you have heal procs etc. on buffs which we dont does defensive/offensive priest say anything to you?? </FONT>except by casting Praetorate, which is about a 5% DPS increase, and by casting Sacred Redoubt, which is about a 3% DPS increase to a single target.  I think this part is balanced because Templars shouldn't have ways to increase a group's DPS because their utilities spells are based on healing like Atoning Fate, Mark of Kings, and Glory of Combat.</P> <P> </P> <P>The part that isn't balanced is the overall potentcy of the Fury's core nukes (DD, AoE, and DoT) over a Templar.  <FONT color=#ff3300>Since SOE balanced the core heals, reactives, specialties, and regens to be the same </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>lol yeah right the core is balanced they balanced the direct heals but clearly still the extra heals templars have in forms of buffs proccing ac mitig health and the superiority of reactives in most cases and being able to put multiple reactives on 1 target as in solo reactive combined with group reactive which isnt wasted (in a normal group only the mt gets hit giving the mt all the procs of the group reactive)</FONT>, <FONT color=#ff0000>the damage nukes of all Priest classes should be the same </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>yeah right we have more int and you nuke faster than us and have other goodies</FONT>.  Your numbers again prove they clearly aren't.</P> <P> </P> <P>Furies DoT lasts 8s and ticks every 2s, which is way more effective than a Templar's because faster DoTs are always better than slower ones.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, not including damage shields and writing them off as insignificant is an oversight.  While soloing a multi-mob encounter, mobs can easily hit you 20+ times as a Priest, which would add...in a Furies case, 400 aoe damage which will more than nullify a mob's health regen rate.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>Havent read this whole thing here as Im bored with these templar whinefests you do have utility in odyssey crowd control spells we have invis and sow both can be bought from a friendly merchant for around 50s oh yeah we should really pay for that and you should run around in the best armour (as in having the best choice the highest mitig might be broke atm will be fixed maxx out the stats easily and choose to have mitig or avoidance.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<font color="#ffff00">Bah i grow so tired of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but here goes</font> <blockquote> <hr>The part that isn't balanced is the overall potentcy of the Fury's core nukes (DD, AoE, and DoT) over a Templar.  <font color="#ff3300">Since SOE balanced the core heals, reactives, specialties, and regens to be the same </font><font color="#ffff00">lol yeah right the core is balanced they balanced the direct heals but clearly still the extra heals templars have in forms of buffs proccing ac mitig health and the superiority of reactives in most cases and being able to put multiple reactives on 1 target as in solo reactive combined with group reactive which isnt wasted (in a normal group only the mt gets hit giving the mt all the procs of the group reactive)</font>, <font color="#ff0000">the damage nukes of all Priest classes should be the same </font><font color="#ffff00">yeah right we have more int and you nuke faster than us and have other goodies</font>.  Your numbers again prove they clearly aren't. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>Likewise. Core is balanced and templar buff/utility count about 5 to 10% of templar healing plus since it is proccing, you really cannot trust it to proc when really needed. In addition our procs no longer buff mitigation so check your 'facts'. Reactives are not superior as there are many situations where HoT's are far better. True that in some situations reactives are better, but since that is not always the case, reactives are not superior. My templar has 180 intelligence at lvl 54 and do about 140 dps against low yellow con single targets while soloing. My 'nukes' are all adept III's (as are heals) and I have 50% legendary and 50% treasured gear. So I am definately better than average geared. Similarly equipped (with less a3's though -  yes, I know, I am the guilds sage) fury in our guild (lvl 51) does 2,5 times my dps while soloing the same things I do. So trust me, your boredom is nothing compared to my frustration on current situation. Give me a /reclass and I would pick a fury or warden in a heartbeat despite the plat I have used on my templar.</span><div></div>

[Big Da]

Nice to know after months of "whinefests" from mystics it only take 5 secs for them to start putting down other classes when they discuss a disparity.

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Trust me your frustration is NOTHING compared to what [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shamans and furies had to take for 9 months so dont even go there pls.</P> <P>A healer doesnt only dps and heal we do other stuff as well debuffing buffing etc. so you can t say class a has better dps, gdi I want better dps!</P> <P>Also to a healer the power of a heal is more important than dps dont you agree templars DO heal better than furies if they know their stuff and you can count on proccing heals, yes you dont know when itll proc but it WILL proc in fights so you cant neglect the fact that you have that and we (furies) dont.</P> <P>Also you can take down tougher (single) mobs than I can, yes itll take you more time but its also safer for you to do so.</P> <P>Also our dmg gets interrupted a lot getting our big bombs off takes sometime and when im soloing getting starnova off will end up in 4-5 interrupts in your usual fight.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>but I guess the grass is greener on the other side</FONT></P>

[Sute]

<P>Why are furies and other priests coming here complaining, we dont want you get you nerf'ed. we want to get us improved.</P> <P>This has nothing to do with nerf;ing you, we just want a little something too.</P>

[xxFlukexx]

<DIV>Having trouble logging onto the forums(when I login it says you have to be a member of the forums, think it works now)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Danterus: Ack you are right, Furies do get +int buffs to wardens +wis buffs and that adds in a decent bonus to dps. Haven't added in 50+ stuff since they seem to be more flavor and special spells, really hard to balance those. Furies have 3 damage procs? I was only aware of their fire damage proc(or something like that) and that seemed in line with the Warden dps increase buff. My point is that people think dps wise its fury>>>>>>>>warden>everyone else. When in reality wardens are a lot closer to furies, I am happy enough with my wardens dps not to have envy of furies and think it's a good balance point.</DIV> <DIV>As for damage shields, we get that while Templars get a physical mit debuff and Inqs get a magical debuff. That's a good tradeoff to me, damage shield is nothing vs heroics and debuffs are always sweet. So for solo vs groups, the damage shield rocks, but in a group, I'd rather have the debuff. I believe the damage shield works out to somewhere between 7-12% dps increase. Good point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Antryg Mistrose: Nah, in a solo dps situation, total power factors into very few situations, mainly when you get an add and if you play optimumly that should rarely happen. When I solo vs a white v(which seem to be the most common mob faced when solo) I usually only need to slap on my regen and maybe one other heal and can still chain nuke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was also under the impression since my scout can wear light armor, that Templars were able to wear medium and light armor as well. So armor selection is the choice of the Templar, use what is best for you. Even though Templars can wear heavy, the way reactives and avoidance and interrupts work I would wear a mix of medium and light armor. Interrupts are pretty much even across the classes. Wardens wolf form grants them a boost to focus but sometimes I get interrupted like crazy just like all the other classes. Templars notice a higher interrupt rate vs solo vv and vvv's because it takes so long to kill that first mob, if you could get that first mob down faster with more dps like us druids you wouldn't notice it as much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE does have access to all of the data and spreadsheets and super cool utilities, but they are using them wrong. A weaker damage spell with less power is not balanced. Imagine if Druids got +50% heals with +50% power usage, imagine the holy hell everyone would raise. Templars who group a lot don't notice the dps loss, but if you don't get dps then you should get something else, or else you are gimpo the unhappy [Removed for Content] with a gimpy leg that hops on the gimpy beach.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for reproach, I can't imagine that giving out much worthwhile dps. Someone said above that it gave about -10% physical mit. I use a 41 dps weapon on my 44 warden and it's a pretty good dps weapon from what I gather. So 10% more dps is about 4.1 dps. It's so low I don't even bother, the druids damage shield I am guessing is about 10-15 dps at my level(44) It does much more vs groups of mobs, but then again your debuff in a group with scouts and fighters, yummmmmy.</DIV>

[xxFlukexx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Trust me your frustration is NOTHING compared to what [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shamans and furies had to take for 9 months so dont even go there pls.</P> <P>A healer doesnt only dps and heal we do other stuff as well debuffing buffing etc. so you can t say class a has better dps, gdi I want better dps!</P> <P>Also to a healer the power of a heal is more important than dps dont you agree templars DO heal better than furies if they know their stuff and you can count on proccing heals, yes you dont know when itll proc but it WILL proc in fights so you cant neglect the fact that you have that and we (furies) dont.</P> <P>Also you can take down tougher (single) mobs than I can, yes itll take you more time but its also safer for you to do so.</P> <P>Also our dmg gets interrupted a lot getting our big bombs off takes sometime and when im soloing getting starnova off will end up in 4-5 interrupts in your usual fight.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>but I guess the grass is greener on the other side</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>1) Yes I can say a class has better dps. The 4 main damage spell lines(small nuke, big nuke, dot, and encounter nuke) make up the vast majority of my damage. By comparing these spells we can easily see that Templars have less dps than comparable warden and fury spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Healing effectiveness between Templar and Fury is irrelevant. All priests should heal roughly the same, stated by SOE, so sorry that is not valid anymore. And since Templars do get less DPS than say Furies, exactly what DO they get in return? Utility,debuffs, procs and buffs seem fairly balanced to me. Would love SOE to chime in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) I don't see how Templars can take down tougher single mobs than anyone else. If there is any class that can do that, I would say that honor goes to Wardens, when fighting a -4 level Heroic I can keep him rooted and still damage him. But it takes way too long and I usually run out of power so it's hardly useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Interrupts from long casting time: Then I guess you won't mind trading your main damage spell lines for Templar spell lines, hmmmm? You get a hefty damage boost for that extra second of casting time, well enough to make it worth your while. A long casting time(like your 4 second encounter nuke) makes it the best opener for a priest. I would gladly take an extra second of casting time for more damage. Interrupts affect everyone the same(halts dps) and while interrupts are more common for a Fury, the damage makes up for it and interrupts do not really come into play unless I am fighting a yellow con group of mobs. And even in that situation, all priest classes tend to complain the same about interrupts. Over the course of 1000s of fights I hardly notice or even care about interrupts, negligible effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) "<FONT color=#66ff00>but I guess the grass is greener on the other side"</FONT>  Yes it is, but math doesn't lie. </DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Ok so all of a sudden templars dont heal better than furies?</P> <P>Hah ill let you do the math your self templars DO heal better than furies we should get better dps than the most defensive</P> <P>priest and you cant trade the loss of heals 1:1 with dps as that would be silly for a healer also you got other things to offset the difference we get dmg buffs</P> <P>you get def buffs like proccing heals mitig better hp buffs or whatever Ive heard from quite some templars that they are very happy with the change and dont feel like mr gimpo like so many of you feel on these boards.</P>

[Cowdenic]

Templars lost mitigation buffs in the combat (nerf for clerics) revamp. oh but i can give 600 hp to the MT. great.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>Trust me your frustration is NOTHING compared to what [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shamans and furies had to take for 9 months so dont even go there pls.</p> <p>A healer doesnt only dps and heal we do other stuff as well debuffing buffing etc. so you can t say class a has better dps, gdi I want better dps!</p> <p>Also to a healer the power of a heal is more important than dps dont you agree templars DO heal better than furies if they know their stuff and you can count on proccing heals, yes you dont know when itll proc but it WILL proc in fights so you cant neglect the fact that you have that and we (furies) dont.</p> <p>Also you can take down tougher (single) mobs than I can, yes itll take you more time but its also safer for you to do so.</p> <p>Also our dmg gets interrupted a lot getting our big bombs off takes sometime and when im soloing getting starnova off will end up in 4-5 interrupts in your usual fight.</p> <p><font color="#66ff00">but I guess the grass is greener on the other side</font></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>FYI. That is not the fault of any clerical class here on forums. So go away you troll.</span><div></div>

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Also you can take down tougher (single) mobs than I can, yes itll take you more time but its also safer for you to do so.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Its more the other way around. We heal ourselves (and others) most efficently using our reactives. Intro to reactives 101: You only get healed when you get hit. Now, the more mobs in an encounter, the less hp each mob has and the lower they hit for, granted your getting hit more often. The goal is for the reactive heal amount to be greater than or equal to the damage of each hit, otherwise your total health is diminishing, requiring either <STRONG>a)</STRONG> the stacking of a second or third reactive <EM>and/ or</EM> <STRONG>b)</STRONG> a direct heal.  </DIV>

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Trust me your frustration is NOTHING compared to what [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] shamans and furies had to take for 9 months so dont even go there pls.</P> <P>A healer doesnt only dps and heal we do other stuff as well debuffing buffing etc. so you can t say class a has better dps, gdi I want better dps!</P> <P>Also to a healer the power of a heal is more important than dps dont you agree templars DO heal better than furies if they know their stuff and you can count on proccing heals, yes you dont know when itll proc but it WILL proc in fights so you cant neglect the fact that you have that and we (furies) dont.</P> <P>Also you can take down tougher (single) mobs than I can, yes itll take you more time but its also safer for you to do so.</P> <P>Also our dmg gets interrupted a lot getting our big bombs off takes sometime and when im soloing getting starnova off will end up in 4-5 interrupts in your usual fight.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>but I guess the grass is greener on the other side</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What does how long it took to get fury healing fixed have to do with templar DPS?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted Fury healing is still a bit average but that isnt the problem this thread is about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People are discussing frustraion with Templar DPS please leave your personal little crusade out of this topic.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>I only came on this thread cause someone was comparing templar vs fury and was giving false info pls read the entire thread before you react on a post I made.</P> <P>I wont come on a thread solely about templars as frankly I dont really have any interest in that class.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>I only came on this thread cause someone was comparing templar vs fury and was giving false info pls read the entire thread before you react on a post I made.</p> <p>I wont come on a thread solely about templars as frankly I dont really have any interest in that class.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Your lack of interest shows in the misinformation you have about templars. Correct information has been given to you, so it is up to you whether you are interested enough to find out or not. If you decide not to find out, please go away.</span><div></div>

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>I only came on this thread cause someone was comparing templar vs fury and was giving false info pls read the entire thread before you react on a post I made.</P> <P>I wont come on a thread solely about templars as frankly I dont really have any interest in that class.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well your intentions and your posts seem to have become at odds with each other</P> <DIV>Also you didnt answer my question, what does problems with the length of time a fix took for your class have to do with templar DPS .... I believe you will find it is nothing, but continue on regardless its seems to be your style.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:57 PM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Bah i grow so tired of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but here goes</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P></P> <P>Not a bad post, but a bit of your information is a little unaccurate.</P> <P> </P> <P>A Warden can't pull the same DPS as a Fury because of the Fury's <FONT color=#ff0000>intelligence buff </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>important one yes we buff int a lot giving us more dmg </FONT>, which adds a bit more to their damage than just simply examining their spells and comparing.  Furies also get utility abilities like their level 55 spell <FONT color=#ff0000>Ring of Fire </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>didnt templars get the same ae spell at least on beta you had that ae spell thats is the same as ring of fire is to furies</FONT>, their<FONT color=#ff3300> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Bestial Feast spell which does aoe DoT damage to the encounter when target dies </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>not true pls examine our spells before you make assumptions this spell is a heal on death if you kill a mob with this spell casted on the mob it heals the person who killed the mob for like a hot of 80 wow insane eh?</FONT>, and their <FONT color=#ff3300>Thornskin does 20 aoe damage each time the target attacks </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>to be clear here its melee dmg and it procs when the target is indeed hit</FONT>, which adds up very quickly.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Furies also have a buff where it increases the STR and AGI of an ally and gives them a 10% chance to proc a 40% haste and 40% DPS increase </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>nice spell its single target tho so its only castable on 1 person</FONT> which can be really significant if casted on a Fighter.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Fury's water breathing spell also gives a small damage proc </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>not true our water breathing spell gives fish vision no dmg proc at all</FONT>, which although is insignificant most times, still contributes.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Templars have 0 ways to increase the damage of the group</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>hmm you say 0 and then come around naming 2 spells which do increase dmg but thats not the point you have heal procs etc. on buffs which we dont does defensive/offensive priest say anything to you?? </FONT>except by casting Praetorate, which is about a 5% DPS increase, and by casting Sacred Redoubt, which is about a 3% DPS increase to a single target.  I think this part is balanced because Templars shouldn't have ways to increase a group's DPS because their utilities spells are based on healing like Atoning Fate, Mark of Kings, and Glory of Combat.</P> <P> </P> <P>The part that isn't balanced is the overall potentcy of the Fury's core nukes (DD, AoE, and DoT) over a Templar.  <FONT color=#ff3300>Since SOE balanced the core heals, reactives, specialties, and regens to be the same </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>lol yeah right the core is balanced they balanced the direct heals but clearly still the extra heals templars have in forms of buffs proccing ac mitig health and the superiority of reactives in most cases and being able to put multiple reactives on 1 target as in solo reactive combined with group reactive which isnt wasted (in a normal group only the mt gets hit giving the mt all the procs of the group reactive)</FONT>, <FONT color=#ff0000>the damage nukes of all Priest classes should be the same </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>yeah right we have more int and you nuke faster than us and have other goodies</FONT>.  Your numbers again prove they clearly aren't.</P> <P> </P> <P>Furies DoT lasts 8s and ticks every 2s, which is way more effective than a Templar's because faster DoTs are always better than slower ones.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, not including damage shields and writing them off as insignificant is an oversight.  While soloing a multi-mob encounter, mobs can easily hit you 20+ times as a Priest, which would add...in a Furies case, 400 aoe damage which will more than nullify a mob's health regen rate.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00>Havent read this whole thing here as Im bored with these templar whinefests you do have utility in odyssey crowd control spells we have invis and sow both can be bought from a friendly merchant for around 50s oh yeah we should really pay for that and you should run around in the best armour (as in having the best choice the highest mitig might be broke atm will be fixed maxx out the stats easily and choose to have mitig or avoidance.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This was the 1st post I made on this thread and the reason why I reacted on this whole thing.</P> <P>Me saying we had to wait 8 months on a fix and your "frustration is nothing..."was because someone said <FONT color=#ff33cc>quote</FONT> :</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN></P> <BLOCKQUOTE><EM></EM> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Bah i grow so tired of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but here goes</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><EM></EM> <HR> The part that isn't balanced is the overall potentcy of the Fury's core nukes (DD, AoE, and DoT) over a Templar.  <FONT color=#ff3300>Since SOE balanced the core heals, reactives, specialties, and regens to be the same </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>lol yeah right the core is balanced they balanced the direct heals but clearly still the extra heals templars have in forms of buffs proccing ac mitig health and the superiority of reactives in most cases and being able to put multiple reactives on 1 target as in solo reactive combined with group reactive which isnt wasted (in a normal group only the mt gets hit giving the mt all the procs of the group reactive)</FONT>, <FONT color=#ff0000>the damage nukes of all Priest classes should be the same </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>yeah right we have more int and you nuke faster than us and have other goodies</FONT>.  Your numbers again prove they clearly aren't.</BLOCKQUOTE><EM></EM> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM>Likewise. Core is balanced and templar buff/utility count about 5 to 10% of templar healing plus since it is proccing, you really cannot trust it to proc when really needed. In addition our procs no longer buff mitigation so check your 'facts'. Reactives are not superior as there are many situations where HoT's are far better. True that in some situations reactives are better, but since that is not always the case, reactives are not superior.<BR><BR>My templar has 180 intelligence at lvl 54 and do about 140 dps against low yellow con single targets while soloing. My 'nukes' are all adept III's (as are heals) and I have 50% legendary and 50% treasured gear. So I am definately better than average geared. Similarly equipped (with less a3's though -  yes, I know, I am the guilds sage) fury in our guild (lvl 51) does 2,5 times my dps while soloing the same things I do.</EM><BR><BR><FONT color=#ff3399>So trust me, your boredom is nothing compared to my frustration on current situation. Give me a /reclass and I would pick a fury or warden in a heartbeat despite the plat I have used on my templar.</FONT><BR></SPAN></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats why I said your frustration is nothing compared to what frustration we had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please next time read the the whole thread and dont jump on the flame wagon like a [Removed for Content].</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div>Thats why I said your frustration is nothing compared to what frustration we had.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>So please next time read the the whole thread and dont jump on the flame wagon like a [Removed for Content].</div><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">10-31-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:46 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Like you did? What is exactly your point? That since you suffered, we should too? That is all I can figure from your posts. Or do you mean we should shut up about it even though you didn't? Sorry, you are the one who jumped the flame wagon the way you described.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Maybe the definition of a flame eludes you but where did I flame please enlighten me.</P> <P>Youre trying to start something? thats fine but lets continue it in pm's please as this is kinda pointless.</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <p>Maybe the definition of a flame eludes you but where did I flame please enlighten me.</p> <p>Youre trying to start something? thats fine but lets continue it in pm's please as this is kinda pointless.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">11-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:57 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Here is a hint: Read your own first post to this thread and replace each templar with fury and fury with templar from the text you wrote. And you are right, it is kind of pointless since you dont understand the implications you yourself make.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

oh man i replaced every templar with a fury and still dont see what you are all upset about I just corrected a post someone made which contained incorrect info whats the problem with that?

[Big Da]

<DIV> <P>Do you think Templars don’t have the right to discuss issues? You have already made your point about disagreeing with someone’s example and still you seem to think that how long it took to have your class addressed should somehow impact other classes. How long it took to get you class fixed or what problems you had are irrelevant unless you still have them. Challenging somebody to a PM slanging match could have been done in a PM but you wanted to make a point is suppose? If so please make the point and stop stirring up argument<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>.</FONT></P></DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Big Dave wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Do you think Templars don’t have the right to discuss issues? You have already made your point about disagreeing with someone’s example and still you seem to think that how long it took to have your class addressed should somehow impact other classes. How long it took to get you class fixed or what problems you had are irrelevant unless you still have them. Challenging somebody to a PM slanging match could have been done in a PM but you wanted to make a point is suppose? If so please make the point and stop stirring up argument<FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3>.</FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ohhh man you guys keep directing stuff at me and then you are surprised that i answer back?</P> <P>You make a big deal out of me saying we had to wait blabla but that was just one line of text and a reply to what someone says youre pulling it all out of context that line wasnt important at all it was a reaction on someone saying theyre waiting so long.</P> <P>You as templars have every right to disdcuss things what made you think I didnt want you to, I just would like it if before posting wrong info like the 1st post I replied to could be kept out of the discussion wouldnt you say something if you notice false infrormation being brought up into a discussion?</P> <P>Come on now, you know you would, bringing in furies into a discussion is ok but you couldve expected a fury to react to it if the info isnt all true.</P> <P>That pm comment was because if you aim something at me personally I would prefer it to be done in a pm as that was the way it was(is?) going.</P> <P>But I had enough some of you guys seem to love to argue I know i do too but not when theres nothing to argue about,</P> <P>so i sign off and gl to you all.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:55 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<DIV>Has anyone seen the monkey totems? they rock!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Folks, lets not flame each other as that will get this thread shut down. Thanks!</DIV>

[Big Da]

<DIV>Arent you supposed to hand out a piece of Energon with that sig? :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Dfoley3]

Just compring dps is useless, sure youll come up with the fact the templars do less dps then other priests, but does it consider the other aspects of being a priest?You cant just ask for a blanket upgrade to dps without considering the balance reprocutions it has. Clerics get - larger heals, more effecient reactives, higher mitg, they are the best healers to group with tanks. Alot more then just "my dps vs theirs" is weighed in on this stuff. If you increased templar dps, youd ahve to settle for furys/wardens heals being returned to being more powerful then yours. or something similar to draw the balance. Frankly, the argument is stale. the facts are simple, priest is the only class needed in 99.99% of all groups, you can even get away without figthers for about everything short of raids. Ive done poets not being able to hit or taunt anything and basicly let a conjurer tank and dps it all. Its because this is a MMO that grouping is so vital. Look at the dps teirs, the more needed for a group a class is the lower on the teir they are. Priests - fighters - bard/enc - rogue/conj - pred/sorc......amazing aint it, the classes that are less essential for a group do more dps. U can replace a ranger with about any class and still have a functioning group. You can only replace a templar with 5 other classes (all priests) and still have a functionable group.Im sorry yall dont do zomg dps, but id love to be a class with a 100% garunted group slot

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sutexi wrote:<div></div> <p>Why are furies and other priests coming here complaining, we dont want you get you nerf'ed. we want to get us improved.</p> <p>This has nothing to do with nerf;ing you, we just want a little something too.</p><hr></blockquote>Again, might I point out that such things are relative.  An increase to one class is effectively a nerf to all other classes that do not see the same increase.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:Just compring dps is useless, sure youll come up with the fact the templars do less dps then other priests, but does it consider the other aspects of being a priest?You cant just ask for a blanket upgrade to dps without considering the balance reprocutions it has. Clerics get - larger heals, more effecient reactives, higher mitg, they are the best healers to group with tanks. Alot more then just "my dps vs theirs" is weighed in on this stuff. If you increased templar dps, youd ahve to settle for furys/wardens heals being returned to being more powerful then yours. or something similar to draw the balance. Frankly, the argument is stale. the facts are simple, priest is the only class needed in 99.99% of all groups, you can even get away without figthers for about everything short of raids. Ive done poets not being able to hit or taunt anything and basicly let a conjurer tank and dps it all. Its because this is a MMO that grouping is so vital. Look at the dps teirs, the more needed for a group a class is the lower on the teir they are. Priests - fighters - bard/enc - rogue/conj - pred/sorc......amazing aint it, the classes that are less essential for a group do more dps. U can replace a ranger with about any class and still have a functioning group. You can only replace a templar with 5 other classes (all priests) and still have a functionable group.Im sorry yall dont do zomg dps, but id love to be a class with a 100% garunted group slot<hr></blockquote>The contention being made by Templars is that groups prefer other priest types over Templars because the others heal as well as a Templar but give other benefits, most commonly they reference Furies, who allegedly have incredible DPS while still providing healing.</span><div></div>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>  An increase to one class is effectively a nerf to all other classes that do not see the same increase.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh baloney.  Nobody is asking for some enormous buff here.  A small DPS increase or other offensive spell or whatever that would ease soloing like these guys are asking wouldn't affect anything at all.  You people act like templars are sitting here asking to out nuke wizards.</P> <P>I love it when people who don't play a class try to tell people who do that their class is fine, lol.</P> <P>And DFoley323, maybe an (alleged) guaranteed group slot is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some people.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a cleric =)</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And DFoley323, maybe an (alleged) guaranteed group slot is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some people.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a cleric =)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'll flip the tables on you:  roll a Ranger or Swashbuckler and see how long you stay on LFG compared to a Templar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gchang wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span>  An increase to one class is effectively a nerf to all other classes that do not see the same increase.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Oh baloney.  Nobody is asking for some enormous buff here.  A small DPS increase or other offensive spell or whatever that would ease soloing like these guys are asking wouldn't affect anything at all.  You people act like templars are sitting here asking to out nuke wizards.</p> <p>I love it when people who don't play a class try to tell people who do that their class is fine, lol.</p> <p>And DFoley323, maybe an (alleged) guaranteed group slot is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some people.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a cleric =)</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Apparently this is such a big deal that Templars are constantly posting about it, but such a little deal that other classes shouldn't be concerned about any potential changes causing imbalance.  Which is it? As for whether I play the class, I've already discussed this with you in another thread.  As I said there, my position as a tank allows me to evaluate the relvative differences between priest types better than a priest themselves, who have less oppurtunities to feel, first hand, the effects of other priest classes on them. And, Gchang, maybe an (alleged) significant DPS advantage is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some healers.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a Fury.</span><div></div>

[Gcha]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And DFoley323, maybe an (alleged) guaranteed group slot is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some people.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a cleric =)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'll flip the tables on you:  roll a Ranger or Swashbuckler and see how long you stay on LFG compared to a Templar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not arguing with that, although I do dispute that being a cleric is a guaranteed group spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is that the people who post here appear to like to solo a lot too.  I know I do.  As you know, soloing is fine as far as I am concerned.  But it is clear to me that a heck of a lot of templars don't think so.  I'd say thrown them a little bone.  I don't think it would hurt anything.  And if you need to throw a couple other priest classes some little bones too, I doubt it would be the end of the world.  This is about fun, and apparently it's not enough fun to quite a few people.  A little offensive bone isn't going to threaten the middle range DPS classes, and certainly not the high ones.</DIV>

[Gcha]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dfoley323 wrote:<BR>Just compring dps is useless, sure youll come up with the fact the templars do less dps then other priests, but does it consider the other aspects of being a priest?<BR><BR>You cant just ask for a blanket upgrade to dps without considering the balance reprocutions it has. <BR><BR>Clerics get - larger heals, more effecient reactives, higher mitg, they are the best healers to group with tanks. Alot more then just "my dps vs theirs" is weighed in on this stuff. If you increased templar dps, youd ahve to settle for furys/wardens heals being returned to being more powerful then yours. or something similar to draw the balance. <BR><BR>Frankly, the argument is stale. the facts are simple, priest is the only class needed in 99.99% of all groups, you can even get away without figthers for about everything short of raids. Ive done poets not being able to hit or taunt anything and basicly let a conjurer tank and dps it all. Its because this is a MMO that grouping is so vital. <BR><BR>Look at the dps teirs, the more needed for a group a class is the lower on the teir they are. Priests - fighters - bard/enc - rogue/conj - pred/sorc......amazing aint it, the classes that are less essential for a group do more dps. U can replace a ranger with about any class and still have a functioning group. You can only replace a templar with 5 other classes (all priests) and still have a functionable group.<BR><BR>Im sorry yall dont do zomg dps, but id love to be a class with a 100% garunted group slot<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>we get larger heals, true, with longer cast times and higher power costs and larger recast times. Reactives are NO MORE EFFICIENT than any other specialty heal. Templars are not the best to group with tanks but that is another story. Furies group regen is already up to 4 times as powerful as a group reactive. How much more powerful do they need to be.You are right, look at the DPS tiers, it is Priests, I do not see Furies listed above tanks (who they currently out DPS) Priests should be EQUAL.</P> <P>Any class can get a group, My Conjuror has no problems getting groups, my monk has no problems, My warlock has no problems, only my Templar has problems now. Sure if a group needs a healer they will take a Templar, but since the revamp, i have been asked to leave groups and now even a raid in favor of a Fury. Does not make me very happy, even though I understand why.</P>

[Kendricke]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And DFoley323, maybe an (alleged) guaranteed group slot is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some people.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a cleric =)<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'll flip the tables on you:  roll a Ranger or Swashbuckler and see how long you stay on LFG compared to a Templar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not arguing with that, although I do dispute that being a cleric is a guaranteed group spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is that the people who post here appear to like to solo a lot too.  I know I do.  As you know, soloing is fine as far as I am concerned.  But it is clear to me that a heck of a lot of templars don't think so.  I'd say thrown them a little bone.  I don't think it would hurt anything.  And if you need to throw a couple other priest classes some little bones too, I doubt it would be the end of the world.  This is about fun, and apparently it's not enough fun to quite a few people.  A little offensive bone isn't going to threaten the middle range DPS classes, and certainly not the high ones.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The idea I've forwarded to the developers through use of /feedback is the self-only "holy aura" damage shield.  Just realize that we can't gain without giving - either by removing something we already have (which you may be fine with, but I guarantee you that there's a significant number of clerics who won't enjoy losing any spell you mention), or by giving more to other classes (which could potentially mean giving a new, similar spell to every priest - or even every other class regardless of archetype.)</P> <P>P.S. - By comparison to a Ranger, I'd say that Templars are as close to guaranteed a grouping spot as any class could be.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR>Sokolov, even if you have a small amountt of knowledge from observing templars in groups, but we all know how dangerous a little knowledge can be =)  And you don't have a clue what it's like for them to solo.  So why you continue to post on threads which largely pertain to their soloing ability escapes me.  Do you want to keep clerics weak soloers for your own purposes, so they'll be more available for you =)  There is just nothing that's going to happen here to threaten warlock's position in the DPS tree, so relax.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Argue the points, not the one making them, please.  There's no room for personal attacks here.  <BR>

[Panthian]

<P>Basic fact that you can't compare class DPS to another specific classes DPS.  You have to take a look at the total picture to get balance.</P> <P>So look at the following areas that determine balance and figure out what you want to give up:</P> <P>Armor type and selection</P> <P>DPS</P> <P>Healing</P> <P>Buffing</P> <P>Debuffing</P> <P>Utility</P> <P> </P> <P>You will find that you won't give up anything to get an increase in something else.  Most templars are more then able to complain about not getting DPS close to a Warden or Fury but at the same time won't give up anything in return.   Flame all you want because the truth hurts.</P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gchang wrote:<blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Gchang wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span>  An increase to one class is effectively a nerf to all other classes that do not see the same increase.</span> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Oh baloney.  Nobody is asking for some enormous buff here.  A small DPS increase or other offensive spell or whatever that would ease soloing like these guys are asking wouldn't affect anything at all.  You people act like templars are sitting here asking to out nuke wizards.</p> <p>I love it when people who don't play a class try to tell people who do that their class is fine, lol.</p> <p>And DFoley323, maybe an (alleged) guaranteed group slot is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some people.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a cleric =)</p> <hr> </blockquote>Apparently this is such a big deal that Templars are constantly posting about it, but such a little deal that other classes shouldn't be concerned about any potential changes causing imbalance.  Which is it?As for whether I play the class, I've already discussed this with you in another thread.  As I said there, my position as a tank allows me to evaluate the relvative differences between priest types better than a priest themselves, who have less oppurtunities to feel, first hand, the effects of other priest classes on them.And, Gchang, maybe an (alleged) significant DPS advantage is not the be-all and end-all of gaming existence for some healers.  If it is for you, fabulous, by all means roll a Fury.</span> <hr> </blockquote>Sokolov, even if you have a small amountt of knowledge from observing templars in groups, but we all know how dangerous a little knowledge can be =)  And you don't have a clue what it's like for them to solo.  So why you continue to post on threads which largely pertain to their soloing ability escapes me.  Do you want to keep clerics weak soloers for your own purposes, so they'll be more available for you =)  There is just nothing that's going to happen here to threaten warlock's position in the DPS tree, so relax. <hr></blockquote></span><span>Most of what I reply has to do with the relative preception of usefuless of non-healing abilities of priest classes.  The constant references to the "utility" of Druids in addition to DPS suggests to me that this is more than just "a little bit of DPS" issue.</span> <span> For the record, I don't like soloing.  Nor do I really play my warlock, except to work on Jewellery.</span><div></div>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR>Sokolov, even if you have a small amountt of knowledge from observing templars in groups, but we all know how dangerous a little knowledge can be =)  And you don't have a clue what it's like for them to solo.  So why you continue to post on threads which largely pertain to their soloing ability escapes me.  Do you want to keep clerics weak soloers for your own purposes, so they'll be more available for you =)  There is just nothing that's going to happen here to threaten warlock's position in the DPS tree, so relax.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Argue the points, not the one making them, please.  There's no room for personal attacks here.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think we've covered this.  This is not kindergarten.  The scope of his knowledge and experience is very relevant to what he posts.  I think so, and others think so, and if you don't. that's your business.  Everyone on earth but you is going to consider the experience and expertise of the speaker in evaulating opinions.  If you and the people to whom you report posts don't like what I say, somebody can sure feel free to delete it.  Personally, I don't report posts.  Can't see the need =)

[Kendricke]

There's a huge difference between "<EM>consider the exp</EM>erience" and "<EM>you don't have a clue</EM>". 

[Gcha]

<DIV>Unfortunately, you don't control the world, Kendricke.  Things would be a lot better if you'd simply realize that and start showing respect for others around here.  These are adults, and they speak to each other like adults.  I don't know why that's such a problem for you.  You must have grown up in an extremely sheltered environment.  Act like an adult already.  You can go to practically any other section of even the EQ2 boards and see adults conversing like adults without one person trying to control everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you want to report me, as you no doubt will as usual, feel free to report yourself for what you fully knew was flame bait.</DIV>

[Dfoley3]

This is a MMO.  By definition, thats a massive multiplayer online game.  Now the fact that there are solo mobs at all is a step above and beyond about EVERY other MMO there is.   As for furies, pft id like to see a fury out dps me (a monk).  I crank out 280 dps with auto attack alone on raid mobs, and far and none, any priest nukeing on a raid is more then likely gonna get scolded.  Now if your talking about the dmg potential other priests add to a group, thats different.   Wardens and fury add much more dmg potential to their group mates through dps , skill mods, and proc buffs.  Shamans add mediocer dps buffs through stat modifiers.  And clerics add slim to none.   Im sorry you chose a class that is predominatly a grouping class, but those are the dice you rolled.  Priest is by far THE MOST group oriented class.   Not trying to be rude but its very obvious REALLY early in the game that priests will be grouping a LOT and not very efficent at soloing.   Speaking of strictly solo mobs...scouts and most mages can blow them up fast, in return dont get hit to well.  Fighters can do mediocer dps while regulating the dps intake, and priests can pretty much last forever at the expense they do very lil dps. Theres a very strict continum, its very obvious at all levels of play and i think priests fit the continum very well, the fact that templars do the worst dps is reflected perfectly. Heavy armor = best mitigation incase of lose mobs reactives = best type of heal for mitigation tanks (4/6 tanks) strongest single target heals = hm best armor and best heals, and most efficent heals on 4/6 tanks... Just look at furys leather armor = rares of all raid loot, low mitgation for spikey avoidance (well below brawlers) fast casting heals that require time to heal for their full effect...not all that useful on a tank whos at 10% is it group dps utility yes they have more dps utility in a group, yes their nukes are slightly stronger, but last i checked being able to save a tank at 10% health or 20% or 30% or whatever to instantly get them healed is far more potent then having half the heal up front and the other half over the next 20 seconds. i honestly thing a lot of the complaining about templar dps is un called for, priests arent soloing classes, they can but its never been efficent and this is 100000% due to how easy all priests get groups.  if your a priest and you want to solo, it would be wiser, safer, smarter, and more efficent to just dou.  its just upseting to see a class thats 100% essential for groups and the determing factor in raids, be upset that they arent good solo dps.   Thats like a scout saying they are upset they dont heal better. <div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Why are you guys calling for dps? why?</P> <P>We are healers, we heal, there are 2 entire archtypes for dmg if you want to do dps. Just because all classes cans olo it doesnt mean we should all do the same dps, kill as quick as each other and be capable of soloing the same stuff.</P> <P>We can solo fine, we can solo undead at a pretty decent speed but why do people want to solo so much when its an MMO anyway!</P> <P>We are a grouping based archtype, we shine in raids. Our main purpose is to heal and cure.</P> <P>Call for better heals call for better buffs call for better debuffs, hell call for utility, but DONT call for dps.</P> <P>Most of us would rather have no nukes at all and be a pure healer because we chose a priest to heal, if you want dps, maybe you should try another class that does dps and a little healing or will you go to them and call for better healing?</P> <P> </P> <P>Well atleast you give us all a lol in serverwide asking for Templar dps :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>If you want to start a decent thread for the Templar community stop posting threads all over about Templar dps vs Fury (give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) and try asking for some spell fixes which are FAR more important, hopefully we can get the devs attention on these issues some of them very old rather than having them ignore us all because you want to whine about Furies and dps.</P>

[Gcha]

<P>As I have said repeatedly, and again a couple posts up, I personally have no complaints about soloing.  But a lot of templars obviously do, from the threads in this forum.  I don't understand why some are so opposed to SOE throwing a class a minor bone which will simply increase their playing enjoyment.  What's the big deal.  Nobody is asking to be wizards here.  Nobody is even asking to equal Furies, despite the fact that some like to repeatedly imply that.</P> <P>From my perspective, I wouldn't want to destroy game balance, but I just don't see how a minor buff is going to do that - maybe they could even come up with something that people could only use while soloing. If a lot of templars, or any other class for that matter, feel they need some minor boost to fully enjoy the game, I can't see the harm.  Those who don't want it can simply not use it.</P> <P>And nope, Dfoley323, having solo mobs is not remotely a departure from "EVERY other MMO there is".  It's the norm.  The only exception is EQ, and even EQ had a limited amount of it.  Heck I could solo my EQ cleric pretty decently until around the mid 50s.  People can solo quite productively in UO, AC, AC2, DAOC, WOW, AO, GW, SWG and undoubtedly more I am not thinking of at the moment.  Moreover, EQ2 was represented and sold as a game where everyone would be able to solo productively.</P>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>If the choice is "<EM>more damage</EM>" or "<EM>no change</EM>", then sure, I'm all for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the choice is "<EM>more damage <STRONG>and </STRONG>less healing</EM>" or "<EM>no change</EM>", then I'll take no change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kayle]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>The idea I've forwarded to the developers through use of /feedback is the self-only "holy aura" damage shield. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I read that idea weeks ago.  It was Dananeb's idea: </P> <P>"<EM>Give priests an offensive stance, let it cost 5 concentration points and let the end result become a semi tanking/nuking priest that kills solo mobs in half the time they do now. This stance could have a melee proc, lower the performance of beneficial spells while making offensive spells more effective.</EM></P> <P><EM>When making the stance 5 concentration it takes away the usage of this in groups unless the particular healer is not there for heals/buffs but joined as a damage/support/debuffer.</EM></P> <P><EM>As most healers have said, its not that they cant kill solo encounters, its just that it takes so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] long that it puts them asleep.</EM></P> <P><EM>There could even be a 4 sec debuff(resist) debuff with the proc, making nukes cast in these 4 second hit for almost max each time, this would allow more effecienty from people that pay attention</EM>."</P> <P>URL: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=73429&view=by_date_ascending&page=4" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=73429&view=by_date_ascending&page=4</A></P> <P>But you already saw that thread, you're in it.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dfoley323 wrote:Just compring dps is useless, sure youll come up with the fact the templars do less dps then other priests, but does it consider the other aspects of being a priest?You cant just ask for a blanket upgrade to dps without considering the balance reprocutions it has. Clerics get - larger heals, more effecient reactives, higher mitg, they are the best healers to group with tanks. Alot more then just "my dps vs theirs" is weighed in on this stuff. If you increased templar dps, youd ahve to settle for furys/wardens heals being returned to being more powerful then yours. or something similar to draw the balance. <hr></blockquote>Sigh. Largest heals - yes, longest recast times - yes. Higher mitigatio - yes, lower avoidance -yes (= more interrupts while encounters do equal damage on us than others). Best healers to group with tanks - no. We are at our best when grouped with mt, but we are not the best choice to group with mt. So why dont you try again.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>AzraelAzgard wrote:<p>Why are you guys calling for dps? why?</p><hr></blockquote>You will understand once you get to DoF zones.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div>If the choice is "<em>more damage</em>" or "<em>no change</em>", then sure, I'm all for it.</div> <div> </div> <div>If the choice is "<em>more damage <strong>and </strong>less healing</em>" or "<em>no change</em>", then I'll take no change.</div> <hr></blockquote>Why should the choice be the latter? Furies got more healing and took no hit on damage. So for balances sake, we should have more dps without a change to healing. Like I have said several times, the base damage our nukes do, should be equal between all priest classes just like healing is now balanced. This is not the case as fury nukes do twice the damage our nukes do plus they can buff their int more which effectively means the end result is triple. If healing classes were to be balanced, furies should do only 50% more dps than templars due to int buffs and templar with high intelligence should be able to out dps a fury that has focused on wisdom. That would be balance between priests and mean that our utility and the gear we focus on defines our class, not just the name of the class. As it is, 'templar' = slightly better healing due to utility and massively worse dps just because we are templars. DPS oriented healers get utility to enchange dps and they get far better nukes to begin with while they get the same starting healing power we do.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <P>We can solo fine, we can solo undead at a pretty decent speed but why do people want to solo so much when its an MMO anyway!</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why does it being an MMO mean we should not want to solo? Constantly there are always a few who make this ridiculous remark. Just because you do not wish to solo hunt, you cannot force everyone else not to want to. If you have not worked out yet why most players (of all classes) love to be able to solo some of the time, and wish to be able to on approximately equal terms, you have a lot to learn. But to sum up part of the reason really simply for you, people do not all have or want guilds, and do not all have fixed groups of friends to group with, and sitting *DOING NOTHING* is a lot less fun than solo hunting.</P> <P>As for "we can solo fine", I am not sure what you mean by fine, but when I can see ANOTHER PRIEST CLASS (not just wizards, etc) soloing XP at three times the rate I can as a Templar, then I do not define that as "fine" or "balanced". This is not rumour or random numbers. I have done it, and I am doing it, with a Fury now, but I do not accept that it is balanced that one PRIEST can solo that much better than another. The reason for all these posts is to show the Devs (not you) how imbalanced this is and how much many of us (clearly not including you) are unhappy with it.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <P>We are a grouping based archtype, we shine in raids. Our main purpose is to heal and cure.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The healing part is ... obvious. But what is a "grouping based archetype"? LOL. There is no such thing. It is a nonsense put about by the few people who do not like to solo themselves, in an attempt to ridicule other players. Very nice. SoE have stated publically (no I do not have the quote to hand, but Im sure someone will find it) that they intend all classes to be able to solo. There is no "grouping only class" and never was. All you are doing here is publically attacking players who love to solo, in an attempt to ridicule, there is no excuse for it, and it is not helpful or constructive.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <P>Most of us would rather have no nukes at all and be a pure healer because we chose a priest to heal,</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which "most of us" would that be again? Yes, most of us made a TEMPLAR (a priest, but not ANY priest) to be the BEST (not the equal) healer and accepted less in other areas. Other players chose classes like FURY (also a priest, but not a Templar) to be able to do DAMAGE and to be able to heal, and the most realistic of them realized that this meant being somewhat lesser as healers than Templars. But incase you missed it, LU13 removed the large advantage in healing power of the Templar class, leaving those huge number of us who love to solo and small group (YES, we are out here) with a class that does not balance at all with those other PRIESTS (nor bringing other archetypes even into this). Which leaves us sitting LFG *and* poorer soloers by far at the same time. And you wonder why we might be unhappy? Duh!</P> <P>And you want our nukes removed? I have no comment to make on that that the moderator would tolerate, so I will say nothing.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <P>Well atleast you give us all a lol in serverwide asking for Templar dps</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well I'm glad you enjoy ridiculing your colleagues and enjoying the fact that we have been nerfed in our playstyle we love. Keep up the marvelously constructive posts. The rest of us (you know, the hundreds of us out here) will just wince when we read this kind of post. I've read some great out-of-touch posts on these boards, but that post is one of the best.</P> <P>Felishanna</P>

[SatinyCh]

<DIV>Well yeah, we have a good laugh about these arguements because we're the Templars who actually work hard at our class and devote quite a bit more time to it then y'all. Sure, we may play too much. Sure, you have valid points with asking for DPS, but we're the ones who stayed loyal and have kept playing our class to its' best potential. Soooo, I think we have a bit of an entitlement to have a few laughs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could waste my time replying to everyone elses' points, but you're all just beating a dead horse with this DPS issue, with the 200000000000 threads started.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will repeat my statement that I made when this first came about. Go ahead and quit playing your templar, you'll make it a unique class again. Let the 10% of us do the hard work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Caethre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SatinyChef wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well yeah, we have a good laugh about these arguements because we're the Templars who actually work hard at our class and devote quite a bit more time to it then y'all. Sure, we may play too much. Sure, you have valid points with asking for DPS, but we're the ones who stayed loyal and have kept playing our class to its' best potential. Soooo, I think we have a bit of an entitlement to have a few laughs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could waste my time replying to everyone elses' points, but you're all just beating a dead horse with this DPS issue, with the 200000000000 threads started.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will repeat my statement that I made when this first came about. Go ahead and quit playing your templar, you'll make it a unique class again. Let the 10% of us do the hard work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How about a bit of realization that as a extreme hardcore raider, you are in the tiny 1% of gamers? Your opinions and experiences are totally out of touch with the rest of us, because you are playing a different game. I mean no disrespect to your choices, you may play as you wish, but you are really in the worst possible position to be speaking on subjects from a perspective where you cannot grasp at a basic level the way in which most of us play, and therefore our interests and priorities.</P> <P>But you would be mistaken that you "work harder". Many of us "casuals" who have no interest in raiding still play excessive (read: stupid, I agree) numbers of hours, and work extremely hard on the things *we* consider important (even though you do not). You would be a brave person to believe you had more playtime on your Templar than I have on mine, for example. If you have, it cannot be as much as you think, trust me on this.</P> <P>As for quitting, there is another option. That option is to campaign, test, post, complain, post some more, and get something done about it if at all possible. That is why there are so many posts on these subjects. That is why there will continue to be more and more. Calling for us to "stop posting" is not going to happen, all you can do if you do not like it is ... stop reading. We post because ... we care. If we didn't, we'd just move on to another class, or another game.</P> <P>Felishanna.</P>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>-double-</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:50 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Caethre stop saying you know everything about the fury class by playing a 28 fury lol come on here maybe you can post some numbers on the fury board as I asked you to (this is about your nukes/dots only):</P> <P>int:</P> <P>dmg:</P> <P>cast/recast:</P> <P>powercost:</P> <P>secondary effect(which furies dont have on their nukes):</P> <P> </P> <P>All this babbling by people who dont have a clue about the fury class is just so ignorant, healing might be a bit balanced but your healing utility outshines our offensive utility by far part of this unbalance in utility has been balanced by giving furies some added damage (also counting the fact you wear diff armor as in more choice).</P> <P>Also even when doing damage yourself youre being defensive on one of your nukes it has a stun as a sec effect (might be underpowered but ask for that to get fixed or something) you got quite a few pacify/stun spells which we dont have those are a way to avoid some damage too if you get in a tough situation again if this is broken ask for it to be fixed upgraded whatsoever (as this is the way soe envisioned templars you might not like this mezzing and all).</P> <P>Im all for more solo dps for templars but asking for more dps while staying the way you are now def wise, youre asking to be a templar-fury hybrid here if you want heal and  be offensive go fury if you want heal and defensive go templar.</P> <P>People are falling all over each other here one person a templar says we suck furies solo 3 times as fast and everyone takes his/her word for it and takes it as a fact.</P> <P>MG clearly said some classes were better suited for soloing furies always were good soloers (that got most of us to 50 btw) and templars were always slow soloers, why?</P> <P>because of our offensive and your templar's defense you cant kill a mob fast with a good defense.</P> <P>Its just that the constant exaggeration of numbers and all the yes-people are so disturbing dont look what others got all the time look at what you got for a change too.</P> <P>ps. I dont say I know everything about the templar class so you can attack me on that but at least I dont pretend to as some people on here do.</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div>ps. I dont say I know everything about the templar class so you can attack me on that but at least I dont pretend to as some people on here do. <div></div><hr></blockquote>ROFL. Actually that is exactly what you are saying. You dont have even lvl 28 templar and you still think you know things better than templars. Why dont you tell us about templar damage, durations, power costs etc.? After all, you are the one who is claiming that one person is wrong because of the 'only' lvl 28 fury and high level templar... Roll a templar and back up your claims. Or go away like you promised earlier.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Hmm Tim maybe thats why I asked a lvl 53 templar to post her numbers on the fury boards?</P> <P>Man youre an ignorant one arent you lol geez why would I ask for numbers you think? to see what templars do for myself.</P> <P>And how is comparing numbers of a 28 templar gonna help anything were talking bout 50-60 game here at least imo.</P>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quetzaqotl, you are trolling. This is not about 'me' and I do not need more of your personal attacks, I've had enough of them. The statistics of the spells on the spell-list are not special for me either, they are PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. Yes, I could go trawl and print them all out for you, but at this moment I cannot find motivation to do so, but I have already posted a few for you on the thread you are referring to (even if you chase me here to try to FORCE me to do it for you).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Undead and Elementals are irrelevant, lets talk about ALL mobs. INT and WIS are irrelevant too to a class comparison, because they work the same way for both classes. The stats of my own baby Fury are also irrelevent (she is equipped in utter junk, so they are terrible by the way). Just look at the spell BASE stats, damage, range, casting time, etc, on the spell descriptions. It is not complex.</DIV> <P>Every Templar and Fury alike who is not blind can see the 'bleedin' obvious' from those alone - Fury nukes are in the range 2x to 3x as strong as Templar nukes, depending on your level, and this leads to the often repeated parse results of up to 90dps or so for Templars and 400 dps or so for Furies. Look on the Fury board for all the Furies claiming that DPS, don't come to me for it. You are on really bad ground here, it is not even debated that Furies have DPS that is far far beyond what a Templar can ever manage.</P> <P>Felishanna</P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>I know that furies have more dps as <STRONG>we</STRONG> are offensive healers and no Im not a troll as you keep calling me I just want some proof of the HUGE imbalance you guys are talking about talk about personal insults calling me names yourself on the boards and in a pm so pls dont pretend to be ms nice girl/guy here.</P> <P>Id just like to see someone proof that theres this big imbalance or balance with utility heals etc. thats a big task I know but if everyone will contribute it can be done but I guess so many are stuck with this one track set of mind and keep following people without questioning about if what theyre believing is really the truth.</P> <P>As for me being on bad ground well you should know by now, I dont care Ill keep posting whenever I see something that is imo untrue or unproven.</P> <P>Youre posting on the fury boards too and keep comparing your low lvl fury with your high lvl templar and that imo is whacked only saying we are equal only for dps is shortsighted at least imo.</P> <P>Youre not posting how much fun your fury is having compared to what your templar at that lvl would do (without even knowing what a 28 templar does that bothers me) to make a good comparison (as that is unpossible with the lvl diff) you just try to get the templar class riled up (as you are yourself prolly) about the great imbalance there supposedly is and feed this anger (which in return doesnt really make the fury community happy, we didnt show this amount of anger towards you months ago but whatever).</P> <DIV>(Just because some people follow this "believe" that something is unbalanced doesnt make it a fact there have been enough examples in history to prove that.)</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <p>Hmm Tim maybe thats why I asked a lvl 53 templar to post her numbers on the fury boards?</p> <p>Man youre an ignorant one arent you lol geez why would I ask for numbers you think? to see what templars do for myself.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>ROFL. Lets see what exactly you wrote... You said 'come here and...' Do you have any idea where you posted that? That is right, you posted it on templar board. Thus 'here' is in the templar board. You also were referring to a lvl 28 fury and told the poster to post numbers. This means you wanted to know fury numbers. Of course you could learn to express yourself in a way that doesn't make you look like a troll.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>quetzaqotl wrote:<div>(Just because some people follow this "believe" that something is unbalanced doesnt make it a fact there have been enough examples in history to prove that.)</div><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">11-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">04:23 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Ok, lets make it the other way. Since you are convinced that we are not balanced, why dont you prove that. I am sure you ahve read the other posts on this part of the forums so you well know the reasons why we think templars are unbalanced. But you haven't given us any reasons to think otherwise. All you do is rant and troll with nothing to back up anything you say.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Lol tim show me the feedback and how you contributed by whining and trolling??</P> <P>And "lets not make it the other way" what do you think lol <STRONG>I </STRONG>dont have to give feedback here as Im not the one saying how broken I am as clearly Im not and Im happy with how furies are now the people who have to give feedback are the ones saying "were unbalanced!" show me how youre unbalanced then.</P> <P>Post numbers and Ill post mine np, but do you expect a class that isnt broken anymore to give you feedback on posts that dont have any content or are based on opinions?</P> <P>All I hear is soe said we all heal equal then why do furies do more dmg???</P> <P>Well if you really wonder why maybe you should dig deep into your spell hat and go and see whats in there what furies have not maybe then you can come to some sort of a conclusion yourself, but all you are right now is just another yes-person following in the herd.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:37 AM</span>

[Big Da]

<P>Sounds fair to me, if you think there is no problem or there may be no problem ... show us the numbers.</P> <P><BR>The onus isn’t on Templars to prove this problem to random forum posters. With this much noise about an issue I’m sure it hasn’t escaped the notice of the developers. Which I expect was the objective in the first place. Posting numbers may speed up the process, but I expect when developers have time they will carry out their own investigations.</P> <P><BR>As a side point I believe Templars solo quite slow, but I also believe any templar who can’t heal better than or at least on a par with a fury has some issues with their play style. In my experience Fury healing is still not better then ours. It is just increased to the level where they have a nice chance of keeping the group alive i.e. performing their primary role.</P> <P><BR>As far as raw healing numbers go furies heal more hp for power, however in my experience they cannot react quickly to changes in situation and end up wasting most of their heals. I assume that’s why they have higher heal numbers, to make up for that waste. Furies also tend to die quicker if they gain agro.<BR>It was once the case you could almost ignore the fight and stack on reactives; you just can’t do that anymore, which is a good thing in my opinion this doesn’t mean we can’t heal.</P> <P><BR>I for one love having a fury as an additional healer in the group the heals can compliment each other quite well and we can give each other the space to get some debuffs in when fighting.<BR></P>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>To Bigdave:</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes I know its the sqeaky wheel technique seen that one before and of course it has a good chance to work.</P> <P>Its not up to me to show the world how unbalanced templars supposedly are thats something you have to do for yourself I did my (small) part in showing the devs what was wrong with the fury class (without throwing mud I d like to say).</P> <P>This is NOT my crusade its yours, if you post numbers however and like to know how this balances against furies Id be more than happy to post numbers too.</P> <P>But I just feel i have to react to posts which dont show the whole picture, you would do too Im sure.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:50 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <p>To Bigdave:</p> <p>Yes I know its the sqeaky wheel technique seen that one before and of course it has a good chance to work.</p> <p>Its not up to me to show the world how unbalanced templars supposedly are thats something you have to do for yourself I did my (small) part in showing the devs what was wrong with the fury class (without throwing mud I d like to say).</p><hr></blockquote>Here is my lvl 54 templar dps with average gear, adept I average nuke and 80 intelligence : Soloing 80dps, grouping 30dps if there is no need to heal. After I used about 20 plat for upgrades, I got legendary gear with some treasured +int gear, adept III nukes (exept one app4) and 190 intelligence : soloing 140dps and grouping 50dps. And those are maximum dps I got while playing. Now show us your numbers.</span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>And AGAIN you are comparing dps only like we are mages or something warlocks and wizards might come away with that as doing damage is their primary function priests however... that doesnt show what imbalance there is really.</P> <P>show me how we are all balanced in the healing dept/utility etc thats the important one as I see our dmg and dmg enhancing as part of our damage utility as we dont have that much dmg enhancing as before (solo: yes in group: no).</P> <P>and if its really true everything is balanced comparing dps would be me without my offensive buffs against you but you'd have to convince me that we are all balanced overall.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:05 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>And AGAIN you are comparing dps only like we are mages or something warlocks and wizards might come away with that as doing damage is their primary function priests however... that doesnt show what imbalance there is really.</p> <p>show me how we are all balanced in the healing dept/utility etc thats the important one as I see our dmg and dmg enhancing as part of our damage utility as we dont have that much dmg enhancing as before (solo: yes in group: no).</p> <p>and if its really true everything is balanced comparing dps would be me without my offensive buffs against you but you'd have to convince me that we are all balanced overall.</p><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class="date_text">11-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:05 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well why dont you make yourself useful and compare the other stuff. BTW this has never been about healing disparity.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>And AGAIN you are comparing dps only like we are mages or something warlocks and wizards ...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you value DPS as so unimportant, why are you not starting a CAMPAIGN to get all Fury nukes reduced to Templar levels? I mean, you are a healer, you don't need nukes at all.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would oppose such a campaign as well of course, but then again, I value DPS, on both classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>Posting dps numbers isnt very useful in a full comparison it would be semi useful (tho comparing parsed dps isnt that hot if not in a clean setup, would be better to just parse + add spell descriptions/nrs).</DIV> <DIV>But focussing on one class's speciality next to healing and comparing that to a templars non existent speciality (as they arent an offensive class) isnt very fair is it wed have to parse naked if indeed all utility is balanced <STRONG>if</STRONG> all is balanced and furies do more dps naked (without our offensive buffs) there has to be some balancing that I can agree on.</DIV> <DIV>But again how are we all balanced and who says what is more valuable more dps or more heals(as in preventing dmg/utility).</DIV>

[Big Da]

<P><SPAN>Why then come here and take or an argumentative and a frankly obtuse attitude?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>It is always on you to prove your point or it is equally invalid as those you dispute. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>If you want to be helpful then please stop derailing threads by hammering home the show “me some numbers” mantra. You have said it and it doesn’t become and more valid through repetition. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Throwing mud is exactly what you are provoking here and I’m sure you are aware of that. You have previously stated you love to argue but do it with at least a little consideration for those who feel they have a genuine issue.</SPAN></P> <P>Players do not have the resources available to carry out balanced tests, spell quality, armour level etc all come in to play. At this stage player impression from a significant number of Templars should be enough to warrant at least a brief check. The value of threads such as this in my experience is to see how many people are willing to add their weight to the claim.</P> <P>I do not want to see player figures as they are invariably flawed at one point or other, I think the only response needed is investigation by the professionals to confirm if this is an issue.</P> <P>I am almost certain that the figures posted by yourself had little or no impact on developers decisions when compared to another post discussing the issue, although it may have fuelled the debate somewhat.</P> <P>As far as this being my crusade, it isn’t, I am certainly interested in the issue but have no problem with my soloing ability. That being said I have mostly adept 3 and master level spells.</P> <p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:26 PM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>And AGAIN you are comparing dps only like we are mages or something warlocks and wizards ...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you value DPS as so unimportant, why are you not starting a CAMPAIGN to get all Fury nukes reduced to Templar levels? I mean, you are a healer, you don't need nukes at all.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would oppose such a campaign as well of course, but then again, I value DPS, on both classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dps is a furies'sec expertise and you should know that having a fury alt yourself so I DO value my damage, but you cant honestly claim you picked your class for the damage??!</P> <P>You knew templars would be quite a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to solo (tho Id like to see that changed I have np with that), your class is as defensive as they come how are you gonna kill a mob quick with great defense hmmm let them burn their mana? is that quick? no but noone said all classes should be able to solo as effectively, I mean I solo fine but a wizard owns me on that dept. too.</P> <P>To bigdave:</P> <P>I can understand that and Ill try to back off a little we agree on it ebing near impossible for players to be able to see the balance in classes.</P> <P>Thats all I wanted to say: who says we are all balanced except for dps??! maybe the dps furies have over templars is part of the greater balance.</P> <P>A dev could come and shine some light on it but I doubt they will.</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div>ps. I dont say I know everything about the templar class so you can attack me on that but at least I dont pretend to as some people on here do. <div></div><hr></blockquote>ROFL. Actually that is exactly what you are saying. You dont have even lvl 28 templar and you still think you know things better than templars. Why dont you tell us about templar damage, durations, power costs etc.? After all, you are the one who is claiming that one person is wrong because of the 'only' lvl 28 fury and high level templar... Roll a templar and back up your claims. Or go away like you promised earlier.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I am still confused by how one specifc healing class professes to be knowledgeable about the entire archetype balance when it is unlikely such a player would have experienced all the healing classes.  This is even compounded by the fact that if a Templar groups with a Fury or another priest class, the way the other priest class heals is significantly altered by the presence of the Templar even just by his buffs. I suppose only Templars are allowed to say how Furies have too much DPS, but other classes can't make observations. *boggle*</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>I suppose only Templars are allowed to say how Furies have too much DPS, but other classes can't make observations. *boggle*<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I challenge you to find even one post here saying Furies "have too much DPS". What everyone is saying here is "templars have <FONT color=#ff0000>far</FONT> too little DPS, given that Furies now have almost equal healing".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<span>I suppose only Templars are allowed to say how Furies have too much DPS, but other classes can't make observations. *boggle*</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I am sure you boggle mr. Strawman2 </span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:OOC. <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span>I suppose only Templars are allowed to say how Furies have too much DPS, but other classes can't make observations. *boggle*</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>I challenge you to find even one post here saying Furies "have too much DPS". What everyone is saying here is "templars have <font color="#ff0000">far</font> too little DPS, given that Furies now have almost equal healing".</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Half full, half empty.</span><div></div>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Accurate statement, inaccurate statement =)</DIV>

[Panthian]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Truffor]

I Have been harvesting a bit this afternoon. I'm 55 templar with some int stuff, adept 3 spells and Master I Mark of King. Every time I had been bothered by a greeny 46ish one downarrow, it took me 30sec to get rid of it. Saying "Templar are not designed for soloing", "Don't tell me you choosed templar for DPS" and such BS is not something you could put somewhere else than where I think. After revamp, with less healing power or not, everything became... sooo long and so sad for templars. I don't want to be compelled to groups. I want to craft, I want to harvest too, I want to solo a bit from times to times too without suffering this. It wasn't necessary to make it longer and everything who could justify our DPS is DEFINITELY GONE with latest adjustments to other healing classes. <div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>For Timaarit</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=38406303" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=38406303</A></P> <P>When I get into DoF zones?</P> <P> </P> <P>I dont want dps, Im a healer, I like healing Id like better healing and spell fixes. Not dps.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Panthbot wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Caethre wrote: <div></div> <p> <font color="#cc0033">Yes, most of us made a TEMPLAR (a priest, but not ANY priest) to be the BEST (not the equal) healer and accepted less in other areas</font>. </p> <p>This line alone makes me hope they nerf the crap out of Templars and leave them there.  SOE has never stated that Templars or clerics for that matter are supposed to be the best healer in the game.  They stated that all priest classes where supposed to be able to heal equally and there would be no super healer unlike EQ1.  So most of you templars are living in a delusional world and you will never be happy because guess what ... you will never be happy.  Also you didn't accept less in other areas .. like i posted previously there are many areas that balance truely comes in - Armor type and selection, DPS, Healing, Buffing, Debuffing and Utility.</p> <p>To the templars on this board who don't think like this ..  you are a joy to play the game with.  As a warden I love grouping/raiding with a templar who knows how to play his/her class and doesn't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because my dps is higher then theirs.  /salute</p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>Well, after this statement, I will never group with a warden. Not with my templar nor with my monk. Untill I know who your toon is and on what server.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>AzraelAzgard wrote:<p>For Timaarit</p> <p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=38406303" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=38406303</a></p> <p>When I get into DoF zones?</p> <p>I dont want dps, Im a healer, I like healing Id like better healing and spell fixes. Not dps.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry mr. Raider. We are not talking here about how good 1% of us feel, we are talking about how bad DoF is for most of us who actually need to solo occasionally. Yes, 'need' is abit wrong word, we can always play with alts when we find no groups... <--- sarcasm</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR><BR> <P>How about a bit of realization that as a extreme hardcore raider, you are in the tiny 1% of gamers? Your opinions and experiences are totally out of touch with the rest of us, because you are playing a different game. I mean no disrespect to your choices, you may play as you wish, but you are really in the worst possible position to be speaking on subjects from a perspective where you cannot grasp at a basic level the way in which most of us play, and therefore our interests and priorities.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You have no problem taking Kaylena's opinion when he agrees with you...and he's a hardcore raider.  Shouldn't his opinion matter just as much as Reznor's (i.e. - not at all according to this post above).  I'm NOT a hardcore raider, and yet you tend to reject my opinions out of hand as also non-representive.  I could even point out that you play the only two healers in your guild on Antonia Bayle, while I have access to over 30 priests of all tiers (though 11 are levels 40+) in my guild on Guk - and yet my opinion on the subject is still no more valid than yours. </P> <P>That's the funny thing about placing standards on who may or may not have a "valid" opinion on a subject.  You quickly find out that blanket generalizations aren't very good at determining who may speak out on a subject.  After all, why is Radar-X's opinion less valid than Timaarit's - especially since Radar-X has actually listed his own Templar's name, whereas Timaarit remains anonymous (he could be an Inquisitor spy for all we know :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />? </P> <P>Why is my opinion less valid than yours?  I have a 50 Fury on one of my household accounts, right alongside my 52 Templar...yet your opinion holds more weight regarding differences between Furies and Templars because you have a level 28 Fury?</P> <P>Opinions can't be wrong.  To the person holding the opinion, that opinion is absolutely correct.  We can't just sling opinions at each other as a way to "prove" how right we each are.  Everyone's opinion matters on this - not just the opinions you want to hear or agree with.  </P> <P> </P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Oooh unlucky.</P> <P>And well lol its not 1% on my server atleast. Half the guilds here are raid guilds and moving to become raid guilds, there are 1 or 2 RP guilds and a few family guilds. Was the same on Venril Sathir in EQ1. Loads of people raid in guilds and we have serverwide pick up raids all the time.</P> <P> </P> <P>We are Priests we dont need dps, we can solo, I solo'd in Silent City while there were no groups around, you can do lvl 56^^ Lions there at lvl 53. They are heroic its good xp, as they are undead Consecrated Strike does a nice 400 400, with an HO completion thats a 1k+ nuke added up.</P> <P>Our dps is sufficent to solo if you choose the right places, yes we are slower at things not undead but we arent supposed to be dps machines and we never will be. Fury dps is a little too big imo, one of our Furies does 600+ dps against groups of mobs...</P> <P> </P> <P>What we need is spell fixes. </P> <P> </P> <P>And theres no need to make a cheap comment that Im a raider, I dont call you a noob in crap gear who heals worse than my lvl 20 twink do I?</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>And Timaarit here is your favorite Warden <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=147658106" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=147658106</A></P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>You have no problem taking Kaylena's opinion when he agrees with you...and he's a hardcore raider.  Shouldn't his opinion matter just as much as Reznor's ... *snipped rest*</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>A deliberate misinterpretation of what I said, to try to assign motives to me I do not have. I have no issue with anyone having any opinion they wish (it will of course lead the rest of us to make an assessment of their cognitive ability, but that is each person's right too).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, for someone who is admittedly a hardcore raider who hardly ever solos or needs to go LFG with strangers, someone who is in the top 1% geared on any server (like Reznor), someone with regular guildmates/groupmates who will get a group anytime because of being guildleader of a large guild (like you), to be saying and implying that soloing is unimportant (because they dont want/need to do it), they are fine (because they have better gear than everyone else), and other such things ... is going to get that pointed out as having no basis for knowing how the rest of us "live".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not recall Kaylena making any remarks of that sort at any point on any thread. She has her concerns in a raiding environment too, but isn't coming here talking about how she is "having a laugh" with her raiding mates about how all the "normal" Templar players are struggling. But if someone who *is* a hardcore raider or a large guildleader and comes here with a "we are fine" message, based wholly on not even playing the same game as the rest of us, you betcha it's going to get pointed out for what it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All my posts have been carefully targetted at the one area I know well - soloing and small group play. I have not spoken about raids, because I do not know much about raiding as a Templar in EQII, and my 'opinion' on such , whilst I am entitled to hold one, is not going to be as informed as a raiding player. Conversely, for someone who does not spend endless hours every day soloing and in small groups, with non-raiding gear, grouping with others with very average gear and, in some cases, lower skill, then unsurprisingly, their 'opinion' on that domain on play is going to be equally uninformed. Pretty basic logic anyone should be able to comprehend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In small groups and solo settings right now, I am not even debating with you or your two or three cohorts about the inferiority of the Templar class  compared to other priests, I am reporting it as observed fact. And in doing so .. I am one of hundreds doing the same. But naturally, being a protected guildleader, you will never have such concerns, you have a group at the click of your fingers anytime you like, no matter how weak our class becomes, and have 'access' to so many characters and accounts, it doesn't matter anyway. Your reality is another world from the most of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna / Annaelisa</DIV><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote></blockquote>Well, after this statement, I will never group with a warden. Not with my templar nor with my monk. Untill I know who your toon is and on what server. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I just had to say "I am not sure who you are punishing with that pledge." <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <DIV>In small groups and solo settings right now, I am not even debating with you or your two or three cohorts about the inferiority of the Templar class  compared to other priests, I am reporting it as observed fact. And in doing so .. I am one of hundreds doing the same. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good example of "Appeal to Popularity" fallacy and the "Prejudicial Language" fallacy, by the way - implying that you have "hundreds" on your side of an argument, while I merely have 2 or 3 "cohorts" (a derogatory term, typically).  I bring this up because I felt this was improper and irrelevant to the points at hand.  </P> <P>If I was the only person saying 2+2=4 against hundreds of people who said 2+2=5, I'd still be correct, regardless of popularity.  Facts are facts, regardless of popularity.  Remember, it was once "popular" opinion that the Sun most certainly revolved around the Earth.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, I do not believe for one moment that you think I post for "popularity". I couldn't care less about popularity. What I want to see is my class balanced with other priests. Right now, as a small group/soloing Templar, it is far from that, and that is a fact. And facts are facts, as you say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>3devious wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote></blockquote>Well, after this statement, I will never group with a warden. Not with my templar nor with my monk. Untill I know who your toon is and on what server. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I just had to say "I am not sure who you are punishing with that pledge." <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I didn't think you were <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caethre wrote:<div>OOC.</div> <div> </div> <div>At this point, I do not believe for one moment that you think I post for "popularity". I couldn't care less about popularity. What I want to see is my class balanced with other priests. Right now, as a small group/soloing Templar, it is far from that, and that is a fact. And facts are facts, as you say.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> That is SO not what he meant.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, I do not believe for one moment that you think I post for "popularity". I couldn't care less about popularity. What I want to see is my class balanced with other priests. Right now, as a small group/soloing Templar, it is far from that, and that is a fact. And facts are facts, as you say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The game isn't balanced at the raid or soloing levels, though.  The developers have stated several times that the game was balanced around groups of 4-6.  In fact, I've quote several times where developers have stated that soloing is NOT equal for all classes, and that it's intentional.  It's simply possible for all classes to solo...but not necessarily to solo equally.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Not my fault you lack skill Tim</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Caethre wrote: <div>OOC.</div> <div> </div> <div>At this point, I do not believe for one moment that you think I post for "popularity". I couldn't care less about popularity. What I want to see is my class balanced with other priests. Right now, as a small group/soloing Templar, it is far from that, and that is a fact. And facts are facts, as you say.</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The game isn't balanced at the raid or soloing levels, though.  The developers have stated several times that the game was balanced around groups of 4-6.  In fact, I've quote several times where developers have stated that soloing is NOT equal for all classes, and that it's intentional.  It's simply possible for all classes to solo...but not necessarily to solo equally.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Right. And still some classes can do what that group of 4 to 6 can.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><BR><SPAN>Right. And still some classes can do what that group of 4 to 6 can.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You just tossing that out there, or do you have anything to back it up?  Screenshot?  Parse?  Log?  Heck, even a personal recollection of something you've seen?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've also heard rumors of "uberwarlocks" standing seven foot tall, able to kill creatures by the hundreds.  If they were here, they'd consume the Epics with fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their hindbottoms.  It doesn't mean I've seen such things, but I've at least heard it's possible from a reliable source who knows a guy who dated an elf who heard from a developer that it really happened on Highkeep server.  ...or was it Innovation?  :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some classes simply solo better than others.  This is not only documented as fact, but it's documented by the developers as intended.  Why anyone would choose one of the worst soloing classes and then complain about our worst weakness is beyond me.  It's like buying a new sports car and complaining that your friend's new off-roader was able to clear 3 feet of snow.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can Templars solo?  Absolutely.  Are we as good at soloing as other classes?  Absolutely not.  Does that make the class broken?  No.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>We dont need balanced dps at all, Priests should be the lowest on dps, and some priests should be lower than others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah Mages can solo awesomly but thats the way the class can work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could all classes be balanced to solo just as well? yes. What would it be? crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your so bothered about a Wizard or Warlock soloing a heroic mob, become one ! Priests heal, we are a group orientated class, yes we are missy opinion on everything, yes we cna solo, that doesnt mena we are a solo class. Our entire purpose is support and that is for the other 3 archtypes in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dps is fine, try undead or better still undead that you can also use a master smite on. We solo fine even on stuff not undead, it takes longer. But what do you expect! your a priest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need spell fixes not dps.</DIV>

[Truffor]

I understand templars asking more healing power instead of DPS. Problem is that healing power is the last thing SoE would give back as all healers should heal (let's say almost) equally. Really, if you don't want more DPS, will you ask better mez than enchanters ? A bard song ? Evac ? Even if our toolset is *fixed*, it's still group oriented, <u>like it has always been</u>. What is frustrating me and probably some other people (don't say I said a lot), is that what templar class gained for having almost tossed his solo efficiency has been nerfed after revamp (understand an imba healing power). At that point, nothing has replaced the loss yet, our DPS is still BS, our toolset morphed a bit (even fixed it's not really replacing anything) and I clearly feel/see/know that balance has been affected. Kendricke, can't you feel this after having posted so much comments and observations ? You can't stand seeing your work based on facts neglected by poor arguments, but can't you see there's something missing since revamp ? Please, don't say we are fine <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For healing yes, overall : no. Everyone is trying to pull cover to his side, complaining about healing, DPS, utility or whatever they want, it's human but facts are simple. As I started, few chance we get more healing power. What's left ? Mostly DPS and utility. Adjusting utility is a sensitive point. Number of spell is limited. Making better mez won't suffice at all or would compel true mezzers to very specific situations. Adding new utility would replace existing lines, those very lines helping templar to be a little better at healing than others. Want to risk that ? Adjusting DPS is the easier thing to do without breaking a group oriented balance between healers. Goal of Templar should be, in a unique sentence, "beeing the best healer possible". That said, don't understand "Worst DPS possible" or "Worst solo class possible", those aren't a goal and should just be a well earned consequence only if main goal is greatly fulfilled. So when I hear BS like "asking DPS for templar is heresy", what about saying "gimme my healing back" is childish ? Dad said noooooo, no more the 2 reactives then go sleep group will be fine this night. DPS is a valid point. Not THE POINT, just a point. Moejzyl. Templar 55 Storm server. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <div>You just tossing that out there, or do you have anything to back it up?  Screenshot?  Parse?  Log?  Heck, even a personal recollection of something you've seen? <font color="#ffff00">I can only tell you facts as I know them. I cannot give you screenshots (exept from logs) about what others have done, I am just stating what my guildies have told me they have done. My guildie (a conjurer) can kill a triple up that is 2 levels higher than he is. My monk grouped with a berserker and a fury and we were barely able to kill triple ups 2 levels higher than we were. Of course part of the difference is in gear, the conjurer has full a3's (not full lelgendary yet though) while my monk has full legendary gear but mainly a1's and I doubt the 2 others had better than average gear. But still the fact is that is single class is equivalent to a small group. </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I've also heard rumors of "uberwarlocks" standing seven foot tall, able to kill creatures by the hundreds.  If they were here, they'd consume the Epics with fireballs from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their hindbottoms.  It doesn't mean I've seen such things, but I've at least heard it's possible from a reliable source who knows a guy who dated an elf who heard from a developer that it really happened on Highkeep server.  ...or was it Innovation?  :smileywink:</div> <div>  <font color="#ffff00">I doubt that is the only thing you have heard.</font> </div> <div>Some classes simply solo better than others.  This is not only documented as fact, but it's documented by the developers as intended.  Why anyone would choose one of the worst soloing classes and then complain about our worst weakness is beyond me.  It's like buying a new sports car and complaining that your friend's new off-roader was able to clear 3 feet of snow.  </div> <div> <font color="#ffff00">Ths always makes me laugh. I dont trust the devs. From the simple fact that theu have not deserved it. I think they have stated what you wrote because they are clueless about how to fix it.</font>  </div> <div>Can Templars solo?  Absolutely.  Are we as good at soloing as other classes?  Absolutely not.  Does that make the class broken?  No. <font color="#ffff00">Not broken but unbalanced</font> </div> <><><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Ofc everyone is an unbalanced soloer, you would have to be a [Removed for Content] to ask for everyone to be balanced!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That would make all the classes boring and they would have to be make everyone so alike your only differance would be a name and the way you dealt damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing is never going to be equal, Mages will probably always be the best and well *care* Im a healer, I dont care how well anyone else can solo and I dont see why any priest would.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your so concerned about dps and soloing well maybe you should change your class Tim. Templar isnt for you.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Well I seen 2 Necroes duo a epic x2 Tier 6 in SS. </P> <P>But then that is equality in action there. I have a hard time wioth a even con group, and other classes can duo a epic x2 of their tier.</P>

[Truffor]

Geyser of Anuk and the Epic Scorpion not far from PoF zone are weak mobs that can be killed with a single group. I remember having killed the scorpion with a group of 5, having fired just one reactive... If you are speaking of one of those, don't worry and ask your friends to kill Broog, you may have some fun. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Soloing is never going to be equal, Mages will probably always be the best and well *care* Im a healer, I dont care how well anyone else can solo and I dont see why any priest would. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We already know that *you* don't care about soloing, because you are basically a hardcore raider, you've posted that in several places already. However, you already know that many of us do indeed care, and I simply do not believe you cannot understand why we might, because it is so obvious. And to tell us that we 'chose the wrong class' because we do not fit your model of play is just plain arrogant, and beyond your authority to dictate.</P> <P>We are not even talking about Mages for the most part. We are talking about Templars vs <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Other Priests</STRONG></FONT>. <BR></P> <P>Neither are we talking only about soloing, but the whole spectrum of Templar contribution from soloing up to six person groups fighting average xp grind or normal quest content. Templars just do not justify their place in these groups anymore in all-round contribution (compared to other priests).</P> <P>The hundreds of posts on these issues by hundreds of different posters show something clearly - a depth of feeling that our class is heading down a dead end. No longer having a <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>clear</FONT> </STRONG>healing advantage over the other priests, our lack of utility and damage compared to those other priests is affecting more and more of us. Only those protected in large guilds and fixed groups of regular players can avoid the impact.</P> <P>We will keep posting on the issue, and keep giving our ongoing observations from day to day play of <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>just how hugely imbalanced things are right now and continue to be</FONT></STRONG>.</P> <P>But here is my own personal latest update. On Friday evening when I logged in, Annaelisa was a Level 29.5 Fury. Now, on Sunday night, I have logged her off as a level 32.4 Fury. <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Chain-pulling yellow-con +1, +2, +3 and even +4 levels above me, and killing every mob in 30-40 seconds tops</STRONG></FONT> (usually kiting) sure is a great way to level fast.</P> <P>Annaelisa is equipped in *handcrafted* tradeskilled or solo-mob dropped armour and jewelry, nothing special at all, though she does have Adept3 spells. Her main nuke now does about 750 damage, and her new AE nuke at level 32 does not do much less, and then she has two other nukes as well. These put to shame what a Templar at that level can manage, heck, they put what my level 53 Templar can manage to shame for that matter.  But ... here is the kicker ... her heals *still* match those of a Templar her level with her in a normal XP group. </P> <P>Ok, ok, she is still only tier 4, but watch this space!</P> <P>And that is what this is all about, this post, this thread, all these hundreds of threads from hundreds of ordinary players. So no matter how many times someone might say 'well soloing and small grouping do not matter to me', and no matter how many times one of two or three specific people who are trying to flood this forum we 'we are basically fine' messages, we are NOT fine, and things are NOT alright.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2><STRONG>It really is time now, after over a month since the Live Updates, with all these posts, that the developers actually brave the waters of our forum and addressed us, with their ideas and plans for our class, so we know what their views are, and can then make our own decisions.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2><STRONG>Or are we to keep feeling this message that, unless we are hardcore raiders, every average casual player better give up on the Templar class, and instead get levelling up their Furies, so that like me, they can heal just as well, but contribute far far more.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar] / Annaelisa [32 Fury]</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 AM</span>

[Quijonsith]

Short and simple here.  Amen and agreed 500% with you Caethre. <div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Soloing is never going to be equal, Mages will probably always be the best and well *care* Im a healer, I dont care how well anyone else can solo and I dont see why any priest would. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We already know that *you* don't care about soloing, because you are basically a hardcore raider, you've posted that in several places already. However, you already know that many of us do indeed care, and I simply do not believe you cannot understand why we might, because it is so obvious. And to tell us that we 'chose the wrong class' because we do not fit your model of play is just plain arrogant, and beyond your authority to dictate.</P> <P>We are not even talking about Mages for the most part. We are talking about Templars vs <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Other Priests</STRONG></FONT>. <BR></P> <P>Neither are we talking only about soloing, but the whole spectrum of Templar contribution from soloing up to six person groups fighting average xp grind or normal quest content. Templars just do not justify their place in these groups anymore in all-round contribution (compared to other priests).</P> <P>The hundreds of posts on these issues by hundreds of different posters show something clearly - a depth of feeling that our class is heading down a dead end. No longer having a <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>clear</FONT> </STRONG>healing advantage over the other priests, our lack of utility and damage compared to those other priests is affecting more and more of us. Only those protected in large guilds and fixed groups of regular players can avoid the impact.</P> <P>We will keep posting on the issue, and keep giving our ongoing observations from day to day play of <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>just how hugely imbalanced things are right now and continue to be</FONT></STRONG>.</P> <P>But here is my own personal latest update. On Friday evening when I logged in, Annaelisa was a Level 29.5 Fury. Now, on Sunday night, I have logged her off as a level 32.4 Fury. <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Chain-pulling yellow-con +1, +2, +3 and even +4 levels above me, and killing every mob in 30-40 seconds tops</STRONG></FONT> (usually kiting) sure is a great way to level fast.</P> <P>Annaelisa is equipped in *handcrafted* tradeskilled or solo-mob dropped armour and jewelry, nothing special at all, though she does have Adept3 spells. <STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Her main nuke now does about 750 damage, and her new AE nuke at level 32 does not do much less, and then she has two other nukes as well. These put to shame what a Templar at that level can manage, heck, they put what my level 53 Templar can manage to shame for that matter.  But ... here is the kicker ... her heals *still* match those of a Templar her level with her in a normal XP group</FONT>. </STRONG></P> <P>Ok, ok, she is still only tier 4, but watch this space!</P> <P>And that is what this is all about, this post, this thread, all these hundreds of threads from hundreds of ordinary players. So no matter how many times someone might say 'well soloing and small grouping do not matter to me', and no matter how many times one of two or three specific people who are trying to flood this forum we 'we are basically fine' messages, we are NOT fine, and things are NOT alright.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2><STRONG>It really is time now, after over a month since the Live Updates, with all these posts, that the developers actually brave the waters of our forum and addressed us, with their ideas and plans for our class, so we know what their views are, and can then make our own decisions.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2><STRONG>Or are we to keep feeling this message that, unless we are hardcore raiders, every average casual player better give up on the Templar class, and instead get levelling up their Furies, so that like me, they can heal just as well, but contribute far far more.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar] / Annaelisa [32 Fury]</P> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:10 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That are lies caeth a fury has one nuke one ae nuke and 2 dots we dont have 4 nukes and an ae nuke geez what class ARE you playing go over to the dps comparison thread in priests forums and see for yourself dmg wise we arent far off.</P> <P>And pre 52 furies are VASTLY inferior healwise compared to templatrs so dont even try to make it sound were equal at that lvl youre full of lies caeth.<BR></P> <DIV>link to dps comparison: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4648#M4648" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4648#M4648</A> </DIV> <DIV>oh my dont take it personal but you are either lying or ignorant.</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 AM</span>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>That are lies caeth a fury has one nuke one ae nuke and 2 dots we dont have 4 nukes and an ae nuke geez what class ARE you playing go over to the dps comparison thread in priests forums and see for yourself dmg wise we arent far off.</P> <P>And pre 52 furies are VASTLY inferior healwise compared to templatrs so dont even try to make it sound were equal at that lvl youre full of lies caeth.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh my, the one Fury troll is back on the Templar boards, and stalking my posts again, and launching a personal attack on me YET AGAIN by falsely calling me a liar. All i have posted here is 100% fact and totally provable.</P> <P>First, you need to learn to read. I said, and you even quoted me: one nuke, then one ae nuke, then two other nukes. Yes, thats <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>four independent </FONT></STRONG>nuke lines (including the AE nuke). I did not say or imply five, as you then tried to say I did. And yes, I refer to the 'dots' as nukes too, but frankly, that is just how I refer to those <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>damage spells</FONT></STRONG>, the way I refer to them is irrelevent, all that is relevant is that they add up to one hell of a lot of DPS. </P> <P>Do I really have to go look up the spell list and reprint it here? Are you not a Fury, cannot you see them for yourself? Yes, Furies do have four nuke lines (damage line, DoT lines, whatever you want to call them), and so for that matter do Templars, just for about 1/3 the damage in all cases. Do not dare to call another poster a liar again without getting your facts straight.</P> <P>Secondly, I am telling you for FACT, this is not debate, Furies do about <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>three times the damage </FONT></STRONG>a Templar does. I am playing both classes, I do actually know. I still do not want to be bothered trawling the internet for the exact raw spell data, I have pointed you to go find out by looking them up so many times now, but you refuse. Go do it and comment when you have the information, then you might not look so ill-informed.</P> <P>Thirdly, I am also telling you for FACT, <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Furies are healing for approximately what a Templar can</STRONG></FONT>. You just repeating 'no we cant' over and over is nonsense. I know I can, as a Fury, maybe you just suck?</P> <P>These are all easily provable by actually <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>looking at the spells</STRONG></FONT>. There is no way around it.</P> <P>Finally, you said you would post no more troll posts on the Templar boards, but here you are back again, with personal attacks.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR>oh my dont take it personal but you are either lying or ignorant. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Don't take it personally? .. and then you launch more personal attacks?</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Quit the trolling and harassment, it is getting old.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Felishanna / Annaelisa.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:49 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div></div>And pre 52 furies are VASTLY inferior healwise compared to templatrs so dont even try to make it sound were equal at that lvl youre full of lies caeth. <hr></blockquote>Ok, so you dont play a fury nor a templar. In any case you are just simply lying. And trolling. And making personal attacks. Edit: It seems you didn't even read the link you provided yourself even though you had commented there. Why this conclusion? Well, the fact from that post is that for single targets, templar spells make 130 to 155DPS while furies do 150 to 204DPS with 210 intelligence. Now that is actually pretty correct for templars as my dps with a3's and 190 int is about 150. But if you can calculate, average fury dps with _basic_ spells is about 25% higher than templar dps (ok, it is half of what I thought...). What cannot be seen from there is the fact that for solo targets, one cycle of fury spells will kill it. This means that the actual dps is a lot higher. Also the group nukes were not compared and fact is that fury group nuke does 3x the damage templars nuke does. What does this mean? It means furies can release their arsenal, kill the opponent and go to next one while timers run. This is how my monk soloes btw. What templars do is that they are stuck with the encounter twice as long since we need to wait for our recast timers. Happens occasionally to my monk and significantly reduces dps. Well, I guess I should say that succesfull first barrage significantly increases dps as I can go to next mob while I wait for the skill to be useable. Then again, I doubt you can comprehend this. Or then you just will ignore it as you have done to all other facts.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:03 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <P>First, you need to learn to read. I said, and you even quoted me: one nuke, then one ae nuke, then two other nukes. Yes, thats <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>four independent </FONT></STRONG>nuke lines (including the AE nuke). I did not say or imply five, as you then tried to say I did. And yes, I refer to the 'dots' as nukes too, but frankly, that is just how I refer to those <STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>damage spells</FONT></STRONG>, the way I refer to them is irrelevent, all that is relevant is that they add up to one hell of a lot of DPS. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you're counting DOT's as nukes, I have five independant "nuke" lines:  Smite, Strike, Beams/Rays of Faith, Combative/Warring Faith, <BR> <DIV>and Symbol of Corruption (which I really use as more of a WIS debuff than anything, to be fair).  This does not count the Mastery Smites (which Furies receive also).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, to be fair, Fury damage spells do much more damage typically.  I've never argued otherwise.  In addition to this is the fact that Furies actually increase the offensive spell casting capabilities of their groups through massive INT buffs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, all I'm stating here is that having four or five damage spell lines isn't limited to Furies.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sokolov]

Here are the data we've been looking for =D <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644</a><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Well caeth calling all dmg spells nukes is a bit well inaccurate I was just saying you were making it sound like we have 4-5 1k+ nukes so please be more accurate.</P> <P>Go and see that thread Sok posted for yourself and tim saying ANYTHING about personal attacks lol thats rich, as far as my personal attacks go only a really REALLY sensitive person would be offended by those come on (much nastier things have been said to me but i dont care) what are these boards w/o a little salt ah well (btw I dont have post which got removed by devs I know some of your posts were removed).</P> <P>If you keep saying Im a troll (which is a personal attack) say that maybe I dont have a clue (which is a personal attack) or maybe I suck at playing a fury (a personal attack and also very wrong as Im one of the best healers around I dare to say, I was always asked in groups pre cu as I could keep groups up in difficult encounters with the little tools I had whereas templars had an easy ride up to 50, also Im in one of the top raid guilds on my server and my spells and gear are all topnotch and Ive got a lot of play time under my belt, believe me I do know how my fury ticks.).</P> <P>Maybe its true what some people said a while ago, maybe some of you need to learn to play your class to the max.</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:53 AM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>There are some problems with that "data", however. It does not quite reflect reality in actual usage. This is because:</P> <P>(a) The AE nukes are not included. This is a major omission.</P> <P>(b) It does not sum up the amount of damage each class can actually land in, say, a 30 or 40 second period. The reason this is important is, whereas for direct nukes the damage is instant, the DoTs keep going whilst the caster is firing the next nuke. The effect of this layering means that absolute damage output favours those with the largest damage per tick.</P> <P>A more valid comparison is to just sum the total damage done by the nuke (or DoT) if it is a DoT. So, looking at the "Archetype Class Line" as the post describes it, who would prefer the templar Judging Smite nuke over the the Fury Killing Swarm DoT?</P> <P>The layering of damage spells with HOs of one priest versus another has been measrured by actual parses on a number of occasions. Those parses are posted in many places on these forums, but values of under 100dps for Templars and 300-350+ dps for Furies are often posted. Food for thought.</P> <P>(c) The post makes the huge assumption of equal INT. Sounds fair, until you think about it. For those who do not know, Furies get huge +INT buffs, Templars do not. This means, for equivalently geared characters, a Fury's INT is always going to be rather higher than the equivalent Templars INT, without them needing to do anything. This makes the difference somewhat larger than this post suggests.</P> <P>A more valid comparison would be to take each class, put them in equivalent gear that would be typical for the class and tier (for example, say, full Legendary Crafted armour and jewelry), with their own buffs, and see what that gives them, and use those figures. Because that is the reality.</P> <P>Felishanna / Annaelisa</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe its true what some people said a while ago, maybe some of you need to learn to play your class to the max.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You don't play a Templar do you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suspect you cannot even play your own class to the max, after rubbishing my (totally unrelated) fluffy advice post on the Fury boards about how powerful the 'Snare' spell is for kiting, because "kiting is running away like a sissy" or some similar statement. LOL kiting is a classic technique that many classes use, if you haven't learnt it, time you did perhaps? Regardless, the reality is, kiting means Annaelisa uses less power to kill each mob, as she has to heal less, so she kills (much) faster. A *lot* faster than any Templar her level, that's for sure. Chain killing mid and high-yellow cons, in 30-40s per encounter. For hours. Trivially, too. Now, having played a Templar for ten months, I know we can't hope to get even clsoe to that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But again, you don't play a Templar, do you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>No of course not caeth all our dmg utility is balanced against your defensive utility not? thought that that was what a lot of people were saying so (tho i dont really agree  I think temp>fury in utility healing buffs vs off buffs but whatever), you should not take the int bonus into account as thats our offensive buffing you also shouldnt take our dmg shields into account and our ring of fire (everyone has ancient spells which balance out the other some might be more useful but for the dmg spell we get you get a defensive/healbased spell) and single target primal fury or any dmg buffs as thats what we as furies do: we add dmg so it isnt so strange for us to do more dmg as if we dont do more dmg our dmg utility would be really broken dont you agree? if we dont do more dmg than templars then our offensive buffing would suck.</P> <P>Also in that thread it was made clear that furies arent very power effective dmg drains us more than other classes, perhaps templars need a little boost (tho having undead as  bonus dmg beats having elementals as bonus dmg by far go and try and hunt some elementals in this game) but not as much as people make it sound or believe.</P> <P>edit:</P> <P> </P> <P>I said I kited iceberg before but I thought it was boring took me like an hour or so so I have used snare saying kiting is for pansies was a joke ah well guess some people are too bitter to take a little joke.</P> <P>Still think snaring mobs isnt the best way to go as our dmg cant be casted while running around, I dont run oop much got good drinks etc so I dont bother running around a mob as I said well it looks kinda silly and Id rather take a mob head on different playstyle sure but dont even start to believe you know anything more about furies than me as you dont even have scratched the surface and I do know how to play my class (and many others have said that to me a lot of times even before cu saying templar x healed very good pre cu didnt mean a thing as almost no skill was required to keep a group alive).</P> <P>Btw I have played a templar on beta dof rolled one so I know a tiny little bit but never liked cleric classes they seem boring to me (even when they were THE heal gods) and dont fit my playstyle if you say templar you say great healing/def not much dmg  a fury is healing +good dmg fits my playstyle better.</P> <P>Some people still love being the best healer as in healing+defensive buffs/procs and templars are just that I dont know why you want a furies speciality too you chose to be the best healer there is and you still are (pure dmg prevention wise) soloing you could need a boost tho on that I can agree.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>No of course not caeth all our dmg utility is balanced against your defensive utility not? thought that that was what a lot of people were saying so (tho i dont really agree  I think temp>fury in utility healing buffs vs off buffs but whatever), you should not take the int bonus into account as thats our offensive buffing you also shouldnt take our dmg shields into account and our ring of fire (everyone has ancient spells which balance out the other some might be more useful but for the dmg spell we get you get a defensive/healbased spell) and single target primal fury or any dmg buffs as thats what we as furies do: we add dmg so it isnt so strange for us to do more dmg as if we dont do more dmg our dmg utility would be really broken dont you agree? if we dont do more dmg than templars then our offensive buffing would suck.</P> <P>Also in that thread it was made clear that furies arent very power effective dmg drains us more than other classes, perhaps templars need a little boost (tho having undead as  bonus dmg beats having elementals as bonus dmg by far go and try and hunt some elementals in this game) but not as much as people make it sound or believe.</P> <P>edit:</P> <P> </P> <P>I said I kited iceberg before but I thought it was boring took me like an hour or so so I have used snare saying kiting is for pansies was a joke ah well guess some people are too bitter to take a little joke.</P> <P>Still think snaring mobs isnt the best way to go as our dmg cant be casted while running around, I dont run oop much got good drinks etc so I dont bother running around a mob as I said well it looks kinda silly and Id rather take a mob head on different playstyle sure but dont even start to believe you know anything more about furies than me as you dont even have scratched the surface and I do know how to play my class (and many others have said that to me a lot of times even before cu saying templar x healed very good pre cu didnt mean a thing as almost no skill was required to keep a group alive).</P> <P>Btw I have played a templar on beta dof rolled one so I know a tiny little bit but never liked cleric classes they seem boring to me (even when they were THE heal gods) and dont fit my playstyle if you say templar you say great healing/def not much dmg  a fury is healing +good dmg fits my playstyle better.</P> <P>Some people still love being the best healer as in healing+defensive buffs/procs and templars are just that I dont know why you want a furies speciality too you chose to be the best healer there is and you still are (pure dmg prevention wise) soloing you could need a boost tho on that I can agree.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>how can you say, fury buffs and dps dont matter when you compare the classes and then in other posts say something about cleric (pathetic) buffs and procs.</P> <P>Seems like a double standard.</P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>No, I mean if utility is balanced as many have said you cant count our dmg utility to our total dps as that would give an unbalaced view of dps numbers as you have other utility that balances our dmg utility out.</P> <P>Of course furies do more dmg we buff offensively so even with all our dmg utility included we should all do the same dmg??</P> <P>Of course not.</P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<p>No, I mean if utility is balanced as many have said you cant count our dmg utility to our total dps as that would give an unbalaced view of dps numbers as you have other utility that balances our dmg utility out.</p> <p>Of course furies do more dmg we buff offensively so even with all our dmg utility included we should all do the same dmg??</p> <p>Of course not.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Still ignoring facts I see. Basic damage (utility excluded) is not balanced between healing classes. Your own link proved it.</span><div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Hmm double post, sorry.</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Athinu constantly avoids the facts.</P> <P>The facts are -</P> <P>Take any group of 0 to 5 people with NO healer, and then add a Templar .. what do you get? How good is the healing? How much extra does the Templar bring to the group? The answer is you get a healer who can easily keep you alive, gives you a few buffs, and almost 0 dps.</P> <P>Now replace that Templar with a Fury, and see what you get. The Fury can STILL keep that group alive, easily. But you also get a lot more utility and 3x as much damage. The group will kill mobs faster and get more XP. Overall, the group will perform better with that Fury.</P> <P>The result of this is, that any normal group needing a healer and seeing same level/gear Fury and Templar LFG will take that Fury <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>every single time</STRONG></FONT>. The Fury just does much more, balanced over all they can do versus all a Templar can do. The Templars just have to sit LFG. And whilst they are LFG, they can only solo at one third the rate a Fury can (if even that much).</P> <P>This was not true before LU13. Back then, you knew if you took the Templar, you would get much better healing, whereas the Fury might not keep you alive, but you knew if you were facing easier content, the Fury would be better. It WAS balanced then. </P> <P>Balance is needed by boosting the Templar class to a point where the group would say ... "well, we could take the Templar and get X, or the Fury for Y .. which do you want guys?" .. and there is a chance they will take either. Balance is also needed, such that whilst either class is LFG, both being priests, the soloing rate they can achieve is not so massively different from eachother.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [33 Fury]</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>Take any group of 0 to 5 people with NO healer, and then add a Templar .. what do you get? How good is the healing? How much extra does the Templar bring to the group? The answer is you get a healer who can easily keep you alive, gives you a few buffs, and almost 0 dps.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I group with scouts...a lot.  I can drop a mitigation debuff and immediately raise the overall output DPS of my group by several hundred right there.  That's right...I've seen it.  Group's pulling 800-1000 DPS without a tank.  I cast Reproach and suddenly the group's pulling 1200 or more DPS.  No nukes.  No DOTs.  I just cast a single debuff.  Add in Glory of Combat effectively autohealing these groups in many cases (especially coupled with a few well placed Atoning Fates and Reactives), and I have time to throw in a nuke or two in each combat as well.  </P> <P>Am I directly pulling anything close to the DPS of a Fury?  Absolutely not.  Am I contributing overall to the group in important ways?  Absolutely.  </P> <P>Even then, how much difference is there?  Even if a Fury is able to pull in four times as much DPS as a Templar...it's still not nearly as much as a dedicated DPS class...or even most fighters in offensive stance.  Even then, let's assume a Fury's pulling in four times as much DPS (which is an extreme example, but sufficient for the purposes of argument), how much time do you really save?  What does that really mean?  If the Templar helps knock a 60 second fight down by say, 10 seconds...does that mean the Fury is able to knock it down 40?  20?  15?  </P> <P>What does it actually mean to kill something in 45 seconds instead of 55?  Does it mean you're able to kill 8% faster and thus bring in 8% more experience?  If you're pulling in 30% an hour with a Templar, does that mean you'd get 32.4% with a Fury?  Is that even an accurate depiction?</P> <P>See, without any real numbers, we're unable to get a real bead on what the difference really is.  Are Furies pulling in 1% more experience an hour...or 10%?  That's what I want to know.  Does anyone have an answer?  I don't.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if I believe you Kendricke (and I am sorry, but I do not), that would be an extreme case, where you are grouped with a load of scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what happens if you are duoing with a Guardian?</DIV> <DIV>Or duoing with a Conjuror?</DIV> <DIV>Or trioing with a paladin and a conjuror?</DIV> <DIV>Or 4-grouping with a Wizard, Conjuror and Guardian?</DIV> <DIV>Or trioing with another Templar and a Paladin?</DIV> <DIV>Or (god forbid) just soloing?</DIV> <DIV>Or million other combinations?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Fury is the win. Every time. Taking the Templar in such a situation is ill-advised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Turn that on its head - how do I feel, knowing when friends invite me to group, that they would get more XP per hour by inviting that LFG Fury at zone? In a duo, not by 5% or 10%, but that might be by a factor of two. How does that affect how I feel and how I enjoy my session? Sure, my friend might say, hey, I'd sooner group with a friend, and they might mean it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But it sure doesn't feel good, knowing I'm an XP leech who is slowing him down. As would you be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Got that yet?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It should not be this way. We should be able to provide approximately equal contribution under most normal circumstances. Otherwise it is plainly "not fair", unbalanced, and not acceptable. Why should we accept being such weaklings in this way?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if I believe you Kendricke (and I am sorry, but I do not), that would be an extreme case, where you are grouped with a load of scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what happens if you are duoing with a Guardian?</DIV> <DIV>Or duoing with a Conjuror?</DIV> <DIV>Or trioing with a paladin and a conjuror?</DIV> <DIV>Or 4-grouping with a Wizard, Conjuror and Guardian?</DIV> <DIV>Or trioing with another Templar and a Paladin?</DIV> <DIV>Or (god forbid) just soloing?</DIV> <DIV>Or million other combinations?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Fury is the win. Every time. Taking the Templar in such a situation is ill-advised.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Turn that on its head - how do I feel, knowing when friends invite me to group, that they would get more XP per hour by inviting that LFG Fury at zone? In a duo, not by 5% or 10%, but that might be by a factor of two. How does that affect how I feel and how I enjoy my session? Sure, my friend might say, hey, I'd sooner group with a friend, and they might mean it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But it sure doesn't feel good, knowing I'm an XP leech who is slowing him down. As would you be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Got that yet?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:42 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, so in small group situations - 4 or less members - Furies can wear more hats than a dedicated healer.  On that, we agree.  In my opinion, a Fury IS more valuable than a Shaman or Cleric in a small group/duoing/soloing situation.  Absolutely.  I couldn't agree more.  </P> <P>I'm not discussing our weaknesses though.  I'm a player who primarily plays a Templar on a Templar forum discussing what Templars are good at.  Just because we don't tank well doesn't mean I think I should start comparing us to Paladins now.  :smileywink:</P> <P>My Shaman does things my Templar can't.  My monk does things my Templar can't.  My conjuror does things that my Templar can't.  My other characters all do things my Templar can't.  That's not why I play a Templar...because of things I'm not good at.  I play a Templar because of what we're good at...keeping my groups alive in tough situations.  </P> <P>Note:  Whether or not you believe my numbers is up to you.  Load up a parsing program and run the results yourself on your own Templar.  Join a group with 3 melee.  Gauge the DPS for 10 typical fights.  After that, start using Reproach for the next 10.  Tell me you don't see a gain of around 15-25% DPS...without ever casting another damage spell.  Just heals and then Reproach and heals.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>I'm not discussing our weaknesses though</STRONG>. <STRONG> I'm</STRONG></FONT> a player who primarily plays a Templar on a Templar forum <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>discussing what Templars are good at.</FONT></STRONG>  Just because we don't tank well doesn't mean I think I should start comparing us to Paladins now.  :smileywink:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which is precisely you are wasting both our time by replying to my posts with endless truisms.</P> <P>Because, unlike you, I *am* a small group player, who has suddenly found my class to be almost useless compared to other classes in the domain I play. This was NOT true before LU13, when I would get invites to such groups because I could provide something that others could not, if they wanted or needed what I could provide. Now I and hundreds of other Templars like me feel totally sidelined and dumped on the scrapheap. There is, as you admit, an active dis-incentive for groups to invite Templars now, and we will be stuck LFG whilst group spots are taken by other healers. It is not just Furies, that is just the most extreme case - it is every other healing class to a greater or lesser extent, we are the VERY BOTTOM of the pile now.</P> <P>Sounds strong, yes, we feel passionately that this was a mistake, and we believe SoE, when they realise, will do something to help us feel worthwhile again, something that does not FORCE US ALL TO RE-ROLL as another class.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>I'm not discussing our weaknesses though</STRONG>. <STRONG> I'm</STRONG></FONT> a player who primarily plays a Templar on a Templar forum <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>discussing what Templars are good at.</FONT></STRONG>  Just because we don't tank well doesn't mean I think I should start comparing us to Paladins now.  :smileywink:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which is precisely you are wasting both our time by replying to my posts with endless truisms.</P> <P>Because, unlike you, I *am* a small group player, who has suddenly found my class to be almost useless compared to other classes in the domain I play. This was NOT true before LU13, when I would get invites to such groups because I could provide something that others could not, if they wanted or needed what I could provide. Now I and hundreds of other Templars like me feel totally sidelined and dumped on the scrapheap. There is, as you admit, an active dis-incentive for groups to invite Templars now, and we will be stuck LFG whilst group spots are taken by other healers. It is not just Furies, that is just the most extreme case - it is every other healing class to a greater or lesser extent, we are the VERY BOTTOM of the pile now.</P> <P>Sounds strong, yes, we feel passionately that this was a mistake, and we believe SoE, when they realise, will do something to help us feel worthwhile again, something that does not FORCE US ALL TO RE-ROLL as another class.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No one's forcing you to re-roll.  I'm just asking you and others to learn to play to your strengths, not your weaknesses.  If a group's concerned with general adaptability and utility, they'll take a Fury over me.  If a group's concerned with direct healing capability, I typically get chosen.  In larger groups, healing is more of a concern, in my experience...since the group typically already has all the DPS it needs.  Why take a backup healer when you can take a single Templar and a Scout or Mage? </P> <P>Sure, in easier situations where healing's not really a concern, our oft excessive healing is just wasted.  Yet, in groups where we're going after multiple named - instances like Hidden Cache, Poet's Palace, Shimmering Citadel, and I shine well.  Make sure there's at least 3 melee in the group and I shine brighter still. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:04 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>In the dps link i posted it shows that dps amongst priests arent that far off from each other I replied on a post caeth made b/c she said well you have to take our int buff into account and our dmg buffs but thats not fair to compare damage against other priests you should take away our utility as our utility is dmg your utility is healing/defensive (so quite obviously theres a difference but thats too be expected whats the use of buffing offensively if it doesnt have any impact on dps?).</P> <P>The base lvl of dmg between priests isnt so far off its a furies' speciality that makes us do more dmg (and also drains us more than other classes).</P> <P>So you think an offensive priest should do the same dmg as a defensive priest?</P> <P>Just saying if you want to compare priests you should test em naked as you have some stuff to offset our added dmg, maybe in many groups it isnt really needed, but it IS there maybe you should take your group to more challenging content to fully use your templar speciality as you have an edge over us in the heal/defensive dept.</P> <P>Yes furies can heal alright now and do good dmg, I wont deny that one bit you have other tools maybe your tools are more specialistic that could be. </P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 AM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>More truisms. And more ignoring the problem, talking about groups in places many of us do not even go to.</P> <P>Tonight I will log in as usual. I will consider playing Felishanna with one of my usual duo or trio partners, but again feel dis-illusioned, knowing that I will be dragging them down by playing my Templar. I will then do what I have done with the last 19-20 days, and log on my Fury, and keep grinding her, which is far faster, solo or grouping with other alts, to get her to tier 6 as soon as I can, where she can then group with their mains.</P> <P>If Templars remain as horribly weak as they are now in this domain of play, by the time she gets there, LU13 will force me to retire my Templar as an adventuring class. SOE will have forced me to re-roll, to continue to be able to contribute to the maximum. And then I (as a Fury) will be taking those spots in groups currently taken my Templars too, and the cycle will repeat. Which is why hundreds of Templars are all reporting this same thing.</P> <P>You, Kendricke, with your thousands of posts, are PART OF THE PROBLEM. Your continual avoid the issue / truisms / "we are ok really" nonsense, protected as you are in your large guild, is damaging our class even more, by obfuscating the issue present for hundreds of others.</P> <P>Its all quite clear. The Templar class needs attention, and it needs it now. It is not acceptable to have one class so much less desired in a whole domain of the game, a domain played in by thousands of players (even if you do not, and even if you do not respect it, as you clearly do not).</P> <P> </P>

[RipFlex]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>OOC.</P> <P>Athinu constantly avoids the facts.</P> <P>The facts are -</P> <P>Take any group of 0 to 5 people with NO healer, and then add a Templar .. what do you get? How good is the healing? How much extra does the Templar bring to the group? The answer is you get a healer who can easily keep you alive, gives you a few buffs, and almost 0 dps.</P> <P>Now replace that Templar with a Fury, and see what you get. The Fury can STILL keep that group alive, easily. But you also get a lot more utility and 3x as much damage. The group will kill mobs faster and get more XP. Overall, the group will perform better with that Fury.</P> <P>The result of this is, that any normal group needing a healer and seeing same level/gear Fury and Templar LFG will take that Fury <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>every single time</STRONG></FONT>. The Fury just does much more, balanced over all they can do versus all a Templar can do. The Templars just have to sit LFG. And whilst they are LFG, they can only solo at one third the rate a Fury can (if even that much).</P> <P>This was not true before LU13. Back then, you knew if you took the Templar, you would get much better healing, whereas the Fury might not keep you alive, but you knew if you were facing easier content, the Fury would be better. It WAS balanced then.</P> <P>Balance is needed by boosting the Templar class to a point where the group would say ... "well, we could take the Templar and get X, or the Fury for Y .. which do you want guys?" .. and there is a chance they will take either. Balance is also needed, such that whilst either class is LFG, both being priests, the soloing rate they can achieve is not so massively different from eachother.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [33 Fury]</P> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:00 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nice post Caethre and from a player playing Both Fury and Templar.</P> <P>When I play in a group people actually LAUGH at the DPS I do on Mobs when we are short of DPS side in our group killing Cyclopses or what not.  My Templar actually was Second LAST on DPS parser only because the Inquisitor was just Healing the Main Tank and not attacking at all ! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I know Templars are not DPS, but we were really short on DPS in that group and we were all in good humourous mood and one player had a Parser and wanted to see how Pathetic Templar DPS was...  Being 54th Level Templar with a Pristine Imbued Cobalt Battle Hammer I did 45 -80 damage and that with Adept 3 Admonishment (52nd) casted on the Enemy target to increase the Physical damage; And casting Warring Conviction Adept 3 (51st level Divine DoT) over and over !!   Still Was dead Last...   Even Soloing it takes me Minutes to kill a Solo Monster.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Only have going for a Templar is that people think our Reactive Heals are better in most Situations... as for the Amount Healed well isn't the same now for all Healers?  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Templars, although I see maybe 1 or 2 now in Raids are still used in the Main Tank's Group,  I see more Furies, Wardens, Mystics and Inquisitors in the RAIDS now.  Last few Raids out of 9 Healers of a 24 Player RAID 1 was an Inquisitor and 1 was a Templar (Me) - and I wasn't in the Main Tank's Group... who wants our crappy buffs?<BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>More truisms. And more ignoring the problem, talking about groups in places many of us do not even go to.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Where do most Templars group?  Most of the instances I mentioned are relatively easy to get to...and are quite popular at the level of your Templar.  Are you to tell me you are unaware of Hidden Cache in the Sinking Sands?  What about Shimmering Citadel - have you never once been?  What about Icy Digs?  What about Outer Grotto or Crawler's Nest in Splitpaw?  How about Miragul's Menagerie in Everfrost?  Bastion of Flames in Lavastorm?  Fyremyst Gully? </P> <P>What level is "most" for Templars?  Tell me that I'll provide a list of dozens of group instances where you can have a chance at better experience, better average loot, and even possibly some master chests.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <P>You, Kendricke, with your thousands of posts, are PART OF THE PROBLEM. Your continual avoid the issue / truisms / "we are ok really" nonsense, protected as you are in your large guild, is damaging our class even more, by obfuscating the issue present for hundreds of others.</P> <P>Its all quite clear. The Templar class needs attention, and it needs it now. It is not acceptable to have one class so much less desired in a whole domain of the game, a domain played in by thousands of players (even if you do not, and even if you do not respect it, as you clearly do not).<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't see myself as part of the problem.  I see myself as trying to clarify what the problem actually is.  I don't assume to know the answers - I track them down.  I parse them.  I log them.  I compare them.  I test them.  </P> <P>Claims were made that level 50-53 Templars can't solo blue targets in less than 5 minutes.  I provided parses showing 30 to 50 second fights.  </P> <P>Claims were made that Glory of Combat was a "useless" or "trick" spell.  I provided logs showing where it was the only healing a typical group of mine would require against typical opponents. </P> <P>Claims were made that Warden Evac is better than Cleric's Odyssey.  I've provided resources showing that we were comparing a level 39 spell to a level 13 spell. </P> <P>Yes, it's frustrating to deal with facts and numbers.  It's not touchy feely.  It's not fun.  It sometimes contradicts what we feel is correct or "common sense".  Yet, there you have it.  Am I a foil?  Perhaps.  However, it's no coincidence that I play as a priest of the God of Truth.  I don't like claims which aren't based on fact and I don't like to be told that something cannot be done when I know for fact that it can.</P> <P>Yes, there are problems with the Templar class.  Yes, we need some attention.  No, we should not exaggerate the problems in order to acheive those goals.  It's just too easy to disprove some of these outrageous claims. </P> <P>The moment we make this a subjective argument, we lose because there are too many different type of Templar players.  We all have different ideas on what we want for the class.  That's why I advocate for facts.  That's why I spend the time testing and logging and parsing.  That's why I try to share what I know to be true.</P> <P>Decry me if you wish.  Claim I'm just ignoring the problem if you wish.  Tell me you don't believe me all you wish.  However, I've yet to see so much as a line of log from you to support one thing you've ever stated.  You tell me I don't care all you want in whatever way you want - it doesn't make it any less true.</P> <P>I've been a Templar all along - not because it was a "flavor of the month".  I'm not about to jump ship now because some other flavor looks better right now.  I prefer knowledge to assumption, and I prefer fact over conjecture.  That doesn't mean I don't want a better Templar.  It means I want to know exactly what the problems are before I start telling the developers it takes us 5 minutes to solo anything, our utility is useless, and we want to change out odyssey for evac.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[BenEm]

<P>I have to agree with Caethre . I dont think your helping Templars at all Ken your only hurting us by constantly trying to prove theres nothing wrong with the Templar class ( yes I personally know you have some compliants about the class but that is not evident to someone unless they follow all your posts) . Overall I wish their were more of "the glass is half full " people like you in RL  but alas this is a mere game and a game that SOE seems to cater to the sqeaky wheel . I have to say anybody right now that plays a Templar and hasent tried a Fury is missing out bigtime on why so many Templars are upset .</P> <P>Besisdes all else ,we can see the people upset by the Temp changes out # people who like them the way they are by about 10 to 1 so ....do your Templar community some cool and quit minumizing peoples compliants . You should be able to understand that it only pisses people off when something that bothers the hell out of them is acted as trivial by you or worse yet you tell them in one way or another that they suck or there group sucks . </P> <P>Bottom line the overwhelming majority of Templars are upset with this so called class balancing and I truley would hate to see more people leave the game. SOE and the player base needs subscriptions or we get jagged on content and customer service . You need to look deep inside and make sure you can tell yourself your doing the right thing for a whole lot of pist off Templars .</P> <P>Kendrick you seem to have no sence of urgency in making your fellow Templar a happy player . You yourself and a few others are the only ones happy with Templars at the moment and I for one hope you are not chosen to represent us again in a community summit, your clearly not a main stream Templar or share the same views of the vast majority of the Templar class. I can only hope we have a more mainstream representation at the next summit ... I think Caethre would be a great choice .</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by BenEmma on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>SOE could send every player a bag full of gold and they'd still get complaints.  </P> <P>I'm not telling anyone they "suck" or their group "sucks".  I'm not saying "we're fine".</P> <P>What I am doing is trying to provid actual facts here because I want to make sure that problem that Templar X "feels" is an actual problem.  Then again, there are still Templars claiming it takes 5 minutes to solo a blue target at level 52, that Glory of Combat is useless, and that Odyssey is comparable to a Warden's "evac" spell.</P> <P>If you think all it takes is shouting to get something fixed, then continue to shout.  I personally feel differently and have reasons to support my belief.  I've tried to show this.  I've tried to explain this.  I've tried to relay this.  However, you simply can't convince some folks of some things.  To this day, there's still folks who swear <A href="http://www.apfn.org/apfn/moon.htm" target=_blank>the moon landing was faked</A>, <A href="http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/science/geochallenge.htm" target=_blank>the sun really revolves around the Earth</A>, and even that <A href="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm" target=_blank>the world is flat</A>!</P> <P>Obviously, there are folks who feel they know the "best" way to get a suggestion fixed.  I wish them luck.  Meanwhile, I'll continue to advocate factual discussion and supporting reasoning.  I'll continue to email and /feedback my suggestions.  I'll continue to take feedback from other Templars and will do my best to gain visibility for the concerns raised (for example, I hope to have an interview posted soon on Caster's Realm specifically dealing with Templar concerns).</P> <P> </P>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you are doing is what you always do, Kendricke - flooding the board with posts, treating every other post as something YOU must personally reply to and debunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you are doing is what you always do, Kendricke - flooding the board with posts, treating every other post as something YOU must personally reply to and debunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I appreciate that you feel this way.  If you truly feel I have no sway here, then why respond to me at all?  Why pay me any mind at all?  All I'm doing is expressing my point of view.  If you feel I'm in the minority, then by all means, ignore me.  If you feel my points are nonsense, then ignore them - or better yet, disprove them.  </P> <P>But constantly making posts about "Kendricke" and not "Templars" isn't focusing attention on the issues - it's focusing attention on another player.  I don't require responses, believe it or not.  However, I will typically respond to posts I feel I have a stake in.  I don't make posts about your posting "tone", or your level, or your postcount, or your age, or try to guess your motivation.  I don't call you by nicknames or even try shortening your name.  </P> <P>What I do is try to stick to the points.  What I do is challenge others on theirs.  Most folks I know don't like to be challenged, and I can readily appreciate that you likely don't like being challenged either.  It doesn't mean I'm going to stop addressing flaws I might see in your points.  What it does mean is I'll continue to avoid addressing flaws I might see in you personally...since I feel it's just irrelevant.</P> <P> </P>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you are doing is what you always do, Kendricke - flooding the board with posts, treating every other post as something YOU must personally reply to and debunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I appreciate that you feel this way.  If you truly feel I have no sway here, then why respond to me at all?  Why pay me any mind at all?  All I'm doing is expressing my point of view.  If you feel I'm in the minority, then by all means, ignore me.  If you feel my points are nonsense, then ignore them - or better yet, disprove them.  </P> <P>But constantly making posts about "Kendricke" and not "Templars" isn't focusing attention on the issues - it's focusing attention on another player.  I don't require responses, believe it or not.  However, I will typically respond to posts I feel I have a stake in.  I don't make posts about your posting "tone", or your level, or your postcount, or your age, or try to guess your motivation.  I don't call you by nicknames or even try shortening your name.  </P> <P>What I do is try to stick to the points.  What I do is challenge others on theirs.  Most folks I know don't like to be challenged, and I can readily appreciate that you likely don't like being challenged either.  It doesn't mean I'm going to stop addressing flaws I might see in your points.  What it does mean is I'll continue to avoid addressing flaws I might see in you personally...since I feel it's just irrelevant.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agreed Caethre he dose it all day long . Ken you spend your day trying to prove to people that are upset , that they have no reason to be upset ....guess what human nature says your going to [Removed for Content] off a lot of people .</P> <P>In responce to paragraph # 1 : For myself its quite the opposite I worry you have way too much sway . Why someone would ask you to represent us in a community summit is both illogical and very disturbing . With the amount of time you spend defending yourself and debunking others I can hardly see how you would be a good choice to represent our community . With all do respect I personally ask you to please do the honorable thing in the future and please do not represent us for the plain fact that you dont share the same views as the overwhelming majority of Temps . Next time please put ego aside take the honorable roll and kindly ask they pick someone more in touch with mainstream Templars .</P> <P> </P> <P>In responce to paragraph # 2  ahh but you do have posts erased by Raj stating no personal attacks ....again because you are under attack by the masses . Thats your clue your in the minority <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>In responce to paragraph # 3 : I see  5 To 8 Templars you being the lead once again telling pist off people ( your own brethren Temps )  that they have nothing to whine about and have no reason to be pist ....problem with that is human nature says now you really have them pist . I see 5 to 8 Temps pulling in one direction and I see 100's pulling in the opposite direction . If you really cared about your fellow Temp you would just let them run their campiagn and be quiet ..besides  your mostly happy with your char anyways why would you begrudge your fellow Temp that same enjoyment ? Keep in mind this is a comming from someone who is 80% to 90% in agreement with your take on Templars. </P>

[Kendricke]

<P>BenEmma,</P> <P>I represented no one save myself at the Community Summit, nor did I attempt to represent anyone beyond myself.  I do not consider myself a Templar spokeperson, nor do I consider myself a "typical" Templar.  Then again, I don't consider many of the other Templars here to be representative of the "typical" Templar, either.</P> <P>I wasn't even discussing Templar issues at the first Summit.  I was mostly there discussing guild issues and pushed hard for a guild bank, free standing guild hall, a guild registrar, and a new writ system.  I spend far more time each week administering my guild than any other game-related task, and tend to focus my energies upon that for the most part.  I'd spend a lot of time lurking within the Templar forums (as well as Guild Discussion, Guk, Armorer, Paladin, Conjuror, General Tradeskill, Newbie Yard, Combat and Encounters, and various other forums of interest to me).  </P> <P>Lately, since the combat update, I've expended a fair amount of energy and time within the Templar forums once again clarifying and correcting statements I feel to be erroneous or inaccurate.  </P> <P>As far as posts I've had removed for "no personal attacks", I expressed my concern to Raijinn on the issue and he assured me that I'd performed no direct personal attacks, but that the posts he'd removed were over the lines he considered inflammatory.  There was an adjustment period as I got used to the new moderator just as I did with Faarwolf, Moorgard, and Blackguard before him.</P> <P>And again, I have nothing against my fellow Templars personally.  However, when I see a claim that's, in my mind, outlandish or exaggerated, I'm going to say something.  I appreciate that you feel my style is perhaps abrasive to some, but I do not typically resort to discussing individuals...only the posted points raised by individuals.  </P>

[BenEm]

<P>Many thanks for clairifying your part of the Community Summit based on the following post by yourself I was very concerned you were picked to speak for the Templar community  : </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>When I went to the Community Summit in June, I asked in utter confusion how I'd been chosen from among thousands and thousands of players to have my opinions heard.  I truly had no idea why I was chosen to attend the first Summit.  I didn't even think the developers really knew who I was.  Yet, there I was on that first night, sharing drinks and rubbing elbows not only with the developers, but with some of the most well known Everquest 2 "celebrities" from throughout the various forums and fansites.</FONT></P> <P>Sorry for the confusion and I appologize if you were offended by my post .</P> <P>I guess I will have to hope that you realize the critical stage we are at with all classes right now  . The best way to explain this is to relate it to a political election , believe it or not this is the time to exaggerate ! This is the time to be outlandish !  When trying to make a case for improvement in ones class ! Just like elections have gone in the US for the last 200 years perception is everything and this is election time ! People never get to bake a cake and eat it too thats why you need to bake a huge cake and hope to get some scraps and this is where you are absolutely killing us and the end result no doubt will be less cake for all Templars <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please consider these words they have mountians of history to back them up !</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <P> The best way to explain this is to relate it to a political election , believe it or not this is the time to exaggerate ! This is the time to be outlandish !  When trying to make a case for improvement in ones class ! Just like elections have gone in the US for the last 200 years perception is everything and this is election time ! People never get to bake a cake and eat it too thats why you need to bake a huge cake and hope to get some scraps and this is where you are absolutely killing us and the end result no doubt will be less cake for all Templars <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please consider these words they have mountians of history to back them up !<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I simply disagree.  Call it a differing perspective, if you will.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[BenEm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BenEmma wrote:<BR> <P> The best way to explain this is to relate it to a political election , believe it or not this is the time to exaggerate ! This is the time to be outlandish !  When trying to make a case for improvement in ones class ! Just like elections have gone in the US for the last 200 years perception is everything and this is election time ! People never get to bake a cake and eat it too thats why you need to bake a huge cake and hope to get some scraps and this is where you are absolutely killing us and the end result no doubt will be less cake for all Templars <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please consider these words they have mountians of history to back them up !<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I simply disagree.  Call it a differing perspective, if you will.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately all Templars will pay for this ! You cannot deny human nature yet your ego just wont let it go... very sad indeed and very selfish indeed ! Its all about you aint it ?  Well folks I tried <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[RipFlex]

<P>Ken, we compare odyssey as the ONLY existing utility spell we get, ever.  To me Ultility is something used to make life easier as running fast, call to home, invis and sit there AFK getting a drink.... or shape shifting and looking cool or actaully get Ofensive/defensive abilities with it.. we get Odyssey at 13th level and Jack thereafter... Yes we get Water Breathing type spell but ALL priests do.</P> <P>Yes the times on killing a solo mob FEELS longer than if you were any other Priest let alone any other class, hence the exaggerations in actual time.  When People see my Templar getting hit 100 times on a added solo mobs be 8 or so on me, many stop, whip out popcorn, laugh or even seriously ask if I need help....  Well I don't need help because as long this takes me and 1000 times they interrupt me until their numbers drop, I will not die, except maybe from boredom.</P> <P>As for the stuns and mezzes and a pacifier... they are weak utility replacements IMO</P> <P>And Ken if you agree we need fixing but yet you disprove every claim and feeling that other Templars are complaining about, can you shed some light specifically what things do need fixing in your FACT finding?  To Agree with us and defeat every claim is confusing to say the least.</P> <P> </P>

[Truffor]

<div></div><div></div>Yesterday, I teamed with a Zerk, lvl56 as I am. He was soloing those strange mobs with a tail faking a broken pilar, 50-51ish +++ mobs. I was pretty surprised to see a melee class doing so fine on a +++ encounter. Of course, he was 56, full cobalt as I am, with prolly all his spells adept3 or so, as I am. He was killing mobs quite fast, and his life wasn't dropping very fast. Quite impressed. We teamed a bit, I had time to kill as a crafter was working for me while. We killed some then he asked me to solo one of those mob, pure curiosity. Let's go then, I debuff mob with both T6 int doll and mark of king master I and start nuking. It's long... at 70% of mobs life, I tell him I forgot int ring buff, pacify and I buff (he laughed<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and then go back on nuking job. I finally get rid of it, life is full or almost (not very important fact for a healer) but my power is between 20-40% left, just like Zerk at the end of one of his fight. It took me something at least like 5 times longer. That gave him a good laugh and he now knows how it goes for templars... With such a DPS, fights are so long that you spend a lot power healing yourself and then time too. It's... it's like ... I have no words to explain what I feel... Our job is to HEAL, his job is DPS or TANK, and then ? Why ? Explain me why, without pathetic RP arguments like healers hit for less because it has nothing to do with balance. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Truffor on <span class="date_text">11-09-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:00 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Truffor on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>I noted you didn't specify times (only that you took five times longer) nor did you mention how much life the berserker had left (only that both of you had roughly 20-40% power left).</P> <P>However, for the sake of argument, assume it took that berserker just as long to solo as it takes a healer to.  What if he could sit there five times longer than he's used to getting pounded on...and yet not require healing?  Is that balance from our perspective?  Why would anyone need a healer ever if you could take so long to kill something and yet not require healing at all.  Why would groups need a healer at all?  </P> <P>Flip the tables.  Assume you could solo five times faster.  Not only can you kill the thing as fast as a berserker...but you have the security of knowing that you can heal yourself as well.  Is that balance from the Berserker's point of view?  </P> <P>Personally, I don't spend a great deal of time soloing, and I'll admit this.  I do feel we could use some attention for those that choose such a path - even if it's just situational.  However, I don't think we're going to find Templars ever soloing as quickly as Warlocks can (as an example) as I feel it completely ignores certain aspects of our balance.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Personally, I don't spend a great deal of time soloing, and I'll admit this.  I do feel we could use some attention for those that choose such a path - even if it's just situational.  However, I don't think we're going to find Templars ever soloing as quickly as Warlocks can (as an example) as I feel it completely ignores certain aspects of our balance.</p> <hr></blockquote>This is your main problem; You accept imbalance due to classes by their name. Some classes can solo equal level ^^^ heroics and you just shrug it off by referring to devs statements (actually no one is supposed to solo blue or higher ^^^ heroics after lu13 according to devs, so I guess they just dont have a clue how to fix it). Then you say what you wrote above. You are talking double standars right there. Besides, didn't warlocks (and conjurers) say a while ago that they dont solo those heroics because they get more xp from solo mobs? So why would we if we could? What you again missed was the direct link to solo content. Now I admit there are classes that cannot solo even some yellow solo mobs, while templars can, after a long fight, kill high yellows with an up arrow even (not the nameds though).  But again the unbalance lies in the time it takes us to solo those. Even though it is relatively safe, it is by no means fun nor purposeful. So as it has been presented several times, templars being able to solo yellow ^^^'s would not make any difference to overall balance as it is not good solo xp anyway (or so they claim). So the problem you present does not exist. Balance lies only in the xp/time ratio and in the time it takes to finish a solo quest when soloing, not in how hard mobs you can beat.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <P>Personally, I don't spend a great deal of time soloing, and I'll admit this.  I do feel we could use some attention for those that choose such a path - even if it's just situational.  However, I don't think we're going to find Templars ever soloing as quickly as Warlocks can (as an example) as I feel it completely ignores certain aspects of our balance.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is your main problem; You accept imbalance due to classes by their name. Some classes can solo equal level ^^^ heroics and you just shrug it off by referring to devs statements (actually no one is supposed to solo blue or higher ^^^ heroics after lu13 according to devs, so I guess they just dont have a clue how to fix it). Then you say what you wrote above. You are talking double standars right there.<BR><BR>Besides, didn't warlocks (and conjurers) say a while ago that they dont solo those heroics because they get more xp from solo mobs? So why would we if we could?<BR><BR>What you again missed was the direct link to solo content. Now I admit there are classes that cannot solo even some yellow solo mobs, while templars can, after a long fight, kill high yellows with an up arrow even (not the nameds though).  But again the unbalance lies in the time it takes us to solo those. Even though it is relatively safe, it is by no means fun nor purposeful. <BR><BR>So as it has been presented several times, templars being able to solo yellow ^^^'s would not make any difference to overall balance as it is not good solo xp anyway (or so they claim). So the problem you present does not exist. Balance lies only in the xp/time ratio and in the time it takes to finish a solo quest when soloing, not in how hard mobs you can beat.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Where did I mention heroics at all?  Your entire argument references me discussing "heroics" or "^^^" or even specific con colors - none of which I actually mentioned.  </P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>Where did I mention heroics at all?  Your entire argument references me discussing "heroics" or "^^^" or even specific con colors - none of which I actually mentioned.  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Simple logic. Orange solo mobs are too hard anyway, even with down arrows. So with tougher opponents you need to refer to heroics. And again you failed to present anything to the matter at hand, you just decided to ignore the facts. Again.</span><div></div>

[Truffor]

Kendricke...<BR><BR>Berserker ends with roughly 60% hp, and 20-40% power. So downtime is power based<BR>I end with 80-100%hp (which means nothing for a templar) and 20-40% power too (which means far more). Downtime is the same.<BR><BR>60% life left for berserk is A FACT, proving this mob is no danger for him.<BR>20-40% power left for me (like him) is A FACT, proving this fact use same ressource for a templar, HEALING CAPACITY INCLUDED. So forget the "the security of knowing that you can heal yourself as well".<BR><BR>If you want a drawing, Zerk killed his mob within 30 secs, I kill it, NO LIES, within 2mins+ if not 3.<BR><BR>What is annoying me is not the fact I don't do More DPS than berserk but :<BR><BR>1°) THE FACT that, for a same survival capacity and same downtime, It has to be 5 times longer (and what about 100 times longer !? what is the price to pay !!!)<BR>2°) A fact you keep neglecting FACTS ANNOYING YOU. It's nice to parse DPS and heals, but you can't get ALL PICTURE without avoidance, time needed then to heal the hits you take that other classes do not take, power used this way, time that can't be used to DPS, time to cast a debuff and everything that you can't even imagine because you do not tank in your little scout groups. All those things leading you to press 500 keys a fight, consuming 5 times longer someone else, to earn same reward... Even if you mix downtime, it's easily 3 times longer...<BR><BR>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<BR> <p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Truffor wrote:<BR>Kendricke...<BR><BR>Berserker ends with roughly 60% hp, and 20-40% power. So downtime is power based<BR>I end with 80-100%hp (which means nothing for a templar) and 20-40% power too (which means far more). Downtime is the same.<BR><BR>60% life left for berserk is A FACT, proving this mob is no danger for him.<BR>20-40% power left for me (like him) is A FACT, proving this fact use same ressource for a templar, HEALING CAPACITY INCLUDED. So forget the "the security of knowing that you can heal yourself as well".<BR><BR>If you want a drawing, Zerk killed his mob within 30 secs, I kill it, NO LIES, within 2mins+ if not 3.<BR><BR>What is annoying me is not the fact I don't do More DPS than berserk but :<BR><BR>1°) THE FACT that, for a same survival capacity and same downtime, It has to be 5 times longer (and what about 100 times longer !? what is the price to pay !!!)<BR>2°) A fact you keep neglecting FACTS ANNOYING YOU. It's nice to parse DPS and heals, but you can't get ALL PICTURE without avoidance, time needed then to heal the hits you take that other classes do not take, power used this way, time that can't be used to DPS, time to cast a debuff and everything that you can't even imagine because you do not tank in your little scout groups. All those things leading you to press 500 keys a fight, consuming 5 times longer someone else, to earn same reward... Even if you mix downtime, it's easily 3 times longer...<BR><BR>Please Devs, F F S do not listen this man T-T<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I appreciate the points you're raising.  Two opinions of yours I'd be interested in hearing though:</P> <P>Do you feel all classes should solo relatively equally?</P> <P>Do you feel balance should be group based or solo based?  </P> <P> </P>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RipFlex wrote:<BR> <P>And Ken if you agree we need fixing but yet you disprove every claim and feeling that other Templars are complaining about, can you shed some light specifically what things do need fixing in your FACT finding?  To Agree with us and defeat every claim is confusing to say the least.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>We're finally catching on.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999><IMG src="http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/6175/eliana054qz.jpg"></FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999></FONT><BR> </P>

[Truffor]

In addition. I only voice in my name. I don't care if I can't kill a blue ^ ^ ^, let's say solo is not equal difficulty speaking. I don't accept killing <u>what I can</u> 5, 4 or 3 times longer than others. Fix it. <div></div>

[Truffor]

Do you feel balance should be group based or solo based? In a group setting, I do not cast our smites or very rarely. Raising Templar DPS (and power cost to balance ressources used) won't affect group balance but will affect solo balance. The main problem is within you, solo can be fixed with a minimal to no impact on groups but you can't see it... <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Suite wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RipFlex wrote:<BR> <P>And Ken if you agree we need fixing but yet you disprove every claim and feeling that other Templars are complaining about, can you shed some light specifically what things do need fixing in your FACT finding?  To Agree with us and defeat every claim is confusing to say the least.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>We're finally catching on.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You must have missed these:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=14524" target=_blank>Current Suggestions</A> and <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11100" target=_blank>Attempt at Constructive Discussion </A> explain what I think could be done <EM>for</EM> the class, and even <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=14290" target=_blank>We Are Our Own Worst Enemy </A>explains what I think we should be doing <EM>as</EM> a class.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div>Suite wrote:<blockquote><hr>RipFlex wrote:<p>And Ken if you agree we need fixing but yet you disprove every claim and feeling that other Templars are complaining about, can you shed some light specifically what things do need fixing in your FACT finding?  To Agree with us and defeat every claim is confusing to say the least.</p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ff9999" face="Comic Sans MS">We're finally catching on.</font></p><hr><p>You must have missed these:  <a href="message?board.id=13&message.id=14524" target="_blank">Current Suggestions</a> and <a href="message?board.id=13&message.id=11100" target="_blank">Attempt at Constructive Discussion </a> explain what I think could be done <em>for</em> the class, and even <a href="message?board.id=13&message.id=14290" target="_blank">We Are Our Own Worst Enemy </a>explains what I think we should be doing <em>as</em> a class.</p><hr>Now this is pretty selfrighteous. You seriously do think that your opinions = all templars opinions.You must have missed the fact that most of the templar community disagrees with you.What I think your problem is is that first you shot down every single suggestion people made with 'we are supposed to heal a group, not to solo' comment. Then you collected those suggestions and now you present them as your own. Well I haven't forgotten that you originally disagreed the suggestions you have made in the threads you referred to. So untill you admit you were wrong, well, just dont expect any kind of respect from the templars you have been putting down.<p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class="date_text">11-10-2005</span><span class="time_text">10:04 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 AM</span>

[RipFlex]

<P>Actually simply raising our 2 Smites/ 1 Divine DoT/and 1 Group Ray of (place replacement name here) to kill the SOLO mobs let's say 25% faster would be fine.  Not like we bother using any of them on Heroic mobs in a group unless throwing off a HO.  It would improve slow soloing without affecting group balance at all.</P> <P>All we are asking as Templars is a little boost to DPS to help out in soloing, period.  I doubt that's being selfish?</P> <P> </P>