2 Types of Templars

[Danter]

<DIV>The problem with the whole DPS argument, which is why there are people on both sides of the fence, is that there are 2 different types of playstyles out there.  I've have a lot of experience in the game and grouping.  I have a level 30 Assassain, a level 25 Beserker, a level 24 Warden, a level 32 Wizard, a level 39 Bruiser, a level 55 Templar, and a level 53 Guardian, so I'm assuming it's fair for me to say I've been in a fair amount of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type A - Conservative - Most common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar sits back and heals for the group, usually 5-10 feet away from the MT.  Templar does not bother auto-attacking and does not bother casting damage spells.  Templar will throw a reactive on the MT before pull and is worried if the MT tries to chain pull the next group before the pre-pull reactive is up.  Templar does not know that the "Eye" symbol is one of their skills on the HO wheel and generally ignores it completely.  The Templar may debuff, but it's too hard to tell if they are or are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type B - Aggressive - Least common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar tries to contribute to the group by using damage spells and debuffs as much as possible.  Templar is always auto-attacking and doesn't throw a reactive up or Focus Benefaction until the tank is in yellow.  Pre LU 13, Templar would constantly use HOs trying to trigger Divine Judgement which did really good damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Analysis:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are obviously two very different opinions going on in forums.  One which is that Templar DPS is horrible and the other which claims that it's balanced and who cares, since we don't need to DPS to heal anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the whole problem with people arguing that Templar DPS is fine is because they choose not to DPS in their groups and are generally someone who does not parse or does not like parses in group chat.  When you don't attack, use damage spells, and read parses between other classes, you will obviously be ignorant in DPS descrepencies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Type B profile is generally people who try and contribute damage to the group during easier battles (white heroics and under).  These people are the ones posting on the forums that Templar DPS sucks and it take 3 times longer for us to solo than any other Priest in the game.  These people also see their Templar, which they adeptly juggle healing and damage, parsing in at a weak 60 DPS for their efforts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the problem.</DIV> <P>::edited for clarification::</P><p>Message Edited by Danterus on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The problem with the whole DPS argument, which is why there are people on both sides of the fence, is that there are 2 different types of playstyles out there.  I've have a lot of experience in the game and grouping.  I have a level 30 Assassain, a level 25 Beserker, a level 24 Warden, a level 32 Wizard, a level 39 Bruiser, a level 55 Templar, and a level 53 Guardian, so I'm assuming it's fair for me to say I've been a fair amount of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type A - Conservative - Most common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar sits back and heals for the group, usually 5-10 feet away from the MT.  Templar does not even bother auto-attacking and does not bother casting damage spells.  The Templar may debuff, but it's too hard to tell if they are or are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type B - Aggressive - Least common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar tries to contribute to the group by using damage spells and debuffs as much as possible.  Templar is always auto-attacking and doesn't throw a reactive up or Focus Benefaction until the tank is in yellow.  Pre LU 13, Templar would constantly use HOs trying to trigger Divine Judgement which did really good damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Analysis:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are obviously two very different opinions going on in forums.  One which is that Templar DPS is horrible and the other which claims that it's balanced and who cares, since we don't need to DPS to heal anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the whole problem with people arguing that Templar DPS is fine is because they choose not to DPS in their groups and are generally someone who does not parse or does not like parses in group chat.  When you don't attack, use damage spells, and read parses between other classes, you will obviously be ignorant in DPS descrepencies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Type B profile is generally people who try and contribute damage to the group during easier battles (white heroics and under).  These people are the ones posting on the forums that Templar DPS sucks and it take 3 times longer for us to solo than any other Priest in the game.  These people also see their Templar, which they adeptly juggle healing and damage, parsing in at a weak 60 DPS for their efforts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the problem.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok I fit into Type A when I'm grouped so but I think your mislead on DPS.   The main arguements I've seen from DPS come from people frustrated when they solo.   I mean do you really want your healer low on power and unable to heal because they've been tossing nukes?  No you want them healing and debuffing.   Thats my opinion anyways.

[Danter]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I mean do you really want your healer low on power and unable to heal because they've been tossing nukes?  No you want them healing and debuffing.   Thats my opinion anyways. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Obviously if we can't do DPS, we have trouble soloing...or it takes a while.  They both go hand in hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't noticed, it's impossible to have less than 75% power all the time (GEBs, Prismatic, Mana regen traits) without chain pulling, even using damage spells.</DIV>

[Fivel]

I agree almost 100%.  Although I don't know if its entirely playstyle based.  I think currently that templars are all but encouraged to sit back and cast heals.  I've switched styles as time has gone on and as game changes have taken place.   When I was in the teens and 20's and even 30's I was always assisting and mele'ing in with the main tank.  It wasn't amazing dps, but it helped.  As the levels got higher, the dps disparity became more obvious between DPS and non-DPS classes, (and also because of LU13)  I went from being "in the thick of it" to  standing back and casting one debuff, 2 reactives and some other heals. The reasons I do this are. 1. The mele and nukes are barely noticable.  ( Unless its just you and a tank ) 2. The group is killing fast enough and I don't typically have the mana to spare on nukes. 3. Reactive agro changes.  Reactives used to count against the tank's agro, now they count against mine.   It used to be a cold day in H*** before I got agro, but then they changed the way reactive agro worked.  Now mobs will turn on me while I'm fighting because a few reactives went off.  Now being up close and personal makes it hard to notice when and which mob just started hitting me, and it makes it harder for the tank to notice that something happened.  If I stand back a ways and a mob splits off and heads towards me, its much more noticable.  My tank will switch targets and taunt until the mob has turned back on him.  I don't have serious agro issues now, but its not ucommon to see 1 mob break off for a  few seconds to come pound on me before getting taunted back to the fray. I suspect there are templars and the like who still get into it and mele, and I commend them, but for me the added visibility of having a mob break from the pack beats out any benefit of damage I could add to the group.  Especially considering how much more frequently it happens now due to the agro changes ( which I think happend pre-LU13 ). <div></div>

[Aleph]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The problem with the whole DPS argument, which is why there are people on both sides of the fence, is that there are 2 different types of playstyles out there.  I've have a lot of experience in the game and grouping.  I have a level 30 Assassain, a level 25 Beserker, a level 24 Warden, a level 32 Wizard, a level 39 Bruiser, a level 55 Templar, and a level 53 Guardian, so I'm assuming it's fair for me to say I've been in a fair amount of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type A - Conservative - Most common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar sits back and heals for the group, usually 5-10 feet away from the MT.  Templar does not bother auto-attacking and does not bother casting damage spells.  Templar will throw a reactive on the MT before pull and is worried if the MT tries to chain pull the next group before the pre-pull reactive is up.  Templar does not know that the "Eye" symbol is one of their skills on the HO wheel and generally ignores it completely.  The Templar may debuff, but it's too hard to tell if they are or are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type B - Aggressive - Least common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar tries to contribute to the group by using damage spells and debuffs as much as possible.  Templar is always auto-attacking and doesn't throw a reactive up or Focus Benefaction until the tank is in yellow.  Pre LU 13, Templar would constantly use HOs trying to trigger Divine Judgement which did really good damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Analysis:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are obviously two very different opinions going on in forums.  One which is that Templar DPS is horrible and the other which claims that it's balanced and who cares, since we don't need to DPS to heal anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the whole problem with people arguing that Templar DPS is fine is because they choose not to DPS in their groups and are generally someone who does not parse or does not like parses in group chat.  When you don't attack, use damage spells, and read parses between other classes, you will obviously be ignorant in DPS descrepencies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Type B profile is generally people who try and contribute damage to the group during easier battles (white heroics and under).  These people are the ones posting on the forums that Templar DPS sucks and it take 3 times longer for us to solo than any other Priest in the game.  These people also see their Templar, which they adeptly juggle healing and damage, parsing in at a weak 60 DPS for their efforts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the problem.</DIV> <P>::edited for clarification::</P> <P>Message Edited by Danterus on <SPAN class=date_text>10-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:01 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Personally, I find myself fitting into either category at times and both categories at times, depending on the group make-up and the encounter difficulty.  For instance, the other day I was healing a pet while fighting orange content (to me, not the pet), and I had little time to do anything other than cast and recast heals, along with an occasional debuff.  If, on the other hand, the tank is standing up to mobs well and my heals are sufficient, I'll complete HOs and do damage as well as the typical debuffing (the mitigation debuff seems to work well for me in groups with several melee characters).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I doubt that the controversy is as simple as you draw it up to be.  For one, even if a templar is very conservative in a group, they may still want more dps because their soloing is slow.  I also expect that there are a lot more than two opinions on the subject.  I have 18 or 19 opinions on it just of my own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alephin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Alxandra]

<DIV>I would say that I fit into Type B aggressive, despite the fact that 95% of the time, I am sitting back healing and debuffing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a raiding templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think equating dpsing to being an aggressive templar is inappropriate.  I try to contribute my maximum to a group.  My best is NOT dps.  My best is to heal.  If it's possible, yes, I will melee and nuke, but only if my mana can support it, and the situation is an obvious win.  Note that probably only 5% of the time will I be in a situation in which I can nuke and melee.  This reflects that I tend to be in groups in which I dont have time to do anything except heal and debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your argument is that templars should have better dps because if you are maximizing your contribution to a group, you should have more dps.  I would remind you that templars are not a dps class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the Everquest 2 manual that you received with the game:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Priests augment and replenish the health of their comrades to help them survive longer in combat.  Though not particularly known for their battle prowess, Priests fill a vital role in a dangerous world by sustaining the physical and spiritual needs of their party."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are described as a support class.  Our dps is understandably not our strong point.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I would rather have more healing spells than to have my dps enhanced.  I could maybe see an argument for improviing dps based on how lousy we solo now, but eh... I try to find a dpser to group up with who doesn't mind having a templar siphon off the quest updates.</DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I mean do you really want your healer low on power and unable to heal because they've been tossing nukes?  No you want them healing and debuffing.   Thats my opinion anyways. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Obviously if we can't do DPS, we have trouble soloing...or it takes a while.  They both go hand in hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you haven't noticed, it's impossible to have less than 75% power all the time (GEBs, Prismatic, Mana regen traits) without chain pulling, even using damage spells.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're missing my point.   You're making an arguement for DPS using a group scenario in which DPS is the least important skill we have.   If you are going to generalize Templars you need to use a general example.   GEBS, Prismatic, Mana regen traits?  Yeah at your level maybe but I know quite a few lower level Templars who can dip below 75% with almost anything.</P> <P>Your description of the "types" of Templars is semi-accurate.   Your use of it for a DPS arguement has no logic to it in my opinion.</P>

[Danter]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The Type B profile is generally people who try and contribute damage to the group during easier battles (white heroics and under).  These people are the ones posting on the forums that Templar DPS sucks and it take 3 times longer for us to solo than any other Priest in the game.  These people also see their Templar, which they adeptly juggle healing and damage, parsing in at a weak 60 DPS for their efforts.</DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I said in easier battles like white heroics and under, which is common for quest groups and xp groups since SOE doesn't intend for us to fight orange cons anymore.  Obviously if you're fighting a named, a raid, or high yellow/orange cons and you're the only healer, you should pretty much stick to healing unless your group is burning the mobs pretty fast and you can slip in some nukes.</P> <P>I never said we should be on par with fighters and scouts with DPS.  I never said our main role was to DPS.  All I said is what I think why certain Templars are not happy with our current DPS...and why others don't care.  If we were balanced to Druid DPS with a damage shield and/or a stronger aoe nuke, I'd be happy.  It wouldn't take us 3 times longer than every other Priest class to solo.  We'd should be able to parse at 130/150 DPS if there's another healer and we are on backup duty.  We'd also be able to deal damage somewhat efficiently if the Tank was a couple levels higher and the mobs were conning white or blue to him.</P> <P>Right now, we aren't and that's why I see our DPS as a problem.  SOE already stated that healing is balanced, so don't ask for stronger heals.  As much as we'd love them, we won't get them.</P></DIV>

[Curati]

<P>My name is Curative Bydesign</P> <P><FONT size=5>I heal</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5> I debuff</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5>I get rid of secondary crap</FONT> (the knife,snowflake,poision bottle, white thing)</P> <P>if something is taking forever to bring down and the tank is out of power I will start nuking/dot a bit<BR>HOs are completed as nessesary </P> <P>other then that as far as mellee goes I have no business being next to the tank swinging my little stick IMHO</P> <P>I do mellee when it is just me and wife duoing or if im soloing but that is about it. </P> <DIV>lumping temps into two areas is dumb becasue everyone plays how they want</DIV>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The problem with the whole DPS argument, which is why there are people on both sides of the fence, is that there are 2 different types of playstyles out there.  I've have a lot of experience in the game and grouping.  I have a level 30 Assassain, a level 25 Beserker, a level 24 Warden, a level 32 Wizard, a level 39 Bruiser, a level 55 Templar, and a level 53 Guardian, so I'm assuming it's fair for me to say I've been in a fair amount of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type A - Conservative - Most common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar sits back and heals for the group, usually 5-10 feet away from the MT.  Templar does not bother auto-attacking and does not bother casting damage spells.  Templar will throw a reactive on the MT before pull and is worried if the MT tries to chain pull the next group before the pre-pull reactive is up.  Templar does not know that the "Eye" symbol is one of their skills on the HO wheel and generally ignores it completely.  The Templar may debuff, but it's too hard to tell if they are or are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type B - Aggressive - Least common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar tries to contribute to the group by using damage spells and debuffs as much as possible.  Templar is always auto-attacking and doesn't throw a reactive up or Focus Benefaction until the tank is in yellow.  Pre LU 13, Templar would constantly use HOs trying to trigger Divine Judgement which did really good damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=2>Ah, excellent perspective you have here. Just when I think I can't read anything new on the templar forums, you come along and post this! Good going!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=2>I'm a Type B templar. I play aggressively and energentically and feel lazy when my power is full all the time. If I'm fully doing my job in a group, I am not only keeping people healthy, but I'm contributing to damage and weakening the mob, etc. My templar has had to be more passive a healer since LU13 and I never really thought about it this way, but you're right. SOE forced me to become more of a passive healer because it's harder to keep up with the heals now; I can't do much else any more and I hate that. I prefer to play a class that does more than one thing (or does one thing in several different ways, like a scout). </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=2>Anyway, thanks for the new thought. It's provocative.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=2>Suite / Eliana</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=2><IMG src="http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/6175/eliana054qz.jpg"></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ccffff size=2><BR> </FONT></P>

[kenji]

<DIV>i think i am type B after revamp.. was just playing first smite HO pre-vamp...so couldnt say really aggresive...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>keeping a good tank alive vs blue-yellow heroic doesnt need concentration at all... so must do some dmg if wanna focus more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>however...even i keep cycling 2 smites and DoT... i can only do 80 dps on non-undead mob, comparing to fury (most damaging priest) our spell is Worthless... costing 2sec x 3/4 times nukes (our 450 undead smite) = 1 fury's Bolt of Storm...which only cost 3 sec... i just feel that i am wasting my time to keep pressing smites...</DIV>

[LizzyB]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fivel wrote:<BR><BR>3. Reactive agro changes.  Reactives used to count against the tank's agro, now they count against mine.   It used to be a cold day in H*** before I got agro, but then they changed the way reactive agro worked.  Now mobs will turn on me while I'm fighting because a few reactives went off.  Now being up close and personal makes it hard to notice when and which mob just started hitting me, and it makes it harder for the tank to notice that something happened.  If I stand back a ways and a mob splits off and heads towards me, its much more noticable.  My tank will switch targets and taunt until the mob has turned back on him.  I don't have serious agro issues now, but its not ucommon to see 1 mob break off for a  few seconds to come pound on me before getting taunted back to the fray.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Now you feel the pain the furies and wardens went through since release.  While every other healers heals put agro on the person it was cast on the druids put the hate on them which meant if the tanks first attack wasn't a taunt then we would instantly have agro. <BR> <P></P>

[Uadan]

<P>I can or have to live with the changes to my main templar. The choice of class was based on what they could do. Now I have to live with what he can do now. I solo most of the time and have noticed a large decrease in HO damage and a decrease in reactive heals. In groups I find that it is a fine line on the levels of mobs dictating how close I have to watch my and my group mates health. If the mobs are hiting for more or close to what the reative heals then I have to chain heal. This happens with blue ^^ mobs and above. </P>

[Xerxess]

<P>I am a type A Templar.</P> <P>I usaully just cycle my Reactive heals and with an occasional Arch Heal. I use Reproch, Warring Convic., Curate, and Mark of Kings. I tend to fall below half mana sometimes in fights but thats because sometime the main tank looses aggro and mobs start beating on casters.</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>I am type C.</P> <P> </P> <P>I tank, heal, debuff and dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P></P>

[NosmokIng]

Type B here in groups but raiding type A. Thing is. If healing is about equal then DPS should be also. else its all just B&^^$417. I mean... we're alll equal in heals but we have the lowest DPS etc. That is not equal.  The whole point is... its wrong...Change the words EQ Profession for RL race/creed and you get the idea. Its wrong. Either make everything equal so in effect there are about 3 classes - fighter, spellcaster priest or, make us different and give each one individual benefits that balance out. What we add to a group wise... DPS ect isnt balanced. And if most other classes knew the facts about the underbalance of heals Vs functionality and DPS then getting a group for templers would be even harder.  Its only historical that people pick up.. But that will change just like in EQ1.. people sooner or later start to figure out the most effective group and the rest of the classes go sit with LFG on. Though I secretly believe SOE hammered templers for the pure reason a hell of a lot of people started templers on EQ2 because of how they always got groups - hence the original number of Templers being so high.  Now with the last two patches of nerfing.. the numbers are dropping (and will continue to drop) hence I think they planned this.  If the numbers of hours played or more recent played characters of templers drop even further. SOE might think hmmmm ok the numbers are getting too low... now we can rebalance them properly. <p></p>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR><BR>The whole point is... its wrong...Change the words EQ Profession for RL race/creed and you get the idea. Its wrong.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Most ridiculous statement I've seen all day.    You can really compare game classes to race/creed?  /boggle</P> <P> </P> <P>As for hammering Templars, you think SOE conspired to irritate people and drop the number of Templars to....what?  What does annoying your customer base accomplish?   Every class was nerfed to a degree because the content wasn't fitting the classes.   There are no black helicopters, no FEMA controlling SOE, and I can assure you the devs don't work in Area 51.   There will always be "preferential classes" like right now where all I ever hear about is Warlocks and Furies.   If you want to be the "best class" you are going to be re-rerolling a lot.</P>

[Seeai]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The problem with the whole DPS argument, which is why there are people on both sides of the fence, is that there are 2 different types of playstyles out there.  I've have a lot of experience in the game and grouping.  I have a level 30 Assassain, a level 25 Beserker, a level 24 Warden, a level 32 Wizard, a level 39 Bruiser, a level 55 Templar, and a level 53 Guardian, so I'm assuming it's fair for me to say I've been in a fair amount of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type A - Conservative - Most common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar sits back and heals for the group, usually 5-10 feet away from the MT.  Templar does not bother auto-attacking and does not bother casting damage spells.  Templar will throw a reactive on the MT before pull and is worried if the MT tries to chain pull the next group before the pre-pull reactive is up.  Templar does not know that the "Eye" symbol is one of their skills on the HO wheel and generally ignores it completely.  The Templar may debuff, but it's too hard to tell if they are or are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Type B - Aggressive - Least common:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar tries to contribute to the group by using damage spells and debuffs as much as possible.  Templar is always auto-attacking and doesn't throw a reactive up or Focus Benefaction until the tank is in yellow.  Pre LU 13, Templar would constantly use HOs trying to trigger Divine Judgement which did really good damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Analysis:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are obviously two very different opinions going on in forums.  One which is that Templar DPS is horrible and the other which claims that it's balanced and who cares, since we don't need to DPS to heal anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the whole problem with people arguing that Templar DPS is fine is because they choose not to DPS in their groups and are generally someone who does not parse or does not like parses in group chat.  When you don't attack, use damage spells, and read parses between other classes, you will obviously be ignorant in DPS descrepencies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Type B profile is generally people who try and contribute damage to the group during easier battles (white heroics and under).  These people are the ones posting on the forums that Templar DPS sucks and it take 3 times longer for us to solo than any other Priest in the game.  These people also see their Templar, which they adeptly juggle healing and damage, parsing in at a weak 60 DPS for their efforts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the problem.</DIV> <P>::edited for clarification::</P> <P>Message Edited by Danterus on <SPAN class=date_text>10-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:01 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=1> <P>It's kinda silly in my opinion to categorize Templars into two types. Not all Templars play this game for the same reasons so therefore healing requires different "types" for the situation. For example.. I play my Templar in raids 95% of the time and 99% of the time in the MT group. My job is to conserver my manna and heal to the best of my ability and keep the MT up which in tern keeps the raid going. There is no time to fool around and go up to the mob and go on auto attack.. in fact, in most cases that would kill you and you would have the raid yelling at you. So you stand back at max range healing mostly through the mob and only when your power allows do you debuff. Smite doesn't even come into the picture. Now more then ever before since the changes Templars have to really watch their power. </P> <P>Now for a Templar who doesn't raid they still fall into different category's of healing based on many things like if they mostly quest or heal for a group as the only healer, or healing in a group who is suicidal lol (I'm always in the suicidal group) so putting 2 types of category's for healing just isn't possable and doesn't apply to a lot of people. </P> <P>I am not in the group/raid for dps.. I am there to heal and its a very vital role to the raid existence.</P> <P>SO I am Type X - Whatever I need to be</P></FONT></DIV>

[Copperha]

Did SoE intentionally conspire to annoy people playing Templars? No. Did they accomplish it through incompetence, lack of testing and the SoE philosphy of push it out the door now, fix it (maybe) later? Yes. Same result so who cares how it came about?

[Copperha]

Oh and if you really believe that all classes got nerfed, I suggest you go roll yourself a Ranger and give him/her a try. You will realize just how wrong your statement is. 

[Keirl]

Danterus is right, there are two playstyles for templars.  A conservative style and an aggressive style.  Each of those playstyles comes with a perception of what the class is.  You can think of the playstyles as being on opposite ends of a sliding scale.  Most players fall in between the two, but clearly their are some that gravitate more toward one end or the other.    The conservative templar tend to focus on tending to the health of their group.  They avoid nuking when possible to keep a reserve of power in case an emergency arises.  They develop clearly defined patterns of healing in an attempt to ensure encounter situations do not get out of hand.   Your aggressive templar will most often be the one that solos.  They will aggresively nuke in a group situation when healing is not required.  They will melee.  They are the ones who will most often take a risk and mix things up.  They actively try to contribute more than just healing and buffs. Again most people fall somewhere in between these two extremes.  They will heal as needed and throw in nukes when they can.  Maybe even swing their hammer on occasion.   <b>In the end, there is no right or wrong style.  As long as you are keeping your group alive you are performing your job.</b>  That is all thats important.  The problem arises where a players perception of the class blinds them to its full potential.  That is whats occuring now to the templar class, just as it did to clerics in EQ1.  A segment of the templar community has the perception that you are a support class and that it is all you should ever be.  They see your only role as healing and tending to the others players needs.  While it is a valid playstyle, their vocal perception of the templar class will hinder it from ever reaching its full potential.   For example, the reason why the fury class is so successful in recieving attention from SOE is because they have a shared vision of what their classes is.  They don't limit their class to one role; healer or damage.  They see their class as both, and so they aggresively seek to advance their class in all aspects.  They take any advantage that is given to them with open arms because they know that when they do well, they and their groups will benifit from it.  They will always reach for more because they see themselves as a class that fufill more than one role.   Templars on the other hand hamstring themselves at every opportunity.  While other classes chip away at templar abilities to benifit themselves, the templars maintain a good enough attitude about themselves.  Why ask for more healing when I heal well enough.  Why ask for more nukes or DPS when I heal well enough.  Heaven forbid a templar should want more than healing.  You crucify your own who want to contribute more to a group than a heal and a buff.  All in the name of your perception of what a templar is.  Is it so wrong to want something more?   In case you havn't figured it out yet, SOE wants all the priests to heal equally well.  When you lose your slots in a group because you aren't the best healer on the block anymore what are you going to fall back on?  Even if you are the best healer if your healing isn't needed because that fury over their heals well enough and can nuke also what are you going to fall back on?  Soloing?  Oh wait, templars aren't meant to solo right?   Until you all get on the same page and see your own class as more than a support bot you will never get the attention you deserve.  More and more will leave your ranks for greener fields bitter about the whole experience.  You will lose great templars from your ranks, players who really enjoyed being the best templar they could be.  Players who truely want to see the templar class evolved and current.  When the last of those who want to see something better for the templar class has left who will raise their hand to be heard when it becomes apparent you have become functionally broken and outdated? Take a look at what spells you have and if you see nothing but healing then by all means continue your agenda, but if you see something more then don't stand in the way of those who want to progress and fight for it. <div></div>

[Alxandra]

<DIV>sigh...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As Ive already posted to this thread, trying to classify templars as two types doesnt work well. Seeaira's post is excellent in regards to those of us raiding templars who spend most of our time keeping everyone alive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is some validity in the concept that there are two camps out there, but I think that is too polarizing.  What really is happening is that there are many different styles to playing a templar.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the issues that I haven't really seen addressed is that there are too many templars out there.  Because templars used to be the best all around healer, many people levelled up templars, and now with the balancing of the classes, we have an excess of templars.  As a raiding templar, this is painfully obvious to me.  What's making it even worse is that the combat changes have made templars even better main tank healers.  But, then the question is what do we do when we aren't main tank healing, because typically there can be only one main tank healer.  Realistically, templars still make excellent secondary healers but we now have to share that job with other classes, and, oh my, sometimes a different class will be picked over us because they have (hmmmm) say elemental group cure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, it is to be expected right now that there will be some loss to the templar ranks.  This is not a bad thing.  I just wished that it might be easier for those switching classes to switch.  We have to acknowlege that we used to be unbalanced.  What I dont want to accept is being nerfed into a worthless class.  Realistically, I believe, templars are still the best healing out there, but it is  by such a fine margin, if it is even true anymore.  But, if it is true that a fury can main tank heal better than a templar, then SOE better take a look at this and do something.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not mind at all being a full-fledged healer.  To me, it is my class definition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER , I am currently taking great delight in our most recent nerf.  SOE is going to make sanctuary (if they haven't already) only work on detrimental spells.  GRINS Um, I guess SOE doesn't like my casting sanctuary on a pull and tossing focused benefaction up and then, um, casting anything else that i might desire, cause Im not stunned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess SOE didnt like the fact that I could load a tank down with approximately 12,000 hps of healage within like a second or two of the tank pulling.  Um, that's why furies still dont like us, cause we can still lay down healage much faster than they can.  The only problem is that templars only need/can heal like that if the tank is taking an enormous amount of damage, and the damage is in small increments.</DIV>

[Helmarf]

Maybe it is the solo templar who complains alot!

[Arielle Nightshade]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <P>I am type C.</P> <P> </P> <P>I tank, heal, debuff and dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>LOL agree....almost.  I"m a Type C as well.  I don't sit in the back row but I'm not Tanking, either.   My main focus is healing and debuffing - DPS in a good group is usually to complete HOs.  I try and keep the MT no lower than Low Green only for the problem of lag spikes in some zones.  It's also important to heal the "secondary crap" (as Curative says)...because, well..I'm a healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm rarely, if ever, in a group for my damaging capability...my melee damage of ..what ..30?  Probably won't make or break the fight..so I'd rather stand back just a little so I can enjoy the pretty graphics.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR></DIV>

[ShockG1]

Hello all, I totally agree with Arielle, I'm "Type-C as well.  I sit back and focus primarily on my job, which is healing, secondary I consider to be debuffing.  Don't get me wrong I'll cast a few nukes....er DOT's, but only if the battle is going well, and I have extra power to spare.  I'll leave the main DPS to the group DPSers, and the tanking I will leave up to the MT and secondary tank.  Seems to have done me just fine so far.  :smileywink:  <p>Message Edited by ShockG1 on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 PM</span>

[leucol]

<P>How about "None Of The Above"?</P> <P>The way I play my 57 templar varies according to group makeup and types of mobs.  First priority is healing, everything else is situational.</P> <P>If the mobs are being killed fast, then I don't even bother debuffing.  I conserve power for heals so we can pull more before I run OOP.</P> <P>If the group lacks DPS, then I will DoT and nuke...I'll also melee if group DPS sucks bad enough to make my contribution noticible.</P> <P>If the group is a little underpowered for the mobs we're fighting, then I'll debuff and stun.</P> <P>I also use Harmony a lot unless everyone is in AoE mode, then I save it for adds and times I get agro.</P> <P> </P> <P>As far as the whole "Templar DPS Sucks" thing...the only time it becomes an issue is when soloing.  Is there a way to increase templars' DPS while soloing without making them unbalanced for grouping?  Sure there is...self-only damage shield.  Completely worthless in a group, it would be a godsend for templars who need to solo sometimes.  Make it proc every tick for 1 point of damage for every level of the templar to every mob thats agroed on the templar.</P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Radar-X wrote:I mean do you really want your healer low on power and unable to heal because they've been tossing nukes?  No you want them healing and debuffing.   Thats my opinion anyways. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Obviously if we can't do DPS, we have trouble soloing...or it takes a while.  They both go hand in hand.</div> <div> </div> <div>If you haven't noticed, it's impossible to have less than 75% power all the time (GEBs, Prismatic, Mana regen traits) without chain pulling, even using damage spells.</div><hr></blockquote>If your group's healer has time to sit around and nuke most of the time and still be at 75% power, you need to fight harder stuff or something.  And [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], your groups must be boring if you are never below 75% power.  The most entertaining battles, imo, has everyone left with very little power and maybe half dead, having defeated at least one encounter that cons higher than all your group members.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Alxandra wrote:<div>sigh...</div> <div> </div> <div>As Ive already posted to this thread, trying to classify templars as two types doesnt work well. Seeaira's post is excellent in regards to those of us raiding templars who spend most of our time keeping everyone alive.  </div> <div> </div> <div>There is some validity in the concept that there are two camps out there, but I think that is too polarizing.  What really is happening is that there are many different styles to playing a templar.  </div> <div> </div> <div>One of the issues that I haven't really seen addressed is that there are too many templars out there.  Because templars used to be the best all around healer, many people levelled up templars, and now with the balancing of the classes, we have an excess of templars.  As a raiding templar, this is painfully obvious to me.  What's making it even worse is that the combat changes have made templars even better main tank healers.  But, then the question is what do we do when we aren't main tank healing, because typically there can be only one main tank healer.  Realistically, templars still make excellent secondary healers but we now have to share that job with other classes, and, oh my, sometimes a different class will be picked over us because they have (hmmmm) say elemental group cure.</div> <div> </div> <div>So, it is to be expected right now that there will be some loss to the templar ranks.  This is not a bad thing.  I just wished that it might be easier for those switching classes to switch.  We have to acknowlege that we used to be unbalanced.  What I dont want to accept is being nerfed into a worthless class.  Realistically, I believe, templars are still the best healing out there, but it is  by such a fine margin, if it is even true anymore.  But, if it is true that a fury can main tank heal better than a templar, then SOE better take a look at this and do something.  </div> <div> </div> <div>I do not mind at all being a full-fledged healer.  To me, it is my class definition.</div> <div> </div> <div>HOWEVER , I am currently taking great delight in our most recent nerf.  SOE is going to make sanctuary (if they haven't already) only work on detrimental spells.  GRINS Um, I guess SOE doesn't like my casting sanctuary on a pull and tossing focused benefaction up and then, um, casting anything else that i might desire, cause Im not stunned.</div> <div> </div> <div>I guess SOE didnt like the fact that I could load a tank down with approximately 12,000 hps of healage within like a second or two of the tank pulling.  Um, that's why furies still dont like us, cause we can still lay down healage much faster than they can.  The only problem is that templars only need/can heal like that if the tank is taking an enormous amount of damage, and the damage is in small increments.</div><hr></blockquote>Shhh, don't let the secrets out.  Templars may realize they really DO have strengths over those blasted Furies and then we won't have these threads to respond to! I do have a question tho - do Reactives heal for whatever is "left over" when the duration ends? </span><span>If they don't, they should, because </span><span> I know my single target ward does for my Defiler.  i</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>I do have a question tho - do Reactives heal for whatever is "left over" when the duration ends? </SPAN><SPAN>If they don't, they should, because </SPAN><SPAN> I know my single target ward does for my Defiler.  i<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Prior to the revamp, this was true.  However, during beta, it was decided that adding an extra "trigger" instead of the add on heal you'd get at the end of duration would be more effective since it appeared that most reactives never survived a full duration.  <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, prior to the revamp, you'd get 8 triggers out of Crucial Intercession and one add-on heal if the duration expired on the spell.  After the revamp, you simply get 9 triggers of Crucial Intercession.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Topi]

There are two type of people in the world. Those who put people into two catergories and those who do not