it just went live:he

[Selene1]

from the update notes: - All Druid, Warden, and Fury specialty regeneration spell lines now regenerate as much health per tick as a Cleric reactive heal. The number of ticks granted by the spell was reduced by 1, but the overall amount healed is much greater:    - Druid: Regrowth    - Warden: Blessing of the Grove    - Fury: Fleshweave - All Druid group specialty regeneration spell lines now regenerate as much health per tick as a Cleric group reactive heal. The total amount of ticks granted by the spell was reduced by 1, but the overall amount healed is much greater. The range of the spell effect was increased to 25 meters to match that of other group specialty heals.    - Druid: Winds of Renewal    - Warden: Blessing of the Earth    - Fury: Ram's Growth - Druid and Warden Arch Healing spell lines tick 2 less times, but the amount healed per tick was increased. The initial amount of the heal was also increased.    - Druid: Effloresce    - Warden: Nature's Embrace - Druid and Warden Group Heal spell lines have an increased tick amount:    - Druid: Sylvan Wind    - Warden: Healing Breeze suddenly i dont feel bad anymore about parking selenei for a while. <div></div>

[Supernova17]

This is very good! Druids can now attempt to keep up with Clerics instead of taking a backseat while we heal 5x better than them. This brings their special heals closer to ours as it should be. Templars are not the only healers in the game. <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

You could have just posted this on one of the other 3 or 4 threads talking about this already.

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:You could have just posted this on one of the other 3 or 4 threads talking about this already. <div></div><hr></blockquote>True, but we need a freash thread to start whining in before the flaming comes. /shrug <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>This is very good!<BR><BR>Druids can now attempt to keep up with Clerics instead of taking a backseat while we heal 5x better than them. This brings their special heals closer to ours as it should be. Templars are not the only healers in the game. <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But were still left behind on dps and utility. If all preists heal equally, then they should dps equally and have the same utility. <p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 AM</span>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>SnowKnight wrote: But were still left behind on dps and utility. If all preists heal equally, then they should dps equally and have the same utility. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class="date_text">10-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:44 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Gah! Quicker than I imagined!!! Sure, lets all heal and dps equally and throw the class system out the window while we're at it!</span><div></div>

[NosmokIng]

Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, Cllap clap. So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no?<div></div>

[Curati]

all i have to say about what the OP posted is: So what?

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR>But were still left behind on dps and utility. If all preists heal equally, then they should dps equally and have the same utility. <P>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:44 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Gah! Quicker than I imagined!!!<BR><BR>Sure, lets all heal and dps equally and throw the class system out the window while we're at it!<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The class system went out the window with "All healers heal equally"<BR>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Let me guess.  Another "veteran" of EQ1 who remembers the "glory days" of the Cleric?</P> <P>Supernova17 isn't "shooting down" concerns he's asking for a more compelling arguement than "our one trick pony has been traded in for a crackajack toy."</P>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Well at least the changes were thoroughly tested before going live.  24 hours is good, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[cadrach]

<P>Radar -X what is your take on balance?  Do you want to see it or are you like supernova and only want balance if there is inbalance?  </P> <P>I think this is interesting that people who say that there should be balance in healing do not think there should be a balance anywhere else.</P> <P>*boggles*  </P>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Radar-X wrote:<p>Let me guess.  Another "veteran" of EQ1 who remembers the "glory days" of the Cleric?</p> <p>Supernova17 isn't "shooting down" concerns he's asking for a more compelling arguement than "our one trick pony has been traded in for a crackajack toy."</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Stop it haha, you're killing me! You rock Radar! To Snow: You guys are trolling the posts making the whole deal seem 10x worse than it really is. It's not my fault for trying to argue with you, when you spread nonsense over the boards /shrug</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well at least the changes were thoroughly tested before going live.  24 hours is good, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Several hundred parses in a live environment after a month of tens of thousands of parses isn't good enough?  This is a tweak, nothing more.  The sky isn't exactly falling here, is it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My advice is to gather some numbers, constructively build a few arguments on what we'd like, and then see about putting those posts together in a non-defeatist/non-apologist manner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So if it's not for combat or you can go buy an item to do it, then it doesn't count in the great "balance" equation.  Okay, I understand now.  I must be DPS balanced with a mage then since I bought a wand that casts a fireball.<BR></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have,<BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff. </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok, so how have you disproven what I've stated?  Getting angry is one thing.  Getting angry at someone for pointing out facts you dislike is another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <P>Radar -X what is your take on balance?  Do you want to see it or are you like supernova and only want balance if there is inbalance?  </P> <P>I think this is interesting that people who say that there should be balance in healing do not think there should be a balance anywhere else.</P> <P>*boggles*  </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My take on balance.   Its hard for me to say to be 100% honest.   Game balance to me is like being in the middle of a game of Jenga.  Now pulling something out or putting something back in could seriously jeporadize the game as a whole.  </P> <P>Now whether anyone will admit it or not we were overpowered (in healing) pre LU#13.  Yes I came from EQ1 too and remember the Clerics but this isn't EQ1 and never will be and that was made clear eons ago.   I should not be able to duo Red con mobs with ease.  Its not how they want their content played so SOE made an adjustment across the board that nerfed the living crap out of us and fixed that.</P> <P>I personally asked Lockeye what our utility was and he stated it was the proc heals from things like GoC, etc...   What am I supposed to say?   You're a freaking liar?  We are not developers and we no matter how much we try can't be biased. </P> <P>There are too many mixtures of concerns in here.  Being honest with you?  I don't give two craps about raiding because I don't do it.  Does that mean I don't want the raiders happy?  No.   It just means I'm not going to argue about raiding issues.   Would I like to see us able to solo faster?  Absolutely but I've yet to see an arguement compelling other than "Well so and so has this" *point*</P> <DIV>Until you guys can come together and put something up that is more than "Its not fair" or "This sucks" or "Give us DPS!!11!!  " I can't see anything compelling them to make changes.   Then again I'm just one man with one opinion.   I respect everyone who has a differing opinion as long as they can argue it.</DIV>

[SnowKnight]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have,<BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff. </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, so how have you disproven what I've stated?  Getting angry is one thing.  Getting angry at someone for pointing out facts you dislike is another.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You like to deal with facts, well that was one, the DOT you count as among our dot spells is freely available to any preist class. It is hardly an exlcusive to the templar subclass, as you seem to imply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for disproving. Have you proven what you said?, until you have there is in fact nothing to disprove.</DIV><p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 AM</span>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well at least the changes were thoroughly tested before going live.  24 hours is good, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Several hundred parses in a live environment after a month of tens of thousands of parses isn't good enough?  This is a tweak, nothing more.  The sky isn't exactly falling here, is it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My advice is to gather some numbers, constructively build a few arguments on what we'd like, and then see about putting those posts together in a non-defeatist/non-apologist manner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Wake up and smell the coffee.  What WE NEED here is for a few people to take a more realistic look at the class and stop running around posting that everything is fine no matter what they do. THAT could well be the biggest problem the cleric archetype faces.</DIV>

[ShockG1]

Look at that, the templar subclass has been shafted again.  Now one of our only plusses of being a Templar(Reactive Spells) heal for exactly the same amount as all other classes, while our direct heals don't even come close to healing for the same amount as all other subclasses.  Why not just get rid of the Templar class all together?

[Analviper]

<DIV>Gotta agree about the class system going out of the window... since the combat changes al live heard is wardens and furys moan about how little their heals do. but then templars are stuck dealing 200 - 300 per hit. how are you supposed 2 solo?  Ok our heals are the best whoopy do.. if ur on ur own and all u cna do is heal till you run out of mana what good is that? and now since combat changes we have 4 nukes!!! i mean come on. Templars are supposed 2 be heavy armor wearing priests 2... how many do u know that cna take a hit without intercession on???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as the live update goes.. i scroll down a list of lots of class changes and see no Templar alterations at all.. perhaps SoE think we are a balanced class... Perhaps they should play as a templar for a day and see that In DoF expansion the only thing templars can kill solo is crocs on the beach and the time it takes to do so with such pittyful Dps isnt even worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to talk about unblanced classes where are our evac's and group invis's etc. we have nothing of any use other than heals and debuffs it makes soloing impossible.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well at least the changes were thoroughly tested before going live.  24 hours is good, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Several hundred parses in a live environment after a month of tens of thousands of parses isn't good enough?  This is a tweak, nothing more.  The sky isn't exactly falling here, is it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My advice is to gather some numbers, constructively build a few arguments on what we'd like, and then see about putting those posts together in a non-defeatist/non-apologist manner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Wake up and smell the coffee.  What WE NEED here is for a few people to take a more realistic look at the class and stop running around posting that everything is fine no matter what they do. THAT could well be the biggest problem the cleric archetype faces.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm recommending that we gather hard facts and present them in a manner condusive to discussion.  You seem to be advocating panic and mob action.  Please correct my apparant misperception, but what exactly is the approach you feel is best for enacting positive change?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SnowKnight]

I vote rioting!

[ShockG1]

Correction our heals were the best, now all other healing classes are equal to us. Even though, like it was said earlier in this thread, our damage out put is now wheres close to the others.  /shout:   Any one want to form a group with a Tank, a DPS, and 3 Templars!  PST  <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by ShockG1 on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>ShockG1 wrote:Correction our heals were the best, now all other healing classes are equal to us. Even though, like it was said earlier in this thread, our damage out put is now wheres close to the others.  /shout: Any one want to form a group with a tank, dps and 3 templars!  <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I would like to hear your opinion when you have the power of our Tier6 heals behind you and no level 40 spells none of us really use anymore because we are comparing T6 Druids to T6 Templars here. </span><div></div>

[ShockG1]

OH pardon me Supernova17, I didn't recall any part of this thread stating that we are comparing only Tier6 Druids and Tier6 Templars.  My bad, I stand corrected.  It won't happen again.

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShockG1 wrote:<BR>Correction our heals were the best, now all other healing classes are equal to us. Even though, like it was said earlier in this thread, our damage out put is now wheres close to the others.  /shout: Any one want to form a group with a tank, dps and 3 templars!  <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would like to hear your opinion when you have the power of our Tier6 heals behind you and no level 40 spells none of us really use anymore because we are comparing T6 Druids to T6 Templars here. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have my t6 heals (most of) and I agree with him. SOE agrees with him (Remember : All healers heal equally). To exclude his opinion simply because he isn't teir 6 is just arrogance. He can still compare his templar with a druid near the same level, and have a valid opinion.<BR>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShockG1 wrote:<BR>Look at that, the templar subclass has been shafted again.  Now one of our only plusses of being a Templar(Reactive Spells) heal for exactly the same amount as all other classes, <STRONG>while our direct heals don't even come close to healing for the same amount as all other subclasses</STRONG>.  Why not just get rid of the Templar class all together?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm sorry.. are you on GLUE!? Templars and Defilers have the largest single target direct heals in the game.. PERIOD! Please do some research before spouting nonsence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also.. Please keep in mind that Reactives and HOT's work totally differently.. yes. the NUMBER is the same.. but how it actually effects gameplay is totally different.. In a situation where the mobs aren't hitting more frequently than 1 time per tick. the Druid will win out.. where mobs hit more than once a tick (most of the time this is the case) the reactive will win out as it will go off on every hit..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This update was to attempt to bring the Warden class back in line as far as healing potential with the other classes as they were severely underpowered before..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: and your "All other classes" is incorrect.. this change only effected Druids. Not Templars, or <STRONG>Shamen </STRONG>(The "other" priest class)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously.. they're trying to fix a much broken class.. how the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is this a nerf to Templars?!?!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Duntzzzz on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>

[Jhaan-Kre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you please tell me where to get the DoT from splitpaw? Seems they only gave me a heal with a 2 sec cast, 5 sec recast (worse than my native heals - i dont use it).If i can get more dots, i would be in heaven.</P> <P> </P>

[Analviper]

Im sorry Duntzzz if youre talking about wardens being underpowered ( which i agree on) since the update then surely u must realise that 200-300 with and adept 3 smite is pathetic Dps... i dont think Templars are bothered about the fact Wardens can now heal better.. i certainly am not in fact good the more ppl can heal the easier it is 2 keep tanks alive etc.. but what ppl are [Removed for Content] about is the fact that EVERY other class is gettin Group invis, Group feing Deaths upgraded heals etc and there are NO alterations to Templars and the pathetic ammount of Dps we do.

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhaan-Kreii wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you please tell me where to get the DoT from splitpaw? Seems they only gave me a heal with a 2 sec cast, 5 sec recast (worse than my native heals - i dont use it).If i can get more dots, i would be in heaven.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oops its actually from bloodlines lol . Its made by a sage, and is a lvl 35 spell by the name of Symbol Of Corruption. The spell from Splitpaw was Bounty Of The Viruous.

[Fivel]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> NosmokIng wrote:Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, Cllap clap.So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </p> <p>We're still the best at what we do.  </p> <hr></blockquote> What?  Just out of curiosity, what is it that we do best?</span><div></div>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Analviper wrote:<BR>Im sorry Duntzzz if youre talking about wardens being underpowered ( which i agree on) since the update then surely u must realise that 200-300 with and adept 3 smite is pathetic Dps... i dont think Templars are bothered about the fact Wardens can now heal better.. i certainly am not in fact good the more ppl can heal the easier it is 2 keep tanks alive etc.. but what ppl are [Removed for Content] about is the fact that EVERY other class is gettin Group invis, Group feing Deaths upgraded heals etc and there are NO alterations to Templars and the pathetic ammount of Dps we do. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually.. "EVERY" other class does not have group invis.. the only ones I know of are Furys, Illusionists, and Brigands.. Didn't know there was a group FD.. cool!..</P> <P>Patience is a virtue.. the fact that Templar DPS (Wich is very close to Defiler DPS, I've parsed it personally with my guild) is not a game breaking issue means that it will probably be taking a back-seat until they get the major issues out of the way.. Like the ability for Wardens to keep a group alive.. they simply didn't have it before, and it was something that needed WAY more attention than the DPS of Templars (Or any priest class for that matter)</P> <P>There are only so many programmers / developers, and in a situation where they have basically re-written the game they need to prioritize what they need to do, and fixing GAME BREAKING issues is the top of the list.</P> <P>I would love to see DPS for priests increased accross the board, but I know I'm going to have to wait until the rest of the major issues are ironed out and they will have time to do all the fine-tuning that needs to be done after a revamp.</P> <P>I just find it hilarious that people want something from every class that gives that class a slight advantage, and don't look at what they have that's an advantage over the others (ie the templars ability to heal HP)</P> <P>So let's make a Superclass.. we'll call it Templarific.. they have the largest direct heals, Reactives, Wards, HoT's, group invis, SoW, Evac, Oddessy, Higher mitigation than a Guardian, Higher avoidance than a Monk, Feign Death, and a Smite that is un-resistable and does twice the damage of ice comet, with a 1 second recast timer and is point blank AE.</P> <P>Seriously people.. You have as much utility as every other priest class.. it may not be what you would like, but the other priests would love to have what you have just as much.. Take the blinders off and look at the picture as a whole.</P> <P> </P>

[Jida]

<P>/agree that we are the best at what we do.</P> <P>But it would be nice to be able to solo at a respectable pace.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Jida]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhaan-Kreii wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you please tell me where to get the DoT from splitpaw? Seems they only gave me a heal with a 2 sec cast, 5 sec recast (worse than my native heals - i dont use it).If i can get more dots, i would be in heaven.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Same.. ive only seen the heal<BR>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I personally asked Lockeye what our utility was and he stated it was the proc heals from things like GoC, etc...   What am I supposed to say?   You're a freaking liar?  We are not developers and we no matter how much we try can't be biased. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We're going in an endless circle here.  Our primary ability is healing, and we keep being told that our utility is additional healing.  So if our primary ability PLUS our utility are both healing, we must necessarily wind up with superior healing to other classes which benefit from other utility, including significantly more DPS, in order to have any semblance of balance among classes.  But wait, we MUST have balance among healers, so let's balance the healing out.  But don't forget, YOUR utility is extra healing ...<BR>

[Jida]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhaan-Kreii wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you please tell me where to get the DoT from splitpaw? Seems they only gave me a heal with a 2 sec cast, 5 sec recast (worse than my native heals - i dont use it).If i can get more dots, i would be in heaven.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oops its actually from bloodlines lol . Its made by a sage, and is a lvl 35 spell by the name of Symbol Of Corruption. The spell from Splitpaw was Bounty Of The Viruous. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That dot only works against vampires IIRC.<BR>

[SnowKnight]

Scroll up I answered this a bit earlier <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SnowKnight]

No it works against anything. I use it all the time, so Im pretty sure of this :smileyhappy:

[Jida]

nice.. whats the name so i can lookie it up.. i dont have it.. im 54.. is it worth it?

[SnowKnight]

<DIV>Im 57 and it does 33 per tick at about 110 int. Has a fairly fast cast time and last a long time for little power (about 40 I think), and a wis debuff as well. Symbol Of Corruption is its name. Worth casting for the extra dps, mobs go down just that little bit quicker, even though its pretty grey now it doesnt get resisted much.</DIV><p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 AM</span>

[Xaax]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I usually stay out of this stuff but I was very curious about a few points in this thread.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I would like to say:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><SPAN><SPAN>1)<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>YEA, for the druids, glad they got a bump in healing. </SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><SPAN><SPAN>2)<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>I didn’t have any issues healing before or after any updates and don’t really notice much od a difference in the effectiveness of my healing ability over the past year or so</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00><SPAN><SPAN>3)<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Solo as a templar sux badly and I don’t do it which is why I like the harmony type of spells so much, I can harvest while LFG. Then again I don’t remember a time when solo’n for a templar was worth the time it took.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00> I personally asked Lockeye what our utility was and he stated it was the proc heals from things like GoC, etc...<SPAN>   </SPAN>What am I supposed to say?<SPAN>   </SPAN>You're a freaking liar?<SPAN>  </SPAN>We are not developers and we no matter how much we try can't be biased. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>What you are saying is that Mark of whatever, Invol. Curate, GoC is our utility and thus all of our utility is healing yet Templars are not the best healers and should not be the best healers? Why is that? </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I do think that the weakest part of a Templar is that fact that we can wear plate yet gain almost no benefit from it. I know we do not have skills like parry, repost and what not but it would seem to me that mitigation should make more of a difference then reduce 500 points of damage by 5 points. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>I am fairly happy now with my Templar, I can heal against named mobs that are 2-3 levels higher then the tank in our group. I would be more then a happy camper if we were able to swing that weapon in our hand for some decent DPS or make it seems like the plate we wear is doing something.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Xaax on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xaax wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00> I personally asked Lockeye what our utility was and he stated it was the proc heals from things like GoC, etc...<SPAN>   </SPAN>What am I supposed to say?<SPAN>   </SPAN>You're a freaking liar?<SPAN>  </SPAN>We are not developers and we no matter how much we try can't be biased. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>What you are saying is that Mark of whatever, Invol. Curate, GoC is our utility and thus all of our utility is healing yet Templars are not the best healers and should not be the best healers? Why is that? </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Xaax on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I want to thank you for pointing out an inconsistency in my communication of that and all I'm saying is what was told to me.  I don't have it on tape or video it was just a sidebar conversation that I had so it didn't interrupt more important questions.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As that statement reads even the ability to heal "more" or "faster" at one time does not make a Templar the "best healer."   Different healers have different debuffs and nukes so that makes them a different flavor of healer.</DIV>

[Xaax]

<DIV><FONT color=#66cc33></FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc33>As that statement reads even the ability to heal "more" or "faster" at one time does not make a Templar the "best healer."<SPAN>   </SPAN>Different healers have different debuffs and nukes so that makes them a different flavor of healer.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc33>I am still loosing you? When it comes down to it the more and faster you heal means the bigger and more mobs you can kill. Templars do not get slow, invis. , SoW, DS, and what ever those shimmies and druid folk get. Our utility is Mark of Kings, invol. Curate, Amending Fate, GoC and such which comes down to healing more. Much different then a direct heals, reactive heals, regens and wards no doubt but it is still healing. I assume that in the end what makes an effective healer is:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33><SPAN><SPAN>1)<SPAN>  </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>how much of a reduction in damage your tank is taking</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33><SPAN><SPAN>2)<SPAN>  </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>how much health you are restoring to the tank per second/minute <SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc33>So other then healing per second and damage reduction what are you using to measure the effectiveness of a healer?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#66cc33>I am assuming that we are not talking about a raid environment, single group encounters that the tank is holding agro with an every now and then rip from your locale nuker/back poker.</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Shainea]

<DIV>Howdy all.</DIV> <DIV>I dont post much, but read alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something was pointed out yesterday in the discussion of the Wardens heals compared to the Templars BoV line (reactives).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets take this to the chalkboard.  Im going to use hypothetical numbers here, so please forgive the inaccuracy of the exact amounts, and follow the logic, if you will please.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar_A has a Reactive heal that has the potential to heal 500 hps in 6 seconds and costs him 50 mana (please, this is just a logic argument - we dont need to argue the accuracy of the numbers - they are just an example). The catch is the tank has to be hit in order for the heal to go off - the nature of the Reactive heal. If Templar_A casts a Reactive at the end of a fight to try to top his tanks' HP off - he just wasted 50 mana and maybe got 200 hps healed before the mob died.  The remaining potential of the Reactive heal was never used.</DIV> <DIV>RESULT - The tank is not fully healed, even though Templar_A cast his Reactive heal spell. To keep fighting - I would have to throw out a direct heal - using more mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warden_A has a Heal Over Time (HoT) which heals 500 hps in 6 seconds and costs him 50 mana.  Same scenario - The warden would like to make sure the tank ends the fight "topped off" so the group can continue fighting.  As the engaged mobs nears death,  Warden_A casts his HoT. The mob dies after the HoT only healed for 200 , howerver the HoT spell keeps on working, thus healing the tank for the full effect.</DIV> <DIV>RESULT - Tank is fully healed at the end of the fight, taking advantage of the HoT spell's full effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont see how the efficiency in healing of the two classes can be compared here. Since the mechanics behind how our heals operate are completely different, its hard to compare them. We are comparing Apples to Oranges, even though they both produce juice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, Im not one to point out a problem and not have a proposed solution. No sense in discussing a problem unless our goal is to come up with a solution, and we as a community owe it to ourselves to come up with solutions to the problems we experience as a class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a proposed solution, we could change the way the Reactive heals work, so that if an encounter ends before the Reactive has a chance to do its full potential - the difference is returned to the templar (I dont think this is a good solution). OR the reactive could "proc" and finish its effect off on the tank (or group in the case of a group reactive).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In conclusion, the mechanics behind how our heals work are completely different.  I am glad for our priest brethren for getting a boost to their healing abilities, it appears that it was sorely needed.  Now, I am not going to say Im not jealous - when you compare the amount of HP's healed versus mana costs it appears (on paper) that the Warden class has a greater healing potential than us.  My fear, and opinion, is that the desire to group with a Templar (as opposed to the other healing subclasses) will go down. Now, I already shelved my Illusionist due to lack of desireability in groups, I would really hate to have to shelve my templar as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will let experience be my guide before I pass judgement, right now all I have are my gut feelings and some chicken scratch on some paper with what I perceive the problem to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I welcome any feedback.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Carpathian Aurelius</DIV> <DIV>Nektulos Server</DIV>

[Spag]

<DIV>Warden here, and I appreciate the few of you that understand how bad it was for us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be glad to give you an honest opinion if you care to hear it, and will be glad to discuss any comparisons that you may like.  I am at this point lvl 47, so I can only compare up to this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not here to flame or troll, but to discuss this with you or clear up any misconceptions you might have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing that seems to be recurring is warden DPS is being lumped in with Fury DPS.  The Warden and Fury classes are much more different than many realize.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have 2 DD nukes currently at adept1.  I nuke for 250 and 350.  This I believe is near in line with what you have, maybe a bit higher.  This brings up another point.  Being a druid means that we gave up AC for DPS.  As a result, if I get aggro in a group, I often die after a couple hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These were just a few things I wanted to point out.  Either way, I am here if you would like to discuss things, if you would rather I go away, I can do that as well.</DIV>

[Sassyone]

<P>I looked at the somewhat active list of templars on the server (based it on those leveling) and there are 26 total. There use to be over 70+..what does that say for how templars feel?</P> <P>Right now I see no real benefit to put a templar in a group or raid over a druid or shaman. The reactives we were so known for now also belong to druids plus they have utility. So, I will bide my time playing an alt or something as I wait for Vanguard.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>I looked at the somewhat active list of templars on the server (based it on those leveling) and there are 26 total. There use to be over 70+..what does that say for how templars feel?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Where does one find such a list?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>The reactives we were so known for now also belong to druids plus they have utility. So, I will bide my time playing an alt or something as I wait for Vanguard.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think you are missing the core of what that update is.. They changed the Wardens HoT number for what it heals to that of what the cleric reactive does.. So the Reactive is say 400 per <STRONG>HIT</STRONG>.. and the HoT of equivalent level is 400 per <STRONG>TICK</STRONG>.. They DID NOT give Wardens a reactive.. and you're utility is all the spells mentioned above by other posters....<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>(Why does it take so long for some people to get this)</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Let me lay it out for you one more time..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics: Reactives</DIV> <DIV>Durids: HoT's</DIV> <DIV>Shamen: Wards</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Direct Heals (Excluding Wardens) are all 1 small fast casting, 1 large slow casting, 1 group. Numbers and cast times are different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Utility:</DIV> <DIV>Clerics: Oddessy</DIV> <DIV>Templars: Extra Healing (That's right.. EXTRA)</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors: DPS Procs, Fear, etc..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shamen: SoW</DIV> <DIV>Mystics: Ability to Over Heal, AE Slows, etc...</DIV> <DIV>Defilers: Better Slows, Large Debuffs, Fear, DPS Procs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid: SoW</DIV> <DIV>Warden: Evac, somewhat higher DPS</DIV> <DIV>Fury: Group Inviz, Higher DPS (Smaller heals)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Duntzzzz on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jhaan-Kreii wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>Supernova17 seems to troll the boards and shoot down any concerns the rest of us have, <BR>Cllap clap.<BR>So... they now heal for the same. Can I have a get out of gail free evac please.  a sow to make it easier on the early levels? Dot's? OH.. what no? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warden 5 second cast time Evac doesn't work in combat.  Totems of the Spirit Wolf work just as well as a Mystic's, and you don't have to be anywhere close to the shaman to keep the effect.  We have DoT's...one with a Wisdom debuff.  </P> <P>We're still the best at what we do. </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That dot with the wisdom debuff is from splitpaw and any preist class can get it. Templars have a total of ONE dot native to the class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you please tell me where to get the DoT from splitpaw? Seems they only gave me a heal with a 2 sec cast, 5 sec recast (worse than my native heals - i dont use it).If i can get more dots, i would be in heaven.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oops its actually from bloodlines lol . Its made by a sage, and is a lvl 35 spell by the name of Symbol Of Corruption. The spell from Splitpaw was Bounty Of The Viruous. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If it's from bloodlines, then no every other priest cannot get that spell; you only share it with inqs cuz the bloodlines spells were CLASS specific not archetype specific like sp. Drds get a single target only pow/agi/pow regen buff and shammys I believe get a dps debuff.

[Sural_Argonus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR>I vote rioting! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I vote for more beer.  Much better that way. 

[Sinnester]

<P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Kadaan stated:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>I vote rioting! </FONT></P> <P>OMG....Kadaan </P> <DIV>We could be the perfect pair!!  Move to Guk!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sinnester on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Spagma, I'm curious about your statement " <font color="#ffff00">Being a druid means that we gave up AC for DPS.  As a result, if I get aggro in a group, I often die after a couple hits</font>." I don't recall seeing anything from Sony upfront enough to give even that kind of hint (and never played eq1).  Would it not be the case that lesser armoured healers (supposedly anyway, ignoring how well our armour actually works), got a larger HP, rather than DPS in exchange? I know if I get aggro in a group, I also die, number of hits depends on the mob.  Because with the heavy armour meaning I don't avoid anything, I get interrupted so much I can't get our stun off, let alone a heal. Personally as my guild has mostly wardens as high level healers, I'm delighted that you can actually like HEAL again, but I can't help but wonder if our being able to wear any armour, yet not get much benefit from it, is really such a class advantage.  The obvious utility that other classes/sub-classes get, certainly outweigh the advantages I've personally received from the likes of odyssey. <div></div>

[Jida]

<P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_advsearch.vm" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_advsearch.vm</A></P> <P>41 active high level templars on Crushbone (52+ = active IMO)<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>I looked at the somewhat active list of templars on the server (based it on those leveling) and there are 26 total. There use to be over 70+..what does that say for how templars feel?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Where does one find such a list?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Jida on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:19 PM</span>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>I looked at the somewhat active list of templars on the server (based it on those leveling) and there are 26 total. There use to be over 70+..what does that say for how templars feel?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry.. it has to do with how overpowered they were before the revamp.. You should have looked at the server numbers before the revamp..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it would be close to</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars: 120ish</DIV> <DIV>Wardens: 100ish</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors: 80ish</DIV> <DIV>Furys: 60ish</DIV> <DIV>Mystics: 40ish</DIV> <DIV>Defilers: 2ish</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People gravitate towards the "Easy" classes, or the ones that have a brutally clear advantage over others.. I know of a few people who retired their Mystics, and Furys, and Defilers for Templars before the revamp because they couldn't handle how hopeless our cases were.. they have now gone back to the classes they originally chose because that was the class they really wanted to play, but for them to have a hope at healing a group effectively, they had to roll a Templar or Warden </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sural_Argonus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>I looked at the somewhat active list of templars on the server (based it on those leveling) and there are 26 total. There use to be over 70+..what does that say for how templars feel?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry.. it has to do with how overpowered they were before the revamp.. You should have looked at the server numbers before the revamp..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it would be close to</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars: 120ish</DIV> <DIV>Wardens: 100ish</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors: 80ish</DIV> <DIV>Furys: 60ish</DIV> <DIV>Mystics: 40ish</DIV> <DIV>Defilers: 2ish</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People gravitate towards the "Easy" classes, or the ones that have a brutally clear advantage over others.. I know of a few people who retired their Mystics, and Furys, and Defilers for Templars before the revamp because they couldn't handle how hopeless our cases were.. they have now gone back to the classes they originally chose because that was the class they really wanted to play, but for them to have a hope at healing a group effectively, they had to roll a Templar or Warden </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's not really an accurate way to judge it.</P> <P>I am on my templar just about every day.  But I am not out leveling.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Spag]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR>Spagma, I'm curious about your statement " <FONT color=#ffff00>Being a druid means that we gave up AC for DPS.  As a result, if I get aggro in a group, I often die after a couple hits</FONT>."<BR><BR>I don't recall seeing anything from Sony upfront enough to give even that kind of hint (and never played eq1).  Would it not be the case that lesser armoured healers (supposedly anyway, ignoring how well our armour actually works), got a larger HP, rather than DPS in exchange?<BR><BR>I know if I get aggro in a group, I also die, number of hits depends on the mob.  Because with the heavy armour meaning I don't avoid anything, I get interrupted so much I can't get our stun off, let alone a heal.<BR><BR>Personally as my guild has mostly wardens as high level healers, I'm delighted that you can actually like HEAL again, but I can't help but wonder if our being able to wear any armour, yet not get much benefit from it, is really such a class advantage.  The obvious utility that other classes/sub-classes get, certainly outweigh the advantages I've personally received from the likes of odyssey.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Hmm, good point, I cannot say where I heard it, but I do recall that being presented to me before I chose a healing class, but it also follows along the Mage vs Tank progression.   High DPS / Low AC   vs High AC / Low DPS.  This was even the case within the fighter structure when concerning Brawlers  vs Warriors and Crusaders.  Its possible I may have just assumed the DPS was the trade off for light armor, seeing as the druid is more offensive based priest, and also wears light armor.</P> <P>I cannot say much for your Utility, I would have to put Odyssey in line with Sow as that seems to be the trade off at that level.  But from what I have seen and been told (again may have been mislead), your utility is in the form of incombat utility with heal procs, mez and such.  From the sidelines it does seem weak, and probably needs to be balanced as well. </P> <P>I do know that all healing should be equal.  Though they can balance AC/HP Utility, and DPS against each other to differentiate us.</P><p>Message Edited by Spagma on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_advsearch.vm" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_advsearch.vm</A></P> <P>41 active high level templars on Crushbone (52+ = active IMO)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh, by that standard, I don't count as active as I'm still about 20% from 52 (but then again, I'm not spending my time online actively pursuing level 52 yet).  The hours I spend online don't count, I guess.  We should also discount any Templar who just became a Templar, or any Templar who just came back to the game.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it would be close to</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars: 120ish</DIV> <DIV>Wardens: 100ish</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors: 80ish</DIV> <DIV>Furys: 60ish</DIV> <DIV>Mystics: 40ish</DIV> <DIV>Defilers: 2ish</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is my belief that while before the big combat revamp wardens were the 2nd best healer in the game, it did not reflect greatly in the number of wardens in the game.  Most druids went Fury.  Depending on how far back you go, it used to look something like this:</P> <DIV>Templars</DIV> <DIV>Furys</DIV> <DIV>Mystics</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors</DIV> <DIV>Wardens</DIV> <DIV>Defilers<BR></DIV>

[Jida]

No malice intended upon my behaf. Just stating that if a toon was 50 at launch, they more than likely have already leveled to 52 if they were persuing leveling. I used 52 as a ball park number, and i did say "active high level templars".. Pick whatever number u choose.. its all grey area to me =).<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Jida wrote: <div></div> <p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_advsearch.vm" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_advsearch.vm</a></p> <p>41 active high level templars on Crushbone (52+ = active IMO)</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Oh, by that standard, I don't count as active as I'm still about 20% from 52 (but then again, I'm not spending my time online actively pursuing level 52 yet).  The hours I spend online don't count, I guess.  We should also discount any Templar who just became a Templar, or any Templar who just came back to the game.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

Spagma said  "<font color="#ffff00">I do know that all healing should be equal</font>. " I agree entirely with that, fortunately so does Sony, and they've never stated otherwise. I'm at a loss how posters who say anything different expect the less than equal healers to ever get a group Utility, dps, armour, buffs, debuffs  - these don't ever get a healer a group.  A raid spot maybe. So I'm delighted to see wardens get some healing back.  Hopefully its enough. I don't think your mage vs fighter DPS vs AC comparison works though - thats archtype. I think comparing the dps & utility say between fighter classes would be fairer  - given that the ability Sony try to balance for fighters is to keep the mobs attention and stay alive. There they (we - I play a paladin), at least got a stance to speed up soloing.  Something down right painful on (most) priests. <div></div>

[Spite]

<DIV> <P><STRONG>Oh, by that standard, I don't count as active as I'm still about 20% from 52 (but then again, I'm not spending my time online actively pursuing level 52 yet).  The hours I spend online don't count, I guess.  We should also discount any Templar who just became a Templar, or any Templar who just came back to the game. - Kendricke</STRONG></P> <P>By that standard no you don't. Almost every post on the combat changes has a comment by both you and Radar-X.  With the slow development of your characters, I would tend to value both your opinions lower than someone who is highly active - playing and leveling their characters.</P> <P>Please dont take this as a personell attack becuase it really isnt intended as one. It is my personal opinion when looking for subject matter experts you look to those who are more active. Should I totally discount your opinion - no. Should I take it with a grain of salt - yes.</P></DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><STRONG>Oh, by that standard, I don't count as active as I'm still about 20% from 52 (but then again, I'm not spending my time online actively pursuing level 52 yet).  The hours I spend online don't count, I guess.  We should also discount any Templar who just became a Templar, or any Templar who just came back to the game. - Kendricke</STRONG></P> <P>By that standard no you don't. Almost every post on the combat changes has a comment by both you and Radar-X.  With the slow development of your characters, I would tend to value both your opinions lower than someone who is highly active - playing and leveling their characters.</P> <P>Please dont take this as a personell attack becuase it really isnt intended as one. It is my personal opinion when looking for subject matter experts you look to those who are more active. Should I totally discount your opinion - no. Should I take it with a grain of salt - yes.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I actually do kind of take that personally because I play my Templar almost nightly.   Just because I'm not level 54 (OMG I'm only 48 almost 49) doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.   The "highly active" players and raiders only make up a small percentage of the playerbase so you can choose whose opinion you'd like.   I don't post on every combat change post just the ones rehasing the same thing that has been said 200 times already.  I haven't heard a new opinion in probably two weeks.</P> <P>No saying that don't take what I said as a personal attack.  I respect and welcome your opinion and honestly it makes no difference whether you believe me, Kendricke, Caethre, Lockeye or anyone else.   Honestly?  Ask anyone that knows me and they'd probably tell you to take everything I say with a grain of salt but I'll always admit when I'm wrong.<BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<P><EM>"Just as Taleswapper had expected.  The preacher retreated to authority as soon as he feared his ideas could not stand on their own merit.  Reasonable argument was impossible when authority became the arbiter..."  -Seventh Son, by Orson Scott Card</EM></P> <P>It's easy to fall back on the argument that some arbitrary mark of authority is the ultimate indicator of whether or not a point is valid or not.  However, unless the point itself is restricted by that abitrary standard, then a point is a point is a point - regardless of who raises it, whether that be a level 20 Templar or merely a level 51.</P> <P>I daresay that the issues raised here are affecting Templars of all stripes and activity levels.  Instead of shooting down points based only on the level or presumed activity of those making the statements, perhaps it would serve a greater purpose if all points were weighted purely on their content and truth.  ...just a thought.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 AM</span>

[Sinnester]

<DIV>How can anyone really define what active is?   I would have to give the term active several different degrees.   From low to the player that logs on 2-3 time a week for several hours and then to high, the player that logs on every day from 4 - ? hours.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would catagorize the Guk server as being low to medium activity for templars.  Many people on Guk have several alts that they alternate playing.   As of 10/19, there is only one lvl 60 templar and one lvl 59 templar.   On other servers, there are already 15-30 lvl 60 templars.  My opinion - this is completely server dependant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who knows their class?  This is dependant on the person playing.   I have known lvl 20 templars who were knowledgable and know lvl 60 templars who don't have a clue how to play their class.   Some people strive to learn all they can about their class, others just want to heal and have a little fun.   High-End raiding is a different knowledge.  The end game is different and you need to experience it to learn the knowledge. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Sinnester on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 AM</span>

[dwor]

on Blackburrow only 2 level 60's and 2 level 59's

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR> <DIV>How can anyone really define what active is?   I would have to give the term active several different degrees.   From low to the player that logs on 2-3 time a week for several hours and then to high, the player that logs on every day from 4 - ? hours.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would catagorize the Guk server as being low to medium activity for templars.  Many people on Guk have several alts that they alternate playing.   As of 10/19, there as still only one lvl 60 templar and one lvl 59 templar.   On other servers, there are already 15-30 lvl 60 templars.  My opinion - this is completely server dependant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who knows their class?  This is dependant on the person playing.   I have known lvl 20 templars who were knowledgable and know lvl 60 templars who don't have a clue how to play their class.   Some people strive to learn all they can about their class, others just want to heal and have a little fun.   High-End raiding is a different knowledge.  The game is different and you need to experience it to learn the knowledge. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well put.   Active is a completely subjective term.  I know people who are online hours a night but spend a good portion of that time chatting because that is what they like to do and thats fine.   The level of someone, how many hours they log, and especially how many posts they have (yes I'm pointing that in my direction) doesn't make someone an expert.</P> <P>Its the attitude, commitment, and time spent learning the class that makes up an active player.  I'm unsure of the number of Templars on my server but being its a lower population server I'd guesstimate no more than 10 T6 Templars.  11 if I'll quit doing Maj Dul stuff and get back to hunting.</P>