We are sadly underbalanced

[NosmokIng]

We are sadly underbalanced. I say this as a person who has no problems getting a group. Not because of my skills just because of my talkative nature.  So this isnt a we cant get groups thread. Any class can get or make a group. But what we have as Templers - is that our one trick pony has been traded in for a crackajack toy, where the jack of all trades(druids) finally passes us in most circumstances. We're supposed to be the plate wearing templer.. Yet leatherwearing druids have so much more utility So the druids (furies / wardens) get HoT in addition to Evac (get out of gail free, SoW, invis, dots etc and burst heals). Hey we got CoH...  which after all other buffs used, we get to put on the main tank.. nice.. You cant tell me that thats fair. Why does is take us to be completely nerfed before us clerics / templers do anything. I've been here before...i.e. years in EQ1. We need to band together now and need a real spokesperson. SOE only listens to the most vocal. And spareme the.. "well its not live yet..". Ive trodden that wear path too many times in EQ1 and EQ2. <div></div>

[Sinnester]

I agree, we need a spokesperson who understands the Templar class and isn't afraid to speak out, one who doesn't stand there with their thumb up their nose and tell SoE "Oh, Templars are great and happy with everything you have done with the healing class".   *Smile*, *Kiss SoE's Hiney".

[cadrach]

<DIV>Aye we are not balanced anyone that says otherwise is sorely mistaken.</DIV>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR>I agree, we need a spokesperson who understands the Templar class and isn't afraid to speak out, one who doesn't stand there with their thumb up their nose and tell SoE "Oh, Templars are great and happy with everything you have done with the healing class".   *Smile*, *Kiss SoE's Hiney". <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR><BR>SOE only listens to the most vocal.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Based on what evidence?  How many times has Ethec posted in this forum?  How many times has Ethec ever posted on the official forums?  Yet, there he was at the second Community Summit, representing a Templar's opinion. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just raising a stink isn't enough to gain SOE's attention.  Raising valid points and issues in a constructive manner will gain far more productive attention than just yelling for the sake of yelling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> NosmokIng wrote:SOE only listens to the most vocal. <hr> </blockquote> <div>Based on what evidence?  How many times has Ethec posted in this forum?  How many times has Ethec ever posted on the official forums?  Yet, there he was at the second Community Summit, representing a Templar's opinion. </div> <div> </div> <div>Just raising a stink isn't enough to gain SOE's attention.  Raising valid points and issues in a constructive manner will gain far more productive attention than just yelling for the sake of yelling.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Thank you!!!</span><div></div>

[Alectra]

<P>I agree and  I as a templar  if I had the dps of a better class then mine I would nuke Soe in the butt.If you look from beging of the game and all the updates there are very very few good updates for temps..I used to be in a hurry to see if we got good updates for our class now I look to see how our class is going to be more useless in groups and soling.......</P> <P>I dont care about flames on templar from people who dont even play the class .They  dont realy see in groups or soling how it is for playing a temp .Aye many may travel with them but to be the person on the other side playing char is a totaly diffrent situation and it can be very very frustrating to us temps...</P> <P>About buffs what good are buffs lines when we got  a couple buffs we can only cast on one person like our str and wizdom buff... thought that would benifit the party if the whole party could have that ...</P> <P>I also love the part of trying to heal a group member and  what happends FIZZEL how the heck could I fizzel  alot when we killing the oppreiate mobs at our lvl .</P> <P>I would say templar got the shaft in this game ....</P> <P>I  just hope one day that soe realy will looks into this and see what we are all talking about as templar..</P> <P> </P> <P>Alectra -52 Templar ....</P> <P> </P>

[Supernova17]

Everyone fizzles alot after the CC.... It's not just Templars <span>:smileysurprised:</span> I know this because my 54 Warlock and 41 Paladin seem to get an unusual ammout of fizzle - fizzle - fizzle....... <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alectra wrote: <P>About buffs what good are buffs lines when we got  a couple buffs we can only cast on one person like our str and wizdom buff... thought that would benifit the party if the whole party could have that ...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I tend to place that on the assigned fighter.  With the revamp, stats mean much more (particularly wisdom for spell resists). </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Alectra]

<P>I didnt realize it was all classes that had the fizzling too I hear it alot from temps ...glad thats not only me then hehe...</P> <P>Ty Ken i'll try that on my main tank too..I was just realy happy of the stats it gaved me hehe just wanted  to share it with all group members hehe...</P> <P>Alectra-52 templar</P>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>NosmokIng wrote: But what we have as Templers - is that our one trick pony has been traded in for a crackajack toy, where the jack of all trades(druids) finally passes us in most circumstances. <font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff"> We're supposed to be the plate wearing templer.. Yet leatherwearing druids have so much more utility</font><font color="#ffffff"> </font> <font color="#ffffff"> </font> So the druids (furies / wardens) get HoT in addition to Evac (get out of gail free, SoW, invis, dots etc and burst heals). <font color="#ff99ff"><span>Templars have far more in-combat utilities than wardens.  You get Sanctuary.  You get a 100% combat rez.  You get debuffs.   I'm not sure what else you're looking for.   SoW?  Not a combat utility, and lets face it:  by level 50 every one has a horse or carpet.  Before that, people can buy a 7 shot totem for a gold.  Our evac is a nice spell, but its unusable in combat - 5 sec cast time and interruptable.   If the stuff hits the fan, who's gonna keep that group alive for 5 seconds?  And God help you if you get interrupted.  In reality, it's a nice out of combat <font color="#ff99ff">transportation spell.  We have </font><font color="#ff99ff"><i>no burst heals</i></font><font color="#ff99ff">.    We have no debuffs.  And you get twice as many heals as we do.</font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font></span></font><font color="#ff99ff"><span>I do understand that templars have dps problems.  And I gather from reading your forums there are issues with heavy armor.  I think you have every right to be proactive about getting your issues addressed.  But from what I can see, your issues do not seem to include utility.  </span></font><font color="#ff99ff"><span>Templars are a lot more well rounded than you lead people to believe. </span></font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Supernova17]

I am all for the idea of worrying about our own problems and working out strategies / tips and info etc. Instead we're all either complaing that Druids are better than us or pointing out that we're still better / equal in many aspects. Too many Templars are worrying too much about the other classes, it's no wonder we're having problems. <div></div>

[Gcha]

Well, we get "equality" rammed down our throats constantly so naturally people look at the question of what's not equal.

[Alectra]

<DIV>I get a headack worring about my class if I was to think of all the other classes I would get a migraine lol. I am just hopeing that some of templar issue can get looked at ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alectra - 52 Templar</DIV>

[NosmokIng]

>>Based on what evidence?   Almost 6 years as a Everquest 1/2 playing cleric/templer Healer - i think I know SOE as a customer quite well... and a previous very vocal member of the EQ1 Cleric community (.nod other guys/gals). I.e. the cleric epic - which was even mentioned on the BBC or the Warrior Issue where all warriors logged at teh same time to bring attention to an issue Maybe you need a History lesson? We need a spokesperson who champions our cause and I’m very sorry to say but certain people (2 imo) seem endlessly to ignore what a high proportion of the rest of us are saying.. Oh yes you can write very eloquently and push down everysingle post... doesnt change the fact that this board is full of the same issue. <div></div>

[Analviper]

<DIV>Totally agree. have managed to keep myself from the forums for 52 levels now but with every update there is just more and more to go against Templars.</DIV> <DIV>We wear the same armour as tanks yet bruise like fruit. We have good crushing weapons yet do no damage. Since the combat changes and at lv 52 i have 4...yes 4!!! Nukes Templars will be familiar with our one DoT Warring Conviction and then 1 Group attack Namely beams of faith... im sorry but how are you supposed 2 solo when you have 4 attacks? i group with a level 60 ranger who can hit for over 6,000. my highest damage 280 with beams of faith. its pathetic. Todays update is a great example of the almost discrimination agaisnt Templars. i look down a massive list of class change and come 2 "t"... not a templar change in sight. i dont know about you guys but i remember being level 35 and soloing with no problems. since i hit 45 i havent dared leave qeynos unless grouped becuase its just not worth it. the mobs i can kill take 5 - 7 mins per fight because i have 2 heal so much and do such pathetic damage. and then i get 0.1% xp for it? i mean come on SoE give us a chance eh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Galv (cerberus)</DIV> <DIV>52 Templar</DIV> <DIV>Neriak Server</DIV>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Analviper wrote:<div>Totally agree. have managed to keep myself from the forums for 52 levels now but with every update there is just more and more to go against Templars.</div> <div>We wear the same armour as tanks yet bruise like fruit. <font color="#ff0000">Tanks have parry, we do not. Tanks have tower and kite shields for additional blocking. </font>We have good crushing weapons yet do no damage. <font color="#ff0000">Low STR stat and lack of melee combat arts. </font>Since the combat changes and at lv 52 i have 4...yes 4!!! <font color="#ff0000">We're healers. </font>Nukes Templars will be familiar with our one DoT Warring Conviction and then 1 Group attack Namely beams of faith... im sorry but how are you supposed 2 solo when you have 4 attacks? i group with a level 60 ranger who can hit for over 6,000. my highest damage 280 with beams of faith. its pathetic. Todays update is a great example of the almost discrimination agaisnt Templars. <font color="#ff0000">No, this is a fix to a long time flaw. Druids have never been remotely capable of keeping up with a Cleric, and the performance gap was staggering.</font> i look down a massive list of class change and come 2 "t"... not a templar change in sight. i dont know about you guys but i remember being level 35 and soloing with no problems. since i hit 45 i havent dared leave qeynos unless grouped becuase its just not worth it. the mobs i can kill take 5 - 7 mins per fight because i have 2 heal so much and do such pathetic damage. and then i get 0.1% xp for it? i mean come on SoE give us a chance eh?</div> <div> </div> <div>Galv (cerberus)</div> <div>52 Templar</div> <div>Neriak Server</div><hr></blockquote>I'll concede solo exp sucks, but this isn't a Templar problem. </span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Analviper wrote:<BR> <DIV>Totally agree. have managed to keep myself from the forums for 52 levels now but with every update there is just more and more to go against Templars.</DIV> <DIV>We wear the same armour as tanks yet bruise like fruit. <FONT color=#ff0000>Tanks have parry, we do not. Tanks have tower and kite shields for additional blocking. </FONT>We have good crushing weapons yet do no damage. <FONT color=#ff0000>Low STR stat and lack of melee combat arts. </FONT>Since the combat changes and at lv 52 i have 4...yes 4!!! <FONT color=#ff0000>We're healers. </FONT>Nukes Templars will be familiar with our one DoT Warring Conviction and then 1 Group attack Namely beams of faith... im sorry but how are you supposed 2 solo when you have 4 attacks? i group with a level 60 ranger who can hit for over 6,000. my highest damage 280 with beams of faith. its pathetic. Todays update is a great example of the almost discrimination agaisnt Templars. <FONT color=#ff0000>No, this is a fix to a long time flaw. Druids have never been remotely capable of keeping up with a Cleric, and the performance gap was staggering.</FONT> i look down a massive list of class change and come 2 "t"... not a templar change in sight. i dont know about you guys but i remember being level 35 and soloing with no problems. since i hit 45 i havent dared leave qeynos unless grouped becuase its just not worth it. the mobs i can kill take 5 - 7 mins per fight because i have 2 heal so much and do such pathetic damage. and then i get 0.1% xp for it? i mean come on SoE give us a chance eh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Galv (cerberus)</DIV> <DIV>52 Templar</DIV> <DIV>Neriak Server</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'll concede solo exp sucks, but this isn't a Templar problem.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It IS a templar problem, due mainly to our low dps.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR>Well, we get "equality" rammed down our throats constantly so naturally people look at the question of what's not equal. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Who's ramming "equality" down our throats constantly?  In the past 30 days, Moorgard has used the word "equal" (or variations on it) exactly twice - both in regards to mitigation of fighters.  In the past 90 days, Moorgard's used the word (or variations) a grand total of 8 times - not once in regards to priests specifically, and only ONCE in any way that could be construed as affecting priests: </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <P><EM>That said, soloing isn't meant to necessarily be equally efficient for everyone. Just as some classes have a lot of benefits they bring to a group, some classes have ablilites that work exceptionally well for soloing. But we've worked hard to ensure that everyone can solo if they chose to do so.  -Moorgard, Newbie Yard, September 13, 2005</EM></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Performed the same 90 day "equal" search for Lockeye (0 results), Silverfrost (0 results), Owlchick (0 results), Saavedra (1 result - not relevant to priest issues - regarded zone downtiering for soloers), Gallenite (1 result - dealt with qualifications for hiring at SOE).  I could find NO developers discussing priest "equality" in the past 3 months across any forum.</P> <P>So, the question remains:  Who's ramming "equality" down our throats constantly? </P> <P> </P>

[Skydude]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 PM</span>

[Supernova17]

Minowa, don't make me make fun of your tank gear! The reason we don't want more DPS is that in order to balance with this, Sony would have to lower our healing potency, which I do not want to see happen. <div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Minowa, don't make me make fun of your tank gear! <BR><BR>The reason <STRONG>we</STRONG> don't want more DPS is that in order to balance with this, Sony would have to lower our healing potency, which I do not want to see happen. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Im sorry please use the word I not we, because you certainly dont speak for all of us, or even many of us.</DIV>

[Alectra]

<DIV>I played eq1 for almost 5 years and what I wouldnt do for my clikcy rez sick hehe...Talk about soling  last night i did a solo trial in maj'dul  I was grouped with my tank he did a seperate one, and  he was on his second one while I was just finishing my frist trial omg I was like wtheck.I was happy I had my plate armor I could take the hits from 3 of them but my goodness to kill them took a bit I hate soloing cuz it does take me a bit to kill a mob ...when I am grouped with my guildies I wait to throw my little nukes for end of battel  to see if I can kill the mob when I do I tell my main tank who is my rl hubby see I can kill mob with my pothetic nukes lol he cracks up cuz even he knows our nukes sucks...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know about other classes about soloing I do know that 3 dps as templar does need to be improved  .I dont even waste my time casting the over time damage one it couldnt hurt a fly [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just surprised that alot of people who never played a templar in this game could comment on how good we got it...not here but on the forum in diffrent places thats what I dont understand nor think i ever will..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>alot of us are not bashing other classes we just want our class not to get shafted like it has ....I am sure alot of other classes needs improvement and some might not that is not my intention is to say rather another class is better then mine all classes are diffrent but some classes <temps realy needs to be looked into and it is very frustrating to me as I am sure it is to others but I cannot speak for other people nor try to just hopeing someone from soe can see what  derection temps are going in and to see if they can fix what needs to be fixed for us ></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alectra - 52 Templar </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Alectra on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:56 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alectra on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR>Well, we get "equality" rammed down our throats constantly so naturally people look at the question of what's not equal. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Who's ramming "equality" down our throats constantly?  In the past 30 days, Moorgard has used the word "equal" (or variations on it) exactly twice - both in regards to mitigation of fighters.  In the past 90 days, Moorgard's used the word (or variations) a grand total of 8 times - not once in regards to priests specifically, and only ONCE in any way that could be construed as affecting priests: </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <P><EM>That said, soloing isn't meant to necessarily be equally efficient for everyone. Just as some classes have a lot of benefits they bring to a group, some classes have ablilites that work exceptionally well for soloing. But we've worked hard to ensure that everyone can solo if they chose to do so.  -Moorgard, Newbie Yard, September 13, 2005</EM></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Performed the same 90 day "equal" search for Lockeye (0 results), Silverfrost (0 results), Owlchick (0 results), Saavedra (1 result - not relevant to priest issues - regarded zone downtiering for soloers), Gallenite (1 result - dealt with qualifications for hiring at SOE).  I could find NO developers discussing priest "equality" in the past 3 months across any forum.</P> <P>So, the question remains:  Who's ramming "equality" down our throats constantly? </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>YOU ... and your cohorts.  Until today you've rambled endlessly about equality in healing.  Now you've apparently finally figured out that equality in healing necessarily demands equality overall, and there isn't any.  So suddenly you don't want to talk about equality anymore.

[Skydude]

<DIV>LOL my tank gear, I do quite well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Invoker isn't what it used to be bro, my ring and boots keep me right there with ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they lowered our healing potency anymore than they have, all Templars would quit, there probably wouldn't be any crying on the boards at all, just a boatload of immediate cancelled accounts that will migrate to D&D or some other new or future release.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just haven't seen anyone asking for a 1k nuke or sow. They could extend the soothe or pacify timer and add just a bit more dps and I think they could quell this. Someone stated before they used to look at updates eagerly just to see there never were any for Templars, so while they make all other classes better they don't throw a bone to the Templars to gnaw on. I'll keep playing my toon, I enjoy being the main healer for the main raid group. My skill puts me there along with what Templars are capable of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm going to wait to see what a Warden and Fury are capable of now since the update is here. I think we should all do the same. BUT if for one second I believe they are capable of out healing a Templar then we have every right to demand more dps and utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW I'm having a ball playing my little lvl 30 wizzie, he can out dps any healer class already no matter lvl <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Marcus]

<P>'The reason we don't want more DPS is that in order to balance with this, Sony would have to lower our healing potency, which I do not want to see happen. '</P> <P> </P> <P>I don't think that is a concern, Supernova.  Healing has to be equal among all the priest classes.  At least, that is what I keep hearing on this forum....</P>

[Andu]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Gchang wrote:<blockquote> <hr> </blockquote>YOU ... and your cohorts.  Until today you've rambled endlessly about equality in healing.  Now you've apparently finally figured out that equality in healing necessarily demands equality overall, and there isn't any.  So suddenly you don't want to talk about equality anymore. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Quoted for emphasis. In the past I've defended you Kendricke because youve tried to keep a balanced view. However, you have seriously lost your objectivity recently and have got yourself backed into some sort of fanboi corner where you are trying to defend SOE against a cacophany of very upset Templars. Whether you like it or not you are NOT in the majority on this one. All the templars in my guild are up in arms, Im not the only one to quit. All evidence on these boards and within the circle I play indicates that the large majority of Templars are upset with the way things stand - not because the other classes heal equally - but because our DPS is so awful and we can do little but heal in a group. The bottom line is we are now a very boring class to play. I keep lurking these boards hoping for some sort of crumb. I miss playing with my friends but it was no fun after LU13. Everywhere I look though, Templars are getting kicked in the teeth, seemingly out of some desire to punish them for the position they were in pre-13. Meanwhile, you Nova and Radar seem to have taken it upon yourselves to adopt some sort of moral high ground, implying that the rest of us are just whiners and dont know what we are talking about. Well we DO know what we are talking about - the class can heal well and we can also kill yellow con mobs solo. We are not saying that isnt the case. It's just so slow its staggeringly, mind-numbingly BORING. Stop asking for numbers and data - we cant give it you because you cannot parse fun. Can you not understand that? </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Anduri on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MarcusHT wrote:<BR> <P>I don't think that is a concern, Supernova.  Healing has to be equal among all the priest classes.  At least, that is what I keep hearing on this forum....</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All priests have to be able to keep a group standing in typical situations, yes.  All priests are still reliant upon situational spells, however, which are going to alter effectiveness depending on the specific circumstances.</P> <P>Healing does not have to be "equal" among all priest classes.  However, there does need to be a minimum capability.  Up till this update (and perhaps even now), Wardens simply did not possess that capability at that minimum standard.  Do you deny this was the case?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Skydude]

<DIV>LOL I deny it, we have a very proficient warden in guild and she's always been able to keep a group up. I agree Wardens and Furies needed some loving, but you dismiss the fact that anyone here has a valid point besides you or anyone that doesn't agree with you. She can run faster than any horse sold and evac to boot. A Fury can traverse a group through the dreaded SE more easily than an illusionist and hit for 4x's the damage as well as heal a group. Reactives will keep Templars more proficient on normal MOBs only. You start raiding and then HoT will be more sought after, because it will always tic, reactives won't. We have two long heals with high power consumption, come on man wake up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see why you guys just don't get it. Healing is our utility, its obvious your damage control, but you need to speak with your SOE buddies, not try to quell the arguements here, because your just not going to change these people's minds with your feeble arguements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>LOL I deny it, we have a very proficient warden in guild and she's always been able to keep a group up. I agree Wardens and Furies needed some loving, but you dismiss the fact that anyone here has a valid point besides you or anyone that doesn't agree with you. She can run faster than any horse sold and evac to boot. A Fury can traverse a group through the dreaded SE more easily than an illusionist and hit for 4x's the damage as well as heal a group. Reactives will keep Templars more proficient on normal MOBs only. You start raiding and then HoT will be more sought after, because it will always tic, reactives won't. We have two long heals with high power consumption, come on man wake up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see why you guys just don't get it. Healing is our utility, its obvious your damage control, but you need to speak with your SOE buddies, not try to quell the arguements here, because your just not going to change these people's minds with your feeble arguements.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We have a proficient warden in our guild as well.   There's always exceptions to any generalization and I'm glad to hear you also had an exceptional warden within your guild who was able to excel despite the issues.  Even so, it was apparant that the Wardens as a class simply weren't meeting the minimum standards for basic healing. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skydude wrote:<div> She can run faster than any horse sold and evac to boot. <font color="#ff99ff">If she can, there's somethin' fishy going on.  SoW is in the bottom half of speed increases.  It used to stack with totems, but that's been changed.</font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font> Reactives will keep Templars more proficient on normal MOBs only. You start raiding and then HoT will be more sought after, because it will always tic, reactives won't. <div><font color="#ff99ff">Regens, reactives and wards are all designed to handle recurring, ongoing damage.  If you're not taking in damage, then direct heals are the way to go.   If you are taking damage, then reactives are clicking off at the same rate the damage comes in.</font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font> </div> We have two long heals with high power consumption, come on man wake up. <font color="#ff99ff">Not longer than mine.  My best direct heal does 44% of it's heal up front and takes 10 full seconds to finish.  That's not an HoT.   That's my direct, arch heal.</font> </div><div> </div> <div>Healing is our utility, its obvious your damage control, but you need to speak with your SOE buddies, not try to quell the arguements here, because your just not going to change these people's minds with your feeble arguements. <font color="#ff99ff">So, what do you call a 100% combat rez?  Or Sanctuary?  Soothe, mez, stun?  I empathize with templars dps woes and I very much agree it needs to be addressed.  But wardens envy your in-combat utitlity .</font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ff99ff"> </font></div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Skydude]

<DIV>Morie its called ToW and SoW brother with jboots, try it, makes her look like a Benny Hill show at the end credits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I stated Wardens needed loving,  Fury needed some also. I can be the single healer in a main raid group and keep em up so I'm not discounting our ability to heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mine are only points for counter balancing what took place today. SOE very much should have done what they did with the update, but they have no idea how to implement anything without angering the rest of the community. What [Removed for Content] couldn't see this coming? Then they stay silent without so much as a a vague address to a community that is PO'd because classes that can do 2x to 4x the damage are getting comparable heals. I don't begrudge you for the update, I'm happy for you and every class it helps, it is not my point. The update helps me as a guildleader to conduct more efficient raids and alternate personnel a little more dynamically. So it helped me immensely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is SOE isn't professional about this. If they don't look into the dps or give the Templars a bone, we're going to lose more friends to another game because they dropped the ball again. They ask for constructive posts to see where the community is at, yet they go about new content and changes with a pious attitude. Give the people a bone!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just as I don't think it was ever their intention to make Templar's offensive powerhouses, they really are living in a hole somewhere if they couldn't see this was going to anger a lot more people than it pleased. This should never have been introduced without some modification to Templar's dps or at the very least an address stating they are concerned about it and will be looking into it. That is all these people want. They feel left out in the cold and naked and have every right to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reactives are great heals, but they DO NOT always kick in. You have to cast them in that environment to see they're virtually useless against certain mobs. I can heal beyond that so no I'm not complaining, but there is no DEV here addressing the concerns on that either and its littered all over the forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>peace and grats on the update <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Aaf]

Well, I don't know about how it is in the High-end game, but I have done alot of trying to use this *supposed* utility in the 30's, and I'll tell you know, our lil mez line is usless. I have it adept 1, and I have *tried* to use it many many a time's in my group to try to help out, lock down somone for a bit, maybe help everyone out, what it's intended to do. I have got it to land on a mob once...once, in rougly 35-40 castings.   The one time I got it to land, was on a mob 5 levels below me.   Yes, I debuffed Divine Mit..too see if that would help at all first, Yes it's not app1, it's Adept 1, cause i seriously wanted to use it to try to help my group out. I don't know, you speak of it like it functions, it does not work in the 30's, it gets resisted 34/35 times at adept 1.  I see that as not part of our utility, but a waste of power.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aafek wrote:<BR>Well, I don't know about how it is in the High-end game, but I have done alot of trying to use this *supposed* utility in the 30's, and I'll tell you know, our lil mez line is usless.<BR><BR>I have it adept 1, and I have *tried* to use it many many a time's in my group to try to help out, lock down somone for a bit, maybe help everyone out, what it's intended to do.<BR><BR>I have got it to land on a mob once...once, in rougly 35-40 castings.   The one time I got it to land, was on a mob 5 levels below me.  <BR><BR>Yes, I debuffed Divine Mit..too see if that would help at all first, Yes it's not app1, it's Adept 1, cause i seriously wanted to use it to try to help my group out.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I don't know, you speak of it like it functions, it does not work in the 30's, it gets resisted 34/35 times at adept 1.  I see that as not part of our utility, but a waste of power.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What is your current subjugation skill level?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skydude wrote:<div></div> <div>Morie its called ToW and SoW brother with jboots, try it, makes her look like a Benny Hill show at the end credits. <font color="#ff99ff">The totems and SoW don't stack any more.   And jboots + SoW still don't get you to run as fast as many of the horses out there (certainly not the carpets).</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I stated Wardens needed loving,  Fury needed some also. I can be the single healer in a main raid group and keep em up so I'm not discounting our ability to heal. <font color="#ff99ff">I appreciate that.  And I understand that templars need help too.  </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Mine are only points for counter balancing what took place today. SOE very much should have done what they did with the update, but they have no idea how to implement anything without angering the rest of the community. What [Removed for Content] couldn't see this coming? Then they stay silent without so much as a a vague address to a community that is PO'd because classes that can do 2x to 4x the damage are getting comparable heals. I don't begrudge you for the update, I'm happy for you and every class it helps, it is not my point. The update helps me as a guildleader to conduct more efficient raids and alternate personnel a little more dynamically. So it helped me immensely.</div> <div> </div> <div>My point is SOE isn't professional about this. If they don't look into the dps or give the Templars a bone, we're going to lose more friends to another game because they dropped the ball again. They ask for constructive posts to see where the community is at, yet they go about new content and changes with a pious attitude. Give the people a bone!</div> <div> </div> <div>Just as I don't think it was ever their intention to make Templar's offensive powerhouses, they really are living in a hole somewhere if they couldn't see this was going to anger a lot more people than it pleased. This should never have been introduced without some modification to Templar's dps or at the very least an address stating they are concerned about it and will be looking into it. That is all these people want. They feel left out in the cold and naked and have every right to. <font color="#ff99ff">I can totally appreciate the frustration you feel regarding the lack of communication.  It has been my biggest complaint since the combat update.   As far as waiting for this to go in at a time when other classes were thrown a bone as well, it's really a trade-off.  Continue to anger one community by putting it off, or angering another by not seeming to care about there concerns.   If it had been any other issue than the base function of the class -- healing -- I would agree that waiting would have been the right approach.  </font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font></div> <div> </div> <div>Reactives are great heals, but they DO NOT always kick in. You have to cast them in that environment to see they're virtually useless against certain mobs. I can heal beyond that so no I'm not complaining, but there is no DEV here addressing the concerns on that either and its littered all over the forums. <font color="#ff99ff">I will look.  If there are mobs that can damage you without your reactives going off, then I'd certainly like to know about that.  </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>peace and grats on the update <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <font color="#ff99ff">Thanks.  Here's to hoping they do something for your dps!</font><font color="#ff99ff"> </font></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Lishara]

<P>Lol Morie, I am the warden in question and TOW + SOW + Jboots do too still stack.  </P> <P>I never did understand all the whining in the warden community (you can see my posts in the warden forums).  We did need *some* help with dealing with spike damage, and there are a couple of other small things I was unhappy about.  But overall I have never had a problem keeping groups alive if I'm the only healer.  If the tank takes in a large piece of burst damage up front it can take me a little bit longer to get him back to the green while I bring up all the HoTs but once they're up then he usually stays in the green.  Wardens have to play things differently and be proactive about healing.  Keep up the two main regens on the tank at all times and throw the group heals + direct heal when things get sticky.  With the recent change to our cast times, I thought we were doing very well.  Duststorm keeps the mobs from hitting the tanks as often so the tank takes less damage (and trust me you will notice a big diff if you cast it vs not casting it if you're taking on triple ups above your level).  Damage shield and spores adds more utility.  I think too many wardens got way too spoiled and used to that huge direct heal we used to have before the combat upgrade.  And you have to admit it *was* way overpowered when my level 28 direct heal was healing for more than other healers' 40+ heals (Nature's Caress at Ad 3 I believe).</P> <P>Errr hmmm, didn't really mean to take over a templar thread with all the warden talk.  I still believe templars will be the best healers in the game.  And I still think that for raids you want ALL types of healers there.  Any raid leader who takes along only one type of healer is really missing the point.</P>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Things such as this are being looked into. I can understand your concern here and will keep an eye on the situation.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Things such as this are being looked into. I can understand your concern here and will keep an eye on the situation.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>HAHAHA</P> <P>Templars have been stating these things for months, though I will grant you are the first developer to step foot in the templar forums ever I think.</P> <P>Unfortunatly for me too little too late, I cancelled my account due to a lack of developer response to Templar (specifficaly) and Healer issues in general. The lack of willingness or ability for those in your manaagement to at least be civil and discuss issues that we bring up (regardless of which way you guys eventually decide) is probably one of the largest reasons people quit.</P> <P>I just wish yiou guys did those great surveys before people decided to quit. You might have a larger player base now.</P> <P>I dont even know why I bother posting this. It will be deleted in a few hours anyways.</P> <P>Xlrate 54 Templar Everfrost Retired.</P>

[Kayle]

<DIV>The concern a month ago when the feeling was that SOE would probably "balance" healing, was the fear that unless Templars were compensated in some way, the other priest classes would be in higher demand.  Personally, I wondered what they would do with the mobs themselves if so much healing power was brought into play and I worried about that the most.  Six priest classes all healing the same and I had to laugh at the cartoon Rezzor offered that said it all by portraying a mob hitting for 5k.  The sheer comical truth of what has happened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The guards at the forum doors bellowed: "Go back in your houses!  All is well!".. you name it -- it was a bonafide concern and still is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The truth of the matter is, that fear became a reality and if the people who spouted shut up and go away had taken their own advice, maybe the devs would have seen what the term "balance" would do to the game.  We said what we said back then for the GOOD of the game and for no other reason.  Many didn't understand that and flat out refused to understand that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those very same guards are still bellowing nothing is wrong, but if you look at the numbers in the zones, at least on my server, it's dwindling and I'm sure it's not just Templars.  I haven't seen an Antonica 2 or Thundering Steppes 2 choice in some time.  Last night I meandered into Permafrost just to take a quiet look at the Vision of Vox for the last time, and believe me, it was quiet.  No one in the entire zone but me.  I call that SAD when it used to be a contested mob we couldn't get to fast enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The guild I'm in has lost numerous key players.  The first to go were yes, Templars, but I'm sure those that followed suit afterward, who were not Templars felt that without them, why continue?  Our priest class numbers for Templars outweighed any other priest class for obvious reasons, but we don't have enough other priest classes to replace them -- and no one wants to reroll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So something is wrong, but realize that it's a culmination of things, not just the Templar.  Even if they adjusted Templars to be more appealing tomorrow, it would never solve the state of the game right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could probably write a novel on what needs to be fixed and how to turn it around, but I can't and you know why?  Because I can't get a thought out on these forums without being shot down, deleted or derailed by the "nothing is wrong" crowd.  Many of those from old school MMOG's with far more talent then I have also posted concerns.  Sadly, I see the same exact response and disrespect towards them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But go out and see for yourselves.  Check your brokers and see how much you've sold today as opposed to 2 months ago.  Check your zones and tell me how long you wait for a group.  Check your journals and see how much you think you will get done that hasn't gotten done in awhile.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you still come back here and feel nothing is wrong, then I'm dreaming and you're right and you win the 6000 post award for whatever it's worth to you.  But it's not worth it to me and I refuse to argue any longer with people who live to just argue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this game is to survive, it will be by people who care about it because they cared about the time they invested to play it.  It will not survive by those who invest the majority of their time posting on these forums and not playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The state of the game as a whole entity needs to be addressed and no simple solution to one class is going to fix anything and that's my 60 levels of experience worth on the subject.</DIV>

[Raijinn]

<P><SPAN style="COLOR: #ff9966">Kaylena</SPAN>,</P> <P>I thank you for the input and will continue to check out the Templar forums.</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <DIV>Those very same guards are still bellowing nothing is wrong, but if you look at the numbers in the zones, at least on my server, it's dwindling and I'm sure it's not just Templars.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm not sure who's saying "nothing is wrong", but it's not me.  What I have been saying is "where's the facts to back the fears"?  I deal in facts, not in emotional reactions.  I realize and appreciate that many Templars are scared, concerned, and even angry right now.  That doesn't mean I'm going to join in the chorus of hysteria and add to the chaos.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been and shall continue to attempt to be a foil to those who shout for the sake of shouting, and who naysay without evidence.  I deal in facts.  If someone says our DPS is horrible, then I want to see that.  If someone states we can't solo greens, I'm going to test that.  If someone claims we're unable to heal better than other priests, I'm going to parse it out and compare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one's saying "nothing is wrong" - certainly not I.  What has been said is "the sky is not falling".  There's a very important difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MrHell]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote:<div>Things such as this are being looked into. I can understand your concern here and will keep an eye on the situation.</div><hr></blockquote>Please don't forget about Inquisitors either. We are the mostly forgotten Cleric subclass. I am mostly happy with my class but feel similarly to alot of the Templars round, that basically we are being left behind,. Thanks! - D</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div><div>Based on what evidence?  How many times has Ethec posted in this forum?  How many times has Ethec ever posted on the official forums?  Yet, there he was at the second Community Summit, representing a Templar's opinion. </div> <div> </div> <>Just raising a stink isn't enough to gain SOE's attention.  Raising valid points and issues in a constructive manner will gain far more productive attention than just yelling for the sake of yelling. <> <hr></blockquote>Well if SoE listened, this Ethec is a 'all is good with templars' person.</span><div></div>

[Kiara-]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Balancing is a process.  It doesn't happen overnight.  Right now, they're balancing healing power as best they can.  Once that is in line, they'll work on the other aspects.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>SoE is trying to make a good game that will stand the test of time.  They won't accomplish that by leaving people out in the cold.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Have a little faith and a little patience.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>We were vastly overpowered before.  Now we're not, but we're not completely broken either.  The things that need fixing will get fixed.  But it takes time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>By all means, voice your concerns, but don't ask for things that are just outrageous.  Templars aren't meant to be superior healing machines and nothing else.  Be reasonable, and try to help make our class better.  This will be accomplished through logical and rational discourse.  Not emotion fed rants and attacks.  They aren't out to get us, it isn't a conspiracy, you do not need your tinfoil hats.</FONT></DIV>

[Marcus]

Kendricke, I am afraid you did not understand my point.  I didn't say anything about the changes for wardens.  Personally, I'm happy for them.  My point was that a boost in Templar DPS would not necessarily result in a reduction in our healing powers, as Supernova seems to fear....   especially not if Sony is trying to keep the healing powers balanced across all the priest classes, which has seemed to be a common theme lately.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MarcusHT wrote:<BR> Kendricke, I am afraid you did not understand my point.  I didn't say anything about the changes for wardens.  Personally, I'm happy for them.  My point was that a boost in Templar DPS would not necessarily result in a reduction in our healing powers, as Supernova seems to fear....   especially not if Sony is trying to keep the healing powers balanced across all the priest classes, which has seemed to be a common theme lately.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh, on that we agree.  I believe there's still significant room to increase Templar DPS without overpowering or tipping the balance of the system.  A multiple concentration spell designed around very situational use could be just the thing.  Whether that's a self-only "holy aura" style damage shield or a summoned hammer "pet" (similar to the Everquest Cleric pet), there are several good suggestions floating around the forums these days regarding possible fixes to that issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously in a group situation, our DPS arguments go out the window, but soloing is another matter.  I've started a data collection thread to try to bring some specific attention to the issue from a factual, constructive point of view (complaint threads are already a dime a dozen, it seems - thought I'd try a different approach).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Skydude]

<DIV>I personally would like to thank Raijinn for addressing the community and stating this will be looked into. It isn't so much fear or doomsday predictions that had me concerned. It was the fact that I've searched all the forums and couldn't find anything from any developers hinting that Templars are also being looked at. Now I do feel they are probably doing just that before any of this outrage came to the forums, but how did we know for sure until this post?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Being looked into" is and was my only request and now I'm a Templar that is appeased. I don't believe in quick fixes and I think an analytical and well thought out strategy to bring the classes in-line with being desirable in most given situations is critical to game survival.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have a great day everyone, I'm going on the server to kick some tail.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Alectra]

I agree with Skydude it is nice to know someone is looking into this for all of us Thank you Raijinn.It just felt me to that templar got  put on the back burner of things and no one was interested in how we all felt about our class.Some maynot think there is anything wrong with our class but untill they play our class they shouldnt flame us for what we are trying to see if this situation with temps can be adressed for us.

[Nari]

Have you guys noticed any effect with the recent change to the ^^^ npcs? I have to admit that I got sucked into all of the Halloween festivities yesterday and didn't get to check it out.  If anyone who is a bit more focused has seen what kind of effect the reduction in hitpoints may have had for getting rid of them more quickly, I would be interested to hear. Sometimes, we can solo ^^^ creatures.  I was just wondering if it has gotten any easier.  When I happened to be doing Cauldron Hollow access about 10 days ago, the green ^^^ ghost that spawns on you in that little pass between Nek forest and Nek docks was so irritating.  He could do OK damage, but I didn't do that much to him.  After a few minutes, it became obvious to me that I was going to run out of power and he would be left with about a third of his HP. I showed him though.  I got that two-timing elven conjurer to help me get rid of him.  That went pretty quick.  I guess the guy did hit pretty hard because he made short work of the pet. I doubt that the ^^^ guys will have a reduction in hitpoints that would have made a difference in that encounter for me, but it would be nice to be able to give a bully like that what for once in a while. <div></div>

[Fivel]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 PM</span>

[Jida]

<P>I was SOOO gonna write this post. Thank you for reading and posting on the Templar boards Raijinn.</P> <P>This is all i needed.. I'll expect some hint of whats going on in a month or so :smileywink:</P> <P>Elder</P> <P> </P> <P>PS. For the love of god, no one is going to respond to personal attacks.. quit wasting your time.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Skydude wrote:<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I personally would like to thank Raijinn for addressing the community and stating this will be looked into. It isn't so much fear or doomsday predictions that had me concerned. It was the fact that I've searched all the forums and couldn't find anything from any developers hinting that Templars are also being looked at. Now I do feel they are probably doing just that before any of this outrage came to the forums, but how did we know for sure until this post?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Being looked into" is and was my only request and now I'm a Templar that is appeased. I don't believe in quick fixes and I think an analytical and well thought out strategy to bring the classes in-line with being desirable in most given situations is critical to game survival.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have a great day everyone, I'm going on the server to kick some tail.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR>Stop asking for numbers and data - we cant give it you because you cannot parse fun. Can you not understand that?</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Of course I understand that.  I've stated it several times. </P> <P> </P> <P>Here's an example:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=12129&query.id=0#M12129" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=12129&query.id=0#M12129</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I know many Templars who could coast by prior to Update 13.  While their 3 person group engaged a red named target, they could hit two buttons on their keyboards, take the time to go to the kitchen and back, knowing full well that the chances of anything really bad happening were fairly low based on buff stacking and overpowered reactives.  To be honest, a lot of grinds I was in consisted of a good movie and autofollow.  I'd keep looking over at the screen and hitting Crucial Intercession and Greater Intercession from time to time.  How <EM>skillful</EM>!</P> <P>Then the Revamp occured and I took a week to relearn my class.  I noted that Guardians were no longer invicible, and I could no longer just "phone it in".  I saw many posts from Templars frustrated they could no longer stack 3-4 spells atop one another, and that they couldn't just spam cycle through 3-4 direct heals in the meantime.  Suddenly they had to work for it...the class had become different.  To many, this screamed "broken"...but to others, it said "challenge...finally".</P> <P>It's a difference of perspective.</P> <P>The fact is that some Templars feel the changes were bad and others find them more positive.  The fact is that some spell changes aren't popular with some Templars and they are with others.  The fact is that some Templars claim they cannot keep their groups standing in the same way and yet other Templars are stating differently.</P> <P>It's all subjective.  Half-full or half-empty thinking.  Who's right?  Everyone.  Everyone's absolutely correct.  If you hate the changes, then you're right.  If you love the changes, then you're also right.  If you're somewhere in the middle, then you're also right.  Everyone's right on this because it's a subjective issue.  My "right" is only good for me.  That statement is also true for every other person reading this right now.</P> <P>That's why I don't bother to argue statements of "like", "dislike", "hate", "love", "sucks", "rules" all that much.  It's a wasted effort to try to convince someone that what they feel is incorrect.  Instead, I try to stick to the facts.  Developers don't have much to go on if the only statements they get are extremist, anyway.  It's simply not constructive to say "healing a group now is impossible" because as sure as the sun shines, another Templar will be there with examples to prove that it IS possible. </P> <P>So, deal in facts.  Deal in specifics.  You want a change, that's my advice for the best way to handle it.  Then again, what do I know.  By all means, don't let my attempt at positive constructive data gathering get in the way of a good slugfest.  By all means, there's mudslinging to get back to - why worry about those pesky facts.  <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Here's another example:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=15969&query.id=0#M15969" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=15969&query.id=0#M15969</A></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Pratoreate's WIS means a lot more now than it did prior to the revamp...as does STR.  Put this on a Paladin and start romping through spell casters.  Our Redoubt line no longer has any mitigation bonuses, but neither does jewelry.  The health and attack bonus are hardly incidental, and I tend to keep at least two copies up at all times.  Glory of Combat fires a lot more than you think, and parses I'm running are showing dramatic differences in groups where I don't cast it at all.  I can also now keep multiple copies of the spell up, which is a bonus over the old way. </P> <P>There's more spells, but I don't have hard numbers on them from where I'm sitting, only to say that I've personally noted a difference. </P> <P>I can't argue whether the game "feels" more or less fun for you individually.  However, I can certainly post facts and examples to show differing experiences from the ones you are encountering.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yet, another example:  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=12620" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=12620</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV>What follows is merely one Templar's views...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in the original beta for several months, through various phases.  I remember the original uproar regarding the loss of low level wards and regenerations for clerics.  I remember seeing the arguments filled with rhetoric and hyperbole claiming that no one would ever want to play a priest now because it's impossible to keep a group healed without all three forms of specialized healing.  I remember seeing the outrage by some clerics that no one would ever be able to keep a group standing now.  I remember the attempts at petitions to force SOE's hand. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like a few others here, I remember seeing some posts made regarding the fact that new clerics would never be aware of what was lost and would simply be content with what they had.  They wouldn't argue about "the good ole days" and they'd simply be content with what they have to offer as they see it.  As I recall, this was what I actually argued myself...and I was fairly reviled for it.  Hateful PM's were sent to me during the Beta calling me all manner of names and telling me that I had no idea what I was talking about.  Yet, here we are, over a year later, and I haven't seen a single post decrying our lack of wards and regenerations in months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, this brings us to today.  The revamp was completed in September, nearly seven months since SOE first announced it was working on any revamp at all (shortly after Live Update 5?  6?  ...I'll have to look that up at some point, I'm sure).  SOE's been working on the revamp since February, at least, when they first mentioned that they were working on the priest class revamp.  That's right, the revamp started with us.  Shaman wards weren't mitigating correctly, neither wards nor reactives were producing the correct amount of hate, and Templars were able to heal groups for FAR more than other classes could.  It was a broken situation, and SOE said as much...in February.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shortly thereafter, they began working on the full revamp when they announced that they realized the problems they were seeing were far more reaching.  Certain classes were all but invincible in certain situations.  Some classes were soloing Red Epic x2's.  Epic x4 raids were being consumed by single groups.  So they began working on the revamp.  Even at the first Community Summit in June, we discussed the progress they'd made so far and were able to report on what we'd been made aware up to that point.  Not too long after, the new system was in place on the Desert of Flames beta server...and very soon thereafter it also appeared on the Test server.  For months, the system was tested, tweaked, and tested some more.  Changes were brought over in phases.  I know this because I was on both servers and gave feedback from various levels as a Templar and Paladin.  I think I was the first player to post a "Templars post here for feedback" thread in the beta.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We knew the changes were going to be dramatically received by many within the playerbase.  We especially knew that classes which were traditionally "Kings of the Hill" would be the one's which likely gave the largest uproar.  Sure enough, prior to the revamp, Guardians, Templars, and Warlocks were THE best fighters, priests, and mages.  After the revamp, the distinction seemed much, much less pronounced.  Long held monopolies had been broken.  Skill meant more than class.  Encounters were a challenge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, clerics can't stack 3-4 reactives atop one another anymore, and toss in one of 3-4 direct heals to fill the gaps, should they desire.  Yes, wards are more powerful.  Yes, druids can now keep up with some spikes in damage.  We're not the kings of the hill anymore.  We're not the gods of healing.  We're still able to heal more effectively than other classes, and I'm still seeing Templars in high demand for grouping, for we aren't the only healers being sought anymore.  That paradigm has shifted. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course the grass is going to appear greener on the other side to many who chose the class based only on the old system.  In that system we were the <EM><STRONG>only</STRONG> </EM>"real" healer worth choosing in most situations.  You didn't even need to be skilled to keep a group alive - that was merely a bonus.  An average or mediocre player in an old Templar in mediocre gear was still typically better than a good player as a Fury or Mystic in good gear.  It didn't matter about ability, DPS, or anything else then...because Templars were SO much better that defenciencies in player skill were easily covered up by the overwhelming strengths of our class pre-revamp.  An average grouping could easily consist of a good movie and autofollow since Guardians and even Paladins were likewise overpowered in many respects, and often able to tank so well with the correct mixture of stats and buffs that healing was all but an afterthought in many situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is most obviously not the case today, wherein a Templar which doesn't pay attention now, soon finds him or herself reviving at the nearest camp.  We have to <EM>think now.  </EM>We can't just "phone it in" anymore.  Switching targets and utilizing spells is essential now.  Before the revamp, we basically only needed two or three tools.  Now, we require much more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will new Templars be aware of the differences?  Of course not.  Just as most Templars today will never know what it was like to cast wards and regenerations prior to every pull...Templars just starting out won't know what it was like to just sit back and rock between 5-6 heal buttons over and over.  They'll learn to keep groups alive in ways we never had to know.  I daresay they'll be better players because of it.  For us, the challenge has increased but for this new generation of Templars, they'll simply find it par for the course.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's with this in mind that I smile when I see someone threatening to play as a druid or shaman now.  Because, of course, they're starting anew and will not know the complaints that many druids and shaman are currently in an uproar about on their own forums.  Because these old Templars are the new generation of druids and shaman, and for them, the current system is simply par for the course.  I daresay they'll even be better druids and shaman because of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's also possible that many of these players truly would have chosen a different healing class in the first place had this been the original system.  However, because of the WIDE descrepencies between the incredible ease by which Templars could keep groups standing and the challenge which faced all other priests previously, I would daresay many avoided any healing class except the one perceived to be "THE best".  Even though playstyle and preference would likely have chosen elsewhere had the choice been less obvious and one-sided, the very nature of the beast brought in many players who were never truly looking to be Templars...but who came here anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, this is all just one Templar's opinion.  What does one opinion matter these days?  <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There's reasons I try to stick to facts and not merely perceptions or hearsay.   It's because it's easy to say that someone doesn't understand something when the fact may be that they very well do and have actually stated as much.  Just because you may not like what I say doesn't mean I'm wrong to say it, or even that what I'm saying is wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Repeating these lengthy walks down memory lane (your interpretation, btw) is not the slightest indication that you understand what he was saying.  There is nothing in your posts which indicates that you have any understanding of the intangibles that many posters talk about.  And you repeatedly say you don't want to deal with perceptions and such. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, many aspects of games are intangible. For most of us it's not all numbers. The numbers on the heals don't mean diddly squat compared to what it FEELS like to use this healing system hour in hour out. In the last analysis the intangibles will sell the game a lot more than the numbers.  You certainly don't have to deal with intangibles, but somebody sure better deal with them because that's the area where the templar class - and the game, for that matter - is most lacking.  You can parse and post numbers up the ying yang and that won't alter the fact that for a lot of people the templar class just doesn't FEEL right.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Repeating these lengthy walks down memory lane (your interpretation, btw) is not the slightest indication that you understand what he was saying.  There is nothing in your posts which indicates that you have any understanding of the intangibles that many posters talk about.  And you repeatedly say you don't want to deal with perceptions and such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, many aspects of games are intangible. For most of us it's not all numbers. The numbers on the heals don't mean diddly squat compared to what it FEELS like to use this healing system hour in hour out. In the last analysis the intangibles will sell the game a lot more than the numbers.  You certainly don't have to deal with intangibles, but somebody sure better deal with them because that's the area where the templar class - and the game, for that matter - is most lacking.  You can parse and post numbers up the ying yang and that won't alter the fact that for a lot of people the templar class just doesn't FEEL right.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I've never said "I don't want to deal with perceptions and such".  I've said I can't argue anyone's personal subjective opinion.  I've said that no matter what your opinion is, you're right.  If you like the changes, then you're right.  If you hate the changes, you're right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, for a moment, try to put yourself in a position where you have to manage projects and deal with client concerns.  You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the problem is, can you?  You can't quantify a tracker item for your engineers and designers to look at if they don't know exactly what it is they are supposed to fix, can you?  Can your engineers code in a new "feeling"?  Can your designers create a new "feel"?  If so, how do you write out that tracker item?  How do you submit that proposal? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you just put down "it don't feel right" on a piece of paper and send it on over to coding?  Do you say "make it more fun" and fire it off to the designers?  What is it you're actually asking for?  Your designers won't know this if you don't tell them.  Your coders can't make changes if they don't know exactly what it is they're changing, can they?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes, there's nothing wrong per se with simply announcing anger, frustration, or concerns.  However, without some quantifiable facts to support the opinion, you're not actually asking for anything substantial; you're simply venting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anduri wrote: <div></div><span>Stop asking for numbers and data - we cant give it you because you cannot parse fun. Can you not understand that?</span> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Of course I understand that.  I've stated it several times. </p> <p> Blah Blah Blah ... </p> <hr></blockquote> You clearly DONT understand it, because apart from some vague references in the second paragraph, the other diatribe has nothing to do with what I and others are trying to say. You make a lot of references to player skill, intimating that we are not having fun because we cannot do what we could do before LU13. Well, no, it isn't that - I had no trouble keeping groups alive and it was clear we were still excellent healers. It isn't about solo ability (as opposed to the time it takes) as I can easily solo yellow ^ mobs and frankly wouldn't expect to be able to kill anything harder without better gear. I am happy with our "power", for want of a better word, both in grouping and soloing. You make lots of references to the abilities we had in the past. You seem to infer that I don't find it fun anymore because I can no longer chuck a couple of heals on the tank and go back to reading my book. No, no, no. It is not about that either, the increased level of challenge should in theory be a good thing - and if it had been implemented right it would have been. I welcome the increase in challenge. It has nothing to do with the mantra that all healers should heal equally. I've understood that from day one and have no quibbles with druids getting some much needed attention. It is not grass is greener syndrome: I think when a lot of templars quote what druids can do, they do so out of an attempt to illustrate that their requests are justified and not self-centred. This may or may not be successful of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I and others have stated before the reasons why our class has become so dull. It is from a sense of not wishing to constantly repeat myself (something you might want to consider <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) that I didnt say anything more in my last post  but will do so again if that is your wish: a) The interupts are ridiculous. Plate armour is a curse now that we have zero avoidance. Combined with the loss of parry, the sheer tedium of constantly fighting against interupts becomes frustrating. b) We have little in the way of strategic decision-making when it comes to our healing role. Our options are so limited. With hindsight, the ability to cast our cleric arch heal and BoV masked this before as it gave us additional options. The merging of the recast timers, whilst logical, has exposed the small pool of heals available to us. Small heal, Big heal, Reactive, Special Reactive and the resolve line in emergencies. It isn't rocket science to pick your way through those and requires little ability, skill or even thought to balance in a fight. c) The cast times and recast times on most spells are too long. I understand the logic, we get the big whammy heals so our gaps between them have to be longer. But what exactly are we supposed to be doing in those gaps? It is all too easy to be in the position where all of your standard heals are recharging and you literally have the choice of expending a special, for want of something to do, or sitting there for seconds twiddling your thumbs. I know its only seconds but it shatters the immersion you have in the encounter when every so often you come screeching to a halt. d) Solo/duo DPS .. enough said already. Soloing is an integral part of the game even for clerics. Take all the quests on the beach of SS - the beetle hurding, mummy killing type. To put a group together to do them now is next to impossible, after all every other class are just out there doing them in half the time it takes us. Anyway, like I said, all this has been raised before. Not to mention the dubious involuntary healer line that never seems to proc quite right, the stun with the stupid cast/recast time, the "sign of weakness" line that noone knows you have cast and is just broken within seconds by an AoE. By the way, have you ever asked your group to not cast AoE's so you can mezz. After they stop rolling around laughing, most groups will tell you to shut up and heal. Bottom line, we heal great, we solo great (but ohhh soooo slllowwwlllyy) .... it's just boring as hell. </span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P><EM>Well, I think our ability to produce coin is ridiculous, so I demand that the developers bring the fun back by providing all Templars with more coin.  No, I have no facts or examples to back my claim, but because I've said this it must be true.  Every Templar I've spoken with says we need more coin.  Therefore, the only way to make the Templar class more fun is to give us all more coin.</EM></P> <P>Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?</P> <DIV><EM>"The interupts are ridiculous. Plate armour is a curse now that we have zero avoidance. Combined with the loss of parry, the sheer tedium of constantly fighting against interupts becomes frustrating."  - Anduri</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Here I am fighting a white con level 51 spider last night:</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><BR>(1129787695)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:55 2005] YOU try to smite a black spider with Mark of Kings, but a black spider resists.<BR>(1129787695)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:55 2005] a black spider tries to pierce YOU, but misses.<BR>(1129787697)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:57 2005] You strike A black spider with a corruptive symbol!<BR>(1129787697)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:57 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 31 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787697)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:57 2005] A black spider is struck with a corruptive symbol!<BR>(1129787697)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:57 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 57 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787697)[Thu Oct 20 00:54:57 2005] YOUR Sanguine Feedback hits a black spider for 79 points of heat damage.<BR>(1129787700)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:00 2005] a black spider tries to pierce YOU, but misses.<BR>(1129787700)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:00 2005] You invoke the Mark of Kings on your foe.<BR>(1129787700)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:00 2005] A black spider is stricken with the Mark of Kings.<BR>(1129787701)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:01 2005] You trigger a starter chain.<BR>(1129787701)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:01 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787702)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:02 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 85 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787705)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:05 2005] a black spider's Concussion hits YOU for 60 points of crushing damage.<BR>(1129787705)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:05 2005] Your brain is knocked around a bit.<BR>(1129787705)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:05 2005] You regain your wits.<BR>(1129787705)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:05 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787706)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:06 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 59 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787707)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:07 2005] You blast A black spider with a divine strike!<BR>(1129787707)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:07 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 125 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787707)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:07 2005] A black spider writhes as the divine energy tears at It!<BR>(1129787709)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:09 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 96 points of piercing damage.<BR><STRONG>(1129787709)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:09 2005] Your spell has been interrupted!<BR></STRONG>(1129787709)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:09 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787711)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:11 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 61 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787711)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:11 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 68 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787711)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:11 2005] You pray for injurious divine aid.<BR>(1129787711)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:11 2005] YOUR Condemning Smite hits a black spider for 201 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787711)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:11 2005] A black spider receives a deific injury!<BR>(1129787711)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:11 2005] You triggered Inspiring Piety.<BR>(1129787713)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:13 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] You strike A black spider with a divine torrent!<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] YOUR Divine Strike hits a black spider for 205 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] A black spider staggers as a divine torrent tears through Its mind!<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] You complete Inspiring Piety.<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] YOUR Inspiring Piety hits a black spider for 133 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] A black spider is imbued with divine wrath.<BR>(1129787714)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:14 2005] You are imbued with divine wrath.<BR>(1129787715)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:15 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 61 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787716)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:16 2005] You trigger a starter chain.<BR>(1129787716)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:16 2005] a black spider's Barrage hits YOU for 64 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787717)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:17 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 101 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787717)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:17 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787719)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:19 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 71 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787719)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:19 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 91 points of piercing damage.<BR><STRONG>(1129787719)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:19 2005] Your spell has been interrupted!</STRONG><BR>(1129787722)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:22 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787722)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:22 2005] The corruptive symbol fades from A black spider.<BR>(1129787722)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:22 2005] a black spider tries to pierce YOU, but misses.<BR>(1129787723)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:23 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 61 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787723)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:23 2005] You pray for injurious divine aid.<BR>(1129787723)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:23 2005] YOUR Condemning Smite hits a black spider for 192 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787723)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:23 2005] A black spider receives a deific injury!<BR>(1129787723)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:23 2005] You triggered Divine Judgment.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] You strike A black spider with a divine torrent!<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] YOUR Divine Strike hits a black spider for 226 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] A black spider staggers as a divine torrent tears through Its mind!<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] You complete Divine Judgment.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] YOUR Divine Judgment hits a black spider for 149 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] A black spider is struck with great force.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] a black spider's Concussion hits YOU for 54 points of crushing damage.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] Your brain is knocked around a bit.<BR>(1129787726)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:26 2005] You regain your wits.<BR>(1129787727)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:27 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 46 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787727)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:27 2005] YOUR Sanguine Feedback hits a black spider for 79 points of heat damage.<BR>(1129787729)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:29 2005] You blast A black spider with a divine strike!<BR>(1129787729)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:29 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 125 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787729)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:29 2005] A black spider writhes as the divine energy tears at It!<BR>(1129787730)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:30 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 77 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787731)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:31 2005] You strike A black spider with a corruptive symbol!<BR>(1129787731)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:31 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787731)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:31 2005] A black spider is struck with a corruptive symbol!<BR>(1129787732)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:32 2005] You trigger a starter chain.<BR>(1129787732)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:32 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 76 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787733)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:33 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 73 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787735)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:35 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 101 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787735)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:35 2005] You pray for injurious divine aid.<BR>(1129787735)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:35 2005] YOUR Condemning Smite hits a black spider for 208 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787735)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:35 2005] A black spider receives a deific injury!<BR>(1129787735)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:35 2005] You triggered Divine Judgment.<BR>(1129787735)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:35 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787737)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:37 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 74 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787737)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:37 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 81 points of piercing damage.<BR>(112978773<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Oct 20 00:55:38 2005] You strike A black spider with a divine torrent!<BR>(112978773<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Oct 20 00:55:38 2005] YOUR Divine Strike hits a black spider for 214 points of divine damage.<BR>(112978773<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Oct 20 00:55:38 2005] A black spider staggers as a divine torrent tears through Its mind!<BR>(112978773<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Oct 20 00:55:38 2005] You complete Divine Judgment.<BR>(112978773<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Oct 20 00:55:38 2005] YOUR Divine Judgment hits a black spider for 154 points of divine damage.<BR>(112978773<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Oct 20 00:55:38 2005] A black spider is struck with great force.<BR>(1129787740)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:40 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787740)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:40 2005] a black spider's Mangle hits YOU for 72 points of slashing damage.<BR>(1129787740)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:40 2005] One of your limbs becomes mangled.<BR>(1129787741)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:41 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 71 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787741)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:41 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 74 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787742)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:42 2005] You trigger a starter chain.<BR>(1129787743)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:43 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787744)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:44 2005] a black spider hits YOU for 109 points of piercing damage.<BR>(1129787745)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:45 2005] YOUR Warring Faith hits a black spider for 69 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787745)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:45 2005] You pray for injurious divine aid.<BR>(1129787745)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:45 2005] YOUR Condemning Smite hits a black spider for 204 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787745)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:45 2005] A black spider receives a deific injury!<BR>(1129787745)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:45 2005] You triggered Inspiring Piety.<BR>(1129787747)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:47 2005] YOUR Symbol of Corruption hits a black spider for 33 points of divine damage.<BR>(1129787747)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:47 2005] Your limb straightens itself.<BR>(1129787747)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:47 2005] A black spider's Mark of Kings fades.<BR>(1129787747)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:47 2005] The corruptive symbol fades from A black spider.<BR>(1129787747)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:47 2005] You have killed a black spider.<BR>(1129787747)[Thu Oct 20 00:55:47 2005] You gain experience!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two interrupts in one fight against a foe which had over 3200 hit points isn't something I personally feel is ridiculous.  Now, perhaps you're seeing more interrupts.  Maybe you're not   Granted the fight only took a minute, and it's just one fight...so here's a fact.  In my last 30 solo fights (against only green, blue, and white solo and heroic targets), I managed a grand total of 25 interrupts.  These fights were against ice wolves for a writ (all green to me, some heroic) and the haunted house in North Qeynos.  I do not have any Adept III spells, nor any real high end gear.  Yet, there it was - 30 fights with 25 interrupts.  I'll parse out several fights tonight as best I can but I highly encourage others to do the same. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that the reality is quite different from the perception in many cases and I'd wager that many parses over time against green, blue, and even white targets will show that.  I don't know this for a fact though, so I'm hoping to see more examples and parse out more numbers.  Hopefully I'll start to see a rate start to present itself over time.  With more Templars contributing parses, the numbers will hopefully be even more accurate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:31 PM</span>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <DIV>Repeating these lengthy walks down memory lane (your interpretation, btw) is not the slightest indication that you understand what he was saying.  There is nothing in your posts which indicates that you have any understanding of the intangibles that many posters talk about.  And you repeatedly say you don't want to deal with perceptions and such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, many aspects of games are intangible. For most of us it's not all numbers. The numbers on the heals don't mean diddly squat compared to what it FEELS like to use this healing system hour in hour out. In the last analysis the intangibles will sell the game a lot more than the numbers.  You certainly don't have to deal with intangibles, but somebody sure better deal with them because that's the area where the templar class - and the game, for that matter - is most lacking.  You can parse and post numbers up the ying yang and that won't alter the fact that for a lot of people the templar class just doesn't FEEL right.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I've never said "I don't want to deal with perceptions and such".  I've said I can't argue anyone's personal subjective opinion.  I've said that no matter what your opinion is, you're right.  If you like the changes, then you're right.  If you hate the changes, you're right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, for a moment, try to put yourself in a position where you have to manage projects and deal with client concerns.  You can't fix an issue if you don't know what the problem is, can you?  You can't quantify a tracker item for your engineers and designers to look at if they don't know exactly what it is they are supposed to fix, can you?  Can your engineers code in a new "feeling"?  Can your designers create a new "feel"?  If so, how do you write out that tracker item?  How do you submit that proposal? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you just put down "it don't feel right" on a piece of paper and send it on over to coding?  Do you say "make it more fun" and fire it off to the designers?  What is it you're actually asking for?  Your designers won't know this if you don't tell them.  Your coders can't make changes if they don't know exactly what it is they're changing, can they?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes, there's nothing wrong per se with simply announcing anger, frustration, or concerns.  However, without some quantifiable facts to support the opinion, you're not actually asking for anything substantial; you're simply venting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You can't hear if you don't listen.</P> <P>I've seen many people, including me, address the intangibles and the "fun" aspects of the templar class and other aspects of the game and they are just shouted down by people like you with your incessant focus on numbers.  It's remarkable that even now, you act like you've never heard it ... actually, it's not remarkable - it's not numbers so it went in one ear and out the other. </P> <P>Well this ain't a numbers issue bro.  All is not going to be perfect in the gaming world once they get the numbers balanced.  Frankly, I think we have far too many number crunchers working on the game already and far too few visionaries and artists.  Have you ever heard ANYONE now at SOE able to discuss game ideas and visions the way McQuaid can?  Maybe he can pull it off, maybe not, but sheesh, at least he can think of it and say it.</P> <P>I have personally mentioned several things in this forum, and some of you obsess on numbers so much all you do is immediately start demanding numbers.  The Mona Lisa didn't come about because Da Vinci crunched numbers.  A great game has a lot in common with a great painting ... the overall feel and effect.  You can't deal with anything but numbers.  Try.  Here's some of mine ... AGAIN, lol:</P> <P>I signed up to be a CLERIC.  Most people have a pretty good idea what a cleric in a fantasy game is by now.  They cast HEALS.  I didn't sign up to be a trick healer.  I didn't sign up to cast an idiotic spell that heals people when the mob dies.  I didn't sign up to cast contrived spells that MAY proc at heal (and always when you don't need it).  I didn't sign up to cast a conglomeration of contrived spells that you HOPE will combine to heal enough at or around the right time. </P> <P>I also didn't sign up for, ahem, reactives as my primary healing.  That was some semi-toy crap they gave us for an AA or something when we were all 65 and looking for something to do in EQ.  NOW it's a main system?  I don't want to heal people primarily by the mobs hitting them, I want to heal them primarily by ME healing them.</P> <P>I certainly didn't sign up to mez anything. Or to cast debuffs, except maybe on undead.  When, exactly, did a cleric become a mezzer debuffer.  I must have missed a meeting.  You can spin doctor this stuff all day long (why, I don't know, except for some apparent need to insist that everything is good), but mez is still mez.</P> <P>WHY do I have translocate?  That drives me nuts.  It is absurd to give a cleric translocate.  Give it to the classes that are masters of transportation spells.  I signed up to be a master of HEALING.</P> <P>Why do I have Harmony?  This is a classic druid/ranger spell.</P> <P><STRONG>The net result is I have a lot of garbage I don't want which was obviously given to templars to make up for not giving them what they do want: HEALING.  What I seem to be is a jack of a lot of trades and master of nothing.</STRONG></P> <P>In case I haven't mentioned it, I want HEALING ... good old straight up no BS healing.</P> <P>Is this a playable character?  Absolutely.  It plays pretty well.  I can get the healing done well enough and I can kill things well enough.  But it is entirely unsatisfying.  It feels like some patchwork toy cleric.</P> <P>Give me remedy and celestial and you can take all this garbage and throw it in the toilet. And I will then be able to heal circles around all of you with all your toy spells.  If somebody dies I want there to be only three possible reasons: (1) I didn't perform well enough, (2) somebody else screwed up, or (3) the fight was simply too tough .................. NOT the random number generator.</P> <P>As I have said a hundred times, this all arose from the misguided obsession to be NOT EQ. God forbid you risk enticing someone from EQ to EQ2.  You certainly wouldn't want to suck a long term loysl customer into another long term game would you.  Better you let Vanguard or somebody else grab them when they are ready to move on from EQ.</P> <P>If anything labeled "cleric" which can somehow heal some is good enough for you, knock yourself out.  It isn't good enough for me.  It isn't satisfying, and it isn't fun.  Yes, it's often possible to lose yourself in the game and forget all this.  When you're just having a good time with friends, or raiding, or whatever, it's often easy to simply have fun and not pay attention to how you're doing it.  I enjoy that too.  But for me it's not enough to keep me doing this long term, and I suspect that will apply to many others.  Heck, it's about worn out already.  Unfortunately, it seems the game has worn out for most of my friends, regardless of what classes they chose, and that's not helping me either.</P> <P>There's more - a lot more really - but I am tired so that's enough for now.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gchang on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:43 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gchang on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:45 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gchang on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> I didn't sign up to be a trick healer.  I didn't sign up to cast an idiotic spell that heals people when the mob dies.  I didn't sign up to cast contrived spells that MAY proc at heal (and always when you don't need it).  I didn't sign up to cast a conglomeration of contrived spells that you HOPE will combine to heal enough at or around the right time. <P>I also didn't sign up for, ahem, reactives as my primary healing.  That was some semi-toy crap they gave us for an AA or something when we were all 65 and looking for something to do in EQ.  NOW it's a main system?  I don't want to heal people primarily by the mobs hitting them, I want to heal them primarily by ME healing them.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure you did.  The combat revamp didn't change any of the above.  Therefore, if you chose this class at any time, then yes, you signed up to cast spells which heal when the target dies, spells which may proc a heal, and reactives as your primary healing.  </P> <P>Gripe, complain, shout, and vent all you want.  However, don't take it out on the waiter because you wanted Italian and you went to a Mexican resturaunt for it.  </P> <P>I can't argue "like", "dislike", "love", "hate", or even what your personal concept of what a "cleric" is.  The game's presented us with Templars.  We're a class based around spells you describe as idiotic, contrived, and as crap.  We always have been.  I can't help but think that if you've been playing as long as you have, you'd have figured that out with or without Live Update 13.</P> <P>Frankly, you don't seem to be happy with Everquest 2's system at all.  You seem to be arguing more and more for Everquest Classic with upgraded graphics, what with your arguments to <EM>"give me remedy and celestial and you can take all this garbage and throw it in the toilet."</EM></P>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> I didn't sign up to be a trick healer.  I didn't sign up to cast an idiotic spell that heals people when the mob dies.  I didn't sign up to cast contrived spells that MAY proc at heal (and always when you don't need it).  I didn't sign up to cast a conglomeration of contrived spells that you HOPE will combine to heal enough at or around the right time. <P>I also didn't sign up for, ahem, reactives as my primary healing.  That was some semi-toy crap they gave us for an AA or something when we were all 65 and looking for something to do in EQ.  NOW it's a main system?  I don't want to heal people primarily by the mobs hitting them, I want to heal them primarily by ME healing them.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure you did.  The combat revamp didn't change any of the above.  Therefore, if you chose this class at any time, then yes, you signed up to cast spells which heal when the target dies, spells which may proc a heal, and reactives as your primary healing.  </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>Did I say anything at all about the combat revamp?  Like I said, you can't hear when you don't listen.</FONT></P> <P>Gripe, complain, shout, and vent all you want.  However, don't take it out on the waiter because you wanted Italian and you went to a Mexican resturaunt for it.  </P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>I wanted a cleric and I came to a game which I had good reason to believe would give me a cleric.  And, I've been giving them plenty of time to get it done.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>And where's the love bro.  What happened to the "all opinions are welcome" bit.  I guess that went out the window when you were confronted with something you can't understand or agree with.  How quickly we go back to just denigrating the opinions of others.  Tsk  tsk.</FONT></P> <P>I can't argue "like", "dislike", "love", "hate", or even what your personal concept of what a "cleric" is.  The game's presented us with Templars.  We're a class based around spells you describe as idiotic, contrived, and as crap.  We always have been.  I can't help but think that if you've been playing as long as you have, you'd have figured that out with or without Live Update 13.</P> <P>Frankly, you don't seem to be happy with Everquest 2's system at all.  You seem to be arguing more and more for Everquest Classic with upgraded graphics, what with your arguments to <EM>"give me remedy and celestial and you can take all this garbage and throw it in the toilet."</EM></P><FONT color=#99ff00>A ray of light in the darkness.  Say Hallelulah!<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[NosmokIng]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Kayle]

<DIV>oh darn, I can't post the link because part of it gets "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" and I can't rename the flash file. boo <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

[zorbdan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>YOU ... and your cohorts.  Until today you've rambled endlessly about equality in healing.  Now you've apparently finally figured out that equality in healing necessarily demands equality overall, and there isn't any.  So suddenly you don't want to talk about equality anymore. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Quoted for emphasis.<BR><BR>In the past I've defended you Kendricke because youve tried to keep a balanced view. However, you have seriously lost your objectivity recently and have got yourself backed into some sort of fanboi corner where you are trying to defend SOE against a cacophany of very upset Templars. Whether you like it or not you are NOT in the majority on this one. All the templars in my guild are up in arms, Im not the only one to quit. All evidence on these boards and within the circle I play indicates that the large majority of Templars are upset with the way things stand - not because the other classes heal equally - but because our DPS is so awful and we can do little but heal in a group. The bottom line is we are now a very boring class to play.<BR><BR>I keep lurking these boards hoping for some sort of crumb. I miss playing with my friends but it was no fun after LU13. Everywhere I look though, Templars are getting kicked in the teeth, seemingly out of some desire to punish them for the position they were in pre-13.<BR><BR>Meanwhile, you Nova and Radar seem to have taken it upon yourselves to adopt some sort of moral high ground, implying that the rest of us are just whiners and dont know what we are talking about. Well we DO know what we are talking about - the class can heal well and we can also kill yellow con mobs solo. We are not saying that isnt the case. It's just so slow its staggeringly, mind-numbingly BORING. <BR><BR>Stop asking for numbers and data - we cant give it you because you cannot parse fun. Can you not understand that?<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Anduri on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I couldn't have said it better myself, in fact this pretty much sums up this whole thread.

[Kendricke]

<P> </P> <P>I'm not trying to defend anyone here.  I'm trying to get to the real issue.  Certainly there's nothing wrong with stating opinions and venting frustrations, but if the goal is to actually enact change, I'm going to have to insist that we at least attempt to verbalize what the exact issues are. </P> <P>It's incredibly easy in many cases for the developers to look at claims like "<EM>it takes me 5 minutes to solo anything</EM>" or "<EM>Furies can gain experience 4 times faster than we can</EM>" or "<EM>no one's going to want Templars in a group any</EM>more" and determine quickly if they're factual or hyperbole.  One quick report or query and a list of thousands of examples disproving the wild and sometimes spurious claims brought forth on these forums and the developer's going to know the truth rather quickly.</P> <P>My school of thought on the subject is that it's up to us to show the problem.  In another life, I work in a field where I deal with clients who have problems with a product my company develops and implements for millions of dollars over the course of months or years.  These clients don't just call up and say "well, this is broken and we don't want it anymore unless you fix it".  They contact us with some pretty specific problems most of the time and we're able to take that and immediately see the problems they see (or correct the misperception they have). </P> <P>It's obviously not the same situation here, but one common element is that a saavy customer is an informed customer.  Simply shouting out "we're broken here and you best fix us right now" isn't likely going to be taken anywhere near as seriously as "well, based on the experiences I had last night, I really think X, Y, and Z are problems...and I'd really like to see A, B, and/or C done to improve on this".  Put yourself in the developer shoes and tell me which one of those examples YOU'D prefer to deal with. </P> <P>Does it mean the first complaint is invalid?  Of course not.  However, it's also not informative.  What's broken?  What's the problem?  How do you know it's a problem?  What do you want done to fix the problem? </P> <P>If I'm somehow a bad person for challenging unsupported claims I personally feel are inaccurate or exaggerated, then so be it.  However, I know what it's like to be on the other side of the table on this and I'm trying my best to assist in getting the issues handled in a way that's most likely (in my perspective) to actually effect a positive change. </P>

[zorbdan]

It's ok I know you mean well by your posts and I think you have a clear understanding of the problems. I have to commend your efforts cause you do seem to be truly interested in getting to the reality of the problems. Good luck, you'll need it .

[Kayle]

<P>I'll tell you what went wrong.  This entire idea of healing the same, tanking the same, came from the mind of a man that's not even here anymore to carry it into fruition.</P> <P>That man was Brad McQuaid and his Vanguard forums are  backwashed with concerns that too many classes providing the same benefits without diversity are going to cause him grief.</P> <P>The very idea for EQ2 is not new.  It was talked about back in 2002 just before Brad left SOE and it was designed with the revamp ideas in mind.  Class balance was one of the issues they took a look at and decided it was a bad thing when one class was always required to do anything productive.</P> <P>It's a valid theory to believe that adding balance to tanking and heals among the sub-classes solves this dilemma.  The question is MORE of how do you implement that theory and make it work to the satisfaction of your players?</P> <P>Do you have enough skills to pass around to SIX different sub-classes who can now provide the primary function of their design?</P> <P>EQ2 has 6 within an archetype to be concerned with and imho, not enough skills (that includes utility) to pass around and still maintain diversity and interest.</P> <P>Vanguard has 4 within it's archetype to be concerned with and some are skeptical of even that many.</P> <P>Couple that with the reality that you do have a good majority of your player base that is EQ1-minded and will remind everyone of the celestial line, the complete heal, the druid/wizard port ability, levitation, etc., etc., that is notably absent from EQ2.</P> <P>Add in the reality that what we came to know of EQ2 for 8+ months rom launch until September was drastically changed and players are still adjusting to the storm that just blew in and don't want to hear unsympathetic replies.</P> <P>Personally I feel the biggest flaw is in too many sub-classes providing the same function without enough diversity to make them feel "whole".</P> <P>Should be interesting to see how Vanguard plays this out since it's going to use the same philosophy.</P> <P>One thing Sigil does very well that SOE could use improving on, is it excels in the PR department.   Players are a very forgiving bunch when even Raijinn sticks his head in without using the proverbial ban-stick.  Please put "Looking for PR ideas" in SOE's quest journal.  It needs to get that done.</P> <P>**FUNNY LINK BUT NOT APPROPRIATE**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div> </div> <p>I'm not trying to defend anyone here.  I'm trying to get to the real issue.  Certainly there's nothing wrong with stating opinions and venting frustrations, but if the goal is to actually enact change, I'm going to have to insist that we at least attempt to verbalize what the exact issues are. </p> <p>It's incredibly easy in many cases for the developers to look at claims like "<em>it takes me 5 minutes to solo anything</em>" or "<em>Furies can gain experience 4 times faster than we can</em>" or "<em>no one's going to want Templars in a group any</em>more" and determine quickly if they're factual or hyperbole.  One quick report or query and a list of thousands of examples disproving the wild and sometimes spurious claims brought forth on these forums and the developer's going to know the truth rather quickly.</p><hr></blockquote>The statement has been 'it takes 5 times as long as other classes for a templar to solo anything' and 'who wants to take templar to a group when there are alternatives?'. Think about it, if there are templar and a fury LFG and a groups needs one healer, the fury gets picked up regardless of what the group is doing. In the old days, the templar would have been picked if the group had group invis already, and the fury if they didn't. Now there is absolutely no reason to pick a templar unless the group already has a fury and needs a backup healer. Templar brings no useful utility to a group. Sure we have some minor health and mitigation buffs, but the fact is that those are not needed.</span><div></div>

[Analviper]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MarcusHT wrote:<BR> Kendricke, I am afraid you did not understand my point.  I didn't say anything about the changes for wardens.  Personally, I'm happy for them.  My point was that a boost in Templar DPS would not necessarily result in a reduction in our healing powers, as Supernova seems to fear....   especially not if Sony is trying to keep the healing powers balanced across all the priest classes, which has seemed to be a common theme lately.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh, on that we agree.  I believe there's still significant room to increase Templar DPS without overpowering or tipping the balance of the system.  A multiple concentration spell designed around very situational use could be just the thing.  Whether that's a self-only "holy aura" style damage shield or a summoned hammer "pet" (similar to the Everquest Cleric pet), there are several good suggestions floating around the forums these days regarding possible fixes to that issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously in a group situation, our DPS arguments go out the window, but soloing is another matter.  I've started a data collection thread to try to bring some specific attention to the issue from a factual, constructive point of view (complaint threads are already a dime a dozen, it seems - thought I'd try a different approach).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Perhaps making use of the HEAVY armour would be a good place to start? if templars could just spend a little less power healing and concentrate on our smites etc then the dps issue wouldnt be so noticedable... I mean seriously wearing the best armour in the game actually has no purpose at all at the moment stats wise its not that much better than medium and leatehr in some cases. there are tiny little tweaks that could easily be made and would not in anyway effect the balance of the game. Another example would simply be cutting the casting time and mana use on smites and heals? People are far to quick to "DEMAND DPS" and "BETTER HEALS" but in the long run we know it wont happen because it will actually unblance the classes.</P> <P>Im not for one second suggesting templars are granted enough Dps in fact far from it! when it takes 90secs minimum to take down lv 45 - 50 solo mobs at level 52 you have to ask yourself why even bother. and the measly 0.1% xp (if you're lucky) has confined templars to being group healers and nothing else. We arent asking to be DPS machines liek rangers or even be on par with other other healers just be given the choice to solo and have it worth out while.</P> <P>I noticed another post about the reduction in players lately, sadly i have also noticed this seeing a TS 2 instance has become a very rare thing indeed. The majority of which has been sicne the DoF Expansion and leading up to it. i personally quite liek the expansion but anyone can see the XP issue need to be dealt with and in SoE's defence making ^^^ mobs worth a bit more in the last part is a start but i think it needs to extend beyond that.</P> <P>I do however know alot of high level players who have just cancelled their accounts due to the "nerfing" that took place with the combat changes.. and now i think there are 3 Templars over level 50 in our guild. It has litterally become a chore to sign on and hope for a group as a templar now, i havent enjoyed playing my character for almost a month and am strongly considering cancelling my account.</P> <P>Lets just hope SoE address the situation and LISTEN to what people have to say rather than work on the next expansion to bring in $$$ how about concentrating on what you have and makin people enjoy the game again?</P> <P>Galv Lv52 Templar, Neriak</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Analviper wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Im not for one second suggesting templars are granted enough Dps in fact far from it! when it takes 90secs minimum to take down lv 45 - 50 solo mobs at level 52 you have to ask yourself why even bother. and the measly 0.1% xp (if you're lucky) has confined templars to being group healers and nothing else. We arent asking to be DPS machines liek rangers or even be on par with other other healers just be given the choice to solo and have it worth out while.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Again, this is an example of an unsupported statement.  You make a statement that it takes "90secs minimum" to take down level 45-50 solo mobs and the next thing you know, someone like me is pointing out logs where he's ripping through those same targets in 30-45 seconds at level 51 with non-rare gear.  If my logs show it, that means other logs show it.  That means the developers have access to parses which show that "90secs minimum" is an erroneous statement, and not one they're likekly to take seriously.  It's unsupported hyperbole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <div>Again, this is an example of an unsupported statement.  You make a statement that it takes "90secs minimum" to take down level 45-50 solo mobs and the next thing you know, someone like me is pointing out logs where he's ripping through those same targets in 30-45 seconds at level 51 with non-rare gear.  If my logs show it, that means other logs show it.  That means the developers have access to parses which show that "90secs minimum" is an erroneous statement, and not one they're likekly to take seriously.  It's unsupported hyperbole.</div> <><><hr></blockquote>Well pick up any lvl 45 caiman with down arrow. My lvl 42 monk kills it in 13seconds. My lvl 53 templar in 35 to 40 seconds. Make a guess which one get more xp even... Soloing a templar is not an option to me anymore. Thus I wont log to my templar and wont get into any groups either.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>Well pick up any lvl 45 caiman with down arrow. My lvl 42 monk kills it in 13seconds. My lvl 53 templar in 35 to 40 seconds. Make a guess which one get more xp even...<BR><BR>Soloing a templar is not an option to me anymore. Thus I wont log to my templar and wont get into any groups either.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Again, not something I'm arguing.  It's established that all classes do not solo equally, and that's apparantly the developer's design.  Moorgard has stated clearly that some classes are simply better at soloing than other classes are.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

[Truffor]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=12052"></a>Kendricke, let's talk about facts.Our reactive were overpowered pre-LU13 ? Now it's almost halved, let's say it's ok "at least".My avoidance dropped from 50% to 12%. Considering new reactives, we can't solo "big targets" when needed anymore.Gameplay is awful due to interrupts (especially with such a low avoidance).Now that we are just a bit better healers than others (the main SOE goal so let say we don't need more healing power), tell me how THE HELL could we have such a #^$ù*$ DPS ?!! We were the slowest class or almost considering killing. It's twice worse post revamp. We can't even claim having the safety supremacy, where is balance ?? Are we just plain healslaves ? It's even beyond balance as it was already too long ! Who is the <font color="#ff3333">pathetic beeing</font> that told it was okay like this ?When it comes to frustration and when some says the class is broken, at least, understand that BALANCE is broken. Templars have not been balanced, they have fallen beneath that point. Some will want their healing power back but SoE won't give it back (now) and some wants DPS. Following or not class vision of devs, as it is today, CLASS (or fun playing the class) IS BROKEN, hammer it in your head and let us whine. What we FEEL today is based on FACTS.<a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=12052"><span></span></a><div></div><p>Message Edited by Truffor on <span class="date_text">10-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:36 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Truffor on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span>Well pick up any lvl 45 caiman with down arrow. My lvl 42 monk kills it in 13seconds. My lvl 53 templar in 35 to 40 seconds. Make a guess which one get more xp even...Soloing a templar is not an option to me anymore. Thus I wont log to my templar and wont get into any groups either.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Again, not something I'm arguing.  It's established that all classes do not solo equally, and that's apparantly the developer's design.  Moorgard has stated clearly that some classes are simply better at soloing than other classes are.  </div> <> <><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class="date_text">10-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:19 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yes, I have noticed that. And couldn't disagree more with you nor Moorgard. Why? Because at launch, this game was hostile for soloers. Solo content was added after I had picked my class. Thus it is total BS to claim that some classes were not meant to solo and some were as there was no solo content beyond t1 zones in the beginning.</span><div></div>

[NosmokIng]

Therein lies thr problem. <font color="#ff0066">Kendricke</font>: "Again, not something I'm arguing.  It's established that all classes do not solo equally, and that's apparantly the developer's design.  Moorgard has stated clearly that some classes are simply better at soloing than other classes are. " So... even according to this above.. we ARE supposed to heal equally but nothing else. Which by its nature i.e. we lack utility and we solo slower than any other class means we are the functionally worse class to play in the entire game. Other healers heal the same, kill faster, add more to a group etc. If you do not except that you are going against your own arguement.

[Dillin]

<P>Let me throw a little more fuel to the fire... Was grouped with a Warden, 1 totally tripped out SK, 2 Necros and a Warlock.  One of the times I died (I tend to watch everyones else's health but mine), guess who rezz'd me?  Take a wild guess.  Come on, you know that the answer is...</P> <P> </P> <P>Did you say the Warden?  WRONG!  He was dead right next to me.  So try again!  OK Kendricke got it... the NECROMANCER Rezz'd me!  Ding ding, Kendricke gets the prize.  The Necro could rez me becuase he had his pet tank the mob standing on us just long enough for us to get up and run.  It's humiliating to be rez'd by the one man army.  Oh yes... he's an army of one.  He has great nukes, comes fully loaded with a tank and 2, count them *2* other pets to call for added melee DPS.  But wait, there's more!  He can heal himself too!  </P> <P>Man I love balance...</P> <P>The SK got upset with me because he felt my buffs were useless and I made him stop so I could buff him.  So I thought "I'll show him!".  So I took off ALL my buffs.  2 hours later he asked what buffs he was missing because his numbers were down.  Not that he noticed a difference...</P> <P>Man I love balance...</P> <P>Do I have numbers yet?  Not quite but I will soon enough</P>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>I'm not trying to defend anyone here.  I'm trying to get to the real issue.  Certainly there's nothing wrong with stating opinions and venting frustrations, but if the goal is to actually enact change, I'm going to have to insist that we at least attempt to verbalize what the exact issues are. <FONT color=#ff3333>Most of the folks here are not going to be parsing this out. Most have stated the facts - as applied to their own level of common sense. I think that is the issue Kend. You think that common sense is subjective. But corrections can always be made - isnt the Mark line part of our "utility"? Maybe it should be listed in your "comparative utility" breakdown. To me thats just common sense.</FONT></P> <P>It's incredibly easy in many cases for the developers to look at claims like "<EM>it takes me 5 minutes to solo anything</EM>" or "<EM>Furies can gain experience 4 times faster than we can</EM>" or "<EM>no one's going to want Templars in a group any</EM>more" and determine quickly if they're factual or hyperbole.  One quick report or query and a list of thousands of examples disproving the wild and sometimes spurious claims brought forth on these forums and the developer's going to know the truth rather quickly. <FONT color=#ff3333>Alot like what happened on the Druid boards....sounds familiar. But tell me what you think, and how it is different...</FONT></P> <P>My school of thought on the subject is that it's up to us to show the problem.  In another life, I work in a field where I deal with clients who have problems with a product my company develops and implements for millions of dollars over the course of months or years.  These clients don't just call up and say "well, this is broken and we don't want it anymore unless you fix it".  They contact us with some pretty specific problems most of the time and we're able to take that and immediately see the problems they see (or correct the misperception they have). <FONT color=#ff3333>Interesting way of dealing with problems, one at a time, and in the order the are received. I question the relevance of this - do you mean to say that all the problems in this game should be dealt with in such a business like manner? If so - okay I will bite. What happened with the Druids boyo? Seemed sorta knee jerk-the sky is bloody falling - I am gonna quit - arms akimbo - unless you gimme what I want right now - fix. But maybe thats just my "perception", and not why the Devs refer to it as a .... "hot-fix"?</FONT></P> <P>It's obviously not the same situation here, but one common element is that a saavy customer is an informed customer.  Simply shouting out "we're broken here and you best fix us right now" isn't likely going to be taken anywhere near as seriously as "well, based on the experiences I had last night, I really think X, Y, and Z are problems...and I'd really like to see A, B, and/or C done to improve on this".  Put yourself in the developer shoes and tell me which one of those examples YOU'D prefer to deal with. <FONT color=#ff3333>S</FONT><FONT color=#ff3333>o we arent going to deal with problems the logical business way. Fair enough - so no shouting from the rooftops? But why give all that specific data? It worked for the Druids. I want a "hot-fix" too. Okay I will put myself in Dev shoes. Sometimes they walk well, and sometimes they are just this side stinking to high hell. Thats not a personal attack. Thats  plain and simple common sense on both their response times and their ability to address issues in the order that THEY create them. I have been guilty in RL of having my bad days at work. The Devs are no different. And in this case- they blew it. It is common sense, and thats your parse Kend.</FONT></P> <P>Does it mean the first complaint is invalid?  Of course not.  However, it's also not informative.  What's broken?  What's the problem?  How do you know it's a problem?  What do you want done to fix the problem? <FONT color=#ff3333>What is broken is our ability to understand common sense. The problem is creating problems, e.g. Druid Heals, Mystc Wards, Pali DPS, Templar "utility" and then spending over a year to get to them in certain cases, e.g., Shaman Wards, but getting another fixxed in a matter of weeks, e.g. Druid "sub-par" healing. Was that "specific" enough boyo or would you like to know the spell names? The Devs know what we are talking about - these things are general malfunction. They can be made more specific, e.g., Mark like bumped 200% in effectiveness proc rate increased to 25% to bring in more in line with the shaman pets while debuff remains, or Curate line bumped 100% in effectiveness and proc rate increased to 25%. These are our "utility"after all. I know these things are problems because I have heard enough people with enough common sense to know. They could all be lying. Mass hysteria could be running rampant on these boards - that is a possibility Kendrick. I will give you that. Or - it could be possible that one person, or even two or three, hell I could be one, could be wrong about it all. And who would that be? Which is the more simple explaination?</FONT></P> <P>If I'm somehow a bad person for challenging unsupported claims I personally feel are inaccurate or exaggerated, then so be it.  However, I know what it's like to be on the other side of the table on this and I'm trying my best to assist in getting the issues handled in a way that's most likely (in my perspective) to actually effect a positive change. <FONT color=#ff3333>I agree - I truly beilieve that you are trying to help get these issues handled. My problem with your approach is this : it lacks commitment to the clients. In RL you may have made an outstanding prosecutor, with the exception of the common sense issue, but I doubt even a vagrant would hire you denfend him against tresspassing charges. Truly - the way to effect change is to let the people decide. It is good to have one voice to make all the rest reconsider, but when the vote is put to the jury and all say guilty with clear conscious who are you to ask for more from them? Judge or Jury?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333>Lates.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[NosmokIng]

<div></div>Well said Takeo101.  There's like a whole host of us Templers posting and saying what the problem and how it ruins it for people who have been playing for nearly a year and then like 3/4 fanboys are denying all knowledge of it - and don't they realise that their ever so eloquent 'parse me this blah' just convolutes the message coming from the rest of us. Fanboys:- we pay SOE to sort this stuff out not you - thats there job - to read these board and too play.   You shouting down every post saying the class has gone to pot isnt helping us one bit. Fact...  Healing is about balanced now... well woopie do dah... All Healers class can rez, plus necros and pali's. What do we get? eh Fact: we are the slowest DPS of any class in game. So if our healing is balance Why the h&^% isnt the rest.  Why cant we have a get out of jail free' evac, or sow, or invis or the ability add damage to a group. If any fan boy seriously think that we kill a mob as fast as a fury or mystic then they must me playing the wrong game. We wear the best armour but it is not use to us. Dont you get it... We are the underling class of the game. We decided to play Templers because we wanted to be a master of one trade and wear plate.  A trade off was that we didnt get the utility that other healers got.. SOE with the changes as made the healing all equal and yet given us anything near like what the other classes have in return.  Go play a fury, go play a mystic,  or even go play a necro... We are underbalanced... and it aint fun after so much time and effort. SOE fix it!!! <div></div><p>Message Edited by NosmokIng on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>NosmokIng wrote:<div></div> Why cant we have a get out of jail free' evac, or sow, or invis or the ability add damage to a group. <hr></blockquote>I prefer a 3 min recast gate back home to a long casting interruptable evac that doesn't work in-combat, but that's just my opinion. Furthermore, SoW and Invis, these can be granted with SoW totems (or horse / jboots / carpet etc) and Chameleon totems. Basically I can buy the Shaman / Druid utility spells off the broker for a few silver. Templar utility is bonus healing, which cannot be bought off the broker. Just one of the reasons why I am content with Templar utility. I enjoy having added healing power for utility and when I want to run faster or invis past some mobs, I just fire up a cheap totem. DPS is in my opinion the only valid issue here that really needs to be addressed first hand. I have seen the damage rating's on Adept3 and Master1 Tier6 nukes and it is startingly high for us, with Mark of the Celesital comming in at 60 to debuff divine resists and these more powerful nukes, we can make do for the time being. </span><div></div>

[NosmokIng]

2 quotes... Nosmok: "and then like 3/4 fanboys" Supernova17: "<span> I enjoy having added healing power for utility" So where is your added healing after the big Balancing Heals Act... I rest my case. </span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Supernova17 wrote:<span> Furthermore, SoW and Invis, these can be granted with SoW totems (or horse / jboots / carpet etc) and Chameleon totems. Basically I can buy the Shaman / Druid utility spells off the broker for a few silver. Templar utility is bonus healing, which cannot be bought off the broker. Just one of the reasons why I am content with Templar utility. I enjoy having added healing power for utility and when I want to run faster or invis past some mobs, I just fire up a cheap totem. </span><hr></blockquote>Sad to say but there are healing potions on market. And templar utility healing is not that much more than what those heal, plus healing potion will heal with 100% certainty instead of procs.</span><div></div>

[rollando]

I've started to monitor the class repartition on Runnyeye. I'm waiting to have some data over a longer period of time to post them, but what I start to see is that the proportion of priests is dropping, and that the proportion of templars among priests is dropping even faster. <BR><BR>There must be a reason.

[Antryg Mistrose]

Supernova7 said various things: <font color="#ffff00"> I prefer a 3 min recast gate back home to a long casting interruptable evac that doesn't work in-combat, but that's just my opinion.</font> Warden evac is in combat, as is every other type.  I'm still on my first stack of odyssey stones so my opinion differs. <span><font color="#ffff00"> Furthermore, SoW and Invis, these can be granted with SoW totems (or horse / jboots / carpet etc) and Chameleon totems. Basically I can buy the Shaman / Druid utility spells off the broker for a few silver</font> Chamelon totem is a level 37 recipe, with only 6? uses.  Drop and restore it for any reason, and thats another charge gone.  I have yet to see them on Najena for under 1.5g if they are on the broker at all. </span><span><font color="#ffff00">Templar utility is bonus healing, </font></span><span>i.e. Non-existent</span> <span><font color="#ffff00"> which cannot be bought off the broker</font> Potions. </span><span> </span><div></div>

[Nari]

Yeah, odyssey is pretty slow.  It provides me with some entertainment because I keep it next to the divine awakening button.  I haven't sent any group members home, yet.  I look forward to the day when the elf smacks me from the other desk (trying to interrupt my peals of laughter.) <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>So where is your added healing after the big Balancing Heals Act... I rest my case.<BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What case?  You walked in with conclusions but nothing to support them.  </P> <P><EM>"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, allow me to save you the expense of a trial by jumping straight to my summation:  Templars are guilty - the end."</EM>  Who needs facts, research, or even just basic questioning when you've already come to a conclusion that fits the argument you want to make, right?<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any regards, I ran several runs last night in the Clefts of Rujark with a Fury and Mystic in my group.  We took turns healing the group to test out direct comparisons.  We discussed our differing spell lines and parsed out numbers.  We tried different combinations of debuffs/heals, and worked on some heal competitions as well (often to the terror of the Berserker in our group).  One thing was that I was continually told to stop healing in fights where I hadn't cast a single heal.  What was occuring was my Mark of Kings and Glory of Combat (on the two Swashbucklers) was firing off quite a bit and often I'd perform 2,000 or more points of heals in a group even without casting a single spell.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd say that our added healing utlity is quite evident...regardless of how you feel the case on it is closed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR> I'm still on my first stack of odyssey stones so my opinion differs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm on my third stack (of 50) in the past few months.  I tend to use Odyssey instead of Call (preferring to keep Call available as an emergency backup for myself) and use Odyssey for basic daily transport.  For writ runs, it's invaluable.  Even though I take longer on most fights than other members of my guild, the fact that I'm able to Odyssey between EVERY run to a selectable bind point (next to the writ giver), allows me to move through writs faster than anyone else in my guild.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR> Why cant we have a get out of jail free' evac, or sow, or invis or the ability add damage to a group.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I prefer a 3 min recast gate back home to a long casting interruptable evac that doesn't work in-combat, but that's just my opinion.<BR><BR>Furthermore, SoW and Invis, these can be granted with SoW totems (or horse / jboots / carpet etc) and Chameleon totems. Basically I can buy the Shaman / Druid utility spells off the broker for a few silver. Templar utility is bonus healing, which cannot be bought off the broker. <BR><BR>Just one of the reasons why I am content with Templar utility. I enjoy having added healing power for utility and when I want to run faster or invis past some mobs, I just fire up a cheap totem. <BR><BR>DPS is in my opinion the only valid issue here that really needs to be addressed first hand. I have seen the damage rating's on Adept3 and Master1 Tier6 nukes and it is startingly high for us, with Mark of the Celesital comming in at 60 to debuff divine resists and these more powerful nukes, we can make do for the time being. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Extra healing can be bought off the broker. Check with your local alchemist. Please refrain from misstatements. In fact there are 2 different types of healing you can buy off broker. A big Heal or a HoT.</P> <P>Thanks for playing.</P>

[Takeo1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>So where is your added healing after the big Balancing Heals Act... I rest my case.<BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What case?  You walked in with conclusions but nothing to support them.  <FONT color=#ff3333>/sigh You still need parses? Is there a common sense clause? No? Okay - how about a Razor? Still no? What have the majority decided that come to these boards? Is mass hysteria still running rampant? I will give you that some of it is playstyles, and a sense of comfort. But in the end - this is not a criminal case. What does the balance of the evidence say?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333>Before you run off about "what evidence", and "what problems <EM>specifically", </EM>and "where are the parses" let me get this into you. The evidence are the posts themselves. The problems are contained in the posts themselves. The parses are <EM>not</EM> forthcoming, unless you do them yourself, because it is a game, and although I am curious myself awhiles, the general opinion of the players should be considered the rule. Do I know it is a game created and maintained by SoE? Of course. That leaves them in the judges role, overturn it if they desire, set it aside, what have you. But the jury has said, with evidence garnered by combined <EM>years</EM> of playing Templars, that certain things need to be reworked. Read the posts - again. Or is it just mass hysteria - again?</FONT></P> <P><EM>"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, allow me to save you the expense of a trial by jumping straight to my summation:  Templars are guilty - the end."</EM>  Who needs facts, research, or even just basic questioning when you've already come to a conclusion that fits the argument you want to make, right? <FONT color=#ff3333>I believe I just covered this ground Kend. The facts, research and even basic questioning that you seem to think is lacking in all this is contained...aye, in the posts themselves. Its there, read between the lines a bit awhiles if it suits you to do so. I am thinking that not all are as analytical and well-versed in American English as you.</FONT></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any regards, I ran several runs last night in the Clefts of Rujark with a Fury and Mystic in my group.  We took turns healing the group to test out direct comparisons.  We discussed our differing spell lines and parsed out numbers.  We tried different combinations of debuffs/heals, and worked on some heal competitions as well (often to the terror of the Berserker in our group).  One thing was that I was continually told to stop healing in fights where I hadn't cast a single heal.  What was occuring was my Mark of Kings and Glory of Combat (on the two Swashbucklers) was firing off quite a bit and often I'd perform 2,000 or more points of heals in a group even without casting a single spell.  <FONT color=#ff3333>Thats good hard evidence based on common sense. I like it! I have a question though - what if you didnt have a solid dual-weilding class in group. Did you try that? Just curious. And if you had lost those Swashies, how do you think your heals would have stacked up? Did you give it a whirl? Again - just curious.</FONT><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd say that our added healing utlity is quite evident...regardless of how you feel the case on it is closed.<FONT color=#ff3333> Well I guess some just like to exhaust all appeals. What can one say?:smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333>Lates.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>10-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Takeo101 on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333> I have a question though - what if you didnt have a solid dual-weilding class in group. Did you try that? Just curious. And if you had lost those Swashies, how do you think your heals would have stacked up? Did you give it a whirl? Again - just curious.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If Swashbucklers aren't present, I try other scouts, fighters, Conjuror pets, and so forth till I find what is best for the use of the spell.  If I'm somehow stuck in a unlikely situation with where I'm grouped with no scouts, no fighters, and no pet classes, I'll likely use the concentration to cast other spells.  </P> <P>As far as PROC rates, I've seen a few good write ups in different scout and fighter forums that suggest PROC rates are not calculated on a per hit basis.  Near as has been determined, PROC rates self adjust to 1h or 2h as well as dual wielding by normalizing over 3 second periods.  By the way, the PROC rate from bows is pretty much outstanding.  </P> <P>Some extended parses over thousands of fights by a friend of mine from the Assassin boards (agra) have actually demonstrated less than a 1% deviance from stated PROC rates when measured over 3 second intervals.  Regardless of whether or not you're using dual wields, 1 handers, or slow 2 handers, a 5% PROC is a 5% PROC when measured in 3 second intervals of time according to him. </P> <P>Now granted, that's just one school of thought on the subject, but the other school I've aware of still uses a formula to normalize PROC rates over a 3 second period.  The general consensus seems to be that PROC rates are not based purely on hit, but over time by measuring 3 second intervals.  This is the school of thought advocated by Khaylsta (of Scout's Sanctuary).  Her formula would show that (weapon delay)/3*(listed PROC rate)*100 = true normalized PROC rate.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Takeo1]

<DIV> <DIV>That PROC Rate fomula isnt too far removed at all from the one that has become a standard in EQLive, and I am familiar with proc/haste rates in particular having played a bard for 5 years. I understand this is NOT EQLive.  Still Kend - despite what the numbers say about what should or should not be happening, depending on which school of thought you may or may not follow - what was your experience with the lack of GoC alone on a scout class? On point - why exactly would you try for other scouts, I am assuming that is what you meant, if in a parsing mode, the dps is inconsequential? I understand why you would want them in group for dps, but wasnt this parse about healing? I would hope that the "utility" of just one of spells, i.e. GoC, isnt dependent on having a particular class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My own personal experience, unsupported by hard parses, just a year of playing and noticing power usage, cost, heal output, etc, lends itself to GoC being VERY class/character dependent. The MT for our little three-pack is a monk. He can dw, as you know. When dw, he has very high and consistent proc rates from GoC, when primary only procs are low and inconsistent. He takes less damage from ripostes, when not dw, but it does not balance. Power output actually increases from primary hand usage because of the lack of GoC, and his exceptional 72% 360deg avoidance, fully buffed from both myself and a 51 Mystic, including Avatar. I am wondering why that might be...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lates.</DIV></DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Takeo101 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>That PROC Rate fomula isnt too far removed at all from the one that has become a standard in EQLive, and I am familiar with proc/haste rates in particular having played a bard for 5 years. I understand this is NOT EQLive.  Still Kend - despite what the numbers say about what should or should not be happening, depending on which school of thought you may or may not follow - what was your experience with the lack of GoC alone on a scout class? On point - why exactly would you try for other scouts, I am assuming that is what you meant, if in a parsing mode, the dps is inconsequential? I understand why you would want them in group for dps, but wasnt this parse about healing? I would hope that the "utility" of just one of spells, i.e. GoC, isnt dependent on having a particular class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My own personal experience, unsupported by hard parses, just a year of playing and noticing power usage, cost, heal output, etc, lends itself to GoC being VERY class/character dependent. The MT for our little three-pack is a monk. He can dw, as you know. When dw, he has very high and consistent proc rates from GoC, when primary only procs are low and inconsistent. He takes less damage from ripostes, when not dw, but it does not balance. Power output actually increases from primary hand usage because of the lack of GoC, and his exceptional 72% 360deg avoidance, fully buffed from both myself and a 51 Mystic, including Avatar. I am wondering why that might be...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lates.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I guess it's just superstition as much as anything - much like lucky socks, and the number 7, and putting proc spells on the scout.</P> <P>As far as the parse being about healing, I didn't set up the group specifically to lock several folks into a parse for several hours.  I used the group that I was in to conduct the parse overall, and asked the group members if they'd mind assisting.  Please don't assume more than what is there.</P> <P>As far as your experiences with proc rates, perhaps you could post that on the monk or scout forums to see what they feel about the situation.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:46 AM</span>

[Nari]

This is pretty helpful to me because I was noticing that my Mark of Kings and Involuntary Healer were not firing off nearly as often as I had hoped.  I am not certain of the classes that the mobs we were fighting (I'd bet that they weren't scouts,) but we mainly had a fury and (sometimes) two paladins.  We often don't get to put together ideal groups as we're out hunting with friends.  This gives me insight on how to better prepare for the @#*^$ storm of damage we get coming at us sometimes. <div></div>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<p>Extra healing can be bought off the broker. Check with your local alchemist. Please refrain from misstatements. In fact there are 2 different types of healing you can buy off broker. A big Heal or a HoT.</p> <p>Thanks for playing.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Rofl!    The<i> rare</i> T5 "big heal" is 264 hp and has a 30sec recast.  </span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>Extra healing can be bought off the broker. Check with your local alchemist. Please refrain from misstatements. In fact there are 2 different types of healing you can buy off broker. A big Heal or a HoT.</P> <P>Thanks for playing.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Rofl!    The<I> rare</I> T5 "big heal" is 264 hp and has a 30sec recast. <BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Also, because it's an item, can you even interrupt the cast if you need to, suddenly? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Supernova17]

Only someone completely inept would disagree with what I posted. I was making a simple point: Druids and Shamans have SoW - You can buy SoW Totems for the same effect. Many classes can become Invis - You can buy Invis Totems for the same effect. Those were major things people wanted, and the fact you can have them without playing the class or being grouped with a person of that class makes the utility spells less unique. Templar utility comes in the form of Glory of Combat, Mark line, Involuntary line, Divine Arbitrition, Sanctuary, Reverence, Faith line etc. Show me a potion that can indeffinately add a 5% group heal proc for 436 (Master 1) to be placed on as many allies as you can spare conc. Show me potions that not only put up a minor HoT, but also debuff divine resistance. Show me a potion that can trigger a minor heal, but cure trauma impairments at the same time. Show me a totem or potion that can take the sum of the group's HP and redistribute it among the group (effectively taking your tank from red to even yellow in 1 second, in my case this is about a 4-5k spot heal for the MT). Do we have totems or potions that make our groups immune to stun, stifle, fear, root etc? Do we have potions and totems that replenish health to group members when the spend power? Do we have potions and totems that boost magic/mental/divine resists like mad (912 for my Master 1) and ward against upwards of 1.5k magic/mental/divine based damage? That's the gist of our utility, you can summarize that as added healing, damage prevention and resist / immunity buffs. I think most people are more concerned with our DPS than utility at this point. I'm content to just sit around and watch what goes on. I signed up to be a Templar to be a powerful healer and imo I am that, so I'm satisfied. I can wish and hope some things would get fixed or improved, but it is more of an afterthought as far as I'm concerned. The only things I get irate over if Templars saying that other classes can outheal us a dozen times over and have unique and interesting utility, when it is shared by many classes and can even be purchased in some cases. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Morie wrote:<span> <blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote:<p>Extra healing can be bought off the broker. Check with your local alchemist. Please refrain from misstatements. In fact there are 2 different types of healing you can buy off broker. A big Heal or a HoT.</p> <p>Thanks for playing.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Rofl!    The<i> rare</i> T5 "big heal" is 264 hp and has a 30sec recast.  </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, that is about what templar healing utility is worth. So fact is that you get the templar utility from broker too. I am not laughing. But then again, I have a templar. </span><div></div>

[kenji]

Druids and Shamans have SoW - You can buy SoW Totems for the same effect.<BR>Many classes can become Invis - You can buy Invis Totems for the same effect. <BR> <P>which class doesnt have Call of Qeynos / Call of Freeport / Splitpaw?</P>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote: <p>which class doesnt have Call of Qeynos / Call of Freeport / Splitpaw?</p><hr></blockquote>What does that have to do with anything? We were talking about class utility spells, not the gates that everyone can get. </span><p></p>

[NosmokIng]

So.. do you really believe that our slow casting oddessy is even slightly comparable to a get out of trouble free Evac? When all classed get home gate spell. Choice between 2 people who heal approx the same.. One can do get out of gaol free evac One can add DPS Do you ever dungeon crawl without Evac? is evac preferable? I think you are sadly mistaken n the difference between evac and Oddessy ( oops my COQ is down... please save me thr trouble of running compared to everyones gonna die and we would have to do a corpse run but hey.. we have a priest class who can evac..) <p></p>

[Kendricke]

<P></P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NosmokIng wrote:<BR>So.. do you really believe that our slow casting oddessy is even slightly comparable to a get out of trouble free Evac?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, I don't believe they are slightly comparable.  You apparantly do not, either - and yet you keep comparing the two.  I believe Odyssey is comparable to Spirit of Wolf, since that's the same level druids and shamans get that spell.  You can't compare a level 13 class spell against a level 39 subclass spell and expect equivilancy.  </P> <P> </P> <P>As far as Odyssey vs. Spirit of the Wolf, I'd take Odyssey in a minute.  There is NO totem or potion that gives the same effect.  </P> <P> </P> <P>If you're going to compare apples to apples, at least compare Warden "evac" to the other level 39 priest spells.  Incidently, Wardens receive their evac, Verdurous Journey, at the same level Furies gain Spirit of Cheetah - NOT the level they receive invisibility (which is often compared apple/apple to Evac).  Also at 39, Templars receive our stun, Inquisitors receive a root/stifle, Defilers receive a fear, and Mystics receive a massive slow - all spells which seem designed to remove or reduce the danger facing a priest's group, presumably to give time for an escape or to regain control of a situation gone badly.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

<P>The problem is we all know what a cleric is in fantasy terms, and an EQ2 Templar is not a cleric.  I'm not quite sure what it is any more, but it's not a cleric.</P> <P>The oddly funny thing is that in spite of how badly EQ1 has gone down the toilet the last couple years, its Cleric class is far better at being a cleric than EQ2's Templar class.</P> <P></P>

[Kendricke]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[KingOfF00LS]

<P></P> <P>I didn't "attack" anyone, and if you're going to modify my posts then you should be modifying the posts of those who treat others with constant sanctimonious condescension.</P> <P>Message Edited by KingOfF00LS on <SPAN class=date_text>10-27-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:58 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by KingOfF00LS on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

[Xaax]

<P></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KingOfF00LS wrote:<BR> <P></P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>** PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#66ff66>That is a very valid point. I have played over 20 RPG games from Grups to D&D to RPGs that people make up. I have played most of the online MMORGS and have been playing computer games sense they have had them on the TSR-80. You will find very few games that have a cleric the same, most are similar to some degree, they prey to a higher power, they receive spells from a higher power, and they tend to be fanatical and so on. I will say that not all priests heal and even care to. Historically there is as many different versions of priests as there are cultures, religions and stories from both living and extinct peoples. <SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#66ff66 size=3>I would hope that in the end we are really talking about either the warrior priests of Earth legend, which a templar is nothing even close or we are talking about some D&D/Tolken level of what a cleric is.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 AM</span>

[Takeo1]

<P></P> <P> </P> <P>I dont know that its reasonable to assume that SoE MUST make a Templar comparable with our own vision of clerics in general. I will agree it is their game, we do just pay to play. My question is - why not give some of those problems a look, the worst that can happen is they take it back later. Hell - they did it enough in EQLive, e,g. AoE DoT Kiting, Charmburning, Donal's, Manaburn, etc. Its all good to me. What I still trying to get - is what the hell passes for facts and opinions to the Devs. I see alot of posts asking for parses, the proverbial "give me hard data", but when the simple question of observation as empirical evidence is raised - it is shot down. </P> <P> </P> <P>Kend - you are case in point. To be specific - no offense, but you have asked for specifics, including parses. The closest you came to presenting anything even remotely resembling your own requirements was a group that agreed to do switch-hitter healing. You maintained that the other two healers asked you repeatedly to stop healing, <EM>even when you were not.</EM> This could make one believe, perhaps mistakenly so, that our healing was incredibly formidable, <EM>even without RH, GRH, and DH.</EM> You explained that it was the proc rate from GoC which allowed this primarily. You specified in the same post that you had placed GoC on the scouts in your party. This could make one believe, again perhaps mistakenly so, that the formidable healing you were capable of as a result of the proc rate from GoC was also in part due to the Swashbucklers you cast it on. When I asked for specifics on the proc rates, in a later post, you listed two schools of thought, never saying which one you followed. You also said that you try to find scouts to cast GoC on, then pets, etc. When I asked you why, particularly after listing my own experience, non-parsed but purely observational, you compared it to "lucky socks." </P> <P> </P> <P>I assumed, wrongfully, albeit hopefully from your previous posts requesting parses, that you had formed your group to do just that: get a comparative heal parse. My mistake. I do find it incredibly difficult to understand, however, with all the bantering of semantics thats goes on about these boards, some of which I have been accused of - rightfully so, but with cause, how one could ask for hard parses repeatedly to diminish posts by legitimate players with the combined experience of <EM>years</EM> more experience than you hold in this game, beta or not, and then say it is like, when called on his own about proc rates...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>"lucky socks."</P> <P> </P> <P>/boggle</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P></P>