I don't know what to think. (test update on 10/18)

[Jida]

With this test server update. Druids are buffed. <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=81#M81" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=81#M81</a> And the HOT are the same as the Templar reactives. I guess soe is bringing healing in line with other classes. Is anything the templar community as ask even being addressed? I don't know.. does anyone? For pete sakes, just let us know something. Im a very frustrated templar atm. took me 2 weeks to level from 53 to 54 and hours online and in groups. I don't expect the rest of the levels to be easy, but geesh. im just a sad panda. Elder, <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jida on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

Everything they addressed has to do with heals.  Do you have a serious concern with our heals (other than the nerfed reactives)?

[dwor]

<DIV>Hahahahahahahaha.  So glad I canceled my account Hahahahahahahahaha</DIV>

[Dreit]

<P><FONT color=#66ff00>My thoughts exactly. If these changes go live, I really do not see an advantage of playing a cleric(templar or inquis). Besides sitting in a mellee dps grp with GoC cast on 4-5 members, we offer less to a grp/raid than any other healing class.</FONT></P>

[Lydiae]

<P>I think the point is they upgraded druid and shaman specialty heals to equal clerics'.  With our lack of desirable utility for groups, (real or percieved, and perception of others is as good as reality) why would any group want us if there is another priest class available?  Seems we've been relegated to third string.  </P> <P>I'm not an SOE hater or a chronic complainer, and I haven't really had issues with the "nerfs" to our healing, but in all honesty I'm not sure what to think either.</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreiton wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>My thoughts exactly. If these changes go live, I really do not see an advantage of playing a cleric(templar or inquis). Besides sitting in a mellee dps grp with GoC cast on 4-5 members, we offer less to a grp/raid than any other healing class.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I won't argue raid with you because that is a whole different beast.   But a group?  Honestly you sit around and just cast GoC on everyone and thats it? </DIV>

[Curati]

<P>the more i listen to you all rant and cry the more i feel like i am playing a different class!</P> <P> </P> <P>Seriously, do you expect to be able to keep  your group alive 100% hell im happy if i can keep my group alive 70% hehe</P> <P>so far the only templar complaint i have is the slow recovery times on instant heals</P>

[Gcha]

<DIV>Have to admit, this could be the deal-breaker.  Druids are now officially the most desirable healers, since, obviously, our reactives don't heal "per tick" (as SOE seems to think) while regens do.  Thus, since regen continues healing when someone is not being attacked, it is now considerably more valuable than reactives.  And thus druids don't heal equally to clerics now ... they heal more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have to do some serious thinking now ...</DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Sigh, so now Druids are the superior healer, have more dps than all priests and many fighters.</P> <P>Whats the point in playing a Cleric now, whats the point in many classes now Druids have been made so good at so much.</P>

[Dreit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dreiton wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>My thoughts exactly. If these changes go live, I really do not see an advantage of playing a cleric(templar or inquis). Besides sitting in a mellee dps grp with GoC cast on 4-5 members, we offer less to a grp/raid than any other healing class.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I won't argue raid with you because that is a whole different beast.   But a group?  Honestly you sit around and just cast GoC on everyone and thats it? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>No, I don't just "sit". It's a reference used to mean, in a raid, a templar will have one use. Be in the melee dps grp with GoC cast on all of the melee dps. Since our hps buffs are really only good for the Mt, they go wasted out of the MT grp. So, you end up forgoing most of your buffs and just put GoC on all of the melee in your grp. This way they can proc the grp heal, which the druid grp regen will match, since it procs every tick. Where as GoC is subject to randomness.</FONT></DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>No point in a Templar casting GoC on all the melee dps. For what, so they can all heal each other?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors go in the melee dps group for the mad haste.</DIV>

[Dreit]

<FONT color=#66ff00>Gchang and AzraelAzgard hit the nail on the head. It's not that other healing classes are bad. It just that the entire druid class is going to be overpowered with this change. There was a reason their regen ticked far less than reactives. Even with the regen amount being far beneath reactive,(per tick vs per hit) they overall healed equally in <STRONG><U><EM>most</EM></U></STRONG> situations.</FONT>

[Jida]

<span>Exactly what i was thinking.. Just was a bit miffed and would like something.. anything said from anyone who can make a difference to reply and at least say "hey, were taking a look on evening out the other stuff too". Thats all i want .. is recognition that there are more problems than just healing. I am happy that the druids are as good or better healers than templars.. good for them.. but for the love of god, even out the rest of the stuff.<blockquote><hr>Lydiaele wrote:<p>I think the point is they upgraded druid and shaman specialty heals to equal clerics'.  With our lack of desirable utility for groups, (real or percieved, and perception of others is as good as reality) why would any group want us if there is another priest class available?  Seems we've been relegated to third string. </p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Dreit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>No point in a Templar casting GoC on all the melee dps. For what, so they can all heal each other?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors go in the melee dps group for the mad haste.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's actually pretty effective in situations. No mana grp heals. That way you can focus healing the MT and GoC will keep the grp up most of the time without you having to cast a grp heal when an AE's go off. When spam healing the MT, you have lil time/power to waste of healing dps. This is a great way to allow you to not worry about grp members as much.

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Inquisitor is always the superior choice for a melee dps group, haste is much better, and an Inq can keep their group up fine, allthough now a Druid would be better with 300 group healing every 2 sec <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Dreit]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR><SPAN>Exactly what i was thinking.. Just was a bit miffed and would like something.. anything said from anyone who can make a difference to reply and at least say "hey, were taking a look on evening out the other stuff too".<BR><BR>Thats all i want .. is recognition that there are more problems than just healing. I am happy that the druids are as good or better healers than templars.. good for them.. but for the love of god, even out the rest of the stuff.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lydiaele wrote:<BR> <P>I think the point is they upgraded druid and shaman specialty heals to equal clerics'.  With our lack of desirable utility for groups, (real or percieved, and perception of others is as good as reality) why would any group want us if there is another priest class available?  Seems we've been relegated to third string.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>Very well said...</FONT></DIV>

[dwor]

Well I  was thinking that maybe templars should all go on strike , but if this goes live  no one will really care.

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dreiton wrote:<font color="#66ff00">Gchang and AzraelAzgard hit the nail on the head. It's not that other healing classes are bad. It just that the entire druid class is going to be overpowered with this change. There was a reason their regen ticked far less than reactives. Even with the regen amount being far beneath reactive,(per tick vs per hit) they overall healed equally in <strong><u><em>most</em></u></strong> situations.</font> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Are you seriously saying that wardens out heal templars right now?   Really?  I'd like to see those parses.  </span><div></div>

[Jida]

<span>I dont think over healing is the thing this person is saying. I think its effective healing For instance. A trap goes off from a chest. The group is hit for 2k damage (50+ Group). Heals over time will heal the group, reactives wont. Also, if a mob has an AOE, Reactives will heal the group 1x for each AOE.. generally the AOE is > than the Reactive heal amount. THerefore a HOT will heal the group near full or full in a situation like this. I'm not discounting the power of reactives and they are really really great. But with SOE evening out the healing playing field. Whats next?<blockquote><hr>Morie wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Dreiton wrote:<font color="#66ff00">Gchang and AzraelAzgard hit the nail on the head. It's not that other healing classes are bad. It just that the entire druid class is going to be overpowered with this change. There was a reason their regen ticked far less than reactives. Even with the regen amount being far beneath reactive,(per tick vs per hit) they overall healed equally in <strong><u><em>most</em></u></strong> situations.</font> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Are you seriously saying that wardens out heal templars right now?   Really?  I'd like to see those parses.  </span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Gcha]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 AM</span>

[Dreit]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 AM</span>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jida wrote:<span> For instance. A trap goes off from a chest. The group is hit for 2k damage (50+ Group). Heals over time will heal the group, reactives wont. <font color="#ffccff"> </font><font color="#ffccff">Ok.  I'll give you that.  Wardens heal better against chests.  Are you seriously worried about this?  </font> Also, if a mob has an AOE, Reactives will heal the group 1x for each AOE.. generally the AOE is > than the Reactive heal amount. THerefore a HOT will heal the group near full or full in a situation like this. <font color="#ffccff">What mob hits for one AoE?  Reactives as they are today heal better in most situations.  And especially if get an add.  Furthermore you can recast your reactive in half the time it takes for our regen to do it's job.  That's an incredible amount of healing.</font><font color="#ffccff"> </font> I'm not discounting the power of reactives and they are really really great. But with SOE evening out the healing playing field. Whats next? <font color="#ffccff">Well, if the playing field were really, actually level, then maybe they'd have time to fix bugs?</font><font color="#ffccff"> </font> </span></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gchang wrote:<p>Reading is a valuable skill.</p> <p>What he said was that NOW they heal equally in most situations.  With this update, druid healing will be superior.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I stand corrected.  I'd still like to see the parse where wardens and templars are healing for the same amount.  From a real fight.  Preferably 50+ so that we can duplicate the same results. </span><div></div>

[Elspooky_SOE]

<P>One definitely positive thing... the powers-that-be are stepping in and <EM><FONT color=#ff0066>increasing</FONT></EM> the effectiveness of some classes instead of decreasing others in an effort to level the perceived playing field.  And that's a good thing, yes?</P> <P>Regarding reactives, one advantage of the group reactive is that it still applies to the target getting hit -- that might be the whole group, or it might be the tank (in which case all "charges" go into the tank).  A group regen still applies across the whole group regardless of who's getting hit.  There are advantages for the group regen in some situations [entire group taking damage], advantages for the group reactive in others [tank taking damage].  That's the way I see it anyway.  I use single and group reactives in pretty much every group encounter regardless of who's in the group.</P> <P>I must admit I was a bit surprised at seeing the patch notes; on the surface, it seems like a pretty big boost to some classes.  I'm hoping that <EM>if</EM> there is a rough parity in healing then they'll address the utility issue.  SOE stated recently that a Templar's healing abilities <EM>are</EM> their utility; if all healing classes are on rough parity, then perhaps there's something else for us on the horizon.  I'd love a 1K nuke <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> - All Druid group specialty regeneration spell lines now regenerate as much health per tick as a Cleric group reactive heal. The total amount of ticks granted by the spell was reduced by 1, but the overall amount healed is much greater. The range of the spell effect was increased to 25 meters to match that of other group specialty heals.<BR>   - Druid: Winds of Renewal<BR>   - Warden: Blessing of the Earth<BR>   - Fury: Ram's Growth<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok, everyone read that right there.   Now...Our group reactive has 9 charges to it...it can spread out thru the group, or go thru one person....very nice.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To my knowledge...the druid group regen ticked across the whole group simultaneously.   So if it's ticking for the same amount ours does each tick...but multiple ticks...doesn't that mean there group heal does a lot more HP then ours?     Ours has 9 charges...so that means 1 tick across the whole group, and then one tick across half the group again, in a 6 man group.     How are they balancing this?    I think my group reactive can tick for mid 350's right now as I have fateful intersession adept 3.     Will the druids tick for 300's also? and multiple times?    Tell me I"m missing something....because this sounds like SUPER powerful druid group regen.</DIV>

[semir]

as a new-to-the-scene templar i was feeling kinda 'blah' about having druids put in line with Temps healing abilities but when I got to your "wardens v. chests" comment I about choked on my drink and spit all over my computer.  thank god it's my work computer, not the one i play on at home!!! anyway, was a great comment and even if i'm a bit uneasy about the state of things, twas funny enough to make me forget about it for just a while. <div></div>

[Naithik]

<DIV>Just so I don't say anything stupid, I'll go see how many ticks my group regen has and edit this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i think it ticks 3 times. So yes, we heal more overal if everyone is hurt. But your group reactive can heal a single person a lot more, letting you heal a MT better than us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it just gives us different types of healing. Your group heal is better at keeping a single person alive (sounds weird but eh <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and warden's is better at healing the whole group. Both have their utility, especially in a raid situation, when the MT is taking huge amounts of damage. You'll want him to be healed a lot more than the others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit : it's 6 times. With the update it will be 5. You can still use it to heal the MT twice as much, and only when needed (aka no wasted ticks)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Naithik on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:07 PM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just so I don't say anything stupid, I'll go see how many ticks my group regen has and edit this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i think it ticks 3 times. So yes, we heal more overal if everyone is hurt. But your group reactive can heal a single person a lot more, letting you heal a MT better than us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it just gives us different types of healing. Your group heal is better at keeping a single person alive (sounds weird but eh <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and warden's is better at healing the whole group. Both have their utility, especially in a raid situation, when the MT is taking huge amounts of damage. You'll want him to be healed a lot more than the others.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>yeah let us know how many times it ticks.  I'm interested to find out.   Since they reduced it by one.   Sounds like no change to power cost, so that would be interesting to find out also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I definately understand the benefit of reactives handling burst damage better, and how a group reactive can all go out thru one person is very nice....I'm just curious if I'm paying 300 power for say 2700 hp and druids are paying 300 power for 4800hp.</DIV>

[Jida]

<P>This makes me feel a bit more easy.. But eh.. still feel like my candle is a bit dimmer on the birthday cake of healers.</P> <P>Guess its just perception. I never know how many ticks it worked for, but eh. <BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just so I don't say anything stupid, I'll go see how many ticks my group regen has and edit this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i think it ticks 3 times. So yes, we heal more overal if everyone is hurt. But your group reactive can heal a single person a lot more, letting you heal a MT better than us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it just gives us different types of healing. Your group heal is better at keeping a single person alive (sounds weird but eh <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and warden's is better at healing the whole group. Both have their utility, especially in a raid situation, when the MT is taking huge amounts of damage. You'll want him to be healed a lot more than the others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit : it's 6 times. With the update it will be 5. You can still use it to heal the MT twice as much, and only when needed (aka no wasted ticks)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Naithik on <SPAN class=date_text>10-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Sinnester]

<P>I'm just praying it doesn't go live.</P> <P>If it does, just shelf the templar class.</P>

[Jida]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>For instance. A trap goes off from a chest. The group is hit for 2k damage (50+ Group). Heals over time will heal the group, reactives wont.<BR><FONT color=#ffccff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffccff>Ok.  I'll give you that.  Wardens heal better against chests.  Are you seriously worried about this?  </FONT><BR><BR><BR>Also, if a mob has an AOE, Reactives will heal the group 1x for each AOE.. generally the AOE is > than the Reactive heal amount. THerefore a HOT will heal the group near full or full in a situation like this.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffccff>What mob hits for one AoE?  Reactives as they are today heal better in most situations.  And especially if get an add.  Furthermore you can recast your reactive in half the time it takes for our regen to do it's job.  That's an incredible amount of healing.</FONT><FONT color=#ffccff><BR></FONT><BR>I'm not discounting the power of reactives and they are really really great. But with SOE evening out the healing playing field. <BR><BR>Whats next?<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffccff>Well, if the playing field were really, actually level, then maybe they'd have time to fix bugs?</FONT><FONT color=#ffccff><BR></FONT><BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Dont know how to respond to this one. dont play a warden so i dont have any specific comments on recast times and such.. those 2 instances are very specific. I was just giving some instances where HOT's are superior than reactives. but i do know reactives are better in other instances. I guess i gotta have a friend show me how his druid (what ever subclass it is) plays so i have a better understanding of anothers plight ingame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main reason for this post is to have someone (developer or such) say that their going to level out the dps/utility/usefulness of the healers, heck i dont mind if its months from now as long as i know its goign to be looked at (or is being looked at). I dont know exactly how evening the classes is supposed to play out. And i am stating it in a general sense for all the healers, not just templars.</DIV> <DIV><BR>I show love for all my Healing brethren. </DIV> <DIV>I can only speak for the one i play and the preceptions i have upon my play style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Elder</DIV>

[Jida]

<P>well.. I guess i got my answer. In the wardens board's no less.</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=10272#M10272" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=10272#M10272</A></P> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=72348" target=_blank><SPAN>Lockeye</SPAN></A> wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Constructive feedback is always welcome (and helpful) and I thank those that post consolidated threads that stick to the issues without negativity<STRIKE><STRONG>...(Other stuff edited out)...</STRONG> </STRIKE>Like I said before, I’m here to ensure that the combat system is balanced and working properly, and I make adjustments as needed.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Supernova17]

Templar reactives don't tick, where did this come from? They react to damage and fire the heal, hence reactives. The Clerics have a strength that NO Druid or Shaman can match and I cannot believe it wasn't mentioned. When everything hits the fan, the Cleric can dump his enitre healing load instantly before a Druid regen can tick or a Shaman can spam heals. Now these are my opinions: Templar reactives are better than Shaman wards in the case that our special heals do just that, heal. I understand the concept, but I've never liked wards. Templar reactives are better then Druid regens in the sense that they do not tick. They are triggered by damage. We can handle damage spam on the MT far better by chain casting reactives. Group reactives react to AoE damage and instantly replenish health while you have to wait for a regen. I'm not patient. I believe Templars have the most heling spell lines as well, so no, I don't think we'll take a backseat. Single Reactive Group Reactive Special Large Single Reactive (Focused Benefaction) Single Large Heal Single Small Heal Group Heal PC Heal Proc (Glory of Combat) NPC Heal Proc + Trauma Cure (Involuntary) NPC Heal Proc (Mark) Small Damage Absorbtion (Benediction line, at Adept 1 6% chance to cast Divine Shield and absorb all attacks for 10 seconds I think it goes) Divine Arbitrition (taking the total group HP and instantly equalizing it among the group) We have a ton of healing spells and healing support utility, I fail to see how we will be relegated to the backseat... Priests are different, our heals are situational and each have their strengths and weaknesses. I like to think that Druids are good in long and drawn out fights while Clerics are better in rapid damage fast paced fights. /end opinion <div></div>

[Jida]

Great explanation. One thing, Im not really talking about heals. SO, if the post was derailed about that i apologize. My main consern is the other things i would like seen brought to the table. Mainly (*actually my only gripe*) is dps. Soloing is easy but patheticly slow compared to another healing class. So, in my mind, all healers will eventually be able to keep ourselfs alive in solo situations and groups alive, after thats corrected, will we dps the same? <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Templar reactives don't tick, where did this come from? They react to damage and fire the heal, hence reactives.<BR><BR>The Clerics have a strength that NO Druid or Shaman can match and I cannot believe it wasn't mentioned. When everything hits the fan, the Cleric can dump his enitre healing load instantly before a Druid regen can tick or a Shaman can spam heals.<BR><BR>Now these are my opinions:<BR><BR>Templar reactives are better than Shaman wards in the case that our special heals do just that, heal. I understand the concept, but I've never liked wards.<BR>Templar reactives are better then Druid regens in the sense that they do not tick. They are triggered by damage. We can handle damage spam on the MT far better by chain casting reactives. Group reactives react to AoE damage and instantly replenish health while you have to wait for a regen. I'm not patient. <BR><BR>I believe Templars have the most heling spell lines as well, so no, I don't think we'll take a backseat.<BR><BR>Single Reactive<BR>Group Reactive<BR>Special Large Single Reactive (Focused Benefaction)<BR>Single Large Heal<BR>Single Small Heal<BR>Group Heal<BR>PC Heal Proc (Glory of Combat)<BR>NPC Heal Proc + Trauma Cure (Involuntary)<BR>NPC Heal Proc (Mark)<BR>Small Damage Absorbtion (Benediction line, at Adept 1 6% chance to cast Divine Shield and absorb all attacks for 10 seconds I think it goes)<BR>Divine Arbitrition (taking the total group HP and instantly equalizing it among the group)<BR><BR>We have a ton of healing spells and healing support utility, I fail to see how we will be relegated to the backseat...<BR><BR>Priests are different, our heals are situational and each have their strengths and weaknesses. I like to think that Druids are good in long and drawn out fights while Clerics are better in rapid damage fast paced fights.<BR><BR>/end opinion<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Tarn]

<P>I can only assume that since no changes were made to the Templar's ability to heal, that everything is fine with the class :smileytongue:.</P> <P> </P> <P>/toggle off sarcasm</P> <P> </P> <P>Tarneq Spirit-Reaper</P> <P>54 Templar</P> <P>Guk</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Tarneq on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:46 PM</span>

[Takeo1]

<P> I have to give Supernova17 the nod on this one.</P> <P> </P> <P>The ability of Templar RH to fire to incoming damage only still sets them in line with other priests. I have said before, and maintain, that we are no longer, post LU13, the only healer in town. I do not believe that this will send any Templar back to the shelf, unless that player so desires. The sheer burst healing of the Templar is our specialty.  This new update on Test will not interfere in any way with our ability to do so or set another class above us in our ability to do so.</P> <P> </P> <P>One example, although some may want numbers, they will not get them from me. Common sense is as good as facts to me. </P> <P> </P> <P>In the case that the tanker is taking heavy burst damage, the Templar has the ability to GRH + SRH. If this is not enough, with the Mark/Curate/GoC lines already in place, then DH supplements may suffice. If this is still not enough, then I have found that landing GRH + FB will maintain a tanker long enough for the fight to be ended, ASSUMING a reasonably challenging encounter and perhaps a bit worse post LU13. In these cases, a Druid will not be able to maintain the tank without solid DH supplements because they will be relying on timed heals, heals that do not respond directly to incoming damage. If the total incoming damage exceeds any HoT in a given tick vast amounts of health can be lost BEFORE the next tick arrives to bounce that tankers hit points up again. In their favour, however, particularly the Fury Class, an increase in burst DPS may offset this drawback. In this case, again it falls back on the skill of the player. </P> <P> </P> <P>I have had the pleasure of grouping with a few good players of the Druid Classes. By their own words they speak volumes about the ability of the Templar class to maintain tankers against incoming damage that is well beyond their reach without the heal or dps supplements I referred to earlier. I always have responded the same - the Templar Class has many healing tools.</P> <P> </P> <P>As always, for me, my strongest complaint is DH Spell Timers, the power of those heal utilities, in particular the Mark/Curate line, and stacking issues in raids. I have no worry that any Druid will take my place on a roster. If they can - its isnt going to be because they have a better spell than I do. It is going to be because they are better players.</P> <P> </P> <P>And there are a few of those out there on AB. Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<P>As a 54 Templar I can safely say I am no longer needed,</P> <P>Long live the Furies. I quit.</P>

[SnowKnight]

<P>This is starting to get upsetting. I looked through the patch notes, and could not see one change for templars. Meanwhile druids are getting their healing bumped up yet again. Are we getting a dps increase? Are we getting some usefull utility spells? No and no. Were still stuck soloing at a painfully slow rate, meanwhile I see furys nuking for over 1k, healing equally (not that I have a problem with this IF we get some kind of boost too) getting usefull utilitys (group invis anyone?) and generally being a better class of healer than currently we could ever hope to be.</P> <P>Oh but I forget, we can debuff mit, and have some crappy proc heals going. Woohoo 30 points for 4 ticks is gonna help a lot when your getting aoed for 2k plus. GoC is nice but you cant depend on it to heal when you need it to. Never once had Involuntary curate proc. And with most of these "utilitys" by the time you cast even one the mob is dead.</P> <P>Anyway enough ranting my point is this :</P> <P>I dont care about our healing its fine atm, but our dps and utility leave a LOT to be desired. Flame on (especially all of you druids).</P>

[Fildren_the_Templ]

<div></div>Imo, the problem is not that druid heal like us ( well maybe better now)... if all healers should heal equally  it's ok.. But, why the hell do they heal like a templar and have more utility ?? Templar can't evac, invis, out damage other healers, sow... Ok we can pacify.. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Fildren_the_Templar on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 AM</span>

[lmhotep]

<P>Funny how you keep saying we can heal equaly as a templar class.</P> <P>It has been stated numerous times: we only heal over time wich sucks compared to reactives.</P> <P>If im in the MT group just by myself i need to keep chaincasting heals to keep the MT out of the red and most of the times its just to much for me to keep up with (all adept3 spells offcourse).</P> <P>When our guildtemplar joins that same group i almost dont need to heal anymore except for my heal over time and he can keep him in the green just by himself!</P> <P>In healing the templar class stil is the nr1 without questioning and sure we have some nice utility spells but for the love of god i want your cobalt armor so i wont get whiped within seconds!</P> <DIV>Templars are the sturdy healers wich can take a nice punch and for healing is the NR1</DIV> <DIV>Fury`s do some damage and can heal reasonably but wil always be outhealed by templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think different i suggest to start a raid and group up with a fury so you can see with your own eyes as i believe most of you havent even looked into it themselves.</DIV>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lmhotep wrote:<BR> <P>Funny how you keep saying we can heal equaly as a templar class.</P> <P>It has been stated numerous times: we only heal over time wich sucks compared to reactives.</P> <P>If im in the MT group just by myself i need to keep chaincasting heals to keep the MT out of the red and most of the times its just to much for me to keep up with (all adept3 spells offcourse).</P> <P>When our guildtemplar joins that same group i almost dont need to heal anymore except for my heal over time and he can keep him in the green just by himself!</P> <P>In healing the templar class stil is the nr1 without questioning and sure we have some nice utility spells but for the love of god i want your cobalt armor so i wont get whiped within seconds!</P> <DIV>Templars are the sturdy healers wich can take a nice punch and for healing is the NR1</DIV> <DIV>Fury`s do some damage and can heal reasonably but wil always be outhealed by templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think different i suggest to start a raid and group up with a fury so you can see with your own eyes as i believe most of you havent even looked into it themselves.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't think templars doubt there healing ability, and druid healing ability at this time is irrelevant giving the dramatic changes coming.  Nothing a druid tells me about there healing ability matters to me at this moment until I see how well the heal with the changes posted on test.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I'm sure most people agree the reactive can be a superior healing style more often then not, I think some people are getting at the fact that druid healing power is increasing greatly, by what we read.    And while it's understandable that wardens needed these changes badly, I wasn't aware of fury's having problems keeping there groups alive.  At least not in my guild.  Only our wardens had trouble.    Now, with an increase in healing the fury receive, while still maintaing there massive DPS, (which with easier healing they will be able to do DPS a bit more while healing) people are concerned of an imbalance in the priest class.    Since SOE only seems to be paying attention to healing, and not paying any care to any of the other factors of the priest class.     Which in fighter terms would be like only paying attention to how well they all taunt and ignore everything else.    It's not balancing.    And before this increase in healing, i could find justification in Fury DPS because I saw there healing as being less.....but now they may be just too powerful.     </DIV>

[Supernova17]

Sorry, I know I am a powerful healer, but everyone else seems to think Templars should have more powerful heals, more powerful dps and more powerful tanking ability than any other Priests. Talk about selfish... The recent changes to Shamans and Druids are an attempt to bring them up to our healing capacity, but for the most part, the sheer number of our healing utility and spam damage control will keep us above them in most fights. /sarcasm Also I would like to point out this fact: You play a Templar, you don't know our strengths and you think you know our weaknesses. You don't play a Druid / Shaman, you think you know their strengths and you are oblivious to their problems. Am I the only one who sees something wrong here??? /end sracasm <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>personally I think it's good that druids will heal better, it should bring a better balance to healing between the classes.    What they need to do is examine DPS again though,  should templars be so low?  Should fury's be so high?  and what about all the other priest that are in the middle of the DPS range?    Given the closer balance in healing, i can't see how these questions shouldn't be raised.</DIV>

[cadrach]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Sorry, I know I am a powerful healer, but everyone else seems to think Templars should have more powerful heals, more powerful dps and more powerful tanking ability than any other Priests. Talk about selfish...<BR><BR>The recent changes to Shamans and Druids are an attempt to bring them up to our healing capacity, but for the most part, the sheer number of our healing utility and spam damage control will keep us above them in most fights.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.<BR></DIV>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>cadrach wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</div> <div> </div> <div>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.</div><hr></blockquote>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids! </span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If all healers heal equally, then all healers should dps the same, and have the same utility. This is what balance is.

[cadrach]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Supernova17 wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!<BR><BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Seriously did you even read my post?  Make us heal the same make us do the same DPS.  How hard of a concept is this. <BR>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>cadrach wrote: <div>Make us heal the same make us do the same DPS.  How hard of a concept is this.  </div><div></div><hr></blockquote>I rest my case. You have done far more damage to yourself than I ever could have...</span><div></div>

[dwor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So your saying you want to be able to Heal like a cleric but expect to DPS better than them. How is this fair for the Clerics!</DIV>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I cant see him saying that anywhere.

[cdotthom]

ok - I did not hear anyone say that we need to nurf other classes - just dont leave the Templars behind....yes we have nice heals but the refresh rate allows the tank to die before our heal becomes ready to use again.  Fix the refresh please so that our tank does not die while we wait for a stupid button to refresh (frustration).  Also I don't solo because although I can survive an encounter - it can take 15-20 min to kill something if I can regen my power sufficiently.  As for remaining a Templar ... I will stay to see what happens.  Surely SOE doesn't want the Templar to be extinct, because if you look at the signs we are a dieing breed.  Stick with it guys and send lots of feedback to SOE and see what happens Onamos, 60 Templar Dominion Toxxulia <div></div>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>SnowKnight wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Supernova17 wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> cadrach wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  <b><font color="#ff0000">Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.</font></b>  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</div> <div> </div> <div>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.</div> <hr> </blockquote>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I cant see him saying that anywhere. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Right there. His next sentence about not asking for more dps than a particualr class is like another priest class asking for increased healing but not more healing than a particular class. It just feels like an Oxymoron to me. For balance, if you increase our dps, you have to tone down healing and we'd never hear the end of a new * healing nerf *</span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

It seems to me hes asking for equal amounts of healing and dps for both classes. No where can I see him asking to heal and dps better. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Yep definatly not asking to dps and heal better than others. Please stop trolling now.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></STRONG> </DIV><p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:25 AM</span>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  <B><FONT color=#ff0000>Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.</FONT></B>  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I cant see him saying that anywhere. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Right there. His next sentence about not asking for more dps than a particualr class is like another priest class asking for increased healing but not more healing than a particular class. It just feels like an Oxymoron to me. <BR><BR>For balance, if you increase our dps, you have to tone down healing and we'd never hear the end of a new * healing nerf *<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Obviously, he ISN'T saying what you claim. Stop building strawmen to attack.  He is clearly talking about EQUALITY.  You folks talk about equality constantly .... er, except, you only talk about one aspect of it - healing.  Fine, is we simply must have this idiotic game-ruining equality, then provide it in all areas - healing, DPS, and utility.</P> <P>How difficult is it to understand the concept that if you are going to equalize healing you must also equalize DPS.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gchang on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 AM</span>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.  You are FOR balance as long as it is NOT balanced?  <B><FONT color=#ff0000>Sure bring them in line with us healing wise, but then bring us in line with their DPS.</FONT></B>  I am not asking for MORE DPS but in line with the other healing classes.  I think this can not be stated enough.  If they want balance they can not just look at healing, though they most likely will because there are enough Templars saying we are fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.   I solo fine, but they do it better.  If things are supposed to be balanced then make it so.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So you're saying you want to be able to DPS like a Druid but expect to heal better than them. How balanced for the Druids!<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I cant see him saying that anywhere. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Right there. His next sentence about not asking for more dps than a particualr class is like another priest class asking for increased healing but not more healing than a particular class. It just feels like an Oxymoron to me. <BR><BR>For balance, if you increase our dps, you have to tone down healing and we'd never hear the end of a new * healing nerf *<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Obviously, he ISN'T saying what you claim. Stop building strawmen to attack.  He is clearly talking about EQUALITY.  You folks talk about equality constantly .... er, except, you only talk about one aspect of it - healing.  Fine, is we simply must have this idiotic game-ruining equality, then provide it in all areas - healing, DPS, and utility.</P> <P>How difficult is it to understand the concept that if you are going to equalize healing you must also equalize DPS.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gchang on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well said.

[ADW123]

<P>Now that we are even/weaker that druids, how about they provide us with some useful utility. With the exception of the fate/goc lines we have nothing worthwhile whatsoever. As far as our dps, I don't see why people want more...its seems more of an envy thing than anything else. I picked a templar class to heal and group, not to solo and do damage. I would much rather prefer improvements to our grouping ability then to soloing, which is unbelieveably boring with a priest. If I want to solo, I can log up my ranger for that. </P> <P>The class system is the biggest problem of this entire game. Thinking they could balance 6 priests to have equal healing/dps/utility across solo/group/raid is absolutely insane and they will never find a middle ground that will work correctly. I really wish they had just decided on a single healing class and they would've made all these problems go away.</P> <P>Curaga<BR>52 Templar<BR>Unrest</P>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr> <p>How difficult is it to understand the concept that if you are going to equalize healing you must also equalize DPS. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Very hard. Why do we have classes if you want equalized healing and dps? You balance healing against dps, not make them equal. Don't call me a troll for arguing with you when you de-railed a thread to begin with. </span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <P>How difficult is it to understand the concept that if you are going to equalize healing you must also equalize DPS.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Very hard. <BR><BR>Why do we have classes if you want equalized healing and dps? You balance healing against dps, not make them equal. <BR><BR>Don't call me a troll for arguing with you when you de-railed a thread to begin with. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Im calling you troll for taking someones post then claiming it said something which it clearly didnt and using it as a basis for an argument.

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ADW123 wrote:<BR> <P>Now that we are even/weaker that druids, how about they provide us with some useful utility. With the exception of the fate/goc lines we have nothing worthwhile whatsoever. As far as our dps, I don't see why people want more...its seems more of an envy thing than anything else. I picked a templar class to heal and group, not to solo and do damage. I would much rather prefer improvements to our grouping ability then to soloing, which is unbelieveably boring with a priest. If I want to solo, I can log up my ranger for that. </P> <P>The class system is the biggest problem of this entire game. Thinking they could balance 6 priests to have equal healing/dps/utility across solo/group/raid is absolutely insane and they will never find a middle ground that will work correctly. I really wish they had just decided on a single healing class and they would've made all these problems go away.</P> <P>Curaga<BR>52 Templar<BR>Unrest</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Excellent post, and I agree.  I don't really want more DPS.  I signed up to be a healer and the cleric should simply be a bit better as a healer.  It's fine to give druids a little less healing but a bit more DPS and utility.  Not only is it fine, it makes for a good game.  Let people choose whether they want to be a druid or a cleric ... it's nice to have choices.   If we're all supposed to be the same, then just make one priest class and be done with this.  It will NEVER be possible to balance 6 priest classes.</DIV>

[cadrach]

<P><SPAN>Wow Supernova, you have me baffled.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I clearly, as you pointed out yourself many times over, asked for equal healing for all classes and equal DPS for all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But somehow you see this as a bad thing.<SPAN>  </SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>So I guess you answered my original post.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Your for balance as long as it stays inbalanced.<SPAN>  </SPAN>At least we know where you stand.</SPAN></P>

[ADW123]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Supernova17 wrote <P><SPAN>Very hard.<BR><BR>Why do we have classes if you want equalized healing and dps? You balance healing against dps, not make them equal.<BR><BR>Don't call me a troll for arguing with you when you de-railed a thread to begin with.<BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Clearly then if the druids have increased dps we should have increase healing capacity? This makes sense does it not? or does the fact that they said in the beginning that all priests are supposed to "heal equally" overwrite all other reasoning in this equation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Curaga</DIV> <DIV>52 Templar</DIV> <DIV>Unrest<BR></DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <P>How difficult is it to understand the concept that if you are going to equalize healing you must also equalize DPS.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Very hard. <BR><BR>Why do we have classes if you want equalized healing and dps? You balance healing against dps, not make them equal. <BR><BR>Don't call me a troll for arguing with you when you de-railed a thread to begin with. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm sorry, but you have to pick one horse and ride it.  You talk about equality incessantly and then when you finally figure out that there isn't any, now you don't want to talk about equality.</P> <P>I didn't derail any thread ...  just responding to your efforts to do so and your distortions of what others are saying.</P>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>Why do we have classes if you want equalized healing and dps? You balance healing against dps, not make them equal. <BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But thats not what soe wants to do at all. "All healers now heal equally" is the new slogan. So therefore by the same token all healers should DPS the same, and have the same utility. This is what balance is.</DIV>

[Supernova17]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>cadrach wrote:<div></div><p><span>Wow Supernova, you have me baffled.<span>  </span>I clearly, as you pointed out yourself many times over, asked for equal healing for all classes and equal DPS for all classes.<span>  </span>But somehow you see this as a bad thing.<span></span></span></p><hr><p><span><span></span></span></p><div></div></blockquote>Is there a point to having different classes with your thinking?</span><div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN>Wow Supernova, you have me baffled.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I clearly, as you pointed out yourself many times over, asked for equal healing for all classes and equal DPS for all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But somehow you see this as a bad thing.<SPAN><BR><BR></SPAN></SPAN></P> <HR> <P><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></P> </BLOCKQUOTE>Is there a point to having different classes with your thinking?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thats something you might want to ask SOE. After all its their grand vision that all healers should heal equally.</DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <P><SPAN>Wow Supernova, you have me baffled.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I clearly, as you pointed out yourself many times over, asked for equal healing for all classes and equal DPS for all classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But somehow you see this as a bad thing.<SPAN><BR><BR></SPAN></SPAN></P> <HR> <P><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></P> </BLOCKQUOTE>Is there a point to having different classes with your thinking?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>For a change, you're right.  There SHOULD be a reason for different classes.  And the reason should be: UNEQUAL healing, UNEQUAL DPS, and UNEQUAL utility.  People who get more of one should get less of another.  Then, people pick the mix they like.  Unfortunately, in response to the army of posters roaming around promoting "equality" (until today, anyway, lol), SOE doesn't seem to buy into this.</DIV>

[NosmokIng]

they want equal healing.. well make the rest equal.. or maybe its just equal one way... Hmmm where have I heard this equal thing before.. hmmmm masterrace.. all equal.. hmmmmm, well we're not like that, we have have different styles and want different things and play for different reasons.. and Templers want to be the pure zealot priest class.. now we're an the bottom end of average. <div></div>

[Skydude]

<DIV>While I agree that I'm still playing one of the best healing classes, I have to disagree with you Descartin on a couple notes. You may as well take all healing classes out of the game and introduce a single class. There were wardens and mystics that rock in the past and still do. Anyone raiding and stacking templars only, is a fool. Templars, since this wacky upgrade with no forethought, have only been taken from and given nothing. Yes we were uber healing gods and it should have been addressed long before they broke ground on DoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anytime an MMORPG is introduced, people have to expect changes in the future to their class. To allow clients to start a toon with the specific purpose of being a healer only and then to find the other sub-classes are becoming comparable is absolutely the most stupid thing Sony has done yet. Templars on every server far outnumber the other healing classes. So technically they by all means imrpessed upon us that Templars are pure healers, we have no other purpose other than to maybe help a crew do writs faster with our oddessy. All of the other classes spells are going to be comparable and surpass us given certain encounters. We've been in raids where reactives just don't kick in due to certain damage types so they basically nullify us there. Let me see you keep up with a Warden, Fury, or Mystics direct heals with our two big power hog heals on long timers when reactives are barely kicking in. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if they would like to adjust our heals from sharing the same timer, I'd be one happy Holy Toon. If they adjust DPS accordingly I'd be happy. But to state they are class balancing without even looking at our DPS or a new utility is just plain giving us the shaft. The problem here is, people start toons and have no idea what they've created until they get further into the game and realize, "Oh wait, maybe this class isn't the best" and then they come here to whine, beg, and chastise the DEVs to give them justice. What Sony fails to realize, they will be angering a far larger community if they persist in this nonsense. Classes should be different, you will never please them all, but to do the drastic changes and to basically substitute the Templar with classes that have far better utilities for group encounters, Evac, Group invis, SOW, power regen etc, etc. is an injustice to Templars. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know they sit back and gauge changes by watching people like you or I play Descartin. Not everyone can play with our skill level. So while I was taking out 4 lvl 54 coin guards solo at lvl 50, some DEV is in the background thinking omg we need to either nerf that or make other classes better. The worst part of this game, is the fact that they make uneducated changes by listening to the wrong people. I mean there are several Templars I have a lot of respect for on these boards that have made helpful suggestions yet it falls on blind eyes and deaf ears.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope a DEV sees this and will start to think about the long run. EA used to totally screw up with Earth and Beyond without ever addressing the community and Sony did it with SWG. All the game companies need to trust us being able to handle the truth and to discard and delete posts that are not constructive and that are malevolent in nature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>peace,</DIV> <DIV>Skydude aka Minowa</DIV> <DIV>Guildleader of Dominion on Oggok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[cadrach]

<P>Supernova you ask: Is there a point to having different classes with your thinking?</P> <P> </P> <P>No.  But that is kind of my point, and i assumed theirs as well.</P> <P>If you make us heal the same then make us damage the same.  It does not get more simple than this.  With this latest update they are "in line with" the other healing classes in regards to heals, but not DPS.   Maybe someone would like to prove me wrong...  They scream balance but not true ballance?  I dont know it seems like I am swimming up hill here.  </P> <P>Do we want balance across the board?  Or only balance with the heals?  They (SOE) seems to have always said that everyone would Heal the same across all the classes they would just have different spells to do so.  Why not the same for DPS then.  If not then why would I chooses Templar over any other class.  We heal the same as a Fury but they do twice the Damage output....hmmm let me see....</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by cadrach on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 AM</span>

[Supernova17]

Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball. I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid. I'm happy =D Make the voices stop!!!!!!!! <div></div>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball. I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid. <BR><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I can keep the group alive too. So can other healers, but they can also solo much faster than us, or double as dps if heavy healing isnt needed.<BR> <p>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 AM</span>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball. I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid. <BR><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You could easily cut the threads down by 20%  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And if you're happy, why not.

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball. I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid. <BR><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I can keep the group alive too. So can other healers, but they can also solo much faster than us, or double as dps if heavy healing isnt needed.<BR> <P>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can't remember ever thinking of a druid or shaman  "You know since you aren't 'heavy' healing how about  instead of debuffing  you drop a few of those really weak nukes you got over here."

[cadrach]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball.<STRONG> I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid. <BR></STRONG><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Supernova, I ask only one thing.  Take a deep breath and count to 10.  What I have been trying to get across is not a hard concept really it is not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A:</DIV> <DIV>Templar = Great healer</DIV> <DIV>Fury = Great healer</DIV> <DIV>Warden = Great healer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With me so far?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B:</DIV> <DIV>Templar = Horrible DPS</DIV> <DIV>Fury = Awesome DPS</DIV> <DIV>Warden = Pretty dang good DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok So if A is all equal then why not B.  It is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, but A is supposed to be equal correct?  It has been stated since the begining that all healers will heal the same just by different methods.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, then why not B</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me re-iterate here.  I love my class but if your going to go off and make everything equal in one catagorey then do it for all.  I can not say it any clearer than this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  Is this the way I wanted it to be?  No, but since they are working this way lets make it fair.<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by cadrach on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 AM</span>

[SnowKnight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball. I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid.<BR><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I can keep the group alive too. So can other healers, but they can also solo much faster than us, or double as dps if heavy healing isnt needed.<BR> <P>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:25 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can't remember ever thinking of a druid or shaman  "You know since you aren't 'heavy' healing how about  instead of debuffing  you drop a few of those really weak nukes you got over here." <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Id hardly call a 1k plus nuke weak. Ours do 300 or so damage at level 60.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Analviper]

<DIV>The issue of blanace has totally gone out of the window now. what SoE have done is after deciding yes templars should be the best healers.. they have gone and made wardens and furys heal for the same what is the point of a subclass if you are the same... what SoE need to do is </DIV> <DIV>a). more dps to templars even if its 100 per smite cos realistically it takes 5 mins and 50% mana to take something your own level down now</DIV> <DIV>b). UTILISE the HEAVY armor... i mean FFS we wear the same as tanks yet its pointless as we take 10x the damage per hit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jida]

<P><SPAN>So my thread has come to this.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>A community that doesn't understand SOE envisonment of what classes are supposed to be. I'm not saying everyone is lost, just some don't understand what's going behind the scenes.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>In my mind there are 3 things to balance in priest classes.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Utility</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Damage</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Healing</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Each has its own weight and has its own usefulness. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>In any healing class we all need the ability to keep our group alive against even mobs. This is a MINIMUM requirement. Some classes can do it better than other, Templar's IMO are still the best at this, HANDS DOWN (my opinion, u don't have to agree).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The other 2 areas become greyer as you level and throw other minor modifiers, equipment grade, spell grade, Mobs you're fighting, play style. And the higher you go, the more you will see this become skewed between players. Because honestly, no 2 players play the same, have the same spells, and have the same equipment. We all need to take this in account when viewing another player, VERY much so when viewing another class. Because if you're not their level in the same class, you really don't understand what their plight is. You don't understand the intricate differences between classes without playing them all.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The most complaining I see is that templar's are VERY unhappy that other classes (priest and non priest) all solo faster. I don't want to depend on someone to solo. I don't care about the efficiency of grouping with another. I just want to do solo encounters 5%-25% slower than the lowest priest class. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I think that someone should give us (the community) an accurate 3 tier placement of where each class is supposed to be at as far as the value of utility vs. dps vs. healing. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>So we all can see where our place is supposed to be and be happy that we are where we are supposed to be at.</SPAN></P> <P></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jida on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 PM</span>

[Analviper]

<DIV>Totally agree, all i want is the ability to solo which MOST (not every) classes have. at lv 52 im sure most people in DoF will agree for a templar to get 1% xp would take a minimum of 10 maybe 15 kills... not alot?? it IS when it takes 5-10 mins to kill anything!! thats bordering 1% and HOUR and thats not even taking into account the 30 seconds for your mana to recharge between fights. Yes we do still have the best heals in the game and i thank god for Intercession and reactive heals when im grouped. all id like to see its Templars be able to UTILISE their heavy armour and not take damage like a leather wearing classes and to deal more than 200 damage with an attack. it wouldnt unblance the class at all it would RESTORE balance that SoE have taken away from us</DIV><p>Message Edited by Analviper on <span class=date_text>10-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 PM</span>

[Nezze]

<P>In my opinion, there only are 2 ways to balance things.</P> <P>A. Make everyone the same.</P> <P>If you make druids heal as good as clerics, then make sure shamans can ward the same.  If everyone can deal with countering damage the same, then make sure all 3 can DPS the same and have the same utility.  If all 3 can heal equally, dps equally and have same utility, then make sure all 3 wear the same armor.  If all 3 classes are essentially the same, remove 2 and keep one to avoid confusion and dissapointment for thinking there is choice.  Final step is to simply call them priests or rename everyone to Drusharics.</P> <P>OR</P> <P>B. Balance Healing, utility, and dps by having 1 class be the best at one, but decent or crappy at the other 2.</P> <P>Example:</P> <P>Make  class X  be strongest healer, crappy dps, crappy utility</P> <P>Make  class Y be strongest dps,  decent healing, decent utility</P> <P>Make class Z be strongest utility, decent dps, decent healing</P> <P> </P>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cadrach wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball.<STRONG> I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid. <BR></STRONG><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Supernova, I ask only one thing.  Take a deep breath and count to 10.  What I have been trying to get across is not a hard concept really it is not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A:</DIV> <DIV>Templar = Great healer</DIV> <DIV>Fury = Great healer</DIV> <DIV>Warden = Great healer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With me so far?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B:</DIV> <DIV>Templar = Horrible DPS</DIV> <DIV>Fury = Awesome DPS</DIV> <DIV>Warden = Pretty dang good DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok So if A is all equal then why not B.  It is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, but A is supposed to be equal correct?  It has been stated since the begining that all healers will heal the same just by different methods.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, then why not B</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me re-iterate here.  I love my class but if your going to go off and make everything equal in one catagorey then do it for all.  I can not say it any clearer than this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:  Is this the way I wanted it to be?  No, but since they are working this way lets make it fair.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by cadrach on <SPAN class=date_text>10-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I like the way you worded this.  And I think most templars agree, that if A holds true...which we have to wait and see...then we will want B.   And if we get B....we will still be very diffrent.      As supernova pointed out, reactives have there situational superiority, as do the other heal types.....we will still be very diffrent, yet have a better balance.      I personally think they could triple the damage of all 4 of our damage spells, change nothing else about them, and we would still be under the DPS of a fury, but have a much better balance.   That is providing, "A" hold true.  We have to wait and see.<BR>

[Formangenavn]

<P>This is obviously a very big thing to Templars. I think you would stand a much better chance at getting the devs attention if you presented numbers. Find the add1 on broker, use cast and recast time and average damage and use HO. You then have theoretic dps for every healer class. I would very much like to see the results of this. If I have higher DPS then you I vote for Templar increase in DPS. </P> <P>Nice thing about this is that its not influenced by equpment, playstyle, uppgrades, different mobs and so on. Yes there are weaknesses like bosting int and som classes might be better vs grp mobs, but atlest you would have solid proof of what is balanced and what is not. </P> <P>I would appologise if this information has already been posted, I have not seen it anywhere and can not remember anyone ever talking about something like this.</P> <P>51 Warden</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SnowKnight wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Supernova17 wrote:<BR>Stop the voices ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!<BR><BR>I can keep my group alive with little effort. I can keep my raid tank and raid group alive if I am on the ball. I understand I am a pure healer and not a healer-dps hybrid.<BR><BR>I'm happy =D<BR><BR>Make the voices stop!!!!!!!!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I can keep the group alive too. So can other healers, but they can also solo much faster than us, or double as dps if heavy healing isnt needed.<BR> <P>Message Edited by SnowKnight on <SPAN class=date_text>10-20-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:25 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can't remember ever thinking of a druid or shaman  "You know since you aren't 'heavy' healing how about  instead of debuffing  you drop a few of those really weak nukes you got over here." <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Id hardly call a 1k plus nuke weak. Ours do 300 or so damage at level 60.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Mine does like 240 at level 48 and twice that against undead so I'm thinking you are underestimating it.   It still changes nothing.  Has anyone ever really been turned away because they are a Templar?  Are there just healers lined up galore so much that groups can go "Not that guy he's a Templar?"</DIV>

[Alectra]

<DIV>The exp thing is one think I didnt understand why we get less for standing in back groud healing group .I thought we would of got same exp as a tank for killing mob .Its not like we can go in front lines tank it and get the same exp .If we going to need to tank the mobs for same exp  we should have the means to do so .[Removed for Content] I dont want to be a tanking cleric to get same exp now that would be so funny hehehe...hopefully this will get address and we wount have to tank lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>alectra-52 templar</DIV>

[Skydude]

<P>Foreman I like that post bro and I personally thank you for at least recognizing the majority of the Templars here are having quite a big problem with this. The DEVs have the numbers, they know we are weak offensively. Your attack spells look like billowing nuke clouds for a purpose bro, they're just that, Nukes. A Templar is extremely lucky to hit for more than 300 on a single strike with a 3 to 6 second recast. A warden can hit for 600 with a lesser timer or a comparable one, Furys I've seen hit for over 1200.</P> <P>Now if they even moved us up to 4 - 5 hundred I think a lot of Templars would get off these boards and back to playing, but even though they have moderators trolling these forums, they won't address Templars directly even with some BS public statement such as, "OK we recognize the Templars are up in arms atm, please be patient and we will address this yada yada yada....." Silence here makes peoples minds wander and the volatile situation here exacerbates as time prods on.</P> <P>The atmosphere here is one that we've been shafted again and they don't care. Now like I said in previous posts, I think we'll be ok and do well, but it isn't good business to anger a good portion of your community without at least addressing it. They really need to look at damaging effects of a one-sided update and learn from it.</P>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nezzeto wrote:<BR> <P>In my opinion, there only are 2 ways to balance things.</P> <P>A. Make everyone the same.</P> <P>If you make druids heal as good as clerics, then make sure shamans can ward the same.  If everyone can deal with countering damage the same, then make sure all 3 can DPS the same and have the same utility.  If all 3 can heal equally, dps equally and have same utility, then make sure all 3 wear the same armor.  If all 3 classes are essentially the same, remove 2 and keep one to avoid confusion and dissapointment for thinking there is choice.  Final step is to simply call them priests or rename everyone to Drusharics.</P> <P>OR</P> <P>B. Balance Healing, utility, and dps by having 1 class be the best at one, but decent or crappy at the other 2.</P> <P>Example:</P> <P>Make  class X  be strongest healer, crappy dps, crappy utility</P> <P>Make  class Y be strongest dps,  decent healing, decent utility</P> <P>Make class Z be strongest utility, decent dps, decent healing</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Great post.  Sums it up very nicely.

[Shirlyn]

I know you guys prolly don't want to hear from a Fury, esp a lvl 30ish Fury, but hear me out. DPS means nothing when you're grouped. Yeah, I can solo decently, but those my 1 nuke eats mana pretty quick. So in a group, I can't cast my nuke, because I need to save my mana for the spam healing I have to do, which eats mana pretty quick as well. <div></div>

[Kyralis]

The problem with balancing best healer/best utility/best dps in the priest tree is that we're all priests- people care about our healing, and to a lesser extent our utility; our DPS is unimportant to a group. DPS becomes important primarily for soloing, which seems to be where most of the complaints are from the Templar. As a Warden, let me state quite clearly that I would love to see the next patch notes include Templar damage being improved. I don't think you should necessarily do damage in exactly the same way as a druid- perhaps some unique method can be devised- but with healing being balanced I most certainly agree that utility and DPS need to be as well. I actually think that you're singling out druids a little unfairly, though- while Furies are certainly the highest of the priests, shaman and inquisitors have been able to match my own Warden DPS. I'm of the opinion that it's mostly Templar who need a boost in their damage abilities, and you have at least this Warden's support in getting that needed upgrade. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We had a few Templar show support on the Warden boards for our woes, and I'm perfectly happy to reciprocate. No need for the cross-class hate. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <P>Foreman I like that post bro and I personally thank you for at least recognizing the majority of the Templars here are having quite a big problem with this. The DEVs have the numbers, they know we are weak offensively. Your attack spells look like billowing nuke clouds for a purpose bro, they're just that, Nukes. A Templar is extremely lucky to hit for more than 300 on a single strike with a 3 to 6 second recast. A warden can hit for 600 with a lesser timer or a comparable one, Furys I've seen hit for over 1200.</P> <P>Now if they even moved us up to 4 - 5 hundred I think a lot of Templars would get off these boards and back to playing, but even though they have moderators trolling these forums, they won't address Templars directly even with some BS public statement such as, "OK we recognize the Templars are up in arms atm, please be patient and we will address this yada yada yada....." Silence here makes peoples minds wander and the volatile situation here exacerbates as time prods on.</P> <P>The atmosphere here is one that we've been shafted again and they don't care. Now like I said in previous posts, I think we'll be ok and do well, but it isn't good business to anger a good portion of your community without at least addressing it. They really need to look at damaging effects of a one-sided update and learn from it.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sorry Skydude, that is simply not true. I am a 51 warden and I can tell you my biggest nuke at add1 deals 300-360 and my smallest  at add1 does 250-300 both with 2 sec cast time and 3 and 8 sec recast. Then I have a DoT at app4 with a 536 debuff to elemental which does 92-113 damage initially and every 4 sec for 24 sec. I do have a fire based spell, but is on same timer as one of the others, is grey and does less damage. I can use it against fire resistent mobs I guess. I also have a dd aoe add1 which does 432-528, 3 sec cast time and 16 sec recast. I have nothing else. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the very reason why I wanted someone to do this, beacause I belive you will find out that my dps is not much higher then yours. People THINK they know, but they just dont, and everyone is getting worked up for nothing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey, I might be wrong, in which case I am all for upping Templar dps.</DIV>

[Skydude]

<DIV>Well bro it is true, I have a lvl 53 Warden in my guild that can nuke for what I previously stated. You may possibly have a low intelligence on your character so your not dealing a higher damage like her.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skydude wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well bro it is true, I have a lvl 53 Warden in my guild that can nuke for what I previously stated. You may possibly have a low intelligence on your character so your not dealing a higher damage like her.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Which warden in which guild?  What spell at what quality level?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Formangenavn]

<P>If he was using our aoe nuke at add3 or higher I might agree, but single target dd 100% more damage because of int? What kind of int does he have? But more importently, what kind of damage would YOU do? I dont like comparing people. Too many 2nd hand storys, differences in gear and uppgrades. It's just not reliable.</P> <P>I have no time to do this comparison, but I hope someone does, and since Templars think they are last in line on dps the motivation for them to prove it should be the greatest :smileywink:</P>

[Mor]

I want to know too.   I admit my int is pathetic but 100% more?  Wow. <div></div>