Just cant find this fun.

[Hakthaf]

<DIV>Before i start i know im gonna be flamed, just please keep it down and dont yell at me to play another class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before the revamp i used to really enjoy my templar, i got a great feeling when i could keep a tank alive and surprise the group when we would take on mobs that they didnt think we could. Before revamp all healers had their own specialty that had its uses, we all had differnt things. I know heals were not equal but that could have been fixed easily by changing their heals that were bugged and a few other things. I used to really love my templar it had a lot of healing power and actually felt like it had something differnt than all the other healers, and was a lot differnt than the basic healer classes you see in many other RPGs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now since combat revamp ive given it awhile now to get used to my new templar, try it out give it time to see if i can ever like it. Now i just can't. The class lost a lot of what made it differnt. This equality between healers is killing the fun of being a healer. Before each class had their thing they did well, templars were the big healers low damage low buff in comparison, druids were regen buffs and damage moderate but they had all three decent, and well to tell the truth i never really looked at shamans so cant say much about them. Now it seems templar has been changed to be a basic healer that just is not that fun to play. Our reactive heals that made us stand out just are not that great. I know they are useful but before they would actually heal for more than the damage taken actually giving health back, now they are lucky to do that. Our overall healing power was cut. Now we depend on the basic heals that pretty much every priest class gets, the single target single heals that are nothing special, all healers now are pretty much the same thing as a templar now even if a little buggy. Only difference is other classes have buffs and damage that are much better than templar. How i always saw templar was a healer pure healer that was supposed to be just a little better at it then other classes because of our lack of damage and buffs and utility compared to the other priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar now just has none of the flavor it used to have. Our mez line is only useful solo and even then its limited. The time delay between heal waves now kills our groups and gets us yelled at from people thinking we stopped healing. Im not sure if this changes in the 50's as im only in my 40s right now. But currently after hitting reactive, large heal, medium heal, i have to sit for a good 5-7 seconds before any of their timers recharge to be used again and many times this is a long enough time to get my tank killed or so near death that its almost impossible to bring him back. i tried adding in group heals and group reactives but in the longer fights this drained power to fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wish SoE would bring back some of the flavor each priest subclass had before revamp. Let each one have a purpose and do that purpose better than other priests. Let templars have some healing power back to make up for the fact that compared to other priests we have the least in buffing and damage power. Our thing that made us needed before revamp was our healing power, that is what i signed on for, i didnt want all these mez spells and other stuff you gave to us in revamp in exchange for taking some of our healing power away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If priests are all supposed to be equal as you say, give us the great buffs other priests has, why should we only have our heals and weaker buffs and they get great buffs and great heals.  That isnt equal, heals may be equal but over all it is not. They kept their great buffs and damage and gained healing power making them greater in use than Templar in my opinion. I would much rather have all my buffs, nukes, mez taken away if that is what would get me my healing power back that i enjoyed having so much in groups.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hakthaf wrote:<BR> <DIV>Before i start i know im gonna be flamed, just please keep it down and dont yell at me to play another class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before the revamp i used to really enjoy my templar, i got a great feeling when i could keep a tank alive and surprise the group when we would take on mobs that they didnt think we could. Before revamp all healers had their own specialty that had its uses, we all had differnt things. I know heals were not equal but that could have been fixed easily by changing their heals that were bugged and a few other things. I used to really love my templar it had a lot of healing power and actually felt like it had something differnt than all the other healers, and was a lot differnt than the basic healer classes you see in many other RPGs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now since combat revamp ive given it awhile now to get used to my new templar, try it out give it time to see if i can ever like it. Now i just can't. The class lost a lot of what made it differnt. This equality between healers is killing the fun of being a healer. Before each class had their thing they did well, templars were the big healers low damage low buff in comparison, druids were regen buffs and damage moderate but they had all three decent, and well to tell the truth i never really looked at shamans so cant say much about them. Now it seems templar has been changed to be a basic healer that just is not that fun to play. Our reactive heals that made us stand out just are not that great. I know they are useful but before they would actually heal for more than the damage taken actually giving health back, now they are lucky to do that. Our overall healing power was cut. Now we depend on the basic heals that pretty much every priest class gets, the single target single heals that are nothing special, all healers now are pretty much the same thing as a templar now even if a little buggy. Only difference is other classes have buffs and damage that are much better than templar. How i always saw templar was a healer pure healer that was supposed to be just a little better at it then other classes because of our lack of damage and buffs and utility compared to the other priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar now just has none of the flavor it used to have. Our mez line is only useful solo and even then its limited. The time delay between heal waves now kills our groups and gets us yelled at from people thinking we stopped healing. Im not sure if this changes in the 50's as im only in my 40s right now. But currently after hitting reactive, large heal, medium heal, i have to sit for a good 5-7 seconds before any of their timers recharge to be used again and many times this is a long enough time to get my tank killed or so near death that its almost impossible to bring him back. i tried adding in group heals and group reactives but in the longer fights this drained power to fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wish SoE would bring back some of the flavor each priest subclass had before revamp. Let each one have a purpose and do that purpose better than other priests. Let templars have some healing power back to make up for the fact that compared to other priests we have the least in buffing and damage power. Our thing that made us needed before revamp was our healing power, that is what i signed on for, i didnt want all these mez spells and other stuff you gave to us in revamp in exchange for taking some of our healing power away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If priests are all supposed to be equal as you say, give us the great buffs other priests has, why should we only have our heals and weaker buffs and they get great buffs and great heals.  That isnt equal, heals may be equal but over all it is not. They kept their great buffs and damage and gained healing power making them greater in use than Templar in my opinion. I would much rather have all my buffs, nukes, mez taken away if that is what would get me my healing power back that i enjoyed having so much in groups.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Level?  Spells over Apprentice I?  <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hakthaf]

<DIV>Yes all my spells are adept I, adept III, and master 2 for my big heal. im 41 currently.</DIV>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div>Low 40's are not nice. <ul> <li>You are in a new tier, so spell upgrade harvesting is dangerous</li> <li>You don't get a new Master II spell choice until level 44</li> <li>Several heal spells and buffs are replaced, and heal for barely more at App1/2/4 than the Adept3 they replace, while using much more power. </li> <li>DoF means a lot of players, just a bit higher, that you would normally group with, aren't there (DoF is 45+ by design)</li> <li>My impression is that xp gains are starting to be weighted a lot more than lower levels</li> </ul> I've levelled 41/42?-44 since LU13.  At 44 with a few of the new spells at Adept3, and the Master2 it starts getting bearable again. With the recast timers - I suggest you throw in a Prostrate, while vainly waiting for the refresh, and on longer fights use the gap for refreshing a debuff or two. If you still can't keep up, then either the tank needs to get out of offense mode, and start using a shield etc, or you need to find easier targets. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Antryg Mistrose wrote:<BR> Low 40's are not nice.<BR> <UL> <LI>You are in a new tier, so spell upgrade harvesting is dangerous</LI> <LI>You don't get a new Master II spell choice until level 44</LI> <LI>Several heal spells and buffs are replaced, and heal for barely more at App1/2/4 than the Adept3 they replace, while using much more power.<BR></LI> <LI>DoF means a lot of players, just a bit higher, that you would normally group with, aren't there (DoF is 45+ by design)</LI> <LI>My impression is that xp gains are starting to be weighted a lot more than lower levels</LI></UL>I've levelled 41/42?-44 since LU13.  At 44 with a few of the new spells at Adept3, and the Master2 it starts getting bearable again.<BR><BR>With the recast timers - I suggest you throw in a Prostrate, while vainly waiting for the refresh, and on longer fights use the gap for refreshing a debuff or two.<BR><BR>If you still can't keep up, then either the tank needs to get out of offense mode, and start using a shield etc, or you need to find easier targets.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <SPAN class=date_text>10-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed.   Low 40's were rather painful for me with the changes as well.   The Master II you get at 44 (I took the Group Reactive I believe) made all the difference in the world.    Its critical that you make sure everyone is doing what they are supposed to so damage is minimized.   For example making sure the Wizard isn't standing in the mobs AOE range,  the Ranger isn't accidentally aggroing an add, and the Necro isn't overnuking and drawing hate.  I don't envy you and I'll agree its not easy but it is possible to do.</DIV>

[Geksh]

Pardon me for asking, but aren't games supposed to be fun? I've seen this over and over in multiple threads - people (like myself) no longer find it fun. The responses are almost always "those levels are a pain, but if you struggle, it gets better" I'm sorry, but to me that just screams bad design. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gekshia wrote:<BR>Pardon me for asking, but aren't games supposed to be fun?<BR><BR>I've seen this over and over in multiple threads - people (like myself) no longer find it fun. The responses are almost always "those levels are a pain, but if you struggle, it gets better"<BR><BR>I'm sorry, but to me that just screams bad design.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's not my response.  My response is you have to create your own fun.  You have to find your own fun.  If it's not fun, don't do it.  However, not everything in an MMOG is "fun" <EM>per se -</EM> certainly not for every player.  That's why some games get stadiums and other games get ridiculed.  Ever paid $20 to pack into an auditorum and watch a game of chess?  Do you think all chess Grandmasters refer to the game as "fun"?  </P> <P>For some, it's the challenge that's invigorating.  For others, the social aspect.  Still others enjoy the prestige of becoming good.  Many of these players will refer to the game as "fun", certainly...but still others consider "fun" as something different than you or I.  </P> <P>I'm certain that what I consider fun and what you consider fun aren't the same at all.  If everyone considered the same things fun, I could walk into any dance club tonight - regardless of hip hop, industrial, or underground electronica - and every single person would enjoy running a guild in Everquest 2, right?  I mean, that's what I consider fun...but I know players who would sooner rip their eyes out of their sockets than run a 60 account guild.  I know players who HATE raiding...and others who can't understand why you'd ever do anything else.  Every Tuesday, my guild has a PVP night - not all of my members show up, but I have a blast.</P> <P>So, whose standard of fun do we use?  Mine?  My standard of fun is obviously different from yours.  This also rules out your standard as THE standard.  At the end of the day, the developers design the game.  It's up to us to either create or find our own individual "fun".  If we can't do that as individuals, then we look elsewhere - be that a different class, a different guild, or a different game altogether.  </P> <P> </P>

[Geksh]

I'm sorry .. I guess I'm generally in a bad mood these days <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm not trying to establish a standard for "fun" (omg that sounds awfully boring, hehe) - I totally agree that people find their fun in different ways. However, I must say that in order for me personally to find my class "fun", I like my class to be good at what it's supposed to be good at - i.e. healing. At the moment, to me atleast, that's simply not the case. I know that harvesting until my hands bleed might enable me to upgrade my spells, and so increase their effectiveness, however marginally. But honestly .. harvesting for hours on end to make my character marginally better is not my idea of fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This is my personal opinion - again, I'm not trying to establish a standard for fun here. Before the revamp, I was always trying to be as mana effecient as I could, by using my reactives to their full potential. As the OP said, that is essentially no longer possible. Having to throw every single heal in the arsenal at the tank simply to keep him standing, and then having to wait several seconds for recast timers is not challenging at all. I do like a challenge, but being restricted by recast timers while still having mana is, simply put, stupid. Sorry for hijacking the post .. I guess I needed to vent some frustration <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh, and by the way .. I certainly hope those chess grandmasters find fun in what they do .. otherwise, why do it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gekshia wrote:<BR>I'm sorry .. I guess I'm generally in a bad mood these days <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>I'm not trying to establish a standard for "fun" (omg that sounds awfully boring, hehe) - I totally agree that people find their fun in different ways. However, I must say that in order for me personally to find my class "fun", I like my class to be good at what it's supposed to be good at - i.e. healing. At the moment, to me atleast, that's simply not the case. I know that harvesting until my hands bleed might enable me to upgrade my spells, and so increase their effectiveness, however marginally. But honestly .. harvesting for hours on end to make my character marginally better is not my idea of fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>This is my personal opinion - again, I'm not trying to establish a standard for fun here.<BR><BR>Before the revamp, I was always trying to be as mana effecient as I could, by using my reactives to their full potential. As the OP said, that is essentially no longer possible. Having to throw every single heal in the arsenal at the tank simply to keep him standing, and then having to wait several seconds for recast timers is not challenging at all. I do like a challenge, but being restricted by recast timers while still having mana is, simply put, stupid.<BR><BR>Sorry for hijacking the post .. I guess I needed to vent some frustration <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Oh, and by the way .. I certainly hope those chess grandmasters find fun in what they do .. otherwise, why do it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This thread was about someone not having fun anymore so you didn't even remotely hijack it and I'm glad you spoke your mind about it.  Too many people get into the mindset that this is work to play.   Now granted some people actually enjoy certain aspects of this game like tradeskilling or parsing data and would consider that fun so its really kind of subjective.  If you aren't having fun then there isn't a reason you should continue what you are doing.</P> <P>I understand what you mean about spell upgrades to a point.  Its difficult if not impossible to find spell upgrades on my server so sometimes I just end up making do for awhile and honestly it sucks sometimes.   At the end of the day though when I go out with 3 or 4 friends for a few hours and we all survive wave after wave of mob I know I played my part and thats where my satisfaction comes from.</P> <P>Yes there are a lot of panic moments where I'm tossing ever heal I can at the tank and hoping they survive but its now no longer possible for me to toss a single and group reactive and walk to the fridge.  I think thats how it should be.   If you aren't having fun then I'd switch up what you are doing and find what can make you happy and I wish you the best luck in doing it.   Thats all most of us are here for is to have fun.</P>

[xyriel]

<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hakthaf wrote:<BR> <DIV>. Im not sure if this changes in the 50's as im only in my 40s right now. But currently after hitting reactive, large heal, medium heal, i have to sit for a good 5-7 seconds before any of their timers recharge to be used again and many times this is a long enough time to get my tank killed or so near death that its almost impossible to bring him back. i tried adding in group heals and group reactives but in the longer fights this drained power to fast.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I've notice the same thing and with talking with other templars, levels 20-23, 30-33, 40-43 and 50-53 are all the same. It's the levels before the single reactive gets upgraded.  Since the group reactive was halved, the usefulness of reactive at these levels is limited. When you hit the 4 (24, 34, 44, 54) you get the upgrade and it gets easier again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[rtoub]

<DIV>Threads like this are very constructive.  I would have to say there are quite a few people who aren't having as much fun playing their templars as they did before.  I see this as a problem that should be addressed.  It is tricky since lots of people are still having fun so I would think some minor changes that address issues could solve the problem without making the game less fun for those who like it the way it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rather than threatining to cancel, abandon toons, bashing sony, bashing people who like it the way it is we need to instead identify things that make the game less fun and hope that somebody will listen.  The devs are more likely to read a thread like this one than others where flaming and bashing thrives.</DIV>

[Sassyone]

<P>When a person would rather do the mundane work of harvesting vs hunting alongside friends ..there is a problem. I do not find the templar fun anymore and if it were not for the friends I have in game, I would trash it. Lvl 56 Templar and I get sick and tired of watching group members die because I am waiting on long azz recast timers and then get 'what happened here?' Why did I die? Were you afk? Why didnt you heal me? blah blah blah. </P> <P>I understand healing classes needed balanced. But gutting a class that was basically all about healing just to satisfy the other classes sucks. I hear all the classes talk about 'I lost this but got this in return, so all is good' . Well, Temps gave away and got nothing. There is no real reason or advantage to choose a templar for groupage vs another healing class. We offer nothing to the group other than expected death and the long wait on that heal that is needed seconds before it can be landed. All the other healer classes have utility to offer a group and dont talk to me about we received the mez line..it's useless unless you are soloing. Soothe is a joke. We have heals that is it. Yes we have one of the highest heals, BUT we wait 11.5 sec on the recast. Do they not realize how many group members can die during that time? I will be lvling my Temp to 60 (only because I am in a raiding guild) then I will be shelving it. If I decide in those next 4 levels it's just not worth it anymore. I will seriously consider retiring altogether.  </P> <P>I did not take this game on to be stressed, frustrated, and chewed out due to deaths every night. My money is worth more than that. </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>When a person would rather do the mundane work of harvesting vs hunting alongside friends ..there is a problem. I do not find the templar fun anymore and if it were not for the friends I have in game, I would trash it. Lvl 56 Templar and I get sick and tired of watching group members die because I am waiting on long azz recast timers and then get 'what happened here?' Why did I die? Were you afk? Why didnt you heal me? blah blah blah.</P> <P>I understand healing classes needed balanced. But gutting a class that was basically all about healing just to satisfy the other classes sucks. I hear all the classes talk about 'I lost this but got this in return, so all is good' . Well, Temps gave away and got nothing. There is no real reason or advantage to choose a templar for groupage vs another healing class. We offer nothing to the group other than expected death and the long wait on that heal that is needed seconds before it can be landed. All the other healer classes have utility to offer a group and dont talk to me about we received the mez line..it's useless unless you are soloing. Soothe is a joke. We have heals that is it. Yes we have one of the highest heals, BUT we wait 11.5 sec on the recast. Do they not realize how many group members can die during that time? I will be lvling my Temp to 60 (only because I am in a raiding guild) then I will be shelving it. If I decide in those next 4 levels it's just not worth it anymore. I will seriously consider retiring altogether.  </P> <P>I did not take this game on to be stressed, frustrated, and chewed out due to deaths every night. My money is worth more than that.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If it's not fun, change classes, guilds, or games.  New Templars will NOT see the problems some current Templars see because they don't remember the "good ole' days" when we could pop one or two reactives while the Guardian tanked a red Epic X2 for our four person group (yes, I remember doing that...several times).  Now, all priests are on relatively equal footing.  We're still the best healers, but we actually have to work at it.  New Templars in my guild are loving the class.  Old Templars who were lower level are already loving the class.  I haven't had any Templars in my guild complain or ask to change classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I'll grant you weren't only hitting blue to yellow content typically, but even so, I'm simply not witnessing the horrible issues that some Templars seem to complain about.  Templars in fabled gear with Master spells complain they can't keep groups standing and Templars such as myself are forced to ask what the problem is?  How can someone in Tier V common armor have little to no issue keeping groups standing...while Templars in Tier IV rare and fabled gear have so many problems?  Are you constantly fighting orange heroics with a four person group?  Are you trying to take on reds?  What spells are you actually using during a fight?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate to make it sound like it's a player issue, but if I'm able to make it work with my Templar, then I'm forced to wonder how another player can have more problems in a better equipped character.  I'm apparantly not the only Templar seeing the problem with this either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't argue "fun" with you.  If you can't find fun or create fun on your own, then nothing I do or so can change that.  However, if you're going to make blanket statements about how this isn't possible, I'm compelled to point out that it's quite possible and I'm proof to that.  This is just like the discussions that came out after Splitpaw was released claiming the Arena Champion was "impossible" for Templars to solo...and yet there I was, taking him down night after night in Fulginate and Adept I's.  Either I'm that good (which I doubt) or others simply aren't exploring all the options before throwing in the towel (more likely).  You tell me what the difference is, because frankly I'm not sure why other Templars seem to have so many problems soloing or grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sassyone]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P> "We're still the best healers, but we actually have to work at it."</P> <P> </P> <P>Largest heals does not mean best healers.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P> "We're still the best healers, but we actually have to work at it."</P> <P> </P> <P>Largest heals does not mean best healers.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Correct.. more direct heals = best "healers" which you have..</P> <P>I point you to this thread:<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11723" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=11723</A></P> <P>You have the most ways to heal a target out of any of the priest classes.. hands down. Kendricke is trying to point out to many of you that are having serious problems with this revamp that you have to use ALL the tools available to you.. that is the case for almost every class now.. it's no-longer "fire and forget" like it used to be :smileywink: (unless you're a mage :smileytongue: )</P><p>Message Edited by Duntzzzz on <span class=date_text>10-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P>Largest heals does not mean best healers.  </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't base my argument on that.  I base my argument on the fact that our entire class is built around healing.  Our utility is based around reactively responding to damage quickly.  Whether this is through reactive heals (our blessings and intercessions), our investment heals (our fate line), proc heals (mark and glory lines), our bread and butter is essentially passive "buff healing".  This gives us more time to adjust to changing issues during the flow of battle, and to use direct heals to fill in the gaps, so to speak.</P> <P>Now, I'm not sure where you get the idea that we have the "largest heals", because to my knowledge that's simply not the case.  However, I'm still able to effectively and efficiently heal my groups...and much better than other priests in virtually any situation.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Blast2hell]

<P>this is a good thread, well except for a few posts.   I'm one of those people that enjoy the templar as it is now, but I had to think about this.  What makes the templar fun to me?  When do I feel like I'm having fun?</P> <P>Before the revamp, playing my templar was only fun or exciting when raiding and trying to pump out massive healing power to keep a tank alive against bad odds.   But the 6 man group offered nothing for fun, everything was so easy....we owned everything...well till icy digs...then that was some fun...but what they had to do to the zone to make it fun was a bit off the wall.</P> <P>Now, after the revamp...fun to me is when I have to push my healing to the limit to keep the group alive yet we come out on top.  I only group with guildmates, and in general I think almost all my guildmates are top notch players.  So they make life easier on me.  Still, the poop can hit the fan, and I need to call on my skill to apply healing in the right way at the right time to keep the group alive...or if not alive, to avoid a wipe.  Sometimes I have to let the caster die because the tank is more important.   But this is part of the skill in the game now, evaluating what to do when and where, then applying our 12 diffrent healing spells in the proper way(At level 54).   Yes 12, see my other thread.    I love being the only healer in group, because people will see that I get the job done, there in good hands.   Although, since I group with guildmates, I'm in good hands too.  Many a time the people I grouped with have saved my butt, and in turn, saved there own.</P> <P>Yeah I'm a parser, and parsing is a type of fun to me....I love seeing the big healing numbers coming out in a short period of time.   Makes me feel like my character is powerful at his role, just as a wizard feels powerful when he cranks out a lot of damage in a short amount of time.  I just love fighting a few encounters in a row, and then seeing I cranked out 30k in healing and nobody died.</P> <P>In the end though, being a templar, and enjoying the game is fun for me in my own way...and everyone can't enjoy the game the same way as we are all diffrent people.  Nor do we all play our templars the same way,  because you have to admit there is more to healing as a templar then just casting our two reactives and two direct heals.   If you think this is all there is to healing, this would be the first reason your having a hard time.</P> <P> </P> <P>I also want to encourage those templars that feel there doing everything they can and still fail to keep there group alive to possibly look at the problem as a bigger picture.    Are your group members really dying because of your limitations, or can some of the problem lie within your group members and how there doing there own job?   Don't think you need to defend your friends as Superheroes and only blame your own templar limitations, I'm not aiming at that.   I just want people to realize that a 6 man group can be killed and crippled by 1 poor player....no matter how hard or well other people play.    The other templar in my guild is an awesome healer, any group will add him as fast as me if they need a healer.  He gets so mad when he groups outside of guild because of all the xp debt.   I know he's a great healer, so what does that tell me?  The people he's grouping with suck and are killing him and themselves.   </P> <P>So, this all just my opinion....i find fun in the game because I feel I'm still a powerful healer, but I actually get to apply some skill and thought when fighting in a 6 man group....as opposed to the boring game I played in pre-revamp.  </P> <P>Although, keep in mind, I don't think templars are perfect, if you read my posts you will see there are things I want changed or think should be improved....yet I'm still having fun.</P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Now, <STRONG>I'm not sure where you get the idea that we have the "largest heals", because to my knowledge that's simply not the case</STRONG>.  However, I'm still able to effectively and efficiently heal my groups...and much better than other priests in virtually any situation.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is true Kendricke.. Both Templars, and Defilers have the Largest Direct heals compared to the other priest classes (the Minor Healing, Arch Healing, and Group Healing lines) all the rest is very different though... ours are identical in healing capacity, just differ in the amount of power used.. yours are all power, ours are power and health</DIV>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>.  However, I'm still able to effectively and efficiently heal my groups...and much better than other priests in virtually any situation.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We have the largest direct heal spells.   Well equal to that of the defiler actually.   This is a fact.   Although at 52 the fury can be argued to have the largest on a situational basis with there back in the fray having an adept 3 potential of 1500 point heal...while master 1 greater restoration does 1399 at most I think.</P> <P>Yet, once we hit 60, the templar and defiler direct heals are the largest yet again.    Those two spells being  Grander Amelioration and Grander Restoration.    comparing this spells within the same spell lines of other priest, the defiler and templar have the largest direct heal.  By largest I mean it heals for the most HP per cast.<BR></P>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>Now, <STRONG>I'm not sure where you get the idea that we have the "largest heals", because to my knowledge that's simply not the case</STRONG>.  However, I'm still able to effectively and efficiently heal my groups...and much better than other priests in virtually any situation.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is true Kendricke.. Both Templars, and Defilers have the Largest Direct heals compared to the other priest classes (the Minor Healing, Arch Healing, and Group Healing lines) all the rest is very different though... ours are identical in healing capacity, just differ in the amount of power used.. yours are all power, ours are power and health</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh, group direct heal too...cool.    </P> <P>Another fun fact, is that our Single Target Reactives and Group Reactives are identical to the inquistor if at the same spell quality.   </P>

[Kendricke]

Well, see...you learn something new every day.  :smileywink:

[Eileithia]

<P>/derail</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Blast2hell wrote:</P> <P>Grander Amelioration and Grander Restoration.   <BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I wonder what SOE's going to do when the level cap hit's 100 with their spell naming scheme..</P> <P>Are we going to get spells that are like "Super Uber Master Extra Cheeze Amelioration" that heals for 12kHP?</P> <P>Really.. they should just change the name of the spell :smileyvery-happy:</P> <DIV>/re-rail ?!?!?!</DIV>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>Mucho Grander Amelioration(Level 71)</DIV> <DIV>Mucho Grander Restoration(Level 74)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Super Duper Amelioration (Level 85)</DIV> <DIV>Super Duper Restoration (Level 8<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Timaarit]

Sassyone, actually we dont have even the highest heals. Ok, our single target heal heals for most hp per cast, but for example the inquisitor version heals more per time as it has shorter recast. Same for the group heal. Also inquisitors reactives are exactly the same as our reactives. All that is different are focused benefaction and our proc heals. So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting. <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Sassyone, <BR><BR>So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, like everone you have your right to your opinion.  But I think we are anything but  "plain healers", and for me and EQ2 I feel like I am the best healer.  </P> <P>Also, Sassy's comment wasn't on an HP over time comment.   It was just stating the templar heal is the largest(as is the defiler),  you and nobody else can disagree with that.<BR></P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Sassyone, <BR><BR>actually we dont have even the highest heals. Ok, our single target heal heals for most hp per cast, but for example the inquisitor version heals more per time as it has shorter recast. Same for the group heal. Also inquisitors reactives are exactly the same as our reactives. All that is different are <STRONG>focused benefaction and our proc heals</STRONG>. So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is your utility.</P> <P>A "plain healer?"   I think you could have worded that better. <BR></P>

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Sassyone, <BR><BR>actually we dont have even the highest heals. Ok, our single target heal heals for most hp per cast, but for example the inquisitor version heals more per time as it has shorter recast. Same for the group heal. Also inquisitors reactives are exactly the same as our reactives. All that is different are <STRONG>focused benefaction and our proc heals</STRONG>. So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is your utility.</P> <P>A "plain healer?"   I think you could have worded that better. <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>You have to realize, Radar-X, that most of us do not see the proc heals as any kind of reasonable utility. Proc heals are great in raid settings, great for players who raid and don't solo, but for most of us who do not raid, and especially for the huge number of small guild players like myself, who spend much of our time in small groups and soloing, they are not usually worth the mana to cast at all due to their short duration compared to the lengths of the fights. In many circumstances, our Mark line and especially our Involuntary line, they are just a waste of mana. Soloing, it is less efficient to use them than to just not use them (the Mark line is debateable actually, but it is certainly not of <EM>clear</EM> benefit to our XP rate, in the same way that say, Strong Root is for Wardens).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we are just comparing on the one hand, our heals+nukes, to the similar-heals, better DPS and better (real) utility of other priests, and only have our high mitigation as a counter-point (which is currently less useful due to the excessive interrupts problem right now) - and we do not fare well in such a comparison. Now, before LU13, our straight-up heals were a lot more powerful than those of fellow priests, and there was actually balance in the choice ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Proc heals do not get Templars groups. No-one ever says "Hey, we need little proc heals, we have to get a Templar". Not to even mention, they are boring, they give the player no control, they are not enjoyable. At least back in EQ1 days, clerics had root, so we could CC properly when needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sigh, I would happily accept loss of all the Mark spells, all the Involuntary spells, and all the Sign of.. spells, just for a single-encounter target root. *That* would be <STRONG>useful</STRONG> utility. Heck, even a single-mob root would be good (as long as it is a real root, one that actually has a reasonable chance of lasting 2 or 3 minutes).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna</DIV><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Sassyone,<BR><BR>actually we dont have even the highest heals. Ok, our single target heal heals for most hp per cast, but for example the inquisitor version heals more per time as it has shorter recast. Same for the group heal. Also inquisitors reactives are exactly the same as our reactives. All that is different are focused benefaction and our proc heals. So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What utility do they have I do not?  Evac?  In a group setting I'd much prefer a scout for that.  Invisibility?  I get the same thing for a Chameleon totem...without having to worry about staying in range of the Fury.  Spirit of the Wolf?  That's 24%.  Buy a horse or even just a Totem of the Spirit Wolf. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When Templars complain that some of our spells are traditionally Enchanter abilities, we have to remember that all three of those "other" utility abilities are basic Scout skills:  evacuations, hiding, increasing travel speed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still trying to figure out when our class lost utility or when other Priests suddenly gained utility.  Did Wardens suddenly get Evac during Live Update 13?  Did Furies suddenly gain Invisibility then?  Did Shaman suddently gain Spirit of the Wolf in the past few weeks?  What did we outright lose regarding "utility"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So before the revamp we were GODS of healing compared to other priests... and now we're just "better" at healing than other priests?  That's not enough?  We need to be so good at healing that we can heal tanks which are taking on Red Epic targets 10 levels above the group?  We need to be so good at healing that we can hit two buttons on a hotbar, then run to the kitchen and back without so much as worrying that anything bad's going to happen?  We need to be so good at healing that skill doesn't matter...at all?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to argue how it "feels" to you or how "fun" this is, I can't refute you.  If you want to argue whether or not Templars are the best healers, that's quite different.  There's scores of Templars coming here noting that they can still keep tanks standing and still keep groups alive.  Templars that cannot need to analyze exactly what the differences are that prevent them from doing what others can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Radar-X wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:Sassyone, actually we dont have even the highest heals. Ok, our single target heal heals for most hp per cast, but for example the inquisitor version heals more per time as it has shorter recast. Same for the group heal. Also inquisitors reactives are exactly the same as our reactives. All that is different are <strong>focused benefaction and our proc heals</strong>. So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>There is your utility.</p> <p>A "plain healer?"   I think you could have worded that better. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, there is my 'utility'. Worthless while soloing and crap while killing next to anything. When I get my procs up, the target mob is either dead or under 50% health and dies without my utility proccing a single time. Focused benefaction on the other hand is useful while I go to the fridge or take a ninja bio break. Why word it better? Does truth hurt?</span><div></div>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's the utility that <STRONG>allows</STRONG> us to do our job as well as you do. Without it we would be mediocre at best.. I know that may be what you want, but sorry sweetheart, it aint going to happen. :smileywink: Why do people have such a hard time getting that through their heads??</P> <P>You DO have the largest direct heals.. and Yes, your reactives are identical to the Inquisitor reactives at the same level.. and where the other priests have a form of utility, you have some form of a heal. The grass is NOT greener on the other side.. it's the same bloody shade :smileytongue: <BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>Yes, there is my 'utility'. Worthless while soloing and crap while killing next to anything. </SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, because evac really increases the DPS of Wardens and a 24% spirit of wolf helps a horse-borne shaman in what way?  How does invisibility assist during combat?  Even then, how does any other priest's utility assist during solo combat?  Invisibility can't assist during combat since it drops.  Likewise, Spirit of Wolf drops during combat.  Evac only helps in getting away from combat.  </P> <P>So, please tell me how your comment above regarding "worthless" combat utility does not apply to every single priest?  </P> <P>Even then...we're the only priest class which has utility that's even able to assist DURING combat.  </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 AM</span>

[nullcodehe]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>

[nullcodehe]

Also u fergot kendrike shamen cant slow dering combat and druid cant cast DS dureng combat and evac dosnt werk dering combat and other heal classes can even use wepens (bc wepens r hevy and templers get str buff).

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR>Also u fergot kendrike shamen cant slow dering combat and druid cant cast DS dureng combat and evac dosnt werk dering combat and other heal classes can even use wepens (bc wepens r hevy and templers get str buff). <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And <STRONG>you</STRONG> forget that the other priests don't have reactives, don't have proc heals, don't have Mit Debuffs, don't have odessy.. I'm sure I'm missing a couple others :smileytongue:

[nullcodehe]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 AM</span>

[Blast2hell]

Glory of combat is one of our Proc heals, that is something that single handedly makes Templars great.   (sorry this doesn't help templars who haven't received it yet).     Last night, we were in the sirens  Cave killing all the 57-58 sirens....don't think any are 59.    Group make-up was 56 monk 56 coercer, 54 ranger, 55 necromancer, 52 defiler and me 55 templar.       I have Glory of Combat on the Monk and The necromancers Pet.  As the ranger seems to not proc it very often.  Anyways.    I am a parser, and I always parse heals to see what I did in the fight....because if I'm not dpsing...what am I doing? hehe.     So,  I had to go afk for a bit....but my parser was still running,  it parses until combat stops for more then 6 seconds.    So the 52 defiler was all alone healing the group, but when I came back, I was happy to see that I had  healed 4k in HP during the few pulls they did while I was afk.   Now that made me laugh,  because even though I was AFK, I was still healing as a backup healer.  What a trip to think I can generate 4k in healing (possibly more, because full health bars can't be healed) while taking out the trash hehe.

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also u fergot kendrike shamen cant slow dering combat and druid cant cast DS dureng combat and evac dosnt werk dering combat and other heal classes can even use wepens (bc wepens r hevy and templers get str buff). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if thet makes u fel better than i am glad i culd help.  also themadol and phenoprenoprazine helps 2 keep the halusinations 2 a minimem</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Holy Crazy Spelling Batman!!     Can someone translate this pls? :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's the utility that <STRONG>allows</STRONG> us to do our job as well as you do. Without it we would be mediocre at best.. I know that may be what you want, but sorry sweetheart, it aint going to happen. :smileywink: Why do people have such a hard time getting that through their heads??</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You never know what's going to happen.  Not too long ago some would have said the end of locked encounters would never happen.  Hence it's good for people to express their views - within reasonable bounds - in hope that this may influence the way the cleric class evolves as the game progresses.</P> <P>As per my other posts, I'm not unhappy with templar soloing ability.  Seems fine to me.   I'm also not unhappy with my ability to heal.  This also seems to work fine to me.  </P> <P>However, I am not pleased with the general flavor and design of the templar in this game.  I don't care for *the way* we heal.  I would trade all this garbage for Remedy.  E.g., I don't need trick spells to heal people when the mob dies - *I* can do that.  I am a long term cleric player and this one feels much less like a cleric to me than prior ones.  I don't like smoke and mirrors healing schemes.  </P> <P>As for utility, they can have their mez and translocate spells too, and frankly, they can take the debuffs with them.   Give me Remedy, root, and fear, and maybe some undead specialty stuff.  I signed up to be a cleric.</P> <P>I am fine *for now*.  But I do not see this cleric keeping my interest for the long term, as my EQ cleric did, unless they evolve the class in a better manner.<BR></P>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's the utility that <STRONG>allows</STRONG> us to do our job as well as you do. Without it we would be mediocre at best.. I know that may be what you want, but sorry sweetheart, it aint going to happen. :smileywink: Why do people have such a hard time getting that through their heads??</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You never know what's going to happen.  Not too long ago some would have said the end of locked encounters would never happen.  Hence it's good for people to express their views - within reasonable bounds - in hope that this may influence the way the cleric class evolves as the game progresses.</P> <P>As per my other posts, I'm not unhappy with templar soloing ability.  Seems fine to me.   I'm also not unhappy with my ability to heal.  This also seems to work fine to me.  </P> <P>However, I am not pleased with the general flavor and design of the templar in this game.  I don't care for *the way* we heal.  I would trade all this garbage for Remedy.  E.g., I don't need trick spells to heal people when the mob dies - *I* can do that.  I am a long term cleric player and this one feels much less like a cleric to me than prior ones.  I don't like smoke and mirrors healing schemes.  </P> <P>As for utility, they can have their mez and translocate spells too, and frankly, they can take the debuffs with them.   Give me Remedy, root, and fear, and maybe some undead specialty stuff.  I signed up to be a cleric.</P> <P>I am fine *for now*.  But I do not see this cleric keeping my interest for the long term, as my EQ cleric did, unless they evolve the class in a better manner.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh ok I'm following ya now, revamp to the side, you just don't like templar design.  Because our spells for the most part work the same way.  Granted the Sign line is diffrent but it was totally worthless before...so those that think it's junk now must of thought that junky STR debuff really made a diffrence.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Were definately not EQ1 clerics, but no priest in EQ2 is.</P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Radar-X wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR>Sassyone, <BR><BR>actually we dont have even the highest heals. Ok, our single target heal heals for most hp per cast, but for example the inquisitor version heals more per time as it has shorter recast. Same for the group heal. Also inquisitors reactives are exactly the same as our reactives. All that is different are <STRONG>focused benefaction and our proc heals</STRONG>. So we are not even the best healers, we are the only plain healers. Other healers do the job as well as we do and have more utility to keep their playing interesting.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is your utility.</P> <P>A "plain healer?"   I think you could have worded that better. <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Proc heals do not get Templars groups. No-one ever says "Hey, we need little proc heals, we have to get a Templar". Not to even mention, they are boring, they give the player no control, they are not enjoyable. At least back in EQ1 days, clerics had root, so we could CC properly when needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sigh, I would happily accept loss of all the Mark spells, all the Involuntary spells, and all the Sign of.. spells, just for a single-encounter target root. *That* would be <STRONG>useful</STRONG> utility. Heck, even a single-mob root would be good (as long as it is a real root, one that actually has a reasonable chance of lasting 2 or 3 minutes).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Caethre on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Exactly what kind of groups are you in?  I've never seen a group go  "Hmmm now we MIGHT be able to use invisibilty so lets get a Necro" or "You know what would be great?  Being able to evac so lets get a Wizard."    DPS, Tank, and Healer are the basic mechanics of any decent group (read:  Not Raid).  Utility is the gravy on the class and normal groups (especially pick up groups) don't think much about it.   Again with the EQ1....   They gave us a mez if you want CC.   I could use the "We are healers not Enchanters" arguement for that and I'd prefer to still have my debuffs but the mez is useful every now and then.</DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Granted the Sign line is diffrent but it was totally worthless before...so those that think it's junk now must of thought that junky STR debuff really made a diffrence.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, I disliked that too =)  I want to be a frickin cleric.  Let the shammies and chanters debuff STR, let the chanters mez, let the wizzies and druids teleport people, and let me be a dang cleric =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not saying the Sign line is "worthless" - pretty close though.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nullcodehere wrote:<BR>Also u fergot kendrike shamen cant slow dering combat and druid cant cast DS dureng combat and evac dosnt werk dering combat and other heal classes can even use wepens (bc wepens r hevy and templers get str buff). <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The point raised was "utility" during combat.  I would argue that slows and damage shields are not merely utility spells at all - but rather directly applicable combat spells.  I can see the point being raised however that these spells are under the umbrella of utility, so it may as well be addressed.</P> <P>Firstly, let's discuss the mention to shamans.  Shamans are based around preventing damage before it ever gets to a health bar.  A great part of that is based around their ward spells.  Another part is based around their slows, which help cut down the amount of damage even coming toward a party.  </P> <P>Druids are based, in some part, on assisting a group take down opponents faster.  They already have the highest DPS of any priestly class, so adding in a shielding which harms opponents is merely par for the course here.  </P> <P>As far as evac "werk[ing] dering combat", I'd say that I've already addressed that.  Evac doesn't assist in combat.  It assists in getting <EM>out of combat</EM>.  It's not quite the same thing by my thinking.  I can see you feel differently.  </P> <P>As far as your comment that "<EM>other heal classes can even use wepens</EM>", I'd again wonder where it is written that we cannot?  Templars, at least Everquest insofar as Everquest Clerics go, have traditionally been adverse to spilling blood.  Therefore we use no piercing or slashing weapons (preferring to injure our opponents with horrific internal injuries presumably - heh).  Honestly, I don't even swing my hammer all that much these days and I'm certainly not going to discuss whether or not our melee skills make a massive difference in a Templar's primary or secondary responsibilities.  Feel free to start such a topic if you feel so passionately about it.  I personally do not.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I signed up to be a cleric.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Which cleric is that?  There's got to be hundreds, if not thousands of perspectives on what a "cleric" is.  Depending on which pen-and-paper RPG you played as a teenager, your ideas of what a cleric is are going to be skewed dramatically.  Did you MUD?  If so, the actual MUD/MUSH may alter your perception on what a "cleric" should and should not do.  Geography plays a role, as many cultures hold out the "pious, spiritual healer" to sometimes be a master of martial arts dressed only in cloth, to a powerful spirit conjuror defeating entire armies, to a steel-clad battle scion leading armies to the fray. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your idea of "cleric" is perfectly valid to you, and I can't possible argue against it.  However, in this game at this time, this is who we are.  If you disagree, then your choices are indeed limited.  I also know folks who want to play a Samurai...but they make due with Paladins. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I can't argue how you "feel" or what your definition of "fun" is.  I can only dispute facts.  Your opinions do not fall under that category, so we'll simply have to agree to disagree on whether or not an ability to command a person not to attack is a valid "cleric" attack.  I personally feel that it's always been a very "priestly" duty, whether you played Dungeons and Dragons ("Hold Person") or the first Everquest ("Enforced Reverence").  The implementation may seem a tad different, but the general "flavor" feels right to me.  Your own opinion on that obviously varies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Radar-X wrote: <DIV>Exactly what kind of groups are you in?  I've never seen a group go  "Hmmm now we MIGHT be able to use invisibilty so lets get a Necro" or "You know what would be great?  Being able to evac so lets get a Wizard."    DPS, Tank, and Healer are the basic mechanics of any decent group (read:  Not Raid).  Utility is the gravy on the class and normal groups (especially pick up groups) don't think much about it.   Again with the EQ1....   They gave us a mez if you want CC.   I could use the "We are healers not Enchanters" arguement for that and I'd prefer to still have my debuffs but the mez is useful every now and then.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You haven't??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been in countless situations where we needed invis to do something, and had to wait around until we could get a group invis caster, or just gave up as something was not possible without one. Now .. I wouldn't have chosen necro (for RP reasons, they are evil afterall <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), but a Swashbuckler or ... darn it ... a Fury would be fine. Sometimes single target invis is fine too, depends on what we needed invis for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been in less situations were Evac was actually wanted by the group in set-up, but it has happened a few times certainly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not that I am saying invis is right for Templars, or evac for that matter, they are not "templar style" abilities (and neither is mez, even in a pathetic useless form). There is a better case for root, however (eg look at EQ1).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is certainly not just "gravy". I've seen many groups collapse over such things not being present.</DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I signed up to be a cleric.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Which cleric is that?  There's got to be hundreds, if not thousands of perspectives on what a "cleric" is.  Depending on which pen-and-paper RPG you played as a teenager, your ideas of what a cleric is are going to be skewed dramatically.  Did you MUD?  If so, the actual MUD/MUSH may alter your perception on what a "cleric" should and should not do.  Geography plays a role, as many cultures hold out the "pious, spiritual healer" to sometimes be a master of martial arts dressed only in cloth, to a powerful spirit conjuror defeating entire armies, to a steel-clad battle scion leading armies to the fray. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your idea of "cleric" is perfectly valid to you, and I can't possible argue against it.  However, in this game at this time, this is who we are.  If you disagree, then your choices are indeed limited.  I also know folks who want to play a Samurai...but they make due with Paladins. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I can't argue how you "feel" or what your definition of "fun" is.  I can only dispute facts.  Your opinions do not fall under that category, so we'll simply have to agree to disagree on whether or not an ability to command a person not to attack is a valid "cleric" attack.  I personally feel that it's always been a very "priestly" duty, whether you played Dungeons and Dragons ("Hold Person") or the first Everquest ("Enforced Reverence").  The implementation may seem a tad different, but the general "flavor" feels right to me.  Your own opinion on that obviously varies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think there's a pretty widely held view of what a "cleric" is in an mmorpg of this type.  It's basically a powerful healer (not a smoke and mirrors healer) who can take a hit and who can fight "decently" and who has special abilities vs. undead.   I don't think it's a mezzer, translocator, debuffer.  Sure, some variation is absolutely fine.  There's always been that.  But simply putting abilities on cards and dealing them out around the table in an effort to be NOT EQ - as it appears was done here - doesn't make sense.  Tell me any logical reason why a cleric has translocate in this game.  There does not appear to have been much effort to preserve the historic character of classes ... it appears abilities were simply dealt around in this ill-conceived never-ending quest for "equality".  And geography shouldn't matter here ... this is a medieval fantasy lore game.  Sure, when I played AO I expected a healer to be drastically different.</P> <P>Anyway, as I said, I'm fine for now.  I like the game.  I am having fun or I wouldn't waste my time.  We'll see how it evolves.  I'm sure going to continue expressing my views on that in an effort to influence it.  Not too long ago I was in the minority on these boards calling for the end of locked encounters.</P> <P>"Command a person not to attack" is good spin =)   I guess odyssey is "command a person to go home and pray" eh <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sassyone]

<P>Im tired of typing all this crap 2 times and losing it all. Even the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] forums works against you. </P> <P>Short of it is....</P> <P>/agree Caethre/Felishanna TOTALLY</P> <P>Invis potions? yea right...they only work on mobs lvl 39 and below. Yes, it says 30+ but it stops at 40. Run thru Pillars of flame and find me one mob that doesnt see. </P> <P>Horses? well most raid zones dont allow it. Best to just buy SoW totems that way they work anywhere.</P> <P>Everyone talks about Templars Utility. Well, what utility? </P> <P>Mez line? Useless most cases. If you are lucky enough to land it and no one in the group hits the mob to break it...the mob stands next to you for the 12 sec and then beats on your azz after it pops off while you are waiting for the recast timer to pop again. </P> <P>Soothe? Hmm, let's see...can only use on one mob at a time sooooooooooooo, need I say more?</P> <P>Focus'd benefaction? Well, yea, if you put it on the MT when he is no less tha 40% so if the mobs beat on him too hard for the heal to compensate you have enough time to drop it, and cast that long azz recast timing LARGEST direct heal we heave. </P> <P>Proc heals? Glory is awesome as well as Atone..I agree. As for MoK and IC, they arent worth the space on the hotbar. In groups by the time you get them landed the mob is saying 'bye bye, nice meeting you' and hits the dirt. In raids, well, hmm...I am sure the MT loves a 41hp heal while the mob and sometimes buddies we are trying to take down are pounding him for 2k plus. That 41hp heal sure is gonna help..let me get right on it.../sarcasm off. </P> <P>You all talk about templars being the BEST healers. Well, IMO a good healer is one that has the capability of being flexible and working the unimaginable in times of normalcy and in emergency situations and succeeding in protecting the group they are in. IMO our recast timers dont allow that soooooooooooo, we need a 2nd healer to stay successful. A babysitter I call it. Because I cant be trusted alone to ensure my group survives. I have to decide most times who to let die and keep up. I dont like that idea nor the situation. The numbers I pulled from a link that Duntzzz posted speak volumes:</P> <P>Healing Line<BR>Classes: Temp / Inqu / Ward / Fury / Myst / Defi<BR>Cast:    2      2      1.5    1      2      2<BR>Recast:  6      4      5      5      5      6<BR>Power:   1.16x  1x     1x     0.8x   1x     1x/1x<BR>Heal:    8.65x  7.5x   8.5x   6x     7.5x  8.65x</P> <P>Warden heal over time specifics: (4x + 0.75x / 6s)</P> <P><BR>Arch Healing Line<BR>Classes: Temp / Inqu / Ward / Fury / Myst / Defi<BR>Cast:    3      3      3      1.5    3      3<BR>Recast:  11.5   8      10     8.5    10     11.5<BR>Power:   2x     1.65x  1.65x  1.32x  1.65x  1.65x/1.65x<BR>Heal:    15x    12.5x  15x    10x    12.5x  15x</P> <P>Warden heal over time specifics: (6x + 0.75x / 12s)</P> <P><BR>Group Healing Line<BR>Classes: Temp / Inqu / Ward / Fury / Myst / Defi<BR>Cast:    3      3      2.5    1.5    3      3<BR>Recast:  9      6      7.5    7.5    7.5    9<BR>Power:   2.32x  2x     2x     1.6x   2x     2x/1.5x<BR>Heal:    9.89x  8.57x  10x    6.86x  8.57x  9.89x</P> <P>Warden heal over time specifics: (4.75x + 0.75x / 6s)</P> <P>EDIT: They are or have increased/increasing wardens heals and lowering cast times on their heals by this time. </P> <P>We are always compared mostly to inquisitors. Well, the inquisitor has the most sufficient spam healing ability out there. Bar the Furies, which I dont even want to get into because it makes me want to /cry. The inquisitor with their recast timers can throw out and land almost 3 of their healing line heals before I can even get the 2nd of mine landed AND they can continue to spam and not wait on recast times. As long as they have good regen, good drink, and the mana sieve spell going (SOE finally fixed ..grats!) they can heal till their hearts content. Between our cast/recast timers, and mana cost IMO we dont even measure up. </P> <DIV>I basically throw everything out there but the kitchen sink to keep things going and people up and doing their jobs. Most times I lose someone. Do I like that? No. Will I get use to it? No. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see it this way...they took a class that was envied for the past 8-9months and trashed it. Balancing is one thing. I agree with the balancing. What I do not agree with is taking all from one class and giving nothing in return that is useful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Does all this mean I want to have THE largest heals? Be the BEST healer in this game? No. I just want better recast timers. That is it in a nutshell. Take the useless mez and soothe back...fix the recast timers and I am a happy camper. I just want the chance to be successful...with those recast timers..we dont have that. period..It's a fight everytime you decide to hunt. You are already on a losing end and have to fight to gain ground. IMO of course..and we all know what they are like. </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sassyone on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 AM</span>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>Invis potions? yea right...they only work on mobs lvl 39 and below. Yes, it says 30+ but it stops at 40. Run thru Pillars of flame and find me one mob that doesnt see.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just letting you know on this.. Invis is the same for every class (well if you don't count sneak / hidden) Any caster that casts Invisability on you is the exact same as using a totem.. the totem no longer has a level cap on it.. They added a LOT of mobs in PoF with see invis, but not see hidden.. Use a totem, or use a casters invis and you will see that the exact same mobs see through it.. actually buy a totem and head to Naga island in PoF.. you will see that none of the mobs on that island will see you with the Totem on, and they are level 55-56.. Invis is now the level of the caster, not the spell. Every class that had upgrades to the invisibility spells had them removed, and they all have their ONE invis spell that they get at level 12ish to last them for the rest of the game.</P> <P>Your post was true before LU13, but now it is identical to getting an Invis cast on you by a mage / fury.. and you can carry it in your pocket =P .. If you don't believe me, I guess you'll still have to have to cary around that gnome fury in your backpack for the group invisy.. but they can get heavy, and eat all yer food.</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>Invis potions? yea right...they only work on mobs lvl 39 and below. Yes, it says 30+ but it stops at 40. Run thru Pillars of flame and find me one mob that doesnt see. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I call shennigans.  I routinely carry two Totems of the Chameleon, and I've been using them without issues in Sinking Sands and Pillars of Flame for weeks.  Just last night I was using them to run old quests in Lavastorm and Everfrost.  Yes, there's more creatures that see through invisibility - but they see through ALL forms of it.</P> <P>IN FACT, there was one spot in Lavastorm that I simply couldn't get to the quest target I wanted to because of a single goblin that could see invisibility.  I found a safe spot, dropped invisibility, SOOTHED the goblin, used my totem again, and wandered right past the group that contained that goblin.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[nullcodehe]

<DIV>last nite i was in a grp and everyone rand out of food so i summend them all food.  i felt liek a hero</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gchang wrote:<BR><BR> <P>"Command a person not to attack" is good spin =)   I guess odyssey is "command a person to go home and pray" eh <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>From the updated description of Sign of Weakness / Debility / Impairment:  <EM>"Places an impairment on the target that pacifies them, preventing them from making normal combat attacks. The pacify effect will break if the target receives any damage."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds pretty "cleric" to me, personally.  As I play as a Templar of Marr, I prefer the "command" spin.  Your own personal opinion will most certainly vary on the subject.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blast2hell wrote: <p>Oh ok I'm following ya now, revamp to the side, you just don't like templar design.  Because our spells for the most part work the same way.  Granted the Sign line is diffrent but it was totally worthless before...so those that think it's junk now must of thought that junky STR debuff really made a diffrence.  </p> <p>Were definately not EQ1 clerics, but no priest in EQ2 is.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Awww, I liked the old sign of weakness line.  I still haven't gotten very far as a templar, but I found that quite useful when I had no tank and was grouped with a bunch of squishies.  Even with the best healing in the game, it can be tough to keep the squishy casters up.   I found it most useful against those heroic mobs that like to hit hard.  I don't know how useful if was farther up in the progression, but I would be much happier to have it back. I know what you're thinking, NO I do not want it back so I can cast it, turn auto-attack on while I run and grab a coke.  NO, I never did that.</span><div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR> <P><BR>Oh ok I'm following ya now, revamp to the side, you just don't like templar design.  Because our spells for the most part work the same way.  Granted the Sign line is diffrent but it was totally worthless before...so those that think it's junk now must of thought that junky STR debuff really made a diffrence.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Were definately not EQ1 clerics, but no priest in EQ2 is.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Awww, I liked the old sign of weakness line.  I still haven't gotten very far as a templar, but I found that quite useful when I had no tank and was grouped with a bunch of squishies.  Even with the best healing in the game, it can be tough to keep the squishy casters up.   I found it most useful against those heroic mobs that like to hit hard.  I don't know how useful if was farther up in the progression, but I would be much happier to have it back.<BR><BR>I know what you're thinking, NO I do not want it back so I can cast it, turn auto-attack on while I run and grab a coke.  NO, I never did that.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hehe, well while an encounter wide STR debuff was nice....the problem was the amount it reduced STR for was so minor compared to other debuffers that in the end game it was a waste of time to cast almost.

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sassyone wrote:<BR> <P>When a person would rather do the mundane work of harvesting vs hunting alongside friends ..there is a problem. I do not find the templar fun anymore and if it were not for the friends I have in game, I would trash it. Lvl 56 Templar and I get sick and tired of watching group members die because I am waiting on long azz recast timers and then get 'what happened here?' Why did I die? Were you afk? Why didnt you heal me? blah blah blah. </P> <P>I understand healing classes needed balanced. But gutting a class that was basically all about healing just to satisfy the other classes sucks. I hear all the classes talk about 'I lost this but got this in return, so all is good' . Well, Temps gave away and got nothing. There is no real reason or advantage to choose a templar for groupage vs another healing class. We offer nothing to the group other than expected death and the long wait on that heal that is needed seconds before it can be landed. All the other healer classes have utility to offer a group and dont talk to me about we received the mez line..it's useless unless you are soloing. Soothe is a joke. We have heals that is it. Yes we have one of the highest heals, BUT we wait 11.5 sec on the recast. Do they not realize how many group members can die during that time? I will be lvling my Temp to 60 (only because I am in a raiding guild) then I will be shelving it. If I decide in those next 4 levels it's just not worth it anymore. I will seriously consider retiring altogether.  </P> <P>I did not take this game on to be stressed, frustrated, and chewed out due to deaths every night. My money is worth more than that. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with you, Sassy.  The problem is the timers.  There is just too long of a time after using what you have, that are you are sitting there not healing but you are the healer.  During the downtime of waiting for a heal timer to reactivate, the tank can take in much damage from a challenging encounter.  This causes the healer to react quickly and throw everything at the tank in an attempt to recover from lost time.  If several people are being attacked, the intercession line is much too slow of a cast to keep them all alive and the healer finds himself apologizing to the player they had to sacrifice.  Group heal doesn't do much when several cloth wearers have mobs attacking them and doesn't do much for the MT at all.  The fate line is only good when the mob dies.  I find myself using reverence lately a lot.  We apologize because they know we have power, yet could not save them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see many updates addressing other healer issues, I'm just waiting to see if these templar timers are going to be adjusted because they should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would also like to see the harmony timer adjusted as we receive much healing aggro, sometimes even immediately after casting a harmony effect and need to wait 5 minutes, which is a painful wait, to recast it again if I remember correctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adept III's do make a big difference but I'm assuming that all healers cannot afford such luxuries at the time they achieve the level.  Reducing the time waiting between heals would help those people particularly, I'm sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every update I rush in to see if they addressed it and I just shake my head that nothing is listed for Templars.  It boggles my mind, honestly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And don't feel alone.  Our guild lost about 10 people since the revamp so all is definitely not as well as some are reporting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope SOE addresses these and other fixes that need to be made before more go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heal stacking was a issue I realize needed to be first, but this one needs some investigation too.  We shall see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And oh yeah, the root spell we've been yelling for, too!  /wink Caethre</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:24 PM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blast2hell wrote:    So the 52 defiler was all alone healing the group, but when I came back, I was happy to see that I had  healed 4k in HP during the few pulls they did while I was afk.   Now that made me laugh,  because even though I was AFK, I was still healing as a backup healer.  What a trip to think I can generate 4k in healing (possibly more, because full health bars can't be healed) while taking out the trash hehe. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well GoC _can_ heal 4000 points with 2 procs. Mine procced twice yesterday during 3h of grouping. Total amount healed was about 300 points. Sorry, but utility that has %-chance to proc, is not worth anything. It is far too unreliable to be counted on. It can make our lives easier, but like the proc says, it can be a lifesaver in uder 5% of the cases. Now how many will go and fight with that kind of odds?</span><div></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**<BR><BR>In the past we were limited by power, while that is often the case still, on hard fights it can be now the timers that kill the group, while we still have plenty of power.   For other arts/classes that has always been the case, but for healing I never had a problem prior to LU13 with this - it was always running out of power, or a hit too big to heal.<BR><BR>If this is an intentional planned change by the developers I would like to go on record as saying it is so incredibly frustrating when it happens (and it only happens to me in groups where it causes other players to die), that it will be the primary reason for me to leave.<BR><BR>The second issue with time, is how much of it, other NICE utilities save you:<BR> <UL> <LI>SoW and Invis - just getting around without this, now that base run speeds have dropped considerably is a lot slower and more painful.<BR></LI> <LI>Evac - naturally I'm noticing this just a bit more than usual as I'm doing the BBC heritage quest, but it saves a lot of time leaving a zone, and is a darn site safer than trying to synchronise QoC or odyssey people, even with the odyssey timer reduced.  In combat it is also a frequent group lifesaver.</LI> <LI>DPS  - killing a mob takes us a long time.<BR></LI></UL>Our major utility spell Soothe, can be used as a limited form of invisibility, if you cast it before the mobs sees you, if it doesn't resist/goforyourthroat, if there is only one mob you need it on, if there is a safe place to drop chamelon and you have enough charges to re-engage it afterwards, if you don't step too close to the mob as you pass, if you can afford to be stationary cast it .....<BR><BR>The third issue with time, is that now templars are not 'the' healer we are finally being forced to solo, and we are slower at it than other class I've seen or played. <BR><BR>I fully agree with all healers having as EqualAsSonyCanMakeIt healing, but given that, dps/utility needs to be looked at.  Now, not in another 9 months.<BR><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=1700" target=_blank><SPAN></SPAN></A> <P>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <SPAN class=date_text>10-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:30 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 AM</span>

[Nari]

Blast2Hell, So the STR debuff is no good for the end game.  I can understand that.  Is its replacement any good for the end game?  I am so far from the end game, I don't know why I ask. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I find that whole pacify/soothe marginally useful.  Useless even when you are paired with a trigger-happy elf. (Can't get rid of him, you guys would be hearing about the first case of a woman being sent to sleep on the couch!) <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR>    So the 52 defiler was all alone healing the group, but when I came back, I was happy to see that I had  healed 4k in HP during the few pulls they did while I was afk.   Now that made me laugh,  because even though I was AFK, I was still healing as a backup healer.  What a trip to think I can generate 4k in healing (possibly more, because full health bars can't be healed) while taking out the trash hehe. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well GoC _can_ heal 4000 points with 2 procs. Mine procced twice yesterday during 3h of grouping. Total amount healed was about 300 points.<BR><BR>Sorry, but utility that has %-chance to proc, is not worth anything. It is far too unreliable to be counted on. It can make our lives easier, but like the proc says, it can be a lifesaver in uder 5% of the cases. Now how many will go and fight with that kind of odds?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>twice in 3 hours of grouping?   Either you don't know who to cast it on, or your not casting it.  I put mine on a monk and any other melee in group.  Thing goes off many times on every single encounter.   Your doing something drastically wrong, or you don't know how to tell when it procs.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, a 5% proc rate is large enough.  That means, if you cast it on a melee, 1 out of 20 swings will trigger the proc.   You ever count how many times a melee hits the encounter in a fight?  Do the basic math work and you will see that 5%  (10% if you cast on two people)  will go off on most encounters multiple times..</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 PM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 3devious wrote:<BR>Blast2Hell,<BR>So the STR debuff is no good for the end game.  I can understand that.  Is its replacement any good for the end game?  I am so far from the end game, I don't know why I ask. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>I find that whole pacify/soothe marginally useful.  Useless even when you are paired with a trigger-happy elf. (Can't get rid of him, you guys would be hearing about the first case of a woman being sent to sleep on the couch!)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmm I've never really been a defender of the ability in it's current form, but the old form was junk for sure.    The sign line could be useful if you get people that can avoid hitting added encounters, but generally speaking, tanks switch to adds to build aggro, which they should.   So I don't use the spell much.  I actually only use it when I know the tank's aggroed the addds and then switched back to the main.    In the end, I do believe the spell design is a bit difficult to implement, and part of it is because there's no solid way for your group members to tell you cast it.   All it does is stop melee auto attack.   It doesn't stop combat arts or spell, or even stop them from moving, so basically your the only one who might even know it's casted heh.</P> <P> </P> <P>I do use the soothe line a good bit to hold off triple up adds from joining the fight.  This helps me not have to heal like mad to fend off the added damage.  I wish it were encounter based though instead of one target, because for me it's only use is to keep triple up's from adding or to keep nearby adds from aggroing during rez sessions.</P>

[Nari]

I only ask because I just want to make sure I am not missing something.  Some dwarven templars are quite dense, you know. <div></div>

[Blast2hell]

I would say sign of weakness is not useful in a raid....(raid is what I think of when referring to end-game).   As a priest you need to put all your concentration on healing and debuffs if you have them....changing targets to cast a spell that can be done by an enchanter so much better would be silly.   So no, the new version of this spell has no real use on endgame content.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blast2hell wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Blast2hell wrote:    So the 52 defiler was all alone healing the group, but when I came back, I was happy to see that I had  healed 4k in HP during the few pulls they did while I was afk.   Now that made me laugh,  because even though I was AFK, I was still healing as a backup healer.  What a trip to think I can generate 4k in healing (possibly more, because full health bars can't be healed) while taking out the trash hehe. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Well GoC _can_ heal 4000 points with 2 procs. Mine procced twice yesterday during 3h of grouping. Total amount healed was about 300 points.Sorry, but utility that has %-chance to proc, is not worth anything. It is far too unreliable to be counted on. It can make our lives easier, but like the proc says, it can be a lifesaver in uder 5% of the cases. Now how many will go and fight with that kind of odds?</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>twice in 3 hours of grouping?   Either you don't know who to cast it on, or your not casting it.  I put mine on a monk and any other melee in group.  Thing goes off many times on every single encounter.   Your doing something drastically wrong, or you don't know how to tell when it procs.  <div> </div> <div>In addition, a 5% proc rate is large enough.  That means, if you cast it on a melee, 1 out of 20 swings will trigger the proc.   You ever count how many times a melee hits the encounter in a fight?  Do the basic math work and you will see that 5%  (10% if you cast on two people)  will go off on most encounters multiple times..</div> <p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class="date_text">10-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Right... It was on a conjurer dps pet and on our berserker mt. I have no idea why it only procced twice, but the fact makes it far too unreliable to be counted as any kind of useful means to heal someone in a sticky situation.</span><div></div>

[Blast2hell]

a proc effect isn't designed to counteract sticky situations.  The 5 spell lines that all priest share are though.   I recommend you create a chat tab that has only heal spell spam in it. Examine the exact amount GoC procs for, and then watch for that number in that tab, course if nobody is hurt for an amount equivalent to GoC heal you may have trouble.    In a 3 hour session though, putting it on the people you just stated, the spell shouldd easily proc over 100 times.

[Kiara-]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>I'm reading through this thread and seeing some rather disturbing statements.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Stuff like, we're still the best healers....  We aren't the best healers anymore....  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>And I'm thinking to myself "Wow.  I just read this on the guardian boards!"  Okay well not exactly, but the same theme is running through a lot of the threads I'm seeing.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>And at the risk of being flamed to hell and back I'm finally going to toss in my nickel's worth.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>I understand that most of us are used to things being a certain way in the game.  They've been that way since close to release and we've all adjusted to the roles as we've defined them.  The problem with this is, that since the days of the Moorgard Index and the pre-beta (OMG WE CAN'T WAIT FOR THE GAME OMG OMG HURRY UP ALREADY) boards, SoE has been saying the same things over and over and over again.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>This is not EQ1.  Things will not be the same.  Roles will not be the same.  We don't want a repeat of the holy trinity for groups.  We don't want clerics being the only acceptable healers and the others being red headed step kids (yes I'm paraphrasing.  sue me).  Likewise with warriors, etc.  They've been saying it since the beginning.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>In beta, they had all the priests start off with all the lines of healing.  Then they took them away and separated them out close to release to get people used to having the roles spread out some.  People were [Removed for Content] as hell because they'd adapted to a certain way of playing.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>The problem we're all running into here is that we've adapted to one way of playing, but the way we've adapted is not the way that the game was intended to be.  We've fallen into the old EQ1 molds.  And yes this is partially the fault of unbalanced and incorrectly implemented spells and such for our characters.  They did not intend for the cleric lines to heal any better or worse than the druid and shaman lines.  However this is what happened.  It was broken.  Not nerfed, but now working as intended.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>The other problem, is that in balancing and making things fit the way they were originally intended to be, causes some imbalance.  It's something that takes time.  EQ1 took years to get classes balanced to their and our satisfactions.  Hell they're still doing it.  This is a live game.  It's a massively multiplayer online role playing game.  And yes, I feel the need to point this out, because so many seem to forget this.  It's a living, growing sort of thing.  It is not stagnant.  And people are human and make mistakes when coding and implementing and trying to fix.  You have to have patience.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>I've been around in EQ2 for a long time.  Not as long as some, but almost since the inception of the pre-beta boards.  I was around in EQ1 from about a month after release (and yes it was buggy as hell and unbalanced, but still the best game I've ever played).  I've seen both games evolve.  They will both continue to evolve.  But please, make no mistake.  They are drastically different games.  And that is what SoE is trying to make happen.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>If you aren't having fun, I'm sorry.  I will assume that you have tried to adapt to the changes and still aren't enjoying yourself.  So then by all means, take a break.  Play something else for a while.  Come back in a few months when things settle out a little more and try again.  That's the beauty of things like this.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#cc99ff>In parting, I'm going to repeat that SoE always intended for all the healing classes to heal equally well but in different ways.  Just like the fighting classes are meant to tank equally well, in different ways.  Etc.</FONT>  </FONT></DIV>

[kenji]

<DIV>del</DIV><p>Message Edited by kenjiso on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 PM</span>

[mc10]

<DIV>from some coments ive seen...all healers heal the same amount but diff ways......</DIV> <DIV>so does that mean we all play the same....if so we should all have the same combat abilities as well....</DIV> <DIV>so if your so happy with being the same in one area ,why not be unhappy about the inbalance in other areas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this game just cant be balanced....so that means some need to be better at one thing.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if what was said is true...then i want to xp as fast as the rest....</DIV> <DIV>but u know what, i dont think i mind being a tiny bit slower doing solo if im the better healer....</DIV> <DIV>i picked templar because of the healing...not because i liked what others had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>groups are quite rare at min for me....so solo........forget solo at lvl 48....so do harvesting waitng for groups..or friends to invite.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>need a server merger....more players=more groups=more fun..........guild not doing raids no idea why...all lvl 50 up </DIV> <DIV>playing alts now..low lvl....i think some guilds need to merger....might be to hard for some to take.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All this caused by one upgrade.....</DIV> <DIV>what was the forums like before the upgrade as i had no need to come here....as i was playing all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best part of game at min is the few friends i still have left online....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps all those who like the upgrades why are u on posting all the time.????...if i had so much fun as before u would not</DIV> <DIV>see me posting so often....and those who said game was to easy before....you should have tryed healing the average</DIV> <DIV>tank with out all the top gear...and played in diff groups.....i would help any group out, did not matter what he could afford to buy</DIV> <DIV>or what lvl spells ....i healed all........</DIV> <DIV>Im the type of player that heals anyone i see with low health....i mentor to help anyone....I am one of those players with little money....im a templar knight.....hehe its only a game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by mc10cc on <span class=date_text>10-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:05 PM</span>

[rtoub]

<P>ps all those who like the upgrades why are u on posting all the time.????...</P> <P> </P> <P>Two reasons:</P> <P>To learn and get ideas on how to better play my charactor.  Plus I can keep up with updates and opinons.  I would suck pretty bad if I hadn't incorperated the ideas I have read in the forums into my playing style.</P> <P>Also, I can't play at work but I can read the forums on my breaks.</P> <P>Some people enjoy the forums just as much as playing.  It is a community.</P>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiara wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#cc99ff>In parting, I'm going to repeat that SoE always intended for all the healing classes to heal equally well but in different ways.  Just like the fighting classes are meant to tank equally well, in different ways.  Etc.</FONT>  </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Obviously, 99%+ of us didn't play in beta.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd confidently predict, 99%+ of us didn't scour the boards when we purchased EQII, to sift thru thousands of posts and dev statements, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, what is pretty obvious as well is, 99%+ of us did indeed buy the game, load it, create characters, and PLAY the game. We played it in varying amounts for TEN WHOLE MONTHS, and developed classes we loved, based on the the definition, roles and relative strengths of those classes IN THE GAME.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If SoE had 'always intended' as you said, why did it remain otherwise FOR TEN MONTHS? Why did they let us all build characters, spend so much time on and develop characters, based on a charade, when they later intended to move the goalposts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, it is so much nonsense to say, "SoE always intended ...". The reality was all that mattered, as that was what we played in for almost a year. And now, our character choices and all that time invested feel like they have been cheapened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't choose an average healer with low DPS, poor avoidance which is forever interrupted, and no utility that I consider of value (for me, no, I consider the 'mez' and the proc heals are not things I value for the most part). Had I been presented with Templar as it is now, at launch, I'd have laughed at how poor it was, and chosen Fury in a heartbeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I did choose was the clearly best healer, with functioning armour, with the admitted other limitations listed above. The two advantages have been taken away, and all the disadvantages remain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, in as far as expectation management goes, this was a failure. And spending another year levelling up a Fury now does not seem appealing. That is why so many of us remain unhappy, one month on after LU13.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will still play my Templar. But I do not have to feel it is balanced or at all what I chose, and indeed, do not feel it is either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<P>(Edit:  Posting as it's own thread)</P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiara wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#cc99ff>In parting, I'm going to repeat that SoE always intended for all the healing classes to heal equally well but in different ways.  Just like the fighting classes are meant to tank equally well, in different ways.  Etc.</FONT>  </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm sorry, it is so much nonsense to say, "SoE always intended ...". The reality was all that mattered, as that was what we played in for almost a year. And now, our character choices and all that time invested feel like they have been cheapened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm having trouble understanding this mindset of "We've invested our time."   You don't own anything but your time and from all the accolades you give our class before LU#13 it sounds like fun so it wasn't time wasted.   Your character, your items, your spells all belong to SOE and it is at their whim what to do with them. </P> <P>I don't really want to be the one to quote an old cliche but this really is just a game not a mutual fund. <BR></P>

[Kiara-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Caethre wrote:<BR></P> <P>A lot of whiny stuff.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>I know that a good portion of people didn't play in beta.  Not a big deal to have played in beta.  Just drawing a correlation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Yeah so.  You bought a game and liked that it was flawed.  I liked being an uber healer too.  But ya know what?  I like the vision of the game the devs have too.  It's a game.  I play it for fun.  When it is no longer fun I won't play it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>You've invested your time and energy into a game.  Good for you.  So have I.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Yes, I'm a big fat geek.  I scoured the message boards for well over a year before the game even released.  I scoured the boards for nearly 10 months or so before it went to beta.  I've invested my time and energy into the game too.  I'm not knocking the time you've put in, so why are you knocking the time I've put in?  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>SoE wants the game to go a certain way.  Yes, it's flexible and open to change.  But they have a concept they want to pursue.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#cc99ff>And you know something... ten whole months of broken systems isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.  This game is built for longevity.  It will change and grow over the years.  You may not like all the changes.  And you know what?  I honestly don't care what you think.  I like the game and I like what they are trying to do with it.</FONT>  </FONT></DIV>