Templar revamp problem : Case and point

[xyriel]

<DIV> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Now before flaming starts, this is my point of view and my perception of my class. <SPAN> </SPAN>You may or may not agree but I doubt I’m the only one with this perception.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I post it here in the hope that someone from SoE will read it and act on it. However, comments are welcome; even if you want to flame me.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I have a 51 templar and after LU13, I feel this class as lost a lot of usefulness.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I did not have a chance to prove my point before yesterday. <SPAN> </SPAN>Here is what happened; I’ll let you draw your own conclusions. However, I think I’ll play my alt for a while; I’m too frustrated to play the templar again.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Monday, 1 week ago: I have a group of friends that decided to play alts on Monday nights together. We have a nice mix: I have a Bezerker(21). My friends have Templar (24), Ranger (22), Swash (23) , Wizard (26), Ranger (23). Last week, after a couple of weeks of solo grinding to level them, we decide to do armor quests. Most of the mobs were yellow to me.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We had 3 group wipes. The reason : when the going got tough, the templar couldn’t keep me alive.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The guy with the templar has a level 53 main and also had a level 65 cleric in EQ1. He got pretty frustrated with his char that night.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Last weekend, the guy with the Templar decides to scrap the templar and start a fury. With some help (and a few collections), he levels his fury to level 21 by Monday night. So he’s ready to play his Monday night’s alt. We have a no show (a ranger), so we’re only 5. Same mobs at the same levels. Never died once.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Not only that, wasn’t even close to die, even when we got multiple adds. He was seldom below 40% mana. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Draw the conclusions you want. For me, it only confirmed what I thought. Time to play something else.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>

[SenorPhrog]

Thanks for putting up your opinion and sharing your experience.  I personally just hit 47 Templar and I think I've adjusted pretty well.   I was in Cazic Thule Saturday night with a 48 monk, 49 Necro, and 41 Bard and had almost no issues moving around in there.   One group wipe due to 3 groups of lvl 48 mobs but other than that I had no issues.   Am I saying you are wrong and Templars are better than you are making them out to be?   Yes.  Is that just my opinion?  Yes.   Are you wrong for your opinion being the way it is?  Absolutely not.  If you aren't able to play the class and have fun then yeah I guess it might be time for you to switch it up.

[Blast2hell]

I can't disagree with the original poster, because a templar in the 20's is a diffrent game then I've played with my templar since the revamp.   I've mentored down to 24 though and grouped with my brother who plays a guardian.   We only did solo content and were fine....but maybe the level 20's needs more review.  I thought the early 20's would be better off considering there reactive is on a 7 level progression then instead of 14.  Although  not having a lot of the other key templar spells such as the fate line, and GoC I can see would cause me some issues heh.  But I'm willing to wager there isn't enough input in regards to the early 20's, so they may be way out of wack.

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>The guy with the templar has a level 53 main and also had a level 65 cleric in EQ1. He got pretty frustrated with his char that night.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a couple of questions.. I'm not here to flame.. What class is his level 53 main? is it a Templar? and also.. Having a Level 65 Cleric in EQ1 has nothing to do with how you play a Templar, or any priest for that matter in EQ2. (Just need to state that again for the record, because too many people believe that EQ1 has anything in common with EQ2 other than lore, and some UI features) They are totally different playstyles.. Maybe I'm just suggesting that the Fury fit his style of play better than the Templar did.. Faster casting smaller heals may be what he is able to manage as opposed to slower casting Heals / Reactives and having to plan when to land what and not "over heal". Also, I don't remember when the actual "Hell Levels" are for Templars.. but every class has a couple levels before they receive their new heals about every 15 or so levels that make them much weaker healers compared to the mobs they're fighting.</P> <P>Just trying to get perspective here, not trying to flame.</P> <P><BR>Also, need to know spell quality.. I don't think you listed that in your OP. All Adepts, All App's? it makes a huge difference, especially at the lower levels now.</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>The guy with the templar has a level 53 main and also had a level 65 cleric in EQ1. He got pretty frustrated with his char that night.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a couple of questions.. I'm not here to flame.. What class is his level 53 main? is it a Templar? and also.. Having a Level 65 Cleric in EQ1 has nothing to do with how you play a Templar, or any priest for that matter in EQ2. (Just need to state that again for the record, because too many people believe that EQ1 has anything in common with EQ2 other than lore, and some UI features) They are totally different playstyles.. Maybe I'm just suggesting that the Fury fit his style of play better than the Templar did.. Faster casting smaller heals may be what he is able to manage as opposed to slower casting Heals / Reactives and having to plan when to land what and not "over heal". Also, I don't remember when the actual "Hell Levels" are for Templars.. but every class has a couple levels before they receive their new heals about every 15 or so levels that make them much weaker healers compared to the mobs they're fighting.</P> <P>Just trying to get perspective here, not trying to flame.</P> <P><BR>Also, need to know spell quality.. I don't think you listed that in your OP. All Adepts, All App's? it makes a huge difference, especially at the lower levels now.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactly.  It's entirely possible that if your friend was used to playing a Templar prior to the changes and did not fully adjust post-revamp, then simply starting a new class and playing from level 1 on was enough to help him "acclimate" to a new role.  </P> <P>Mileage is certainly going to vary from player to player.  Perhaps some playstyles are simply better fitted to a druid than a cleric.  Perhaps others should choose shaman.  Others still may want to steer away from healing at all.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What class is his level 53 main? is it a Templar? and also.. Having a Level 65 Cleric in EQ1 has nothing to do with how you play a Templar, or any priest for that matter in EQ2.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Totally right. His main is not a templar and EQ1 healers have nothing to do with EQ2.  Only pointed it out because I wanted to specify he wasn't a newbie in RPGs.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Also, I don't remember when the actual "Hell Levels" are for Templars.. but every class has a couple levels before they receive their new heals about every 15 or so levels that make them much weaker healers compared to the mobs they're fighting.</DIV> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Perhaps that's the problem of my templar. Maybe level 50 - 51 - 52 are Hell levels for templar.  I heard from a few friends that once we hit 54 and 58, it's not as bad. I just feel very frustrated because I feel I lost capacity in combat change. The reactives were halved making me more dependent of splash heals that at the same time are on long timers. I thought it was just me but when I saw with my alt that a level 21 fury could do better than a level 24 templar, that's was the last drop.  Some time off might help get better perspective.</P> <P>Thanks for the constructive comments.</P> <P>*afrustratedtemplar*</P> <P> </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blast2hell]

I can say 54 makes the game a lot easier.  The new reactive is taken as the Master 2 spell because all other choices are pretty silly.   And this new reactive does so much better against the damage your tanks will be taking.   I've said this on some other boards, they need to have another reactive issued at level 47, because Greater Intersession is way too weak in the 50-53 game.

[Andu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>Mileage is certainly going to vary from player to player.  Perhaps some playstyles are simply better fitted to a druid than a cleric.  Perhaps others should choose shaman.  Others still may want to steer away from healing at all.  </p> <hr></blockquote> It doesn't matter what someones playstyle is if they have managed to get a templar to level 53. Clearly, before the upgrade his playstyle was suited to a templar and if the bloody upgrade has made it so that people dont want to play any more then it has to be acknowledged that in some way it has failed. I loved this game but since DoF came out the gaps between me logging in have widened to the point I havent played in a week. I've now just resigned from my guild and cant see myself logging in for a long time. In the past Ive been as big a fanboi as the next man but there is seriously a problem with what has been done to the game. My guild has lost 15 active players since the upgrade, 3 of them templars. Now I know this isnt the kind of empirical data you are looking for Kendricke but having read most of your recent posts, frankly I dont think any data is going to convince you. However, you may like what has been done in the combat upgrade but there are a <b>lot </b>people who don't and they are quitting this game slowly but surely. It's time for the likes of you and Radar-X to stop defending what has been done (in a really patronising manner I would add, as if you are the only people who can play the class "properly") and at least acknowledge that there <b>are</b> problems and if something isn't done to address them soon then this game is going to wither away. Bigmak raised a lot of good points in his thread, as have others. Now I accept that the way he posts is going to attract flames, but the content is generally sound. Templars are now a very boring class to play, on the whole and people are leaving the game faster than they would have done otherwise. The heady days of EQ1 where it didn't matter what SOE did as there was no competition is gone. Vanguard, DDO, Guild Wars, hell WoW are going to eat into that subscription base until there are just the fanboi's left. And Asherons Call 2 amongst others have shown that that is just not a viable model for the long term. </span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>It doesn't matter what someones playstyle is if they have managed to get a templar to level 53.</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>His level 53 main is not a Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[rtoub]

<P>I think there are two seperate issues people are confusing.  One is the class balanced and playable.  The other is how enjoyable the class is to play.  One is universal the other is personal preference.  The first we can disagree with but the second is different for every person.  Pretty hard to convince somebody they are having fun when they aren't.  </P> <P>I think Templars are relatively balanced and definately playable.  I got into some tough situations last night and survived with only a few deaths and one one wipe.  This was against stuff I considered tough before the combat changes.  I really felt for the first time since the changes that I was playing above average and beyond the normal class of play.  I am currently 53 and I keep hearing how it is easier to heal at 54.  I know at 51 and 52 I was having lots of trouble.</P> <P>Still I have to say I am not playing as much as before.  I think some of it has to do with the expansion and some with the changes in the class.  So I am not having as much fun, but I can play the charactor.  Something about the game isn't the same, I wish I could put my finger on it but I can't.</P>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rtoub wrote:<BR> <P>I think there are two seperate issues people are confusing.  One is the class balanced and playable.  The other is how enjoyable the class is to play.  One is universal the other is personal preference.  The first we can disagree with but the second is different for every person.  Pretty hard to convince somebody they are having fun when they aren't.  </P> <P>I think Templars are relatively balanced and definately playable.  I got into some tough situations last night and survived with only a few deaths and one one wipe.  This was against stuff I considered tough before the combat changes.  I really felt for the first time since the changes that I was playing above average and beyond the normal class of play.  I am currently 53 and I keep hearing how it is easier to heal at 54.  I know at 51 and 52 I was having lots of trouble.</P> <P>Still I have to say I am not playing as much as before.  I think some of it has to do with the expansion and some with the changes in the class.  So I am not having as much fun, but I can play the charactor.  Something about the game isn't the same, I wish I could put my finger on it but I can't.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think this is a good take on the situation.  Unlike some here, I have no complaints about my templar's (40) soloing ability.  Seems to me he solos very well.  Is it slower than some classes.  Yup.  Does that seem appropriate to me. Also yup.  Is my templar pretty well balanced overall.  Yup ...... and /yawn</P> <P>I prefer my largely non-soloing EQ cleric in every other respect, and he lasted me from 1999 until I "retired" in 2004.  I felt like a cleric there.  Healing was challenging and great fun.  There is something wrong in EQ2.  Some of it is simply related to game mechanics, zones, and such, and I won't address it here in the templar forum.  But some of it directly relates to class design. </P> <P>I don't know what I am in EQ2, but it sure doesn't feel like a cleric.  It feels like some peculiar hybrid of many classes.  The entire templar healing scheme in EQ2 is simply weird and screwy.  I don't want all these oddball heals.  Combining all these peculiar spells to get a healing scheme working is not amusing.  You feel like a smoke and mirrors artist.  Oh, let me see ... let me cast Spell A which has a 5% chance of Effect B happening when Event C happens.  Then I will add Spell D which does Effect E when Event F happens.  Give me a break.  I'd trade every one of them in for Remedy in a heartbeat.  I also don't want mez spells, miscellaneous debuffs, and odyssey.  Those are not cleric abilities - never were, never will be.  Give them to who they should belong to and give me back my heals, fear, root, and undead abilities.  Stop trying so hard to be NOT EQ and do things that make sense.</P> <P>And stop trying to make everyone equal.  All this striving for equality is going to kill this game.  In what world is anyone equal.  This is supposed to be a world.  Let it be like one - not some totally artificial game environment created by the EEOC.  Despite it's problems at least EQ felt like a world.  And if you want to be a cleric then be one and be given the powers that a cleric should have.  If you want to be a druid or shammy, ditto.  Clerics, druids, and shammies SHOULD be different, and the whiners who pick one and then whine to be another should simply be told to pick the class they prefer and shut up about it.<BR></P>

[VikodiN]

<P><FONT color=#ccffff>I guess it's SoE's definition of what a Templar is that many of us don't enjoy (while others enjoy the changes after the CU).  For some reason, I am not having fun playing my Templar anymore.  My overall feeling is that healing now seems more like a race of button smashing than trying to determine what heals work best with which mobs.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Unless fighting ^^^, I find it useless to cast debuffs ... I have defeated solo encounters within the same timeframes with and without my debuffing.  I did not notice any change in my fight times with Adept I spells.  The only conclusion I have put together is Adept III and Master I spells are the wave of the future ... with each costing 2+pp a pop.  Now, I do have some money to purchase spells.  I only question why have AppI-IV at all?  To me, Adept I now feels like an AppI spell from the past.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Plate wearing class without parry and crappy mitigation ... Yes, we can concentrate on Mitigation or Stats but not both.  I have not found many decent pieces that will add to our wisdom, intelligence, and mitigation ... which is what a Templar (in my opinion) should concentrate on.  I find it useless that we are able to wear plate.  Why not just give us light armor instead of pretending we are offensive healers by allowing us to equip plate?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I feel I am more of a pure caster these days with my constant spamming of heals and waiting for timers to refresh.  I am no longer comfortable taking hits because when I take hits in this day and age, either I or my tank usually ends up dead.  Dunno, I just feel something is missing or perhaps I just haven't found the right combination to make a Templar an enjoyable healing class.  I was hoping players would not need to endlessly harvest rares for months just to equip their Templars so they can be average (average today now equals AdeptIII spells).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Always improve those weaker than you ... nerfing only makes things worse across the board.  Sorry but this line came to mind.</FONT></P>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <p>Exactly.  It's entirely possible that if your friend was used to playing a Templar prior to the changes and did not fully adjust post-revamp, then simply starting a new class and playing from level 1 on was enough to help him "acclimate" to a new role. </p><hr></blockquote>You have my backing 100% Kend! I am in full agreement with you here. Too many Templars are having a hard time adjusting to the combat changes, cry that their class sucks and start something else from scratch and gloat how much better it is... When it comes to plate tanks, Templars remain the best suited class to handle them. </span><div></div>

[oni]

<P>i started my templar just befor combat change so i dont have the same bases of old to new that many of you do. However I enjoy playing templar very much, being only level 30 though.  At this stage in my templars life I have little problems keeping others alive, and in fact I end most fights with more power to spare then any healer i have played yet (Mystic and Fury). </P> <P>I think it comes down to the fact that the reactive heals are more in line with my game style and the tank i play with compliments that.  </P> <P>One thing i do agree with though on what i have read about many classes after combat change is that if its not fun to play then dont play it. I for one am here to have fun, and if a class is more of a strugle with little or no reward for me i will move on and wish those that enjoy it well. I do see however the frustration of getting a class to a high level then having it change on you, leaving you in that situation. </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VikodiN wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I guess it's SoE's definition of what a Templar is that many of us don't enjoy (while others enjoy the changes after the CU).  For some reason, I am not having fun playing my Templar anymore.  My overall feeling is that healing now seems more like a race of button smashing than trying to determine what heals work best with which mobs.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Unless fighting ^^^, I find it useless to cast debuffs ... I have defeated solo encounters within the same timeframes with and without my debuffing.  I did not notice any change in my fight times with Adept I spells.  The only conclusion I have put together is Adept III and Master I spells are the wave of the future ... with each costing 2+pp a pop.  Now, I do have some money to purchase spells.  I only question why have AppI-IV at all?  To me, Adept I now feels like an AppI spell from the past.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Plate wearing class without parry and crappy mitigation ... Yes, we can concentrate on Mitigation or Stats but not both.  I have not found many decent pieces that will add to our wisdom, intelligence, and mitigation ... which is what a Templar (in my opinion) should concentrate on.  I find it useless that we are able to wear plate.  Why not just give us light armor instead of pretending we are offensive healers by allowing us to equip plate?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I feel I am more of a pure caster these days with my constant spamming of heals and waiting for timers to refresh.  I am no longer comfortable taking hits because when I take hits in this day and age, either I or my tank usually ends up dead.  Dunno, I just feel something is missing or perhaps I just haven't found the right combination to make a Templar an enjoyable healing class.  I was hoping players would not need to endlessly harvest rares for months just to equip their Templars so they can be average (average today now equals AdeptIII spells).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Always improve those weaker than you ... nerfing only makes things worse across the board.  Sorry but this line came to mind.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I understand what you are saying but would you not agree its at least a bit more challening?  Determining types of heals in situations used to involve single reactive + group reactive = Tank is healed.   <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Adept 3 and Master 1's being the "wave of the future" I have to disagree and would ask you to look again.   Now granted I don't know what server you play on or your level range (on my server its near impossible to find spell upgrades for high levle 40's sometimes) but I do know they jacked up the rare drop rate.   Adept 3's should be dropping in price and its been noticeable even on my server so just be a little patient with it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>VikodiN you are also one of the "old school" Templars coming from deep rooted time in this game and have been here since launch.  I respect that you aren't having fun and honestly thats enough reason to try something else but I encourage you to try some different techniques and maybe avoid soloing whenever possible to increase your fun ratio.</DIV>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>oni wrote:<p>i started my templar just befor combat change so i dont have the same bases of old to new that many of you do. However I enjoy playing templar very much, being only level 30 though.  At this stage in my templars life I have little problems keeping others alive, and in fact I end most fights with more power to spare then any healer i have played yet (Mystic and Fury). </p> <p>I think it comes down to the fact that the reactive heals are more in line with my game style and the tank i play with compliments that.  </p> <p>One thing i do agree with though on what i have read about many classes after combat change is that if its not fun to play then dont play it. I for one am here to have fun, and if a class is more of a strugle with little or no reward for me i will move on and wish those that enjoy it well. I do see however the frustration of getting a class to a high level then having it change on you, leaving you in that situation. </p><hr></blockquote>Another satisfied Templar, wow, there must be something wrong with our class =D j/k</span><div></div>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<P>I was level 25 before the combat changes and took a break from the game for a couple of months and recently returned. I've leveled up to 34 now and have adjusted to some of the changes made. Mind you, at my level there wasn't much to adjust to other than rearranging my hotbars <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Anyhoo, I was in a group of mid-30's killing feral blightrats in Rivervale last weekend. At the time I was only level 32. I kept them alive. There were times where people died, but it was because they grabbed aggro from overnuking and only god himself could have healed that player quickly enough. Though I kept them alive, I STILL had to burn an entire bar of mana each pull. I tried different tricks to help ease the mana drainage though and that helped... primarily buffing the entire group with a reactive heal while the tank ran back with the pull.</P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OlaeviaTraisharan wrote:<BR> <P>Though I kept them alive, I STILL had to burn an entire bar of mana each pull. I tried different tricks to help ease the mana drainage though and that helped... primarily buffing the entire group with a reactive heal while the tank ran back with the pull.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think part of the problem is that you Have to use all of your power in some situations.. Before the revamp it was easy for most priest classes to solo heal a group against very hard targets, and only use a quarter of their power bar.. That to me states that something is wrong.. if you are fighting challenging targets, there's no reason why you should not be using your entire power bar to end the fight.... there's nothing more frustrating than having a group with 2 healers in it, and one is constantly OOP, and the other barely puts a dent in their bar.. That's how it was before the revamp.. Clerics, and Wardens could hit the hardest targets possible, and barely put a scratch in their power bar, where as Shamen, and Furies would burn through their entire bar for 50% of the fight, and then watch their groupmates die..</P> <P>It's not as easy as it was before, but I personally think it's more enjoyable to have to fight to keep a group alive, as opposed to being in "happy safe land" all the time [Removed for Content] 98% power and never having to think about power management unless in a long raid situation.</P> <P>It does make for more skilled players in the long run as you have to think about what you're doing every time you go to cast a spell.<BR></P>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Duntzzzz wrote:<p>It's not as easy as it was before, but I personally think it's more enjoyable to have to fight to keep a group alive, as opposed to being in "happy safe land" all the time [Removed for Content] 98% power and never having to think about power management unless in a long raid situation.</p> <p>It does make for more skilled players in the long run as you have to think about what you're doing every time you go to cast a spell.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Excellent post!</span><div></div>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR> <P>part of the problem is that you Have to use all of your power in some situations.. Before the revamp it was easy for most priest classes to solo heal a group against very hard targets, and only use a quarter of their power bar.. That to me states that something is wrong.. if you are fighting challenging targets, there's no reason why you should not be using your entire power bar to end the fight.... there's nothing more frustrating than having a group with 2 healers in it, and one is constantly OOP, and the other barely puts a dent in their bar.. That's how it was before the revamp.. Clerics, and Wardens could hit the hardest targets possible, and barely put a scratch in their power bar, where as Shamen, and Furies would burn through their entire bar for 50% of the fight, and then watch their groupmates die..</P> <P>It's not as easy as it was before, but I personally think it's more enjoyable to have to fight to keep a group alive, as opposed to being in "happy safe land" all the time [Removed for Content] 98% power and never having to think about power management unless in a long raid situation.</P> <P>It does make for more skilled players in the long run as you have to think about what you're doing every time you go to cast a spell.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There were situations where I had all my heals on timers and had to cancel focused benefaction because the named was hitting stronger than the heal given by focused benefaction. All my heals are adept 3 or master 2 (single reactive).  I strongly beleive from what I saw here the problem is on the scaling of spells.   The single reactive I use at level 51 is the same than the one at 44.  When trying to heal a tank 55 that's getting hit by a named 57, the 44 spell is just not cutting it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spells need to either scale more as you go up or give an upgrade of the reactive heals every 5 levels instead of 10.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>There were situations where I had all my heals on timers and had to cancel focused benefaction because the named was hitting stronger than the heal given by focused benefaction. All my heals are adept 3 or master 2 (single reactive).  I strongly beleive from what I saw here the problem is on the scaling of spells.   The single reactive I use at level 51 is the same than the one at 44.  When trying to heal a tank 55 that's getting hit by a named 57, the 44 spell is just not cutting it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The spells need to either scale more as you go up or give an upgrade of the reactive heals every 5 levels instead of 10.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is a problem with all of the Priest classes.. there are 1-3 "Hell levels" when healing about every 10-15 levels.. where the spells do not keep up with the damage comming in.. this is not a Templar only bug. I agree that we should get more "Healing" upgrades (Wards / reactives / HoT's / Direct heals) sooner rather than later. Once you hit the level 54 range it does start to turn around as you get MUCH better heals and can easily handle the damage that is comming in. On the flip side of this .. for every 1-2 hell levels, you have 1-2 "God levels" when you get your new spells.. if upgraded right away you are way over the ability of the mobs damage.. it does equal out in the end :smileywink:<BR>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>On the flip side of this .. for every 1-2 hell levels, you have 1-2 "God levels" when you get your new spells.. if upgraded right away you are way over the ability of the mobs damage.. it does equal out in the end :smileywink:<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not really, I don't think the fun factor should be a roller coaster of fun and boredom.  They need to even it out so the game is fun at all levels.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Eileithia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Not really, I don't think the fun factor should be a roller coaster of fun and boredom.  They need to even it out so the game is fun at all levels.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I know it's totally personal preference, but Fun and Easy to me don't really mix.. I like challenge, and I actually find the "Hell levels" more "Fun" just because I'm struggling more.. but again.. it's totally personal preference.. I don't find things that are too easy "Fun". :smileywink:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Which is why I gave up my Templar way before the revamp to play my Defiler)</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR> <DIV>The single reactive I use at level 51 is the same than the one at 44.  When trying to heal a tank 55 that's getting hit by a named 57, the 44 spell is just not cutting it. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>At level 51, you're trying to heal the tank against a level 57 named - a red named.  That's part of the problem right there.  Sure, it's only yellow to the tank (which itself denotes MUCH more difficulty post-revamp than pre-revamp), but you're simply out of your league there.  IF you're able to down a named yellow/red at that point, then so much the better, but you simply can't consider that the baseline you should be measuring against.  A major point of the revamp was for con colors to mean much more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>At level 51, you're trying to heal the tank against a level 57 named - a red named.  That's part of the problem right there.  Sure, it's only yellow to the tank (which itself denotes MUCH more difficulty post-revamp than pre-revamp), but you're simply out of your league there.  IF you're able to down a named yellow/red at that point, then so much the better, but you simply can't consider that the baseline you should be measuring against.  A major point of the revamp was for con colors to mean much more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Named was orange not red. So maybe it was 56.  However, an orange mob with a full group 53-54 (I was the only 51) should be doable. If we're doomed to hit yellow / white / blue mobs, this game has taken a turn for the worst.  <BR>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR><BR>Named was orange not red. So maybe it was 56.  However, an orange mob with a full group 53-54 (I was the only 51) should be doable. If we're doomed to hit yellow / white / blue mobs, this game has taken a turn for the worst. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Per developer commentary over the past month:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR>Oranges are supposed to be a major challenge. Solo oranges should push the limits of soloers, and group oranges should push the limits of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were witnessing a lot of players mowing through oranges, so we upped them a bit. High-con mobs aren't meant to be the default targets you fight, unless you have all the resources necessary to take them on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the last few days of beta we gave players an extra mitigation advantage against blues and lower. Now there is an additional mitigation penalty when facing oranges and reds. Oranges are still killable if you have the resources needed to compensate for that, of course.<BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR> <P>The intent is that if you're in an average group of non-uber players, you're probably taking out blues and whites. If you're in a very good group, you're taking out whites and yellows. If you're in an exceptional group, you might throw in the lowest con of orange as well.</P> <P>High oranges and reds, though, should be deadly. So we'll make them that way.</P> <P>Again, mobs that much higher than you aren't intended to be fodder. Especially when most players are still in the process of learning to play their class effectively with all the new changes, it's advisable to stay conservative with your selection of opponents.<BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Yellow and Orange con targets (especially those which have undercon indicators - up arrows) are not to be considered baseline targets.</P>

[rtoub]

<P>A good solid group with Apept III's Masters and some Fabled equipment can take Yellow and some Orange.  Also if you have some higher level Tank and DPS in the party you can take Yellow and Orange.  But the baseline charactor is going to be fighting blue and white, with an occational yellow depending on the abilities of the mob.</P> <P>Fighting Orange most of my spells are resisted so they really aren't worth casting.  Heals can't be resisted so I can still do my job and keep the party up.  But the Tank has to be higher level so the have usefull mitigation and avoidance, or you need enough higher level DPS to burn the mob down before anybody takes too much damage.</P>

[Spri]

<P>I play a level 25 templar. I duo most days with an even level'd guardian. His gear is mediocre at best. On most fights, we can handle anything thrown at us. That is, multiple "solo" targeted mobs and up to two ^^^ heroic mobs, where the mob is blue or green.</P> <P>White con heroic, we can handle one, and at the end of the fight we are  a bit weary, but in one piece.</P> <P> </P> <P>Templar can handle healing groups as long as A)the group plays with a bit of common sense and B)your tank is able to maintain aggro and doesn't wear all grey con armor.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Don'y give up hope. We are still a good class.</P> <P> </P>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>At level 51, you're trying to heal the tank against a level 57 named - a red named.  That's part of the problem right there.  Sure, it's only yellow to the tank (which itself denotes MUCH more difficulty post-revamp than pre-revamp), but you're simply out of your league there.  IF you're able to down a named yellow/red at that point, then so much the better, but you simply can't consider that the baseline you should be measuring against.  A major point of the revamp was for con colors to mean much more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Named was orange not red. So maybe it was 56.  However, an orange mob with a full group 53-54 (I was the only 51) should be doable. If we're doomed to hit yellow / white / blue mobs, this game has taken a turn for the worst.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As Kendricke stated the con colors are meaning something now and Orange is supposed to be a risky at best.  I have yet to be able to take an Orange Heroic target with the group of regulars in the upper 40's that I group with.  SOE (with good reason) wants to increase the difficulty of their content to keep people from blowing through it and actually wants to providie a challenge to its playerbase.</P> <P>Also as SOE has stated some of the named and raid mobs are not working at the difficulty they are intended to at this point.   Now saying that they may make the changes and you still can't take the named out but a named group of Orange con I can see as a difficult or near impossible target.    If you were talking about a unnamed regular group of targets that were heroic I'd say maybe it should be possible but extremely difficult to kill.   Then again all this is just me talking.</P>

[Sinnester]

<P>Do I enjoy playing my templar still?  Yes.  Do I feel templars are balanced with other healing classes?  Yes, but there are tweaks that need to be done.</P> <P>My templar is fully capable of keeping a whole group alive, or a main tank in a raid.   I can fully understand how templars playing with adept I's and lower would be having a hard time keeping a group alive.  You really need to invest in adept III's for the majority of your spells.   Equipment also means alot more now.     </P> <P>Someone mentioned hell levels.  While lvling up to 60 I found lvl 53 and lvl 56 to be the slowest.  Levels 51 thru 53 were harder to heal at because you don't get many good upgradeable spells till 54.  After lvl 54, you can take on being the sole healer in a group again.</P> <P>We need some tweaks.  We need heal stacking looked at again.  Some of the new spells we have are just fantastic - like Sanctuary.  Sanctuary makes us very needed in raids.  Our Focused Benefaction is once again great.   Our in-battle rez is now good, but could be a little less on the recast.  Marks line could use a boost and we could get rid of one of those useless mez's.  I really would like to see us receive at least one in-combat power increase spell.</P> <p>Message Edited by Sinnester on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR> <P>Do I enjoy playing my templar still?  Yes.  Do I feel templars are balanced with other healing classes?  Yes, but there are tweaks that need to be done.</P> <P>My templar is fully capable of keeping a whole group alive, or a main tank in a raid.   I can fully understand how templars playing with adept I's and lower would be having a hard time keeping a group alive.  You really need to invest in adept III's for the majority of your spells.   Equipment also means alot more now.     </P> <P>Someone mentioned hell levels.  While lvling up to 60 I found lvl 53 and lvl 56 to be the slowest.  Levels 51 thru 53 were harder to heal at because you don't get many good upgradeable spells till 54.  After lvl 54, you can take on being the sole healer in a group again.</P> <P>We need some tweaks.  We need heal stacking looked at again.  Some of the new spells we have are just fantastic - like Sanctuary.  Sanctuary makes us very needed in raids.  Our Focused Benefaction is once again great.   Our in-battle rez is now good, but could be a little less on the recast.  Marks line could use a boost and we could get rid of one of those useless mez's.  I really would like to see us receive at least one in-combat power increase spell.</P> <P>Message Edited by Sinnester on <SPAN class=date_text>10-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Total agreement.   Stacking issues, especially in raids is in dire need of review.   Love our 50 rez now for it's full hp return, but wish I could cast it faster.  I think even on a faster recast it would be balanced since if your rezzing the dead your not healing the tank...and this should cause a balance of risk  vs. gain.</P> <P>The mark line kills me, I don't know if many templars realize how poweful that spell was before.  all templars in my guild had it at master 1, and we would rotate who had it up during the raid because it generated 176hp every 4 seconds on people who proced the effect.  The thing was, if an AE hit, the whole raid could proc the effect.  You can imagine how much healing power 176X24 every 4 seconds is...this spell was a god.   Now it's a shadow of it's former self.  I'd gladly give up the 20% rate for a 5% proc rate on mark and quadruple the healing power.</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR> <P>Do I enjoy playing my templar still?  Yes.  Do I feel templars are balanced with other healing classes?  Yes, but there are tweaks that need to be done.</P> <P>My templar is fully capable of keeping a whole group alive, or a main tank in a raid.   I can fully understand how templars playing with adept I's and lower would be having a hard time keeping a group alive.  You really need to invest in adept III's for the majority of your spells.   Equipment also means alot more now.    </P> <P>Someone mentioned hell levels.  While lvling up to 60 I found lvl 53 and lvl 56 to be the slowest.  Levels 51 thru 53 were harder to heal at because you don't get many good upgradeable spells till 54.  After lvl 54, you can take on being the sole healer in a group again.</P> <P>We need some tweaks.  We need heal stacking looked at again.  Some of the new spells we have are just fantastic - like Sanctuary.  Sanctuary makes us very needed in raids.  Our Focused Benefaction is once again great.   Our in-battle rez is now good, but could be a little less on the recast.  Marks line could use a boost and we could get rid of one of those useless mez's.  I really would like to see us receive at least one in-combat power increase spell.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>One of the best posted opinions I've seen so far on the subject from anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dwor]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dworkk wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=3>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And your point is? <p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <P>Athian, I think his point is obvious, though I'll be surprised if his post lasts now we have an active moderator (something that is nice to see, as long as he is even handed, which I expect he will be). But I'm not sure what yours is by your post, sir?</P>

[Eileithia]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[dwor]

<DIV>Well For someone that says i should get my facts straight , maybe you should look in the mirror. If you read my post you will find I am not the one that didnt know that our DD has a stun built into it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I have never said that our class is unplayble. I have stated that our class is no longer fun to play. </DIV><p>Message Edited by dworkk on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 AM</span>

[SenorPhrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dworkk wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=3>Not meant to be a flame, But I really don't care if its taken as one. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I get the feeling that  SoE could nerf everyone till templars are using bandage skill from EQ1 and hitting mobs with feather dusters and Kendricke would still be spout his drival that everthing is great and that I can play my class and you are clueless nonsense.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That was pretty good considering it's "not meant to be a flame."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not always eye to eye on how Kendricke feels but even that 1% of the time I'm not he still is one of the most rational people I see posting around here.</DIV>

[Gcha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duntzzzz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> **PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS** <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Let’s not go off the deep end here with the warm and fuzzy. I don’t happen to agree with many of the posts here, but there are quite a few people who DO feel there are glaring problems, regardless of whether one particular poster says so.  No one poster here is the final arbiter of what’s a glaring problem, and sometimes it seems there is getting to be a lot of "talking down" by some regular posters in this forum. <P>Without naming any names, whenever you start hanging around one of these forums you see posters who appear to always attack everything, and posters who appear to always defend everything. Some express themselves better than others, but that’s beside the point. Both lose credibility over time due to their propensity to either blanket attack or blanket defend.</P> <p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 PM</span>

[Wildi]

<P>**PLEASE WATCH THE LANGUAGE WHEN POSTING**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[dwor]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[Jida]

Please /rerail this post.. No more bickering. Personal attacks are worthless and fix nothing. Thank you, Elder <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR>Please /rerail this post.. No more bickering.<BR><BR>Personal attacks are worthless and fix nothing.<BR><BR>Thank you,<BR><BR>Elder<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Agreed.</P> <P>Whether you like me or not, or respect my opinions or not, I'd appreciate it if the energy spent pointing out flaws in my personal posting style was spent perhaps on pointing out flaws in my actual arguments.</P> <P> </P>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Folks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets get this topic back on track and lets not start a flame war. It's been a good conversation so far so keep up the good work!</DIV>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xyriel wrote:<BR><BR>Named was orange not red. So maybe it was 56.  However, an orange mob with a full group 53-54 (I was the only 51) should be doable. If we're doomed to hit yellow / white / blue mobs, this game has taken a turn for the worst. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Per developer commentary over the past month:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR>Oranges are supposed to be a major challenge. Solo oranges should push the limits of soloers, and group oranges should push the limits of groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were witnessing a lot of players mowing through oranges, so we upped them a bit. High-con mobs aren't meant to be the default targets you fight, unless you have all the resources necessary to take them on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the last few days of beta we gave players an extra mitigation advantage against blues and lower. Now there is an additional mitigation penalty when facing oranges and reds. Oranges are still killable if you have the resources needed to compensate for that, of course.<BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV><BR> <P>The intent is that if you're in an average group of non-uber players, you're probably taking out blues and whites. If you're in a very good group, you're taking out whites and yellows. If you're in an exceptional group, you might throw in the lowest con of orange as well.</P> <P>High oranges and reds, though, should be deadly. So we'll make them that way.</P> <P>Again, mobs that much higher than you aren't intended to be fodder. Especially when most players are still in the process of learning to play their class effectively with all the new changes, it's advisable to stay conservative with your selection of opponents.<BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Yellow and Orange con targets (especially those which have undercon indicators - up arrows) are not to be considered baseline targets.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I stand corrected <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Though I do want to add that the mob in that specific instance was yellow to everyone but me.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by xyriel on <span class=date_text>10-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

[Creppie]

<DIV>I just thought I'd give my clerical cousins my perspective.  Before LU13 clerics could almost totally rely on their reactives to keep group members alive.  It was easy and imo quite boring at times.  Since LU13 I find that I use my direct heals at least 3 times as much as I used to.  Some of that is becasue my single target reactive is starting to reach its shelf life date.  It's more of a challenge which means more fun for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't speak to what you may or may not have lost with LU13, but in regards to keeping your group alive, a lot of the trouble seems to be that people are not willing to change their playing styles or try new tactics.  You have to remember that <FONT color=#ffff99>everyone </FONT>was affected with the update so what the other classes do during combat does have an impact on how easy/hard your job is.</DIV>

[xyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Creppie wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just thought I'd give my clerical cousins my perspective.  Before LU13 clerics could almost totally rely on their reactives to keep group members alive.  It was easy and imo quite boring at times.  Since LU13 I find that I use my direct heals at least 3 times as much as I used to.  Some of that is becasue my single target reactive is starting to reach its shelf life date.  It's more of a challenge which means more fun for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't speak to what you may or may not have lost with LU13, but in regards to keeping your group alive, a lot of the trouble seems to be that people are not willing to change their playing styles or try new tactics.  You have to remember that <FONT color=#ffff99>everyone </FONT>was affected with the update so what the other classes do during combat does have an impact on how easy/hard your job is.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree that playing a templar is a lot more challenging that it was before. That part I appreciate as long as it doesn't hinder my capacity as a healer.  I was always a player that likes to push the limits of what can be done.  I won't build a full group to kill stuff I can handle with 3 players. So, more often than not, I end up with higher level players (maybe a couple of levels) and hit stuff that is at my limit personnaly but not to the limit of the group. </P> <P>Before LU13, that challenged me and I have relative success. After LU13, I think I'm too limited. I accepted to sacrifice part of my solo game for better group advantages. Don't get me wrong, we can solo just fine like other classes.  We are just not as efficient as others.  It takes more time, xp is slower.  On the flip side, I am expecting a lot more group advantages. I don't see that now.  That works 90% of my game time.  But the real fun is in that 10% when hell breaks loose and where the templar could save the day.  I can't really do that anymore.  </P> <P>Now, I'm not a person that brings problems without solutions.  What can it be?  Better insta spells (the ones on long recast)? Very large heal on 30 minutes timer? 10 seconds group invicibility 30 minutes timer? Special spells that are only usefull in large combats (stacking marks?) ?  We're missing something.  </P> <P>I've played this char since day 1 of EQ2 and now I'm 51. I've played EQ1 before that as a healer also.  I feel like we're missing something in the "oh-my-god-we-are-all-going-to-die" moments.  We had it before, we don't have it anymore.  The revamp took that ability away.  </P> <P>I don't want to save the day every 10 minutes. It can happen once or twice a night. I want to have some tools to be able to do it.</P> <P> </P>

[Kiara-]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>The fact of the matter is, that people do not like change.  But that's what life is about, that's what games like this are about.  Adapt.  Change.  Learn to play within the parameters given you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>Ask yourself if the class is balanced within what it is meant to be (thank you Kendricke I do believe for pointing this out a while back and if not Ken, then sorry to whomever I just misquoted).  You can't compare it to what it once was, because that is not how it was meant to be.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>So the con system means something now.  That's good.  Because if a mob is an orange con and says you should have two or more people then ffs you should have to have two or more people.  THIS IS NOT A BAD THING HERE FOLKS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>People starting the game today will not have the same problems the rest of us have had.  Just like the people that didn't play in beta didn't have problems when they changed the priest class spell line when the game went live like those who did play in beta did.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#cc99ff>If the class is truly unplayable, they'll fix it.  But challenging and requiring adaptation of skill sets.... that's not unplayable.</FONT></DIV>

[Luey]

Just a thought on the OP.  I've never played a warden, but my understanding is they have heal over time and of course direct heals... this out of all healers makes them most similar to an EQ1 cleric as far as healing goes doesn't it?  Especially where grouping is concerned where there is no Complete Heal becuase by the higher end an EQ1 cleric didn't usually use CH in a group. I'd expect them to have an easier time on a warden if this is the case. <div></div>

[Barodur_]

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text>I somewhat agree with the OP. I do feel however some changes were needed...just not totally sure it's worked out properly yet. I've played a Templar as my main since a couple weeks after launch and have loved it. I agree totally with many others that before...it was just too easy to keep people alive. I took a month off due to RL circumstances and was eager to get back to the game only to find that there had been quite a few changes made to my class. I noticed a lot of spells were linked, I'm missing debuffs, some spells do different things, have a few new ones, etc. Anyway, I go through it, and feel that I'm adjusting ok with the changes. I'd been in several groups and managed alright, but I have noticed problems here and there. Last night I was grouped in RV killing NB heroics, main tank was a 45 guardian. We had a necro, wizard, warden, and a brigand. All of similar lvl. During the night we had a few close calls and a couple near wipes, but that's to be expected if you're fighting something challenging, and dying in this game is so trivial it doesn't stress me. It's not like the days of old doing a corpse run for hours or sitting naked and bleeding waiting on a rez. Anywho, back to the point, the warden was out-healing me pretty significantly and to top it off the necro was even throwing 500 hp heals here and there (I wasn't aware you guys could do this....nifty) and I'm chain casting my two best direct heals trying to keep up with the damage the guardian takes. Warden gets aggro first, I can't keep her up. Aggro back on guardian...I'm chain casting direct heals, reactives....waiting on the recast for each since they're all linked now, threw on my insta heal, no good....in the end I was near oop and we evac'd to run back to shards. It's pretty frustrating when you're throwing heals like a madman and you still have to sit and pray that that recast time will wear off so you can throw another one just in time to keep the tank up. The reactive didn't seem like it was healing at all, and my directs were barely making up for the damage the guardian was getting. All in all, I logged off feeling a little frustrated. I don't mind that I was out healed by a druid. But I don't feel I was doing or even could do as good as the druid. Therein lies the problem - I don't feel equal. Is it just because I feel my heals are a bit lacking? No...I don't feel the templar class has adequate dps neither. This problem is tantamount and apparent now that we seem to have lost our debuffs. My gear is not the best, but it's not the worst. I don't have all my spells at Adept 3, most are Adept I. I would call myself the "average" player. Taking that into consideration, it takes me a good chunk of time to solo a mob using HO's even. Is that intended for the templar? Maybe...ok. But I've noticed on my sorceror I can burn mobs down in the blink of an eye and barely have to stop for power. On my zerker, it's a slugfest, but I can still manage to solo more effectively than on my main. Maybe I just need to harvest for hours on end hoping to find some rares to sell so that I can upgrade all my heals to Adept 3. Maybe I'm just better suited to play a dps class and I'm all wrong. I'll figure it out as I go. But in the meantime, I don't think it would hurt for SOE to take a look at the figures to see if perhaps they didn't hit a little too hard with the nerf bat.</SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Barodur_04 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:51 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Barodur_04 on <span class=date_text>10-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[TheOnlySariah]

It could be worse, you could be a <EM>warden. </EM>Sorry, after all the problems us wardens have been having especially now that templars are preferred in groups over wardens I thought I'd see what was going on on the Templar boards. <p>Message Edited by TheOnlySariah on <span class=date_text>10-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barodur_04 wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>I somewhat agree with the OP. I do feel however some changes were needed...just not totally sure it's worked out properly yet. I've played a Templar as my main since a couple weeks after launch and have loved it. I agree totally with many others that before...it was just too easy to keep people alive. I took a month off due to RL circumstances and was eager to get back to the game only to find that there had been quite a few changes made to my class. I noticed a lot of spells were linked, I'm missing debuffs, some spells do different things, have a few new ones, etc. Anyway, I go through it, and feel that I'm adjusting ok with the changes. I'd been in several groups and managed alright, but I have noticed problems here and there. Last night I was grouped in RV killing NB heroics, main tank was a 45 guardian. We had a necro, wizard, warden, and a brigand. All of similar lvl. During the night we had a few close calls and a couple near wipes, but that's to be expected if you're fighting something challenging, and dying in this game is so trivial it doesn't stress me. It's not like the days of old doing a corpse run for hours or sitting naked and bleeding waiting on a rez. Anywho, back to the point, the warden was out-healing me pretty significantly and to top it off the necro was even throwing 500 hp heals here and there (I wasn't aware you guys could do this....nifty) and I'm chain casting my two best direct heals trying to keep up with the damage the guardian takes. Warden gets aggro first, I can't keep her up. Aggro back on guardian...I'm chain casting direct heals, reactives....waiting on the recast for each since they're all linked now, threw on my insta heal, no good....in the end I was near oop and we evac'd to run back to shards. It's pretty frustrating when you're throwing heals like a madman and you still have to sit and pray that that recast time will wear off so you can throw another one just in time to keep the tank up. The reactive didn't seem like it was healing at all, and my directs were barely making up for the damage the guardian was getting. All in all, I logged off feeling a little frustrated. I don't mind that I was out healed by a druid. But I don't feel I was doing or even could do as good as the druid. Therein lies the problem - I don't feel equal. Is it just because I feel my heals are a bit lacking? No...I don't feel the templar class has adequate dps neither. This problem is tantamount and apparent now that we seem to have lost our debuffs. My gear is not the best, but it's not the worst. I don't have all my spells at Adept 3, most are Adept I. I would call myself the "average" player. Taking that into consideration, it takes me a good chunk of time to solo a mob using HO's even. Is that intended for the templar? Maybe...ok. But I've noticed on my sorceror I can burn mobs down in the blink of an eye and barely have to stop for power. On my zerker, it's a slugfest, but I can still manage to solo more effectively than on my main. Maybe I just need to harvest for hours on end hoping to find some rares to sell so that I can upgrade all my heals to Adept 3. Maybe I'm just better suited to play a dps class and I'm all wrong. I'll figure it out as I go. But in the meantime, I don't think it would hurt for SOE to take a look at the figures to see if perhaps they didn't hit a little too hard with the nerf bat.</SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Barodur_04 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-17-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:51 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Barodur_04 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-17-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:08 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am not going to try to say what your feeling is wrong, and I'm not going to bombard you with questions on spell...cons and other stuff like that.   Just a few tips is all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may already be doing what I'm about to recommend, but if not consider trying a few of my suggestions.   I'm not sure what level you are, I'm going to assume your not 50 yet though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1st. before pulls(and tell the tank to hold up if needed) put up your group reactive.  This has more charges to it then your single target reactive and a longer cast time, so nice to have it up in advance.    This can pull some aggro, depending on how good your tank is at taunting.  Don't put both reactives up for the pull though unless your tank is an excellent taunter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atoning fate, or any of the Fate spell line is  your best friend.  ESPECIALLY in group encounters.  This spell procs a group heal for a super low power cost.  Use this thing like mad, it's excellent at topping of health bars,  and getting some good heals in during group encounters.   If any templar isn't using this spell on almost every encounter, I'm personally asking you to start, and see what a diffrence this will make for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you notice your casters/scouts are getting too much aggro, ask them to lay off there spells a bit, you can only heal as good as the group around you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And also, keep in mind the level of the encounter Vs your tank.   If the stuff is orange to your tank healing is tuff, if it's orange to most of your group Your DPS is low and hence your healing time will be extended.</DIV> <P> </P> <P>And above all, remeber how much healing you have to do is a formula, and that formula includes the skill of the players your group with.<BR></P>

[Nim]

Okay, I'm seeing people saying that defenders of the Templar class must be the only ones that can play Templars, and how the class is sooooo broke because we can't hit a reactive and go afk to grab a snack out of the refrigerator...... My main is a level 44 templar on AB. I have no problems keeping a group alive (within limits, there are things that NO healer can bring a group through). I've talked to members of other healing classes that tell me that they feel that we have the most healing capability hands down. I don't pretend to speak for them, just adding that in. I started playing this game when it first came out, made it to shy of 30 (don't remember the exact level) and stopped playing cause the game was too easy regardless of what class I was playing. This is my opinion so please don't assume that I am trying to speak for anyone else, but the mobs are so easy to kill that you can drop a reactive and go afk in the middle of a fight, then there is a problem. Making the game more difficult does not constitute the game being broken. There are some legitimate issues with some of the classes. Yes there are going to be points where our healing ability is very strained. Yes the other healers are going to be better for some situations. But if Templars are "The One True Healer Class" then why should they bother having the other healing classes at all? The game has to be balanced so that all of the classes have a role. I have played almost all of the classes and *I* don't feel that our class is broken. I have never had a problem getting into a group for lack of healing capability. I ask those that do, have you actually tried to learn how to play the class post LU13? Or are you still going afk in the middle of a fight and wondering why everyone is dead when you get back? Anyway, just my 2cp. <div></div>