The changes from one guildmaster's perspective.

[Kendricke]

<DIV>A recent discussion with a few old friends on different servers eventually lead to the subject of the combat revamp and the various discussions which have cropped up by various class communities essentially pointing out how "Class X isn't even Class X anymore."  Each of us in the cross-server conversation was quick to point out how his or her class was now the "worst" at whatever it was they were supposed to do, while others in the channel would be quick to point out all the good things that class was able to do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>For instance, one friend pointed out how badly his warlock had been changed to AE, and a conjuror friend pointed out that he'd seen warlocks soloing entire encounters in a few spells.  The warlock replied how often he died trying to do that, while watching conjuror pets tank the same encounters. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A different friend in the channel pointed out how paladins had it good because they actually heal themselves and maintain taunt-over-time.  The paladin was quick to point out to the monk critic that at least the monk could feign and actually do some damage in a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another friend pointed out how horribly she could keep her group's alive as a warden and no one would group with her and I pointed out how she at least had evac.  She mentioned that she needed evac because she couldn't take more than a hit or three in combat and couldn't keep up healing even against normal group encounters, but she kept losing out on groups to Templars.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, obviously this was just a conversation between some old friends, and certainly we were doing more than a fair share of needling each other about the class changes, but even so it was certainly enough to put some ideas into perspective.  I began to think that perhaps the problems aren't with the class so much as with our perception of what our class should be.  Certainly I've heard a lot of reasons put forth this week that Templars should be the best healers...and have better DPS...and more utility.   The more I hear it, the more I truly try to see the reasoning behind such requests.  What I personally keep finding is that many of us simply have differing views on what the class should be.  What's more, I think that most of our ideas on what the class is differs from how the developers behind the revamp envision Templars as. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, we're left with more questions than answers as we each individually try to reconcile our ideas on the class with the changes we've seen.  We've all had months to adjust and adapt the view of Templars, and then, with one patch, watched our class change overnight.  Now, as I've said in other posts, the change wasn't as sudden to myself and other members of my guild who were able to see the gradual changes occuring throughout beta.  Perhaps our perspective is more circumspect because of that...or perhaps we're just more easy-going towards such changes than others apparantly are.  Whatever the reason, the reactions toward the changes from my 60 members have been relatively mild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not every outlook is sunshine and rainbows, but we're at least trying to take the time to understand what's happened to our different classes before passing ultimate judgements against the developers.  I've asked them to give it an honest go and to keep open minds, and so far, the response has mellowed dramatically since the first week while we all got used to our new tactics.  Our forums are certainly active over the past few weeks with ideas and strategies, and I'm seeing a spike in activity online each night since the expansion's release.  It's been a good excuse to learn the new roles we each have. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few of my members are trying out new classes since the revamp.  Some have found renewed joy in their own classes.  Overall, the changes seem to be a good thing.  A few tweaks or adjustments and it just may be a great thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as my own experiences, well...they've been positive thus far.  I've tried to experience some of the problems others are seeing.  With the exception of fizzles and interuptions seeming a bit on the high side, I'm just not able to see the same issues.  A failing on my part, perhaps, but one which is preventing me from enjoining my fellow Templars in their frustrations on certain issues.  I am, after all, only one cleric, and I'm simply unable to speak on a problem that I can't witness or recreate.  Groups are staying healed...soloing is not an issue...I don't feel as though I'm in less demand than other healers (even out of guild). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this make me an traitor the Templar community?  I'd hate to think so.  I'm simply trying my best to emulate the problems others are having and speaking truthfully on what I'm seeing.  I'm sure others are having issues.  I read these problems every day in these forums.  However, many of those posts are simply about "feelings", which I can't comment on.  What could I say?  Your opinion is wrong?  Opinions can't be wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I have to wait for facts.  I've request that facts be posted.  I've asked for data and information to base responses on.  Many times, I've been told that such facts won't matter...because it's all about how this person or that person feels about the changes.  Well, I can't argue with feelings.  All I can do is share my own as a contrast. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end, I keep coming back to that conversation with all of us from different guilds on different servers sharing a common channel.  Roleplayers and powergamers, casuals and ubers all enjoined in discussion about which class got it worst.  I keep thinking of how we each tried to "one up" each other an show off how badly we each had it.  In the end, I was horrible at the game, perhaps because I started to realize that perhaps we Templars aren't so badly off as many seem to think.  I was just too...positive.  Too many of the participants seemed too eager to point out defiencies that really didn't seem like deficiencies to me.  Maybe that's the problem.  Maybe everyone wanted so badly to hear how awful we have it that we're willing to fulfill our own dire self-defeating prophecies. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again, maybe I'm just not seeing it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, apologies for the interruption, and my gratitude to those of you who read through this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ADW123]

<P>For the most part I feel the same as you. Overall I can still heal my groups, can still solo, and still feel like I make an important contribution to a group but as you mentioned tweaks still need to be made. </P> <P>Two things that I do think need to be tweaked for the templar class though are interupts and utility. Interupts are bad for all casters now, but even more so for the clerics with there plate armor and 10-20% avoidance. The stun/stifle procs from many mobs make this even worse. If SOE were to fix this, it would go a long way towards helping the templars that wish to solo.</P> <P>The other thing I think that needs to be worked on is our utility. Now that all healing is virtually identical, utility needs to be balanced this way as well. Where other classes still have superior utility, templars were heavily downgraded and the only thing we got from it was pacify and a useless mez. They need to provide us with some utility that will actually be useful. I have been testing the changes since the first day and I have never used mez to the point where it made a difference. Pacify is useful in limited situations but certainly not worth the loss of so much. They need to buff our mark line back up some. It was a powerful spell before but now it is simply useless. A 30ish a tick heal over time does virtually nothing. Somewhere around 100 hot at adept 3 would be more balanced. A lower cast time stun would be nice as well. They fixed the horrible cost of prostrate but at 4 sec cast time it is still very situational.</P> <P>I've been seeing the constant complaining throughout the boards the last few weeks and can understand how the people feel but I really don't think it is as bad as many believe it to be. There are going to be people that will complain and whine no matter what. The majority of these people as you explained will only express their opinions and feelings and really SOE isn't interested in that. Well thought out posts that provide proof is what is needed and unfortunately these are rare as of late on the boards. Hopefully SOE manages to work things out and find a middle ground where everyone can be happy but I very much doubt it.</P> <P>Curaga, 51 Templar, Unrest</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ADW123 wrote:<BR> <P>Two things that I do think need to be tweaked for the templar class though are interupts and utility. Interupts are bad for all casters now, but even more so for the clerics with there plate armor and 10-20% avoidance. The stun/stifle procs from many mobs make this even worse. If SOE were to fix this, it would go a long way towards helping the templars that wish to solo.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I posted earlier that I've been having next to no issues on interruptions since I altered my soloing tactics.  Try using ONLY your smite line (my condemning smite now has a pacify element attached).  Don't melee.  Don't DOT.  Just try using ONLY smites for now with your heroic opportunities.  Once you get that down, expand a bit and add in some other spells.  Just this one change has done wonders for my ability to solo.  It's entirely possible that this was the intended method by which we're supposed to solo now.</P> <P>Seriously, I'm all but locking down solo content using this and my Sign/Prostrate lines.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ADW123 wrote:<BR> <P>The other thing I think that needs to be worked on is our utility. Now that all healing is virtually identical, utility needs to be balanced this way as well. Where other classes still have superior utility, templars were heavily downgraded and the only thing we got from it was pacify and a useless mez. They need to provide us with some utility that will actually be useful. I have been testing the changes since the first day and I have never used mez to the point where it made a difference. Pacify is useful in limited situations but certainly not worth the loss of so much. They need to buff our mark line back up some. It was a powerful spell before but now it is simply useless. A 30ish a tick heal over time does virtually nothing. Somewhere around 100 hot at adept 3 would be more balanced. A lower cast time stun would be nice as well. They fixed the horrible cost of prostrate but at 4 sec cast time it is still very situational.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We aren't alone in that respect.  Wardens also had their ability to heal downgraded, as did other priests.  Another often overlooked utility spell we have is Odessy.  I can get a totem that gives invisibility or speed...and grouping with any of at least 8 classes can get an evac.  However, we're the only class that gets Oddessy. </P> <P>Also, as far as that "30ish tick over time"...it's 30ish every 2 seconds.  I'm certainly not going to complain about a regen that pulls in 150 life every 10 seconds...450 life in half a minute.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> I've been seeing the constant complaining throughout the boards the last few weeks and can understand how the people feel but I really don't think it is as bad as many believe it to be. There are going to be people that will complain and whine no matter what. The majority of these people as you explained will only express their opinions and feelings and really SOE isn't interested in that. Well thought out posts that provide proof is what is needed and unfortunately these are rare as of late on the boards. Hopefully SOE manages to work things out and find a middle ground where everyone can be happy but I very much doubt it. <P>Curaga, 51 Templar, Unrest</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you for the encouragement.  I think that once the emotion starts to settle a bit, and once we start sharing more tactics with each other, then more Templars will start to see that the changes weren't quite as bad as initially thought.  Again, that could be my eternal optimism piping up, though.  Take my enthusiams with a grain of salt.  Test the changes for yourselves.  Discuss with other healers.  Find new tactics that work. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR><BR> </P>

[ADW123]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>I posted earlier that I've been having next to no issues on interruptions since I altered my soloing tactics.  Try using ONLY your smite line (my condemning smite now has a pacify element attached).  Don't melee.  Don't DOT.  Just try using ONLY smites for now with your heroic opportunities.  Once you get that down, expand a bit and add in some other spells.  Just this one change has done wonders for my ability to solo.  It's entirely possible that this was the intended method by which we're supposed to solo now.</P> <P>Seriously, I'm all but locking down solo content using this and my Sign/Prostrate lines.</P> <HR> <P>This is something I will have to try. I have normally just ran my heroic ops and warring faith and melee'd. While the interupts are a pain they are not that bad when taking on a solo mob. When killing a group of 3 or more is when it really becomes bad.</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Also, as far as that "30ish tick over time"...it's 30ish every 2 seconds.  I'm certainly not going to complain about a regen that pulls in 150 life every 10 seconds...450 life in half a minute.<BR></P> <HR> <P>While this certainly sounds decent enough it really doesn't even phase any tanks, most tanks have over 6k hp, at 150 healing this is only doing 0.5% of their life every 2 seconds, or 2.5% of their life for the duration of the spell. In very long drawn out battles it may be slightly more useful as it will proc multiple times to lead up to a few hundred points of healing but otherwise its really just a waste to cast. Keep in mind also that this spell only lasts those 5 ticks then it drops. 20% chance to proc is a large chance but it will not be up 100%.</P> <P>Granted that in a full group you can potentially increase this by 6 times if everyone melees and manages to keep it procing or in a raid where this is actually a fairly useful spell but under normal circumstances, you will have a tank, and usually 1 or 2 scouts with a few mages. If they are doing their job, and not pulling aggro this spell is not used.</P> <P>It was a little too powerful before but not to the point where they should've stripped it of its mitigation buff and cut the healing by 5 times. If they were to double the healing now and make it 60 a tick I think it would be a lot more useful. They could also add any number of mods to it...10% haste, 20 to a stat, resists, melee skills, focus!...</P> <P>Curaga, 51 Templar, Unrest</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Sinnester]

<DIV><FONT color=#6699ff>Kendricke stated:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff>I posted earlier that I've been having next to no issues on interruptions since I altered my soloing tactics.  Try using ONLY your smite line (my condemning smite now has a pacify element attached).  Don't melee.  Don't DOT.  Just try using ONLY smites for now with your heroic opportunities.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>I do a lot of soloing on mainly white/yellow mobs.   I get interrupts on everything I cast including the smite line.  I don't know how you aren't receving them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be able to use our full range of spells when needed.  They need to look into the interrupt matter.  They also need to lower the stun/stiffle abilities on the mobs.   Solo encounter mobs should not be stunning/stiffling to the extent they are now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please don't take this negative when I say this.   Finding workarounds as temporary solutions to broken things are fine, but the root problem still needs to be solved.   Some of us put our foot down and want solutions to be  immediately worked on while others shrug the problem off and say maybe it will get fixed soon.   None of us are really wrong but please don't be wagging a finger at the people that want to see immediate results.   I am NOT waiting another year for fixes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is something I had happen last night.  There was a lvl 57 warden in my group, a lvl 57 necro and I am a lvl 56 templar.  We were healing the tank (a lvl 60 zerker) when I cast a direct heal spell.  I received the message back "spell would not take effect".  Now, is this an indication that my direct heals are not stacking with wardens?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To recap:</DIV> <DIV>- healing is fine so far.   Our marks line could use a little buffing up.</DIV> <DIV>- our utility is bad.   I agree with others that if healing is balanced utility spells should be balanced and they are not.  Our new utility spells are not useful.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>- DPS.  We were told we would be getting additional DPS.   I don't see it.   Personally, I think we are still stronger healers then wardens/mystics/furys but their dps is much better.   We still need ours upped.  I don't want insance dps, just enough to be efficient when soloing.</DIV></DIV> <DIV>- fizzle.  We all want this fixed.</DIV> <DIV>- interrupts.   This needs to be fixed.</DIV> <DIV>- stuns/stiffles - fix it.  They are totally out of control.</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff>Kendricke stated:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6699ff>I posted earlier that I've been having next to no issues on interruptions since I altered my soloing tactics.  Try using ONLY your smite line (my condemning smite now has a pacify element attached).  Don't melee.  Don't DOT.  Just try using ONLY smites for now with your heroic opportunities.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>I do a lot of soloing on mainly white/yellow mobs.   I get interrupts on everything I cast including the smite line.  I don't know how you aren't receving them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be able to use our full range of spells when needed.  They need to look into the interrupt matter.  They also need to lower the stun/stiffle abilities on the mobs.   Solo encounter mobs should not be stunning/stiffling to the extent they are now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please don't take this negative when I say this.   Finding workarounds as temporary solutions to broken things are fine, but the root problem still needs to be solved.   Some of us put our foot down and want solutions to be  immediately worked on while others shrug the problem off and say maybe it will get fixed soon.   None of us are really wrong but please don't be wagging a finger at the people that want to see immediate results.   I am NOT waiting another year for fixes. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh, I didn't say I'm not getting interrupts.  However, using the stuns, pacifications, and Sign line works wonders at reducing it.  If they can't hit me, they can't interrupt are my thoughts on the subject.  Fizzles are still a problem, though.</P> <P>I agree soloing takes too long in some cases, but some of the extreme cases I've heard just don't seem right.  I can't understand how a level 50 templar is taking 5 minutes to take down 46 down arrow solo targets (not you, but another case which was listed in a different thread).  I'm taking 60 seconds tops on armored diggers, dune spiders, or shade prowlers right now just using heroics and condemning smite.  No masters or fabled...just your run of the mill average player here sticking to some tactics he found.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Jida]

<div></div><div></div>Takes me (51 at the time) 2.5 minutes to take out white gnolls in sinking sands. I wish the fights were shorter. I honestly do. I dont want to fight "blue" due to experiance being better with white's (i dont see it though). But its kinda crazy to see a wizzy take something down in 1-2 (ice comet and gnoll master strike) nukes.. 3-10 seconds.. and it takes me (adept III condemming strike and app 1 of the rest of my dps spells) 2 to 2.5 minutes to take out the same gnoll. I can solo. hell i can solo Yellow ^.. but the 15 minutes it takes to solo the aformentioned yellow makes the encounter worthless. Dont get me wrong, the 55 mana 200hp nuke is nice due to low mana requirements, but its the length of fights i have an issue with, not my ablity to stay alive and win the fights. My suggestion on how to fix the issue is to upgrade the HO damage for healers <b><u>when solo</u></b>, the 150-200 extra HO damage is pityful. In case you want to see my gears and stats plz click the image below. Elder <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jida on <span class="date_text">09-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:19 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Jida on <span class=date_text>09-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR> <BR>My suggestion on how to fix the issue is to upgrade the HO damage for healers <B><U>when solo</U></B>, the 150-200 extra HO damage is pityful. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I get a bad feeling every time someone mentions altering game mechanics to operate differently for groups as opposed to soloing.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel that's a good answer to "balance".  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Jida]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<blockquote><hr>Jida wrote:My suggestion on how to fix the issue is to upgrade the HO damage for healers <b><u>when solo</u></b>, the 150-200 extra HO damage is pityful.<hr></blockquote><p>I get a bad feeling every time someone mentions altering game mechanics to operate differently for groups as opposed to soloing.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel that's a good answer to "balance". </p><hr></blockquote></span><p>The only other suggestion I could have would be to increase the damage. Even if it was our long refresh undead nuke or an undead proc w/ melee. If it was adjusted so that each fight against a white con no arrow (undead) opponent, would last no longer than 3x the time it would take a caster to finish the monster. I wont speak about specific times (as far as minutes or seconds), just a generality about length. Just a side thought as I am typing this post, Why not cut the HO timer for priests down to 2 seconds instead of 5.5, and up the in general spell damage by double, then we can do HO's constantly and increase DPS on mobs. In groups we are generally healing too much to nuke often.Currently we are 4%-12% as efficient as a wizard (I talking total in combat time, not how much mana we use or how big our nukes are).In the fight I compared above, the wizard (<span class="fielddatasmall"><a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=208722203">Naikilian</a>)</span> casts 2 nukes, ice comet and gnoll master strike, and killed a white (no arrow) gnoll in about 6-10 seconds of combat fight time.I started the fight with mark, started HO's, and healed with reactive when needed (once). My damage pattern is usually HO starter, Strike, Gnoll master strike (this as a finisher gives more damage), Dot, HO, Strike, Undead strike, HO... I use all the nukes while the HO timer is refreshing.  The fight took 2 minutes and change. Let's just say 120 seconds. (That's how I got my % above)In closing I just want to see the length of solo fights to decrease, I don't care how that happens. I believe that many (not all) are complaining about the solo game with a templar because of length, not ability.  BTW I started a templar to be mainly grouped, I solo to have something to do while waiting for a group, or if one is not available (and I have LFG up the entire time I am soloing)</p><span></span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR><BR>My suggestion on how to fix the issue is to upgrade the HO damage for healers <B><U>when solo</U></B>, the 150-200 extra HO damage is pityful. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I get a bad feeling every time someone mentions altering game mechanics to operate differently for groups as opposed to soloing.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel that's a good answer to "balance". </P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <P>The only other suggestion I could have would be to increase the damage. Even if it was our long refresh undead nuke or an undead proc w/ melee. If it was adjusted so that each fight against a white con no arrow (undead) opponent, would last no longer than 3x the time it would take a caster to finish the monster. I wont speak about specific times (as far as minutes or seconds), just a generality about length. Just a side thought as I am typing this post, Why not cut the HO timer for priests down to 2 seconds instead of 5.5, and up the in general spell damage by double, then we can do HO's constantly and increase DPS on mobs. In groups we are generally healing too much to nuke often.<BR><BR>Currently we are 4%-12% as efficient as a wizard (I talking total in combat time, not how much mana we use or how big our nukes are).<BR><BR>In the fight I compared above, the wizard (<SPAN class=fielddatasmall><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=208722203" target=_blank>Naikilian</A>)</SPAN> casts 2 nukes, ice comet and gnoll master strike, and killed a white (no arrow) gnoll in about 6-10 seconds of combat fight time.<BR>I started the fight with mark, started HO's, and healed with reactive when needed (once). My damage pattern is usually HO starter, Strike, Gnoll master strike (this as a finisher gives more damage), Dot, HO, Strike, Undead strike, HO... I use all the nukes while the HO timer is refreshing.  The fight took 2 minutes and change. Let's just say 120 seconds. (That's how I got my % above)<BR><BR>In closing I just want to see the length of solo fights to decrease, I don't care how that happens. I believe that many (not all) are complaining about the solo game with a templar because of length, not ability.  BTW I started a templar to be mainly grouped, I solo to have something to do while waiting for a group, or if one is not available (and I have LFG up the entire time I am soloing)</P><SPAN></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, where's the level we want to be at?  Who do we want to be comparable to?  Mages?  Scouts?  Fighters?  Other priests?  Where is the magic "we want to be equal to X" sweet spot?</P> <P>At some point, someone's got to be bottom of the heap.  Should it be the Templar?  How about the Fury?  or the Warden? or some other class?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sinnester]

We are the bottom of the heap and our dps could be raised considerably and we would still be at the bottom on the heap!

[Jida]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR>We are the bottom of the heap and our dps could be raised considerably and we would still be at the bottom on the heap! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree</DIV>

[Celestian_]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jida wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Sinnester wrote:We are the bottom of the heap and our dps could be raised considerably and we would still be at the bottom on the heap! <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>/agree</div><hr></blockquote> /agree x2 </span><div></div>