Templars

[bigmak20]

<DIV>posted this over in revamp forum</DIV> <DIV>-----</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>SOE -- when you created this game you created three types of healers.  Druids, Shamans, and Clerics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Druids -- Their subclass description reads "Druids and priests of nature, drawing their power from the divine energy of life and the earth.  They can heal and <EM><U><STRONG>purge ailments</STRONG> </U></EM>from their party, <STRONG><EM><U>and bless their comrades with enhanced physical ability</U></EM></STRONG>".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Shamans -- Their subclass description reads "Shamans call upon the ancient spirits of the land, <U><EM><STRONG>using protective wards</STRONG> </EM></U>and healing to invigorate their comrades.  The can <EM><U><STRONG>remove afflictions</STRONG> </U></EM>and <STRONG><EM><U>reflect vile magic back upons their foes</U></EM></STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Clerics -- Their Sublcass description reads "Clerics use divine magic to tend to the physical and spiritual needs of their allies.  Clerics not not only heal wounds and <STRONG><EM><U>banish disease</U></EM></STRONG>,  but also magically augment the health of their comrades".  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Short recap:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Druid: heal + cure + buff </STRONG>(heal and purge ailments and bless ability)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Shaman: heal + cure + damage </STRONG>(ward and heal and remove afflictions and reflect magic on foes)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Cleric: heal + cure + heal </STRONG>(heal and banish disease and augment health)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Let's dig deeper into the subclass:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>DRUIDS</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Wardens -- Their subclass description reads: "Wardens are protectors of the woodlands and defenders of wildlife.  They tap into the power of nature to mend wonds and purge ailments that afflict their allies".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Fury -- Their subclass description reads: "Furies harness the power of storms to tap into the ferocity of nature.  They command the feral spirits of the wilderness <EM><U><STRONG>to strengthen</STRONG> </U></EM>and heal their companions".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Short recap:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Warden: heal + cure </STRONG>(mend wounds and purge ailments)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Fury: buff + heal</STRONG> (strengthen and heal)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>SHAMANS</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Mystic -- Their subclass description reads: "Mystics seek a symbiotic connection with their ancestors, petitioning them to grant the power to heal the injured, <STRONG><EM><U>invigorate the weak, and enhance the capabilities of their allies</U></EM></STRONG>".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Defiler -- Their subclass description reads: "Defilers enslave the spirits of their ancestors, <STRONG><EM><U>plundering and corrupting their power to use against enemies</U></EM></STRONG>.  This stolen power can also be used to heal and <STRONG><EM><U>boost the capabilities of the defilers allies</U></EM></STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Short recap:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Mystic: buff + buff </STRONG>(invigorate and enhance)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Defiler: debuff/buff + heal</STRONG> (plunder/corrupt and heal and boost)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>CLERICS</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Templar -- Their subclass description reads:  "Templars are faithful servants of the divine who use their benevolent powers to aid their fellow adventurers.  They mend wounds and <STRONG><EM><U>purge illness</U></EM></STRONG>, <STRONG><EM><U>relieving the suffering of the afflicted</U></EM></STRONG>".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To  Inquisitors -- Their subclass description reads: "Inquisitors are zealots who relentlessly advance their religious doctrines and accept no compromise in their beliefs.  Skilled healers, they minister to the body while <STRONG><EM><U>seizing control of the soul</U></EM></STRONG>".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Short recap:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Templar: heal + cure + cure </STRONG>(mend wounds purge illness and relieve suffering)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Inquisitor: heal + damage/buff/debuff</STRONG>  (skilled healer and seize control)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SUMMATION</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Warden: heal + cure + buff + heal + cure </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Fury: heal + cure + buff + buff + heal</STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><STRONG>Mystic: heal + cure + damage+ buff + buff </STRONG></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><STRONG>Defiler: heal + cure + damage + debuff/buff + heal</STRONG> </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Templar: heal + cure + heal + heal + cure + cure</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Inquisitor: heal + cure + heal + heal + damage/buff/debuff</STRONG></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note that there are ZERO NONE NADA ZILCH reference to anything but a HEALING SKILL in the TEMPLAR'S description.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Umm.. YEAH.  AND THAT'S ALL WE'VE GOT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then.. SOME [Removed for Content] AT SOE comes out and says "All priests heal equally".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>??????????????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with those priest classes is some of their buffs weren't working right or their damage wasn't good enough etc.  Fix that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>RETRACT THAT DUMB-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] STATEMENT "All priests heal equally" AND STOP JERKING US AROUND.  All the priest+damage priest+buff classes are out there going WOOHOO! we get all that stuff AND get to heal as good as a Templar!  Aren't we in gold city!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you folks at SOE are actually going through with that?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what does Templar get in return for being a fraction of the priest every other class gets to be after this revamp?  Besides all those other priest classes being damned happy Templar's are getting a royal screwing?  Who can blame them?  You've refused to fix them for nine months and they've had to be 2nd fiddle to Templar.  I'd be [Removed for Content] at Templar's too.  Not our fault SOE -- your fault for not fixing them and putting everything off until this magical 'revamp' where you are going to make "All priests heal equally" (screwing the class that ONLY heals).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FIX THEIR OTHER SKILLS and let Templar be <STRONG><FONT size=4>TEMPLAR -- the one and only HEALING <U><EM><FONT size=5>DEDICATED</FONT></EM></U> CLASS</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>on edit: <STRONG><U>Note that Templar was the only class clearly defined to be "cure" focused and that's getting taken away too.</U></STRONG></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>.. and.. hiya quetzaqotl !  Thanks for all the one stars. rofl.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Priests keep their team alive by a variety of means.  That's what priests do.  There are buffs and damage and add-on skills to help keep the group alive in addition to straight healing.  All priests can contribute equally to keeping the group alive.  THAT is what SOE should have said not "all priests heal equally".  You other Priests signed up for Heal+Buff or Heal+Damage etc and NOW you want to heal as good as Templar -AND- have the damage and buffs too?</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Sept]

Kudos my friend...Kudos...I think you have summed it up better than anyone I've seen so far.  And to all the wardens/mystics/druids/wardens...Dont misdirect your hate onto the templars/inquisitors...we know whos to blame for not fixing your classes...It starts with S <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[Kayle]

<P>Great job Bigmak in summing up exactly what SOE advertised, exactly what we expected when we made these Templars and speaking out to the developers to leave our class as they described it.  I too am sorry that other priest classes were broken and have no problem in them being fixed.  What I have a problem with is breaking what was not broke and leaving us with characters we didn't level to 50 to be.</P> <DIV>I'll add my voice to yours for whatever good it's going to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for putting in the effort!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, you can just turn ratings on yourself off if you have one of those 1-star stalkers with nothing better to do following you around.  I have one as well.  I even had to put him on ignore he was that much of a mental case in my mailbox too.  It will drive the psycho nuts that he can't harass you. hehe.. try it.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>08-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:37 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:42 PM</span>

[Amand]

<P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=3>It looks like all healers are getting screwed. I agree that Temps should be the best healer (only by a little tho) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. When I signed on as mystic the description I got was a warrior/healer(spears are useless, BTW). After the revamp soloing is going to be harder for all healers. Soe is nerfing a mystic's bear form to being virtually useless. The extra bear form "maul"saved me on countless occasions. Hopefully now that wards are fixed, they will hold up as I run away from an encounter that is beating me to death. Temps have always been great to group with , and speaking for myself, I had zero issues with being 2nd healer or back up healer, it allowed me to use de buffs and damage spells while the temp healed. I'm still taking a wait and see attitude until all the combat revamps go live.  I'm hoping that SOE will "get it right this time".</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=3></FONT> </P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Well EQ1 had classes right, pure healer you played a Cleric, </P> <P>Wanted to heal and have a mega amount of buffs, slows, pet, DoTs and solo dragons? play a shammy <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Want to heal, nuke well, port, buff loads play a Druid.</P> <P> </P> <P>Problem is here we are forced into being an equal healer but with a different name and armour restrictions, yet the classes arent equal as a whole.</P> <P>Clerics are given equal healing, lowest utility and lowest nukes.</P> <P>Druids get equal healing, highest utility, highest nukes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Most people who play healers want to play pure healers, thats why we chose Priests, we like healing, we dont want dps, if we wanted DPS we would be a Mage or Scout.</P> <P>Clerics are the closest EQ2 has to pure healers as we have the lowest utility and DPS, even with equal healing, healing is all we can do really.</P>

[VikodiN]

<P><FONT color=#ccffff>Very well stated from the OP.  I chose Templar to become a healer.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I think we all knew a nerf bat was being swung by SoE and it was only a matter of time before they hit a ball with our name on it.  They seem to have scored a home run though, nerfing Templars across the board.  I see no improvements made with Templars while other priests, while also having the bat swung, seem to have gotten better in some ways (mainly healing).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>The anology of Druids and Shamans being joyous over Templar nerfage?  I can also see that happening since SoE never paid any attention to them when they voiced their opinions in the past.  I would be upset also so they have a right to be upset but please put the blame where it really belongs, not onto the shoulders on Templars.</FONT></P>

[SnowKnight]

<P>I agree. This whole thing reeks too much like the alchemist nerf for my comfort. 1 useless class already, soon to be 2 if what I read on these boards is anything to go by.</P> <P>Templars are good at healing, cause its all we get. Now we get some crappy pet (tho its not really considering u have to use it every 30 seconds)  and mez spells. Get rid of these and give me back my good heals <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Oneira]

<STRONG></STRONG><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR> <DIV>posted this over in revamp forum</DIV> <DIV>-----</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>RETRACT THAT DUMB-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] STATEMENT "All priests heal equally" AND STOP JERKING US AROUND.  All the priest+damage priest+buff classes are out there going WOOHOO! we get all that stuff AND get to heal as good as a Templar!  Aren't we in gold city!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you folks at SOE are actually going through with that?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what does Templar get in return for being a fraction of the priest every other class gets to be after this revamp?  Besides all those other priest classes being damned happy Templar's are getting a royal screwing?  Who can blame them?  <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>You've refused to fix them for nine months and they've had to be 2nd fiddle to Templar</STRONG>.</FONT>  I'd be [Removed for Content] at Templar's too.  Not our fault SOE -- your fault for not fixing them and putting everything off until this magical 'revamp' <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>where you are going to make "All priests heal equally" (screwing the class that ONLY heals).</STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are so very right.  SOE backed themselves into a corner with the "All priests heal equally" statement.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here I started up a cleric last week as my 3rd alt, and now I'm saying to myself, why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just going to set off another wave of rebalancings after the rebalance.</DIV>

[chrono19]

<DIV>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]! you hit the nail on the head there bigmak, we are getting screwd  for thier screw up, and as for other healer classes rejoicing they'll soon realize the pressure of being main healers in a group, its not easy but its all we templars ever had as </DIV> <DIV>every templar knows. we spend all this time and effort to get to 50, spend all our money to get masters and adept 3's </DIV> <DIV>only to get nerfed bucause SOE can't fix the other classes, brilliant SOE, just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing brilliant!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[T'Pol]

<DIV>@bigmak2010</DIV> <DIV>First i am not a Templar i am a warden but forgive me for saying that,why are you complaining?</DIV> <DIV>You are constantly crying about nerfs and that you cant handle brust damage etc have you ever looked at the stats of your heals?</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://people.freenet.de/lw_wips/heal.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at this! Oh yes you cant handle burst damage now its all making sense 1216-1487 is really not enough :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV>I think the new balancing is just fine as it is.</DIV> <DIV>I as a warden could cry about burst damage because i cant heal great amounts of hp instantly but look at your spell.</DIV> <DIV>And please consider the changes are most certainly still in progress so relax and wait <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by T'Pol on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[chrono19]

<DIV>How many templars have a master 2 heal?</DIV> <DIV>thats right you are not a templar, you still have some utility.</DIV> <DIV>make a templar and level it to 50 then post again.</DIV>

[T'Pol]

<DIV>@Chrono</DIV> <DIV>Every 10 Levels you can choose now between 4 Master II Spells so many will have this one i posted when all the stuff goes live.</DIV> <DIV>And just because i am not a templar doesnt mean i cant post anything about the subject.</DIV> <DIV>Look at the numbers of the Spell and think again about revamp complaints.</DIV> <DIV>You have incredible direct heals which i as a warden can only dream about.</DIV>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> T'Pol wrote:<BR> <DIV>@Chrono</DIV> <DIV>Every 10 Levels you can choose now between 4 Master II Spells so many will have this one i posted when all the stuff goes live.</DIV> <DIV>And just because i am not a templar doesnt mean i cant post anything about the subject.</DIV> <DIV>Look at the numbers of the Spell and think again about revamp complaints.</DIV> <DIV>You have incredible direct heals which i as a warden can only dream about.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=65" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=65</A></P> <P>- Healing spells have been rebalanced. Direct heals (both single-target and group) now have more differentiation among subclasses. Each subclass of Priest has different advantages:<BR>  - Inquisitor: Slightly higher efficiency than most instant heals, best repeat spell healing amount for instant heals, fastest reuse timers.<BR>  - Templar: Larger heal for increased power cost, less time consumed spent casting heals.<BR>  <STRONG>- Warden: Highest efficiency of all heals, best repeat spell healing amount (regen effects from all lines stack).<BR></STRONG>  - Fury: Fastest healer, strong initial burst healing.<BR>  - Mystic: Same efficiency as the Inquisitor but slightly longer reuse timers; each heal adds a minor max health increase which allows "overflow" health for the target (health increase from all lines stack).<BR>  - Defiler: Matches the potency of Templar heals, but sacrifices some health to defray the overall power cost.</P> <P> </P> <P>Let's see, he said:</P> <P>- Warden: Highest efficiency of all heals, best repeat spell healing amount (regen effects from all lines stack).<BR></P> <P>Not to mention buffs, numerous utilities, ability to solo, better damage, cures and highest efficiency heals and now health regen stacking that Templars can only dream about.  So why are YOU complaining? <BR></P>

[bigmak20]

I think my position is extremely consistent T'Pol.  I have never said Templar did not have good healing ability nor have I asked for more healing ability for Templar. I've been trying to raise awareness that if the Dev's goal is for all priests to "Heal Equally" (and they appear to be measuring that solely on heal points) then Templar is left gimped in relation to all other priests since HEAL is all we do.   SOE has to do one of 2 things: 1) Admit that the class descriptions,spell lines, and subclass quests are correct (current state of Templar) or 2) Give Templar 1k+ nukes, great buffs, invis, etc. ALL PRIESTS SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP THEIR GROUP ALIVE EQUALLY WELL It looks like SOE is making it so we all heal the same as measured by heal points.  Alright then.  Where's all our nukes buffs etc.?  Why does Templar have lowest in class mana and lowest DPS period?  We all heal the same?  Why does SOE think if you wear the title "Templar" you deserve to be equal in healing and WORST AT EVERYTHING ELSE?

[T'Pol]

<P>I am not complaining about my class i like the new balancing they did its just i dont see the point why templars start to complain as it seems thats your heals are just fine,granted they use more power but they heal a great amout.</P> <P>So i dont really see the point in complaining.</P> <P>Oh and about buffs the wolf form costs me 3 con and from what i have seen here warden buffs are pretty screwed at the moment,but do i worry? No because changes are still in progress.</P> <P>But this is not about wardens here its about templars <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>@bigmak2010</P> <P>I am not sure abou the DPS thing but i dont think that there is much of a difference except furys of course.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by T'Pol on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 AM</span>

[Dragonreal]

Have you seen the numbers on the regens though? the biggest one that I saw was around 140 a tick and that's the main line; the direct heals are like 50-60 each tick or something (I forget exact numbers but it wasn't very big). Yes, they stack but we're gonna NEED them to if they're gonna be that small, and the direct heal part of those is miniscule compared to the templar directs so those heals are balanced and regens from wardens will do what regens are supposed to.... help stabilize tank's hp, while you templars deal with the big hits that come in (I'm talking in a raiding sense here, for regular grouping I'm gonna guess any hlr can heal just fine).

[Kayle]

<P>Look at the total comparison, the LARGER picture and stop complaining about your heals compared to ours.  You guys get better in the larger picture.  Read it again.. more efficient overall healing.  What?  You want it ALL?   It's not going to happen.  I'm tired of this heal for heal comparison when you're getting much more overall in the sub-categories and please don't tell me you're not. </P> <P>Give me your buffs, my cures back, your ability to solo compared to ours, your efficiency, etc., and then we'll talk.</P> <P>It's NOT just about heals, it's about balance and you exceed us in balance as it stands right now from what I've read.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[Dalchar]

<DIV>Methinx most of the biggest fit and arguements come from talking about heals but at the same time, that's not what what the real arguement seems to be about...  I think everyone needs to take a breath and leave the boards alone for 24 hours LOL.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look strictly at direct heals, and going with the "everyone heals equally" thing, all the priests look to be relatively on par with one another.  The templar's are just larger and seem kinda bland compared to most everyone else's but at the same time I can't remember how many countless posts I saw about how temp's generally wanted the biggest heals.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Temps are kinda the standard against which eveyone is measured against.  They're reliable, dependable and good.  The reactive heal based on a few things I've looked at and read are about 30% more effective than the other specialties, so if they're not going to alter that, then you got a substantial advantage esp considering their nature.  They may very well change the other specialties to match their effectiveness somewhat but I think in the end reactives will end up slightly better by nature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the things that is hard to measure right now is the effectiveness of heavy armor and the ability to pick and chose the best armors out there.  That plate helm might not be 100% what you wanted in stats but that chain sure does kinda thing.  Temps/Inquis are probably better geared or can be, for whatever situation may arise.  Especially now that at least on beta as of 8/29/05 the health and power pools of all the priests are basically equalized.  What I'm thinking there is that if nothing else, that would probably count toward your X number of "utility/flavor" or whatever that SOE has in their grand scheme of things that everyone gets as "special".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm only half clued into the things that templars do or do not have now, but what do they have that are still the "best/biggest"?  I think they still reign supreme on HP buffs, but I think something was lost on the mitigation portion (namely that I know of in reactives, but everyone lost their secondary effects).  Yeah from a gameplay standpoint and what I'm seeing and hearing, you guys need a utility line or two and maybe one of the existing ones improved.  Course, then you get the question... "what do you want for utility?"  I don't think I've seen anything unique or reasonable posted, although I may have missed it.  All the cures and the biggest best most efficient etc heals won't work in the scheme of "all priests heal equally".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just curious as to what they want.  I'm told there's lots of stuff you DO have, that are rather nice and useful, but in general, kinda boring and only the temp would probably know anything about it.  You're right now from what I read I think "kinda the standard, all-around-good priest, can't go wrong with it, but eh."  Yeah you heal, yeah you function, yeah you have a few utilities, but... nothing too terribly interesting.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dalcharis on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oneira wrote:<BR><STRONG></STRONG><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR> <DIV>posted this over in revamp forum</DIV> <DIV>-----</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>RETRACT THAT DUMB-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] STATEMENT "All priests heal equally" AND STOP JERKING US AROUND.  All the priest+damage priest+buff classes are out there going WOOHOO! we get all that stuff AND get to heal as good as a Templar!  Aren't we in gold city!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you folks at SOE are actually going through with that?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what does Templar get in return for being a fraction of the priest every other class gets to be after this revamp?  Besides all those other priest classes being damned happy Templar's are getting a royal screwing?  Who can blame them?  <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>You've refused to fix them for nine months and they've had to be 2nd fiddle to Templar</STRONG>.</FONT>  I'd be [Removed for Content] at Templar's too.  Not our fault SOE -- your fault for not fixing them and putting everything off until this magical 'revamp' <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>where you are going to make "All priests heal equally" (screwing the class that ONLY heals).</STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are so very right.  SOE backed themselves into a corner with the "All priests heal equally" statement.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here I started up a cleric last week as my 3rd alt, and now I'm saying to myself, why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just going to set off another wave of rebalancings after the rebalance.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep, they also backed themselves into a corner when they put Brawlers into the Fighter arch type then stated " All fighters Tank equally "</P> <P>The sad thing at the current moment is some Priest class's are out damaging Fighters, but this is being looked into appartently with less then 2 weeks to go......</P> <P>Anyone else get the feeling that the combat changes wont be ready for release and we end up contuinally getting readjusted on Live because they pushed them out to early?</P>

[Kayle]

<P>You want to know what you can give us in utility for sacrificing our mitigation, buffs, heals (they've been dumb-downed by comparison to what we used to have considerably), I will tell you.</P> <P>Give us your group invis and give us our group cures back and I won't say another word, ok?</P> <P>Are you willing to give that up?  I'll throw in our water breathing line too, how's that, Dalcharis?</P> <P>/em can't wait to see his answer.  LOL!</P> <P>Oh and btw, I just read my guild leader making a recruit post for furies when there's already too many healers in our guild and plenty of people sitting around waiting for a spot in raids.  Does that tell you anything?</P> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:19 PM</span>

[Dragonreal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <P>Look at the total comparison, the LARGER picture and stop complaining about your heals compared to ours.  You guys get better in the larger picture.  Read it again.. more efficient overall healing.  What?  You want it ALL?   It's not going to happen.  I'm tired of this heal for heal comparison when you're getting much more overall in the sub-categories and please don't tell me you're not. </P> <P>Give me your buffs, my cures back, your ability to solo compared to ours, your efficiency, etc., and then we'll talk.</P> <P>It's NOT just about heals, it's about balance and you exceed us in balance as it stands right now from what I've read.</P> <P>Message Edited by Kaylena on <SPAN class=date_text>08-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:13 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm sorry but WHERE in my post did I say I want the biggest heals and the best efficiency? uhhh NOWHERE and I did not complain about my heals. I simply stated why they are the most efficient and why they need to stack... if they don't stack, they need to be bigger, if they stack then they're fine. No matter what they do with warden heals (barring removing the regen effect completely) they will be efficient heals... on live right now, I am always the last hlr on the raid that's oom and since I finally got my prismatic, I've got ppl in my guild asking me if I'm healing at all cuz my pow never seems to go anywhere, so I'm more than happy with my efficiency and the fact that I have the best efficiency is nothing new to me; and yes I'll admit right now, I have both the biggest and the most efficient direct heals and I really don't care that I'm losing one of those things and am more than happy to lose it in the name of balance, just as long as it IS balanced and I CAN still heal effectively for both raid and normal grouping situations. </P> <DIV>So get off your high horse and stop trying to put words in my mouth; no I don't want your heals, I've got my own that I'm perfectly happy with as long as they do the job effectively.</DIV>

[Kayle]

<P>Aonein, as you may know, SOE has done this before.  Where there were too many of one class and not enough of another, they nerf the one they have the most of and then overpower the one they have the least of.  Then people rush out and make that super-powered alt, only to find out 6 months down the road, the scheme reverses itself again.</P> <P>I'll give you some history as I've lived it:</P> <P>I had a ranger in EQ1 and pre-kunark it was the best class to have.  Brad McQuaid, one of the original Everquest 1 developers, used to play a ranger (Moorguard knows this well too.  It was Moorguard who ran the EQHunters website, a place for Everquest rangers before he was hired by SOE to moderate this place. *added because many don't know this*)  Anyway, Brad McQuaid leaves Verant (prior company name before Sony Online Entertainment took over) to go develope Vanguard: Saga of Heros (due out sometime next year), and as soon as he did, down came the nerf-hammer on rangers.  So badly were they nerfed that the term "ranger down" became the laughing stock of every server and every butt of jokes out there.  No lie, ask any ranger and they'll tell you.  A class once the best, became the worst.  It wasn't until very later in the game, that rangers were fixed, at a cost of being level 50+.  So SOE is VERY capable of acting in this manner.</P> <P>Not only that, but there's a motive involved.  You have a game that's not exactly taking off as they expected.  What better to keep people around then have them rush out and re-level a character to keep them occupied?  You can even buy another account now and power-level your alt to your heart's content with the /lock encounter removed from the game.  I know it sounds underhanded, but let's look at the whole picture of changes, shall we?</P> <P>People will get their templars back one of two ways:</P> <P>1.  They will scream to get their balance now or, </P> <P>2.  They will leave and SOE will coax them back with a 7-day free trial after they are fixed.</P> <P>SOE is already offering a free 7-day trial after they fixed the things people have threatened to quit about before and did.  I guess they never expected them to actually leave and their "loyal customers" offered no sympathy to their pleas and basically laughed them out the door.  Now everyone is complaining the zones are dead.  Well, moral here is:  People shouldn't laugh at other people's concerns because those concerns may become theirs someday.</P> <P>Feel free to correct my facts Moorguard if you like.  You were there, so you should know. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kayle]

<P>Any [Removed for Content] could see you were complaining Dragonrealms, go read your "miniscule" healing comparisons again and then come back and try to convince us you weren't.</P> <P>And why you are here on a templar forum anyway with this wish-washy talk of jumping back and forth is beyond me.  From reading your posts, I can't make any sense of what point you are trying to make as you just complained and now don't complain, yet tell ME to get off my high horse when YOU are the one who comes into a thread with nothing much of anything to contribute whatsoever.</P> <P>Another non-templar just trying to muddle up the subject with a bunch of nothing.</P> <P>I've read your posts before.  You were one of the ones who screamed for this change to happen.  You demanded cures and equal healing.  I recognize you so I know exactly why you are here.  It's because of people like you that we're here trying to figure out if anything is left salvagable of our class.  Thanks a lot.  You got your wish, now go away.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaylena wrote:<BR> <P>Aonein, as you may know, SOE has done this before.  Where there were too many of one class and not enough of another, they nerf the one they have the most of and then overpower the one they have the least of.  Then people rush out and make that super-powered alt, only to find out 6 months down the road, the scheme reverses itself again.</P> <P>I'll give you some history as I've lived it:</P> <P>I had a ranger in EQ1 and pre-kunark it was the best class to have.  Brad McQuaid, one of the original Everquest 1 developers, used to play a ranger (Moorguard knows this well too.  It was Moorguard who ran the EQHunters website, a place for Everquest rangers before he was hired by SOE to moderate this place. *added because many don't know this*)  Anyway, Brad McQuaid leaves Verant (prior company name before Sony Online Entertainment took over) to go develope Vanguard: Saga of Heros (due out sometime next year), and as soon as he did, down came the nerf-hammer on rangers.  So badly were they nerfed that the term "ranger down" became the laughing stock of every server and every butt of jokes out there.  No lie, ask any ranger and they'll tell you.  A class once the best, became the worst.  It wasn't until very later in the game, that rangers were fixed, at a cost of being level 50+.  So SOE is VERY capable of acting in this manner.</P> <P>Not only that, but there's a motive involved.  You have a game that's not exactly taking off as they expected.  What better to keep people around then have them rush out and re-level a character to keep them occupied?  You can even buy another account now and power-level your alt to your heart's content with the /lock encounter removed from the game.  I know it sounds underhanded, but let's look at the whole picture of changes, shall we?</P> <P>People will get their templars back one of two ways:</P> <P>1.  They will scream to get their balance now or, </P> <P>2.  They will leave and SOE will coax them back with a 7-day free trial after they are fixed.</P> <P>SOE is already offering a free 7-day trial after they fixed the things people have threatened to quit about before and did.  I guess they never expected them to actually leave and their "loyal customers" offered no sympathy to their pleas and basically laughed them out the door.  Now everyone is complaining the zones are dead.  Well, moral here is:  People shouldn't laugh at other people's concerns because those concerns may become theirs someday.</P> <P>Feel free to correct my facts Moorguard if you like.  You were there, so you should know. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep im aware of all this, i also played EQ1 since late 1999 i was lucky enough to see the and feel the Monk nerf, you would remeber that one. I stopped playing EQlive so much when EQ2 came out.</P> <P>The porblem here is they dont just single out anyone class, if your going to change a sub class, they have to redesign and change an entire arch type because the whole system revolves around the arch type and not the sub class.</P> <P>To change anything and not change the entire arch type line would mean that for certain sub class they would be breaking out of the arch type and this isnt what SoE advertised on release, they advertised stuff like " all class's with in each arch type will do the same job equally " this means tanking, dps, healing etc, but because of the arch type system they will never be able to balance utility through the arch types with out another wanting some sort of utility back to counter act for that sub class's utility.</P> <P>This problem could of been fixed if instead of 4 arch types basically making only 4 class's to chose from depending on taste, they could of made 6 arch types, spread the utility combos across the player base much more evenly, would of also given the player base a bigger variety to chose from and a less constrictive feel.</P> <P>This wouldnt mean you would need one class from each arch type to make a succesful group because it would all depend on the taste of the player, also you could still have the 24 sub class's. 6 arch types = 4 sub class's per arch type spreading the utility out and giving them a better role to fill and giving players alot more room to breath. This would be acually a good thing because instead of being stuck revolving around 4 class's to group with, we would have a larger variety and choice to chose from when building a group.</P> <P>This could be something they have planned later on down the track, not sure how they would implement something like this though with out it turning into a Berserker type change like EQlive where Berserker were basically useless till they had Time gear and up and a few hundred AA. The other thing is, if they decided to in the future release a new arch type, does this mean we have to go through a full combat revision all over again?</P> <P>For me, i feel you should be able to breath a little better witn in the arch types, not be so constricted to be a pure class, with no option of becoming some what of a hybrid with in that arch type.</P> <P>I will admit you are very correct about the 7 day trial, many people have left, Everfrost server alot of zones are empty now, even Lavastorm and Everfrost zones are empty alot, i have them to myself to farm for rares alot lately and when i get bored with farming, i dual box my zerker and a Illusionist im working on while my wife plays along side me with her Templar, and for the most part, the only zones i really see some people in at lower lvls is Antonica and TS, Dungeon zones again almost always empty. Once you leave TS and start going to higher zones like EL, Zek etc, almost baron wastelands.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 PM</span>

[Dalchar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kaylena wrote:<div></div> <p>You want to know what you can give us in utility for sacrificing our mitigation, buffs, heals (they've been dumb-downed by comparison to what we used to have considerably), I will tell you.</p> <p>Give us your group invis and give us our group cures back and I won't say another word, ok?</p> <p>Are you willing to give that up?  I'll throw in our water breathing line too, how's that, Dalcharis?</p> <p>/em can't wait to see his answer.  LOL!</p> <p>Oh and btw, I just read my guild leader making a recruit post for furies when there's already too many healers in our guild and plenty of people sitting around waiting for a spot in raids.  Does that tell you anything?</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class="date_text">08-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:19 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> LOL I can honestly say you can have invis I hate it, it has just resulted in more naggy runs than I can personally stand <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  80% of the time I just run past everything nowadays.  Everyone's heals got dumbed down, so that wasn't just you.  Every priest deserves group cures, I don't see why temps couldn't have them all in general, but if they want to go with a 2 cure limit for some odd reason, I guess they have the right ones matched with the right classes in general with their other given spell lines.  I understood that there was a dispairty between some classes only having 1-2 options for group cures and it required training options to boot.  Then forming up a raid and making sure everyone had appropriate cures was kinda rough if you were low on priests for a raid. I wasn't attempting to be nasty, it was just an honest question, if you could add something to your class, what would it be.  Something similar to damage shields that is a single target toggle mitigation buff?   Umm... I don't know enough about temps to know all that they do or don't have.  Really what I see a lot of is "this class has XXX, that class has XXX and we don't, it's not fair!"  Which isn't completely productive and I don't have the experience to tell what temps do or don't need.  Of course, the question would be posed in regards to within the current confines of the plans for all priests in general, relative equal healing albeit through different means and relatively even utility/abilities whatever that may include.  And you probably don't want something other classes have as well as well, that's nothing really unique to make you special and desired for that ability in a given situation.  "I think a good templar ability idea would to be to have something that does XXX, which seems rather class appropriate and useful and by golly, neat as can be.  I think this would help reduce the dispairty between we the templars and other priests". That'd be the kind of productive statement I would like to see.  I see a lot of "that's not fair" without offering of ideas.  Not that every thread has to have one, but I don't see many, if any.  Getting mitigation back may well happen, I don't know, or how you'd get it supplied.  Developers are all still going through a lot... They balanced all the direct heals, who's to say that everything's done? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I have friends and guildies who are templars, I'd really really rather not lose them to an alt <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I want all priests to succeed and do well, while not leaving other priests out in the cold because "that class sucks for healing" kinda thing. I hope I clarified a bit more. /hugs to my templar friends.</span><div></div>

[Kayle]

<P>Nice to meet someone who remembers all this and more, Aonein <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>You get at the heart of change-repercussions and the lessons SOE should have learned well before now.</P> <P>The only thing I would add is that any developer should see by now that one should NEVER change what a player personally identifies with.  Once a game introduces a skill, trait or characteristic that symbolizes the core aspect of their talents, you don't deviate from that mid-stream without player upset.</P> <P>SOE tried to take 3 characters from EQ1: pure healer, hybrid and mystic and redefine them 9 different ways to Sunday.  That certainly isn't turning out as planned but one would have to have seen EQ1 as you did to know this.  I'd go back to EQ1 (even with it's own problems) but that's even deader then EQ2 is right now, unfortunately.</P>

[Kayle]

Nah, it's ok Dalchris.  I'm just edgy after reading my guild leader posting for furies and I'm sitting in here doing nothing.  Hey, if I asked for complete heal back from EQ1 would you freak? LOL! <p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 PM</span>

[SnowKnight]

Its simple we want to be the best at healing. Nothing more nothing less, we get ripped of for buffs and utility spells, healing is what we do. Failing that we want to have some BALANCE with other preist classes. Whos going to take a templar when they can take a fury(Whatever class im not sure) which heals just as well and gets 2k nukes to throw in a lull?

[Kayle]

<P>My friend on beta says it's already being discussed about the cures, btw.</P> <P>Templars are asking for ALL the cures BACK, in the form of ONE spell that cures it all too and from what she says, that seems to be the general concensus all are agreeing upon.</P> <P>We shall see if SOE listens.</P>

[kenji]

all in 1 cure definitely a Myth....but....i have Faith! we are Templars! 

[KlutchSteele]

well 1 think that just dawned on me today that is really bad is our adept III group reactive heals for about 175 more than our lvl 56 group reactive master I. Thats just wrong. same with single reactive. This im not pleased about, revamp of mitigation or not.

[Kayle]

Klutch, that one sounds like just an oversight.  I'm sure you said something on the beta boards or someone else did by now?

[KlutchSteele]

<DIV>The way it was explained to me was that because of the mitigation changes thats the way its gonna be because tanks will be getting hit for alot less. I just hope they do something about that because reactives, as we all agree, are our bread and butter, class defining skill. Ive made feedback so hope they do something. Just doesnt make sense that our single heals would get a good 75% increase and our reactives go down a good 25-30%. I hope a dev reads this here as well. Its my number one concern atm.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>dont want to feed the anger so deleted</P> <P> </P> <P>edit:</P> <P>one thing tho for the last times we dont have 2 k nukes we have 1 nuke which does atm do 500-ish dmg and one ae nuke which does 800-ish dmg.</P> <P>we dont have any heal procs we rely on our regen (1) and spam heals we cant get some nukage done if we are in a tough encounter and solo healing or something.</P> <P>As int is broke atm our main stat buffs are so too.</P> <P>you guys can take a hit better than me I can deal a hit better than you simple as that.</P> <P>Also how many furies did you have in your guild 0-1? and how many templars? heh yeah now furies are getting fixed guilds are scouting for em pff.</P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>09-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 AM</span>

[Ravenmi]

<P>You all can take a look at the Warden boards and quickly see I've been one of the driving forces behind getting the Wardens to calm down and feel good about the situation we're in on the beta right now.  </P> <P>I'd like to start out by saying I keeping hearing this line about You picking a Templars because you wanted to be a healer yada yada yada... bleh.  Ya know why I picked Warden?  It wasn't to be a buffer or dps I can tell you that.  I picked Warden because they where a Nature's version of a Templar from what SOE was saying at release.  Able to heal as well as a Templar but with a different style and flair that fit them.  I picked a Warden to be a healer, period.  Its not my fault if a bunch of old EQ1 players with EQ1 ideas in thier head came over here and assumed Templars would be the best healers without paying attention to what was being said by the devs at the time.</P> <P>Now with that said, what is this other bs I keep hearing spouted here?  Lets go over things again.  </P> <P>When you take reactives into consideration Templars have better healing power then shamans or druids right now.</P> <P>As far as most Wardens are concerned, you have much better buffs then we do and we'd gladly trade you.</P> <P>You have heavy armor, we have light.  This means much more choices for armor for you and better mitigation.</P> <P>You have odessy, which definately could use some tuning but is still useful in some situations.</P> <P>For all the things you got us beat on, we've got over you, SoW and Evac.  </P> <P>SoW is definately nice to have, but any scout in the group and you don't need it, any horse and you don't need it, I can't buy myself into heavy armor but you can buy better movement then we get.  With that said I'd still be more then happy if Templars got it too, its a movement buff, i could care less really if all priests could use it.</P> <P>Evac..  its another travel spell as far as I'm concerned.  5 Second cast time combined with interupts makes this spell dubious at best in getting out of a bad situation.  On top of the the range of its so short people have to be practically humpin yer leg for it to work.  Scouts get a much better version and in any group i've been in with one, they are the ones evacing when things get hairy.</P> <P>So wanna make a deal then?  Make our healing output as good as yours, give us your heavy armor and we'll let you have Evac.  I know I'd support such a deal. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I don't know a lot about other classes in comparison to you guys, but I do know where Wardens stand and You guys have no reason to ever complain about us unless something drastic happens.  I'm not looking for any Templar nerfs, not yet at least.  What I am looking for is Wardens regens to get a slight boost, and our buffs to actually do something useful and make sense.  Thats it, is that too much to ask?</P>

[Sinnester]

<P>It appears that you have forgotten about Wardens DPS and Templars lack of it.</P> <P> </P>

[Dragonreal]

I'll make a dps judgment after I see what the revamped templar dps looks like because CURRENTLY warden and templar dps is equal, I've seen it firsthand in game and I've seen posts outlining what templars have in the way of dmg.

[Imri]

I can tell you I finally got a chance to test my templar's combat abilities on the DoF beta. The current situation is 2 white mobs sent me running with upgraded spells and armor. It's not pretty, but most of our spells are now working fairly similar to the way they do now. he exceptions are our def debuff is only against physical damage now, which I hope gets the divine/magic/mental debuff added back in as well. Either that or our sign of corruption will be much mor eimportant for making our spells hit harder. Also they removed all group cures from every class and the special trains they give are master 2 versions of regular spells. That has me furious. Hopefully they will find a ways to work what we had for group status cures back in. Things are not to bad otherwise. <div></div>

[Ravenmi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sinnester wrote:<BR> <P>It appears that you have forgotten about Wardens DPS and Templars lack of it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>From what i've seen on beta Templar and Warden dps is pretty even, so can't use that card either.  Course that may change /shrug.  Anything could sitll change I suppose.<BR>

[Kayle]

<P>Be furious at the developers, not each other - none of us made the changes, they did it.</P> <P>We're at their mercy for the mechanics - They're at our mercy for a continued JOB.</P> <P>If it's that bad come Sept 12th, we'll all quit and then what? Nothing bad for us anyway.</P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Lol an all in 1 cure would be a waste, probably cost 500 mana, 500 mana to cure the group of 1 effect.... heh.</P> <P>Just give all priests all 4 cures in group form, none of this dual cure rubbish.</P> <P>Give us back the nice spells we liked that you destroyed to give us this dual cure crap we dont want.</P>