Gah how do you tell them

[Gwynet]

<DIV>When you are in a group that is obviously too low to do something, do you have a tactful way of telling them what you think?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had a few bad experiences there, of groups wanting to go to areas they are too low for. Sometimes we just die, sometimes we have to evac a lot... Today, I was in a group in Runnyeye with a 35 guardian, 33 SK, 32 brigand, 31 coercer and 30 necro. They wanted to do torturers. I told them it would be difficult because people below 33 would have a hard time making decent damage, or even hitting a mob, when they are 38 or over. We went to the miners and killed a group with a boss, it took a while and I was down to 20% power when we finished. They would still not believe me it would be too hard to kill harder mobs, the necro said 'yeah, our dps sucks' then that he was sarcastic, then said I was a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] when I said I was going to leave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't understand why groups with so many people below level 33 want to kill level 38-39 mobs, it's totally beyond me... when at 36 I still get good exp for the blue mobs at the top. How do you tell them what you think, without getting the kind of reaction I got above? Should I just say nothing, and risk losing a shard because the group can't even get back to them? I've spent the last 5 levels in Runnyeye, I think I know what kind of group is needed for those areas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do you all think?</DIV>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Always a hot topic of mine.  I'd rather chain pull blues than constantly rest up for oranges/reds.  In my case, I give three warnings. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe this is too difficult for us we should move to an easier area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is definitely too difficult for us we should move to a different area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And finally, this is too difficult, I can't keep up with heals and dps isn't killing mobs fast enough, I'm leaving if we don't move to an easier area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then just leave if the group doesn't want to.  Not like you'll have too much trouble finding another group with level-appropriate mobs.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Gobbwin]

<DIV>Its always tough, and if you say anything, you get labled as "the typical bossy healer".  Example, I had a group last night in SH, all in low 20s, we were killing writs in the library until the tank gated out and said have fun, but thats another story.  Instead of waiting to get another tank, they grab the first person to shout LFG, a bard.  I ask who the MT is going to be, as at this point i have the highest HP and AC and am the only healer.  One of the rangers volunteered, the rest of the group was happy with that and headed to the library.  I didn't budge an inch, I politely explained to them why this was a bad idea.  Got the typical flames and [Removed for Content] responses, but I stood firm, the only person to see things from my perspective was the ranger.  Cause the mages were way too focused on finishing their 3rd AQ that they weren't looking at the fact that we would surely wipe.  After several minutes of being flamed and promises of never getting a group with these people if I didn't yield, they finally gave up, someone left and we got a tank.  We headed back and the lvl 23 pally, 1300 HP, 800+ AC (can't remember exactly atm, but it was nice), nearly full suit of quested armor, with both of my reactive heals, the mob debuffed, and I was still throwing everything I had at the tank to keep him alive on several of the writs (yellow ^^s).  Was funny, after the first battle, where they saw both reactives going off at the same time, me keeping these refreshed, and throwing on instant heals as needed... their tune suddenly changed to "OMG ty soo much for not letting us go off and die, shard runs suck".  I hate to be that way, but I don't want to go get wiped because we don't have a chance in hell, I'm willing to try if we even have a slight shot, but 9 times out of 10 the healer is blamed on a group wipe, even if they pull when you are low on power and go 0% power very quickly into the fight... sigh o well.  We tend to focus more on will we survive, even if just barely, verses hey lets just go try!  just my 2 cp</DIV>

[Bobbubski]

<DIV>I hear exactly what you are saying, Gwynet.  It is always difficult to convey your feelings on a group performance issue and not being able to say it face to face since people usually take written text the wrong way.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in my experience, i've gotten best results in these situations with just saying the least amount needed to convey how u feel about it.  example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"hey!  lets go hunt X!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"No thanks, i would rather not" (thats all you really need to say)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if they press you further on the subject, short answers of "we are not strong enough" or "i don't have the time" will work.  the point is if u do not supply too much info by giving huge long winded answers, you cannot be attacked for stating your thoughts.  less = more.  think of it as handling children (haha, in many cases they are children!).  as long as u stay adamant (but fair) about your position, you will usually not get pestered that much further assuming the entire group is against you.  if that is the case, leaving may be your best option.  the people who know how to play will respect your style and know that you are a good player.  besides, good healers are hard to come by.  even if players do not agree with you, they will not discard you for that reason!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hope this helps.</DIV>

[Ender]

Somehow, my saying "I told you so" just doesn't seem to cut it.

[Fugaci]

<DIV>Personally I think you were being nice about it, they were being the jerks.  Maybe saying less, like I don't really want to fight those, if thats your plan you need to find a different healer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had similar problems with friends.  I haven't been called names, but I could tell they were getting touchy when I would suggest they do something a bit different so that I could help the situation, I mean who am I the Templar to tell a guardian, um that damage thing you put on me to protect me goes through my BOV, I typically don't take damage, and I don't normally heal myself so  if we are in a tough spot and i'm getting riposted, I don't really want to be healing you as a result.  Or when I say i'm going to run out of power run, the mob still has 4/5ths of his hits and half power and the tank says hold on I think we can make it and dies because i'm 4 rooms away already and if I actually come back i'm next.  Its more strained in pick up groups where someone doesn't want to take advice but it is always difficult.  You can either just leave and be polite, or try to explain why you are leaving.  And while explaining why you are leaving may be helpful to them in the long run, sometimes they don't show appreciation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Soemtimes the worst happens when you just try to suggest, um hey do you have a sheild? Cause if you do could you use it? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Fugacity on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>Happened again today, a group of 20-23 with a 21 templar as healer wanted to go kill the skellies near Varsoon (was with my bard). I just said I was too low for them and I left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll just never understand people...</DIV>

[Aurvid]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I agree with you Gwynet, people is never satisfy with what they can handle!<SPAN>  </SPAN>As a healer I can do well with higher levels than me but if the dps and the tank are too low for the zone, I might be able to keep everyone up but is so much of a pain…<SPAN>  </SPAN>then you find people without<SPAN>  the</SPAN> requisite for so-and-so double up red mob they want to kill, so freaking funny… this same people are the ones always running around like crazy and getting them selves killed and then when I say that I’m gating in 10 sec if everyone don’t stand still and camp something they ask “why?”</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I’m really very selective with my groups, some people love me for that, some others just hate me... <SPAN> </SPAN>either way, that’s ok!</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Alucard Moonshadow</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Aurvid on <SPAN class=date_text>12-17-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:54 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Aurvid on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:54 PM</span>

[Kyrakath]

<DIV>That setup would have a hard time down there without some AoE dmg from a wizard or warlock. I just tell the group straight up and why. Most mobs down there are level 39 and in large groups. Those 31 melees arent even going to be able to hit the mobs. You'd just run out of mana. But if say there was 2 warlocks in the group at level 31-33 youd be fine. Or you could just have fun and go down there. Just make sure a set up group like that doesn't attack the armorer and his crew, youd just get wiped. But I understand peeps. Some of us just want to be challenged and like to do new things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rhoulicas 35 Dark Elf Templar of Unrest</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kyrakathas wrote:<BR> <DIV>That setup would have a hard time down there without some AoE dmg from a wizard or warlock. I just tell the group straight up and why. Most mobs down there are level 39 and in large groups. Those 31 melees arent even going to be able to hit the mobs. You'd just run out of mana. But if say there was 2 warlocks in the group at level 31-33 youd be fine. Or you could just have fun and go down there. Just make sure a set up group like that doesn't attack the armorer and his crew, youd just get wiped. But I understand peeps. Some of us just want to be challenged and like to do new things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rhoulicas 35 Dark Elf Templar of Unrest</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well i have no problem with people looking for a challenge, but telling me I'm a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] because I don't think they will be able to hit the mob and won't do enough dps is not quite the same lol. I'll admit that I'm not so fond of challenges personally when it ends up in a 2 hour shard recovery when half the time people bail on you.</P> <P>In this case, I just think they were idiots.<BR></P>

[Ond]

<blockquote><hr>Gwynet wrote:<DIV>Happened again today, a group of 20-23 with a 21 templar as healer wanted to go kill the skellies near Varsoon (was with my bard). I just said I was too low for them and I left.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Hmmm, if it was just skellies around the Varsoon entrance, like the ones for wizzy armor quests, you could have gone and managed. Those are level 24-26, but more important no arrows and solo. However if they wanted you down in Varsoon, they wouldn't be able to see me from the sheer dust cloud of my feet.

[khrokh]

I usually say explicitely that i think we can t do it and give reasons. I am usually pretty adventurous so i m willing to try things where failure chances are pretty high.If the group still wants to try, i usually attempt to test them on the way. If my test proves to be a failure i will probably bail out. If not i ll stay (until the end of the CR).I have been pretty lucky and group mostly with a small set of people so i don't have that problem too much.

[Gwynet]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ondal wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gwynet wrote:<BR> <DIV>Happened again today, a group of 20-23 with a 21 templar as healer wanted to go kill the skellies near Varsoon (was with my bard). I just said I was too low for them and I left.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Hmmm, if it was just skellies around the Varsoon entrance, like the ones for wizzy armor quests, you could have gone and managed. Those are level 24-26, but more important no arrows and solo. However if they wanted you down in Varsoon, they wouldn't be able to see me from the sheer dust cloud of my feet.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not the solo ones hehe.<BR>

[TROri]

I've become fond of the statement "look at the time, I've got to go! Good luck with that XYZ quest"I have it hot keyed and since hot keying that phrase I have done 2 levels without more than 3% of a level carrying XP debt. I would rather spend 1 hour looking for a good group and 1 hour doing xp with them than spending 2 hours with a bad group, 2 hours doing a shard run and 4 hours making back the xp debt.

[Umbraxx]

<DIV>I usually tell them either "OMG! Look at the time!" or "Dang! I have to go do an important guild thing right now!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No sense wasting game time on idiots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Worst example cases are people who send you an invite that are clear across the zone from you (and you are a FOOL setting yourself up for massive death debts if you accept those kind of invites) and people killing no experience mobs to fulfill some green quest they are working on.</DIV>

[Ogrelicio]

<DIV>I get a sick feeling in my stomach when I *know* what were going to fight will mop the floor with us.  On one hand, I feel obligated to the group.  Why, I don't know.  On the other hand, I want to fabricate a reason to leave.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't mind dying.  It happens.  I do, however, have something against suicide runs.</DIV>

[Tobruk Boca]

<DIV>I kinda glossed over alot of these posts but I get the general idea of the thread... My solution was to stop pickup grouping. I only do it now if I absolutley must. I made friends with a good tank, and we've been together ever since.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tobruk</DIV> <DIV>37 Templar, Unrest</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>I don't have much choice unfortunately hehe.</DIV>

[Nyat]

<DIV>Yeah it's a tough situation.  I have often been labeled as "sissy" or "[Removed for Content]" because I like mowing down the blues and whites for fast, safe XP than struggling to take on mobs that while challenging or exciting aren't really efficient XP for the investment of time/energy/risk.  Then if you stand your ground, you get labeled a "cleric diva" (well that's from FFXI and "WHM Diva" but you get the idea). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen more than a few posts about uppity clerics who were demanding or such, but honestly, replacing a cleric in a group on my server is sometimes tough.  I get spammed with invites (both tells and the annoying blind invites) even when I'm anon, even when I'm zones away.  Maybe I'm being diva-ish, or maybe I just realize <EM>I have some leverage</EM>.  Let's face it, healer classes are vital to groups' success, but they aren't the most exciting to play.  We don't dish out the damage, we don't get the cool nuke, pet, or shapeshifting spells, we don't get to use any neat weapons...we basically stand there and suture.  Stitch stich stich those wounds back together...I call it the "stoplight" game...trying to keep all the bars "in the green" and "out of the red".  Toss in a debuff, and bash with hammer...call it a day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me, eventually it comes down to: I'm willing to listen to what people want to do, but if I don't want to do something, I won't do it.  Period.  If I have to leave a group, I'll leave a group.  If I get called a sissy, then I get called a sissy.  In the end, it's just my opinion against someone else's opinion, and nothing's forcing either of us to stick together if we don't agree.  There's always another healer LFG (eventually) and there's always another group looking for a healer (eventually).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't let these things get you frustrated, just stick to your guns and go with your instincts.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Nyatar  </DIV>

[Tobruk Boca]

<DIV>OK well forget the [Removed for Content] above me. Anyway, another technique that worked prior to getting a few friends was just writing down the people I grouped with that didn't suck. Then the next day I would try to group with them again. Same goes for morons, they got a special list too and the idiot above me is now on it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tobruk</DIV> <DIV>37 Templar, Unrest</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tobruk Bocage on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:36 PM</span>

[Ogrelicio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nyatar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah it's a tough situation.  I have often been labeled as "sissy" or "[Removed for Content]" because I like mowing down the blues and whites for fast, safe XP than struggling to take on mobs that while challenging or exciting aren't really efficient XP for the investment of time/energy/risk.  Then if you stand your ground, you get labeled a "cleric diva" (well that's from FFXI and "WHM Diva" but you get the idea). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I feel the same way.  If it's a named, or needed for a quest, let's try the tough ones.  Or, if I'm with two friends I group with pretty consistantly (I feel confident in their abilities).  But if it's a pick up group, I much prefer the blue mobs.</DIV>

[Kevr]

Im a newb, but im turning into one of you quickly<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Here's what happened. We were in a scary place(bb was scary at time of incident) We found a new room filled with mobs we could barely take down. MT and less qualified tank think their luis and clark. They start wandering off into unknown. I say "hey guys, some of the mobs we killed earlier are about to respawn right by you, you should wait for mana before exploring" Guys ignore my plea. "I say there friends come back,i won't be able to heal you if pops jump you". No response. "i mean it guys if you don't come back Ill have to disband" Again nothing. "mkay" and zap i disband. Group disappears from site and leaves me. I get a tell "Hey we found a way out were all getting out of here." Hmmm...a way out did sound nice. I was ticked that they didn't listen to me after three pleas. I reconsider.........."All right, i freaked, but i hope you see that if things are too insane i won't comply" "ROLF nps Mother we'll wait next time hehe". I accept the invite.I was correct to disband. It was the only way to get their attention. If they hadn't sent me a tell i would have done call and blazed with no regrets. Its rude to ignore someones pleas entirely. I never treat group members like that. Meh, they were being idiots. Motherblesser23 Templar 18 scholarNajena Server

[Nyat]

<DIV>"OK well forget the [Removed for Content] above me."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, that's just funny.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Nyatar</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>It wasn't directed at you... The post below yours got deleted.</DIV>

[amie]

<DIV>I agree that this can be a problem....but sometimes I don't really mind...I like the sense of adventure that goes along with wondering if you can manage a tough pull.  Although I don't like to camp in difficult spots, I will usually give anything a try...and usually it goes well, but it didn't go well tonight!  Our group was in RoV...had myself, a 29 templar, my favorite tank a 29 guard, then a 25 shammy, 24 monk, 25 wizzy, and a 27 ranger...not the greatest combo but we were having fun.  We saw a names skellie named The Creator in the room past the fireplace and we all agree that we should always try to kill named mobs!  Tank pulls, gets charmed about 2 seconds later, and the CR begins shortly after that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Little off topic, but I was laughing pretty hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I have usually been the one who starts the group, and when I invite people in, let them know what I intend to hunt, so they are on board from the get go...the worst for me isn't when people want to hunt hard stuff, but when people want to go kill quest mobs!  Oh, on the way to the giants, can we kill some beetles?  Grrrr...I just think its important that if you are making a group, that everyone is on board with what the goal is and where you are gonna hunt.  I don't mind a challenge here and there, but I dont like being suicidal...hehe...unless its a named!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I don't want to have a crummy reputaion eitehr...I dunno, tough call...but as the healer I think people shoudl be respectful of what you think you can handle...and if they arent well, I am sure we all have our lists of people who we wont ever hunt again with!</DIV>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>If you have a reputation of keeping your group alive, sticking around after wipes for revives and shard retrieval and just generally being a nice person you'll find any group you want.  I don't think disbanding because you think the group is headed for shard recovery oblivion is reason enough for anyone to blacklist you.  And if some random person never wants to group with you again because you refuse to do what he/she wants to do, so be it.  There are alot of other good people to group with out there.</DIV>

[JF]

<DIV>I usually voice my opinion once.  If the group wipes and says "we need to back off", then I stay.  If they want to go try it again, thats when I bail.</DIV>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Hopefully by "group wipes" you mean the tank dies and maybe some secondary character takes a death.  hehe... if the whole group wipes I hope you're deeep in a dungeon without an evaccer.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Zabumtik on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 AM</span>

[JF]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zabumtik wrote:<BR> <DIV>if the whole group wipes I hope you're deeep in a dungeon without an evaccer.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zabumtik on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:09 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is correct<BR>