How much focus should i have on healing non-tanks?

[Big Da]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>I spent a hugely enjoyable time yesterday wandering the globe as my Templar, I teamed up with a Wiz and a Paladin we made a pretty good group. I kept tank alive, Wiz didn’t draw undue agro or the tank soon got it back. Got through quite a few quests without a death.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Then we decided to explore further a field we gathered a few more members including an ogre, who insisted on being the new tank. Being a fairly laid back group we were happy to give him a shot. The new members also included an assassin who insisted I wouldn’t be able to maintain the party by myself. As we couldn’t find a backup healer we went out and decided to try our luck.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I forget the exact location we arrived at, but the ogre shouted ready ... while drawing the agro anyway</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The group was not fully buffed and the ogre had not drawn all the agro onto himself.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The situation soon broke down with the wizards etc beset by the undead.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>This resulted In a few dead people (including me) as I desperately tried to maintain the whole group, I stopped healing the others as my power got on the low side, while under the impression the tank should be healed as he'd draw the agro (which didn't happen)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The result was... with people lying dead, the assassin blamed me, the ogre blamed our level (one below his), and they both left the group (alive thanks to me!).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I was res'd by my paladin friend and we battled through to res the other dead.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>What am I supposed to do in this situation? Shout at the tank? Should I only heal the main tank? Should I heal a dying player the doesn’t run? Should i stop healing a tank that doesn't draw the agro from others on to him?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Id like to note that 20 mins later we fought against the same mob with the group I started with and came out fine!</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Teclis</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>L21 Templar</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Najena</SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Big Dave on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:39 PM</span>

[Zer]

<DIV>Forming pick-up groups can always be a challenge especially with people you are unfamiliar with. As a healer class it is important (imo) to remember that regardless of how much arguing may ensue between all the tanks that you will need to keep an eye on who is taking the most agro. Until the pecking order is established you may end up switching once or twice to keep two tanks battling out agro. Once the fight is finished, suggest that your power can be better served if (insert name) took agro.  Eventually (hopefully) everyone will find their niche and things will go smoother. </DIV> <DIV>Generally speaking ...bad groups don't last long....(my 2cp worth)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Zerbi on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[Donte]

<DIV>sounds like just a bad pick up group to me.  I wouln't blame anything on you.  I hate overzealous tanks that pull before buffs on tough groups.  Consider yourself lucky they left right away.  I forsaw more debt coming if they stayed.  You can make it as a single healer with smart groups.  Its the dumb ones that will get you killed.  I pretty much won't single heal with a pick up group.  Only guildies. Brush it off.</DIV>

[Aldur]

<DIV>I tend to agree with the above posters, you just had a bad pickup group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keeping your tank alive is always important, but you also have to look at what you are fighting as well as what other classes you have in your group. Lets face it, you and your group memebers are going to die from time to time. Usually death occurs because you aren't ready, take on somthing that is simply to big, or your group isn't working as one. Even under perfect conditions people die just because someone hesistated or it can be as simple as a run of bad luck for that poor mage that always gets aggro even though he hasn't cast a spell yet and was on the other side of the group minding his own business. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other thing you may want to keep in mind is what people are wearing for armor in pickup groups. When primary tanks don't even have all their quest armour at lvl 26 and are wearing grey items that is usually a sign of impending doom. Your tank is only as good as his ability to avoid damage. At the end of a long battle when your tank has low ac and mitigation you will notice you have very little/no power left whereas a tank who is in good armor and has good stat boosts will leave you with half your power.  I guess I could go on and on about grouping but the bottom line is you have to figure that out for yourself. Group with lots of people and you will know what works and doesn't work for you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laters,</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>I agree, those people are idiots that don't deserve your time. It happens everyday unfortunately. Heck, my group today called me a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] because I told them that people level 31 are not really efficient at killing level 38+ mobs.</DIV>

[rtoub]

<DIV>Sounds to me like the ogre was a [expletive self ninja'd by Rtoub].  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He: </DIV> <DIV>Pulled too soon</DIV> <DIV>Couldn't maintain agro</DIV> <DIV>Didn't appoligize for either</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like a candidate for </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Faith Respect -> Odyssey -> /disband [expletive self ninja'd by Rtoub] ->  /ignore [expletive self ninja'd by Rtoub].  </DIV><p>Message Edited by rtoub on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:32 PM</span>

[Ye]

<DIV>Well, it's pretty safe to say, and has been, that it sounds like you just picked up some inconsiderate players. But going back to your original question, I have some things to say about that because this is a real sore spot that has led at least a few players to /ignore me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all, this is my point of view. If the tank folds, the entire party folds. As such, I consider priority #1 to be keeping the tank alive. That doesn't mean that I won't toss a heal on another player, but I have a very 'harsh' method of handling adds. During the fight, if a member gets agrod by something and is not the tank, I'll toss one BoV on them, and thats it. I have a few reasons for this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1) If I keep healing them, 99% of the time the goofball thinks "Ah, I've still got health, I'll just keep using my skills and knock this thing out fast" and before either mob is at half life, I'm oom.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(2) I know, and have seen over and over that desparate heals on the non-tank does not end in "Wow we barely came through that one", it equals "OMG, it went after the healer right after she let me die, who is going to raise me now, this healer sucks."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(3) Last is my personal favorite. I treasure conversations like this, but I'm sad the only people who seem to get them are other healers:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dead Player: Thanks for the death noob, try healing me next time.</DIV> <DIV>Me: You're welcome. It was either you or the entire group.</DIV> <DIV>Dead Player: We were fine, you still have power.</DIV> <DIV>Me: Right. As soon as you finally died, agro was back on the tank, you know, the one not getting hit for 400 each swing.</DIV> <DIV>Dead Player: Whatever, you need to learn your job.</DIV> <DIV>Me: I'm always learning, just like how you just learned to not spam cast on an add so the tank can get it under control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A tank should be able to grab agro easy on any add. But if the player turns and not only starts attacking the add, but starts to spam their skills, I stop healing them. Not trying to be mean, it's just the only way to keep everyone in the party alive who is actually doing what they're supposed to be doing.</DIV>

[zalipolo]

Pretty simple really. You should always keep everyone but the tank at least alive so as to not incur debt to the party. However if it comes down to a situation between letting a few non tanks die and otherwise surviving the fight. Or letting them fall because the loss of your tank would mean group wipe then let them die. Only you will be able to judge based on experence(what your fighting, effectiveness of your heals, size of your power pool, how many enemies, how much power left, tanks health etc etc). More and more playtime hones your ability to make that call correctly.

[Ond]

zalipolo hit the nail on the head, there's no real rule of conduct to keeping non-tanks alive. The group you were in, well, you should just have disbanded, it was a bad group, nothing more to it.In general I refrain from healing other than the main tank, sometimes it's needed of course, the classic is suddenly a wizard gets the club, not their fault, it just happens. The wizard will usually get a BoV from me when they go orange, maybe an instant if red, but if there's any doubt about the tanks life, well, the wizard will be sacrificed for the survival of the group. One thing that usually works is when the non-tank dies, the actual tank will regain agro, meanwhile I as the healer having kept the non-tank alive will get a few punches, that's where platemail and shield comes into the game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Once the tank has regained agro, depending on how low on life the mob is (high life yes, low life no), I'll combat revive whoever died. It's always a toss up and there's no simple rules for when to heal and when not to, it's all about experience with specific mobs and general feeling about the encounter. If someone gives you a hard time about your decisiones, you yourself have to evaluate if it's justified, if not there's the ultimate weapon of disbanding, though you might want to give a warning about it, some in the group are usually nice people not to be left for death.Overall, non-tanks shouldn't expect to recieve heals with a single healer in the group, if there's a second, it's a good idea to agree with them on who keeps who alive. So whoever is picked as "secondary" (I hate that expression, they're just as valuable as the "primary") gets to debuff, spot heal tank and keep non-tanks alive.

[Malaki]

<DIV>Well when i group which is once in a blue moon atm, i consider my role tobe  keeping the GROUP alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes the tank is important, but so is everyone else IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ken]

<DIV>What I hate is when multiple people in the group are taking a beating (I'm the only healer).  Non-tanks don't have the armor which means I have to use my expensive heals plus I gotta keep multiple people alive which means changing targets, plus it means having to monitor/time heals on both players, etc.  It just makes it a lot tougher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Malaki there are times where attempting to keep everyone alive will mean a group wipe instead of a loss of say one person.  You aren't doing your group any favor causing a group wipe.  The easy case here is you start a tough battle.  If someone other then the tank takes aggro and you switch to healing them, you probably just caused a group wipe.  No way you can keep up with the healing on a caster without using all your mana very quickly and then of course everyone is dead since you have no healing left.</DIV>

[Bobbubski]

<DIV>as many have posted above, single death is far better than a group wipe.  a couple other things to consider perhaps:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) with the mobs that have AoE spells, you may have to do some spot healing until the non MT's learn to get behind the target or else back off a safe distance.  don't be affraid to really hammer the point home to move so u are not getting hit with AoE damage.  feelings can be mended a lot faster than xp debt =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) in the situation where multiple members are being hit, it is usually a sweet deal to throw your group reactive heal (such as SS).  since many peeps cast group reactives anyway to help with damage mitigation on the higher lvl mobs that hit for high numbers, it usually helps somewhat to keep others alive until tank can regain agro.  also, if u cast a group reactive, it is faster and more mana conservative than tossing 3 or 4 BoVs.  one thing to be mindeful of is that supposedly reactive heals garner agro on the one who is being healed.  not sure how much harder this makes it for the tank to take back agro... but just something to keep in mind.</DIV>

[ThikNogg]

<DIV>After the first pull when multiple people are getting hit I start into my 'healer speech"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I start with a subtle...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Everyone but the tank should be behind the mob."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it keeps up...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I am only concerned with healing the tank during the fight. If you get aggro you better figure out how to lose it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and finally...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"If you do something stupid and die it is NOT my fault."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they cant figure it out after that? Well there are plenty of groups out there that have a friggen clue. Lifes too short to deal with bad groups for too long.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ThikNoggen on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 AM</span>

[Err]

<DIV>I sometimes find it useful to chuck a few heals to mages at the end of long protracted fights if I have the power left but they dont, purely to take advantage of their ability to turn health into power.  This can mean some big nukes to take the last few mobs down without having to rely on standard turn by turn combat (i.e. no specials from anyone else as they are all OOP).  Its generally more efficient for them than me casting a "nuke" (if you can call it that). </DIV> <DIV>Problem is when they start doing the health->power thing I sometimes panic thinking they're being attacked :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Darioun]

<DIV>The only thing I can see you did that might be considered wrong is not sending the run call.  I play with a regular group, so I don't have the random idiot problem often, but if I get low on power, I cast a group reactive heal, and while it's going off I tell everyone that as soon as I stop casting run as fast as you can.  Group reactive heals can give everyone the chance to get away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not heroic, but I'd much rather we all run than anyone dies.  Fortunately, everyone in my group has learned that if the priest says run, the fight is not winnable.</DIV>

[Bwatu]

<DIV>i just tell the group when i join that tank gets healed. if you draw aggro through overzealousness and i have sufficient power/solo mob, i will heal you. otherwise stand there till the first flashes of my reactives on tank go off. he should have mob well under control by that point and nuke/dps to your hearts content. i also warn about AoE spells as they seem to draw adds more in close quarters areas and chaos soon ensues. most agree that this is an effective strategy and comply. a few times i insisted on group lead status so i could boot offenders to my rules. this grabs peoples attention fast. i believe it is more effective than dropping a group by yourself as you may be in unkind territory. the threat seems to keep most inline and we function well as no one wants to get booted in the middle of nowhere with mobs all around. does that make me a dictator?</DIV>

[khrokh]

These cases are the ones where i start to roleplay a stubborn dwarf and just refuse to heal people before i gave them the "go". Tank usually asks the group if they are ready before a pull (or a set of pull depending on killing speed), and he expects the cleric to answer. If he didn't ask, how can he know i just spilled my beer on my keyboard and am trying to lick the remains between the keys.Btw, occurences where a single well played templar is not enough to heal a group seem to be almost nonexistent, so anyone that joins your group and asks for a backup is probably wrong. Back in the beta it was not always the case so many people decided that the optimal group had 2 healers, but honestly it isn't anymore (I ve been spamming the beta boards with threads about 2 healers being needed per group for most of the beta period, and i feel that this issue has really been fixed).

[Malaki]

<DIV>Almost all of the groups i have been have had at least 2 healers, so if people die its down to either me or the other healer not doing there job but with 2 healers death should not happen unless you get adds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hunt with my guild occacionaly and NEVER have an issue with the tank losing aggro so i only have to contentrate on him, except the occasion group heal to top up casters HP (from them using their Health---->Power Skill)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nyat]

<DIV>I don't usually have a problem with healing non-tanks; hate management in this game is pretty well-done I think as long as the tank has power.  My only disclaimer is to mages who use the "conversion" spells to turn their health into power; I will only start healing them once they go into orange unless I'm sitting around with a ton of wasted power.  I am not a mana battery, and I don't enjoy using my power to replace their health which theyre using to replace their power.  It brings back memories of necros in EQ1, only...in...reverse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Nyatar</DIV>

[Tobruk Boca]

<DIV>I have not read all the responses to this post but I wanted to respond to the post above mine. I actually find it irritating sometimes how much mages and other classes do this. The reason being is this: If I let you get to orange health, you are in danger of being killed by a barrage or accidentally stealing aggro. Casters especially. Everyone pays for your death, myself included. I have no choice the way I see it but to fill these guys up as fast as they can eat themselves alive. Which sucks because once I'm out of power, things get ugly fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tobruk</DIV> <DIV>37 Templar, Unrest</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tobruk Bocage on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 AM</span>

[Nyat]

<DIV>Misunderstood.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Nyatar</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nyatar on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>Some tanks are better than others unfortunately.  Personally, I like the tank that taunts and ae taunts and that's about it really.  I don't want him throwing down big offensive abilities if he's main tanking.  I don't want him to be without a shield if he's the main tank... etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for your group, sounds like you had a tank that was a little too high for the group that wanted to take on things that were far too hard for the group as a whole.  As they say, don't sweat the small stuff... I'm sure there are alot more wipes ahead for all of us where we get blamed for not keeping the group alive.  Just keep a good attitude and disband from a group if they want to continue accumulating xp debt fighting critters that are obviously too hard for the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, you're a healer, not like it's difficult to find a group.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  However, it IS difficult to find a healer that is willing to support a "by a hair" kind of encounter repeatedly.</DIV>

[Lut]

Heal whoever you want. I personally havnt got myself in the "I only heal the tank" Rut, I'll try and keep everyone alive the best i can, and if it get too hot its time to run or do the last stand tactics. But then again XP dept doesnt scare me as much as it seems to other people.Teclis : You just got a couple of bad or lazy tanks, some are pretty unobservant beyond hitting the guy in front, this 1 main tank philosophy breeds lazy players :p You had 2 tanks and yet it sounds like neither noticed a missing mob(s).... *scratches head*...even my dwarven zerker notices when he only has 3 mobs of a 4 mob pull on him...and usually goes looking for it...but heck, if he cant pull the mob off, he would sure appreciate a little breathing room from the healer while taunt re-cycles....In the end its up to you what you do in a group, who you heal, who you dont, theres way too many different variables in an encounter to say what is right and what is wrong. The biggest problem is how everyone expects you to play, as noted by all the sagely EQ1 clerics nodding and telling you how to play the game, find youre own style, otherwise healers will get boxed in by thier own rules, and the game will become rapidly boring.Lutok/Cedok

[rtoub]

<DIV>I think it is all about priorites.  The tank is the highest and I only heal non-tanks if the tank is in good shape.  If a non-tank is about to drop or die I usually risk the tank a bit as I have a "no dirt nap" policy in my groups.  However I will let somebody die if I can save the tank.  I only get upset with debt if there are 3 or more complete wipes in a short time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for healing the mages who convert life into power it seems like there is a good return rate on my mana to theirs.  Pretty cool if it is not abused.  I asume that they know what they are doing and stay back when they are in the orange.  I returned minor heal to my bar just for them as for now it is enough to move their heath bar up noticablly and doesn't use much power.</DIV>