Weakness or Sign of Weakness?

[Talas]

I'm a level 24 Templar. I've had a question about one particular spell line.. For a single pull, would you use Weakness (which is gray to me), or Sign of Weakness (which is a multi-target spell)? I hate using a gray spell, but on the other hand, I hate using the power required for a multi-target spell on a single pull. Does anyone have any number on what effect Weakness has vs. Sign of Weakness?thanks for any helpTal<p>Message Edited by Talasyn on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 AM</span>

[Ephigy]

<DIV>I agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use Sign just because it is not grey to me, but what the effects are vs weakness would be good to know.</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>I got the upgrade to sign of weakness yesterday. I'm still totally confused whether I should use it or not, I have the adept 1 of sign of weakness and I know how well spell upgrades work... I wish we could see some numbers <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ken]

<DIV>I read a post that stated that the spells stacked so cast them both!</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>I don't believe in posts that state that two spells stack until they come from a dev.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't believe in icons either - like daring and courage stack, and BoV and SP stack, but only one actually works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, weakness at 20 is probably debuffing for so little that it probably doesn't matter.</DIV>

[Zabumt]

<DIV>For once, I totally agree with Gwyn here.  All depends on experience.  Don't even look at stacking, stacking doesn't seem to mean much in this game.  Sign of Weakness takes a LONG time to cast compared to weakness.  I'd like to see a log of what works better.  Until then, I'll be AC debuffing and SPing my tank and worrying about sign of weakness when I've got time to actually cast the spell.  Which isn't often if I'm a solo healer.</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>I think it's one of those things that are really hard to actually test it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I always use sign of weakness when I group, I have the adept 1 and assume it must do something. Figures if we debuff they attack, even a bit,  it's less healing I will have to do.</DIV>

[Ogrelicio]

<DIV>I use Sign every fight, and occasionally Rebuke.  I use Sign on single pulls too.</DIV>

[amie]

<DIV>Well, here is what I do...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't Vitae on the pulling tank, then cast Sign while the mob is incoming....when Sign wears off, I will cast normal weakness during the battle, because the cast time on sign is so long, and it seems to have some effect...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wish our debuffs lasted the duration of the fight! hehe.</DIV>

[Auria]

<DIV>          I believe Templar debuffs are the least used aspect of our class, for various reasons. Most people concentrate solely on the healing aspect, which is good - you hit the point, but our debuffs are quite potent. </DIV> <DIV>          Take for example, level 38 spell Reproach, from the AC/mitigation debuff lines. Any of the AC/mitigation debuffs allow a 2 level (in my experience) drop in minimum to hit, or more clearly, something that usually required a level 40 melee dps to hit, now only needs a 38. What makes these spells clearly nasty is that the same applies to the mitigation of the various spells. My static group has a wizard and illusionist, which, with the arcane mitigation debuff of Reproach, can have spells "stick" on mobs approx. 9 levels higher then them, depending on mob class/type. </DIV> <DIV>           As for Weakness/Sign of Weakness, I used to always worry that the AE version would pull more aggro, cost more power. Quite frankly, I dropped Weakness as soon as I got app3+ of Sign of Weakness, simply because the debuff on the lesser spell was barely noticeable and there is no single target Weakness upgrade. The higher spell, in general, causes a 20% or so decrease in melee damage taken by my tank at Adept1 (Who is a monk, so I don't know about the effect on plate tanks). Numbers for Weakness type spells are probably close to our Strength buff, Protectorate, just in reverse.</DIV> <DIV>          From experience, take it for what it is, cast the AE version of Weakness as soon as the tank has secured aggro, unless the encounter seems so easy that it isn't necessary, or so tough, it wont stick; and ALWAYS (with emphasis!) cast the AC/mitigation debuff immediately afterwards on the MA's target. Fights are more efficient this way, resulting in less healing needed, and more damage done quicker.</DIV>

[Lamprey_02]

I always debuff with sign. No clue if it's any better than the single target, but I got the adept for it and it saves me looking through the spellbook when we get a group of mobs. It does make a HUGE difference in mob dmg output, that I'm certain of. I also have adept of disgrace and that one's a large boost to dps as it debuffs ac and magis resist. When soloing, it doubles what I hit for with the hammer, so it's gotta be doing *something* for the dps classes...

[Gwynet]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Auria wrote:<BR> <DIV>          I believe Templar debuffs are the least used aspect of our class, for various reasons. Most people concentrate solely on the healing aspect, which is good - you hit the point, but our debuffs are quite potent. </DIV> <DIV>          Take for example, level 38 spell Reproach, from the AC/mitigation debuff lines. Any of the AC/mitigation debuffs allow a 2 level (in my experience) drop in minimum to hit, or more clearly, something that usually required a level 40 melee dps to hit, now only needs a 38. What makes these spells clearly nasty is that the same applies to the mitigation of the various spells. My static group has a wizard and illusionist, which, with the arcane mitigation debuff of Reproach, can have spells "stick" on mobs approx. 9 levels higher then them, depending on mob class/type. </DIV> <DIV>           As for Weakness/Sign of Weakness, I used to always worry that the AE version would pull more aggro, cost more power. Quite frankly, I dropped Weakness as soon as I got app3+ of Sign of Weakness, simply because the debuff on the lesser spell was barely noticeable and there is no single target Weakness upgrade. The higher spell, in general, causes a 20% or so decrease in melee damage taken by my tank at Adept1 (Who is a monk, so I don't know about the effect on plate tanks). Numbers for Weakness type spells are probably close to our Strength buff, Protectorate, just in reverse.</DIV> <DIV>          From experience, take it for what it is, cast the AE version of Weakness as soon as the tank has secured aggro, unless the encounter seems so easy that it isn't necessary, or so tough, it wont stick; and ALWAYS (with emphasis!) cast the AC/mitigation debuff immediately afterwards on the MA's target. Fights are more efficient this way, resulting in less healing needed, and more damage done quicker.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You've tried the upgrade to Sign of Weakness? Do you think it's worth using it? I don't even know anymore, lol.<BR>

[Auria]

<DIV>Yes, I use the upgrade to Sign of Weakness (Sign of Debility I think, hehe) every fight, single pull or AE. I can only figure that it debuffs strength approx. as much as Protectorate/Praetorate of equal level, so ~30pts or so. This results in melee mobs doing far less dps to my poor monk tank, and thus much less work for me. Also, as strength is used to generate power for warrior classes (mobs can be classed), it might be possible that you drain 30-50pts. off their power pool as well (speculation). :smileysurprised:</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>How would you compare the app2 of it to an adept 1 of sign of weakness? Sorry for all the questions, just got the spell and I just know it's not worth casting yet, lol. Just no way of knowing when it will be worth it.</DIV>

[Auria]

<DIV>Hrm, haven't done an exact check on how much each debuff reduces mob dps - but I think it would be safe to assume that the app2 version of a higher spell will be inferior to the adept1 of the lower spell for 3-5 levels, as is the routine.</DIV>

[Mal]

<DIV>I may have missed this comment in my brief browsing of the thread, but I think that there is one thing about Sign of Weakness VS Weakness that was left out.  While, SoW has a longer cast time by about 2x it also has a longer duration by about tha same, thus meaning you use less power debuffing and can use more for healing.  At least that is the way that I see it, I'll always use SoW over Weakness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arterious</DIV> <DIV>22 Wood Elven Templar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Malch Proudfoot</DIV> <DIV>22 Halfling Swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Menie </DIV> <DIV>17 Halfling Shaman</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fizious </DIV> <DIV>17 Halfling Crusader</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soshia</DIV> <DIV>16 Gnomish Monk</DIV>

[Kikmaid]

<DIV>The only problem i have with SoW to pull with is that I've never seen it 'affect' the mobs other than the one you cast it on, even if they're in a group.  It seems to work like as if the other mobs are mezzed (makes sense cause they're no in fight yet i guess) and doesn't affect them.  Once you're in fight with the group then it affects potentially all of them.  So I tend to pull with Rebuke or maybe just weakness and then do SoW once the group of mobs is engaged.</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>It seems to work better than it did a few weeks ago. Now, if I use it on an encounter, it will stick to all of them,except of course the ones that resist.</DIV>

[Daissen]

<DIV>What I like to do is cast BoV right when tank leaves for pull. It lasts long enough that it usually wears off anyway due to number of hits before time limit is up.  That leaves you free to cast debuff while mob is incoming, without worry of aggro. Another bonus to this method is that if tank takes longer than 3 seconds to initiate you start combat with a full power bar, and your first BoV out of the way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Angelah Brightsmiles  22 Templar</DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------</DIV>

[TROri]

<P>Use both. It works. And even if it didn't, who cares? Weakness is what 12 power? If you are being saved by 12 power you need to move.<BR><BR>Just make 2 hot keys just like this:<BR>:; useability Sign of Weakness ; useability Weakness<BR>:; useability Disgrade ; useability Rebuke<BR><BR>And courage and daring DO stack. Write down your stats, cast daring. Write down your stats, cast courage.<BR><BR>I can't remember but I think courage buffs up your stamina which increases your defense. Just write down all the stats and you will see a change. At least as of 12/1/04 I saw a change.</P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: I tested last night and I stand before you corrected: courage does not add anything to daring.  In fact, if you cast courage then daring I believe courage detracts from daring's power.</P><p>Message Edited by TROrion on <span class=date_text>12-21-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[FoxeyeVaeltaja]

I've been wondering the same thing. My bardic husband and myself have a bad habit of being precocial (duoing ^^ yellow mobs) and so it is not only imperative to debuff adequately, but to concern every little drip of power I can. When it is a single target I wince to be casting an AE spell that costs 30 extra power, but...I keep doing it anyways, because a scout tank needs all the help they can get. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Though honestly, he does pretty good. We'll see how good in another 10 levels or so, heh.)

[spacie]

<DIV>I have found that Weakness gets resisted more, and Sign of Weakness is rarely resisted, even by the red ^^ (to me at 23) group mobs.</DIV>

[Err]

<DIV>I use sign of weakness a LOT, but slightly offtopic (only slightly...) does sign of weakness break Mez? Similarly do other debuffs break mez, ie amending fate, mark of pawns etc.?</DIV>

[Auria]

<DIV>No, they don't break mez. (At least, Disgrace line and Weakness line don't.)</DIV>

[Err]

<DIV>Thanks for the reply.:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[ken]

<DIV>"EDIT: I tested last night and I stand before you corrected: courage does not add anything to daring.  In fact, if you cast courage then daring I believe courage detracts from daring's power."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At different levels they do different things.  When I first got daring it was better to use both.  After a few levels all I need to use is daring.</DIV>

[Solarax]

<DIV>i use both as they do in fact stack. i have weekness adept3 and sign of weekness master1 and its a HUGE diference especialy for tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for instance at lvl 25 you are in a group doing the EL boat ride and your tank sucks so you cast on the boss mob as the tank pulls and gets his bov and sermon eaten through. well you can now re cast bov and you will notice you arnt in as big a fix with how quickly he is going down . </DIV>