The point of Templars?

[AsraiBe]

<DIV>I am a level 30 Templar, and I'm starting to feel like this class has no real purpose.  I'm starting to feel like a [Removed for Content] compared to Druids and Shaman in terms of healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman/Templar in group = Me having little to ever heal.  Ward currently owns reactives.  Easy to do when a reactive heals for +90 on mobs that hit average +300 damage per hit.  Ward means the tank is always at 95% health without my help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid/Templar in group = I can half-effort do reactives and top-off heals.  You know, every once in a long while because the tank never falls below 80%.  Regen owns reactives.  It doesn't have to wait for the tank to get hit to work.  A regen can take a +300 hit and regen it back as the mob misses a few times, keeping the tank in 90%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just me in group = Spam heals and reactives to keep up, blow 60% power on easy fights.  A reactive takes a +300 hit and turns it into a +200 hit.  Yay... now the tank is consistantly losing health.  By the time I get off our slowpoke heals, he's been hit again and I have to start spamming just to keep even.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because my best heal is 300ish!  (recast of 15 totals seconds!)  My secondary heal is 200ish. (thankfully a bit faster)  That is ONE HIT from a mob!  Other healers have ways to make up this health.  A Templar can only spam heals.  When I'm alone, beginning to end I'm chaining Combat Healing, Arch Healing, Bestowale of Vitae, Suplicant's Prayer just to keep up with mob damage.  When I have a druid or shaman in group, I'm casting a reactive when it wears off about every 15 seconds, topping off tank health occationally because I have nothing better to offer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The funny thing is, the druid/shaman are hardly even trying to heal in those groups.  They're 'back-ups' and focusing on nuking and they're still embarrassing me in what they can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am just getting the feeling that I am playing a completly gimped and pointless class.  I wanted to be a Templar because I wanted to be the end-all-above-all of healing, and right now I'm sixth out of six in the healing department.  I wanted to be master healer.  What makes it worse is all 5 above me can do other things that help the group on top of healing better than me.  All my primary spells are at least App 3 or Adept 1, keeping me on average with most others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that what a Templar is destined to do?  To be a support healer who can debuff while Druid/shaman are primary healers and nuke?  No wonder its so hard to find groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or does a Templar's power not come into play until higher levels when we become invaluable?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or am I just overlooking an uber-spell in my book.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I really hope it's one of the last two, because I want to keep being a Templar but I'm sick of being the group [Removed for Content])</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>Our level 26 heal is broken, which certainly doesn't help. It should heal for 25% more at least to get in line with other classes (including inquisitors).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise, I also think that I am often a second healer more than a main healer in groups, but I really don't mind. It gives me more time to nuke/debuff, and I'm still there if someone really needs a heal fast. Give me an enchanter and I can heal good enough as only healer, even though if supplicant's prayer worked correctly it would be way better. But yes, I often have to spam as well because of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, it seems you chose templar for the wrong reasons, as I am sure that 90% of us did - it was stated from the start that all healers would heal as efficiently in a group. Honestly, I think that the best healer is druid, because it stacks just better with the other two.</DIV>

[Andvar]

<DIV>Druids are paper thin healers cant take hits for crap.</DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>The only thing that sorta sucks about templars is the lack of actual healing ability that reactive heals recover.  Ward is much better in the fact that it completly blocks the dmg, reactives only heal up to a certain amount every hit.  So your tanks getting hit for 200 and your vitae is only doing like 98 your wasting extra mana hitting him with like soothing sermon too just to make up or vitae and the 26 reactive the succors prayer or whatever it is.  Currently our heals are very inefficient at what they do.  I almost always have to throw in a combat heal or arch heal along with my vitaes just to keep everyone green.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druids arent much better off in that department from what Ive seen, infact they tend to caues my groups more debt then anything else cause they have some really annoying aggro heavy buffs and they cant take the follow up aggro quick strikes and beat downs till someone can heal them.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Andvarix on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[javis]

<DIV>I am only L22 and starting to notice what you speak of. When grouped with a druid/shaman my role is limited unless we get adds, etc. Anything within a normal pull and I am debuffing twice then basically meleeing (with my whole 10-20 damage per hit) I am not sure what the future holds for this class but if you are 30 then my short term experience will be more of the same. I wonder in their need to make all priest classes viable they may have overlooked templars. Don't get me wrong we can heal, just we are not nearly as effective as the other priest classes with their type of damage mitigation. Reactive was cool at first but now with mobs doing more damage than the reactive can heal, well it leads to mana waste because we are having to suppliment the reactive with more heals which leads to what AsraiBean's mentioned, heal spamming and OOP after even the easiest of pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sure hope this is looked at because I don't see anything but a higher version of our current spell lines which will mean more of the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for suggestions, I never want any class nerfed because I think the other priest classes are fine as far as damage mitigation with ward and regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would say give our regular heals faster recasts using less mana so we can mitigate faster in conjunction with BoV, OR I like this better, let BoV fire off double the heal per hit for less ticks this will allow us to mitigate the damage not picked up by BoV easier, anything more than 98 per tick (that is my current BoV heal at L22 using app3) when the mob is hitting for 100-400 heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the druids and shamans were shunned for straight healing in EQLive so now is the templar when thinking of damage mitigation in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just some thoughts, what are yours?</DIV> <DIV>-Izumal Neriak Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Whitemane]

<DIV>Hi there Folks:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im also a 30 Templar. When I first go the new heals I was expecting something that would blow me away and be soo much better than the lower level heals. I was a bit annoyed when I discovered at app.1  Supplicants Prayer only healed for 70'ish points. The 300 point AC buff was nice but ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways to my point before I meander off. We are not subpar at all there's a couple of points that might help</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i) ALWAYS upgrade your spells, even to just app II's it makes a HUGE difference, at lvl 30 you can easily afford the 1sp or so your App II's cost. if you can get Adept I or III's I strongly reccomned it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ii) Its seems alot of Templars do not know that ALL your reactives stack. BoV and Supplicants Prayer and the 2 group reactives can all be placed at once. Thats a crapload of healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>iii) Spot healing is Huuuuge mana sink. If you are having to spot heal you will run out of mana. I currently have 1280 power self buffed and If using just Arch/Combat or amorleation I will blow through it likely before the fight is done with a Yellow ^^ mob. Always make sure your Tank has both single target reactives on them before the fight begins. This gives you enough time to debuff the baddie before you have to restart the healing cycle again. If you dont you'll not have enough time to heal and debuff and your burn through your power too quick panic healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>iv) Use your Debuffs. It might not seem like they help but they do help alot. The make a noticeable difference. Amending Fate is even a pretty good heal ( 200 ish) points when upgraded to Adept Level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways hope it helps. Really the main difference is that Shammies are all about damage mitigation whereas we Templars are all about direct heals. Both are equally effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whitemane 30 Templar</DIV> <DIV><Children of The Light></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Whitemane]

<DIV>Hi there Folks:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im also a 30 Templar. When I first go the new heals I was expecting something that would blow me away and be soo much better than the lower level heals. I was a bit annoyed when I discovered at app.1  Supplicants Prayer only healed for 70'ish points. The 300 point AC buff was nice but ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways to my point before I meander off. We are not subpar at all there's a couple of points that might help</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i) ALWAYS upgrade your spells, even to just app II's it makes a HUGE difference, at lvl 30 you can easily afford the 1sp or so your App II's cost. if you can get Adept I or III's I strongly reccomned it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ii) Its seems alot of Templars do not know that ALL your reactives stack. BoV and Supplicants Prayer and the 2 group reactives can all be placed at once. Thats a crapload of healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>iii) Spot healing is Huuuuge mana sink. If you are having to spot heal you will run out of mana. I currently have 1280 power self buffed and If using just Arch/Combat or amorleation I will blow through it likely before the fight is done with a Yellow ^^ mob. Always make sure your Tank has both single target reactives on them before the fight begins. This gives you enough time to debuff the baddie before you have to restart the healing cycle again. If you dont you'll not have enough time to heal and debuff and your burn through your power too quick panic healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>iv) Use your Debuffs. It might not seem like they help but they do help alot. The make a noticeable difference. Amending Fate is even a pretty good heal ( 200 ish) points when upgraded to Adept Level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways hope it helps. Really the main difference is that Shammies are all about damage mitigation whereas we Templars are all about direct heals. Both are equally effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whitemane 30 Templar</DIV> <DIV><Children of The Light></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Whitemane]

<DIV>Opps sorry for the double post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>White</DIV>

[Lamprey_02]

I agree, being a lvl 25 templar when grouped with a 23 shaman I'm backup healer, and not a very necessary one at that. I won't lie, it does bite big time after playing a cleric in EQ1 for 4 years, but groups still seem to want me so it's not as huge a deal I suppose. Only thing is, I really don't feel as if I'm contributing that much to the group. The shaman can keep the tank in the green with their wards without a sweat so essentially the templar role becomes healing the adds and throwing in a spot heal or 2 between wards so the shaman doesn't go oom.

[Gwynet]

<DIV>Whitename, this is wrong. BoV and Supplicant's prayer do NOT stack anymore. They changed it sometimes last week, you only get the effect of the strongest, yet they both lose charges.</DIV>

[chrome]

Wow guys. I'm at 25, nearly 26, and I don't feel in the slightest that Templar is gimped compared to the others. Look at the whole package:1) Our vitaes all stack, even with the group ones. At 25 I'm doing BoV and SS and with an enchanter/bard in the group we can keep pulling non-stop with my power barely going to 75%. If something screws up and we get a couple of red ^^ guys, I'll probably burn all my power but we won't die. Was fighting golems in Varsoons last night and it was all DMG+Enchanter+Me. It rocked.2) We get to wear plate. I don't know about shaman and druid, but I don't think they get this? Inquisitor does I guess, but not druid and shaman. This means we can be up front with the tank, side by side, debuffing if needs be, close by if he needs a combat rez ... able to take quite a beating without dying in 2 seconds! Not many classes other than a real tank can do that. Hell, with my armor, my AC is usually on par with the main tanks.3) we get the Regimine line of spells which really are gonna rock at some point. These are super buffs. I don't think we're seeing the benefit at level 25-30 yet <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />4) Our vitae line of spells stack GREAT with Ward/Regen. Don't feel like just because the MT is being warded that you don't need to put vitae on there. What happens when the ward is broken in one hit? Your vitae (vitaes multiple hopefully) are there to do 90 + 90 healing (or more, if you upgrade!) per hit!Morale of the story is, if you're level 25 and your still wearing light armor and most of your spells are still app2, you need to seriously upgrade. Do the armor quest and make as much money as you can to buy those upgrades. They make a BIG difference! Right now I'm still on App2 for my vitaes which hurts, but by Arch Healing does nearly 300HP at my level and uses very little mana at Adept 1 level. I don't have any advice for you level 30s. I guess I'll be there sometime on the weekend and I'll be able to suggest something.But in no way do I feel my character is gimped./lfg(wait 15 seconds)A guy tells you, "Hey, looking for a group in EL/Varsoons?"If Templars feel their class is gimped, I don't think that perception is held by many others <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Lastly, I think that people are rushing to judge a particular class without actually playing it through and seeing how the next few months will go. There are probably a lot of corrections and fixes in the line, so we should just be patient. I agree that if our healing output is overall less than other classes, that needs to be fixed, but I'm not seeing that myself. I obviously need to get to level 30 to see the difference.Just go and drop into the other Priest forums. *everyone* is claiming that their particular class is gimped. Its really quite funny <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[AsraiBe]

<DIV>I was not aware there as any official statement that said 'All healers will heal equally' but if I had read that, I certainly wouldn't have picked a Templar.  Perhaps I did choose this class for the wrong reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I assumed, since shamen and druids get other ways to be useful to a group (or solo) that a Templar would be the best healer.  I mean... that's ALL we do.  60% of shamen and druids in a group is, at best, healing, because they have other things to do.  95% of being a Templar is healing.  I figured, since this class specializes in healing, that they would be the best at it.  Not equal to others.  Certainly not the worst.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What good is a cleric if they can't heal well?  It's such a frustrating question, because it's so frustrating to be embarrassed by a druid who spends 75% of his time nuking, 25% making up for what I can't do with 100% effort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can wear plate armor?  Seriously... when's the last time a tank in one of my groups lost aggro?  Maybe once or twice to an overzealous wizard.  NEVER to a priest.  Aggro in EQ2 is the easiest thing in the world for a tank to hold.  It is excessivly laughable.  Even then, I'm equiped in armor that makes most guardians my level drool, and I STILL can't take a hit.  A druid drops in 5 hits, I drop in 6.  I don't see much of an advantage here.  Plate armor on a priest is only for looking good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said, I do upgrade my spells at every chance.  If I have to spend 5 gold to get Adept 3 Bestowal of Vitae, I'd spend it in a second.  All my spells (that I use) are app 3 or adept 1.  Each upgrade seems to add +7 hp per hit to Bestowal of Vitae.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How worthless is +7 hp per hit when each hit is +300?  I would need Master 3 to be effective at this rate.  Master 3 at level 30 to hold equal pace with an app 3 Shaman ward.  That is not equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I appreciate your post, Whitemane, but all your advice is what I have taken as common sense and already religiously do.  My example of a fight:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bestowal of Vitae and Suplicant's Prayer on the tank before he goes out to pull.  If I cast the others, I'm sinking power for no reason, because the first spells will wear off before the tank gets back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, I would like to point out that these two spells DO NOT stack anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's right.  They did when I first got them, but something has since been changed.  I used to get +98 and +70 per hit when both these spells were up, and things were pretty good.  Now?  Now I get +98 until Bestowal of Vitae depetes, THEN Suplicant Prayer starts working and I get +70.  Now, you can have both on a tank at once, but only one will work, the other one staying in queue until the first depletes.  This is the same for all reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so the tank has these two spells.  He pulls now, and I Weaken, Disgrace, and Rebuke.  I can usually get two off before the mob has times for more than 2 swings, so health on the tank is still usually green, then I cast the third.  All debuffs, ignoring resists, are up on the mob while the tank is still in the green for health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I heal what reactives don't catch.  2/3rds of the total damage.  Considering damage is 300, total health loss to the tank is 200.  My combat healing does about 200 health.  So now I have to cast combat healing EVERY time the mob lands a hit.  Yeah... we know this isn't possible unless we could cast it every 2 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I have to start Combat Heal, Arch Heal, Combat Heal spam.  My arch heal does about +325 health, but it can only be cast every 12 seconds, and as Whitemane said, this is a mana sucker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I have to do it or the tank dies.  Oh yeah, I also have to refresh the two reactives every five seconds on top of this.  It gets ridiculous.  I have to chain cast every fight when I am the only healer.  All encounters are supposed to be approched with a Scout, Fighter, Mage, Priest combo.  Not if you're a Templar.   Then you need two Priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shamen wards at my level seem to have a good +700 damage absorb (as judged by how much damage I absorb when I have one cast on me.  Yes, I pay attention to this)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My reactive takes a 300 damage hit and gives back, we'll simplify, 100 health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman ward = Complete protection from each hit.</DIV> <DIV>Templar reactive = 1/3rd protection from each hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, THAT is ridiculous.   THAT is not equal healing.  That is a gimped Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or how about comparing these two classes over 3 hits from a 300 damage mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman - 900 total damage, 700 absorbed by ward =    -200 total damage.  Easily topped off while ward is replaced for another 700 free damage protection.</DIV> <DIV>Templar - 900 total damage, 300 added by reactive =    -600 total damage.  At least three heals from me, unless I want to wait the 12 seconds it takes to cast Arch Healing twice, in which case the tank is already dead.  Spam time!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A shaman can refresh wards at the same pace I can refresh reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A shaman can keep a tank at 90% health doing this.  My tank would drop in a second if I only cast reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>chrome JP said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Our vitae line of spells stack GREAT with Ward/Regen"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my point.  A Templar NEEDS a second healer in the group to be useful.  Shamen don't and druids don't.  They can effectivly heal alone, and Templars can't.  They can be useful to the group in other ways as well, a Templar can't.  We are a one shot AC/Str debuff without heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And ward and Vitae do not stack.  Vitae does not start working until the ward wears off.  In this case, our spells are support only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid/Templar does rock.  However, we're still dependant on a second healer in the group to be good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is so annoying.  What other class NEEDS help to be effective?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was feeling really good about being a Templar for a long while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until the druid left my group and I realized how worthless I was without him.  What topped it all off was that the druid spent most of his time nuking.  His 25% healing effort was greater than my 100% effort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Embarrassing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AsraiBe]

<DIV>Oops, throw in Amelioration in there for my chain-healing Spam.  It's still a relativly new spell to me.  Nice for spamming.</DIV>

[chrome]

OK. All good points.I give up <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Gonna go make a Druid.At least I can be a cool Bear.

[Gwynet]

<DIV>No no, you are wrong about the two heals getting queued until the first one is depleted. It doesn't work this way, try both, and look at the numbers above the tank's head - only one will work, but they will be depleted at the same time. If they don't, it's just because one was cast a bit after the other and missed one hit or two. So basically stacking both is a waste of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've also noticed that whatever my heal is, the last heal will be 70. Go figure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About disgrace and rebuke - I wouldn't waste power on rebuke, I'm 90% convinced that it's the same thing, both icons appear but they don't stack, and rebuke will do nothing. Same for daring and courage when you cast both. It must be one of the most annoying bug as far as I am concerned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, about Supplican't prayer - again, it seems bugged. An inquisitor posted in my other thread that their upgrade to BoV heals for 25% more than ours - ours is definitely bugged (click <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=3661" target=_blank>here</A> for the thread).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if our heal was working properly, it would probably make things way easier... But I'm convinced that shaman wards are sub par as well. Keep in mind also that they work before mitigation, so that a ward can totally prevent a heal when we only heal 1/3 of it, but it will drop for the next hit while we can still heal 1/3 of the next 1 or 2. I'm almost sure that they have the same stacking issues as we do, and druids have the same problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I personally think that plate armor is a big advantage (it's the reason why I went for templar after all), just for those times when you get wacked. I take damage much better than a druid or shaman for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, about the two healers in group... I disagree. I did really good today in Varsoon as only healer, with an enchanter in group (we were at the bottom of the zone too). I did the same a few days ago and it was fine. If you want my opinion, the problem is that everyone goes for mobs that are too hard, just because they are after uber loot, even if they won't be able to use it for another 3 levels... which is dumb. The best exp is killing blues, definitely not yellows ^^+.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gwynet on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 PM</span>

[chrome]

<blockquote><hr>AsraiBean wrote:Druid/Templar does rock.  However, we're still dependant on a second healer in the group to be good.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That is so annoying.  What other class NEEDS help to be effective?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I was feeling really good about being a Templar for a long while.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Until the druid left my group and I realized how worthless I was without him.  What topped it all off was that the druid spent most of his time nuking.  His 25% healing effort was greater than my 100% effort.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Embarrassing.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Last night, I found a nice group and we played until server down.28 Guardian27 Troubador26 Wiz26 Wiz25 Enchanter25 Templar (me)We were fighting in Varsoons with double up reds and pulling them constantly. I was able to use all my debuffs, my heals were 100% effective in keeping the tank alive - rarely did heve get into the orange/red range, and that was only when I wasn't paying attention (oops, sorry).Battles went something like this:1) BoV + SS on MT just as he starts going to pull. SS if he's out of sight is fine as its group.2) MoP on mob.3) BoV drops after about 10 secons, but this is ok because SS is still protecting MT. Cast another BoV.4) SS will drop soon, so refresh it.5) MT probably doesn't need a heal still, so cast Weakness.6) Something will drop again, and maybe he'll get some big hit. So I do arch healing and chain cast BoV. MT is back up to 100%7) Checking the mobs health shows him in the red. Not long now. Wizards are now nuking in full force.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> BoV and SS both drop about 40 seconds in again. I usually don't bother with a refresh, instead doing a single Arch Healing.9) mob drops. I have 90% power from the breeze & power song.10) Goto step 1, power will regen to 100% nearly by the time the tank pulls.We would do this over and over constantly. Occasionally the mob would break the BoV and SS in one hit and smack the MT down to half health. Arch healing, the MoV, then Combat Healing, then SS, then Arch Healing would fix that.With the right group, a lone Templar can *easily* pull his weight without another healer, at least at level 25. I understand what you're saying here AsraiBean, and unfortunately I am not yet level 30 so I can't pick apart your analysis. But right now, at level 25, my character is not gimped. Maybe the level 26 Vitae is broken? It seems it is from what other people have been posting. If this is the case, it will need to be fixed, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't.Don't let frustration take over and make you delete your character/reroll now. You've come so far in such a short time - stick to it mate! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by chromeJP on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>Yeah, it's easy to heal with an enchanter and bard in group. With a well equipped tank, just an enchanter is fine. The problem is that very often the tank is too low for what groups are killing. After that, you need an enchanter or another healer, and you're fine. Or go kill lower level things, you won't need an enchanter and the exp will be really good - try it.</DIV>

[Voxen]

<DIV>Level 26 Templar here. </DIV> <DIV>I also find that this class is unfair compared to Druids and Shamans who are able to heal as good as I do.</DIV> <DIV>Lately a guildmate I use to group with told me that either a Druid or Shaman is able to keep the group alive as good as I do. And of course they have all the other nice spells I don't have.</DIV> <DIV>I've chosen the heal/debuff and nothing else way, but it kinda frustrates me if I must be the secondary healer of those guys who have a lot of toys to play with.</DIV> <DIV>I really hope this will be looked at and the Templar will become what it should be: the absolute mandatory primary healer of a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chtug]

<DIV>ChromeJP has understood how to do it... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Im doing the same thing, and I can just say that on level 25 im doing very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid/shaman are a perfect 2nd healer for the group, but a well played Templar is the main healer.</DIV>

[Ond]

I'm still new as a templar, so bear with me if I'm totally off.What I see as our biggest advantage is the debuffs, you can't just count BoV and instant heals alone. How much better does the tank hit a Rebuked victim? How much less does the victim hit for with weakness on? Something else I'd recommend when encontering more than one opponent, obivious of course, but cast Weakness and Mark of Pawns on the others, they're hitting the tank too.Another thing, how much less damage does weakness make the opponents do? While the wards will take, say 500, damage, if we over a fight with weakness and maybe MoP will cause 5000 less damage taken, well, that's 10 casts of wards. I still do believe priests are equal, it's not obivious how that is since we don't get numbers from the devs, but my impression is a templar will do the same, you just have to spread out to more than the MT. This is also the reason why we need that big armor, since the MT is focused, (s)he'd have a tendency to not notice us getting agro when casting on other parts of the mob, our large armor then allows us more time to ask (well, actually, demand <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) help.<p>Message Edited by Ondal on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 AM</span>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>Honestly I still have to see the use of Mark of Pawns, seems to me it's wasted time/power when it procs every 5 seconds and only heals 20ish HPs. Of course, I haven't had the luck of getting an app3 or adept 1 spell for it, so maybe it gets better with those. Provided it procs more often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After that, I personally don't think that SS is a good option, I only used it from time to time but with a bard and enchanter in group it was overkill to be honest. That being said, if a templar is annoyed by having to cast BoV etc before the fight, shaman will definitely be way worse <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing though - you're using sigil of weakness, not weakness, right? It's the one spell that makes a whole difference on a healing point of view, while I've always found weakness pretty useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About druids, well I'm still convinced that they overpowered them a bit when they changed regens the last week of beta. To be honest I have only grouped with one until now though, so I can't really compare, I sure didn't have to heal a whole lot when I did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And something to mention about armor - believe me, in beta it was really nice to wear plate until they got rid of heal aggro. Quite frankly, I think that they overdid it though, now even spamming the tank with heals when the mobs are incoming, I can't seem to get aggro at all. I do expect that they will twik it down some eventually, and then you will be glad you have that heavy armor... On a side note, druids get more HPs than we do, so I guess it evens out.</DIV>

[Kyliegi]

<DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>Heres the thoughts from a 29 Templar:<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>We're not secondary healers.  For those of you who are 28+ and are burning 50% + power on one fight - you're doing something wrong.  You need to upgrade your spells - I played the only healer last night in Varsoons with a full group and never went below 80% during battles - and it's a dangerous dungeon.  Maybe your tank just isn't very good - don't blame it on our class!  We are very powerful healers - with an effective tank I was able to heal, debuff, and even nuke once in a while - it was very refreshing!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>I play in a perma group that consists of a Paladin, Wizard, Warlock, Bard, Fury and myself, a Templar.  I don't feel second rate with the Fury - and he's level30.  We work well together to keep the tank alive and can often take yellow-orange groups with no problem.  So please try not to complain about our class until you've been in a good group or have upgraded your spells - we're not so bad!<BR><BR>The one complaint I do have is our ability to take hits.  I'm very concious about aggro (although I never get it) but when I was running through TS with a friend (Bard) I got aggroed on a Blue Centaur ^ - so rather than running we decided to fight it.  I have 1700 AC - yes, 1700 AC.  He has 1400~ish.  I got severely beat down by the centaur while he barely got touched... now this would be realistic if his AC was near mine as he has more dodging and parrying skills... but for 1700 ac I should be able to take hits a little better than that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>All in all - I couldn't be more pleased with my class... my spells at level28 (all three) were a big letdown... and I wish I had more concetration slots... but we are not underpowered.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccccff>Alexius</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccccff>29 Templar, Antonia Bayle</FONT></DIV>

[JF]

<DIV>This thread makes me sad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  However the last post helped a tad.</DIV>

[Curati]

<DIV>"The point of Templars"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the point is we are Devine healers weras Druids And Shaman are only simple witch doctors with crude arcane powers musted from sticks and feathers ..... a Templars' power is given directly from the gods!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we are the white collar priests</DIV>

[Jukk]

I play in same group 99% of all times, we are a very well put together group and everyone knows excatly what to do at all times.Usually this is the setup:TemplarGuardianRangerMysticWizardBardWe usually tackle alot harder mobs then "usual" for our levels.Not a problem.I only have Adept3 of the heal spells (not found master yet) and I certainly know how to use the spells for effective healing. The amount of hp healed by reactives are total crap, and the recast of the direct-heals are simply too long to compensate. Simply waiting for re-cast kills the mt.Healing as a cleric is no problem killing regular yellow, whites and other trash mobs...especially at the sub-20 levels. Reactivs where healing fairly ok. Once the progression to higher levels and alot tougher mobs, the reactive heals are pretty crap compared to Wards. They simply does not get the job done.If, for some reason...the Templar (me) have to logoff, the other guys make some adjustments, have to slow down pulls abit and the shaman will get abit lower on mana, but no real problem.If, for some reason...the Mystic (RL friend) has to logoff, those of us left - have to stop and take on lower level mobs. Me as a templar simply have no way of keeping the mt healed. This is a fact.Wards ruleReactives suckIs my shaman friend SO much more skilled then me? - Hell no.Does he have alot higher scrolls then me? - I have Adept3, he has Apprentice2 (!)Sorry for coming out as a whiner - but I'm really being realistic.I'll stay on as a cleric a couple of levels more...but then I'll delete and start over as a shaman.

[AsraiBe]

<DIV>I like Gwynet, she sees most of the same things I do.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mark of Pawns and Amending Fate... complete garbage.  I had adept 1 Amending Fate when I learned the spell, and decided to play with it.  It seems to work about once every six fights, and even then heals for about 100 health.  Mark of Pawns.  For me (when I melee the mob) I get about one proc every three fights.  I have no idea how much health it adds, because it's tough to compare when you never know when its going off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was never aware that both BoV and SP would wear off at the same time, because I have been casting them at different times.  I have been staggering my casting to make sure at least one is always on the tank at all times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amelioration is roughtly the same power as Combat Healing, which is a good 10 or so levels lower of a spell, both at Adept 1.  Is this a bug too?  I like having a second quick heal, but I am sick of getting spell upgrades that aren't even better than my newbie spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spam heal tanks as they are incoming too.  I never get aggro.  This is either a mistake or EQ2 really is getting watered down in difficulty.  Aggro is the easiest thing in the world to avoid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will also say I didn't start to feel gimped until I hit around level 27.  I owned the heck out of Varsoons with no trouble as well, but I've never been in without a druid or shaman, so I don't know how much they did.  I'd say a 28 tank in that place really helps though.  To a 28, Varsoons is a low level dungeon.  And I think with a chanter/troubadour combo, one could chain cast all day long.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's what I did recently with a 27 Shaman in group in Runnyeye (he's three levels below me):  I asked him to help me test some things out.  Keep in mind that during all these tests, I AC debuffed to end the fights quicker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for Ondal:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rebuke/Disgrace (I don't know if they stack, but I always cast both) rock.  I notice a good 50% decrease in battle time with a good group.  I always have scouts saying in group 'New damage record for me!'.  Always AC debuff single enemies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know how good weaken is, but I've not noticed any difference to the damage taken by the tank when it's used.  I only use it now on named and when I'm at full power and the tank at full health.  Sign of Weakness just takes too long to cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First three - 100% Templar healing.  Shaman did nothing.   The tank was consistantly at around 50% health.  I ended the fight with 20% power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second set - Shaman slowed, Templar 100% healing.  The tank was consistantly around 70% health, going orange a few times, I ended the fight with about 50% power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third set - Shaman takes 100% healing.  The tank was consistantly around 85% health, never once dropping out of the green.  Shaman ended the fight with 70% power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward owns the HECK out of reactives.  We have to spot heal several times while our reactives are up, and then refresh.  A shaman doesn't have to heal once while it is up, and has to do only one spot heal after it wears off to make up for that one hit before ward is refreshed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I felt 100% owned by a shaman 3 levels lower than me, and this feeling is driving me nuts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shamen/Druids are versatile!  Templars are not.  They can do many things, Templars cannot.  To most, class balance would say a Templar should be the best healer because that is their primary focus as a class.</DIV>

[AsraiBe]

<DIV>KylieGirl, I am not really complaining about effectiveness in Varsoons at level 28-30.  Varsoons is trivial by then, the equivilent of farming blues for exp.  Doing well while farming blues an effective class does not make.  But a point besides is that game mechanics dictate a druid or shaman could have healed better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as I said before, I felt great about how powerful I was of a healer in Runnyeye... until the druid left.  The druid was hardly even trying to heal, doing just regen and the rare spot heal, and I was casually sitting back, refreshing reactives, occational spot heal, even playing around at nuking.  We were dominating.  After the druid left, we were crushed by everything.  I had to start spamming my power to nothing during every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's what gets to me.  That two other classes can give half effort and still do better than our full effort.  I usually do get good groups.  I usually fight with the same faces over and over.  The trouble is not bad groups/tanks, its about being less of a healer than the other priest classes.</DIV>

[Gwynet]

<DIV>Going to Runnyeye at 30 is pretty stupid. There are still tons of yellow mobs in Varsoon at that level. I go to Runnyeye when I get a group invite but really I don't see the point, and exp is much slower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway... I agree that druid and shaman heals seem more useful. I'm still hoping that we won't be as gimped in comparison once our heals are fixed.</DIV>

[TROri]

This was something that I rather expected when I read about reactive heals. What it will mean is that the clerical classes are the best healers against low damage swarming mobs and the other classes are better against everything else.For example, a green con pull of 10 mobs the cleric will do just fine (tank is getting hit for 20pts by tons of creatures; reactive is great).I am wondering though if the clerics in the forum are using the group HO's at all? WHEN I can get a group to shut up and quit spamming their personal HO's and let the group have a real HO then either the mobs damage per hit drops by 30% due to a "cripling shroud", my mana regens like i'm out of battle (forgot the name it's so rare) or we get a "divine judgement" damage increase.Do shaman and druids get the same group HO's as clerics?Anyways, I play a cleric because I enjoy the idea behind the class. If I find I can't heal a party without a shaman/druid then I won't create a shaman/druid, I'll just stop playing. Not worth it to play something I don't like just to play.time will tell.

[Whitemane]

<DIV>Hmm must be something on your server as they are stacking on Butcherblock. At least they were this afternoon. Its really easy for me to tell as they dont heal for the same amounts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whitemane 31 Templar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><Children of the Light></DIV>

[Ond]

I tried out weakness as I don't have the replacement yet. Since I really wanted to be safe, I only did it with gray cons in Antonica, wolves, grizzled badgers, young bears and those deer things around the bow range approximately in the middle of the first map part. To me it looked like weakness actually nerfed the attackers damage by 50%, maybe someone who dares to go harder places can confirm? If this opservation is correct, we have one very powerful spell on our hands, if not, well, I'll keep looking for the upsides <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />