ZW Raid DPS, Lets see Parses.

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>Where are you at?  I haven't been able to raid much on my Necromancer, guilds had me on my alt, so all the parses I can bring up are basically Pre-EoF.<BR><BR>I'll try and get in on a few raids though on Malign.<BR><BR>I'd like to see, Deathtoll, Emerald Halls, TCM, Freethinkers, whatever else you guys have been up to.<BR><BR>Only post parses where you weren't slacking, etc, going all out, all the time.<BR><BR>Thanks, in advance.</DIV>

[Omgidomms]

Necromancer raid dps?<BR>I was overall best before, now i'm always overall best :p<BR><BR>And i broke my long dream of over 4k dps with 4360dps on a raid trash mob the other day. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>PS: Yeah this was a trash mob, and no named or so..<p>Message Edited by Omgidomms on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>I was looking for specifics, anyone can say they can be on top, but to show numbers and statistics is what proves it, and thats more so what I'm interested in, also, zone-wide DPS, and a Single Target trash mob is two different things <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Badd Boy]

Any reason why you are not posting your zone wide DPS? I do not know what would benefit the Necro community from posting this. I really don't.<p>Message Edited by Badd Boy on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:04 PM</span>

[Colossaltitan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Where are you at?  I haven't been able to raid much on my Necromancer, guilds had me on my alt, so all the parses I can bring up are basically Pre-EoF.<BR><BR>I'll try and get in on a few raids though on Malign.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Again, I'm just curious to see what everyone is at, to compare it against myself when I am once again raiding on Malign and, what everyone else is parsing in comparison to other classes out there.<BR><BR>If I was raiding on my Necromancer, I would gladly be showing my parses.

[Danter]

<DIV>Emerald Halls, we got up to the gardener on 2nd floor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage -> EXT DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allies: (01:32:24) | 102200096 | 18434.36 | [Wizard-Fusion-30359]<BR>Dants -> 9668533 -> 1743.96<BR>Ranger -> 8987225 -> 1621.07<BR>Wizard -> 7589611 -> 1368.98</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>CWM - Cleared</P> <P>Allies: (08:03) | 7410332 | 15342.30 | [Wizard-Ice Nova-24204]<BR>Dants -> 814837 -> 1687.03<BR>Necro -> 785526 -> 1626.35<BR>Ranger -> 558249 -> 1155.80</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Freethinkers - Cleared</P> <P>Allies: (33:53) | 31858180 | 15670.53 | [Wizard-Ball of Lava-51306]<BR>Dants -> 3215030 -> 1581.42<BR>Wizard -> 2674070 -> 1315.33<BR>Ranger -> 2659522 -> 1308.18</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I did ~1500 last DT run but I wasn't really trying so I'm not gonna put that one up.</P> <P>Stop giving Malignx crap about this thread, it pertains to our class considering we <STRONG>ARE</STRONG> a DPS class.</P> <P> </P> <P>Dants, 70 necro of Impulse on Mistmoore</P>

[quamdar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Badd Boy wrote:Any reason why you are not posting your zone wide DPS? I do not know what would benefit the Necro community from posting this. I really don't.<p>Message Edited by Badd Boy on <span class="date_text">12-15-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:04 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>it would benefit people because then they could compare DPS with each other since we are a DPS  class.  i will try to remember to run a parser sunday when we raid since i don't have any parses post-EoF atm, normally just look at what others post in game.</div>

[Omgidomms]

<DIV>Is't it better to discuss our group setup in raids, and that kind of stuff?<BR>I guess most raiding necro's got a troub in their group, but what other classes?</DIV>

[quamdar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Omgidomms wrote:<div>Is't it better to discuss our group setup in raids, and that kind of stuff?I guess most raiding necro's got a troub in their group, but what other classes?</div><hr></blockquote>there are other threads that group set up is discussed in.  why do people not want a thread to talk about what kind of DPS we are doing?</div>

[Omgidomms]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quamdar wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Omgidomms wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is't it better to discuss our group setup in raids, and that kind of stuff?<BR>I guess most raiding necro's got a troub in their group, but what other classes?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>there are other threads that group set up is discussed in.  why do people not want a thread to talk about what kind of DPS we are doing?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, are't dps affected mostly by the group setup and what classes that buff you?<BR>I suggest that people post their main buffs from group setup, special "tricks" they use, and how many aa's etc, when they post parses...

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>quamdar wrote:there are other threads that group set up is discussed in.  why do people not want a thread to talk about what kind of DPS we are doing?<hr></blockquote>Because inevitably other classes link to such things in discussions about how they claim their own classes are gimped compared to our DPS, thus trying to influence yet ANOTHER nerf on us.Clear?

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>Necromancers need to be babysat probably more than any other class(ie Blood Pact & Lifeburn), but, not buff wise.<BR><BR>The most buffs we need to raid efficiently come from a Troubador, and Fury, Illusionist can give the best thing out of group.<BR><BR><BR>I don't see why everyone is so caught up in wondering if there is some secret motive, Lol.</DIV>

[Sic Boy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:<div>Necromancers need to be babysat probably more than any other class(ie Blood Pact & Lifeburn), but, not buff wise.The most buffs we need to raid efficiently come from a Troubador, and Fury, Illusionist can give the best thing out of group.I don't see why everyone is so caught up in wondering if there is some secret motive, Lol.</div><hr></blockquote>shhhh, they're listening....Seriously though, I think it's a good idea. I like to see where I am compared to some of the other raid Necros out there. I'll make sure I keep ACT up this week and put up my parses from all the usuals at the end of the week. With that said though we do seem to have come out of EoF better off then some of the other dps classes, not counting god abilities.<img src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature?characterId=336016120"></div>

[Geoff]

<DIV>whats everyone set the combat cutoff on ACT at for the parse, 2 secs? 4 secs?</DIV>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Omgidomms wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is't it better to discuss our group setup in raids, and that kind of stuff?<BR>I guess most raiding necro's got a troub in their group, but what other classes?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Raid/group set up is everything when it comes to DPS, and how you compare.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Necromancers need to be babysat probably more than any other class(ie Blood Pact & Lifeburn), but, not buff wise.<BR><BR>The most buffs we need to raid efficiently come from a Troubador, and Fury, Illusionist can give the best thing out of group.<BR><BR><BR>I don't see why everyone is so caught up in wondering if there is some secret motive, Lol.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think Eriol had it right.  I consider it like fight club...I just don't talk about what I do in game anymore on forums.</P> <P>It leads to bad things.</P>

[Badd Boy]

I am just scared to death of the nerf bat. Heh, I was not trying to suggest you have alterior motives. I am wondering as much as anyone.. I just hate to see the other classes copy/paste and say we need to be nerfed instead of them learning to play there class.

[KittenClaw]

<div></div><div></div><font color="#cc0000">Freethinkers Hideout -- 12/13 ZONEWIDE (Wipes excluded)</font>Allies (2735) 29509828  17830.71 [Dalimar-Manaburn-63330]Raygo 2955154  1785.59  <---- Conjuror (my hubby, so it's sort of okay if he beats me...)Isodora 2875632  1737.54 <---- NecromancerAllowen 2754084  1664.10 <---- NecromancerNataliaa 2449125  1479.83 <---- BrigandDalimar 2142252  1294.41 <---- WizardRaiuub 2070342  1250.96 <---- Swashie<div></div><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">Othysis Muravian - Freethinkers Hideout -- 12/13</font>Allies (03:0<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 3343848  17786.43 [Dalimar-Manaburn-50940]Isodora 511904  2722.89  <---- NecromancerNataliaa 411159  2187.02 <---- BrigandRaygo 402222  2139.48 <---- ConjurorAllowen 337097  1793.07 <---- NecromancerRaiuub 285166  1516.84 <---- SwashieDalimar 202092  1074.96 <---- WizardAbomidable 159606  848.97 <---- Guardian<font color="#cc0000">V'Tekla K'Zalk - Mistmoore Inner Sanctum -- 12/14</font>Allies: (01:40) 1424715 | 14247.15 [Dalimar-Manaburn-53370]Isodora 213525 | 2135.25 <---- NecromancerAllowen 195986 | 1959.86 <---- NecromancerRaygo 131589 | 1315.89 <---- ConjurorNataliaa 128372 | 1283.72 <---- BrigandSlackin 125051 | 1250.51 <---- AssassinAgigox 122302 | 1223.02 <---- ConjurorDalimar 113737 | 1137.37 <---- WizardArchanis 103321 | 1033.21 <---- Ranger<font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">D'Lizta Viswin -- Mistmoore Inner Sanctum - 12/14</font>Allies: (04:07) 3957938 | 16024.04 [Dalimar-Manaburn-72150]Isodora 542533 | 2196.49 <---- NecromancerRaygo 386564 | 1565.04 <---- ConjurorNataliaa 365545 | 1479.94 <---- BrigandAllowen 334029 | 1352.34 <---- NecromancerPowownes 314505 | 1273.30 <---- AssassinNairb 283461 | 1147.62 <---- BruiserI think I'll stop here, I could go on, but it seems like a waste of time, you get the idea.<span></span><p>Message Edited by KittenClaw22 on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[KittenClaw]

I don't think most people understand how hard a necro has to work to be top dps. With our limited amount of spells it requires constant casting, there is no pause. You use your hot keys and you are never done casting or you don't top the parse. You can't pause to look at the television and see what wacky antics Cartman just got up to on South Park or you will drop on the parse.You can't wait until the end and manaburn and still parse high like a wizard does.For me, in a group with a troub, I use my mage pet to maximize my DPS... This means constant monitoring of the pet to make sure it doesn't run in like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and try to hit the monster with it's Tarinax's Spine. I hate to sound cheesy but it requires constant vigilance. Most necros world wide don't want to have to think so much about what their pet is doing, so they use the scout pet.<div></div>

[Dextera]

<DIV>I'll troll this one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone has to be on top of things to top the parse. No class can sit and watch TV and top the parse, it doesn't happen, so a Necro or an Assassin or a Swashy aren't working harder than each other. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yea, and Wizzies can just throw Manaburn at the end of a fight and top parse, give me a break.  /sarcasm off</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I think Eriol had it right.  I consider it like fight club...I just don't talk about what I do in game anymore on forums.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It leads to bad things.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>this attitude isn't really neccessary, I've had the wizard parse thread open for months with 10 pages of parse postings, not one person has attempted to use the thread as a *nerf the wizzies* post, in fact lots of good can come out of it, showing buffs on a toon for the zone parsings, group set ups, it also shows historical data, such as how a class is doing through all the changes.</P> <P>I think parse threads should be on all the class forums, because then when people want to see how they can do or compare against other players, they can see if they're on par or if they need improving.<BR></P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I think Eriol had it right.  I consider it like fight club...I just don't talk about what I do in game anymore on forums.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It leads to bad things.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>this attitude isn't really neccessary, I've had the wizard parse thread open for months with 10 pages of parse postings, not one person has attempted to use the thread as a *nerf the wizzies* post, in fact lots of good can come out of it, showing buffs on a toon for the zone parsings, group set ups, it also shows historical data, such as how a class is doing through all the changes.</P> <P>I think parse threads should be on all the class forums, because then when people want to see how they can do or compare against other players, they can see if they're on par or if they need improving.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes but w/o getting back into the DPS tier discussions, wizards are supposed to the mythical T1 while necros are not.  So when people see necros doing X dmg and some other class not, you get back to the nerf necro posts, and we have had enough nerfs to our spell lines and pets due to just such discussions.</P> <P>I just don't talk about it anymore.<BR></P>

[Fews]

<DIV>Actually,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   There is a certain validity to the argument of not going public if your class is overperforming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am honest, I know the top DPS that a well played necro is, and no I don't think it is properly balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That aside, since that is a DEV issue...</DIV> <DIV>Every class should have a parse thread because it does make those who read it examine their DPS and if it seems</DIV> <DIV>to fall short they have a place to pose questions and seek advice from others in class that are doing more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a Necro alt, and as one necro whispered to me is that top DPS depended especially on one set of abilities.(something I didn't explore since I still play my wizard 95% of the time)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I have seen all Necros do that are high in the parse is to use their Mage pet not the scout pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also looking at realtime parses they often seem to jump up a few hundred DPS at the end of a fight, not sure if that is some Necro</DIV> <DIV>sacrifice pet thing or not.(Can you tell I really don't play my necro.lol)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro's have to joust their pet which is more onerous than a scout having to joust, so it is one skill set they have to learn that sorcerers don't. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But class parsing thread will improve overall class DPS which is good as long as you don't get hit by the nerf bat when SOE see overall Necro DPS go up.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[MickeysIce]

<FONT size=2>Yes necros who want to be top dps have to work hard, but as stated above, all classes do, to my knowledge there isnt a class in the game that has an autopilot button or a "I wanna watch South Park" mode, all classes have to work all aspects and fine tune their approach to the situation at hand.  Now the part about why other necros use the scout pet that Isodora said is kinda buggin me too and I dont want you to take this the wrong way Iso, so please dont.  You kinda seem to come off with a holier than thou or if you dont do it my way its because you are lazy or stupid and that is far from the truth.  I use the mage pet when their are groups, or an aoe requiring jousting techniques, however when there is negligible aoe and/or a single target mob, I like to use my scout pet simple as that, its not a matter of I dont want to be bothered with jousting so I use my scout pet.  Also I have found that when using lifeburn after that first lifetap, slap consumption on your scout pet and its a bit better than the mage pet as far as health return.  Of course its all for naught if the healers arent keeping you up so the real credit goes to them.  So once again I just wanted to make the point that although you are a knowledgeble, skilled player there are others who may use methods different from your own and still achieve impressive numbers.  This wasnt intended to be a flame, just a defense of anybody who decides to ever bring out their scout pet for a raid mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT>

[Fews]

<P>On a slight tangent, as a person who mostly is looking at the class from the outside(I don't play my necro enough yet to conside being in the inside).</P> <P>I think lifeburn is awesome for you. Not because it even makes necro DPS higher(I have my own problem with that.lol)</P> <P>But conceptually it is a spell with desirable DPS for necro that makes them depend on another class to save them from what is otherwise death.</P> <P>Kinda like the person who falls backward trusting the person standing behind them to catch them. Adds tension and pleasure when it works out.</P> <P>Lifeburn is a fun spell even from watching it on the outside.</P> <P>Back to Necro parsing...,</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[MickeysIce]

I totally agree with ya there, I dont really care how they balance the classes as long as they are balanced in a way that makes them all challenging/fun to play, I like knowing that I have on the ball healers that have my back when I lifeburn.  Trust me my first main was a warlock and Im not even going to get into that but it is good to see that they are at least making some steps in the right direction for the sorceror class, from what I have heard from other raiding sorcerors anyway.  Another point, there will be times when necro dps drops off a bit and this is not necessarily because they are slacking, the whole mission is taking down the mob and if that means I have to spot heal, rezz another crucial member of the team so be it, Im not gonna be crying at the end if Im not #1 on the parse as long as we didnt wipe so I think the interplay and required coordination between the classes is what makes an encounter challenging and worth spending time on, although I do get a little happy in the pants when I parse high too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sarkoris]

<DIV> <P>/Wave Malign - Najena represent.</P> <P>The key things I think that help to top dps parsers are: group makeup, quality of pets and ca's (master over ad3 over ad1 etc), aa's (you have to love lifeburn), gear (proc gear, high int etc) and most importantly knowledge of your class.</P> <P>I will get some zone wide raid parsers from this weeks raids (cleared logs at the weekend). I don't parse as high as some of those that have posted, usually around 2k on named and 1.2-1.4k zonewide depending on how heavy the AOE action is (/shudder HOS). Sadly the only master pet I have is the tank pet, and I have been slacking off on AA's (59 total).</P> <P>Lets get down to specifics. What AA's paths have you taken. Be specific as in Int 4-4-4-8 etc - not just int line. Which EOF AA's have you taken or intend to take and why. What gear do you use to increase your DPS. What pets do you use (always mage regardless of aoe, scout on occassion etc) and what quality are they. What is the quality of yoru archlich (to help work out proc damage).</P> <P>What is your cast cycle. Do you debuff to help the raid out or consider that someone else's job and purely cast offensive spells. Do you only cast duisease based spells for the lich proc ? What range do you stand from mobs, up close and personal to fire off a life tap aoe occassionally and so your backed off mage pet doesnt have to return so far, or max range and ping away with your dots. Does your cast cyxcle differ from trash mobs to named ? Do you only stay on the MA target or tab over to put your swarm pets on another mob ?</P> <P>I'll start and add more detail once I can logon and verify a few things. </P> <P>KOS - AA's. Not sure and eq2 players is borked atm. Pretty sure its str and int line. Exact numbers not really sure.</P> <P>EOF - 20 in rotting - 1 in final ability (lifeburn). 3 points in grave calling line (mage ability).</P> <P>Proc Gear: Grizzle's walking stick, godking staff and collection earring (name escapes me).</P> <P>Casting order - long dot, short dot, lifetap, possibly darkness or debuff for the lich proc, swarm and aoe pet timed depending on aoe - early if no aoe, post aoe to maximise life expectancy otherwise. aoe dot and aoe lifetap if many targets and no risk of aoe, or continue standard cycle, undead tide and lifeburn thrown in on named.</P> <P>Sark.</P></DIV>

[Dextera]

<DIV>Hrm... ~2k parse, with A3 pet, and 59AAs... makes me wonder how much higher one can parse...</DIV>

[Imperishab]

<P>All this talk about parsing really makes me laugh :smileyvery-happy:.  Many eq2 players ask which class is the best dps ect...  One thing that isn't brought up is the player makes the toon the toon doesn't make the player.  Everyone knows a well played toon can out dps a totally geared up noobster that just doesn't perform well.  Everyone has seen it where they may be top of the dps list and the same class with about the same gear may be 500-1k less dps zone wide.  This is the key to anyone trying to parse tops.  If you cant play it shows.  I do believe as a decent raiding necro with eof being released you should be shooting for on average 1,500-2,100 dps zone wide.  Anything extra and you have played the zone perfect.  Im not saying many don't do higher then that, but if you really are looking for a number per zone day in and day out that's about right.</P> <P> </P> <P>Imperishable-70 necro/92 aa/70 carp./103 tinker</P> <P>Heka-70 guard/59 aa/70 prov/289 transmuter</P> <P>Nakazato-70 bruis/50 aa</P>

[Fews]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Imperishable wrote:<BR> <P>All this talk about parsing really makes me laugh :smileyvery-happy:.  Many eq2 players ask which class is the best dps ect...  One thing that isn't brought up is the player makes the toon the toon doesn't make the player. Imperishable-70 necro/92 aa/70 carp./103 tinker</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Having parses or knowing what people in your class do against specific mobs and or zones can help. I wouldn't laugh at it. When you say the player makes the toon...it depends on what you mean by that.</P> <P>Let's break that thought down.(with a DPS centric view)</P> <P>    Does the player go AFK during the fight, is drunk, watches TV more than the fight..then yeah they will suck.</P> <P>    Have they figured out the min/max AAs for their playstyles and people they group with? No? Then sure they will lose DPS</P> <P>   Have they figured out the best casting sequence, and know what zones/mobs will AOE their pet?</P> <P>   Can they keep their pet alive and doing DPS?</P> <P>    Do they know when and where to do all of the utility aspects of their toon?</P> <P>Now here are the toon/raid aspects outside of player skill:</P> <P>    Is the raid setup ideal for the class, have the supporting classes slacked and not provided the support for your DPS?</P> <P>    Key spells mastered? (Adds 10-15% to DPS)</P> <P>   How good is the gear (To me the least important, it's nice, but not the decisive factor)<BR></P> <P>So on what would be called skill, all that means is they are intentive while playing, learns what AA and casting sequence max DPS, and control their pet, and if people post the ideal cast sequences and AA setups then they don't even have to learn that. So yes posting information in the forums can decrease the amount of skill needed to do well. It leaves the skill factor way down on the list, and isn't just something to be laughed at. </P> <P>They just need to not be drunk and to have read the forums IF the forums spill the beans on AA setups and casting sequence. The only finessse left is making sure pet lives and that it nukes, and mix in the utility aspects. So the knowledge part of the "player skill" can be trivilized by people in forums helping give them that knowledge. Parses do help on that, as well as people laying out raid setups, their AA setups, etc.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Fewson on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span>

[Colossaltitan]

Its too tough to judge which class is truely 'best' for DPS. As people have said, you don't know what exactly everyone is doing, whenever I am raiding I'm there 100% I play to raid, hell, I live to raid, so when its raid time that is all I'm doing. You'll never find a parse with me slacking.<BR><BR>Point being, not everyone plays like that, not everyone is geared/spelled/playing ability all equal. For all we know, Rangers could be the top DPS, but all of them have just sucked!<BR><BR>Onto Malign...<BR>Malign is Fully Mastered (short of Dooming Darkness & Swarm of Bats as they don't exsist on PVE or in the game at all).<BR><BR>KOS AA's: INT:8/4/4/8, STR:4/4/4/8. STA:5.<BR>I believe thats currently the best setup, Empower Servant and Implode are all but useless, as are the limits on the other starters (Shockwave, Animist's Transference, Distracting Strike).<BR><BR>EOF AA's:<BR>Rotting: 21 Points<BR>Pacts: 3/5/3/4(Rez)/5(Consumption)/1Blood Pact.<BR>Gravecalling: 5Mage/3Grave<BR><BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=369579102" target=_blank>Malign's Gear</A> is basically almost wearing every piece of proc gear there is (my BP is relic although I run around with Netherworld cuz its sexah).<BR>Theres very little room for improvement as far as KoS/FD goes.  I'd take Matron Boots, Clockwork Menace Forearms, Breath of the Destroyer, Matron Wrist.<BR><BR>My casting order most definetly varies completly on the encounter, whether it AOE's or not, multi-mob encounter, single target, one thats needing debuffs, one that doesn't. 90% of the time, I'm purely offensive, and the only debuff I'll use will be Loathsome Mark, I don't use Drawing of Souls often because a) mob attribute debuffs cap very easily, and b) its not necessary even if they weren't capped.<BR><BR>Very rarely am I actually 'assisting' the main assist, too, most of the time in my targeting cycle (on encounter mobs) you'll notice that I'm on this mob, then that mob, then that mob, cyclying dots on each one, in between (depending on health) sending Swarms to either MA's target, or the true epic in an encounter, whatever is best for the time, also, I'll be nuking the MA's target w/ Dooming Darkness, Death Rot(yes, I use it over Word of Force, so should you!), Abate Life(m2 choice).<BR><BR>Generally when raiding on Malignx, my usual group is, Troubador (Playing AoA, sadly doesn't hit PoM often), Wizard (Sadly doesn't hit Frigid Gift often), Fury, Brigand, Ranger.<BR><BR>Kinda a bleh group overall, it took me ages to convince our Troubador to use AoA because it was claimed to be "nerfed" well, oh well, Lol. Now if I could just get him to consider using PoM uh, every time its up. =p<BR><BR>I haven't had to worry about it lately, as I've said guilds had me on my Warden.<BR><BR>I still haven't been able to raid once really since EOF on Malign, when I get to, parses inc, =/.<p>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:51 PM</span>

[Geoff]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Everglow wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hrm... ~2k parse, with A3 pet, and 59AAs... makes me wonder how much higher one can parse...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wouldn't get too impressed with parse numbers until you know what the parser is set at.   I can "double" my dps by changing settings as to when combat ends as far as the parse considers.

[Fews]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geoff77 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Everglow wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hrm... ~2k parse, with A3 pet, and 59AAs... makes me wonder how much higher one can parse...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I wouldn't get too impressed with parse numbers until you know what the parser is set at.   I can "double" my dps by changing settings as to when combat ends as far as the parse considers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>True. But if people parsing provide damage and dps, then one can see the validaity of the DPS. Pet pulling changes length of encounters and lower extended DPS, but not DPS. I usually use in act {NAME3}  {DAMAGE} | {DPS}    and I sort by DAMAGE not DPS.</P> <P>Zonewide DPS is a different issue and older versions of ACt had major problems in calculating it.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Colossaltitan]

The appropriate way of calculating DPS is sort by EXT DPS, and saying "I can do blah blah blah" thats great, I can parse 9k on Pantrilla, but I'm speaking of Zone-Wide parses, if we go off single target, we could say, well, this pull I had a full undead-tide and LIfeburn, (15 minutes goes by) and this pull I had a ....<BR><BR>Get my point here? :p

[Dextera]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> The appropriate way of calculating DPS is sort by EXT DPS, and saying "I can do blah blah blah" thats great, I can parse 9k on Pantrilla, but I'm speaking of Zone-Wide parses, if we go off single target, we could say, well, this pull I had a full undead-tide and LIfeburn, (15 minutes goes by) and this pull I had a ....<BR><BR>Get my point here? :p<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Both zone-wide parsing and single-fight parses are used as judges for DPS. If a class was able to parse 9k on one fight every 15 minutes, but only 1.5k zone-wide, would you still consider that class to be balanced?

[Colossaltitan]

Ask yourself, what guild pulls a mob, kills it, afk's for 15 minutes, then comes back?I can parse 10k easy I'm sure every 1hr with God Abilities and my 15/5min spells.See my point?Zone Wide on the normal raid, wipes, pulls, trash, everything included is the only thing that is what we should really go off of.

[Dextera]

<P>You misread my post entirely, but you raise another interesting point.</P> <P>Let me see you parse 10k on a single named fight in KoS or EoF. I think it'd be fun to see.</P>

[Pro]

    Let me raise another "interesting" point. Why would we care about a wizard demanding stuff in the necro board when all he obviously does is trying to give an attitude.<div></div>

[Dextera]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pro wrote:<BR>    Let me raise another "interesting" point. Why would we care about a wizard demanding stuff in the necro board when all he obviously does is trying to give an attitude.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There's no attitude at all. I legitly want to see proff is all. :smileyvery-happy:

[Colossaltitan]

Thats Proof*<BR><BR>And, any Necromancer who knows how to maximize undead tide (which is tough to do on some raids) but the raids that you can, lifeburn, full udt(out for a full minute) hit Ro's Fury while your at it, and if you really wanna get fancy, use Incinerate.<BR><BR>Hell, before EOF with just a full UDT on a 3 or so minute fight, Malign would be at a solid 3.5k dps, add in the other stuff, and you'll easily be up there.

[Bamfa_dexter]

Jello or Pudding?  or just Jello-Pudding?  <IMG src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Chocolate_pudding.jpg/200px-Chocolate_pudding.jpg"><p>Message Edited by Bamfa_dexter on <span class=date_text>12-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 PM</span>

[Mastire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KittenClaw22 wrote:<BR>I don't think most people understand how hard a necro has to work to be top dps. With our limited amount of spells it requires constant casting, there is no pause. You use your hot keys and you are never done casting or you don't top the parse. You can't pause to look at the television and see what wacky antics Cartman just got up to on South Park or you will drop on the parse.<BR><BR>You can't wait until the end and manaburn and still parse high like a wizard does.<BR><BR>For me, in a group with a troub, I use my mage pet to maximize my DPS... This means constant monitoring of the pet to make sure it doesn't run in like a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and try to hit the monster with it's Tarinax's Spine. I hate to sound cheesy but it requires constant vigilance.<BR><BR>Most necros world wide don't want to have to think so much about what their pet is doing, so they use the scout pet.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am a warlock, 95% of warlocks think parces I post are fake. 5% know how to play the class. Where necro's 75% do great DPS. As a warlock I have to not stop cast as well as be perfect with my timings to break 1.4k single target DPS. And my DPS is highly dependent on groups. Necro's on the other hand are alot less dependent on groups and offer Above average utility.</P> <P>So don't brag about your DPS or your lifeburn nerf will occur sooner then you want. And when it does get nerfed don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and complain you know its coming.</P>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>Lol, I'll bite, I guess.<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mastire wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Where necro's 75% do great DPS. As a warlock I have to not stop cast as well as be perfect with my timings to break 1.4k single target DPS. <FONT color=#ff0000>So, what do you think of the other 25% of Necros?  You think 100% of the great Necros just send in their pet and win parses? No.  Its called perfect timing of your skills, perfect casting order, perfect pet jousting, your not the only one who has to work for your DPS.</FONT> And my DPS is highly dependent on groups. <FONT color=#ff0000>Ahah, and the Necro's isn't? Umm, leave me without a Troub, a highly capable healer when the time comes, and see what happens.  </FONT>Necro's on the other hand are alot less dependent on groups and offer Above average utility.  <FONT color=#ff0000>If you say so, since your knowledge thus far in this post has proven to us that you know everything there is to know about Necromancers.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So don't brag about your DPS or your lifeburn nerf will occur sooner then you want. And when it does get nerfed don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and complain you know its coming.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Right, I spoke about Lifeburn being nerfed while I was in beta, because it needs to be, our class is already quite powerful.  On top of that, scroll back up through the thread, I see no one really 'bragging' aside from you and your claims of being an amazing Warlock.</FONT></P> <HR> <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[pharacyde]

<DIV>Imo, lifeburn wont get nerfed at all, same as manaburn. The simple reason is that some mobs have been designed for those spells to be used. </DIV>

[Catini]

<P>Just my 2cents..  Ive used Lifeburn now and the Ooze pet.  I have to say, that while</P> <P>lifeburn is nice, its not all everyone makes it out to be.  The necro ends up with 1hp</P> <P>regardless of the # of heals (even if your getting healed during the 10secs it runs, the</P> <P>spell just keeps going until the 10secs are up, the mobs dead, or the necro is at 1hp.)</P> <P>The damage the spell does is split out over 1sec ticks.  I didnt bother to figure out the</P> <P>math of it, but it appeared to be something close to 1/5th max health * 5 every second.</P> <P>(*note* that means without a heal, the spell lasts at most 5seconds.)</P> <P> </P> <P>Ive also heard some say, well a necro has FD and others dont.  They make FD tinkering </P> <P>items now, so FD is not the exclusive province of necro's anymore.  Ive seen a fair # of </P> <P>healers carrying them, just so they can rez after a wipe.</P> <P> </P> <P>As to necro dps vs others, Im really sick to death of people complaining about their class</P> <P>not being equal to others.  The classes, by default will never be equal.  The only thing people</P> <P>should be concerned with is doing the best within their own class.  ie. necro vs necro.  If your</P> <P>a necro and another necro is out dps'ng you on parses, then fix yourself.  If your a necro and</P> <P>a wizzy is out dpsing you, then delete you necro and be a wizzy.    Don't whine about it, and</P> <P>yes complaining about another class being better is nothing more than whining.   SOE will</P> <P>never make them equal, if you don't like it, either leave the game or go play the other class.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nainitsuj]

<P>Wow.. you wizards suck.  I retired my necro and made a troub to help the wizard in our guild.  The necro (who also sits in my group) rarely beats him at 2200 dps (average)  Master damage spells, master assassin pet/pet buffs and life burn. (Wizard is at 2400 dps average, no manaburn).</P> <P> </P> <P>Hehe.  Sometimes I turn off my hate reducer when he uses lifeburn.  Brings a smile to my face.</P>

[Mastire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Lol, I'll bite, I guess.<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mastire wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Where necro's 75% do great DPS. As a warlock I have to not stop cast as well as be perfect with my timings to break 1.4k single target DPS. <FONT color=#ff0000>So, what do you think of the other 25% of Necros?  You think 100% of the great Necros just send in their pet and win parses? No.  Its called perfect timing of your skills, perfect casting order, perfect pet jousting, your not the only one who has to work for your DPS. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Perfect timing is required by all class's, its either most necro's have this timing or its not that hard.</FONT> And my DPS is highly dependent on groups. <FONT color=#ff0000>Ahah, and the Necro's isn't? Umm, leave me without a Troub, a highly capable healer when the time comes, and see what happens. <FONT color=#ffff00>A necro's DPS isn't as dependtent on groups as you are saying.  A necro in a melee group >> wizard in a melee group. </FONT> </FONT>Necro's on the other hand are alot less dependent on groups and offer Above average utility.  <FONT color=#ff0000>If you say so, since your knowledge thus far in this post has proven to us that you know everything there is to know about Necromancers. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Shards >> then our power transfer, FD for when raid wipes, battle rez's, pet pulling. Yes you have alot of utitilty. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So don't brag about your DPS or your lifeburn nerf will occur sooner then you want. And when it does get nerfed don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and complain you know its coming.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Right, I spoke about Lifeburn being nerfed while I was in beta, because it needs to be, our class is already quite powerful.  On top of that, scroll back up through the thread, I see no one really 'bragging' aside from you and your claims of being an amazing Warlock. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>For a suposed t2 class havinga zonewide parce that is higher then rangers, and a lackluster wizard is bragging. Rangers/assasins/wizzard's and warlocks when played right SHOULD be better then a necro played right for the fact of NO UTILITY!  </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For saying lifeburn is the same as manaburn is crap. Without mana a wizzard is 0 DPS.  You can heal life you can't heal mana.</P> <P>Basicaly what you just told me is you play your class perfectly and deserve to be top DPS because of it. So either you are telign me your guilds T1 DPS class's are unskilled. And your the best player in it. Or your class is broken and should be knocked down to where it was before lifeburn.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sosum]

<blockquote><hr>Mastire wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Colossaltitan wrote: <div></div> <div>Lol, I'll bite, I guess. <blockquote> <hr> Mastire wrote: <div></div> <blockquote>Where necro's 75% do great DPS. As a warlock I have to not stop cast as well as be perfect with my timings to break 1.4k single target DPS. <font color="#ff0000">So, what do you think of the other 25% of Necros?  You think 100% of the great Necros just send in their pet and win parses? No.  Its called perfect timing of your skills, perfect casting order, perfect pet jousting, your not the only one who has to work for your DPS. </font><font color="#ffff00">Perfect timing is required by all class's, its either most necro's have this timing or its not that hard.</font> And my DPS is highly dependent on groups. <font color="#ff0000">Ahah, and the Necro's isn't? Umm, leave me without a Troub, a highly capable healer when the time comes, and see what happens. <font color="#ffff00">A necro's DPS isn't as dependtent on groups as you are saying.  A necro in a melee group >> wizard in a melee group. </font> </font>Necro's on the other hand are alot less dependent on groups and offer Above average utility.  <font color="#ff0000">If you say so, since your knowledge thus far in this post has proven to us that you know everything there is to know about Necromancers. </font><font color="#ffff00">Shards >> then our power transfer, FD for when raid wipes, battle rez's, pet pulling. Yes you have alot of utitilty. </font></blockquote> <p>So don't brag about your DPS or your lifeburn nerf will occur sooner then you want. And when it does get nerfed don't [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and complain you know its coming.  <font color="#ff0000">Right, I spoke about Lifeburn being nerfed while I was in beta, because it needs to be, our class is already quite powerful.  On top of that, scroll back up through the thread, I see no one really 'bragging' aside from you and your claims of being an amazing Warlock. </font><font color="#ffff00">For a suposed t2 class havinga zonewide parce that is higher then rangers, and a lackluster wizard is bragging. Rangers/assasins/wizzard's and warlocks when played right SHOULD be better then a necro played right for the fact of NO UTILITY!  </font></p> <hr> </blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>For saying lifeburn is the same as manaburn is crap. Without mana a wizzard is 0 DPS.  You can heal life you can't heal mana.</p> <p>Basicaly what you just told me is you play your class perfectly and deserve to be top DPS because of it. So either you are telign me your guilds T1 DPS class's are unskilled. And your the best player in it. Or your class is broken and should be knocked down to where it was before lifeburn.</p> <hr></blockquote>Then go yell at SOE to fix your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class instead of perpetuating the problem by trying to justify the nerfing of another class you have no interest in playing. <div></div>

[Triste-Lune]

wizzy this wizzy that waaah waaah.As for you cant heal mana : dracomancer, glove honor of pantrilla, shard, heart, manastone and you are back to over 30% mana and ready to keep on casting. not to mention x'haviz gown of glory that proc mana regen + your regular FT gear and the various procing mana stuff around.i m tired of seeing people that barely know how to play their class complain that other class are doing better than them.On my berserker i get called for doing too much DPS for my tanking abilities, on my necro i m doing too much DPS for such an easy to play class.

[Jasuo]

So it's pretty much agreed then that all you wizards and warlocks complaining in our forum area need to go out and learn how to appropriately gear up and play your class before you actually can cry about ours.  And from what I've seen the number of actual good necros is more like 18% at most.The countless idjits I see that complain about not winning some FT or regen item when an easily obtainable proc item would far outwiegh that 1 or 2.  Or the ones who still use the prismatic wand at lvl 70.  Or who think any other robe other than relic or xhaviz gown of glory (sp?) is a better choice <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[Colossaltitan]

I'm saying any T1/T2 Class if played properly are situationally T1 DPS.As for you thinking Lifeburn makes or breaks the Necromancer, hell, take it away from me, I don't need it to beat you, a cocky warlock who spends more time complaining then he does learning how to better himself.As for the way Lifeburn works.Lifeburn stays on you like a maintained spell until the 10second duration is up, after the 10seconds is up, the recast timer on the spell starts. It consumes 10% health for 10seconds, if you run out of health, it will wait until you have more than 1hp, and start consuming again. It deals 5points of damage for every health point it consumes, so if your @ 9% health and can only go down to 1hp it will consume every point in between, leaving you with one, and dealing 5x Disease points of damage per every HP consumed. Not too hard, is it? :p.

[Krakopince]

<DIV>I'd just like to add a little correction on ow LB works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> you made a little mistake <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Lifeburn can be limited by four things : </DIV> <DIV>      1 : Can't do more than 60% of target max HP</DIV> <DIV>      2 : Can't do anymore damage if you're at about 1HP left</DIV> <DIV>      3 : Can't consume more than <U>20% (yes 20%)</U> of you HP pool per tick</DIV> <DIV>      4 : Can't do more than 10 ticks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LB do 5 pts of damage for each hp consumed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So ... basically, if you're not limited by condition 1 (raid mob by example) and if you have healers on your back ... you'll do 10 * <your max hit points> * 5 / 5 = 10 * <your max hit points></DIV> <DIV>if you haven't any healer on your back and don't heal yourself it will tick 5 times only => 5 * <your max hit points></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>example : you're at 10kHP, you can potentially do 100kHP (with healers and assuming you're not getting aggroed ^^).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think I'm wrong I can post parses, but I think it will again be wrong for the class to do so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>let's go back to raid wide dps discussion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"BIZOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUXXX"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Necrobisounours 70 Storms (french attitude ^^) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[bluegod]

<div><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:Because inevitably other classes link to such things in discussions about how they claim their own classes are gimped compared to our DPS, thus trying to influence yet ANOTHER nerf on us.Clear?<hr></blockquote>yuppers.  and that appears to be what this thread devolved into.  at least one *necro* (shame on you) stating that lifeburn should be nerfed and then the worn-out arguments of who should and shouldn't be T1 dps.  </div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bluegod wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eriol wrote:<BR>Because inevitably other classes link to such things in discussions about how they claim their own classes are gimped compared to our DPS, thus trying to influence yet ANOTHER nerf on us.<BR><BR>Clear?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yuppers.  and that appears to be what this thread devolved into.  at least one *necro* (shame on you) stating that lifeburn should be nerfed and then the worn-out arguments of who should and shouldn't be T1 dps.  <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You were right.  While I'm beyond the point of class bickering, and fingerpointing, it appears there are still forum members with class envy.</P> <P>In my eyes, conj/necro's were made t1 dps a long time ago SOE just never posted a revised class balance chart to include it.   You guys bickering about necro dps can deny it all you want even deny it to yourself but that is the truth, its how its been for nearly a year now.  And obviously if soe felt summoners were doing too much damage you guys would have been nerfed to hell a long time ago like rangers were.  So lets just accept summoners as a t1 dps class and move on mmm k?</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>12-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Jasuo]

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <div></div> So lets just accept summoners as a t1 dps class and move on mmm k?<p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>You know they may lynch you for this <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>  but it is fact, we're just tired of drudging it up.  Those class dps tiers were never an official thing, just something people try and hold onto to cry over no matter if the dev who posted them said they weren't legit.</div>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jasuo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR><BR> So lets just accept summoners as a t1 dps class and move on mmm k? <P><SPAN class=date_text></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You know they may lynch you for this <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN>  but it is fact, we're just tired of drudging it up.  Those class dps tiers were never an official thing, just something people try and hold onto to cry over no matter if the dev who posted them said they weren't legit.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually it was official, and AFAIK it was never retracted.  What one of the devs did say (moorgard?) was that he wished he had never posted them because people were misconstruing what he said. </P> <P>Regardless, even if summoners have been doing T1 dps for a while your going to have a hard time selling it to other T1 classes that lack their utility.  Obviously IT is correct though - if the devs didn't like where summoners were they would have changed it by now. </P>

[Tokam]

<P>I still dont get this whole utility argument.</P> <P>1) Roll a tinkerer - way overpowered atm</P> <P>2) People point to my utility in groups - I point to their burst dps in groups (I struggle to get over 800 dps in groups, my best is around 900 - 920 zone wde for obelisk / crypt). If there is a sorc and a rogue in the group then I might as well just auto attack with the pet and afk - stuff will be dead long before Ive had chance to make much of an impact.</P> <P>3) People point to my utility in raids. What utility? I can FD, just like every single other toon now. I can res, just like every single other toon now. I can heal.... for 1.2k every 12 secs if I chain cast (this is perhaps the only situational utility that we have, as I can remember saving an x2 raid once when healers were stunned / knocked back, tower of stone rocks....) I have stat debuffs for int sta wis and whatever else drawing souls debuffs. These are not important as mobs are easily fully debuffed in these areas and it seems to have little impact anyways. I can pet pull, completley shafting my dps for the fight and surveil is a better choice anyways... Oh I have a small debuff for disease / poison damage too. Great.</P> <P>Its an old argument made by lazy people.</P>

[Brightstrid]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Sulpeel wrote:) People point to my utility in raids. What utility? I can FD, just like every single other toon now. I can res, just like every single other toon now. I can heal.... for 1.2k every 12 secs if I chain cast (this is perhaps the only situational utility that we have, as I can remember saving an x2 raid once when healers were stunned / knocked back, tower of stone rocks....) I have stat debuffs for int sta wis and whatever else drawing souls debuffs. These are not important as mobs are easily fully debuffed in these areas and it seems to have little impact anyways. I can pet pull, completley shafting my dps for the fight and surveil is a better choice anyways... Oh I have a small debuff for disease / poison damage too. Great.____________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________Well being able to rez is one of the biggest things for us on a raid, as healers should never be rezzing people to start with, before other classes who can do, especially as they should be concentrating on keeping the mt up not rezzing some over nuking/week resisting players. Ruinous heart in a raid where mobs burning players power or its a long fight is very much needed, as all players should be using there hearts non stop, not just using them when they get low on power, if used as soon as up and spam the necro for another, the makes  a big diff to the outcome of any long fight. The heal spells  we have is  a great help,displace life and even soothing soul, there has been many times i have contributed to healing a mt or even an ot that has kept them up in fight where a little bit more healing was neede. Fd lol with lifeburn its a defo major one, u cast it then next click u hit fd, tank dont lose aggro (self explantory really) Onto our some of our other utility spells.  Alot of the drawing of souls line are great, unstoppable sould on a the mt just after he is bolstered for instance on a major named (m1 increases max health of target by 16% and increases mit against all physical by 416) then there is flayered soul same as other except its max power, and increases ranged/slashing/disruption/piercing/ordination and subjucation by 25. Abominable mark and drawing of souls are both very good debuff spells, saying that they dont make a diff is really naive, what if everyone else thought the same?  Now we have  access to the ooze crawler debuff pet, that makes one hell of a utility, necros are'nt all about dps/dps/dps.Why would pet pulling affect your dps on a raid fight, try using call of servant as soon as mob been engaged, most times i find that using tank pet in def will take the intial [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from epic and its only when its been running back that that its been nuked etc from mob and dies. if using cos then isnt really an issue.If its a long pull then engaging mob and once engaged instantly recasting another pet whille the mobs are on the way, wont affect you either.Necros are vastly improved with utility now any who think they are not, really need to go back to the faq at top of this forum and start again, or if its just about dps, then become a wizz/war who really arent that great on utilty and more concentrated on dps.P.s, sorry to derail thread from what it was about, just get annoyed when people say we aint utility <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Brightstrider on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:34 AM</span>

[Tokam]

<P>Hehe no worries matey - this is more interesting than this crappy thread anyways (rar trolls...)</P> <P>Im not a huge fan of our res, I can't think of another that gets you on your feet with less power / hp. When raiding we have our dirge or pally do the res dance (dirge seems to enjoy it more than dpsing, and she loves getting us naked...) But fair enough if those 2 have been busy, or there is no res evident in about 3 secs ill send one. Ive gone for lifeburn / ooze crawler AA build so I dont have any spare points to make my res a bit better.</P> <P>As far as the stat debuffs go I am not discounting the importance of them in general, but with brig sk defiler doing their thing I have never really noticed the difference. If it is a pretty vicious caster mob then I make a point of keeping the int debuff up, and wis helps all our casters but I never see either having much of an effect zonewide. Of course the ooze crawler takes us down a different route and is a huge debuff to land on a mob - and we rightly have to sacrifice pet dps for such a cool spell.</P> <P>And pet pulling, well I'll acept that I may be a little unlucky (or just crap) here, but it seems to me that if you pull the pet back (presuming it doesnt get one shotted, animists bond??) then you are going to move the target mob while it is still aggro to your pet. If the encounter then runs past a social mob doing a combat art / spell you are going to get adds. And also shouted at because of course its the necros fault and not the game mechanics that made it happen.... Now that they fixed the god pets we have to spend 10ish secs recasting our pet / pet stance which is a long time for a dps class to stand around not dpsing.</P> <P>Again, im not saying that we have no utility. Im just saying that the argument of 'we have less raid utility, we must do more raid dps' is now (and has always been, in my view) fundamentally flawed.</P>

[Brightstrid]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>For the pet pulling part, you should'nt be pulling if mobs are social anyway, it should be the ranger thats doing that anyways, thats why they got the skill to avoid that.  As for the rez parts, as a necro you should be the first on the list who is rezzing,  if you working with the dirge, u should be deciding between you both who is rezzing first (saves time on clicking and attempting to cast,  even if u let them know before hand, its a waste of a click) palas should no way be rezzng straight off in  my eyes, they are tanks after all, they should be involved far more with helping the mt/healers, stuff the casters/scouts (i dont mind seeing the pala dying anyways  they are after all the infidels <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Those that think we are a pure dps class (yes it was stated necros are t1 dps along time ago, check the back chats on this topic) are either not necros or necros who have'nt got a clue, any raiding necro who purely turns up to a raid to try to be top on dps tree, really needs to learn what a, team work is all about, and more importantly what our class is all about, we are so much more versatile  than that, and the funniest part of this all is, dont people realise that as a class when the devs created us/added to us they realised this (contradicting something i said about devs not having a clue a whille ago, until now btw) we can be top dps on a raid, we can solo better than any class (imo) and we can debuff now like no other fu%*er  with our new pet, tell me we are just a one track pony, and i will show you elvis working in a chip shop in peckam who's going by the name of  mandy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (oh plz, that was sarcasm for those noobs who feel clever enough to say it)The days of just button bashing are over for our class imo, if u want that, then people, there is plenty of "track n field" style games out there u can do this with, so you can then ache like a sore (enter what i thinking here) till your hearts content.Who cares what we are parsing, maybe start thinking about what your guild is killing and whether you actually helping, not just about how big your "richard" is on the dps tree, there is no "i" in team after all (yes there is in "vin diesel" and alot of other names before some other smart arses say it btw ). <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Brightstrider on <span class=date_text>12-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:56 PM</span>

[whytakemine]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sulpeel wrote:<div></div> <p>I still dont get this whole utility argument.</p> <p>1) Roll a tinkerer - way overpowered atm</p> <p>2) People point to my utility in groups - I point to their burst dps in groups (I struggle to get over 800 dps in groups, my best is around 900 - 920 zone wde for obelisk / crypt). If there is a sorc and a rogue in the group then I might as well just auto attack with the pet and afk - stuff will be dead long before Ive had chance to make much of an impact.</p> <p>3) People point to my utility in raids. What utility? I can FD, just like every single other toon now. I can res, just like every single other toon now. I can heal.... for 1.2k every 12 secs if I chain cast (this is perhaps the only situational utility that we have, as I can remember saving an x2 raid once when healers were stunned / knocked back, tower of stone rocks....) I have stat debuffs for int sta wis and whatever else drawing souls debuffs. These are not important as mobs are easily fully debuffed in these areas and it seems to have little impact anyways. I can pet pull, completley shafting my dps for the fight and surveil is a better choice anyways... Oh I have a small debuff for disease / poison damage too. Great.</p> <p>Its an old argument made by lazy people.</p><hr></blockquote>I think you're underestimating your utility.  Try pulling all of your utility spells off your hotbars (hearts, FD, rez, heal, buffs, debuffs) and play for a week and see how much you miss them.  I'm not saying they're game breaking, but they do help.  If you're a tinker, feel free to use any tinkered items you've made.  Likewise self buffs are ok.I'm not trying to troll, I'm perfectly happy with the necro's I raid with doing as much dps as they can.  But if you can't see why sorcerors and predators can be resentful of your ability to dps well and at the same time provide other useful utility, then I think you're deluding yourself.  We could break down sorceror/pred/summoner utility down spell by spell, but it's been done a gazillion times and I (like you) am tired of the argument.  Even if you're not thrilled with necro utility, it's very easy to see it's much better than what we provide.My original post was not intended to delve into this all again, but merely to correct what Jazuo said about the damage tiers.  Apparently Brightstrider has seen a dev post I haven't that said necro's are intended to be tier 1 dps.  I'd be interested in seeing that - I did a quick search but didn't turn anything up.And now we've thoroughly derailed this thread, although I didn't see many people posting parses in it anyway. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Tokam]

Doh I forgot to talk about hearts - they are deffo some raid utillity

[KBern]

<P>And I go back to my initial post....you don't talk about necro DPS anymore on these boards.</P> <P>It's like fight club....</P> <P>:smileytongue:</P>

[Boran]

<div><blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jasuo wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <div></div> <div></div>So lets just accept summoners as a t1 dps class and move on mmm k? <p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"></span></p> <hr> </blockquote>You know they may lynch you for this <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>  but it is fact, we're just tired of drudging it up.  Those class dps tiers were never an official thing, just something people try and hold onto to cry over no matter if the dev who posted them said they weren't legit.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Actually it was official, and AFAIK it was never retracted.  What one of the devs did say (moorgard?) was that he wished he had never posted them because people were misconstruing what he said. </p> <p>Regardless, even if summoners have been doing T1 dps for a while your going to have a hard time selling it to other T1 classes that lack their utility.  Obviously IT is correct though - if the devs didn't like where summoners were they would have changed it by now. </p><hr></blockquote>The Tiers were retracted and also were never official. As already stated the tiers are only brought up by the whiners and griefers who would rather get others nerfed than figure out how to play their own class properly (as to evidence of the retractions, just look through some of my old posts cause I can't be arsed linking this yet again).This is exactly why posts about parsing are a bad idea, the concept is great but class envy outweighs everything else.</div>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boran wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>The Tiers were retracted and also were never official. As already stated the tiers are only brought up by the whiners and griefers who would rather get others nerfed than figure out how to play their own class properly (as to evidence of the retractions, just look through some of my old posts cause I can't be arsed linking this yet again).<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0033>This is exactly why posts about parsing are a bad idea, the concept is great but class envy outweighs everything else.<BR></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I did do a quick search on your posts, and all I found was this:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20056&query.id=0#M20056" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=20056&query.id=0#M20056</A></P> <P>Cut&Paste:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>Quote from Moorgard<BR><BR>The relative damage rankings posted a while back were clearly stated not to be absolutes. They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99>To parse a certain fight or two and say "Look, this other class that is supposed to do less damage than mine outdamaged me" is not indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are a lot of factors to take into account. The rankings were meant to indicate relative positions over the long haul, not in every single encounter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333>We have access to combat data across all servers, levels, and group sizes, and we use it to look for cases where classes are performing as a whole either noticeably above or below expectations and will continue to make adjustments as necessary.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ff99>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II<BR></FONT></P> <P>This is the same post I was talking about earlier.  Exactly where in there does he say the damage tiers are inaccurate, or being retracted?  What he does say is people misconstrued the damage tiers as absolutes - that a tier 2 class should never out damage a tier 1 class.  That's obviously wrong, but it does not mean the damage tiers themselves are incorrect.</P> <P>I doubt posting about parses is going to get you nerfed, if you're performing higher than intended according to their data they will adjust you as Moorgard clearly states.  If you are out of balance though, it may cause more people to roll necro's, bringing more attention to it.  So yeah, if you think you're overpowered that would be the only reason not to post parses.  As IT already said, there are parse posts in assassin and wizard forums and they are several pages long.  No nerf bat yet.</P> <P>Edit: btw, I parsed 1356k extDPS in DT last night zonewide.  Since our raid force is definitely not uber, I think that's pretty respectable and shows I know how to play my class decently well.  I can do without the personal attacks calling me a whiner and a griefer that doesn't know how to play my class.  I'm also not necessarily calling for a nerf on necro's.  All I'm saying is there is something wrong when a class with much more utility is providing equivalent dps as classes without that utility.  If SOE wanted to solve this inequality by bumping up predator/sorceror utility I'd be perfectly happy with that.</P><p>Message Edited by whytakemine on <span class=date_text>01-08-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 PM</span>

[Boran]

/applauseWell done you managed to troll through all 261 posts I've made and came up with the one that you think supports your argument. There is another post that exists where one of the Devs effectively retracted the tiers saying that they were a very rough guide for there use only and were not intended for anything else.I also was not personally attacking you, calling you a stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would be a personal attack, stating that the only ones who troll others parse posts to make baseless comments is a generalisation and if you choose to take is an attack then clearly you have a guilty conscience.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boran wrote:<BR>/applause<BR><BR>Well done you managed to troll through all 261 posts I've made and came up with the one that you think supports your argument. There is another post that exists where one of the Devs effectively retracted the tiers saying that they were a very rough guide for there use only and were not intended for anything else.<BR><BR>I also was not personally attacking you, calling you a stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would be a personal attack, stating that the only ones who troll others parse posts to make baseless comments is a generalisation and if you choose to take is an attack then clearly you have a guilty conscience.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep I guess if the Assassin has more time he can search through every Dev post to find the one that says they wished they never posted the tiers because people are misinterpreting the intent of the original post.<p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 AM</span>

[Sosum]

I personally challenge everyone who says we are over powered and DPS too much to play us... they will quickly learn that our DPS is earned... there is NO WAY we can send pet and kick back to a nice book and maintain a high DPS, we must be on the ball at all times, rez, hearts etc....... its a lot of work and as such when we do parse high no one in raid ever  complains of our efforts.  I did a test on the request of my guild ranger and used my mage pet and renamed him to a name other than my own, while in the caster DPS and my personal DPS without pet assistance is 8-900ish.  Master mage pet and master buffs with AA points in INT and mage pet respectively was pulling 5-700 tops. Shorter fights faired far far worse. These numbers were also while in Courts.As far as parsing I am also consistantly behind our guild assassin except when my situational spells or nameds fights come up and the fight is longer than a minute and then I rock them too.  Maybe the problem is because we are game spec'd for longer fights, and most raid zones are longer fights it appears we are overpowered but I think other classes could easily adjust their personal DPS if they looked at spell order and what exactly they are using.<div></div>

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boran wrote:<BR>/applause<BR><BR>Well done you managed to troll through all 261 posts I've made and came up with the one that you think supports your argument. There is another post that exists where one of the Devs effectively retracted the tiers saying that they were a very rough guide for there use only and were not intended for anything else.<BR><BR>I also was not personally attacking you, calling you a stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would be a personal attack, stating that the only ones who troll others parse posts to make baseless comments is a generalisation and if you choose to take is an attack then clearly you have a guilty conscience.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I searched on all post by you with "tier" anywhere in the post.  No, I didn't spend a lot of time, but it seems to me if the post exists as you claim that should have found it.  The only two threads that came up are this one and the one I linked.  </P> <P>It's silly to try and rephrase your original post now, since everyone can easily see it.  Here, I'll quote it for you again:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boran wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>As already stated the tiers are only brought up by the whiners and griefers who would rather get others nerfed than figure out how to play their own class properly.<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>So according to you, anyone who mentions the tiers is a whiner and a griefer who doesn't know how to play their class.  Sounds like a personal attack to me.

[whytakemine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CADD wrote:<BR>I personally challenge everyone who says we are over powered and DPS too much to play us... they will quickly learn that our DPS is earned... there is NO WAY we can send pet and kick back to a nice book and maintain a high DPS, we must be on the ball at all times, rez, hearts etc....... its a lot of work and as such when we do parse high no one in raid ever  complains of our efforts. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Huh?  Who said your dps isn't earned?  All dps classes have to work hard to do max dps. </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>CADD wrote:<BR><BR>As far as parsing I am also consistantly behind our guild assassin except when my situational spells or nameds fights come up and the fight is longer than a minute and then I rock them too.  Maybe the problem is because we are game spec'd for longer fights, and most raid zones are longer fights it appears we are overpowered but I think other classes could easily adjust their personal DPS if they looked at spell order and what exactly they are using.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought we were talking about epics.  Heroic mobs die so fast anyway they're kind of worthless to parse.  Even the nameds rarely last more than 30s if you've got just 1 competent dps.<BR><BR></P>

[Boran]

<div><blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Boran wrote:/applauseWell done you managed to troll through all 261 posts I've made and came up with the one that you think supports your argument. There is another post that exists where one of the Devs effectively retracted the tiers saying that they were a very rough guide for there use only and were not intended for anything else.I also was not personally attacking you, calling you a stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would be a personal attack, stating that the only ones who troll others parse posts to make baseless comments is a generalisation and if you choose to take is an attack then clearly you have a guilty conscience. <hr> </blockquote> <p>I searched on all post by you with "tier" anywhere in the post.  No, I didn't spend a lot of time, but it seems to me if the post exists as you claim that should have found it.  The only two threads that came up are this one and the one I linked.  </p> <p>It's silly to try and rephrase your original post now, since everyone can easily see it.  Here, I'll quote it for you again:</p> <blockquote> <hr> Boran wrote: <div>As already stated the tiers are only brought up by the whiners and griefers who would rather get others nerfed than figure out how to play their own class properly. <hr> </div></blockquote>So according to you, anyone who mentions the tiers is a whiner and a griefer who doesn't know how to play their class.  Sounds like a personal attack to me.<hr></blockquote>A personal attack mentions a name, a generalization mentions a group. I am not being "silly" or "rephrasing" just trying to help you understand the English language.</div>

[LazyPurp]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Sarkoris wrote:<div><p>/Wave Malign - Najena represent.</p><p>The key things I think that help to top dps parsers are: group makeup, quality of pets and ca's (master over ad3 over ad1 etc), aa's (you have to love lifeburn), gear (proc gear, high int etc) and most importantly knowledge of your class.</p><p>I will get some zone wide raid parsers from this weeks raids (cleared logs at the weekend). I don't parse as high as some of those that have posted, usually around 2k on named and 1.2-1.4k zonewide depending on how heavy the AOE action is (/shudder HOS). Sadly the only master pet I have is the tank pet, and I have been slacking off on AA's (59 total).</p><p><font color="#6633cc">Lets get down to specifics. What AA's paths have you taken. Be specific as in Int 4-4-4-8 etc - not just int line. Which EOF AA's have you taken or intend to take and why. What gear do you use to increase your DPS. What pets do you use (always mage regardless of aoe, scout on occassion etc) and what quality are they. What is the quality of yoru archlich (to help work out proc damage).</font></p><p><font color="#6633cc">What is your cast cycle. Do you debuff to help the raid out or consider that someone else's job and purely cast offensive spells. Do you only cast duisease based spells for the lich proc ? What range do you stand from mobs, up close and personal to fire off a life tap aoe occassionally and so your backed off mage pet doesnt have to return so far, or max range and ping away with your dots. Does your cast cyxcle differ from trash mobs to named ? Do you only stay on the MA target or tab over to put your swarm pets on another mob ?</font></p><p>I'll start and add more detail once I can logon and verify a few things.</p><p>KOS - AA's. Not sure and eq2 players is borked atm. Pretty sure its str and int line. Exact numbers not really sure.</p><p>EOF - 20 in rotting - 1 in final ability (lifeburn). 3 points in grave calling line (mage ability).</p><p>Proc Gear: Grizzle's walking stick, godking staff and collection earring (name escapes me).</p><p>Casting order - long dot, short dot, lifetap, possibly darkness or debuff for the lich proc, swarm and aoe pet timed depending on aoe - early if no aoe, post aoe to maximise life expectancy otherwise. aoe dot and aoe lifetap if many targets and no risk of aoe, or continue standard cycle, undead tide and lifeburn thrown in on named.</p><p>Sark.</p></div><hr></blockquote>CADD wrote: I personally challenge everyone who says we are over powered and DPS too much to play us... they will quickly learn that our DPS is earned... there is NO WAY we can send pet and kick back to a nice book and maintain a high DPS, we must be on the ball at all times, rez, hearts etc....... its a lot of work and as such when we do parse high no one in raid ever  complains of our efforts.  I did a test on the request of my guild ranger and used my mage pet and renamed him to a name other than my own, while in the caster DPS and my personal DPS without pet assistance is 8-900ish.  Master mage pet and master buffs with AA points in INT and mage pet respectively was pulling 5-700 tops. Shorter fights faired far far worse. These numbers were also while in Courts. As far as parsing I am also consistantly behind our guild assassin except when my situational spells or nameds fights come up and the fight is longer than a minute and then I rock them too. <font color="#6633cc"> Maybe the problem is because we are game spec'd for longer fights, and most raid zones are longer fights it appears we are overpowered but I think other classes could easily adjust their personal DPS if they looked at spell order and what exactly they are using.</font><hr><b>CADD and SARK /Applause! </b>We are mainly DoT. We cannot do massive crazy dps all the time. We have to cast 100% of the time, have our specials up and have a long fight. I raid with some amazing people & if they want the fight to end qucikly, they burn it down so fast I do not have an option for the dps that can be possible!Long Epic encounters are the best (not super long, just not short) DoT + Specials + Good INT + Raid/Group Buffs+ Raid Debuffs+ Skills+ AA's Kos + AA's EoF + Time + procs + Miracles/Blessings+Casting Order (yes even adornments) = Necro <span>:smileywink:</span>DPS.  End of Story.</div>

[Sosum]

<div><blockquote><hr>whytakemine wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> CADD wrote:I personally challenge everyone who says we are over powered and DPS too much to play us... they will quickly learn that our DPS is earned... there is NO WAY we can send pet and kick back to a nice book and maintain a high DPS, we must be on the ball at all times, rez, hearts etc....... its a lot of work and as such when we do parse high no one in raid ever  complains of our efforts.  <hr> </blockquote> <p>Huh?  Who said your dps isn't earned?  All dps classes have to work hard to do max dps. </p> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>CADD wrote:As far as parsing I am also consistantly behind our guild assassin except when my situational spells or nameds fights come up and the fight is longer than a minute and then I rock them too.  Maybe the problem is because we are game spec'd for longer fights, and most raid zones are longer fights it appears we are overpowered but I think other classes could easily adjust their personal DPS if they looked at spell order and what exactly they are using.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I thought we were talking about epics.  Heroic mobs die so fast anyway they're kind of worthless to parse.  Even the nameds rarely last more than 30s if you've got just 1 competent dps.</p><hr></blockquote>um so you can get a guild dps of over 3million points in 30seconds?and I am talking about Inner Sanctum those blood guards have about 3-3.1million hit points and make for good judgement on dps ability verses... say the first 2 named in there which are a joke.</div>

[Deila]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote: Yep I guess if the Assassin has more time he can search through every Dev post to find the one that says they wished they never posted the tiers because people are misinterpreting the intent of the original post. <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If the post you mean was <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=100529#M100529" target=_blank>Moorgard's response</A> to my old thread about player misconceptions over the so-called 'DPS tiers', it's easier for me to find.</P> <P>People just don't seem to want to understand that the entire game isn't balanced just around raid encounters. Or just around solo. Or group. It's balanced around <I>all</I> of those playstyles. And 'DPS tiers' is a horse so dead they can't even get glue out of it any more.</P> <P></P>

[KBern]

lol yep, that is it exactly.

[Boran]

<div><blockquote><hr>Deila wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> KBern wrote: <div></div> <div></div>Yep I guess if the Assassin has more time he can search through every Dev post to find the one that says they wished they never posted the tiers because people are misinterpreting the intent of the original post. <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>If the post you mean was <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=100529#M100529" target="_blank">Moorgard's response</a> to my old thread about player misconceptions over the so-called 'DPS tiers', it's easier for me to find.</p> <p>People just don't seem to want to understand that the entire game isn't balanced just around raid encounters. Or just around solo. Or group. It's balanced around <i>all</i> of those playstyles. And 'DPS tiers' is a horse so dead they can't even get glue out of it any more.</p> <p></p><hr></blockquote>Spot on, thanks Deila <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Tokam]

<P>Are we starting to understand why starting a parse thread on this forum was not a great idea yet, malignx?</P> <P><EM>'Who is the happiest of men? He who values the merits of others and in their pleasure takes joy, even as though 'twere his own'</EM></P>

[Shailas]

Parse threads... Just Say No! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[bluegod]

there's another reason i think these parse threads are  unproductive.  i don't think that the necros who post here with their uber dps are your average necro, as far as quality of spells, gear, pets, etc. goes.  for the longest time i couldn't figure out what i was doing wrong.  i'd parse my dps and it wouldn't be anywhere near as high as what most necros posting were claiming to get, even though i was using all the tips and tricks that i'd picked up from reading the boards.  then it dawned on me that those with the high dps are raid-geared and fully mastered or close to it.  i'm not.  a couple of masters, a few adept iii, the rest adept i and average gear -- i have 1 item that procs.  and i would wager that what i have is closer to what the average necro has.  so what happens?  the average necro stops by the boards, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks they suck at the class; and the non-necro stops by, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks necros are over-powered. my rule of thumb now is this:  am i doing more damage than the healer and the meat shield?  do the mobs drop quicker when i'm in the group?  am i contributing to the success and survival of the group?  if i can answer yes to those 3 questions then i consider myself to be doing alright. on a side note, i remember being in ct in a group with a warlock and him lighting off a spell that killed the entire group we were fighting before i had a chance to finish casting my aoe.  holy cow!  that's amazing, i thought. and i was a bit jealous for a fraction of a second.  but then i remembered why i play a necro.  it's not for the dps.  it's because i love the class and all that it can do.  <div></div>

[Sosum]

<div><blockquote><hr>bluegod wrote:there's another reason i think these parse threads are  unproductive.  i don't think that the necros who post here with their uber dps are your average necro, as far as quality of spells, gear, pets, etc. goes.  for the longest time i couldn't figure out what i was doing wrong.  i'd parse my dps and it wouldn't be anywhere near as high as what most necros posting were claiming to get, even though i was using all the tips and tricks that i'd picked up from reading the boards.  then it dawned on me that those with the high dps are raid-geared and fully mastered or close to it.  i'm not.  a couple of masters, a few adept iii, the rest adept i and average gear -- i have 1 item that procs.  and i would wager that what i have is closer to what the average necro has.  so what happens?  the average necro stops by the boards, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks they suck at the class; and the non-necro stops by, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks necros are over-powered. my rule of thumb now is this:  am i doing more damage than the healer and the meat shield?  do the mobs drop quicker when i'm in the group?  am i contributing to the success and survival of the group?  if i can answer yes to those 3 questions then i consider myself to be doing alright. on a side note, i remember being in ct in a group with a warlock and him lighting off a spell that killed the entire group we were fighting before i had a chance to finish casting my aoe.  holy cow!  that's amazing, i thought. and i was a bit jealous for a fraction of a second.  but then i remembered why i play a necro.  it's not for the dps.  it's because i love the class and all that it can do.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>well put.Most people posting here are raid equiped/mastered out.   but its still not our best we still try for more and it shows what can be achieved.  I know that sounds trite but t5/t6 I had maybe 4 masters total if that and no fabled gear but necros then still could high dps.  I struggle against eqiually equiped predators but again its all based on the type of fight and how group structure is.</div>

[Boran]

<blockquote><hr>CADD wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>bluegod wrote:there's another reason i think these parse threads are  unproductive.  i don't think that the necros who post here with their uber dps are your average necro, as far as quality of spells, gear, pets, etc. goes.  for the longest time i couldn't figure out what i was doing wrong.  i'd parse my dps and it wouldn't be anywhere near as high as what most necros posting were claiming to get, even though i was using all the tips and tricks that i'd picked up from reading the boards.  then it dawned on me that those with the high dps are raid-geared and fully mastered or close to it.  i'm not.  a couple of masters, a few adept iii, the rest adept i and average gear -- i have 1 item that procs.  and i would wager that what i have is closer to what the average necro has.  so what happens?  the average necro stops by the boards, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks they suck at the class; and the non-necro stops by, sees how incredibly high the dps parses are and thinks necros are over-powered. my rule of thumb now is this:  am i doing more damage than the healer and the meat shield?  do the mobs drop quicker when i'm in the group?  am i contributing to the success and survival of the group?  if i can answer yes to those 3 questions then i consider myself to be doing alright. on a side note, i remember being in ct in a group with a warlock and him lighting off a spell that killed the entire group we were fighting before i had a chance to finish casting my aoe.  holy cow!  that's amazing, i thought. and i was a bit jealous for a fraction of a second.  but then i remembered why i play a necro.  it's not for the dps.  it's because i love the class and all that it can do.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>well put.Most people posting here are raid equiped/mastered out.   but its still not our best we still try for more and it shows what can be achieved.  I know that sounds trite but t5/t6 I had maybe 4 masters total if that and no fabled gear but necros then still could high dps.  I struggle against eqiually equiped predators but again its all based on the type of fight and how group structure is.</div><hr></blockquote>The other issue is that everyone needs to be using the same parser with the same settings or it all becomes pointless.

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boran wrote:<BR>The other issue is that everyone needs to be using the same parser with the same settings or it all becomes pointless.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yep.</P> <P>We have someone run the DPS parser in our DPS channel and another run the heal Parser in the heal channel and if they have their settings even slightly different on the delay of when combat starts and ends, they get different numbers.</P>

[Jal]

Not to mention the mage/melee distance issues.

[Tokam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jalek wrote:<BR>Not to mention the mage/melee distance issues.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is that the 'Tokamak did no damage because she was running away like a little girl' issue?

[Jal]

No it was the "Swashbuckler A is trying to insert themselves down the throat of epic foe B so is not always showing the same damage to Mage C standing safely in the shadows"