Nerf bat ...?

[Erow]

I thought the only nerf comming for Necromancers was a reduction in inate DPS on our Shadow pets. How did we end up with a 10% overall reduction in DPS..??17% redux in Swarm/Dumbfire pets is HUGE..!!Didn't SOE that they would not be altering the solo'ability of our class ..? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is 17% redux ??-Erowid

[pyrotechn]

<DIV>Umm our dps wasn't nerfed by 10%, more like 40-50%.</DIV> <DIV>Swarm </DIV>

[pyrotechn]

<DIV>Umm our dps wasn't nerfed by 10%, more like 40%.</DIV> <UL> <LI>Swarm pets no longer recieve "innate stat bonuses." That is allegedly 17.5% reduction in their damage, but it could be more if they are no longer affected by player stat buffs.  Someone should test this.</LI> <LI>More importantly duration of dumbfires has been shortened, and timers extended.  Thus, there will be periods of time where you do not have dumfires up.  This applies to both Swarm Pet lines and Stench lines.  Instead of having dumbfires up continually, you'll only have them up about 2/3rds of the time.  That combined with the 17.5% damage reduction is about a 40% drop in  dumbfire damage.  </LI> <LI>Shadow Pet received a 33% DPS reduction.</LI></UL> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by pyrotechnic on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[Erow]

??Either way:-17% redux in dps from Swarm of Bats-17% redux in dps from Stench pets-17% redux in dps from Swarm of Rats-30% redux in dps from shadow petsAND... we now cannot resummon them as fast on multiple targets. So, almost every other pull during dungeon crawls with mutliple targets where i will not even be able to attack. THATS INSANE.Thats a HUGE nerf. I don't think SOE realized lumping all swarm pets into 1 nerf kills the class. Since are DPS comes from multiple simultanious forms swarm pets. That equivalent as reducing ALL the forms of dmg a Warlock gets by 17% instead of just 1 line/form.They essentially removed a spell line from out arsenol. All those nerf equal enough loss in DPS that removing Swarm of Bats entirely from the game and leaving the others alone wouldn't still equal the nerf we just receieved.We are now using more mana for less effect. I suggest just Removing 1 of the 3 castable pets we can have up to 2 and leave the others alone. Almost the same nerf and at least we don't have to wast thwe time and power casting the 3rd pet swarm<p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

[Xtrik]

<P>Ouch .. that's going to hert !</P> <P>My master Shadow pet was my favorite pet. I wounder if I can get a refund for it ? Or be able to exchange it for a different pet. (Lot of luck) :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>I had a hard time with epic mobs. I had to be like 8 levels higher and then it was dicy. </P> <P>The Swarm & Stench timer stinks. For tougher mobs I had to wait 45 sec, now I have to wait 60 sec. :smileysad:</P>

[Meist]

<div></div>Whoa! How are you guys gettin 40-50% reduction?? You dont add all the DPS Reduction percentages...you average them, based on their relative damage done. And even then, its an overestimate of the reduction. This is because not ALL our spells got hit. My guess would be more on par with mid 20's...maybe a 25% reduction in dps. At work now, haven't tested...but I'm glad. We were way out of line.All in all, atleast now LU 24 is over with and we can look forward to our next nerf <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Xebars]

Swarm of Bats is not a dumbfire spell, it was not changed at all.If it was dumbfire, it would list a "limited pet to aid the caster" instead of the dmg the DoT does.That being said..most group battles don't last long enough to get the full effect of ANY Swarm pet.  Yes we won't be able to have Swarms up for EVERY fight if chain-pulling, but oh well...nearly every pull.This is mostly affecting raid necros, ones in fights lasting 3-5 mins.  THEY will see a big loss in Swarm dmg with the greater recast timers.And for the pet nerfs....sucks but, the scout WAS a bit ridiculous <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  He alone could out-dmg an average-equipped player scout, and that's not right.<div></div>

[Erow]

So... just nerf the scout pet.Not every Necromancer is a Raid player. If Wizards or Warlocks were complaining about Necro's DPS in raid situations, then work the logistics of Long duration battles.Why not give us a long duration 3 minute DOT that when casted doesn't allow for swarm pets... etc.Thats just off the top of my head.-Erowid

[PlageuReaver]

<DIV>couldnt care less bout the shadow pet, I <3 my mage pets</DIV>

[Za]

NO, our dps isn't 40-50% lower. NO, our soloing hasn't changed much. Barely noticable, and the pet changes aren't noticable at all soloing.They gave you an entire month and a half to play the changes on test... Many of us have played them, and posted results.I can't speak for raid content because I didn't Raid on test, but soloing, and both small and full group play is almost unchanged when compared to live. And when you compare our control spell changes to most other classes, we got the soft end of the nerf stick on those.The biggest change that I noticed was the longer recast on dumbfires... having them not last as long won't affect solo or group play, becasue their targets don't tend to last long for those fights anyway... raiders will notice this 15 seconds more... but since most of the time they die to AoE that's really not a big deal either. But the 1 minute recast means you actually don't have them available all the time... took a bit to get used to from a psycological perspective... I'm in the habit of having them all the time... It startled me a few times when I clicked the button and forgot I had 10 more seconds left on the recast timer.But overall, the changes are fairly unnoticable to solo and grouping summoners.For anyone that didn't try out test you really missed out. It was cool being able to buff any char to the 50s, 60s, or 70, just to see that the grass ain't greener in anyones yard.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>PlageuReaver wrote:<DIV>couldnt care less bout the shadow pet, I <3 my mage pets</DIV><hr></blockquote>The mage pet now does much nicer DPS in groups... but I love to solo with the scout now. It cleans up blue mobs VERY fast and is easier to keep healed than the mage or tank. The mage lacks HPs and avoidance so its hpts bounce around alot, the tank has tons of HPs but lacks avoidance so its just a pain to heal. The scout has good avoidance and enough hpts, than vs blue ^ mobs, it stands its own and when you do heal it, you heal a good percentage of its HPs... makes you feel like a real healer vs the tank laughing at you.

[Ralg]

<P>Seeing as how my necro is only 19, I never felt the "uberness" factor.  I never will now.  It's downhill from here.  If they reduced the dps by 25%, then I wonder how Scott Hartsman can feel good about saying that they reduced the damage but kept necros in the top tier damage dealers.  I guess I won't feel the nerf since I didn't have all the fancy toys the higher level necros used to get.  I won't miss what I never had.</P> <P>I am ignorant of much of the whole dps and class envy thing, but what exactly is a tier?  I mean if necros are supposedly still in the top tier of damage, where does that put wizards, warlocks and illusionists?  Is there a supposed hiearhcy within a given tier?  i.e. wizard > necro > warlock > illusionist in the "mage" tier?</P>

[Za]

L70 wiz vs L70 Necro... we're still comparable DPS in many situations, we still own DPS in a few, and overall we've till got more tricks and options than a wizzard.At L24, you're not going downhill, and unless they really nerf us again after LU24, you're headed for ubberness.And the tiers are a generalization that a dev made over a year ago that some people took to be the EQ2 Evangelical Bible.Its more meant to define general expectations.Wizards are by far supposed to be a missle launcher class... But can an assault rifle do the same kinds of damage to some targets given enough time? Yes... in some cases, no in others. The tiers were never meant to be an absolute, but they are useful in a broad sence.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 PM</span>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR>The mage pet now does much nicer DPS in groups... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>To be fair here.. the mage pet does the same DPS as it did in LU 23.  Only change was the assassin pet.  It is now comparable in DPS to the mage pet.  </P> <P>The dumbfire pet thing was a little unexpected.  I havn't checked the forums in a while (I was happy with the pet nerfs, no need to view the boards).  It doesn't affect us much?  (I'm generally asking here, as I'm unaware of the change.)  Personally I think they're almost worthless as it is (on a raid).  Now they're weaker and take longer to use.  Ugh.  They touched Undead Tide too.  Some days I wish we wern't king of mass pets.</P><p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 PM</span>

[Jai1]

<P>Just as long as it gets people off our back.  Too much hate for the necro.  Looking for a little love.  </P> <P>I mostly raid.  I will check the parses tonight.  I can't imagine we got 40% reductions. </P>

[britn]

I'm not thrilled about the changes, but I do think they are fair and balancing.  What would be nice though is to beef up our pet's hp/mit/avoidance across the board.  Sure we don't do as much dmg as before, but at least our pets can last a little longer instead of getting wiped with one AOE. <div></div>

[sig]

<DIV>i have a 70 necro and was testing out changes on my scout pet, my adept3 scout pet buffed all the way up (even have minion's uproar maxed) cant solo a lv 62^ (entrance mobs in SoS)  i tried the tank pet and they mow right thru them no problem.  havnt tried mage yet since BB went down shortly after.  as i see it necros have become preaty weak for soloing. i doubt ill be able to enjoy them as much anymore</DIV>

[OleMozzer]

I just had a good session on my level 36 necro- all solo of solo group mobs and I must say all's well.I could hardly tell the difference. Yes, the dumbfire type pets are a little weaker but I wasn't largely dependent on them before and they're still quite usefull.If anything my mage and tank pets seem more robust but I have nothing scientific to base that on.In some instances I seem to use a little more power but all in all it's about the same downtime (i.e. near none) between fights.phewww! the way these posts were going I was really nervous but for my play style I'm totally fine.I also have a 50 necro but I haven't played that one yet.Update: the 50 is also fine. The lamia babe (Grim Terror adept III - mage pet) still does spectacular damage. The tank (Rotting Thrall adept III) is sufficient. I have never been into killing ^^^ heroics solo so I can't really speak to that. I generally felt that I could only take heroics that were about 10 levels below me before LU24 and that will likely hold true.<p>Message Edited by OleMozzer on <span class=date_text>06-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 PM</span>

[kenji]

<DIV>hm....dumpfire dps got heavy nerfed yup</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-17% DPS</DIV> <DIV>-25% duration</DIV> <DIV>33% more recast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>roughly 50% reduction overall....</DIV>

[LiquidFlex]

Question about the swarm pets:Pre-update, a necro was able to have the DFs out and still cast the Swarm of Bats. Now that the timers and re-casts have changed, I was wondering if they also changed it to where you cannot cast the Bats while your other swarm is already out?I'm not around or able to play at the moment, just wondering if someone could test this out.<div></div>

[Belario]

Swarm of Bats is not a dumbfire, it's a debuff, so yes both can naturally be cast at the same time and do not share timers.

[ca]

<DIV> <P>Just had a chance to log in thru a freinds computer and run my 63 necro solo for about an hour, later tonight I will get a chance to group but as far as I can tell the changes, while noticable, are kinda minor. I was taking on those weird little things on the isle of fear, lvl 61 ^ with my adept 3 nightshade and while i was getting the deathblow a lot more than I usually did I noticed no game or classbreaking changes. As a matter of fact with the heal changes I really felt it was easier to keep her health up enough to constant pull with no breaks, the swarm pet change was annoying, but only annoying, not horribly unfair by a long shot.</P> <P>Honestly I may change my mind when I get into a solid group, but I doubt it, as for raiding I do it rarely, not by choice but by schedule conflict, and when I do I conscentrate on utility with dps as a large portion of said, I never do my lifetap without tossin the heal to someone, swarm pets only go in right after an AOE attack and RARELY last the entire duration. once again I will refrain from to much speculation, all I can say is the changes will take a bit of adjustment but I will do fine.</P> <P>My parting comment: before LU13 my main was a warden lvl 38, I loved this toon and honestly because he was easy, everyone wanted to group and I could keep anyone alive against anything with barely a few hotkey pushes. When LU13 came along the class was altered in a very strong and pallpable manner, I hated it, I quit the game for a month then came back and resumed on my necro, 3 months later I pulled my warden back out and had a blast with the changes, from now on I will not have a negative outlook on any changes untill I have had a good amount of time to try them out.</P></DIV>

[DarkArrow69]

Well I have been stuck to the stove&keg all day checking out all the tradeskill revamp so I haven't ventured out into the great beyond to survey the alleged damage. However, I hardly feel any of these changes are game-breaking for Necromancers.  I haven't found the scout pet to be particularly useful and I feel the tank pet's problems holding aggro just don't make it a worthwhile option unless I am soloing a single heroic mob (as a previous respondant said, I love my mage pet too!).  I also don't depend on swarm pets.  While they *did* a significant amount of DPS I relied on them more as a last resort (If my pet or I run low on power, or if I am letting my pet solo while I harvest and pull an unexpectedly difficult mob).  Not to mention the fact that our pet heal and the reactive heal associated with one of the pet buffs have been souped up. In addition, the control changes to the root and stun effects are actually something I would consider good for our class.  No more stun breakage? Decreased resistability? I'll take it! Even though I haven't had the opportunity to test out any of these changes, I will remain optimistic. <div></div>

[Baradin]

<DIV>Plus a faster stun casting time.  Very nice in a tight spot.</DIV>

[sig]

<DIV>first raid with the new update, yea DPS is garbage now most the time i can hit over 800 with ease, heh most i can get now is 600 and thats if i UNLOAD everything i got. the swarm pets do not get group/raid buffs any more which means they suck i would rather have a normal DOT then these pets</DIV>

[Baynne]

<P>honestly i didnt even notice a change in my swarm pets.  i would have been more upset about the scout nerf too if i ever bothered to use mine in the first place.  being only lvl 37 maybe i dont know what im in for, but atm my tank pet holds aggro over me and consistently pulls aggro off the warlock i duo with.  he is adept 1 undying adherant.  maybe by some miracle i will be able to get adept 3 or even M1 rotting thrall....</P> <P> </P> <P>perhaps if the timers on stench and swarms are so badly altered... you can weaken the blow from the nerf by alternating them instead of using them all at once.  in an encounter use like swarm first, then on next mobs use stench... just a suggestion to see if it could even out the apparent loss in DPS...</P>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>siges wrote:<div>first raid with the new update, yea DPS is garbage now most the time i can hit over 800 with ease, heh most i can get now is 600 and thats if i UNLOAD everything i got. the swarm pets do not get group/raid buffs any more which means they suck i would rather have a normal DOT then these pets</div><hr></blockquote><div>Which pet were you using in raid?</div>

[pyrotechn]

<DIV>Ok, only person reporting but lets deal with the numbers he's given us:</DIV> <UL> <LI>800 dps before patch, wasn't trying (probably limited by agro?)</LI> <LI>600 dps after patch, was trying to do as much dmg as possible</LI></UL> <DIV>Raw difference, is reduction of 25% in damage.  But if we account for the fact that he wasn't pushing as hard pre-patch the reduction is probably 30% or more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for myself, i don't have a parser, but i can definately feel the difference in the scout pet.  He takes noticeably longer on mobs.  And the dumbfires are like half my DPS when i solo not having them for full duration, and the fact they aren't buffed by spells, is probably the biggest hit.  Especially when i use the tank pet, because then they are almost my soul source of dps besides lifetaps, tank pet has garbage attack, and now Neg 15% DPS mod.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sig]

<DIV>scout pet most of the time, since my mage is only adept1.  yet i have seen that the mage greatly out damages my scout.  and mayb if i switch my AA line to intel mage would end up kickin some major butt...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yet as said before i have done well over 800 DPS before the update w/ scout pet in LAB raids.  most DPS total that i have ever seen me do was 1.2k and now after the update the most i got was a little over 600, thats horrible IMO.   We had 2 conj's in the raid tonight yet their DPS was nowhere as low as mine, hitting for 700 and over still every fight w/ scout pets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i wouldnt mind the changes to the scout pet, but the limited pets should still be able to have group benefits.  what they made now is a ordinary dot that sux.  since most mobs AOE anyway,  they cant take hits... an increased timer on them was kinda dumb for that reason.  they should just transform the spell into a normal DoT cuz its completly useless the way it is now</DIV>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>I can still solo Championess in TT with my Adept 3 Dreadnought. Actually seemed easier after the changes in LU 24 today lol. Didn't have much time to try other mobs because servers came up right before my bedtime. I'll know more tomorrow if I can still do the same things as before LU24.</DIV>

[sig]

<DIV>a few noticable changes to add, defensive stance does work a bit better.</DIV> <DIV>undead tide (also dumbfire pet) summons more pets depending on corpses but does no more damage then what swarm does. (no group/raid benefits soo in the end useless, expecially since the recast is 15mins)</DIV> <DIV>tank pet does a little less damage then usual.</DIV> <DIV>pet heal is improved yet, you kill yourself faster</DIV> <DIV>root is kinda improved, lets you debuff your mob first w/o chance of breaking. in return shorter duration and seems to break more often</DIV> <DIV>fear is kinda useless 30% chance to break sux (big disapointment for me since its one of my favorite spells when i get in a bind)</DIV> <DIV>stun casting timer is improved  in return shorter duration and longer recast (also a big disapointment)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok im done its late 2:45AM luv to see what yall think</DIV>

[Jal]

Didnt solo anything yesterday but went with a group to one of the new instances in forsaken city, there was me and a ranger as dps and i didnt notice much change from our usual output. Looking at my combat log (i dont parse) it was disheartening to see a few 65 and 85's in their when usually all numbers were in the 100+'s previously but most other specials were still doing decent damage.Id definitely say this patch will make people think more about their pets than before, ill be pulling out my mage in certain situations now because the loss of uber dps of the scout doesnt warrant it being used in nearly all groups now. Wont raid till friday but im hopeful itll be good, dumbfire timers didnt seem too much of an issue i didnt notice any big pauses while i waited for them to be up pet heals were alot nicer.Still havent tested new undead tide range or my CC abilites.

[subari]

<P>Don't worry about raids. As a lvl 62 necro using the magepet (without aa-line) last sunday on a raid i still was 3th in dps-list in pp-return. And there were 4 other mages lvl 70, i used to heal and rezz very often and was chain-casting reg-hearts. I even let the lvl 70 elementalist behind me with his scout-pet, who got killed by aes several times. Most of the heroic encaunters i could not finish casting my spells bevore the mobs were nuked down by the others. Use your magepet, keep it away from ae and you will still be top-dps in a raid. Keep chain-doting, debuff the mobs, drop in for lifetap-ae, keep an eye on the healthbar of your raidmembers (i healed over 150'000 on that raid) and you still will be most welcome by your raidcom.</P> <P>Pushing the tankpet will be worth thinking about for a raid. I heared, that now it should be able to knockdown/stifle even epics, nice if the coerc is missing.</P>

[Jal]

I'd not worry about the mage pet aa line, i didnt notice any benefit really when i had it maxxed in last weeks raid to try it, the scout aa line is definitely worthwhile now though (except teleport).

[sig]

<DIV>tank pets have been able to root epics too if u didnt kno,  cast posses minion and check his skills theres nothing on there that says -if target is not epic-  havnt checked this after update actually but im preaty sure it still stands...  yet tank pet in raid ewww id boot the necro/conj outa my raid that used it lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok ok im REALLY goin to bed now</DIV>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>siges wrote:<DIV>tank pets have been able to root epics too if u didnt kno,  cast posses minion and check his skills theres nothing on there that says -if target is not epic-  havnt checked this after update actually but im preaty sure it still stands...  yet tank pet in raid ewww id boot the necro/conj outa my raid that used it lol</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>ok ok im REALLY goin to bed now</DIV><hr></blockquote>On AE mobs actually tank pets can be quite effective from what ive heard as the AA line can make them immune to AE and they wont die in one hit even without. Not ideal for sure but some people have had success.

[Zain60]

<P>(the following is raid input... i don't group much)</P> <P>I use the tankpet line (i switched a week ago to test it in Deathtoll since every other mob made me recast a pet 2-3 times) and it made my life alot easier and i pulled out about 600dps casting my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off.</P> <P>that was without a scout group. in melee buffed groups i did quite a bit more, or if i had my casting buffed by troub / illu etc... or both.  Just let the 'brigand-tankpet' run at the mob, and start putting on your proc gear and press buttons until you black out and you can do about as much dps as with a post-nerf scout pet.</P> <P>My scoutpet DPS on non-AE mobs was usually over 1.4-2.1k pre-nerf.  My DPS on AE mobs that I could joust was about 1k, and on multiple AE mobs I was at 6-900.  We'll see what it looks like after this weekend when i raid again after the nerf.</P> <P>All my spells are master, which i'm sure will make more of a 'difference' now that the pet is a pretty mediocre damage source.</P> <P> </P> <P>Zain~</P>

[Xtrik]

<DIV>I solo a lot and see quite a bit of a difference now. I use a scout pet master and between that and the dumbfire damage reductions it take quite a bit longer to kill mobs. For me soloing, the dunbfire retimer changes really hurts. Its now 1 min which seems like an eternity. I think they went a little over board here. If I could chance one thing back it woud be to keep the recast of dumbfires at 45 sec. That way I don't have to sit there for what seems like an eternity every time when I am fighting a little tougher mobs. </DIV>

[Nainitsuj]

I think they nerfed the tank pet's power and health pool again.  Not 100% sure, but he's running out of power a lot sooner than he used to.

[BSbon]

<DIV>well, i haven't tried playing my necro yet. been crafting a lot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> overall i think the changes are fine. we were overpowered and i'll reserve my decision on if we still are or if we are now underpowered until i have a chance to test it out.</DIV>

[ca]

<DIV>spent some time really playing last night, soloed for 2 hours against all types of mobs, grouped in the new forgotten city in adv pack and even tried some tradeskillin for an hour or so. Solo the first thing I noticed is that the scout pet rarely ever commits the deathblow anymore, while the scout makes soloing even con solo mobs quicker and easier than the tank pet does, I find myself actually having to step it up and toss in spells to help, the heal is awsome though, if I toss in all my DOT's and lich proccers before doing my lifetap I can toss the small heal and lifetap to get me and my pet back up to almost 100% and the mob is dead at that point, kinda makes soloing more fun(and I solo A LOT) since now i have to really try instead of tossing a DOT and letting the scout do the killing with a big heal tossed in every four fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank pet is roughly the same though I did notice that power was being used more than before, of course that could easily be paranoia on my part since I am worried about the stealth pet nerfs of the past, I have also talked with and noticed other necros and cojurors falling to the path of unconfirmed paranoia, actually had a fellow necro send me a tell goin nuts about the -15% dps mod on tank, I had to point out that the defensive buff gives a -15% buff and always has before he would calm down and admitted to bitting at shadows right now because of all the "game-breaking nerf" speculation before the patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grouping did annoy me a bit when I ran my parser and saw the dps lower by about 90dps than it usually is, then I noticed that I was still consistently near or at the top of the food chain, plus I was still able to root adds(and with no breaks as long as no one touched them! awsome!) and rez the healer when she forgot to hand out feathers, and pet pull nameds, overall I think I was still a valuable member of the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I unfortunatly only had a chance to attempt one raid (new crab in adv pack) but died very very fast since it didnt go too well, but I will get other chances soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall and most importantly, I think my only annoyances came from getting used to what we did before. If I take a step back and consider what I would think of the class If I just started playing it I would love it. All I can think of is my reaction after LU13 and what they did to my Warden and how nuts I went that they destroyed the class, they didn't, they balanced it and that is what they are doin here, so many necros and conjurors are able to do the same things they could before, just have to make some very small adjustments. I was a bit scared before and now I am not, still havin fun and still being a better class than all the rest. /end</DIV>

[Ratan_Kabidge]

<P>[Solo observations]</P> <P>The largest change in the impact of a soloing Necro has got to be the dumbfire reuse timer. As a soloist (I'm a true writ hoar) most of my targets are fairly quick kills at level 70, so the timer truly hurts. Less damage, ok, I can deal with that. Shorter duration, ok, could deal with that too, since we do effectively have 4 dumbfire lines to choose from (Swarm, Stench, Tide and Dagger). With the increased reuse timers however, I have noticed that they are only useable on one in three fights, not every other one as before (based on an average of a 20 second kill) so using 2 a fight still leaves one fight out with my gnomish thumb up my behind.  My suggestion would therefore be to return the reuse to the 45 seconds they were, and things would be ok. </P> <P>As far as the pets are concerned, that change works for me overall for the most part. I tended to live with the gargoyle out most of the time anyhow, and really only used the scout pet for greys, since the lower health pool tended to increase the healing time required at same tier mobs, and while healing them was certainly a possible option, it removed the possibility of keeping the majority of the DoT spells applied full time. Perhaps the idea in this is to shift our memories back to the old school necro (EQ1) since for us it was often a game of take and give..... The rebalancing of the damage does follow the general idea imho as the mage pet should really be the high damage / group application pet. Scout having many of the attacks from behind should work well with a duo, along with someone that can hold agro, which did increase the damage substantially. </P> <P>There is one thing I noticed instantly that no one seems to have mentinoed before... the changes in the swarm and stench line has removed the pet names of those summoned animations. I enjoyed "zerging" things with pets named "Zerg"... relatively minor thing I realize, but I mention this for a reason. Most people on raids name their pets their own name to list the overall damage in one line, but this might effect the way a parser reads the damage output. I am not confirming or denying this will effect the readouts, but it might be something to consider when observing the large damage changes in those pets. In the past, I have parsed with the main pet, dumbfires and myself solo, and could truly see what each did. Now those two lines of dumbfires add to the damage done by Ratan, not Zerg, so it is a bit more difficult to see the precise damage that particular line does on an individual bases. (Give me my names back SoE :smileytongue: )</P><p>Message Edited by Ratan_Kabidge on <span class=date_text>06-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 PM</span>

[sig]

<P>doing another raid tonight in LABS only were doing named this time.   i have respeced my AA to Intel (they were speced in wisdom) and i will be working with the mage pet all night, ill keep everyone posted on how i think it turns out.</P> <P>i must point out that my mage is only adept1 and im very nervous about using him for this raid since hes so low.</P> <P>i have 30AA points atm and they are speced as... 8 in arcane minion, 6 minion warding, 5 magic leash, 4 intel, 4 wisdom, 2 animist's transference</P> <P>for those that have not seen a drastic change, im kinda amazed i noticed after the first heroic i tried soloing.  maybe your spells are all masters but i assure you i am not that wealthy.</P>

[kenji]

<P>....i didnt play much last night, but i did about 20 parses killing grey 50s solo mob to check dps... on single, my Nightshade w/o AA does abt 400 dps, and Mage about 300-350.... Mage pet on group of 4 solo con hit 500~600 dps....</P> <P>so disappointed to scout nerf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>dumpfire dogs even worse... lose half the dps on full duration... what the XXXX</P> <P>really T3 dps now with all the spells used (with any pet, top of T3 or bottom of T3 - tank) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[ca]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> siges wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>for those that have not seen a drastic change, im kinda amazed i noticed after the first heroic i tried soloing.  maybe your spells are all masters but i assure you i am not that wealthy.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>OK and here is where my first minor <U>MINOR</U> annoyance comes from on these boards (not a flame please don't be offended) First of all I do not have a lot of masters, I have one and it is Control Undeath so it doesnt really compute into DPS, most of my spells are adept 1 and some adept 3, I am a perpetually poor toon cause I have a sick addiction to alts. Secondly NO ONE IN GAME IS INTENDED TO SOLO HEROICS!! sure we CAN and that is easy actually but it is absolutly not intended, in fact I remember them upping the strength and combat abilities of heroics not too long ago to make it harder for people to solo them, even then it was possible but nowhere near worth the time or effort to do so, then they extended the level range for cons so high levels could still get xp for quests and mobs in their tier, all of a sudden it became very easy to solo non-named heroics and many nameds became possible with preperation and tactics. Everytime a class takes a hit on damage, utility,heals ect.. people call it class breaking but in the end it boils down to them losing ability to solo heroics as easily, the necro pages are blessedly clear of these issues and mostly I have seen people say they can still solo heroics, just not as easily, I say we have no right to complain if anything but grey heroics become impossible since SOE has stated many times that these encounters are not intended to be soloed, if you can take on a solo 6-8-10 levels below you and walk away I say count that as icing on the cake not the standard to live by. Many people judge their classes abilities against how well they can solo a heroic and when these kinds of updates come along and hit us upside the head person A says he is still able to solo while person B says he cant at all, we hit the boards calling each other idiots or bad players when the truth is person A is talking about soloing actual solo content while player B is talking about low green heroics, for each of these people this is their normal playstyle but the other persons is not so when they see each others comments they assume the other is talking about their own style. base solo discussions on SOLO mobs.</FONT></P> <P>ALSO the more you talk about soloing heroics on the official boards the more you get other classes irritated, so they scream about how awsome class X is and they demand a nerf, Dev sees the posts, judges which abilities are allowing class X to solo said mob and eventually nerf that skill so please for the sake of our class go to the other site (no names but ST.com you know who you are{great site}) to talk about that aspect.</P> <P>Now this really really is not meant as a flame so Siges please don't think it is, I'm just jumping on an opportunity to say all this.</P> <P>/OffTheSoapBox<BR></P>

[Shailas]

<DIV>I soloed a heroic piece of pepperoni pizza last night.  Nerf my appetite, SOE...I dare ya!</DIV>

[ca]

<P><STRONG>LU #25</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Appetites have been suppressed!</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>    </STRONG>*Necromancer: Duration of appetite reduced to 4.5s with an inherent stun ability added, stun does not effect epic appetites.</P>

[armus5]

One raid down and what did I see. Use to average 1500-1600 now it spikes 1600 and goes as low at 1000. I did hit 1950 or so with undead tide up. This was during a raid.

[sig]

<DIV>ok i dont mean to bash, saying ahead of time</DIV> <DIV>yea ok mayb SoE didnt intend on having classes solo heroics but from experience out of all the games that i have played, if you mix a balanced root along with enough heal power (lifetap for instance) you can solo anything (that has no ranged attack of course) heh i have solo'ed yellow con'ed heroics because of this.  yet i really dont care if were suppose to be able to kill them or not, its how us as players judge how powerful our toons are. also if you notice on what i said "the first heroic i TRIED to solo" yea because i died from that first mob rofl.  mayb i should have added that detail would have saved you a long time writing that up,  thats my fault</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i think you got a little off subject of what my post was about, and actually i could really care less about soloing anything since im ALWAYS in a group or raid senario.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> fact of the matter is we got a much bigger nerf then what was planned.  the dumbfire pets are the biggest problem, since they took off the inital stats and they took away the group/raid buffs that effect them.  take group proc's for instance.  now that buffs no longer effect these pets your gonna do a whole lot less damage in groups.  SoE's calculations of the nerfs are correct, but take into consideration of what buffs a necro really has.  meaning if you only solo, you wont see much of a differance at all.  enough of this and on to my discoverys with the mage pet</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mage pet, yes it does waaay more damage then the scout now  with the set up i had i could hit 700 DPS preaty easy, only problem with the mage pet is it has its normal cast, move,cast,move uh oh aoe killed him problem.  a "hold" command would be nice for them they also benefit the group alot better with its constant regeneration from their spells.  i will more then likely invest money into getting an adept3 or master of this spell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for future referance flame me all you want, i just hope you can take it in return, enough said its late im going to bed, i hope some of this info will help newb's when deciding on what class to pick with the current update.</DIV>

[matyas]

<P>The thing I find funniest about all of this talk is that in the end me and another necro ended up on the top of the dps list in a Labs raid with a conj mixed in there too. Even with all the changes that were made it did not break our class or hurt our class. We are still the necro kings we were before, they just knocked us down from our god status that we had. I am fine with the changes since now other t1 dps classes can try to top me and come a little closer. It will make them work a little harder instead of sitting back and saying "well since I know I cant beat him I might as well just sluff off".</P> <P> </P> <P>Corinthius 70 Nec Nektulos</P>

[Xebars]

I do the parsing for my guild, on raids the last couple nights the summoners were below where they were pre-LU24, but still consistantly top-5.  Depending on target they were around 1100-1600 DPS, usually right behind the Wizards, Warlocks and Assassins (again, depending on target).  I don't include large-group parses since, well, they're misleading.  We'll be hearing the Warlocks need a nerf for their 3k DPS on groups of 5+ <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Summoners were about on par with our Brigands and Swashies, maybe a smidge above the rogues.  That seems reasonable to me.<div></div>

[bluegod]

<blockquote><hr>Xtriker wrote:<P>Ouch .. that's going to hert !</P><P>My master Shadow pet was my favorite pet. I wounder if I can get a refund for it ? Or be able to exchange it for a different pet. (Lot of luck) :smileyindifferent:</P>No, you can only exchange pets if they die within the first 30 days and you have a receipt. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by bluegod on <span class=date_text>06-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

[Tharangus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bluegod wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xtriker wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Ouch .. that's going to hert !</P><BR> <P>My master Shadow pet was my favorite pet. I wounder if I can get a refund for it ? Or be able to exchange it for a different pet. (Lot of luck) :smileyindifferent:</P><BR><BR>No, you can only exchange pets if they die within the first 30 days... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>But... our pets are already dead... bwahahaha!!

[bluegod]

<blockquote><hr>Tharangus wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>bluegod wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Xtriker wrote:<BR><BR><P>Ouch .. that's going to hert !</P><BR><P>My master Shadow pet was my favorite pet. I wounder if I can get a refund for it ? Or be able to exchange it for a different pet. (Lot of luck) :smileyindifferent:</P><BR><BR>No, you can only exchange pets if they die within the first 30 days... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>But... our pets are already dead... bwahahaha!!<hr></blockquote>No, no. they're just, uh... resting... or um, stunned... or pining for the fjords

[Timzil]

<DIV>Dangit guys. I came here to read some hope. Thought I'd betray my 70 Conj and become a useable class like a Necro. Sounds like you got your investment stolen by SOE also though. Man, feels like I'm casting level 55 in a level 70 world. Blows. Well anyway, thanks for saving me the bother of betraying and good luck.</DIV>

[Bergmeister]

Not a problem Timzilla.  Happy to make you feel a bit better.  lol.  At least you probably don't have a 70 troubador or guardian you could turn to for fun since the necro is now nerfed to.  I rule.  No one knows how to pick out a toon for nerfing like me.  I'm also availble for investment strategies.  Dont buy anything made by Sony ever again.  Enjoy your time on line with your friends, its the only thing you can count on in this game. Whiskie, 70 Necro Emiack, 70 Guardian Amaestro, 70 Troubador <div></div>

[Timzil]

<DIV>Yeh well, my other character actually is a 70 Guardian, and I had a EQ1 Magician before SOE turned those into simple vending machines and CoH buttons. I know loss of time invested well. I just wish SOE knew their players half as well as they think they know their game. We build persistant groups around class abilities to perform specific tasks and to compliment other classes in the group. When they senselessly and severely nerf one class, not only is that players patronage to SOE betrayed, but all those that relied on him in thier regular group are betrayed as well. I don't think I could ever be that thoughtless in anything I do.</DIV>

[Bergmeister]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].. Sucks to be us.  Today i didnt have it in me to start leveling another toon so I decided to mow my grass and edge the driveway.  It was fun and I actually have a sence of accomplishing something.  <div></div>

[Catodon]

Did my first lab raid today after lu24, and to be honest I'm not upset at all about the damage reduction.I was (still) between 800-1000 dps on nearly every named fight, a bit higher on the encounters where I could use undead tide effectively. This is with the fighter pet + sta line final in a group that was not optimized for melee dps, and without a brigand.  On most named fights I was still significantly above the wizards and predators present.  The most noticeable reduction for me was short trash mob fights (dps average around 600) where the recast increase for swarm pets was preventing me from using them effectively.Some of the aoe attacks that were guaranteed to kill swarm pets before lu24 were being resisted or dodged by both ghastly and the pigs, so the reduction in their output was mitigated a bit since they didn't always get killed by the aoes. Undead tide rawks hard now if you get a good situation for it... trash mob corpses are staying around much longer and the increased radius means more opportunities to get a bunch of skellies to pop.  In one named fight (Doomwright Vakrizt) where i used this spell on a 50% mob, getting  only 30 seconds out of it...about 10 skellies,  60k dmg on a single target, 22k just from the skelly autoattack...  (Nearly 1/3 of my total damage for that fight.) My only complaint is the business of removing our ability to name swarm pets, much harder to keep track of things in the parse later.   Fix the mage pet behavior and the general pet pathing nonsense and I would be a happy camper at this point.Other folks' mileage may vary, of course. (Conjurers were certainly hit a fair bit harder than us necromancers, none of those present on this raid were matching me in dps.)  <div></div>

[Errar]

<P>Many people in here have dealt with the Necro nerf from the point of solo.  Siges tapped on the true nerf...the raiding necro.  I never openly tried to get a group (though I did group somewhat) to lvl 60, but now I am mostly a raiding Necro.  All my spells are Adept 3 except for a few:  Master Dreadnought and Master Pet offensive and defensive buffs, Master Blighted Horde.</P> <P>Pre LU24 update parsers indicated that, with my pets (scout, blighted horde - master, stench) I would average around 950 DPS.  If you add the Undead Tide (Master 1) I would normally do somewhere around 1050-1100 (until I died from drawing too much agro).  Post LU24, same fights, same pet set-up, same spells, same parsers, I am only averaging around 730 DPS (not counting undead tide as I have not had a chance to use that enough yet to comment).  This comes out to approximately a 23% reduction in overall raid effectiveness.  Parsers now list Brigand/Monk, Wizard/Warlock, Summoner, Necromancer as DPS ratings.  Our scout/ranger has been on vacation lately, but should rank in the Brigand/Monk area when he returns.  Prior to LU24, the list looked more like  Brigand, Necromancer, Ranger/Summoner, Monk.  We moved down several notches in the DPS ranking during the raids I have been on since LU24.</P> <P>I do not have a real issue with the nerf to the scout pet.  This is not meant as a put down to tank classes, but it was the rare tank who could keep agro off my scout pet with 57% haste and hitting for 500-2200 dmg.  The kill shot to the Necro class, in my humble opinion, comes in the dumbfire pets.  The extended recast timer really hurts the raiding necro.  As mentioned in one of the other posts, the scout and dumbfire pets die FAR TOO EASILY from AoEs and adding an additionall 15 seconds before we can get our dumbfire pets back in the game really hurts.</P> <P>Continuing to look at where LU24 hurts, lets look at Achievement points (AP cause SOE hates it when we call them AA).  One of our APs reduces the hate gained by the scout pet.  I was excited when I got this (see previous paragraph), but I do not find this to be of any use now.  To me this equates to that AP line becoming less useful or if you wish to continue the line, a waste of 4 APs.  Count how many hours it takes for you to get 4 APs and your monthly cost to play and you can transfer the LU24 to real dollars (sorry not gonna do all that math).</P> <P>If you don't agree with my thoughts, just pardon the ramblings of an old lady.</P> <P>Electri Cal'Diva, Queen of Hearts</P>

[Nainitsuj]

<DIV>That's odd.  Even after the nerf, I didn't drop down quite as badly as you did.  I went from 1st on the list to 3rd.  And some of my spells are the T6 version (I hate the flaming pigs).  A lot of my spells are adept 1.  And I always beat the monks in the parse.</DIV>

[Jai1]

I don't think this is that bad of a nerf.   I don't think it affects solo/group damage that much and on last nights raid parse of Labs,  both of us necros still fell on top of the parses.  We are not leaps above those who fall in behind us but we are still on top by a few dps or a couple thousands worth of damage.  I used the scout pet mostly.

[Gargamel]

<div>Yeah you idiots.If you were ANYWHERE near as godlike as Zald, you would realize that Necro's need a further half dozen nerfs... AT LEAST.  And even then he could probably solo a lvl 74^^^ heroic named with no armor... you simply can't stop Zald.</div>

[Sea]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nainitsuj wrote:<BR> <DIV>That's odd.  Even after the nerf, I didn't drop down quite as badly as you did.  I went from 1st on the list to 3rd.  And some of my spells are the T6 version (I hate the flaming pigs).  A lot of my spells are adept 1.  And I always beat the monks in the parse.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then you are raiding with some ppl gimped out with App 2 spells or something. Cause there is no way to consistantly beat Wiz/Warlock, Ranger, Brigand now DPS wise. Well unless the ranger goes afk or something. I am T7 mastered out with decent gear, and I was lucky to get above 6th or 7th on the parse rankings since LU 24. I used to rule the parse with the conjs in guild now we struggle to stay in the top 10..

[Wulgry]

I am ok with the PvE dps nerf.I am pretty ok with the solo nerf.I am hating the PvP nerfs.Specifically:I hated the fear nerf that attached a snare to it, just not as fun anymore.I don't like the recast nerfs on control spells.Scout pet nerf hurts a bit but it's mostly the control spells getting nerfed that are proving to be challenging, as a cloth wearer.<div></div>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seath wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nainitsuj wrote:<BR> <DIV>That's odd.  Even after the nerf, I didn't drop down quite as badly as you did.  I went from 1st on the list to 3rd.  And some of my spells are the T6 version (I hate the flaming pigs).  A lot of my spells are adept 1.  And I always beat the monks in the parse.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then you are raiding with some ppl gimped out with App 2 spells or something. Cause there is no way to consistantly beat Wiz/Warlock, Ranger, Brigand now DPS wise. Well unless the ranger goes afk or something. I am T7 mastered out with decent gear, and I was lucky to get above 6th or 7th on the parse rankings since LU 24. I used to rule the parse with the conjs in guild now we struggle to stay in the top 10..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe I just don't suck as bad as you seem to....</P> <P>Might be an option eh?</P>

[Sea]

<P>Well mabey once you move up to T7 spells we can have the conversation about "how bad I suck". Oh and try upgrading those Adept 1's. Cause you are surely not in a raiding guild equiped with spells like that, and the point I was making was about raiding, not a nest group run...</P> <P> </P> <P>Back to the point after LU 24 whats the use of being a summoner ( I know they changed it so there are no summoners now so read has Necro / Conj.) class, if scouts can out damage us, debuff mobs better, and wear medium armor...</P>

[Nainitsuj]

<DIV>1 spell because I hate the look of flaming pigs.  The dogs are M1 and do more damage than the Adept 3 pigs.  The adept 1 spells are the heals, the pet power tap, heart, root, stun, fear and snare.  The rest are masters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't beat a monk on a parse after LU 24.  Their auto attack was stealth nerfed.  Do you even raid?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yah.  It's a raid guild.  When you finally make it in to Death Toll, we'll talk. </DIV>

[Tokam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nainitsuj wrote:<BR> <DIV>1 spell because I hate the look of flaming pigs.  The dogs are M1 and do more damage than the Adept 3 pigs.  The adept 1 spells are the heals, the pet power tap, heart, root, stun, fear and snare.  The rest are masters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't beat a monk on a parse after LU 24.  Their auto attack was stealth nerfed.  Do you even raid?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yah.  It's a raid guild.  When you finally make it in to Death Toll, we'll talk. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh - I was lucky (or dumb?) enough to pick up the m1 heart, now everyone has a /em macro asking for one mid fight <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Have to say Im not seeing our monks out dps me. I get beaten by assassins consistently, rangers when they have the right spells availabe (silly 15 min timers...) and brigands in short fights. Our sorcs seem to yo yo all over the place but I think that if you can put out a nice steady 1.3k dps on every x4 then you still have a place on a raid. I guess the trick will be getting a nice steady 1.5 - 1.6k dps on every x4....</P>