Necros in my eyes

[mr0be]

We are DPS.Our pet tanks Suck ( in fact some necros tank better then their pets, and hold much better aggroe)Our AA lines are laughable (especially in pvp)Our pet offensive/defensive buffs blowNo quick cast stun (or in conjurors hands AOE stifle + good damage)The only utility we offer are Slow mana over time hearts that eat health and have an annoyingly long recast (both client and caster side)Our heals are dampered down to where we cannot counter any other classes damage 1:5So someone remind me why SoE is removing the one positive i can currently see about our class?<div></div>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><div>and what exactly are they removing?</div><p>Message Edited by Suraklin on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:12 AM</span></p>

[mr0be]

They impose that since we can keep dps flowing longer then any other class that we are "tier 1 dps" even though wizzys obviously out dps us on short encounters. so we are having nerf's across all boards. spells, pets, everything.<div></div>

[Jal]

They arent nerfing anything. They are monitoring us now our scout pets are using the correct arts and after that if we need balancing then they will do it. Personally id rather take a hit in dps and get our tanks pets actually tanking well as lately mine barely holds agro and when it does it dies very fast.

[mr0be]

<div></div>No, if you read the notes necros are being considered Tier 1 DPS when we arnt. I dont know if i lvled 1-49 differently then you guys, but there was no way to put out as much dps as any other DPS class in short duration fights, with lich we can sorta get our way around it by casting quick spells to put out 150-300 dmg in a burst. But as is we are going to be scaled down to tier2 dps based on our ability to "long duration fight" We do not deserve to be rescaled. we are exactly what we are. we dont nuke for 5k damage. we dont backstab for 15k dmg. we put on lots of little dots and a few pathetic lifetaps while our pets hammer away.an example.Wizards = master of short duration burst dpsWarlocks = Master of multimob encounters and AOE dmgNecromancers = Long duration mastersnone of the above mages can out dps each other in their own right, just different situations = different results.<div></div><p>Message Edited by mr0be00 on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:22 AM</span></p>

[Jal]

<blockquote><hr>mr0be00 wrote:<div></div>No, if you read the notes necros are being considered Tier 1 DPS when we arnt. I dont know if i lvled 1-49 differently then you guys, but there was no way to put out as much dps as any other DPS class in short duration fights, with lich we can sorta get our way around it by casting quick spells to put out 150-300 dmg in a burst. But as is we are going to be scaled down to tier2 dps based on our ability to "long duration fight" We do not deserve to be rescaled. we are exactly what we are. we dont nuke for 5k damage. we dont backstab for 15k dmg. we put on lots of little dots and a few pathetic lifetaps while our pets hammer away.an example.Wizards = master of short duration burst dpsWarlocks = Master of multimob encounters and AOE dmgNecromancers = Long duration mastersnone of the above mages can out dps each other in their own right, just different situations = different results.<div></div><p>Message Edited by mr0be00 on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:22 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The argument isnt about short/long duration fights as such its just a general thing that necro + mage/scout pet is a force to be reckoned with when grouped/raiding. Our solo ability is fine apart from our tank pet being pretty awful lately so if we take a hit it will be purely in the effectiveness of our damage pets as this is where the imbalance if there is any found by SOE will lie.In groups when i was grinding i was forever coming out on top whenever someone decided to spam their dps parser program in chat after a fight, in groups when necros can go all out (with a good tank) we can be very very effective with two sets of swarm pets our dots debuffs and life tap then on top of that our regular damage pet. Wizards have high damage but quite long cast time spells so their dps evens out over time as they are not contantly firing off their big nukes but switching between larger nukes and dot style attacks plus they dont have such good power management skills as us thus either need to cast slower or take time out to regen.Its swings and roundabouts and you could argue till we are blue in the face but any change to the necro class will come if needed due to SOE examining their data and finding an imblance its then up to us to fine tune this through testing and feedback.

[Yirabeth]

I agree that in short term situations I am not top tier, I hit 2nd usually, sometimes 3rd, in dps parsed during fights. I don't raid --- I hope SOE takes this into account. Seems they generally tend to overbalance though, so I'm not holding my breath.What I agree MORE with is I'd happily settle for MUCH less dps if they would  just FIX MY TANK! He's pathetic. His aggro is pathetic, his HP is pathetic, his ability to take a hit is pathetic. Fix my tank, and I'll swallow the rest with good will.~Yira<div></div>

[Soman]

<div></div><p>Last night on a raid my Necro parsed out at over 1600dps and earned the rebuke and whining from the other Tier 1 dps classes.</p><p>Considering this was a really long fight on a named in temple of scale and be the end of the battle most other classes were out of power.</p><p>I use Arch Lich M1. My raid pet of choice is Master 1 Mage pet live the whole fight and successful chain cast all Dots and Nukes and used Undead Tide (M1). Most of my other spells are Adept 3 but that did not seem to matter to folks.</p><p>Also this was one fight over the whole night and this one exception is what everyone wants to focus on exclusively.</p><p>Should we start trolling the GAR/Assasin/Wizard/insert class board and whine everytime they out perform us on a single battle.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<div>I am currently level 52, and my Scout pet all by itself parses in the same ballpark as most Tier 2 DPS and some lower Tier 1 on some encounters. Add in my DPS and I am right up there with any Tier 1 on almost every fight longer than 10 seconds or so. Under that, the burst DPS classes usually top me pretty handily. And I should note that this is grouping, not raiding.</div><div> </div><div>This can't be intended, as we are "supposedly" Tier 2 total. I have been expecting this ever since they hit Rangers. Actually, even before that. I won't really like it, but I saw it coming a long time ago.</div>

[cfteagu]

<div></div><p>to the OP: Our tank pets don't mitigate well, but they also have 10 times the hp that the necro does, so while the pet does not tank efficiently, it does in fact tank ok.  If you want the pet to tank heroics, however, it will be only able to handle low greens, and not all of them (scout mobs tend to hit too hard, and named scout mobs are crazy)</p><p>As for our damage tier.  I'm not convinced we stink.  But neither am i convinved we are T1.    Maybe in raids, where the fights are long (good for our style) and theres no AE, and where the raid gives us & pet lots of buffs and debuffs the mob a lot, then we can do really high danage.  But so could ANY class with lots of buffs, on a heavily debuffed mob.</p><p>My necro is 64 atm.  I have an AD3 lvl 60 scout pet.   In SoS, I parse under the scouts.  I think they were assassins, but Im not really sure.  I was like 80% of the scout damage, and the pally was about 60% of the scouts damage.  It was a little hard to tell because the parser used gave separate numbers for me and for pet, and I had to add them in my head.</p><p>Later I was in a Palace group, where the mobs were mostly ornage to me.  I was getting a lot of resists, so most of my dps was coming from the pet.  I didn't have a parse there, but I can tell you I was not doing impressive numbers there.</p><p>If you compare us to rangers, at the moment, then I think we are doing more than they are.  But honestly, I think rangers are broken at the moment, and they need to be improved back to T1.</p><p>Sorcs, I don't know.  I haven't had a sorc in group with a parser in about 10 lvls, so my only numbers are from Cyclops groups pre-kos.  There I was about the same as the sorc.  Arguably, that means I was T1.  But I would say that really means the sorc was doing T2 damage becasue the cyclops were dying too fast for him to be at full effectiveness.</p><p>Or maybe sorcs also need a boost to be higher up.  I don't have enough numbers.</p><p>What I really don't want to see, is the devs look at what happens when 50 raid buffs come togehter to boost our dps, and base a nerf solely on that.  They did that to rangers, and look at them now.  Because by ignoring the normal, exp group situation, SOE went way farther than they needed to, and I really do not want that to happen to us.</p><p>Way back when (pre LU13) necros were pretty weak in the 20s and low 30s, and didn't really get rolling til the mid 30s.   Having preserved then, mostly solo because at the time I was only half the dps of other dps classes, and therefore not wanted in groups, I admit I didnt like it.  At least then there was hope for 30+...  if they nerf us back to the stone age, I don't know what I would do.</p><p> </p>

[cfteagu]

<div></div><p>Somanow, that necro in your raid, did he have all masters?   And was 1600 dps enough to put him at the top of the raid dps, or was that lower than the rest of the raid?  (probably near the top, but it should be compared in context).</p><p>The other thing I don't want to see SOE do is to nerf us based on Master pets and Master nukes and Master lich.  It's harder to get t7 rares than it was in T6, so I don't think SOE should even balance around AD3 spells, like they did for T6.    (Either they need to make T7 rares a bit easier to harvest or they need to lower the balance to AD1)</p>

[Frud]

<div></div><div>I was in with a group and using my scout-class pet (Adept III Nightshade) and someone was running a parser.  My pet kept coming out on top - sometimes doubling the amount of dps compared to the next in line (which was usually me).  And pets suck?</div><div> </div><div>I even saw my pet get agro in a raid of three groups vs an epic Drakota...three times.   What does that tell you?  It is possible, I would admit, that the scout class pets may need toning down a bit.</div><div> </div><div>Clavicle - 61st Necro on MM</div>

[Soman]

<div></div>The Necro I know quite well because he is me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />1600 DPS was generated once and it is the largest outburst I ever had. One most raids I average 850-1100 DPS as an average.Grim Heretic Master 1All pet buffs adept 3Dumbfires = Blighted Horde Master 1, Ghastly Zombie Adept 3, Undead Tide Master 1Deathly Coil Adept 3Summon Bats App 4Abate Life Master 2Torrential Pestilence Adept 1In comparisons to other classes I out damaged them quite significantly. I have screen shot of parse but do not know how to post it within these forums.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Somanow on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:55 PM</span></p>

[mr0be]

Master scout cannot out aggroe a guardian of same spell lvl. Your pet was getting rampaged on.and to the guy with 1600 dps. I would think that 1600 dps might be logical in the perfect fight for us. much like 1600 dps is quite probabl for a warlock in the perfect scenario for him, or the wizzy. or the scout. or the whatever other dps class. Each class is situational. necros are no jack of all trades. we are a terrible class beyond our dps. Its even more evident on a PvP server. If our DPS was lowered we would fall even further from the top of the pvp chain post-50 as is we cannot beat any tank or scout class very easily. even with the jump. Wana know why? because we are terrible at mitigation. we are terrible at short duration fights. We are terrible at managing unwanted PvP.SoE gave necros rez and "modulating rods" and called us utility pet class. We are nothing without a DPS. if you look at most of the other classes, they are heavily debuffing ontop of regular DPS, their spells contain both debuff and dmg. necros do not. We are dots and taps and pets.I dont care how jealous people are because necros are designed to do well against raid content. Half of our spells are designed for other classes but given to ours for some reason. we are the worst class at managing aggroe, so why are we given spells that are only useful after people die? You either have to have terrible spells, or never go all out to even make it to a point where Undead tide is worth the 15 minute timer. Rez is stupid when your one of the few DPS classes with no aggroe reducer and an FD which basically just stops you from dying untill you stand back up to help. Yes you can stay alive and manage aggroe quite well on your own, but then your not "tier 1 dps"Why does pet transfer aggroe when it dies? Does thorns transfer aggroe to the fury? if my scout starts to take damage i have to feign death immediately just to save myself some repair bills, even if i havnt casted a single spell.Face it, necro is all out dps, nothing else. If were meant to be Tier2 dps then give us something worth being tier2 dps. Like AA's that dont blow.<div></div>