Undying Dreadnaught Master 1 - why use it?

[Errie_Tholluxe]

 Now this may come across as a bit of a gripe, but ...I have the master 1 tank. Master 1 defensive stance. Master 1 Rending, Adept III Insignia. With Adept IV (yeah adept IV, no longer a master lvl) Minions Barrier AND Minions Uproar, this pet has 2240 Mitigation, low dps, 33.6% avoidance and 14k hp's . Now my Adept III Nightshade by comparison has decent dps 2240 mitigation, 36.9% avoidance and 8k hp's. My reasoning for asking the question is, with its low dps, low haste and low damage output (see haste) it gets EATEN ...heck it seems to get eaten faster now than when I was struggling for 70. The Nightshade gets eaten too mind you, but before she is, she's walloped the heck out of the mob.  This is an adept III vs a Master I, with 8 points in Barrier and Uproar. Does this sound right to you all? Is there a way we can bump up its mitigation beyond this? Does something in my stats besides resists have anything to do with this? I am pretty disappointed actually, to have to transfer life to my tank pet when fighting blues because its getting its [Removed for Content] handed to it <span>:smileysad: and would expect a bit more than just a few extra hp's to be a tank. </span><div></div>

[Ryus]

<p>I would use it because Undying Dreadnaught sounds cool, hehe</p><p>Seriously, the avoidance isn't that much higher, I would aim to guess that you tank pet takes longer to get "eaten" than your scout pet, after all it has 6k more hp. You can't really compare the two pets, one is meant for tanking and the other is more for groups. Yah, your scout pet does more damage, but can it taunt as well? </p><p>Prehaps a change of tatics is in order? I'm not sure how you string your abilities, or what kind of monsters you are fighting, it could make a big difference. I'm only talking at of what knowledge I have; I'm not level 70, but I can still throw in a little advice.</p><p> </p>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

Well on the surface it would seem that the tank pet would last a bit longer, but actually in practice (since i wrote the above was testing it a bit) anything even or yellow non heroic, rogue kills em faster and easier. ^ up, same thing. ^^ the tank requires less healing but the fight is longer. ^^ mobs blue and greens was what i used for testing as white and yellows have a tendency to get a bit strained to test using same abilities etc. heroic greens and blues (^^^ greens, ^^ x2 group heroics) pet tank lasts a bit longer, but again, fight takes twice as long.What you say about the rogue not getting taunts is true, but if you actually let it get a few arts in first, and avoid dd spells, the dps holds agro much like a scout class would. Couple that with roots, stuns and a fear every now and again, and getting agro becomes a non sequitor.General order of attack is to pet, debuff, dot dot , fear, dot, life transfer, stun, dd, root, rinse repeat. Tight quarters, fear/root dd stun works good too.<div></div>

[Yunga_511]

<div>really when u upgrade a pet to master, your only upgradeing the Skills/spells it gets, so Adept 3 Nightshade would get adept 3 skills and master 1 nightshade would get master 1 skills...and so on, but Very good reason for using master pet tank is cause he/she (whatever takes your fancy) taunts for more cause he/she has master 1 taunts and stuff.....</div>

[Xalmat]

Undying Dreadnought gets an HP increase going from Adept 3 to Master 1. In addition, its combat arts are significantly more effective than Adept 3.

[bluejello]

but if a mob dies sooner it does less damage<div></div>

[kenji]

<div></div><div>well...i have been using rogue pet for all situation... basically all pets no mitigation, means all pets taking same dmg, the difference between Tank and Rogue is... almost double hp, but almost 1:4 dps.... and rogue can take a mob down way faster than my tank pet... and due to more dmg it can do, i dun need to care about Taunt from pet.... my tank pet's aoe taunt being nerfed anyways, it wouldnt hold mobs off me from 1 single AOE....why bother using Tank? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Anim]

With the last few LU's, SOE really has illegitimized the tank pet.  Our pets are meant to mimic the classes in-game that we are able to choose to play.  We get an Assassin Pet, a Warlock Pet, and a "Tank Pet".  The first 2 behave very similarly to their PC couterparts, but when you take the tank pet in mind, it falls seriously short.  When you invite a Guardian or Paladin, Berserker, etc etc to your group.  You are getting more than just more HP for the MOB to eat, you are getting more hp, more mitigation, and spells designed to keep the mobs attention.  Our "Tank Pet" only gets the HP.  This is why my Dreadnaught never sees the light of day.  I use M1 Grim Heretic, with INT aa line.  Or i use scout depending on situation.<div></div>

[Xalmat]

Pets are never meant to replace player tanks. In the words of the dev team, tank pets are meant to be roughly equivalent to a player scout, in terms of holding aggro and tanking ability.

[Ryus]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Using a scout pet does increase the damage output, but IMHO it doesn't hold hate as well as the tank in a defensive stance. If the information about the mitigation is ture, that means all pets take the same damage and if the information provide is true about the avoidance, then the hp of each give pet is going to go down about at the same give rate. </div><div> </div><div>I don't have a DPS caculator (I don't trust 3rd party software) , but my guess would be that the scout pet does not have a 1:4 advantage for DPS on the tank pet.  Regardless, the scout pet WILL kill faster than the tank pet, that is a given. However, your scouts HP bar is going to go down a lot faster than a tanks pet. What I need to find out is if the scouts pet ability to deal more DPS is significant enough to offset it's lack of HP, therefore decreasing down time or if the tank pet inherent high HP, will decrease the amount of downtime. My assumpton is that a pet regenerates HP by a % of it's life not a HP value like PC characters (Only based off play experience, will try to prove).</div><div> </div><div>I'm going to do an experiment to prove a point, if I'm wrong at least I will know I'm truly wrong.</div><div> </div><div><em><u>Experiment</u></em></div><div> </div><div>Things to prove:</div><ul><li>Is downtime greater with a scout pet or a tank pet?</li><li>do pets regenerate based off a percent or a number value?</li><li>What is the DPS of tank and scout pet</li><li>Which gets "eaten" faster :smileyvery-happy:</li></ul><div> </div><div>Things to disprove</div><p> </p><ul><li>Scout pets have ~1:4 damage ratio over tanks</li></ul><div> </div><div>Facts:</div><div> </div><ul><li>The Tank pet (Master 1) compared to the scout pet (Adept 3) has 57.14% more Hit Points and a taunt</li><li>The scout pet has better DPS (but by how much?)</li><li>The tank pet (M1)has 33.6% avoidance, while the scout (AD3) has 36.9%</li></ul><div>Opinions (impossible to disprove or to prove)</div><div> </div><ul><li>The scout pet has better A.I. than the pet tank</li><li>scout pet make better tanks (This is an opinion)</li></ul><p>Constants: both pets will recieve the same buffs, both pets will fight the same monster, both pets are the same level, both pets will recieve no help from the caster (me), both pets are Adept 1's</p><p>Variables: scout pet will be used, then a fighter pet </p><p>Comparing: Hit points loss in one minute, damage dealt in one minute ( I have a stopwatch dont worry) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</p><p>I will be doing this experiment three times to get a good feel for what is happening to each pet. I hate blind facts from players, lets actually prove this thing. Although, I'm happy the OP took the time to do a few experiments; I want to do some hard numbers. This is the best way to go about it, I will post the results.</p><p>Message Edited by Ryushi on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:00 AM</span></p>

[Nainitsuj]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:Pets are never meant to replace player tanks. In the words of the dev team, tank pets are meant to be roughly equivalent to a player scout, in terms of holding aggro and tanking ability.<hr></blockquote>But we all know that's not the case.

[Errie_Tholluxe]

You may want to do a Possess Minion before ya start your experiments, as the avoidance bumps are based off Minions Barrier AA at 8 points in, unless of course you have that AA maxed out. My hope was that the extra avoidance would give the tank a bit more lifespan, but it actually seems lessened. I havent had a chance to do something like just take on single Aviaks in BS yet, to watch the loss with and without the buff, but it sure seems to DROP the avoidance rather than increase it <span>:smileymad:</span>, will let ya know when I get a chance this week.<div></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:Pets are never meant to replace player tanks. In the words of the dev team, tank pets are meant to be roughly equivalent to a player scout, in terms of holding aggro and tanking ability.<hr></blockquote>But we all know that's not the case.<hr></blockquote><p>Whats not the case?  Kinda cryptic there.</p><p>Are you saying you think our pets ARE the equivalent of a real tank?</p><p>If so, speak to the lvl 70 warden I duo with and ask him who he would rahter have tanking, a real tank, or my pet.</p><p>A lvl 70 scout even has more avoidance and mit than our tank pets in full defensive mode so what Xalmat said is about right.</p>

[Nainitsuj]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:Pets are never meant to replace player tanks. In the words of the dev team, tank pets are meant to be roughly equivalent to a player scout, in terms of holding aggro and tanking ability.<hr></blockquote>But we all know that's not the case.<hr></blockquote><p>Whats not the case?  Kinda cryptic there.</p><p>Are you saying you think our pets ARE the equivalent of a real tank?</p><p>If so, speak to the lvl 70 warden I duo with and ask him who he would rahter have tanking, a real tank, or my pet.</p><p>A lvl 70 scout even has more avoidance and mit than our tank pets in full defensive mode so what Xalmat said is about right.</p><hr></blockquote><p>My lvl 65 defiler g/f prefers my tank pet over the MT (guardian) of our guild.  To each their own.  Of course when it comes to defilers and tanks, they want someone who can keep agro.  Nothing does that better than my pet.</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:Pets are never meant to replace player tanks. In the words of the dev team, tank pets are meant to be roughly equivalent to a player scout, in terms of holding aggro and tanking ability.<hr></blockquote>But we all know that's not the case.<hr></blockquote><p>Whats not the case?  Kinda cryptic there.</p><p>Are you saying you think our pets ARE the equivalent of a real tank?</p><p>If so, speak to the lvl 70 warden I duo with and ask him who he would rahter have tanking, a real tank, or my pet.</p><p>A lvl 70 scout even has more avoidance and mit than our tank pets in full defensive mode so what Xalmat said is about right.</p><hr></blockquote><p>My lvl 65 defiler g/f prefers my tank pet over the MT (guardian) of our guild.  To each their own.  Of course when it comes to defilers and tanks, they want someone who can keep agro.  Nothing does that better than my pet.</p><hr></blockquote><p>To each their own I guess, but maybe ask your guild tanks to upgrade their taunts and use them.  Guardians are not usually the best group tanks per say because of the agro, so that could be an issue.</p><p>Mitigation wise, their is no competition with a good real tank vs our tank pets....ours get eaten alive because of no mit as opposed to a player tank class with decent gear.</p><p>No offense, but I hate when I see people making statements like this.  It perpetuates the myth that our tank pets are better than real player tanks who know their job, and that is not the case even remotely.</p>

[prince_sd]

<div></div>LoL equivalent ? pet tanks are not even close to real tanks. Not that i am complaining, they are what they should be .. pets.My healer friends hate my tank pet. Why ? because pets don't have mitigation and have more hp to compensate. But the heals do not change. So the pet gets hit harder and the heals are less effective.No way are they even close to real tanks.Previously, their taunts were as good as a real tank. But its been nerfed now. My tank can't keep aggro off even me now. Its still manageable but nothing close to real tanks.<p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:39 PM</span></p>

[Ryus]

<div></div><div>This thread isn't about if our tank pets are better or equal to a real player tank. I think the OP was just trying to insinuate that a scout pet is better for soloing than a tank pet. I don't know how we derailed the orginal conversion, but a PC tank should always be better than a pet tank, taunts and mitigation wise.</div>

[Darkglow]

<div></div>My suggestion is get uber and tank yourself with scout pet assisting you.

[Ruwin]

<div></div><p>Tank pet needs to be fixed plain and simple. The problem, as far as the almighty SOE gods are concerned, is they are functioning as intended. The reason this whole thing came about is they (SOE) hear some other classes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about our pets and how over powered we are and then they nerf us.</p><p>I have never gone to another class forum to say they are over powered and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed that they needed to be nerfed.....not ever!!! So I can not understand how some people have so much time on their pathetic hands that they feel it neccessary to come to the necro forums and whine about our class. Please stay on your own forums and try to make a difference to your own class if you feel it is not as l33t as it should be.</p><p>Let us all just pray to god that SOE doesnt screw up this game like they did SWG.</p><p> </p>

[Ryus]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>I hope you are not refering to me, hehe.</div><div> </div><div>If so let me explain:</div><div>I pay for the game; I'm entitled to post where ever I want. I never said the Necromancer's line of pet tanks are awesome or prefect the way they are; I'm just trying to do an experiment to see what is more effective. It does not prove that the pet tanks are overpowered or underpowered.</div><div> </div><div>I think people jump to conclusions when they post things such as: "The scout pet is clearly better than the tank pet. " (That is an opinion) I just want to prove that opinion is wrong, so others don't believe that and spread baseless rumors. Call it a bad habit from college, in your term papers the professors are really picky about that kind of thing. If you are in college, you know that as well as I do. Besides there is nothing wrong with being enlightened, is there?</div><div> </div><div>If not, I'm sorry you had to hear that, just pretend I didn't say it :smileysurprised:</div><div> </div><div>I don't want the game to be "screwed over" either. However, if it ever gets to the point where it is no longer fun for me to play I will just cancel and write a formal letter to SoE stating why. Sure.. it is not productive, but at least they know why I quit.</div><div> </div><div>This is a place for feedback, a place to relax, and a place to discuss constructive thing about classes. If I wanted to hear people whine and complain, I would go to work, or listen to my friend, hehe. </div><div> </div><div>I know this sounds like I'm supporting SoE, but I believe it is a very difficult job to keep the classes balanced. I programmed a game once, and found out that may characters were never balanced with the monsters they fought. Granted, I'm only one person and they have a team of people to look into this stuff.</div><div> </div><div>I have been happy with SoE and the changes they have made to EQ2, I don't think it will turn out like SWG, but we will see. If they ever change my mind, I know there are other MMO's to try. Just something to think about: "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time"</div><div><div> </div><div>Btw, yes, my main is a Troubadour <-- (notice the "u" lol), but I never said I didn't have a necromancer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div></div><p>Edit: I hope this is readable now</p><p>Message Edited by Ryushi on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:11 AM</span></p>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>bluejello wrote:but if a mob dies sooner it does less damage<div></div><hr></blockquote>It really is a fine balance.Personally, I solo anything white ^ or less with my nightshade. Yes, it gets beat on baddly but I make sure the fights don't last as long and I keep the mob stunned or even agroed on my as often as possible.Vs white ^^ or higher the tank pet buys me more time. Yeah the DPS is lower, but now I have more options to handle the longer fight.I can't solo the Nest with my nightshade... =)

[Anim]

My reason for thinking the tank pet needs its taunts to be fixed is this:At level 70/30 (Adv/Ach), with all my spells at adept3 or higher.....my tank pet in defensive stance can not hold agro off me unless i really hold back on my dps.  And if i really hold back on dps, the fight lasts too long and the pet gets the crap beat out of it.  Then it makes more sense just to resummon the pet vs healing it back to full.  Im not much for downtime, thats why i rolled a necro.Haha, like the other poster commented about how his healer friends hate healing his tank because it has so many hp and no mit, makes their heals less effective.  Have you noticed our heals?  I HATE healing my tank, throwing out an adept3 Displace Life for 1057hp and seeing my pets hp go up by 1/3rd of a bubble, only to get hit by the mobs next auto attackl for twice that much!  This is not balanced in the least.  Conjuror tank pets hold agro really well, and they still do great dps (the pc), so why do necros get the shaft?In short, id love to use my tank pet more....if it made any sense.  As it stands now, it makes more sense to use the scout or even mage, which i usually do.<div></div>

[Nainitsuj]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xalmat wrote:Stuff<hr></blockquote>Some more stuff<hr></blockquote>More stuff<hr></blockquote><p>Stuff again</p><hr></blockquote><p>To each their own I guess, but maybe ask your guild tanks to upgrade their taunts and use them.  Guardians are not usually the best group tanks per say because of the agro, so that could be an issue.</p><p>Mitigation wise, their is no competition with a good real tank vs our tank pets....ours get eaten alive because of no mit as opposed to a player tank class with decent gear.</p><p>No offense, but I hate when I see people making statements like this.  It perpetuates the myth that our tank pets are better than real player tanks who know their job, and that is not the case even remotely.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I went with Sta/Wis for AA.  My pet can taunt better/hold agro better than the raid MT.  The raid MT is a zerker.  He hates it when I make him compete.  The only tank the pet can't out perform is a pally (amends).  Also, I don't group with healers. I always group with a warder (Defiler is the best).  Wards will always outperform reactive heals when it comes to pets.  Taking down yellow named with a duo cleric  we rearely survive.  Taking down a yellowed named with a duo defiler makes the encounter challenging, but very doable.</p><p> </p>