Why are people crying NECRO NERF???

[ShadowDragon32]

<div>I was just curious why people are crying to nerf summoners?  I have never even seen necros come close to the dps of wizards/warlocks.  I can understand that raid dps could be high if necros can sustain dps for long periods of time.  I can understand this, but not nerfing short term dps.  In pvp if i see a summoner i can usually manage to take him/her out, but if i run into a lock or wizard they can one shot kill me.  I understand that many of the complaints are from rangers who are T1 dps, but hell they are T1 dps/equip chain/have high end dps via both range and upclose attacks/can track/and have speed buffs etc.  < Not trying to point a finger at rangers here, i just think they are pretty bad [Removed for Content] as it stands.  I noticed on the boards that people are now crying about scouts having track.  IMO track is essential to the scouting class and makes them bad [Removed for Content] in pvp.  I dont have a problem with long term necro dps being nerfed, but i just wish that people would chill out on crying nerfs all the time.  Let scouts scouts for goodness sakes and hell let the rangers continue to one shot kill me and i wont cry nerf the scouts.  Just my 2copper. </div>

[Belario]

<div></div>Because we can do things other classes can't. But as far as I know, the Devs have no plans to "nerf" us, per se. :smileywink:

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BelarionG wrote:<div></div>Because we can do things other classes can't. But as far as I know, the Devs have no plans to "nerf" us, per se. :smileywink:<hr></blockquote><p>No to clarify that, some of us can do things that other PLAYERS cant.   Many just need to learn their class first, then whine.</p><p>It's the whole misguided grass is greener syndrome.</p>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div>Well i saw in test notes a week or so back where they were going to make changes to our DPS pets, so i was curious.  I noticed they postponed the pet nerf, but i took it more as codeing type of problems is why it didn't go into test.  If you noticed the boards lately it seems like the masses are calling for bruisers/sk/summoner types/scouts to be nerfed.  Thats just too funny thats most of the population on the nerf block.</div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>The two issues are parsers and the DPS tree put up a while back.</p><p>Some people seem to think this DPS tree can hold true for solo play, group play, and also raid play.</p><p>They cannot grasp the concept that each of these types of gameplay are very different and you cannot reproduce the same DPS for one type of class in each.</p><p>ie, a backstabbing scout needs to be grouped to maximize DPS, they will not be DPS kings solo.</p><p>ie, AOE classes like warlocks can get incredible DPS in groups of heroics mobs, but not raiding a single target long fight.</p><p>ie, necros will not do uber DPS on fast fights but shine in long drawn out fights.</p><p>The parsers give the parse hounds numbers, that they selectively pick and choose, but they do not know how to read them.</p><p>What type of mobs where they fighting, what lvl, what was its resists, what quality of spells/CA's were the DPS using, what lvls were the DPS, was one person having family issues and AFK most of the night, what about computer lag, etc etc etc.</p><p>There are so many variables to take into account that these people see one number, and want to make assumptions based on that.</p><p>We do awesome DPS in many situations and possibly need to be adjusted if the Devs see it as a problem, but many of the people whining for nerfs neglect to tell you what they can do also.</p><p>I have taken upon myself to rile up as many as these nerf herders as I can, and it is even funnier when members of their own class come on the thread and own them with the true DPS and capabilities of their classes.</p>

[Lord Montague]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>The two issues are parsers and the DPS tree put up a while back.</p><p>Some people seem to think this DPS tree can hold true for solo play, group play, and also raid play.</p><p>They cannot grasp the concept that each of these types of gameplay are very different and you cannot reproduce the same DPS for one type of class in each.</p><p>ie, a backstabbing scout needs to be grouped to maximize DPS, they will not be DPS kings solo.</p><p>ie, AOE classes like warlocks can get incredible DPS in groups of heroics mobs, but not raiding a single target long fight.</p><p>ie, necros will not do uber DPS on fast fights but shine in long drawn out fights.</p><p>The parsers give the parse hounds numbers, that they selectively pick and choose, but they do not know how to read them.</p><p>What type of mobs where they fighting, what lvl, what was its resists, what quality of spells/CA's were the DPS using, what lvls were the DPS, was one person having family issues and AFK most of the night, what about computer lag, etc etc etc.</p><p>There are so many variables to take into account that these people see one number, and want to make assumptions based on that.</p><p>We do awesome DPS in many situations and possibly need to be adjusted if the Devs see it as a problem, but many of the people whining for nerfs neglect to tell you what they can do also.</p><p>I have taken upon myself to rile up as many as these nerf herders as I can, and it is even funnier when members of their own class come on the thread and own them with the true DPS and capabilities of their classes.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Very well stated.  I know I certainly view parsing as having a very limited amount of utility - since there are so many variables you have to take into account in order for it to be scientific.  And if I wanted to be scientific about things, I'd work for NASA rather than play video games.</p><p>That aside, it's true - the numbers taken out of context can say whatever you want them to say.  Statistics are a dangerous tool, especially considering that 91% of all statistics are made up (that's up 4% from last week!).  Staggering I say!</p>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div>I honestly dont understand the SOE's dps tree to be honest.  It kind of suprises me that eq2 would have any chain class at a higher dps level than DPS type cloth wearers.  Assassins/Rangers get the benefits of getting cool gear etc to wear that has almost the highest protection second only to plate and still they get all the benefits of nasty DPS/track/speed buffs/etc....  I understand track isn't that great in PVE since many raid encounters are in little instanced zones, but its godlike in pvp.  Not trying to play class hater, because im happy that those 2 classes kick [Removed for Content], but just stating my opinion.

[Lord Montague]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ShadowDragon32 wrote:<div></div>I honestly dont understand the SOE's dps tree to be honest.  It kind of suprises me that eq2 would have any chain class at a higher dps level than DPS type cloth wearers.  Assassins/Rangers get the benefits of getting cool gear etc to wear that has almost the highest protection second only to plate and still they get all the benefits of nasty DPS/track/speed buffs/etc....  I understand track isn't that great in PVE since many raid encounters are in little instanced zones, but its godlike in pvp.  Not trying to play class hater, because im happy that those 2 classes kick [Removed for Content], but just stating my opinion.<hr></blockquote>Granted most scout DPS is positional, and dependent on resists the numbers may come out higher or lower.  I know that assassins have to get up-close-and-personal, subjecting them to some pretty nasty AE's in some cases.  You wouldn't want to be wearing cloth in those cases.<p>Message Edited by Lord Montague on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:49 PM</span></p>

[Allowen]

<div></div><p>The "bug " that is leting us have 100pct chance to do critical hits +critical heals(from our aoe/dd lifetab spells) from str line aa skill does not help us to make ppl get less agro on us about how high is our dps .</p><p>I dont know how they let this HUGE bug working  for so long since KoS arrived ! Come on, ok I am having some "fun" so far  with this skill at rank 8 but this should have been fixed a long time ago in a "ninja emergency patch", I dont think we were supposed to be able to get 100% chance to do critical hits  LOL .If they could just fix that to a more rasoable number then we would still do probably 200dps or a bit  more then sorcerors instead 1k- 2k more dps .</p><p>Well, I guess this  "nerf" they talking about  that they will do to us summoners means around 80pct of the problem will be resolved when thery fix our aa skills......faster recasting FD and that conjuror s skin buff thing will only make us to be able to  be more agressive and do more dps cause any problem we can  cast our feign death  at last once on every named fight.</p><p> </p><p>Allowen</p><p>necromancer of MM server</p><p>Lords of the triple moons</p>

[Dejah]

<div></div><p>People are crying NERF on Necro's because on a few parses (which by nature are misleading) show Necro's on top.  I don't see a problem with summoner DPS at the moment, your dps is situational--in some cases it's great, and other cases its not so hot.  The problem is that some players of T1 DPS classes feel like they need to ALWAYS be out DPS'ing T2 and lower classes, when in reality this is neither the case nor the intention of the Devs.</p><p>Unfortunately there will always be people who cry nerf on other classes, when they don't really know what they are talking about.  They don't think about the big picture and have myopic views on what they believe are the facts.  It's hard to have civil conversations about these topics because the "accusers" tend to write posts in all caps or use a bunch of exclamation points after ever sentence.  I wouldn't worry about it too much though, for when it comes to balancing SOE has much more accurate numbers than we have available in our log files, and they use their own numbers when balancing classes.</p>

[sunmagic]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Allowen wrote:<div></div><p>The "bug " that is leting us have 100pct chance to do critical hits +critical heals(from our aoe/dd lifetab spells) from str line aa skill does not help us to make ppl get less agro on us about how high is our dps .</p><p>I dont know how they let this HUGE bug working  for so long since KoS arrived ! Come on, ok I am having some "fun" so far  with this skill at rank 8 but this should have been fixed a long time ago in a "ninja emergency patch", I dont think we were supposed to be able to get 100% chance to do critical hits  LOL .If they could just fix that to a more rasoable number then we would still do probably 200dps or a bit  more then sorcerors instead 1k- 2k more dps .</p><p>Well, I guess this  "nerf" they talking about  that they will do to us summoners means around 80pct of the problem will be resolved when thery fix our aa skills......faster recasting FD and that conjuror s skin buff thing will only make us to be able to  be more agressive and do more dps cause any problem we can  cast our feign death  at last once on every named fight.</p><p> </p><p>Allowen</p><p>necromancer of MM server</p><p>Lords of the triple moons</p><hr></blockquote>I think poeple get used to playing one way and when you change thing up it creates problems. I am a nec and love theclass. I've have to change tactics from time to time because of problems and if that's the way it is, that's the wayit's going to be. I don't think ANY class should be 100% on anything. It's not that way in life and if they made our classto allow 100% of anything it's not really that fun then. The only thing I'm aware of that's 100% is FD. While that;'scool and all should it be that way? I dunno. Hell...I'd like to have 12 hour invis, tracking, be able to take over an NPCfor a few minutes and so on and so on. But that's never going to happen. Not on toon is a be all toon otherwise thatwould be no fun. Well ok...It would be fun for 5 minues wiping the floor with someone but then it would get old. Heyhow bout this? Give us nec's the "harclave" shield after you complete the ark in SP. Hell, that would be cool butit would be very unrealistic. I say let them wine. I enjoy being the way things are. I'm lvl45 and only have all adept 1spells and pets with the exception of the masters that are given. I do very well soloing so no complaints from me!</span></div>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div>I really like the coolness factor/flavor of the necro.  I think the developers did a good job.  I just would hate to see them butchered over people griping.  I have noticed many more flames since pvp came into the picture, so im sure SOE notices that people are going overboard with the nerf this class thread.  So far today i read that SOE needs to nerf bruisers and monks/some scout abilities to include tracking/summoner types/furys/etc....  As I mentioned above that doesn't really leave any class untouched.

[Trinitymonger]

<div></div>I really hate that people cry "nurf" on any class.  But I will say that I've seen alot more cries since PVP was introduced.  I do not play PVP, that is not why I'm here.  I can understand that there are differences.  I just hope that SOE doesn't start to change classes based upon PVP complaints which will change the PVE as well. :smileysad:

[IA~CHAOS]

<div></div><div>Our (summoner) dps is top bar none.(raid)  I have never been out parsed in a raid situation on a named mob by anyone other then other summoners.  I dont play with noob wizards or warlocks, I have played with some of the best playing those classes, a necro will always admit to being overpowered.  Thats why they want to nerf us, a normal player can play a summoner and be just fine, a good player and its overpowered.</div><p>Message Edited by IA~CHAOS on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:19 PM</span></p>

[Usild]

<div>Chaos....have you read any of this?  Of course our DPS will be high in raid situations.  Those are long fights and DPS wins in long fights.  In solo or grouping DPS is too slow per encounter so we lag behind.  It's not overpowered, it's just better for that particular type of fight.  Why can't people get this?  I really don't understand.</div>

[Magu]

Because that's not how it's supposed to work.Summoners are NOT supposed to be T1 DPS. Ever.<div></div>

[Dalin]

<div></div>Jealousy, people tend to whine and complain abotu other classes they have never played and no little to nothign about just because somethign went wrong on their end.

[Usild]

<div></div>Really?  Ok maybe I've been asleep.  Can you please point to a post by the developers that state that DPS classes are never ever supposed to be high in damage in any situation?

[Ruwin]

<div></div><p>People are jealous....thats it ...very simple.</p><p>Mage class should always be #1 dps period.</p><p>If they don't like it go play another game.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Magu]

It's not that we're not supposed to be high damage, but Sorcerers are supposed to be higher.Summoners are T2, not T1.<div></div>

[Payneal The Great]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>BelarionG wrote:<div></div>Because we can do things other classes can't. But as far as I know, the Devs have no plans to "nerf" us, per se. :smileywink:<hr></blockquote>Are you out of your mind!!! They nerfed the heck out of our pets HP TWICE around the time KoS was released!!!</span></div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Payneal The Great wrote:<div><span>Are you out of your mind!!! They nerfed the heck out of our pets HP TWICE around the time KoS was released!!!</span></div><hr></blockquote>The pet HP change was a bug, and was fixed.</span></div>

[SpiralDown]

<div></div><div></div>To put it in perspective a bit....   how many summoners would be mad if bards or healers out damaged them?  OR if wizzies got a supperior pet than necros?  "nerfing" summoner dps is about balancing dps vs utility.   not saying summoners are doing too much dmg, i dont trust those parsers either.... T1 dpsers only have dmg, any utility they have is for soloing so they can survive to do their dmg alone.  In groups preds and sorcers' only bring dps.  also, scouts using chain armor is to make up for having no aoes, roots, mezzes, ect...  not counting bards.   and the fingers arent coming from the rangers alone, btw...  after all preds have the lowest running boost of anyone who can boost speed (their speed boosts dont stack and j-boots give about the same boost, again doesnt stack) and tracking has only come up as utility since pvp, but come on tracking is THE biggest definer of the scout classThe main problem as stated before is the "grass is greener..." complex, but then again I'm hearing some of that on this forum too.... Mages should always do the most dmg? Please, thats jealousy of armor, without understanding how the armor actually helps or how scouts actually workTier 1 dps classes are in groups and on raids to do dmg.  If they dont have that, they have nothing... summoners are superior at soloing and versitile as heck... a person shouldnt have picked to be a necro or conjuror to out dps others, if you did you made a mistake.... though having very high dps in raids is understandable... maintaining pwr is part of a summoner's utility... heck, part of being a pred is sustaining dmg longer than a wizzy, who can easily burn all their power quite fastAgain, I am not saying there should be a nerf.  I am saying, understand the role of your class, that goes for every class, and play accordingly.  want more dps? be a wizzy.... want a pet? be a necro, but understand that you didnt pick the role of being top dps.  Also, I'm saying that calling others whiners because they see a problem or dont understand everything isnt a good thing to do, though the same can be said about summoners "whining" that they should do teir 1 dmg or have dont enough utility.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by SpiralDown on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:36 PM</span></p>

[Oneira]

<span><blockquote><hr>Trinitymonger wrote:<div></div>I really hate that people cry "nurf" on any class.  But I will say that I've seen alot more cries since PVP was introduced.  I do not play PVP, that is not why I'm here.  I can understand that there are differences.  I just hope that SOE doesn't start to change classes based upon PVP complaints which will change the PVE as well. :smileysad:<hr></blockquote></span><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#66ff00">Correct.  I think that a lot of the cries for Necro nerf have been coming from PvP.</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">I will give you the reasons:</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">1.  The pet.  It not only attacks you doing various types of attacks, but it also taunnts you so that you are constantly losing its necro owner as a target.  This is huge in PvP.</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">2.  The rats.  Not only do they force you into combat mode, but between the pet and the rats forget about casting spells or getting off CAs that have more then a 1-second casting time.</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">3.  The stuns, stifles and roots.  You are rooted, you are attacked by the pet, the rats, and unless you are a ranger, the necro can just keep hitting you with spells.  You are stifled, further preventing you from healing yourself or getting off life-saving spells.</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">4.  The life-siphons.  On top of everything else, the necro gets damage spells that also heal him!</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">5.  Like any mage, invisibility which usually allows the necro to get surprise.</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">-------------------------</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">Put all of these together and necros are, simply put, overpowered for PvP.</font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00"></font><font color="#66ff00">Should they be nerfed?  I don't know.  Maybe it won't be so easy for Necros after 40 and 50.  But I know that right now, and with a very few exceptions, a same-level necro will clean almost anyone's clock.</font></font>

[Magiocracy]

Again, I am not saying there should be a nerf.  I am saying, understand the role of your class, that goes for every class, and play accordingly.  want more dps? be a wizzy.... want a pet? be a necro, but understand that you didnt pick the role of being top dps.  Also, I'm saying that calling others whiners because they see a problem or dont understand everything isnt a good thing to do, though the same can be said about summoners "whining" that they should do teir 1 dmg or have dont enough utility.<span><blockquote><div></div><p>Message Edited by SpiralDown on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:36 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Precisely. It seems that some Necro's want it all - strongest soloing class (along with Conjurors), fantastic flexibility due to selection of pets, excellent utility spells (fd, rez, heal) AND t1 dps to top it all off.And it's nice to see this thread has the usual namecalling and infantile insults from the usual suspects about anyone who disagrees with them.</span><div></div>

[Boran]

First off DPS tree means nothing. It was intended as a VERY general guide but it was always stated that classes could move up and down dependant on many things (gear, mob, etc).Second, PvP has a different rule set to PvE. So what happens in PvP will not happen in PvE.Third, I use a parser for my own benefit. It allows me to see how effective I'm being against a mob and lets me see what I need to do to better.Fourth, the problem sorcerers have is not that they can't out dps us because of spells but because they will pull loads of agro. What sony needs to do is sort out their de-agro spells so that they are more effective. One of our guild wizzies was showing off his excellent lvl 65 spell, only problem is it guarantee's he goes top of the hate list and that is wrong.So instead of people crying nerf on other people we should be working together to help the other classes get their issues sorted out properly (especially the clerics, they can heal and that is it atm <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[Uanelven]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>SpiralDown wrote:<div></div><div></div>In groups preds and sorcers' only bring dps.   <font color="#ffff33">Not true.</font>also, scouts using chain armor is to make up for having no aoes, roots, mezzes, ect...  not counting bards.   and the fingers arent coming from the rangers alone, btw...  after all preds have the lowest running boost of anyone who can boost speed (their speed boosts dont stack and j-boots give about the same boost, again doesnt stack) and tracking has only come up as utility since pvp, but come on tracking is THE biggest definer of the scout classMages should always do the most dmg?    <font color="#ffff33">This view I see mainly from Sourcerors</font>Tier 1 dps classes are in groups and on raids to do dmg.  If they dont have that, they have nothing... summoners are superior at soloing and versitile as heck...  <font color="#ffff33">This is a Multiplayer game.  I do like being alble to solo but please understand that there is no way any class should be unable to function properly in a group based on its solo capability.  Solo play should be a completely seperate balance issue along with PvP.   Plus the fact I see good sourceror players soloing big stuff all the time.  Always have done.</font>a person shouldnt have picked to be a necro or conjuror to out dps others, if you did you made a mistake.... though having very high dps in raids is understandable... <font color="#ffff00">No person should pick ANY class to out dps all others in a good game imo.</font>  maintaining pwr is part of a summoner's utility... <font color="#ffff00">I could be sarcastic here and say "Great,  I can stand with full power tapping my feet while my group is oop."   However I think I know what you mean and that utility is long dps in long fights.  Yes I agree with that.</font>Heck, part of being a pred is sustaining dmg longer than a wizzy, who can easily burn all their power quite fast  <font color="#ffff00">Partly agreed.  Circumstances should be that nobody should be suprised to see a mix of who is on top dps wise.</font>Again, I am not saying there should be a nerf.  I am saying, understand the role of your class, that goes for every class, and play accordingly.  want more dps? be a wizzy.... want a pet? be a necro, but understand that you didnt pick the role of being top dps.  <font color="#ffff33">Listen to what you are saying.  Want a pet?   What do you suppose that pet might do in a group setting.  Um,  damage?  Until the day my tank pet can properly tank for a group (in a substitute role) with mitigation and few pathing bugs</font> <font color="#ffff33">then</font> <font color="#ffff00">it is just not enough to call that something people want in a group</font>.   <font color="#ffff00">When was the last time you thought.   Hey,  lets get that summoner instead of the fighter.    You may aswell be talking about the splitpaw mushroom here.You are correct on one thing.  I didn't pick a necro to be an 'overpowered' dps class and if SOE decides we are then there is little anybody here can.   However I certainly DID expect to have damage as a primary role.  We simply wouldn't have two types of pets (class defining elements probably moreso than any other in game) dedicated to damage if this was not the case.That irritating DPS tree was released the larger part of a year after game release IIRC.</font> Also, I'm saying that calling others whiners because they see a problem or dont understand everything isnt a good thing to do, though the same can be said about summoners "whining" that they should do teir 1 dmg or have dont enough utility.<font color="#ffff00">Yes I agree with this however there are a number of players (not attributing to any class here) who will do this regardless and it says more about the people themselves than any real game balance issues. I really could care less about T1 T2 blah blah blah..  /yawn    I just don't want to see a return to pre LU13 and earlier where we were,  in the main, badly broken.</font><hr>The dps tier system is fundemently flawed as someone has already stated.  You cannot impose on players this kind of thing as an absolute rule.    You tell me you have a player who is highly skilled and has amazing gear and spells.  Your telling him he should not be able to break into 'a' because he is in 'b' and 'b' is where he belongs even if the rest of the group has skills which are specifically aiding him to max his abilities.   Its madness don't you see?  How boring do you want our game to become?</blockquote></span></div><p>Message Edited by Uanelven on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:05 AM</span></p>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Boran wrote:First off DPS tree means nothing. It was intended as a VERY general guide but it was always stated that classes could move up and down dependant on many things (gear, mob, etc).<hr></blockquote>Wrong. While of course things can change by player, for instance if you compared an adept1/treasured sorcerer to a full master/fabled summoner, in general the tiers ARE meant to be consistent.However, as it stands, summoners are repeatedly doing T1 or higher DPS, which is NOT what we should be doing.My *pet* often has the highest DPS in any group, not even factoring in what I'm doing - there is DEFINITELY something wrong there.</span></div>

[Magiocracy]

<div></div>Interesting isn't it that the people who keep saying that the dps tiers mean nothing are playing classes who mysteriously are doing better dps than the tier system says they should.How convenient that the system specified by SOE suddenly means nothing when it suits.Funny that.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:30 PM</span></p>

[Tokam]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span>Wrong. While of course things can change by player, for instance if you compared an adept1/treasured sorcerer to a full master/fabled summoner, in general the tiers ARE meant to be consistent.However, as it stands, summoners are repeatedly doing T1 or higher DPS, which is NOT what we should be doing.My *pet* often has the highest DPS in any group, not even factoring in what I'm doing - there is DEFINITELY something wrong there.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>I have yet to see my pet out dps a scout, mage or fury within +/- 2 levels of me. I use ad 3 scout pet, stance, zerker buff and insignia. Admittedly all adept 3 spells is underpowered when compared to my guildmates. Who are you grouing with?</p><p><font color="#ffcc00">Edit: that would be a fury (Kahonen - you legend!) when he is bored and we have a temp on the mt</font></p><p>Message Edited by Sulpeel on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:39 PM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:Because that's not how it's supposed to work.Summoners are NOT supposed to be T1 DPS. Ever.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You usually make some sense magus but whenever I see "ever" in someone post, it just shows how you do not grasp the concept.

[Magu]

<div></div>But we're not. Assuming two players with equal skill upgrades and gear, we should NOT out-DPS a sorcerer.Edit: well, I did think of one exception - if we both run out of power, we should do more DPS, as our pet will continue doing damage regardless. No power for a sorc = 0 DPS  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magus` on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:01 AM</span></p>

[Boran]

<div></div>Quote from Moorgard<div>The relative damage rankings posted a while back were clearly stated not to be absolutes. They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.</div><div> </div><div>To parse a certain fight or two and say "Look, this other class that is supposed to do less damage than mine outdamaged me" is not indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are a lot of factors to take into account. The rankings were meant to indicate relative positions over the long haul, not in every single encounter.</div><div> </div><div>We have access to combat data across all servers, levels, and group sizes, and we use it to look for cases where classes are performing as a whole either noticeably above or below expectations and will continue to make adjustments as necessary.</div><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. MoorgardGame Designer, EverQuest II</p><p>And Magiocracy...don't insult me with a post as pathetic as yours again please. If you have an argument then great I'll listen but don't post rubbish. The reason I posted about the DPS tiers and will continue to post about them is because people get bogged down in them instead of looking at what the real issue is. As I stated the sorcerors need a major improvement to their Agro management, thsi will allow them to up their DPS rates. And yes I do not play a sorceror, but I do listen to what they are saying on the boards and in my guild.</p><p>Message Edited by Boran on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:08 PM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>On long encounters, ie raids, we are going to shine just based on class and game mechanics with the way raid encounters work.</p><p>We dont run out of power (necros) we have dots running even when other are jousting, we dont die as much as scouts since we can range and stay out of AOE, so by that alone, necros will and should do more damage than most other DPS classes on a raid.</p><p>In regular groups, there are times I can do more DPS, but normal exp groups, the scouts (swashies for one which no one mentions this T2 dps class) and sorcerers do much more than necros.</p><p>I cannot speak for conjurer since you all have some different proces's and spells, but in raids, it is just the nature of our class to put us in an easy position to out DPS other classes in the long run.</p>

[Arkanium]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div></div>But we're not. Assuming two players with equal skill upgrades and gear, we should NOT out-DPS a sorcerer.Edit: well, I did think of one exception - if we both run out of power, we should do more DPS, as our pet will continue doing damage regardless. No power for a sorc = 0 DPS  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magus` on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No this isn't strictly true either a Necro would/should never run out of power (lich/heart/pet tap etc)  before sorceror hence a necrowill over a prolonged fight out dps a sorceror. As well as the pet continueing to do damage.</span></div>

[Morce]

<div>There is no point in trying to argue with the devs. If they decide to nerf our pets or whatever (which I think they will do it) we just have to accept it and live with it.</div>

[Magiocracy]

Okay, I've been thinking about this for a bit, so let me try a different approach to this argument for a change.There is a reason why people focus on the capabailites of all classes when it comes to raiding, especially raid bosses rather than other parts of the game. It's simply because the difficulty level of other content is, quite frankly, rather trivial. In a normal XP group it rarely matters what type of dps you have as long as you have some, and equally conned heroics simply fall over to any half-competent group.So when people start comparing classes they compare them in the part of the game where the use of differing classes can make a <i>real </i>difference, and that's in most cases in the raiding content. Now when it comes to raiding content there seems to be only 4 basic roles.1. Tank2. Dps3. Healing4. Indirect Utility (ie utility that buffs your party rather than directly effect the mobs)Now, Summoners are correct when they say that in a raid situation they are brought along to be dps, along with Sorcerers/Predators, their other utility in a raid situation (hearts etc) is nice but not needed. It is equally true to say that the reason any dps class is brought along on a raid is to do damage to the Big Nasties, not to deal with the fluff along the way, which will die in seconds regardless of what combination of dps you have along. So that would be my justification for saying that performance on the Big Nasties is the only real case where it's worth comparing <i>relative</i> worth between all dps classes.Now, if we consider how all the dps -ers do on single large mobs a couple of things stand out.1. All these fights are long (>2 minutes)2. Any dps class that is not  constrained in some fashion by a limited resource will over time outdps those who do (ie If a Summoner is oop and their pet is still up they can keep dpsing, if an assassin is oop they can keep auto-attacking but if a Sorcerer is oop, well, that's them out of the game).3. Single target damage is more important than AE (expeciallt after the first 30 seconds of the fight when any adds are dead)So put all this together - if I'm a raid leader and I have a choice of filling my last raid spot with a Necromancer, or an equally geared Warlock which will I choose (all other things being equal) ? The answer seems to be that if I'm being objective about it I'll choose the Necromancer simply because they will have more use on the most difficult npcs, simple as that.So when Necromancer's say 'if you reduce our dps we'll be useless', they're right from a raiding context, but the same argument can be made about Sorcerers at the moment - why specifically would you want one on a raid rather than a Necromancer ?The problem I see here is not that Necromancers are doing equal damage to Sorcerers/Predators but rather that they're doing <i>more</i> damage when it really matters (ie against single big raid targets). Ultimately all raid-dps classes should be able to bring more or less equal power to the table. Sure, they may have different ways of doing the same thing (dd vs pets etc) but the final outcome needs to be more or less the same. <div></div>

[Ruwin]

<div></div><p>Me thinks magus is a poser. You know, one of those people claiming to be of a class to make it look as though even that class itself thinks they need to be nerfed. Magus go to your scout forums and whine with your brotheren over there. STAY OFF our necrfo forums.</p><p>He must be a ranger lol.</p><p>:smileywink:</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Boran]

Magiocracy: Good post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> My argument back is the same I have previously posted. Imo Necromancers are where they should be. It is the agro management of other classes that needs to be improved, thereby allowing them to up their DPS and use those wonderful big nukes/ca's.

[Ruwin]

<div></div><p>Sorry almost forgot to put Magiocracy ,or whatever the tools name is, in his place. Buddy....go upgrade your apprentice 1 spells and get better then treasured gear and see if you can do better. Please don't come in to our forums and try to rationalize why we Necros are not performing the way we were meant to. Concentrate whining on your own forums as to why you deserve to be so l33t.</p><p>The Brotherhood of the Necro stick together!!!!!!</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Ruwin]

<div></div><div></div><p>Also wanted to say ....MAD PROPS to Boran for using a great logical approach to dealing with the whiners. Sorry if I offended anyone but I have no patience for those peeps. I normally don't post in these forums and I have been around since launch, however when it comes to people trying to ruin my class something has to be said.</p><p>Ruwin 70 Necro / Nektulos</p><p>Message Edited by Ruwin on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:45 AM</span></p>

[Magiocracy]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Ruwin wrote:<div></div><p>Sorry almost forgot to put Magiocracy ,or whatever the tools name is, in his place. Buddy....go upgrade your apprentice 1 spells and get better then treasured gear and see if you can do better. Please don't come in to our forums and try to rationalize why we Necros are not performing the way we were meant to. Concentrate whining on your own forums as to why you deserve to be so l33t.</p><p>The Brotherhood of the Necro stick together!!!!!!</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Yawn, yet more puerile insults from someone with no actual case to argue. If you haven't the capacity to respond in rational and civilised manner without resorting to childish namecalling then please don't bother, you're an embarassment to yourself and to your class.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magiocracy on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:54 PM</span></p>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div>I think everyone is right about 2 things when it comes to other classes and DPS on raids.  Improve their power so they can do sustained DPS and make some minor change to their over agroing.  I'm hoping that SOE waits to see how the changes on test to scouts improves their sustained DPS before they descide on summoner changes...  I get sick and tired of people crying nerf.  Heck I'm sick and tired of being tracked and 1 shot killed by Rangers on Nagafen, but you dont see me crying nerf the Rangers.  Just imagine when there autoattack is improved by 33% on live...

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Boran wrote:First off DPS tree means nothing. It was intended as a VERY general guide but it was always stated that classes could move up and down dependant on many things (gear, mob, etc).<hr></blockquote>Wrong. While of course things can change by player, for instance if you compared an adept1/treasured sorcerer to a full master/fabled summoner, in general the tiers ARE meant to be consistent.However, as it stands, summoners are repeatedly doing T1 or higher DPS, which is NOT what we should be doing.My *pet* often has the highest DPS in any group, not even factoring in what I'm doing - there is DEFINITELY something wrong there.</span></div><hr></blockquote>You got no clue, right? Nothing new here.</span><div></div>

[Benboe]

Heyehy,well, that counts again how "farsighted" SoE Devs are. Remember when Lich was nerfed? Back then people were complaining about Necro DMG output as well ... and got a response by a dev ...http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=67221&query.id=43394#M67221So what? we are supposed to be at the DMG we are now post 50 ... so why a nerf?Oovaan, 70 Necromancer ..<div></div>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:But we're not. Assuming two players with equal skill upgrades and gear, we should NOT out-DPS a sorcerer.Edit: well, I did think of one exception - if we both run out of power, we should do more DPS, as our pet will continue doing damage regardless. No power for a sorc = 0 DPS  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Magus` on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Once again, you got no clue.Lets see... what situations can we get.1. Solo. Single mob. ---> Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.2. Solo. Group of mobs.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.</span><span>3. Grouping. Single heroic mob.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.</span><span>4. Grouping. Group of heroic mobs.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.</span><span>5. Raids. Single epic mob, no immunities, no AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#66ff00">IS</font> top dps.</span><span>6. Raids. Single epic mob, no immunities, with AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#ffff00">MIGHT</font> be be top dps.</span><span>7. Raids. Single epic mob, with immunities, no AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#ffff00">MIGHT</font> be top dps.</span><span>8. Raids. Single epic mob, with immunities, with AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#ffff00">MIGHT</font> be top dps.</span><span>9. Raids. Group of epic mobs,</span><span> no immunities, no AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#ffff00">MIGHT</font> be top dps.</span><span>10. </span><span>Raids. Group of epic mobs,</span><span> no immunities, with AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.</span><span>11. </span><span>Raids. Group of epic mobs, </span><span>with immunities, no AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#ffff00">MIGHT</font> be top dps.</span><span>12. </span><span>Raids. Group of epic mobs, </span><span>with immunities, with AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.</span><span>13. Raids. Epic encounter with mezzed mobs, </span><span>no immunities, no AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#66ff00">IS</font> top dps.</span><span>14. </span><span>Raids. Epic encounter with mezzed mobs, </span><span>no immunities, with AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.</span><span>15. </span><span>Raids. Epic encounter with mezzed mobs, </span><span>with immunities, no AE.</span><span> ---> </span><span>Summoner <font color="#ffff00">MIGHT</font> be top dps.</span><span>16. </span><span>Raids. Epic encounter with mezzed mobs, </span><span>with immunities, with AE.</span><span> ---></span><span> Summoner is <font color="#ff0000">NOT</font> top dps.Got it?Ciao.</span><div></div>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div><div>If we were where they wanted us in damage back then what would have changed now except people wining?  here is a quote from Lockeye</div><div> </div><div><div>Included in an update soon for the test server for LU16 includes 2 upgrades in DoT spell damage for the Necromancer's 'Withering Affliction' and 'Blight' spell lines.</div><div> </div><div>The reason for the reduction in Lich damage was evident because in how its proc benefit alone can often outdamage spells like Ice Comet and Blazing Presence in its overall damage per second. Necromancers post 50 are close to where we wanted them to be overall, but they were doing too much damage through one spell (with power regeneration benefits that don't follow the cap rules). More of their damage was weighted towards a single spell, so what about all of those Necromancer's that aren't level 50 yet? The pre to post level 50 game shouldn't be such an imbalance within a class, and looking at the change to Lich justified improving other spell lines the Necromancer has throughout their adventuring that will help them level, including post 50.</div><p></p><div>===========================Jared SweattEverQuest II Spells and Combat Designer</div></div>

[Allowen]

<div></div><div>How to make pet to do more dps ?</div><div> </div><div>- get  master pet spells</div><div>- get master pet buff spells</div><div> </div><div> and how to make a melee Pc class to do high dps ?</div><div>- get master spell/skill(s)</div><div>- get procing weapons/armor</div><div>- get T7 FABLED weapons</div><div> </div><div>You know, I am tired to see some melee class complainning about  "why that x pet is doing more dps then me ?"</div><div>Well if you are like a lv 69 dps class and no uber legendary T6/T7 or uber T6 fabled from high end T^ encounters to T& fabled if you parse your dps against a scout master pet+master buff you wil lget so OWNED. it is life, accept it.</div><div> </div><div>Pets are strong NOW so later on in two to six  months when many melee class gets uber fabled uber weapons dont own pets so much owned .Melee class dps complains too much, ythey can always get stronger and stronger with more and more  better weapons and stuff but the summoner s pets cant, after AA skills and master spells are done then it is nothing else we can do to raise pet s dps besides one or other items like  the robe from Dijin master that can raise 10pct pet s dps for a short duration.</div><div> </div><div>What I say to melee class that read this post is  to get a life, go finish HQ quests such Wurmslayer , that belt HQ(with 700 dd procs at 10pct chance ) and get  better weapons cause when you do that you will own pets in dps and us summoner ppl will have to sweat the hell to keep parsing higher dps.</div><div> </div><div>I remember about me and a conjuror guildmate before KoS that we could outdamage uber equipated rangers(on raid fights ) at 40 to 50pct of the time and I belive this will happen  again as soon ppl starts to gear thenselves with fabled/uber legendary........ And they used to say that rangers were unbeatable ! Just get soem gear and chain cast your spells ......</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Allowen</div><div>necromancer of MM server</div><div>Lords of the triple moons</div>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div>Its funny but 95% of the negative nerf cryers are rangers..... 

[Usild]

<div>Magus, let me respond like this.  You are referring to the ONLY type of fighting in which a summoner MIGHT out dps other classes.  You are purposely ruling out grouping and soloing to suit your own purposes which is ignorant and misleading.  Just because this is the only situation YOU want to discuss does not mean it is the only one that matters. </div><div> </div><div>In fact, if they did scale down all necro DoTs in damage to the point where they could not out dps any other class, necros would fast become the loneliest class in the game because in non-raid environments NOBODY WOULD WANT ONE.  We already do less dmg than most classes in xp groups because the fights are so short.  If the devs made the necessary changes you and others are crying for to cripple our DPS in long duration fights, we'd have the damage output of a healer without the benefit of being able to heal worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. </div><div> </div><div>Our tank pets CANNOT outperform an actual tank (unless the actual tank REALLY sucks)</div><div>Our caster pets CANNOT outperform other casters</div><div>Our heals CANNOT compare to real heals</div><div>Our FD cannot compare to other FD's</div><div> </div><div>Let's face it, we're a hodgepodge of other class abilities all scaled down to be nowhere near as good as the original abilities in most cases.  If you scale down DoTs you kill any real function in 95% of grouping which is what the game revolves around.  The ONLY time we shine is the epic encounters.  If you really want that changed as well, IMO it dooms the necro class.</div>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div>You speak the truth. </div>

[Tallika_Runwithbears]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div></div>But we're not. Assuming two players with equal skill upgrades and gear, we should NOT out-DPS a sorcerer.Edit: well, I did think of one exception - if we both run out of power, we should do more DPS, as our pet will continue doing damage regardless. <b>No power for a sorc = 0 DPS  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></b><div></div><p>Message Edited by Magus` on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:01 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>and thats what skews the parcers numbers.  if they let loose with H-bomb nukes and do fantastic dps at the start of a long fight they are just standing around sitting on their thumbs while we keep on with the <b>constent and consistantly even</b> amount of damage.  its two radically different play styles.  this is why when we go around clearing lower mobs a scorcer class blows our dps away.  we only have one piddly nuke and one AE damage spell and a pet to do any fast damage before the fight is over.   I dont get why you dont understand why with those kinds of change ups in spells the two classes have available to each other that there are a few situations where we as necros will do much more damage in an encounter and where a scorcerer will blow us away.and your blindness in calling the dps tiers cast in stone...  HAHA!!  the devs have frequently and repeatedly said the were a ROUGH guild for where they wanted the classed to be aligned.  and they are pretty happy with where we are barring some occasional tweeking where some spells arent behaving quite correctly.  I am also more confident in their ability to scrour the data base to harvest encounter damage data and make correct dps calculations from it.  where the parcers we use are nowhere near as good.</span></div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Usildor wrote:<div>Magus, let me respond like this.  You are referring to the ONLY type of fighting in which a summoner MIGHT out dps other classes.  You are purposely ruling out grouping and soloing to suit your own purposes which is ignorant and misleading.  Just because this is the only situation YOU want to discuss does not mean it is the only one that matters.</div><hr></blockquote>I hardly ever raid. I mostly group. My pet routinely tops out the DPS chart, regardless of other classes in the group. When pet isn't number 1, add my DPS to it and I am.So tell me, how is that ruling out grouping? I'm actually ruling out raiding, which is the one occasion you claim a summoner tops out DPS.</span></div>

[Usild]

<div>Well you must be grouping with some pretty crappy other classes then because when a warlock, scout, or wiz is in normal xp grouping with me and any other necro I've grouped with (and I parse frequently) my pet is NEVER top dps (unless people aren't trying much because things are going smoothly).  If you add the two of us together I am usually in the ballpark of the wiz/war but scouts usually do better than me (depending on fight duration). </div><div> </div><div>But hey, if they're gonna nerf the dps they're gonna do it regardless.  If they do, I just hope they give us more utility because if they make the changes that people are crying for, we're going to be useless in groups and solo and only moderately effective in long duration fights.</div>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>if just your pet can do best dps in your group with wiz/warlock/ranger/brigand or so, your group definitely sux.</p><p>any wiz/warlock or even brigand i known well can outdps me any day of the week in Normal XP group.</p><p>but raid, i might get closer to them. its all about quality players.</p>

[Benboe]

Imho one of the main reasons other classes complain about Necros / summoners in gerneral is that pets make live easy in a way. Just upgrade pet and stance to Adept III and of u go ... /petattack and u have alot of DPS without doing anything else.And when the pet dies then what? Summon a new one and of u go ...The basic problem is that the gamemechanic works in favor for summoners. Instead of 1 entity for the Hate list u have 2. Im order to do good DMG u just clikc a single button. Nothing there that needs skill, not even halfway ....What I would like to see would be a change to Summoner classes in general. Make pets unupgradable. Make them permanent. Make abilities that allow them to grow over time - aka the longer they live, the stronger they get (within certain means). Make Necros able to augment the pet (best via the bodyparts of fallen enemies e.g.) to make it better (aka give it equipment slots). Something along those lines ...If u would do it like this no nerf would be needed at all and we could still have the bragging rights. Huge parts of our DPS would then rely on skill, not just on a single command /petattack ...Oovaan, 70 Necromancer, Runnyeye<div></div>

[prince_sd]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:Currently in T7 Raids when parsingSingle Target Mobs, without AOE's:Necromancer(Me) 1,500                                         <font color="#ff0000">+   0 dps (no damage added to group) - 15% (from AA crit fix)  = 1275 dps</font>Wizard 800-1,000                                                                            <font color="#ff0000">+ 200-400 dps (from group dmg shield buffs ) = 1400 dps</font>Single Target Mobs, with AOE's:Wizard 700-900                                                                                                                                    <font color="#ff0000">+ 200-400 dps = 1300 dps</font>Necromancer 600-800                                                                                              <font color="#ff0000">+ 0 dps  - 15% (from AA crit fix) = 680 dps</font><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffff">Anyone still thinks necros are overpowered compared to wizard ? I think not.</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">Just think how many raid mobs have AOE's and you will get the answer. Rather we need a boost in our utility.</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=9316&page=4</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">for full info</font></font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:28 PM</span></p>

[Deson]

Curious Magus, are you accounting for groupmate procs on the pet? Every group I'm in with wizzies and warlocks make me feel near useless unless there's a steady flow of ^^^'s. Things just die too fast with a Sorc in the group. I do know though that if there is a dirge and a troub in the group my dps number jump significantly. Matter of fact, the more proc's, haste's and dps mod's in the group the greater my numbers jump. Heck, in a good group witha pally my scout always has amends on it and can still yank aggro. Group make up is a huge factor and people don't always attribute that dps where it belongs.<div></div>

[Usild]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Benboe wrote:The basic problem is that the gamemechanic works in favor for summoners. Instead of 1 entity for the Hate list u have 2. Im order to do good DMG u just clikc a single button. Nothing there that needs skill, not even halfway ....Oovaan, 70 Necromancer, Runnyeye<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>And again, someone just doesn't look at things from all the angles.   Yes, you have 2 sources of DPS and therefore 2 names on the hate list...WHILE THE PET IS ALIVE.</p><p>Soon as the pet dies, you get all your aggro PLUS your pet's aggro.  Like anything else it's a double edged sword.  And our tanks don't hold aggro near as well as they used to and took HP hits. </p><p>And again, pets by themselves aren't that great of damage.  They arent Tier4 but they aren't great either.  If you actually see a necro running around playing only letting their pet fight, they aren't getting much for xp solo.  And if they're doing it in group they should get kicked out for slacking and not doing nearly as much dmg as they could.  I don't exactly call firing arrows or casting the same 2-3 nukes much talent either, but that's not the point. </p><p>Seriously, knock off the "just send in the pet" or "soloing while afk" crap....it's total BS unless you're fighting very weak mobs, and if you don't know that, you aren't playing a necro.  Period.</p>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Deson wrote:Curious Magus, are you accounting for groupmate procs on the pet? Every group I'm in with wizzies and warlocks make me feel near useless unless there's a steady flow of ^^^'s. Things just die too fast with a Sorc in the group. I do know though that if there is a dirge and a troub in the group my dps number jump significantly. Matter of fact, the more proc's, haste's and dps mod's in the group the greater my numbers jump. Heck, in a good group witha pally my scout always has amends on it and can still yank aggro. Group make up is a huge factor and people don't always attribute that dps where it belongs.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I rarely group with classes that do much to my pet, other then the occasional monk haste.And to those attributing it to bad players, that could be true if I was comparing to the same people over and over, but when group makeup changes repeatedly and I'm always up at the top, well...</span></div>

[Deson]

You know, I forgot you are a conj. I cant really speak to that as I dont play one.<div></div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><p>Necros should not be top DPS in raids. It would completely unbalance the game.</p><p>If Necros are top DPS in raids then you have essentially made Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers, and Assassins 100% useless for raids.</p><p>Why bring a wizard when you can bring a Necro and get 2x the utility, less aggro problems, better survivability, and more DPS.</p><p>I guess it's ok for Enchanters to outdmg Necros on raids aswell. Thats the same as what you are saying.</p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>, necros will and should do more damage than most other DPS classes on a raid.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Ok if this were true then please give me one reason to bring a wizard on a raid. If wizards aren't out DPSing summoners then they are 100% useless, but the same is not true vice versa.

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Deson wrote:You know, I forgot you are a conj. I cant really speak to that as I dont play one.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I play both, not just a Conjuror.  While Conjurors are indeed a bit higher then Necros, we are BOTH higher then we should be.</span></div>

[Deson]

Excuse me if I wait for the Dev call on necro's, Lockeye said we were just about where we were supposed to be. Also, I only see the parses for raids not regular groups. Sorcs usually do more damage than me in groups ad that's wholly expected. I'm more inclined to agree with the sorcs that say they need more aggro control options and cast/recast adjustments as opposed to us being too powerful. I really dont want to end up rebroken as they sort things out.<div></div>

[prince_sd]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div>Ok if this were true then please give me one reason to bring a wizard on a raid. If wizards aren't out DPSing summoners then they are 100% useless, but the same is not true vice versa.<hr></blockquote>Whats this pointless discussion for when wizards are outdpsing necros in t7 raids ?look at my earlier post for numbers.</span></div>

[Magiocracy]

<span><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div>Ok if this were true then please give me one reason to bring a wizard on a raid. If wizards aren't out DPSing summoners then they are 100% useless, but the same is not true vice versa.<hr></blockquote>Whats this pointless discussion for when wizards are outdpsing necros in t7 raids ?look at my earlier post for numbers.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Well, because this isn't just about how Necromancers compare to Wizards, it's also about how they compare to Warlocks/Rangers/Assassins.</span><div></div>

[Tokam]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Usildor wrote:<div>Magus, let me respond like this.  You are referring to the ONLY type of fighting in which a summoner MIGHT out dps other classes.  You are purposely ruling out grouping and soloing to suit your own purposes which is ignorant and misleading.  Just because this is the only situation YOU want to discuss does not mean it is the only one that matters.</div><hr></blockquote>I hardly ever raid. I mostly group. My pet routinely tops out the DPS chart, regardless of other classes in the group. When pet isn't number 1, add my DPS to it and I am.So tell me, how is that ruling out grouping? I'm actually ruling out raiding, which is the one occasion you claim a summoner tops out DPS.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I still fail to understand this so I will ask again - who are you grouping with (respective levels please) Please post 10 or 20 parses showing this, or maybe an hour of you xping in your local xp place. I would be amazed.

[Psyrus2]

All of this flaming is rediculous.  Each class has their pro's and con's.  I have a buddy who plays an SK and he can shell out some serious damage, on top of that, he's a [Removed for Content] tank.  I have another buddy who plays a defilier, and when we duo, he tank's, because its more effective than my tank pet.  There are times when we can top the DPS list, but there are times when we don't come close.  Many things can be lost in "perseption", and I think some of the flamer's have fallen in that catigory.  We are a solid damage class, with some neat utilities.  There are many classes out there if played right, can out damage us all day long.  Necro's are a complex class to play, so we are usually naturally better than most HAHAHA :lol<div></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>, necros will and should do more damage than most other DPS classes on a raid.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Ok if this were true then please give me one reason to bring a wizard on a raid. If wizards aren't out DPSing summoners then they are 100% useless, but the same is not true vice versa.<hr></blockquote><p>One reason?</p><p>Resists.</p><p>I can give more but you asked for one.</p><p>Figure it out.</p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div>Ok if this were true then please give me one reason to bring a wizard on a raid. If wizards aren't out DPSing summoners then they are 100% useless, but the same is not true vice versa.<hr></blockquote>Whats this pointless discussion for when wizards are outdpsing necros in t7 raids ?look at my earlier post for numbers.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>Poochie is the expert of pointless comments on conj/necro nerf threads.</p><p>Next he will start in describing how he plays a conj and why he is overpowered.</p><p>He has a nice little pattern he tries now and again...</p>

[Stealer]

<div></div><div></div><p>I Play a LVL 70 Necro and have almost All adept3 or master Spells and I personally would like to see a Wizard and a Necro go Head to head after a Rooted mod that will not attack with unlimited Mana. Wizard will be nuking his butt off and Destroy us in DPS Hands Down.People Forget that our Agro is Split between our Pet and ourselves if we push the edge of our DPS our Pet might Grab Agro for a few Seconds I see it all the Time in Fights But if a Wiz or Warlock Try this we end up with a Dead Wizard.  Yes wizards are Better DPS so are Rangers we just have a little pillow (pet) to land on if we go all out on DPS. Magus if you believe your pet alone can out DPS a warlock send your pet out after 6 even con  linked mobs then let the warlock have a go at it see the results dead necro pet. or better yet magus Duel a Wizard let your pet have 1 hit then you take a nuke back off and let the wizard get a shot in keep going till you Die it should take about 1 hit.So me thinks if Magus is out DPSing other Casters in his Group it could be that the mages cannot Nuke there hearts out, there are VERY few times that they can. But a Necro can. I look at it Like the tortoise and the hare  we can go all out all the time and slow and steady is going to win DPS ever time in a long Fight. where as the Hare will be like BAM BAM nuke back off BAM BAM nuke Back off Because a Dead Wiz = 0 DPSAnd if you don’t buy that Magus look at it this wayOut DPSing a Wizard in normal Game play is like Running the in special Olympics. Even if you win your Still [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]<span>.</span></p><p>Message Edited by IVIilkman on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:00 AM</span></p>

[Tokam]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Personally I think he always groups with 4 temps and a guardian <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><font color="#ffcc00">Edit: IVlikman you may want ot edit out the last part of your post matey, I dont think there is any room for those sorts of comments here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just a thought.</font></p><p><font color="#ffcc00">Edit 2: crap spelling as always</font></p><p>Message Edited by Sulpeel on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:47 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sulpeel on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:48 PM</span></p>

[Geoff]

<div></div>Think summoners should just enjoy it, and the haters who want a nerf should just relax, it will happen eventually.  We all know it's coming, just like when warlocks were over powered before LU 13 we knew it was coming, and rangers before LU 20 were overpowered (our ranger still leads raid parse though, btw, over conjjs and necros).  We all go thru fluxes, it's going to happen since the game is constantly evolving.  Personally I could care less summoners are out dps'ing me some of the time.  Just means it's better for the raid.

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geoff77 wrote:<div></div>Think summoners should just enjoy it, and the haters who want a nerf should just relax, it will happen eventually.  We all know it's coming, just like when warlocks were over powered before LU 13 we knew it was coming, and rangers before LU 20 were overpowered (our ranger still leads raid parse though, btw, over conjjs and necros).  We all go thru fluxes, it's going to happen since the game is constantly evolving.  Personally I could care less summoners are out dps'ing me some of the time.  Just means it's better for the raid.<hr></blockquote><p>Thats how I see it Geoff.</p><p>I played my necro since they were [Removed for Content] Pre-LU13.  Why?</p><p>Because I love the class.</p><p>I play him now for the same reasons and if I am changed, i will still play him.</p><p>I am happy for guildies who were powerful in the past.  I never thought once, wow they need to be nerfed!</p><p>Guards were gods, but they were nerfed and I felt bad for my guardian guildies.</p><p>I hate to see anyone nerfed and my enjoyment of the game doesnt come form what others can or cant do better or worse than me, it comes from hanging out with guildies and friends and having fun.</p><p>We raid, we kill some nice stuff, but we are not min maxers where we parse everyone and kick people out according to what the parse says.</p><p>I feel bad for some of you in that situation so maybe that is why I think the way I do, but people always calling for others to be nerfed get under my skin...and no just about my class, but any.</p>

[Aexon]

As much as I wanted to stay out of this, you guys sucked me in...I am a 56 Necro, and I group regularly with a 56 Warlock and then random other people. I have to agree almost completely with Magus, he is dead on when it comes to damage we are almost always on top.  Granted if the fight is only a few seconds I do not do much but just about in any other situation I can be on top of the DPS chart. Lets say we are fighting a group of 4 heroic mobs, now the warlock will do really well here and will be on top of the chart, but if you add all of my pets damage up and mine I will almost 90% of the time equal the warlocks or beat it.  On a single target mob there is no compeition unless I am grouping with another Conjurer or Necromancer.  Every weekend we do T6 raids and I can pretty much gurantee I can be on top of the chart everytime if I control my pet properly.Heck and the best part about being a Summoner is I can go all out on the monster, dump everything I have on it and never worry about taking agro.  A Wizard or Warlock that goes balls to the wall has a pretty good chance of taking the ole 1 hit dirt nap. I understand people do not want to see us get nerfed, but some of these people look so stupid saying we can't out damage Wizards and Warlocks. The funny thing is its not even hard for me, my pet can do most of the work while I sit back and drop occasional DOTs, lifetaps and what not. As it stands I think our Assasin pet and Caster pet are over powered, I do not think the necromancer himself is overpowered. I think his pet is the problem.I think people are crazy if they think we wont get a nerf... The nerf is coming and is needed for balance. I just hope SOE can come up with a good way to handle it. Id say lower our offensive pets damage a bit and if we are really lucky maybe they could add a bit more utility for us... I am sure the utility is pushing it though.CheersAex<div></div>

[Usild]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>I am happy for guildies who were powerful in the past.  I never thought once, wow they need to be nerfed!</p><hr></blockquote>If only everybody felt that way.  I've never once, in EQ1 or EQ2, called a class out to be nerfed.  I think it's a case of measuring E-peni to do so.....which is why I couldn't stand playing WoW.  Sad really.

[Usild]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aexon wrote:As much as I wanted to stay out of this, you guys sucked me in...I am a 56 Necro, and I group regularly with a 56 Warlock and then random other people. I have to agree almost completely with Magus, he is dead on when it comes to damage we are almost always on top.  Granted if the fight is only a few seconds I do not do much but just about in any other situation I can be on top of the DPS chart. Lets say we are fighting a group of 4 heroic mobs, now the warlock will do really well here and will be on top of the chart, but if you add all of my pets damage up and mine I will almost 90% of the time equal the warlocks or beat it.  On a single target mob there is no compeition unless I am grouping with another Conjurer or Necromancer.  Every weekend we do T6 raids and I can pretty much gurantee I can be on top of the chart everytime if I control my pet properly.Heck and the best part about being a Summoner is I can go all out on the monster, dump everything I have on it and never worry about taking agro.  A Wizard or Warlock that goes balls to the wall has a pretty good chance of taking the ole 1 hit dirt nap. I understand people do not want to see us get nerfed, but some of these people look so stupid saying we can't out damage Wizards and Warlocks. The funny thing is its not even hard for me, my pet can do most of the work while I sit back and drop occasional DOTs, lifetaps and what not. As it stands I think our Assasin pet and Caster pet are over powered, I do not think the necromancer himself is overpowered. I think his pet is the problem.I think people are crazy if they think we wont get a nerf... The nerf is coming and is needed for balance. I just hope SOE can come up with a good way to handle it. Id say lower our offensive pets damage a bit and if we are really lucky maybe they could add a bit more utility for us... I am sure the utility is pushing it though.CheersAex<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Well I guess I just suck then (I'm in my 40's so maybe this makes a difference) but in normal xp grouping I don't top wizards or warlocks usually.  Guess that's just me (though others have said it).  And I do use combatstats pretty often to see how I'm doing so just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm stupid. </p><p>I agree that the pets should be modified rather than spells.  More utility would be nice.  I do hope, however, that if they do drop the nerf stick on the pets that they give them a bit more hp or something so that they don't die so often from AoE's but probably won't happen.</p>

[Venjenz]

People have been crying "nerf necros" ever since the first necro gave their pet a Moss Covered Twig and got experience while feigned. SOE has been obliging ever since, thinking all necromancer ability is bugged like the fabled twig was. Pets were nerfed, DoTs were nerfed, DD spells, FD success rate, etc.And after 3 years of smacking us deathcasters around, anytime a druid saw a good necro fear kite and finish a fight with 90% mana, the forums exploded with nerf rally cries. <i>(PS - I loved making druids cry)</i>Same story now, except instead of wizards and druids being PO'd that we solo more efficiently, you have the combat parsers so people can cry and whine about their spot on the DPS chart. And in the long and short of it, the summoner will be on top for long fights on single mobs. It was that way in EQ1, and it is that way now. Problem is, not every raid/group encounter is a long single target fight.Too many people see the DPS [Removed for Content] as the be-all-end-all measure of a character's worth. So I wonder, are Templars and Inquisitors totally useless? Guardians? Group effort and playing to strengths is what kills badmob_01 dead. Who has stroke rights when the dust settles is childish, not to mention pointless. Did the big bad raid mob die? Did the quest get finsihed by everyone? Did the goal get accomplished? If so, then who cares who did the most damage?<div></div>

[Lukundo]

<div></div><p>LOL ... I have never posted before, but feel it necessary on this one.  I have never heard such ignorant crap in my life.  Magus, I want to see anything to support your position that your pet (you did say your pet alone) does more damage than the other people in your group, and please give me the names of  those players.  As for you Aexon, you are either also from another class hoping necros get hit with the nerf bat, or that warlock friend you play with really sucks. </p><p>Your lines are similar to those I read in another post about a 42 conjurer soloing 3 level 47 ^^^ at the same time.  You guys go so freaking overboard that it anyone believed you they are either 12 years old and without a sufficient b. s, detector or of an incredibly low IQ.</p><p>The argument as it stands is flawed because everything is situational.  The quality of the player, gear and spells/combat arts will determine the damage done.  In a short fight (normal exp group) a necro SHOULD not be doing more damage than a Mage or Scout class.  If it happens, then you need to wake the Mage or Scout up because they are sleeping on the job and just leeching exp.  The only time you will be doing more damage than these classes in an exp group is if they are just auto attacking.</p><p>As for raiding, once again, many things will affect who does what amount of damage, but one important thing to note is that most Mage classes intentionally limit the amount of damage they do so as not to get aggro throughout a fight.  However, when it comes time to burn the mob down ... it is the Mage and Scouts that are doing the insane dps.  Necros are sustained dps.  I can offer no more during the burn the mob down phase than I have offered the rest of the fight.   If my DPS is at or near the top, then it is because I played my class very well.</p><p><span></span> </p><p> </p>

[Sirjohn]

<div></div><p>Lukundo, I agree with you.  Those folks who are parsing battles give us some great information on them; but in most cases they have no idea how the other people in the group/raid are performing (e.g., whether they are holding back or not).  I have played a necro since EQ1, and have a 66 Necro on Unrest.  I guarantee you that the warlocks and wizards can/do outdamage me IF THEY TRY TO.  They generally do not try to as that is a sure way to die quickly; we generally try to control our aggro by pacing ourselves, meaining we hold our damage up as high as we can without gaining the coveted #1 on the hate list.  This usually means that we (meaning rangers, warlocks, wizards and necros) end up with similiar numbers at the end of a fight.  If the raid lead announces burn down; I am easily outdamaged single target by wizards, and group mobs by warlocks.</p><p>And and the guy who says they can run wide open and never get aggro; tell me what happens when the raid mob AoEs and your pet dies?  Your DPS will usually go to zero quickly as you will move to the top of the hate list due to your pet transferring its hate to you.  Yes its true that we split aggro with our pets, but if you compare total raw damage numbers of same equipped, same spell mastery casters, we are second to wizards and warlocks (of course, warlocks you have to factor in they are doing multiple mob damage).</p><p> </p>

[Venjenz]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div>However, when it comes time to burn the mob down ... it is the Mage and Scouts that are doing the insane dps.  Necros are sustained dps.  I can offer no more during the burn the mob down phase than I have offered the rest of the fight.   If my DPS is at or near the top, then it is because I played my class very well. <hr></blockquote><span>:smileyhappy:And there it is. Sustained DPS. All day long, never changes. We have no burst. No burndown nuke-fest. No stacked specials to go insane. Just that same old DoT stack, chugging away. And as you say, if a necro got to the top of the DPS list without drawing aggro, I think the raid group should be happy, not crying over who has the longest [Removed for Content]. Why? Because a necro playing that well in a group is an asset, and a valuable one at that.</span></span><div></div>

[Tallika_Runwithbears]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Venjenz wrote:People have been crying "nerf necros" ever since the first necro gave their pet a Moss Covered Twig and got experience while feigned. SOE has been obliging ever since, thinking all necromancer ability is bugged like the fabled twig was. Pets were nerfed, DoTs were nerfed, DD spells, FD success rate, etc.And after 3 years of smacking us deathcasters around, anytime a druid saw a good necro fear kite and finish a fight with 90% mana, the forums exploded with nerf rally cries. <i>(PS - I loved making druids cry)</i>Same story now, except instead of wizards and druids being PO'd that we solo more efficiently, you have the combat parsers so people can cry and whine about their spot on the DPS chart. And in the long and short of it, the summoner will be on top for long fights on single mobs. It was that way in EQ1, and it is that way now. Problem is, not every raid/group encounter is a long single target fight.<b>Too many people see the DPS [Removed for Content] as the be-all-end-all measure of a character's worth. So I wonder, are Templars and Inquisitors totally useless? Guardians? Group effort and playing to strengths is what kills badmob_01 dead. Who has stroke rights when the dust settles is childish, not to mention pointless. Did the big bad raid mob die? Did the quest get finsihed by everyone? Did the goal get accomplished? If so, then who cares who did the most damage?</b><hr></blockquote></span><span>Venjenz you're my new hero!!  that highlighted paragraph sums it all up beautifully<span>:smileyhappy:</span></span></div>

[Aexon]

<span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div><p> that warlock friend you play with really sucks. </p><hr></blockquote>You must really suck if you can not outdamage the other classes.  You must not know how to play a summoner class, because the only classes that can compare to my damage and give me a run for my money are other Necromancers and Conjurers. Or I guess it could be that you are right and that all the people on Lucan D'lere suck playing their characters and that myself and all the summoners are the only good players on the server...  Cause as far as I can tell every time I have ever grouped with ANYONE I can outdamage them easily unless of course they are another summoner.Aex</span><div></div>

[Lukundo]

<div>Aexon ... you are really fighting a losing battle now.  You were called out ... leave it alone.  You were exposed for the nerf bat toating troll you are and you have ZERO credibility.  Please post a screen shot of you and your group fighting along with a parse from that fight with you doing your UBER damage ... what a freaking [Removed for Content]!  Guess they gave your necro Ice Comet, or maybe you are too dumb to realize what class you play.  Be sure to press P and make sure you are a necromancer and not a Wiz.</div><div> </div><div>Please don't post your imagined results either.  Real facts are necessary.  I am not going to debate if Mighty mouse could beat up Superman either.</div>

[Lukundo]

<div></div>Ah ah ah Aexon, I know you are probably out there typing out something stupid to post ... Don't forget, I want facts, not your fiction.

[Usild]

<div>Come on guys.....disagree, debate, etc....but no need to resort to personal attacks. </div>

[Lukundo]

<div></div><p>Never mind.  I figured out why he took the comment about the Warlock friend ... it is his wife. </p><p>In that case you should know that Woman are genetically predisposed to being bad at video games.  Now we all understand why you are doing more damage than the Warlock.</p><p>Aexon wrote in another post:</p><p>"Ok my wife and I duo as a 48 Necromancer and a 48 Warlock.  We try to group most of the time but at times do have to just fight on our own. As an example when we were 45 we were able to take the yard trash in Cazic Thule.  Which consisted of 40^^^ - 42^^^, obviously the 42s were a bit tougher but we were able to take them.  At 47 I was able to solo that yard trash, 42s being close fights for me as I would have to spend most of my health/power keeping the pet healed."</p><p>But also, from this post, I don't think you are doing the UBER damage you pretend.</p>

[Aexon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div>Ah ah ah Aexon, I know you are probably out there typing out something stupid to post ... Don't forget, I want facts, not your fiction.<hr></blockquote>You poor poor poor misguided twit... I would like some facts also.  You say you can not outdamage the T1 classes, well lets see it. Post some parses from some fights, I would love to see how incompetent you really are.  Hell dont even cast anything yourself, just send in your preferred DPS pet and lets see how it parses compared to the rest of the group.  My guess is you will see something like the following, mind you these are all FICTIONAL made up numbers....T1 Caster > 400DPST1 Scout > 380DPSNecro Assasin > 300DPSTank > 200DPSBard > 175DPSNecro > 120DPSHealer > 0DPSThis is generally what my group parses look like, not making this up.  My assasin is an Adept3 and my offensive stance is master 2. I maintain that our offensive pets do to much damage in there current form.  Now I will be happy to provide my parses for you cause I know what they show, pretty much exactly what I just demonstrated. Will you be willing to provide parses that show the opposite?PS dont try to be cute... you're not. You come across even more unintelligent.Aex</span></div>

[Lukundo]

<div></div>You were obviously writing while I was posting ... it is ok ... we understand now.

[Lukundo]

<div></div>Plus, I asked for facts and you gave me made up numbers.  I specifically asked you not give me your fiction and that is what you provide in support of your position. 

[Aexon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div>You were obviously writing while I was posting ... it is ok ... we understand now.<hr></blockquote>So do you refuse to post your parses?  It is funny how one sided this argument is. People who say summoners do to much damage post damange parses so that everyone can see. Then people say its a lie but never ever can they post any damage parses of their own to prove otherwise.It will not matter much anyways, the nerfbat is coming for summoners and there is little anyone can do about it. Our only hope is that they do something intelligent like nerf offensive pets dps only. It will be nice once the nerf is over cause then we will have less children playing summoners.Aex</span></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><div>Ranger - 1200</div><div>Wizard - 1187</div><div>Templar - 800</div><div>Necro Pet - 700</div><div>Guardian - 400</div><div>Necro - 320</div><div> </div><div>OK there is a parse I just posted.  Totally made up just now.</div><div> </div><div>See how useful parses are on a message board?</div><div> </div><div>The only data I trust are the ones the devs have and parsed themselves.</div><div> </div>

[Lukundo]

<div></div><p>You failed logic didn't you?  You can't prove a negative, but I could support it.  I could use my tank pet in defensive and cast a couple of Dots in a group and post the parse if you like.  I guess I could then scream that everyone else was doing more damage than my necro. </p><p>Someone posts a parse of a fight, whether people are afk, 3 levels higher, in full fabled, using master vs. app 1 spells or otherwise and you adopt these parses as the bible for all fights with all groups.</p><p>Furthermore, what is more shocking about you is that I actually believe you play a necro and want the class to be nerfed.  Aside from odd, you must be a masochist.</p><p>The bottom line is simple ... the longer the fight, the more damage the necro will do and where we really shine as a class due to sustained DPS and power efficiency.  However, back to the original point, in a normal exp group, a Wiz casts one spell and for the rest of the few seconds the mob is alive, you will not do as much damage as that one spell, and that is the way it is supposed to be.  No nerf needed here ... please keep moving.</p>

[Aviral]

<div></div><p>Parses are Incorrect 99% of the time and are absolutely useless. Only time they come close is in a solo situation against same type of mobs with same class.</p><p> </p><p>Did you account for all the added bonus of debuffs, buffs that increase damage to each person.</p><p>Did you account for DS, proc that can be indirect damage added to your damage and not someone elses.</p><p>Did that wizzy get his ice comet off just before the mob die or did he just miss getting it off or did it get resisted that will mess up the parses.</p><p>Pets are not outdamageing Players, Parsers don't take out the damage from the 17 swarm pets a necro can have out that if named same as pet get attributed to pets damage also take out all procs etc off them too, Swarms are a necro's ice comet and in long fights do extreme damage at the cost of takign time and ability to die early.</p><p>Necro's can't burst damage, we are a consistent damage through out the fight.</p><p>Was said the difference between T1/T2 was small in a short fight parsers can't even come close to accurate with spells being missed cuz of premature deaths causing missed calculated data.</p><p>I regularly group with wizzy/warlocks in my guild and they always smoke me in short battles but in long battles i am always beating them unless AE's are taking my pets out.</p><p>AA bugs are also currently distorting any parsers of high end stuff, 100% chance to crit will falsify the data quickly.</p><p>And as has been said over and over that Quality of spells and players ability will change the results of parsers.</p><p> </p><p>This parser and BS posting needs to stops it is useless. Nothing is wrong with the classes other then minor bugs. Damages are around where they should be and no parser will be able to prove it you just have to see the result and not watch the numbers to determine it.</p><p>70 necro</p>

[Aexon]

KBern you make an excellent point... These parses prove nothing...  But with that I will go ahead and parse a fight that in my mind sums up where Necromancers are currently.  This is from a T5 dragon fight in Cove of Decay I believe.<BR><BR>***REMOVED DUE TO REQUIRING SCRIPT TO VIEW PICTURE***<BR><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>03-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 PM</span>

[Lukundo]

<div></div><p>uhhhhh ... what kind of exp group is that?  You are showing me a raid parse to demonstrate how you out damage every other class in exp groups?  That is odd.  I think I wrote, after you told me I must "suck" if I couldn't outdamage every other class in a group:  "Please post a screen shot of you and your group fighting along with a parse from that fight with you doing your UBER damage ... what a freaking [Removed for Content]!  Guess they gave your necro Ice Comet, or maybe you are too dumb to realize what class you play.  Be sure to press P and make sure you are a necromancer and not a Wiz." -- Notice I asked for a screenshot so I could ge tthe names of the horrible players that are outdamaged by you.</p><p>In fact, you even went so far as to tell me: "Cause as far as I can tell every time I have ever grouped with ANYONE I can outdamage them easily unless of course they are another summoner" </p><p>As for your new data, please see my earlier post where I wrote:</p><p>"As for raiding, once again, many things will affect who does what amount of damage, but one important thing to note is that most Mage classes intentionally limit the amount of damage they do so as not to get aggro throughout a fight.  However, when it comes time to burn the mob down ... it is the Mage and Scouts that are doing the insane dps.  Necros are sustained dps.  I can offer no more during the burn the mob down phase than I have offered the rest of the fight.   If my DPS is at or near the top, then it is because I played my class very well."  -- I too will be at or near the top in raid damage.</p><p>Bottom line:  You are a [Removed for Content] ... (I tried to give you a way out when I found out you were coming to the defense of your wife, I could have understood that but give up now.) ... you will not "outdamage" EVERYONE easily in a normal exp group and everyone has already indicated that raids are much different, including my previous post.</p>

[Kokapeli]

<div></div><blockquote><p>"In that case you should know that Woman are genetically predisposed to being bad at video games.  Now we all understand why you are doing more damage than the Warlock."</p><p> </p><p>This quote is absolute gold. </p><p> </p><p> </p></blockquote>

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div>Yeah that quote rocks.  Its kinda funny that his friend is actually his wife.. What a bum...  I have a low level necro atm and i know that when it comes to soloing in EL next to wizards and locks, they absolutely destroy things where i can just kill pretty quick with my necro.  My main character is an SK who raided often before i parked him.  On most raids necros were up there on the list, but never always tops.  If there is a nerf to the pets i think it will be minimal.  Say 15% or something in DPS.  Heck I would trade that if they could up the ammount that my lifetaps heal me for :smileyhappy:

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Aexon wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div>Ah ah ah Aexon, I know you are probably out there typing out something stupid to post ... Don't forget, I want facts, not your fiction.<hr></blockquote>You poor poor poor misguided twit... I would like some facts also.  You say you can not outdamage the T1 classes, well lets see it. Post some parses from some fights, I would love to see how incompetent you really are.  Hell dont even cast anything yourself, just send in your preferred DPS pet and lets see how it parses compared to the rest of the group.  My guess is you will see something like the following, mind you these are all FICTIONAL made up numbers....T1 Caster > 400DPST1 Scout > 380DPSNecro Assasin > 300DPSTank > 200DPSBard > 175DPSNecro > 120DPSHealer > 0DPSThis is generally what my group parses look like, not making this up.  My assasin is an Adept3 and my offensive stance is master 2. I maintain that our offensive pets do to much damage in there current form.  Now I will be happy to provide my parses for you cause I know what they show, pretty much exactly what I just demonstrated. Will you be willing to provide parses that show the opposite?PS dont try to be cute... you're not. You come across even more unintelligent.Aex</span></div><hr></blockquote>This is probably the most accurate depiction of the problem that I've seen... taken to scale as we level up... even at L70 the scale holds true.No, we don't overwealm any other class from either perspective... Our pets don't do as much damage as a T1 scout. No, we don't individually do as much damage as other casting classes...But the sum total of a necro AND its DPS pet can outpace almost any other class given enough time.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Trinitymonger wrote:<div></div>I really hate that people cry "nurf" on any class.  But I will say that I've seen alot more cries since PVP was introduced.  I do not play PVP, that is not why I'm here.  I can understand that there are differences.  I just hope that SOE doesn't start to change classes based upon PVP complaints which will change the PVE as well. :smileysad:<hr></blockquote>Shh, this has nothing to do with PvP.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Magus` wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Boran wrote:First off DPS tree means nothing. It was intended as a VERY general guide but it was always stated that classes could move up and down dependant on many things (gear, mob, etc).<hr></blockquote>Wrong. While of course things can change by player, for instance if you compared an adept1/treasured sorcerer to a full master/fabled summoner, in general the tiers ARE meant to be consistent.However, as it stands, summoners are repeatedly doing T1 or higher DPS, which is NOT what we should be doing.My *pet* often has the highest DPS in any group, not even factoring in what I'm doing - there is DEFINITELY something wrong there.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry Mag, you're somewhat wrong. MG and BG both have come flat out and said that the DPT tiers were a general guideline they were going by when they redid classes. They said that in raids and other special case encounters the tiers might be completely different for any given encounter.Don't get me wrong though, I agree that summoners will take a DPS hit at some point. I just don't think it needs to be all that much.The pet changes they'd started to impliment might have been in the right direction.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><p>Necros should not be top DPS in raids. It would completely unbalance the game.</p><p>If Necros are top DPS in raids then you have essentially made Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers, and Assassins 100% useless for raids.</p><p>Why bring a wizard when you can bring a Necro and get 2x the utility, less aggro problems, better survivability, and more DPS.</p><p>I guess it's ok for Enchanters to outdmg Necros on raids aswell. Thats the same as what you are saying.</p><hr></blockquote>Oddly enough you must not raid much... Alot of necro utility goes out the window in raids. So if Wizards need to be at raids for DPS... what are necros needed for?

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><p>, necros will and should do more damage than most other DPS classes on a raid.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Ok if this were true then please give me one reason to bring a wizard on a raid. If wizards aren't out DPSing summoners then they are 100% useless, but the same is not true vice versa.<hr></blockquote><p>One reason?</p><p>Resists.</p><p>I can give more but you asked for one.</p><p>Figure it out.</p><hr></blockquote><p>ROLFLMAO... RESISTS... LOL</p><p>Notice how I said SUMMONERS not NECROMANCERS. Wow you really are speacial :smileysurprised:</p><p>The only reason to bring a Wizard on a raid over a SUMMONER is higher DPS.</p><p>SUMMONERS (lol) should be on the same lvl as Brigands when it comes to DPS. Using the not running out of power excuse is lame since 99% of raiders don't run out of power in raids anyways.</p><p>Before you use the DoT excuse as to why SUMMONERS should be higher in the raid parses let me inform you that Sorcerors actually have more DoT spells than Summoners.</p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><p>Necros should not be top DPS in raids. It would completely unbalance the game.</p><p>If Necros are top DPS in raids then you have essentially made Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers, and Assassins 100% useless for raids.</p><p>Why bring a wizard when you can bring a Necro and get 2x the utility, less aggro problems, better survivability, and more DPS.</p><p>I guess it's ok for Enchanters to outdmg Necros on raids aswell. Thats the same as what you are saying.</p><hr></blockquote>Oddly enough you must not raid much... Alot of necro utility goes out the window in raids. So if Wizards need to be at raids for DPS... what are necros needed for?<hr></blockquote>Umm... 100% FD, rezzing while healers are occupied, healing, resists,debuffs,buffs, just to name a few.

[kenji]

<div></div><p>i dont think any Sorcerer can have more dot than Necro.</p><p>4 dots from cast, 2 dumbfire dots (they dont share Pet buffs, so they are DoT to me), 1 dot from pet. name any class that have 7 dots please.</p><p>and for the utilities...</p><p>HP sharing / FD sorcerer dont have, Worst Rez spell in game, resists/buffs/debuffs that all casters got different versions.</p><p>but isnt that Wizard got dmg shield? dmg proc? have you include them to your Wiz dps when parsing? doubt it. really.</p>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:Sorry Mag, you're somewhat wrong. MG and BG both have come flat out and said that the DPT tiers were a general guideline they were going by when they redid classes. They said that in raids and other special case encounters the tiers might be completely different for any given encounter.Don't get me wrong though, I agree that summoners will take a DPS hit at some point. I just don't think it needs to be all that much.The pet changes they'd started to impliment might have been in the right direction.<hr></blockquote>Even if you call them general, we're still higher then we're supposed to be. You can not deny that - you can only try and claim that we're fine as is, but the fact remains we're doing more then we're supposed to.A nerf /will/ be coming, get ready for it.</span></div>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>btw, Brigand is The Mitigation Debuffer, not just a DPSer (Scout). unlike Necro, their utility hardly called The Anything Debuffer.</p><p>if Necro is barely same quality to do DPS as Brigand, why bring a Necro but not Brigand? /grin.</p><p>rantand Summoner and Sorcerer are just mages, arent they in the Myth of LU13 : Fighters should do similar tanking, Priest should do similar healing, and mages should do similar DPS? :lol/rant</p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><p> </p><p> name any class that have 7 dots please.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Wizard, they have 11 DoTs

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><p>btw, Brigand is The Mitigation Debuffer, not just a DPSer (Scout). unlike Necro, their utility hardly called The Anything Debuffer.</p><p>if Necro is barely same quality to do DPS as Brigand, why bring a Necro but not Brigand? /grin.</p><p>rantand Summoner and Sorcerer are just mages, arent they in the Myth of LU13 : Fighters should do similar tanking, Priest should do similar healing, and mages should do similar DPS? :lol/rant</p><hr></blockquote>Not really, according to the Devs necros should be doing equal dmg with rouges.

[kenji]

<div></div>11 DOTs that stack ? hm....would like to know.

[Slaymacht]

<div></div><div>I don't understand all the nerf crying, are these people that only solo?? i mean don't you want a powerful class in your group to be able to take down mobs, especially in a raid? What are we balancing by nerfing classes? We are all helping each other in groups and raids , stop looking at parsers, so what if someone did a little more damage then you.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[kenji]

<div></div>the concept behind is, i dont want my class being underpowered in any given situation. my class should pwn others , but parsers tell me the truth is some classes DPS higher than me, and i feel my class useless. please nerf that so i could get a spot in a 24-men raid.

[Senen74]

<div></div>For those saying Sorcers just need a way to manage agro and will get more dps are wrong.  I play in a raid guild with the ideal grp setup troub/paladin for hate debuffing and crit chance etc.  I as a warlock can full burn every fight have almost all M1 spells push upwards of 1.1k dps on single targets and 2k + on aoe targets depending on the number of mobs in the encounter.  With that said our guild necro and conjuror with m1 pets and mostly m1 skills can and do out dps me on almost every fight single target and aoe that is fact, and should not be happening.  You can say all you want that the dps tiers were ment to be flexible, but 2 classes that have so much utility and listed as tier 2, should not be out performing Warlocks/Wizards by 10-20% margins consistently as I've seen.  My guild summoners openly admit there class is over powered its nice that some of you, even here agree that the problem exist.  For those that don't you either don't know how to play your class effectively or are naturaly trying to keep your class from being brought back in line reguardless of how it effects the grand scheme of game ballance between classes. 

[Tokam]

<div></div><p>To be honest, if Im not out dpsing a warlock on a single target x 4 be there AoE or not then I really am not doing my job properly. Or I was thick and did not joust the pet correctly. But also that is entirely not the point of the OP so please read the thread before crying 'nerf them.' The reasons why we are good at single target raid mobs has been given time and time again in this thread so I don't feel inclined to type them out once more.</p><p>I do believe that tonight I am off to HoF for hat updates and I think we are raiding the instance for necklace (again, does everyone spend half their play time in HoF / Lab / No Content these days or is it just me? eeks) so I will boot up ye oldy parser and add some real numbers to this thread, if it doesnt get locked first.</p>

[TofuPatty]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Slaymacht wrote:<div></div><div>I don't understand all the nerf crying, are these people that only solo?? i mean don't you want a powerful class in your group to be able to take down mobs, especially in a raid?</div><hr></blockquote>Ideally yes I do but there is a limit of 24 in a raid and 6 in a group - so there is a legitimate point to be made that if a class is more powerful than others, the less powerful classes become much less desired for raids or groups.<span></span><span><blockquote><hr><div>What are we balancing by nerfing classes? We are all helping each other in groups and raids , stop looking at parsers, so what if someone did a little more damage then you.</div><hr></blockquote>Because it's the way of Sony and mmorpgs in general.  It's far easier to balance a game by nerfing classes down than by balancing the whole game upwards to be based around the top classes.  I've played a ranger as a main since release of eq2, I don't get very into parsing myself personally, but do know where I parse/parsed pre-DoF, I've frequently grouped with and have seen parses of necros and conjs since release.  All 3 classes were fairly gimped and not very impressive dps at all pre -LU13, and from LU13-LU19 all 3 classes were topping dps charts.  Since LU20 rangers have been nerfed down, leaving conjs and necros topping the charts most of the time.  I fully expected a nerf to my class ever since DoF, though in typical sony fashion rangers were yo-yo'd from way too underpowered to way too overpowered back down to way too underpowered.  In all honesty I hope the nerf bat doesn't swing too hard on necros and conjs - I have an alt of each - but I can see it coming, just as I saw it coming for rangers.</span></span>/shrug, wizzies will still keep root nuking ^^^ yellows and claim to be underpowered.<div></div>

[Fle]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>If im using adept 3 or master spells and another class is using app4 or adept 1 then my dmg is going to be just as good or better and that's how it should be. It's about gear and levels, not just ohh im a wizard i should be number 1 dps. If you can't grasp that then tough.</p><p>Ohh and resists need to be added into the equation as well.</p><p>Message Edited by Fleet on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Fleet on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:05 AM</span></p>

[Aexon]

<div></div>Last night I watched my parser as we went through 2 instances in DoF, Hidden Cache and Scornfeather(?). It was a group of 5 a 58 Assasin, 5x Shadow Knight,  57 Necro (me), 5x Bruiser, 5x Templar. I think what many people posted is very true about us, we have a very steady damage flow.  I mean I can pretty much gurantee what my DPS will be for every single fight as long as I do my part.  Looking at each fight last night my damage and my pets looked like this.Assasin Pet (Adept 3, Master 2 offense) ~250 DPS >> This ranged from 200 to on extreme cases when he would get some great shots in 400.Me ~100 DPS >> Some fights I would only get around 60DPS and others if I really went to town I could get about 200.Dogs ~50 DPS >> On fights that lasted a bit longer I would use the dogs and would say they were right about 50.Ghastly ~ 25DPS >> Same as dogs I would throw this when it was a named fight or somthign that lasted a bit longer.Now when I averaged my damage out for the night it was right around 400 DPS consistently, and I truly think that is one thing that is nice about being a necromancer.  We are extremely consistent on what we do. The assasin would be all over the board, he would do 600DPS one fight, maybe only 400DPS the next and then turn around and have a big 600DPS fight.  I must say he was one of the best DPS classes I have ever seen play. He did outdamage me a lot of the time last night, but for a portion of the time I outdamaged him and the other part we were extremely close.Like someone else said though numbers dont mean anything, the assasin could of been taking a snooze when he got his low numbers.  I can only account for myself as I know what I was doing throughout the evening.   Take them for what you will but this is what I tend to see when I group.I also would like to apologize for the flame war that insued yesterday, as that got out of hand and was partly my fault, sorry.  I do think we are out of balance at the time and do need to be adjusted, I just wish we could get some more utility for when we loose some of our DPS. I also will say that my wife does not play her warlock poorly because I have played her class also and can not get the numbers that I can with my Necro. I guess Necromancers just must be easy classes to play.Aex<div></div><p>Message Edited by Aexon on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:40 AM</span></p>

[Deson]

<span><blockquote><hr>Senen74 wrote:<div></div>For those saying Sorcers just need a way to manage agro and will get more dps are wrong.  I play in a raid guild with the ideal grp setup troub/paladin for hate debuffing and crit chance etc.  I as a warlock can full burn every fight have almost all M1 spells push upwards of 1.1k dps on single targets and 2k + on aoe targets depending on the number of mobs in the encounter.  With that said our guild necro and conjuror with m1 pets and mostly m1 skills can and do out dps me on almost every fight single target and aoe that is fact, and should not be happening.  You can say all you want that the dps tiers were ment to be flexible, but 2 classes that have so much utility and listed as tier 2, should not be out performing Warlocks/Wizards by 10-20% margins consistently as I've seen.  My guild summoners openly admit there class is over powered its nice that some of you, even here agree that the problem exist.  For those that don't you either don't know how to play your class effectively or are naturaly trying to keep your class from being brought back in line reguardless of how it effects the grand scheme of game ballance between classes. <hr></blockquote>You're a warlock o single targets, how much do they beat you by?Also, you say 10-20%, are you accounting for thebuffs said group provides? With an assassin pet, troub and Pally (I assume another class in the group gives a group melee proc) I'm all but garaunteed to beat any sorc by virtue of the buffs. The problem is though, that's not my dps, that's the indirect dps of those classes so said by SOE.I neither agree nor disagree that Necro's in particular do too much damage but, the dev's haven't said we do and even decided to hold of on planned adjustments. We also havae a bugged achievement that gives us a 100% chance to crit so, if you have all master 1's by this point I assume your summoner guildmates have that  AP at least a few ranks in and that skews the result tremendously.  Alot of people complaining are only talking about raids where perfect groups are the rule. I've seen very few posts talking of regular group content which, ostensibly is what this game is primarily balanced around. I don't raid,  I don't see the issue because I don't and wouldn't like to be hamstrung just for that one scenario.If they find a novel way to fix it like they did with dumbfire pets great! That change didn't really affect me at all.</span><div></div>

[Solaran_X]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><p>Necros should not be top DPS in raids. It would completely unbalance the game.</p><p>If Necros are top DPS in raids then you have essentially made Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers, and Assassins 100% useless for raids.</p><p>Why bring a wizard when you can bring a Necro and get 2x the utility, less aggro problems, better survivability, and more DPS.</p><p>I guess it's ok for Enchanters to outdmg Necros on raids aswell. Thats the same as what you are saying.</p><hr></blockquote>Oddly enough you must not raid much... Alot of necro utility goes out the window in raids. So if Wizards need to be at raids for DPS... what are necros needed for?<hr></blockquote>Umm... 100% FD, rezzing while healers are occupied, healing, resists,debuffs,buffs, just to name a few.<hr></blockquote><p>100% Feign Death (Deathly Pallor): 15 minute reuse currently. In LU21, it's being reduced to 5 minutes. Sorry, but even at 5 minutes the reuse timer is too long to be of any true utility.</p><p>Rezzing while Healers are Occupied: Yep. We can do one rez every minute. And we need reagents to cast our rez spell (not that the Essense of Anguish is hard to come by).</p><p>Healing: At L68, I can heal for roughly 1.5K HP once every 45 seconds (between Displace Life and Animist's Bond - I think that's the AA pet-to-PC heal). I'm such a good healer...</p><p>Resists: We buff up Disease resists by a couple hundred points. Not very impressive. Actually, it's pathetic since a T7 potion can probably do better resist buffs than us.</p><p>Buffs: Wow...we can buff STA and INT by 68 (Adept I Teachings of the Underworld) and increase the Power pool by under 300 (Adapt I Favor of the Infernal - I believe). Nice L68 Necromancer buffage.</p><p>Last night, I tried the Skywatcher ring event because it was up. Previously, I've seen a L66 Conjuror solo this event when everything was blue to him, so I figured 'how hard can this be?' Well...I died once clearing the three groups of two L63 ^^ Heroic mobs. And then the Skywatcher proceeded to eat my pet and me three times before I asked for help.</p><p>Yeah...we're overpowered. A Conjuror two levels below me with comparable gear and spells can solo a named ring event that destroys me at L68.</p>

[Solaran_X]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Aexon wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div>Ah ah ah Aexon, I know you are probably out there typing out something stupid to post ... Don't forget, I want facts, not your fiction.<hr></blockquote>You poor poor poor misguided twit... I would like some facts also.  You say you can not outdamage the T1 classes, well lets see it. Post some parses from some fights, I would love to see how incompetent you really are.  Hell dont even cast anything yourself, just send in your preferred DPS pet and lets see how it parses compared to the rest of the group.  My guess is you will see something like the following, mind you these are all FICTIONAL made up numbers....T1 Caster > 400DPST1 Scout > 380DPSNecro Assasin > 300DPSTank > 200DPSBard > 175DPSNecro > 120DPSHealer > 0DPSThis is generally what my group parses look like, not making this up.  My assasin is an Adept3 and my offensive stance is master 2. I maintain that our offensive pets do to much damage in there current form.  Now I will be happy to provide my parses for you cause I know what they show, pretty much exactly what I just demonstrated. Will you be willing to provide parses that show the opposite?PS dont try to be cute... you're not. You come across even more unintelligent.Aex</span></div><hr></blockquote>This is probably the most accurate depiction of the problem that I've seen... taken to scale as we level up... even at L70 the scale holds true.No, we don't overwealm any other class from either perspective... Our pets don't do as much damage as a T1 scout. No, we don't individually do as much damage as other casting classes...<strong>But the sum total of a necro AND its DPS pet can outpace almost any other class given enough time.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>And the only time we have enough time to be T1 DPS is during specific raid environments. Specifically a raid mob with non extrordinary resists and no PBAoE attacks.</p><p>Now...why is this about the only time we excel as DPS?</p><p>It's easy.</p><p>First, with no major resists beyond the normal our pitiful DoTs (which cost less than comparable Wizard/Warlock nukes, but also do considerably less damage) can actually run their full duration (we have a 36 second DoT, a 24 second DoT/snare that often breaks before doing much damage, a 12 second DoT, and a 9 second DoT. Plus Swarm of Bats, which is grey and was never upgraded past ToN). Our PBAoE lifetap is basically worthless if there are mezzed adds. And our single target lifetap is decent now. But still, our spells have nothing on a Wizard or Warlock using comparable level spells.</p><p>Second, the mob needs <strong>NO </strong>PBAoE spell. Why? Because our pet and limited pets have a mind of their own. Our limited pets have such a little amount of hit points that one PBAoE from a mob (even just a simple XP-grinding ^^ or ^^^ Heroic) will destroy all three of our limited pet spells (four if you include the bone snake we get from the unupgraded and now grey con Drawing of Souls - I don't even think that pet scales anymore) in one cast. And our main DPS pet (Nightshade at L60, the Assassin-class pet) can only take two PBAoEs on average before it dies. Oh...I know...let's have the tank flip the mob! Great...except that our pets like to run around to the front of the mob very often.</p><p>Outside of the most specific of raid environments, Necromancer DPS is abyssmal.</p>

[Aexon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Solaran_X wrote:<div></div>Last night, I tried the Skywatcher ring event because it was up. Previously, I've seen a L66 Conjuror solo this event when everything was blue to him, so I figured 'how hard can this be?' Well...I died once clearing the three groups of two L63 ^^ Heroic mobs. And then the Skywatcher proceeded to eat my pet and me three times before I asked for help.<p>Yeah...we're overpowered. A Conjuror two levels below me with comparable gear and spells can solo a named ring event that destroys me at L68.</p><hr></blockquote>How do you think just about every other class feels when you post this?  Oh a necromancer cant solo a HEROIC GROUP mob 5 levels below them, the sky is falling and the world is coming to an end.  I dont know from personal expierence but have been told that there are alot of classes that can barely beat heroic monsters 10 levels below them.  Some classes have problems soloing the solo content and you complain that you can not take a heroic mob 5 levels below you?  Clearly there are some balance issues.</span></div>

[Solaran_X]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aexon wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Solaran_X wrote:<div></div>Last night, I tried the Skywatcher ring event because it was up. <strong>Previously, I've seen a L66 Conjuror solo this event when everything was blue to him</strong>, so I figured 'how hard can this be?' Well...I died once clearing the three groups of two L63 ^^ Heroic mobs. And then the Skywatcher proceeded to eat my pet and me three times before I asked for help.<p><strong>Yeah...we're overpowered. A Conjuror two levels below me with comparable gear and spells can solo a named ring event that destroys me at L68.</strong></p><hr></blockquote>How do you think just about every other class feels when you post this?  Oh a necromancer cant solo a HEROIC GROUP mob 5 levels below them, the sky is falling and the world is coming to an end.  I dont know from personal expierence but have been told that there are alot of classes that can barely beat heroic monsters 10 levels below them.  Some classes have problems soloing the solo content and you complain that you can not take a heroic mob 5 levels below you?  Clearly there are some balance issues.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Did you miss the entire point of the post? People claim us (Necromancers) are overpowered and need to be nerfed. So I pointed out that a Conjuror <strong>TWO LEVELS BELOW ME</strong> (a L66 Conjuror) soloed the entire event without a problem. These are <strong>BLUE CON TRIPLE UP HEROIC AND GROUPED DOUBLE UP HEROICS</strong>, and he soloed them without a problem. I, on the other hand, am two levels higher and get killed after the encounter goes green.

[Aexon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Solaran_X wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><blockquote><hr><div><span><blockquote><hr><div></div></blockquote></span></div></blockquote><strong></strong><hr>Outside of the most specific of raid environments, Necromancer DPS is abyssmal.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Sorry for the strange quote... some reason it would not format for me.I really dont know how you can say our DPS is abyssmal except in raids.  Yes I agree in raids our DPS excels but for me even in groups I can almost always stay close or if not exceed the T1 counterparts.  I see 3 kinds of fights in a group, 2 of them we can do very good damage and the other we are not really geared towards.1st encounter:Any fight that lasts less then a few seconds, our pet will maybe get 1 or 2 hits in and we will be lucky to get a single spell off.  Obviously scouts with there quick CAs are geared for knocking those low greens down fast in a group.2nd encounter:A ^^^ monster conning blue or higher.  Once the fight extends past 30 seconds we really start to show our damage skills.  Pet goes in and stays on the mob, then we use our lifetap, DOTs and Debuffs.  If you have lich up you get a free 150 damage on each cast.  These fights I always score really well on and can stay very competitive with even the best DPS classes.3rd encounter:A swarm of monsters conning blue or higher.  I immediatly start my AOE DOT and send in the pet, generally the monsters dont last long on these fights. I just keep Assisting the tank and sending the pet in. As my AOE DOT and my PBAOE refresh I cast them.   Sometimes I can really do a lot of damage this way as my aoe is hitting multiple monsters, but my pet does less and if I dont get good timing on my AOEs I have a greater potential to miss my DPS.So once again I just dont understand how people can say we dont do good damage in normal groups.  Maybe I am playing different than everyone else, but the 2nd encounter and the 3rd encounter are the most common fights I run into when I am grouping. The majority of the time I can stay extremely competitive with my DPS.Maybe you could explain what your group fights look like and we could see why your DPS is so abysmal, cause I just dont see it.Aex</span></div>

[Aexon]

<span><blockquote><hr>Solaran_X wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Did you miss the entire point of the post? People claim us (Necromancers) are overpowered and need to be nerfed. So I pointed out that a Conjuror <strong>TWO LEVELS BELOW ME</strong> (a L66 Conjuror) soloed the entire event without a problem. These are <strong>BLUE CON TRIPLE UP HEROIC AND GROUPED DOUBLE UP HEROICS</strong>, and he soloed them without a problem. I, on the other hand, am two levels higher and get killed after the encounter goes green.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Yes I got your post and I was trying explain how that comes across to other classes.  Yes I agree conjurers are overpowered as ARE NECROMANCERS.Cheers,Aex</span><div></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Aexon wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Solaran_X wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Did you miss the entire point of the post? People claim us (Necromancers) are overpowered and need to be nerfed. So I pointed out that a Conjuror <strong>TWO LEVELS BELOW ME</strong> (a L66 Conjuror) soloed the entire event without a problem. These are <strong>BLUE CON TRIPLE UP HEROIC AND GROUPED DOUBLE UP HEROICS</strong>, and he soloed them without a problem. I, on the other hand, am two levels higher and get killed after the encounter goes green.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Yes I got your post and I was trying explain how that comes across to other classes.  Yes I agree conjurers are overpowered as ARE NECROMANCERS.Cheers,Aex</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Beserkers can beat that encounter easier than necros, so can monks, so can warlocks.</p><p>Heroic groups of green are cake for some classes, but will beat down a necro pretty harsh depending on tactics used, resists, etc.</p><p>Dont try to make that something others cannot do.</p><p>Go watch a fury or a warden solo sometime and easily take blue heroics....may not be fast, but they have no issues doing this.</p><p>Some of you need to take your blinders off and widen that nerf aim some because some of the crap you spew that necros can do, soooo many other classes can also.</p>

[Senen74]

<div><p>100% Feign Death (Deathly Pallor): 15 minute reuse currently. In LU21, it's being reduced to 5 minutes. Sorry, but even at 5 minutes the reuse timer is too long to be of any true utility.</p><p>Rezzing while Healers are Occupied: Yep. We can do one rez every minute. And we need reagents to cast our rez spell (not that the Essense of Anguish is hard to come by).</p><p>Healing: At L68, I can heal for roughly 1.5K HP once every 45 seconds (between Displace Life and Animist's Bond - I think that's the AA pet-to-PC heal). I'm such a good healer...</p><p>Resists: We buff up Disease resists by a couple hundred points. Not very impressive. Actually, it's pathetic since a T7 potion can probably do better resist buffs than us.</p><p>Buffs: Wow...we can buff STA and INT by 68 (Adept I Teachings of the Underworld) and increase the Power pool by under 300 (Adapt I Favor of the Infernal - I believe). Nice L68 Necromancer buffage.</p><p>Last night, I tried the Skywatcher ring event because it was up. Previously, I've seen a L66 Conjuror solo this event when everything was blue to him, so I figured 'how hard can this be?' Well...I died once clearing the three groups of two L63 ^^ Heroic mobs. And then the Skywatcher proceeded to eat my pet and me three times before I asked for help.</p><p>Yeah...we're overpowered. A Conjuror two levels below me with comparable gear and spells can solo a named ring event that destroys me at L68</p><p> </p><p>What I see here is look we get all this great stuff realy helpfull on raids but lets down play it because I cant do it every 30 secs so its not a decided factor on raid success lol, whatever our necros have saved our bacon plenty being able to rez healers mid combat on boss fights.  Also the idea that Necro's have this great sustained DPS and Sorcers don't if your in any credible raid guild your going to be stacked in a grp with enough power regen to last the duration of the hardest fights.  I have  36 FT not counting the 10 from Traits + troub/illusionist buffs.  I never go oop and if need be I have 2 canni's to convert health to power back to back to keep churning out dps so that old notion needs to be put to rest.  Back on point its obvious Necros and Conjurors to a lesser extent bring great utility to raids I don't have to list all the things they bring because there all over these forums, the ones of you still living in the dillusion that your class if fine haveing all this and being top dps will have your reckoning just as every other class before you has.</p></div>

[SirFreakus]

<div>I will admit, I haven't read every post in this tread... but a lot of what I did read I find hilarious.  I am not going to point fingers or call so-and-so stupid... just share what I have witnessed in my own 'parsing'.</div><div> </div><div>I agree that parsing is not an exact science.  I have compared parses of the same battles from different characters and gotten different numbers.  It is not an exact thing.  One thing I do know is that it gives a good base for comparison.  I parse all most all of the time.  I love doing 'uber' dps.  I have found what works best for me in order to get the most out of what I can do.  Pretty much all of my combat spells are between Adept 3 and Master 2... with most being Master 1.  It is very rare when I am EVER out DPSed... at all.  On very short fights where the Wizards toss out a big nuke, yes... but if the combat lasts over 15 sec I am usually on top.</div><div>I have noticed that I do 33% to 50% more than Wizards in most circumstances.  (If they try to do more, they pull agro and die... Pet classes are the best at agro management as our agro is 'kept' in differnent places for awhile) Skill may play a large factor here, but I have grouped with many wizards and quite a few I would consider good players.</div><div> </div><div>I would like to clarify my point in saying that Necromancers (and Conj's) have the potential for the highest DPS in the game currently.  (In my opinion)  A lot of reaching that is spell level and ability of the player.</div><div> </div><div>We are T1 DPS... and I plan on enjoying it while it lasts.</div>

[Aexon]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>SirFreakus wrote:<div>We are T1 DPS... and I plan on enjoying it while it lasts.</div><hr></blockquote>Thank you, that pretty much sums up exactly what I am seeing also.  I think you may of summed it up better, but I pretty much have to agree with you completely.  And yes I agree I will continue to enjoy being the best DPS as long as I can.Cheers,Aex</span></div>

[Lukundo]

<div></div><p>This thread should have ended a long time ago.  The people with sense are simply saying the same thing, i.e., necros can be the highest, or one of the highest damage dealers on long epic fights given the correct mob type, are slightly below scout/mage classes in normal exp groups and can solo effectively. </p><p>To those of you that say things like " It is very rare when I am EVER out DPSed" I have no idea what game you play or what scout/mage classes you happen to group with, but I am sure they are all in awe of you and your massive dps.  As has been stated, the dps tiers are not hard lines.  As tier 2 dps you will at times out damage a tier 1 dps, a tier 1 dps will also do a tremendous amount more damage than you in a later fight, those are the breaks.  Have the Wizard in your normal group cast Ice Nova or the assassin use Decapitate, regardless of what you do the remainder of that fight you will not catch their dps from that one spell ... that is why they are T1 dps.  </p><p>Our two main DoTs were not upgraded for T7, the assassin pet that everyone claims is doing too much damage is a level 60 pet with no upgrade, and still you people think we are overpowered?  I am not saying we are underpowered, but certainly not overpowered.  The nature of the necro class is slow sustained dps and never being out of power.  In exchange, we give up burst damage.  This same fact means that the longer the fight the more damage the necro can and will do.</p><p>I also love this quote:  "I have noticed that I do 33% to 50% more than Wizards in most circumstances." Just one question, how, especially considering your intelligence on your toon is about 100 below mine?  Never mind, don't even try to answer that. I have read enough from people that simply throw out fictitious statistics.</p><p>In fact, I am so UBER that at level 70 I can solo the Halls of Fate with little to no problem, and if I group I do 210 to 250% more damage than all of the other people in my group combined.  In raids, I sometimes tank the Epic x4 with my pet while the other people who come to the raid sit back and relax while I burn it down with my overpowered DoTs and my dumbfire pets.  As if that wasn't enough, when all heck breaks loose and I am the only one left alive I rez and full heal everyone.   I really hope they beat the crap out of my class with the nerf bat because this is really getting too easy.</p>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><p>Necros should not be top DPS in raids. It would completely unbalance the game.</p><p>If Necros are top DPS in raids then you have essentially made Wizards, Warlocks, Rangers, and Assassins 100% useless for raids.</p><p>Why bring a wizard when you can bring a Necro and get 2x the utility, less aggro problems, better survivability, and more DPS.</p><p>I guess it's ok for Enchanters to outdmg Necros on raids aswell. Thats the same as what you are saying.</p><hr></blockquote>Oddly enough you must not raid much... Alot of necro utility goes out the window in raids. So if Wizards need to be at raids for DPS... what are necros needed for?<hr></blockquote>Umm... 100% FD, rezzing while healers are occupied, healing, resists,debuffs,buffs, just to name a few.<hr></blockquote>You didn't just name a few, you named them all.... Hearts... thats the third, IMHO direct power transfer is better... and we don't get that some other DPS class does.So, like I said, we don't have vastly superior utility in raids.

[Kokapeli]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div><p>In fact, I am so UBER that at level 70 I can solo the Halls of Fate with little to no problem, and if I group I do 210 to 250% more damage than all of the other people in my group combined.  In raids, I sometimes tank the Epic x4 with my pet while the other people who come to the raid sit back and relax while I burn it down with my overpowered DoTs and my dumbfire pets.  As if that wasn't enough, when all heck breaks loose and I am the only one left alive I rez and full heal everyone.   I really hope they beat the crap out of my class with the nerf bat because this is really getting too easy.</p><hr></blockquote>I blew a snot bubble I laughed so hard at this.

[Usild]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kokapeli wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>I blew a snot bubble I laughed so hard at this.<hr></blockquote>Bah...I had a mental image of that and it made me choke on my soda.  Thanks a lot!

[Truturi]

<div></div>Here's how I deal with the scout class...Anytime I group with one thats running a parser I do the following.- I turn off my pets buffs except for offensive<span></span> stance- I lay low by sending my pet in a little lateThey always end up on top of the stats. And then<span> say "wow I'm out DPS'ing a Necro!" </span><span>:smileywink:</span>Man, those scouts are dumb...I love messing with dumb ppl, Muhaha<div></div>

[bluegod]

<blockquote><hr>SirFreakus wrote:<div>  Pretty much all of my combat spells are between Adept 3 and Master 2... with most being Master 1.  It is very rare when I am EVER out DPSed... at all.  On very short fights where the Wizards toss out a big nuke, yes... but if the combat lasts over 15 sec I am usually on top.</div><div>I have noticed that I do 33% to 50% more than Wizards in most circumstances.</div><hr></blockquote>All ad3, m1 or m2... how typical is that?! As a casual player, most of my spells are adept 1 and I've still got quite a ways before I reach my Int cap. I would guess that's the case for the vast majority of necros out there. So who cares what the l33t players parse? You're the exceptions, not the rule. Do the wizzies that you outdamage also have all ad3+ spells? Where's their int compared to yours?/shrug I guess my point is that the peeps with the uber spells are posting about their t1 dps-age as if it's the norm for the necro class but don't seem to consider that the lvl spells they have make a huge difference in the damage they do.

[ShadowDragon32]

<div></div>I guess im just kimp.  I usually parse in groups pretty high, but usually below the ranger/wizards.  I dont really care if my long hall raid DPS is nerfed 15% or whatever it is people are saying as long as my group dps is the same.  Just my 2 copper

[Deson]

<span><blockquote><hr>ShadowDragon32 wrote:<div></div>... I usually parse in groups pretty high, but usually below the ranger/wizards.  I dont really care if my long hall raid DPS is nerfed 15% or whatever it is people are saying as long as my group dps is the same.  Just my 2 copper<hr></blockquote>What I wanted to say in just 2 sentences.</span><div></div>

[jjm6]

<div><p>buggy b or just  qa... anyway  necro pet problem</p><p> nerf or  bug question...I don't own the code so cant say what [Removed for Content] allowed this</p><p>Y'all say what ya going to do, but what about doing what you say and not messing other things up?</p><p>This was meant to bridge the gap for the testserver and the patched</p><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=9397&jump=true#M9397" target="_blank"><font color="#c8c1b5">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=9397&jump=true#M9397</font></a></p><p>we shouldn't post there unless we play there</p><p> pleaze try to organize for them,  by class... or something</p><p>Message Edited by jjm666 on <span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">03-23-2006</font></span><span class="time_text">09:16 PM</span></p></div>

[Davngr1]

<div></div><div>necros need to stop getting nurffed..the only reason that my pet takes agroo and parses so high is because i invested the time to adept 3 all my spells/buffs and level my AA's..if you dont do the same you suck and it's your fault..not your class.  any class i play im good at beacuse i put in the effort instead of making the group level me...lazy players suck..and taking my necro to the top of the parse IS NOT easy im given spells that pop out of sink with each other and i need to constantly evaluate every encounter..wether i should nuke(joke necros have no nukes), heal or stun...and all too often it goes unsaid, cause macros are too complicated for me, and dont make me a better player thus are useless to me....instead of crying that my grass is so green...go work on your own lawn NOOB!!</div>

[Yunga_511]

<div>tho have to agree with summoner nerf, me as a necro, 100% crit chance is broken, tho still parse highest in raids.</div><div> </div><div>all in all, when it comes down to it, doesnt matter what class u are, what spells u have, u just need to learn how to play your toon right, once u've done that, no nerfs required</div>

[Deson]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<div>tho have to agree with summoner nerf, me as a necro, 100% crit chance is broken, tho still parse highest in raids.</div><div> </div><div>all in all, when it comes down to it, doesnt matter what class u are, what spells u have, u just need to learn how to play your toon right, once u've done that, no nerfs required</div><hr></blockquote>100%crit rate has been fixed. As for parses, are you counting all the buffs on you when you see the numbers?</span><div></div>

[Yunga_511]

<div></div>all buffs are counted, usually the grp is Troub/dirge (Depending), Conjuror, illusionist, Necromancer,wizzard and a warlock/healer type, i NEVER get procs put on me unless they are grp ones in which case everyone shares the love, like i said before, comes down to how u wana play your toon

[Yirabeth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Lukundo wrote:<div></div><p>In that case you should know that Woman are genetically predisposed to being bad at video games.  Now we all understand why you are doing more damage than the Warlock.</p><hr></blockquote>Okay was all set to post facts in support of why a necro may outdamage another mage/scout class until I got to reading this far into the thread...Sexist comments like this aren't going to help the discussion at all, they just ruin your credibility. Because I'm a woman I'm a poor player? Sure, THAT must be the reason I am always a tad bit behind the sorcerors/rangers in my groups! Couldn't be because I don't raid.../boggleGame skill isn't based on GENETICS, it's based on the ability to learn from mistakes, the ability to apply observations, and the willingness to throw yourself into a situation and figure it out instead of whine.  I know women who are better at their classes than the men around them, and I know men who absolutely SUCK at what they play. The opposite is also true.  It's not their sex, it's their willingness to step outside the box and apply what they learn to what they do.The ONLY thing a woman is pregenetically inclined to do is give birth. Then again, the only thing a MAN is genetically inclined to do is make babies... all else is an open field, to be determined by the ability to work with the situation you're in.Stop using sex as an excuse for why someone is a good/bad player. It smacks of whine excuses as badly as the rest of the arguments against necros.** edit to add something pertinent to the 'real' discussion at hand --- I do believe attention to the sorceror's deaggro spells would go a long way in fixing the problem of their dps ability in most fights...~Yira</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Yirabeth on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:16 AM</span></p>

[Deson]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<div></div>all buffs are counted, usually the grp is Troub/dirge (Depending), Conjuror, illusionist, Necromancer,wizzard and a warlock/healer type, i NEVER get procs put on me unless they are grp ones in which case everyone shares the love, like i said before, comes down to how u wana play your toon<hr></blockquote></span>Reading comprehension failure on my part. Didn't see you say it was on raids.I assume you are using your scout pet though when you parse like that?Also, how substantial is your lead?<div></div>

[bezerker_]

<div>"To put it in perspective a bit....   how many summoners would be mad if bards or healers out damaged them?  OR if wizzies got a supperior pet than necros?  "nerfing" summoner dps is about balancing dps vs utility."</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Great statement, here is the problem necro's have very little utility in eq2 and wizard/warlock types have good utility. I am not so sure wizards/warlocks deserve to be magically put at the top fo the dps pile just because.</div><div> </div><div>IE sure pet is great but hey when you can root a mob and nuke it dead who needs a pet? There are plenty of variations that was just an example, but how good of dps is a necro doing compared to a wizard on a mob with alot of ae attacks? where is the necro utility? there is almsot none. Fear worthless, stun worthless etc..</div>

[Ruwin]

<div>Lukundo wrote:<div></div><p>In fact, I am so UBER that at level 70 I can solo the Halls of Fate with little to no problem, and if I group I do 210 to 250% more damage than all of the other people in my group combined.  In raids, I sometimes tank the Epic x4 with my pet while the other people who come to the raid sit back and relax while I burn it down with my overpowered DoTs and my dumbfire pets.  As if that wasn't enough, when all heck breaks loose and I am the only one left alive I rez and full heal everyone.   I really hope they beat the crap out of my class with the nerf bat because this is really getting too easy.</p>OMG this was funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Magu]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>bezerker_01 wrote:<div>"To put it in perspective a bit....   how many summoners would be mad if bards or healers out damaged them?  OR if wizzies got a supperior pet than necros?  "nerfing" summoner dps is about balancing dps vs utility."</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Great statement, here is the problem necro's have very little utility in eq2 and wizard/warlock types have good utility. I am not so sure wizards/warlocks deserve to be magically put at the top fo the dps pile just because.</div><div> </div><div>IE sure pet is great but hey when you can root a mob and nuke it dead who needs a pet? There are plenty of variations that was just an example, but how good of dps is a necro doing compared to a wizard on a mob with alot of ae attacks? where is the necro utility? there is almsot none. Fear worthless, stun worthless etc..</div><hr></blockquote>The pet is our utility, for the most part, which is what you're not seeing. It gives us a lot of solo power as well as other things - like off-tanking adds until the tank can get ahold of them or such.If you want T1 DPS, you should NOT be playing a Summoner. We're not supposed to be there, and we won't be for long.</span></div>

[Yunga_511]

<div>mainly use my Mage pet only on multi'encounter mobs, but on single i bring out the scout pet......i like switching between.....and about the DPS vs Utility, dont know why people complain....a grp is 6 people joined  together to kill stuff, a raid is 12-24 people to kill harder stuff, WHY ARE WE FIGHTING?:smileytongue:</div>

[Luna Ithil]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr><div>Great statement, here is the problem necro's have very little utility in eq2 and wizard/warlock types have good utility. I am not so sure wizards/warlocks deserve to be magically put at the top fo the dps pile just because.</div><div> </div><div>IE sure pet is great but hey when you can root a mob and nuke it dead who needs a pet? There are plenty of variations that was just an example, but how good of dps is a necro doing compared to a wizard on a mob with alot of ae attacks? where is the necro utility? there is almsot none. Fear worthless, stun worthless etc..</div><p></p><hr><p>I am sorry to say this, and i realy dont want to get to entalgeld in the who "NERF THEM ALL" discussion, but what you are saying isent true, or at best an overstatement.</p><p>Wizards got a small mana trasfere -My gues it that i can give the tank one ekstra taunt or the healer one ekstra heal, so in a realy realy close race i can tip the balance but i have only seen it once ot twise.</p><p>Wizards can root. We got two roots, one AE, and one singel target root. But roots are unstabil, they get resisted, they break and they have recast timers. So roots are not some wondertool for soloing. If a mob gets close to me i will most likely die, i dont have a 100% FD to save me. (wizards get a small ward that trigger at 30% health).  </p><p>To say that Necros comes off worse in the utility game then wizard is imho not true. Wizards get evac and power transfere and some cold/heat/int/str/power buffs and a small tri target melee proc. Necros got 100% FD, res, poison/deciase buff and those hearts that can give ekstra power. If you were the raid/group leader what would you bring for the tough fight?. (both i hope cas wiz/necros are great together) </p><p>I hope you dont take this as a an atack on necros, it is pure ment to get you a better understanding of the wizard class.</p><p>     </p></blockquote></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Luna Ithil wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr><div>Great statement, here is the problem necro's have very little utility in eq2 and wizard/warlock types have good utility. I am not so sure wizards/warlocks deserve to be magically put at the top fo the dps pile just because.</div><div> </div><div>IE sure pet is great but hey when you can root a mob and nuke it dead who needs a pet? There are plenty of variations that was just an example, but how good of dps is a necro doing compared to a wizard on a mob with alot of ae attacks? where is the necro utility? there is almsot none. Fear worthless, stun worthless etc..</div><p></p><hr><p>I am sorry to say this, and i realy dont want to get to entalgeld in the who "NERF THEM ALL" discussion, but what you are saying isent true, or at best an overstatement.</p><p>Wizards got a small mana trasfere -My gues it that i can give the tank one ekstra taunt or the healer one ekstra heal, so in a realy realy close race i can tip the balance but i have only seen it once ot twise.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">Hearts are just as useless.  So if we cannot bring up mana transfer as a useful utility, please stop bringing up hearts.</font></p><p>Wizards can root. We got two roots, one AE, and one singel target root. But roots are unstabil, they get resisted, they break and they have recast timers. So roots are not some wondertool for soloing. If a mob gets close to me i will most likely die, i dont have a 100% FD to save me. (wizards get a small ward that trigger at 30% health).  </p><p><font color="#ff0000">Pets die, pets dont always keep agro, any other pet but a tank pet is not a shield to us.  Actually root maintains agro much better than any pet. :smileytongue:</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">I cant argue with FD, I love it, but that is simply a necro only utility, just like other get out of jail free cards, evac, etc.  Just because we FD, doesnt mean we wont die when we stand up.</font></p><p>To say that Necros comes off worse in the utility game then wizard is imho not true. Wizards get evac and power transfere and some cold/heat/int/str/power buffs and a small tri target melee proc. Necros got 100% FD, res, poison/deciase buff and those hearts that can give ekstra power. If you were the raid/group leader what would you bring for the tough fight?. (both i hope cas wiz/necros are great together) </p><p><font color="#ff0000">If I were a raid leader, I would have one necro and one wizard if that is the choice, not two of one type.</font></p><p>I hope you dont take this as a an atack on necros, it is pure ment to get you a better understanding of the wizard class.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I hope you dont take this a bash on the wizard class, but many of you are very selective in what you want to admit you bring to the table, refuse to admit you have awesome solo ability, and have a very nice niche in raids for certain type of encounters and mobs.</font></p><p>     </p></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>

[Deson]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Luna Ithil wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><div>Great statement, here is the problem necro's have very little utility in eq2 and wizard/warlock types have good utility. I am not so sure wizards/warlocks deserve to be magically put at the top fo the dps pile just because.</div><div> </div><div>IE sure pet is great but hey when you can root a mob and nuke it dead who needs a pet? There are plenty of variations that was just an example, but how good of dps is a necro doing compared to a wizard on a mob with alot of ae attacks? where is the necro utility? there is almsot none. Fear worthless, stun worthless etc..</div><hr><p>I am sorry to say this, and i realy dont want to get to entalgeld in the who "NERF THEM ALL" discussion, but what you are saying isent true, or at best an overstatement.</p><p>Wizards got a small mana trasfere -My gues it that i can give the tank one ekstra taunt or the healer one ekstra heal, so in a realy realy close race i can tip the balance but i have only seen it once ot twise.</p><p>Wizards can root. We got two roots, one AE, and one singel target root. But roots are unstabil, they get resisted, they break and they have recast timers. So roots are not some wondertool for soloing. If a mob gets close to me i will most likely die, i dont have a 100% FD to save me. (wizards get a small ward that trigger at 30% health).  </p><p>To say that Necros comes off worse in the utility game then wizard is imho not true. Wizards get evac and power transfere and some cold/heat/int/str/power buffs and a small tri target melee proc. Necros got 100% FD, res, poison/deciase buff and those hearts that can give ekstra power. If you were the raid/group leader what would you bring for the tough fight?. (both i hope cas wiz/necros are great together) </p><p>I hope you dont take this as a an atack on necros, it is pure ment to get you a better understanding of the wizard class.</p><p>     </p></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>WIzard power xfer is on par with hearts. Only difference is the annoyance of 'twitching' in the first place and I'm sorry for anyone that has to do it that way. As for the Poison/Disease buff, you get an equivalent, every mage does. The major utility differences betweeen necro's and sorc's  are the pet speed bump(though the scout can survive a few rounds in a group), FD and rez.Who has more utility is all a matter of what you see utility as. I personally think every other mage class has more utility and laid out that view in a post around LU13, but then I see damage shields and procs as utility, as well as AoE stuns and stifles.For those arguing about raid utility, we are almost the same. Minus rez, nothing we have stands out that doesn't have a sorc equivalent.</span> The major problem I see is for Sorc's is game mechanics. We gain far more benefits from group buffs than they do since our pets are affeected as well. Mages have no use for haste and melee procs/dps increasers but we, when using the scout, take full advantage of those buffs and the mage pet can double up any group casting procs. It's not our DPS but the absolute damage parse is all that's important on a raid. If we have more survivablity, easier aggro management and do more absolute damage, why have sorc's? I don't disagree with their complaints, I just think the problem is more in their design than ours.I don't raid and just about every group I've been in T1 classes parse above me as long as it's not a marathon kill. Sorc's have posted a whole range of suggestions that don't involve us and I hope some of those get chosen over a major hit to us.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:07 AM</span></p>

[Jasuo]

<div></div>Necros aren't nerfed, and don't need to be nerfed. Sorceror's need a class overhaul from SOE, we all (mages) have great utility, but some of it can't be used on EPICs...oh well..boo hoo...move along.  To properly balance utility, they'd have to make stuns/stifles/mezzes work on EPICs, but then the melee folks would cry nerf/ balance, in the world of MMO's there will be no balance because there is always some shmuck out there incapable of playing their own class properly... and upon seeing another class whom they thought beneath them outperform them, they will whine to their other pathetic friends and then get the nerfing bandwagon going. And since a company like SOE has more of these types of players (nowadays anyway) they will largely give them what they want to keep the cash flow coming. Oh and I also play a troubador/brigand/shadowknight and you would never hear me crying because a mage stunned/mezzed/stifled a mob so I could beat on it without it hurting me...don't know about you, but I like my health in the green <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> and the more crowd control available, the better.I myself will keep playing my necromancer because it's a class I really love playing, no matter the "nerf" or "balance" they throw our way I will simply find a new way to make up for it.And if hearts are so useless why is it I get a million tells for the different kinds we give out?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Jasuo on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:26 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jasuo wrote:And if hearts are so useless why is it I get a million tells for the different kinds we give out?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>The comment was in the context of wizards saying their power transfer sucks because it gives a small amount.  They said it was useless, so in that context, I think you can follow where the comment came from.</p><p>And I am not sure how many hearts you  have, but I only have one spell per tier that is worth using.</p>

[Jasuo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div>And I am not sure how many hearts you  have, but I only have one spell per tier that is worth using.<hr></blockquote>I always give out both the Ruinous and Sacrificial hearts to all the healers/ MT & MA and a Ruinous to everyone else who wants one before raids start, that way its easier to refresh them without everyone screaming for a heart at once. And in group situations where we are chain pulling or trying to clear a "dungeon" to beat our time record everyone gets both...even myself...in case I die and need to rejuice. And what if by chance you die on a riad and everyone has used up their one heart you gave them and you can't get a rez...doesn't hurt casting that extra spell.</span></div>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>Ah makes sense.</p><p>We usualy have 2 necros and 2 conj on the raids so we have never needed to cast more than one type.</p><p> </p>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Slaymacht wrote:<div></div><div>I don't understand all the nerf crying, are these people that only solo?? i mean don't you want a powerful class in your group to be able to take down mobs, especially in a raid? What are we balancing by nerfing classes? We are all helping each other in groups and raids , stop looking at parsers, so what if someone did a little more damage then you.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Because most of the people whining have small a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and want to be top dps in a virtual world so they can feel powerful because in real life they feel inferior.

[Enigm]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Suraklin wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Slaymacht wrote:<div></div><div>I don't understand all the nerf crying, are these people that only solo?? i mean don't you want a powerful class in your group to be able to take down mobs, especially in a raid? What are we balancing by nerfing classes? We are all helping each other in groups and raids , stop looking at parsers, so what if someone did a little more damage then you.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Because most of the people whining have small a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and want to be top dps in a virtual world so they can feel powerful because in real life they feel inferior.<hr></blockquote><p><font size="7" color="#ff0000">BINGO! We have a winner! </font></p><p><font size="3" color="#ffffff">This is the number one reason people whine about the have's and the have nots!</font></p>

[Davngr1]

<div><div>all i ask is, in what way does nerfing one class fix any other class?  and why is it that every time i unlocked my toons potentail SoE keeps nerfing him? ...oh yea...and i want sexy pets...no more specs with little animation(hard to know if he's still engaed or not on link mobs), the gargoile is cool but, it took some getting use to...and whats up with my animaton..no more boom, explosion on lich...no more engulphing smoke on pet grim or consumption....what?..did other classes cry cause our animation was over the top?...or is it just another bug?....am I on the right forum? for my questions to be answerd?.. it'; just a game and i'll have fun regardless but if they keep finding ways to make necros mondane ...then groups will have no use for a necro...and thats really sad cause i really like my necro....ok servers are back up, ennuf of this whining....master your class and you and your group will enjoy every encounter...</div><div> </div></div>

[Wulgry]

<span><blockquote><hr>all i ask is, in what way does nerfing one class fix any other class?<hr></blockquote>Power balance is relative.  If 10 classes are really close to each other in power and one is ahead, you nerf the one ahead, rather than give boosts to all the others and risk more imbalances, bugs, etc.  It makes sense and nerfs are sometimes necessary.  Particularly in a PVP environment.That said, I think necros and most of the classes are fine but that's just my opinion.</span><div></div>

[Shonin]

<div></div><p>After reading every single one of these post I am amazed truly amazed at some people's inability to properly format their thoughts over such an inportant topic.  To compare your personal experiences with parses to say that summoners are to powerful is not nearly enough data to ask for a change.  Many people have talked about how the different encounters, situaitons, level ranges, classs, buffs etc effect the final outcome of the parse and all of us know the parsers we download are not 100% reliable.  There was lots of and lots of talk of teir 1, teir 2, and teir 3 dps charts and where we are supposed to be is teir 2.  How do you know we are not at teir 2?  If you take all the data of every single fight, of every single class for the past week where would each class be?  This is the data that SOE has not us.  Do I reach the top of a parser?  Sometimes, but generally as stated when it is a considerly long fight with an x4 epic with no PBAOE.  I also hear people arguing against this saying that a good raid will have all the best gear and proper classes, well not all of us are there yet with gear or the right classes so that is not a fair statment for the vast majority of us.  I am generally in the top 10 in other situations in raids, but often I am rezzing people, or passing out hearts and I don't make the list at all.  Necro and summoners are very good at solo content as well, but what some necros can do versus other class is also based on so many factors.  In xp groups I rarely have to go through all my spells if their, is a wizard, warlock, ranger etc, they just kill to fast.   I feel for everyone demanding that necros be nerfed needs to ask SOE for a true statisical report before they start making some unbelievable statements.  There is times I have posted some stupidly high dps numbers using my mage pet, and using my targeted aoe, people were going nuts, but they when I explained that was damage spread out through all the mobs they understood.  I have been playing my necro since Jan 05 where you really weren't a necro till your mid 30s, and I struggled and struggled with him, but when the combat revamp came out, I was very happy, then they cut out lich proc, they weakend out  pets hps etc, but I still kept playing, I love to play him.  I also play a bezerker and an assasin.  My assasin at 24 could do more dmg in a single shot that my necro could before KoS, and I am not saying by any means they are comparable they are not it is just going to the fact that necros are sustatined damage over time, with very good agrro managment,, as well as some pretty nice utility.  All this complaining came after the rangers got over tweaked twice in a row, we all know that is a major issue and this is a problem of working things out not who is on top or who is best.  It may be a good idea for us a  community to request this data, and from there lets discuss it, because we can not get a true picture of where a necro is at or any other class based soley on our personal gaming experience.  This being said for the couple of the people who claimed to be necros, I am doubting your stories to much, that is all I am going to say about that.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Suraklin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shonin35 wrote:<div></div><p>After reading every single one of these post I am amazed truly amazed at some people's inability to properly format their thoughts over such an inportant topic.  To compare your personal experiences with parses to say that summoners are to powerful is not nearly enough data to ask for a change.  Many people have talked about how the different encounters, situaitons, level ranges, classs, buffs etc effect the final outcome of the parse and all of us know the parsers we download are not 100% reliable.  There was lots of and lots of talk of teir 1, teir 2, and teir 3 dps charts and where we are supposed to be is teir 2.  How do you know we are not at teir 2?  If you take all the data of every single fight, of every single class for the past week where would each class be?  This is the data that SOE has not us.  Do I reach the top of a parser?  Sometimes, but generally as stated when it is a considerly long fight with an x4 epic with no PBAOE.  I also hear people arguing against this saying that a good raid will have all the best gear and proper classes, well not all of us are there yet with gear or the right classes so that is not a fair statment for the vast majority of us.  I am generally in the top 10 in other situations in raids, but often I am rezzing people, or passing out hearts and I don't make the list at all.  Necro and summoners are very good at solo content as well, but what some necros can do versus other class is also based on so many factors.  In xp groups I rarely have to go through all my spells if their, is a wizard, warlock, ranger etc, they just kill to fast.   I feel for everyone demanding that necros be nerfed needs to ask SOE for a true statisical report before they start making some unbelievable statements.  There is times I have posted some stupidly high dps numbers using my mage pet, and using my targeted aoe, people were going nuts, but they when I explained that was damage spread out through all the mobs they understood.  I have been playing my necro since Jan 05 where you really weren't a necro till your mid 30s, and I struggled and struggled with him, but when the combat revamp came out, I was very happy, then they cut out lich proc, they weakend out  pets hps etc, but I still kept playing, I love to play him.  I also play a bezerker and an assasin.  My assasin at 24 could do more dmg in a single shot that my necro could before KoS, and I am not saying by any means they are comparable they are not it is just going to the fact that necros are sustatined damage over time, with very good agrro managment,, as well as some pretty nice utility.  All this complaining came after the rangers got over tweaked twice in a row, we all know that is a major issue and this is a problem of working things out not who is on top or who is best.  It may be a good idea for us a  community to request this data, and from there lets discuss it, because we can not get a true picture of where a necro is at or any other class based soley on our personal gaming experience.  This being said for the couple of the people who claimed to be necros, I am doubting your stories to much, that is all I am going to say about that.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Paragraphs are your friend lol

[Shonin]

<div></div>I was at work and in hurry, besides it's not an essay.

[Fle]

<div></div>I agree with ya Shonin.

[KBern]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shonin35 wrote:<div></div>I was at work and in hurry, besides it's not an essay.<hr></blockquote><p>It just helps people read what you are trying to say.  On a message board format, that is hurtful and many won't even read it.</p><p>He was not trolling you, he was giving advice.:smileytongue:</p>

[Yirabeth]

<span><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Shonin35 wrote:<div></div>I was at work and in hurry, besides it's not an essay.<hr></blockquote><p>It just helps people read what you are trying to say.  On a message board format, that is hurtful and many won't even read it.</p><p>He was not trolling you, he was giving advice.:smileytongue:</p><hr></blockquote>/giggles Yep, first thing I thought was I'm really amazed at the unintended pun of that first sentence....*g* (My guild is big on puns, sorry..hehe)It really is hurtful to read, and hard to stay on the line you're reading etc <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> While it really isn't an essay, if you make it in a readable format you'll get more readers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Yira</span><div></div>