Necro raid utility vs raid dps - Comparison Table

[prince_sd]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I couldn't believe my eyes when BG posted those notes on dps nerf. Not a single increase to our utility. And from his next posts it seems it is on the cards, just delayed.I was even more surprised looking at some necro posts saying ya we have utility. Open up your eyes people and if you don't believe me look at this table.We have utility, yes, but so does every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class out there. We don't hold a candle to the utility brigands bring to the raid and they are in the same dps tier as us.Just because the wizards cry hoarse about their low dps and our high dps and utility doesn't mean we have more. Look at the wizard utility and they are supposedly a tier lower in utility than us<img src="http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/3613/comparison3tj.jpg"><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:02 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:27 PM</span></p>

[kenji]

<div></div><div>where is the wis, sta tap debuff?</div><div> </div><div>and charm?</div>

[prince_sd]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><div>where is the wis, sta tap debuff?</div><div> </div><div>and charm?</div><hr></blockquote>Ah good point. I knew i had forgotten something.Charm in raids ? this is raid utility only.</span></div>

[Arrowheart]

<div></div><div></div><p>First let me say I understand your frustration and say I would hate to see the necro class nerfed (or any class for that matter, nerfbat stinks no matter who it hits). However I do not think you can so easily compare classes and I do not think comparing raid only utility will make your point (the dps and utility tiers were not based on raid only ability). Anyways on to some things you need to note about your chart and comparisons you made:</p><p>I dont play a high level wizard (had one around 30 once was all) but I do have a warlock and if you are comparing Raid utility only the interrupt spell you listed, warlock or wizard version does not work on epics. And I wouldnt try comparing Necro FD to Monk FD there are some noticable differences (necro is 100% success and doesnt have to be upgraded, monk even at master 1 for the level 56 spell is only 96% so it can and will fail at times) besides the point you were making your comparisons to another class in the pic why change 1 utility and compare it to another class without comparing all the utility of the class vs that class. Plus necro FD is getting lowered to a 5 min recast which will make it alot more useful for raids. You also mention that Rez is not very useful because other classes have better versions, but it doesnt really matter what percent it is. FD + Rez = very useful for raids, especially for select instances that you can not revive inzone. Also another debuff that necros get is Swarm of Bats (lowers mob defense) which was missed on the list. And just my opinion but I would say a choice of 3 pets and 2 stances along with a berserk buff are pretty good utility for us as well making us very flexible for many situations.</p><p>When it comes down to it, necromancers do indeed have good utility (raid or group wise in my opinion even though I think you take it for granted or just dont realize it). And like I said I do understand your frustration, I enjoy the class alot and hate to think about any nerf coming to it although from what I read I am not sure the changes would have been devastating (far as I know nobody even got to test them to see how much of a dps change it would have been had they been actually included). If they had been included and there was data to back it up that it was "too much" or unjustified etc and displaces us on the dps tier then maybe there would be reason to complain but at this point it serves little purpose.</p><p>Message Edited by Arrowheart on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:06 AM</span></p>

[prince_sd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Arrowheart wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>FFD + Rez = very useful for raids, especially for select instances that you can not revive inzone.</p><hr></blockquote>What raid doesn't have a revive inzone ?And why shouldn't i talk about raid utility ? When everyone talks about dps they talk about our raid dps. necros are not t1 dps in groups. Matter closed there.</span>

[Eirgo]

<div></div><div></div>EDIT - My post wasnt exactly on topic - sorry.<p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:32 AM</span></p>

[prince_sd]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Arrowheart wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Plus necro FD is getting lowered to a 5 min recast which will make it alot more useful for raids. You also mention that Rez is not very useful because other classes have better versions, but it doesnt really matter what percent it is. FD + Rez = very useful for raids, especially for select instances that you can not revive inzone.</p><p>When it comes down to it, necromancers do indeed have good utility</p><hr></blockquote>Lol this is just so wrong. Even after looking at the chart are you telling me we have good utility as compared to a wizard ?You know i mentioned FD & Rez there for completeness just like i did wiz evac spell. I have never used either spell in raids because of revive points inside. Period.</span></div>

[Arrowheart]

<div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span>Lol this is just so wrong. Even after looking at the chart are you telling me we have good utility as compared to a wizard ?You know i mentioned FD & Rez there for completeness just like i did wiz evac spell. I have never used either spell in raids because of revive points inside. Period.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I know I shouldnt feed the troll (those warning signs are there for a reason) but I cant resist...</div><div> </div><div>Looking at your chart I do say our utility is alot better than a wizards, if you cant see it your either blind or [well i'll be polite and not say what I am thinking]. Honestly if your so envious why dont you roll a wizard and quit whining. And wow you have never used Rez or FD during a raid, you must be in the most elite guild ever period!</div>

[Azreaelle]

<div></div><p>From one of my previous posts:</p><p><font color="#ffff00">In addition to the sta/wis debuff, at 52 (or 53) you'll get Drawing of Souls which is a Str/Int debuff... both of which proc with lich. I never start a hard fight without casting these. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Being able to FD and rez without having a feather supplied is not too shabby.  No one has a long distance rez like ours and its been quite useful with group members being flung all over the place by the repulser sentinels (or whatever their called) in Silent City.  During raids, sacrificial hearts are a must for long fights... not to mention the fact that we can also supply the healer with needed health to cast their manastone and heart.   </font><font color="#ffffff">In addition to what I stated before, we can supply multiple casters with extra mana simultaneously while the wiazard is limited to one power transfer at a time.  I never hear calls from my healers for wizzies to mana transfer but I get 10-20 requests per raid for hearts <em>after</em> the initial one they all get at the start of raid.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Our root is a full minute and while it doesn't work on epics its a "ghetto mez" in a pinch for mobs like The Keeper and Cazel.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Lastly, our Master 2 Teachings of the Shadows buffs Int and Sta by 69 which can be quite useful for the MT.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">All of these above things (and I'm sure I've missed some) are <em>in addition</em> to our dps so clearly we have many roles.   </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Necro is really a great class and I honestly feel we are always an asset to any group or raid.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"></font> </p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff"> </font></font></p><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Arrowheart wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Plus necro FD is getting lowered to a 5 min recast which will make it alot more useful for raids. You also mention that Rez is not very useful because other classes have better versions, but it doesnt really matter what percent it is. FD + Rez = very useful for raids, especially for select instances that you can not revive inzone.</p><p>When it comes down to it, necromancers do indeed have good utility</p><hr></blockquote>Lol this is just so wrong. Even after looking at the chart are you telling me we have good utility as compared to a wizard ?You know i mentioned FD & Rez there for completeness just like i did wiz evac spell. I have never used either spell in raids because of revive points inside. Period.</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>If you've never FD'd in a raid and rezzed the rest of the raid at the point of your progression inside the zone then you are doing your guild a diservice (or your guild has never once wiped :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  I can't count how many times we've been 2 hours into Gates (water traps galore) or deep inside silent city farming eyes and FD + rez saved the raid the time and effort of running back from zone in.  Sure, if its Lockjaw, Poets or Court (when the mobs are still non-aggro) then reviving in zone is not an issue but with many raids its just a PIA to have to run all the way back.  </p><p> </p><p>Bottom line is this: if you don't like the class, don't play it.  If you think wizards are *uberer* then play a wizard.  My mom always told me there will always be someone better than you at something and there will always be someone worse than you.  I think that's pretty darn good advice and I wish more peeps would take it. </p><p></p>

[prince_sd]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Arrowheart wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span>Lol this is just so wrong. Even after looking at the chart are you telling me we have good utility as compared to a wizard ?You know i mentioned FD & Rez there for completeness just like i did wiz evac spell. I have never used either spell in raids because of revive points inside. Period.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I know I shouldnt feed the troll (those warning signs are there for a reason) but I cant resist...</div><div> </div><div>Looking at your chart I do say our utility is alot better than a wizards, if you cant see it your either blind or [well i'll be polite and not say what I am thinking]. Honestly if your so envious why dont you roll a wizard and quit whining. And wow you have never used Rez or FD during a raid, you must be in the most elite guild ever period!</div><hr></blockquote>Nice try dude. I have 300 posts and you have 180 which makes me a troll. Nice try .So, looking at the chart we have a lot more utility than wizards. Wow. Lets say I am blind. Please can you do the honor and help this blind person understand please.Think. Think a bit. Recall what happens on raids.Do necros rez on raids ? NO. we rez with 15% health 0% power. We don't rez on raids. Pallies and dirges do that.Necros FD in raid ? Its on a 15 min (or now 5min) timer. Monks do it with a 10s timer.Who said i have wizard envy ? I love my necro. I played my necro before LU13 when we are broken. I never want to play a wizard.Infact i quit my necro after LU13 because soe did a sham in the name of balanceI posted the chart to show you we don't have the utility we are touted to have in comparison to a tier1 dps class. I can take a damage reduction so that necros are tier2 dps class but not without 1 FULL TIER OF UTILITY MORE.</span></div>

[Arrowheart]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Arrowheart wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span>Lol this is just so wrong. Even after looking at the chart are you telling me we have good utility as compared to a wizard ?You know i mentioned FD & Rez there for completeness just like i did wiz evac spell. I have never used either spell in raids because of revive points inside. Period.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I know I shouldnt feed the troll (those warning signs are there for a reason) but I cant resist...</div><div> </div><div>Looking at your chart I do say our utility is alot better than a wizards, if you cant see it your either blind or [well i'll be polite and not say what I am thinking]. Honestly if your so envious why dont you roll a wizard and quit whining. And wow you have never used Rez or FD during a raid, you must be in the most elite guild ever period!</div><hr></blockquote>Nice try dude. I have 300 posts and you have 180 which makes me a troll. Nice try .So, looking at the chart we have a lot more utility than wizards. Wow. Lets say I am blind. Please can you do the honor and help this blind person understand please.Think. Think a bit. Recall what happens on raids.Do necros rez on raids ? NO. we rez with 15% health 0% power. We don't rez on raids. Pallies and dirges do that.Necros FD in raid ? Its on a 15 min (or now 5min) timer. Monks do it with a 10s timer.Who said i have wizard envy ? I love my necro. I played my necro before LU13 when we are broken. I never want to play a wizard.Infact i quit my necro after LU13 because soe did a sham in the name of balanceI posted the chart to show you we don't have the utility we are touted to have in comparison to a tier1 dps class. I can take a damage reduction so that necros are tier2 dps class but not without 1 FULL TIER OF UTILITY MORE.</span></div><hr></blockquote><div>Apparently the troll is still hungry (I hear its belly rumbling)....</div><div> </div><div>So you are greater > me because your post count is more than mine (wow how mature) ?</div><div>Hmm maybe your not a troll just a whiner who likes to post alot?</div><div>Get over it, the changes DID NOT go live or even to test and there is no ETA if they ever even will.</div><div> </div><div>You have no valid point, your chart proves nothing, and there are other posts prior to yours that are more appropriate to discuss whatever it is you think you know or are trying to say...</div>

[prince_sd]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><div> </div><div>So you are greater > me because your post count is more than mine (wow how mature) ?</div><hr></blockquote>Lol. thats funny. Was it so difficult to understand for you.Read it again. I said we both hardly have any number of posts so you calling me a forum troll is stupid.</span>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You have no valid point, your chart proves nothing, and there are other posts prior to yours that are more appropriate to discuss whatever it is you think you know or are trying to say...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Lol sure. So my comparison chart proves nothing but these empty words of yours prove a lot.</div><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p>

[TheFat]

<div></div><p>Well, the way I see things is that neither necros or wizards are utility classes. The utility is just the icing on our dps cake. I've never seen a group or raid that complained about it being too hard to take on a certain encounter without us.</p><p>As a necro, yes I rez during raids because normally the pallies are too busy warding or acting as backup healers. And dirges? My guild has troubadors all over the place but no high level dirges. So again, I'm best suited to throwing out a quick rez to get a part member back on their feet. But again, not my primary function. Yes, I FD during wipes if for nothing else than to avoid repair costs. In most places we're all just going to revive anyway so that we have full health and power. And my little candy coated hearts? Yeah, people love those because they give a little extra bump. Again, not earth shattering, just a nice little bonus.</p><p>Wizards? They're in raids and groups for dps. Plain and simple. Yes their procs are nice, and yes pumping mana to the healers is helpful but people really don't notice when it's not there. I've never heard a raid leader say "Yeah, we COULD take on that dragon but I really don't want to do it since we don't have that wizzie proc on our assassin." Again, they're just icing skills.</p><p>The most beneficial contribution of "utility" I've seen for these two classes are the elemental and poison/disease resist buffs. Even then, there are usually better choices to fill that last slot in the MT group.</p><p>In my mind the only utility classes are Illusionists, Coercers, Troubadors, Dirges, and if you really want to stretch it, Swashbucklers and Brigands. Oh, and I also consider all healers to be utility classes but they tend to get mad when I do that. Apparently they prefer "Support Class". Eh, whatever. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So for all of the rest of us to be arguing about who has more utility, and how this or that spell makes up for X amount of damage... it just seems kind of ridiculous. Whether we like it or not, our main job is almost always going to be dps. If we're counted on for our healing, or ghetto-mezzing, etc. it just means the group we're in is missing a class.</p><p>As always, just my opinion. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[lordofdrago]

prince_sdNecros do have good utility value.  I won't bother trying to explain it, however, I'd group with a good necro over a good wizard ANY day,  I'd raid with a good necro over a good wizard any day.  Res, heal, having  pet to tank in pinch,  these things all matter.  Another thing is that necros can do their damage without drawing nearly the agro and ping-ponging the mobs like wizards do.  A necro is far more flexible than a wizard.  Your pet can continure to do damage while you provide other services., so you can do 2 things at once.  Thats not true with a wizard.I will say this though for raids and groups:  A bad necro is a much bigger problem than a bad wizard.  I say that from the point of view of an Enchanter and a Healer.ArrowheartYour first response was very well thought out and respectful.  Then you seemed to pop your cork.. I can't see what happened there.My 2cents.Dyrr - 59 Coercer, OasisBalance - 60 Brusier, Oasis53 Defiler, Oasis<div></div>

[Arrowheart]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>lordofdragons wrote:ArrowheartYour first response was very well thought out and respectful.  Then you seemed to pop your cork.. I can't see what happened there.My 2cents.Dyrr - 59 Coercer, OasisBalance - 60 Brusier, Oasis53 Defiler, Oasis<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You are right I should have left it at that, I said all I wanted to in my first post. This guy however just ticked me off with his crap that he never Rezs or FD ever and what he says is just the way it is and all that garbage. I let him get to me instead of ignoring his comments. He doesnt want to listen to anyone elses opinion he just wants to whine about his.</p><p>Message Edited by Arrowheart on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:10 AM</span></p>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Arrowheart wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div><span>Lol this is just so wrong. Even after looking at the chart are you telling me we have good utility as compared to a wizard ?You know i mentioned FD & Rez there for completeness just like i did wiz evac spell. I have never used either spell in raids because of revive points inside. Period.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I know I shouldnt feed the troll (those warning signs are there for a reason) but I cant resist...</div><div> </div><div>Looking at your chart I do say our utility is alot better than a wizards, if you cant see it your either blind or [well i'll be polite and not say what I am thinking]. Honestly if your so envious why dont you roll a wizard and quit whining. And wow you have never used Rez or FD during a raid, you must be in the most elite guild ever period!</div><hr></blockquote>Nice try dude. I have 300 posts and you have 180 which makes me a troll. Nice try .So, looking at the chart we have a lot more utility than wizards. Wow. Lets say I am blind. Please can you do the honor and help this blind person understand please.Think. Think a bit. Recall what happens on raids.Do necros rez on raids ? NO. we rez with 15% health 0% power. We don't rez on raids. Pallies and dirges do that.Necros FD in raid ? Its on a 15 min (or now 5min) timer. Monks do it with a 10s timer.Who said i have wizard envy ? I love my necro. I played my necro before LU13 when we are broken. I never want to play a wizard.Infact i quit my necro after LU13 because soe did a sham in the name of balanceI posted the chart to show you we don't have the utility we are touted to have in comparison to a tier1 dps class. I can take a damage reduction so that necros are tier2 dps class but not without 1 FULL TIER OF UTILITY MORE.</span></div><hr></blockquote>hehe, so what, I have more posts than you. neener neener.Your assessment is flawed and scewed. Necros have a mixed batch of overall utility. We can do pretty much anything any other class can do in the game, but in almost all cases its limited to a great degree.Saying we have no utility is a lie. Saying we have lesser forms of the same ultility other classes also have is more accurate.The Rez/FD combo is our only real unique aspect. Every other area, buffs, debuffs, charms, stuns, fears, direct damage, dots, tanking, healing, etc... we're 2nd or worse place in everything, not 1st in any... But that's the balance of the summoner class, and specifically the necro class. We do dam near everything, but we don't do any of it as well as the class primarily doing it.The problem is that people see we can do all that stuff and scream foul... not really understanding that we're not doing it as well as X-class does it. But in their heads they're seeing a cleric, warrior, wizard, rogue, and chanter all rolled into 1 ubber class... This is the real misconseption about summoner classes.But ultimately I think summoners are a little bit ahead of the curve becasue a well played summoner is MUCH better than the sum of its individual pieces. The fact we can do all this stuff even if only to a limited degree gives us an edge thats very hard to measure.

[Vates_Sac]

<div></div>I will not be like some of the others, I am thankful for the information you posted, its not complete as some have pointed out, but at least it was thought out.  Our utility stuff is for benifiting us, not others really when you come to think about it.  Besides our hearts and rez, we dont have evac, we dont have run speed increasing stuff, but overall we can add alot to a raid or group, just need work your magic, and pray for good changes.  Stay strong, Stay Necro

[prince_sd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Vates_Sacer wrote:<div></div>I will not be like some of the others, I am thankful for the information you posted, its not complete as some have pointed out, but at least it was thought out.<hr></blockquote>Thank you.I know it isn't a complete effort.I wanted to compare only the raid utility. I was just getting so tired of people posting the dps from the longest raid fight and then saying we also have the biggest utility. Its like comparing apples with oranges.</span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Vates_Sacer wrote:<div></div>I will not be like some of the others, I am thankful for the information you posted, its not complete as some have pointed out, but at least it was thought out.<hr></blockquote>Thank you.I know it isn't a complete effort.I wanted to compare only the raid utility. I was just getting so tired of people posting the dps from the longest raid fight and then saying we also have the biggest utility. Its like comparing apples with oranges.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Well its true. Compare yourself to a wizard for example</p><p>You have way more Utility, More DPS, and more Defense.... so what exactly are they better at than you?</p>

[The Ban]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I couldn't believe my eyes when BG posted those notes on dps nerf. Not a single increase to our utility. And from his next posts it seems it is on the cards, just delayed.I was even more surprised looking at some necro posts saying ya we have utility. Open up your eyes people and if you don't believe me look at this table.We have utility, yes, but so does every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class out there. We don't hold a candle to the utility brigands bring to the raid and they are in the same dps tier as us.Just because the wizards cry hoarse about their low dps and our high dps and utility doesn't mean we have more. Look at the wizard utility and they are supposedly a tier lower in utility than us<img src="http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/3613/comparison3tj.jpg"><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:02 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow Good job on skewing the facts.</p><p>I know my necro has much more utility than that</p><p>As far as utility I have</p><p> </p><p>Flayers Soul</p><p>Drawing of Souls</p><p>FD</p><p>Fear</p><p>Rez</p><p>Unstobable Soul</p><p>Soothing Soul</p><p>Abominable Mark</p><p>Teachings of the Shadows</p><p>Charm</p><p>Necromantic Insignia</p><p>Consumtion</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Comparing Sorceror utility to Necromancer utility is actually quite funny. I have both my Necro is my main now and he easily has twice the utility of my warlock. On top of that he has more survability aswell.</p><p>Oh yeah I almost forgot he does more DPS aswell.</p>

[Chabisu]

As far as raiding goes, you might have some good points. I'm not really sure as I don't raid myself as I've stated elsewhere. I would think though that even there we have the win based on what you listed. Just little things like our hearts being based on a renewable resource (our health which we can tap right back), rez which while not as good as others is still better than nothing, and the fact that we also offer things like debuffs and heals.When it comes to grouping though, this comparison flies out the window. At least when I talk about Necromancer utility, that's where I'm directing my response. Sure we aren't a utility class like I view my Coercer alt, but we have hands down more than a Wizard or Warlock.

[prince_sd]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>The Banff wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>prince_sd wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I couldn't believe my eyes when BG posted those notes on dps nerf. Not a single increase to our utility. And from his next posts it seems it is on the cards, just delayed.I was even more surprised looking at some necro posts saying ya we have utility. Open up your eyes people and if you don't believe me look at this table.We have utility, yes, but so does every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class out there. We don't hold a candle to the utility brigands bring to the raid and they are in the same dps tier as us.Just because the wizards cry hoarse about their low dps and our high dps and utility doesn't mean we have more. Look at the wizard utility and they are supposedly a tier lower in utility than us<img src="http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/3613/comparison3tj.jpg"><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:02 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Wow Good job on skewing the facts.</p><p>I know my necro has much more utility than that</p><p>As far as utility I have</p><p> </p><p>Flayers Soul</p><p>Drawing of Souls</p><p>FD</p><p>Fear</p><p>Rez</p><p>Unstobable Soul</p><p>Soothing Soul</p><p>Abominable Mark</p><p>Teachings of the Shadows</p><p>Charm</p><p>Necromantic Insignia</p><p>Consumtion</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Comparing Sorceror utility to Necromancer utility is actually quite funny. I have both my Necro is my main now and he easily has twice the utility of my warlock. On top of that he has more survability aswell.</p><p>Oh yeah I almost forgot he does more DPS aswell.</p><hr></blockquote>Sigh. I am tired.For once I think necros should be nerfed the way they were before LU13 so that all these wannabes who rolled necro alts after it and crowd the necro forum can go somewhere else.I can't believe this person. He accuses me of skewing facts and then lists exactly the same utility spells that I have in the chart.Did you even read what i wrote ? Its for raiding.</span></div>

[prince_sd]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Chabisu wrote:As far as raiding goes, you might have some good points. I'm not really sure as I don't raid myself as I've stated elsewhere. I would think though that even there we have the win based on what you listed. Just little things like our hearts being based on a renewable resource (our health which we can tap right back), rez which while not as good as others is still better than nothing, and the fact that we also offer things like debuffs and heals.When it comes to grouping though, this comparison flies out the window. At least when I talk about Necromancer utility, that's where I'm directing my response. Sure we aren't a utility class like I view my Coercer alt, but we have hands down more than a Wizard or Warlock.<hr></blockquote>Ya this is about raiding. Not many people realize that no one invites a necro to a raid for their utility. Ask me, i was a necro before LU13.If our raid dps is dropped below wizards/ warlocks without giving us more utility then i might as well not play the game. Not saying raiding is the only thing but it is my playstyle and thats what i like.I was an eq1 necro and i am an eq2 necro for one and only one thing "sustained raid dps". If a necro starts doing less damage even in long fights then its the end of the class and game for me.</span></div>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>although its abit tricky...</p><p>but we got Lich...1/2% in-combat regen...</p><p>we got group heal / regen....via Mage Pet...</p><p>why i choose my necro rather than Wiz..</p><p>just because i can heal w/o power cost, and lifetap owns after transfer hp. slightly more way to recover hp than a wiz after ae ... if i didnt die.</p><p>i can summon shards when i prepare battle... and still able to give hearts out to anyone in battle (which wiz can only do it in-combat)</p><p> </p><p>if u just look at DPS, really , u went to wrong class. Necro never meant to pure dps like Wizard imo, and if we do equal DPS, we will just screw the game like Healers balance atm.</p>

[prince_sd]

<div></div><div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><p>i can summon shards when i prepare battle... and still able to give hearts out to anyone in battle (which wiz can only do it in-combat)</p><p>if u just look at DPS, really , u went to wrong class. Necro never meant to pure dps like Wizard imo, and if we do equal DPS, we will just screw the game like Healers balance atm.</p><hr></blockquote>I didn't go for necro for dps. I expect a necro to do tier2 dps in short fights & heroic/ group situations. But when it comes to a long raid fight a necro should be equal because of high power efficiency and sustained damage.You see a wizard has been given utilities equal to a necro which should never have been done in the first place. Wizards converting their health into power and transfering power to group members ? why give the necro utilities to other classes and then take away their only defining thing left which is sustained dps.I went a necro thinking tier2 dps, sustained damage in long fights and good utility. But when i see every other class out there they seem to have equal or better utility than me.I myself say necro should be tier2 dps. But give us some utility ? where is my rez with summon corpses ?</span></div><p>The shards and wiz mana twitching are equivalent. Its not as straightforward as it seems.</p><p>Yes i can summon shards before combat. But people have a manastone + spirit shard (conj) + necro heart<span class="time_text"> and 2 charm slots. During a raid it is a horrible inconvenience to open inventory, switch these and then activate.You forget 1 big advantage wiz have. They can mana twitch whenever they seem suitable. I can't make people use my hearts when i want to. Its at their discretion and that too if they use it at all.</span></p><p>Message Edited by prince_sd on <span class="date_text">03-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:05 PM</span></p>

[kenji]

<div></div><p>aw...hm...just summon the shard into your bag, any slot... and move the shard from bag to hotbar, u dont need to equip to use shard....no switching needed.</p><p>we are tier 2 dps...unless Tier 1 oop, but indeed..how often can they goes oop, with super high FT, Manastone, Shard, Heart, Power recovery spell, it's almost impossible to go oop before out-aggro and get killed.</p><p>also...since the raid system is AOE ALOT, the sustained dps from our petssss is...kinda hurt. so the summoner class itself not the problem , the game design is. there is no way to change... if this is the real issue,  u may either stay or quit...</p><p>btw, Fire / Cold dmg in old zones -- DoF and original, has been mostly immune to boss. i can name alot more epics immune to wiz , but hardly completely immune to necros - which does pierce, slash, poison, disease.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Romka]

<span><blockquote><hr>kenjiso wrote:<div></div><p>btw, Fire / Cold dmg in old zones -- DoF and original, has been mostly immune to boss. i can name alot more epics immune to wiz , but hardly completely immune to necros - which does pierce, slash, poison, disease.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Wizards have Cold, Fire, Magic DD spells. Forgot it? There is NO ANY SINGLE MOB immune to all wizard spells.</span><div></div>

[Sonic X]

control undeath is super duper rarely used utility, only time i think i've used it on a raid is when killing lockjaw and even then it would break and guild members would [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] not to do it even though it helped increase dps. It's not like every raid zone has undead mobs in it either.<div></div>

[prince_sd]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>Sonic X wrote:control undeath is super duper rarely used utility, only time i think i've used it on a raid is when killing lockjaw and even then it would break and guild members would [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] not to do it even though it helped increase dps. It's not like every raid zone has undead mobs in it either.A Necromancer way too passionate about his class<div></div><hr></blockquote>I think he is more like a warlock in necro clothes <span>:smileywink:</span> You know one of those thousand who rolled a necro after lu13.</span></span><div></div>

[kenji]

<div></div>yeah, magic dd, so does Necro... almost forgot the DD from Splitpaw.

[kenji]

<div>seems updated, but missing Lich, 1% In-combat power regen, and 144 dd proc when cast.</div><div>and those extras from Drawing of Souls? those AC+HP buffs things should also listed there. since u make wiz's 12 sec duration group dmg shield up, i think our 30s buff should also listed.</div>

[Suraklin]

<div>I play a Summoner and our nerf is coming. How bad it is is yet to be seen. The slip up of them posting changes on Test patcher didn't look horrible. Them saying that's not going to be implemented has me worried I need to stock up on KY Jelly cause it could be a lot worse.</div>

[Jai1]

<div></div><p>I think one utility that we were given with LU13 that a lot of people discount is our heals.  How do you compare that to other mage classes?  Think conjs have stoneskin but isn't that self only?  At 64 I heal for 1250 and basically LT it back.  That with FD and Rez is basically all the utility in a raid that I want.  I feel I contribute.  I think we have more utility in groups though with our spells that don't affect epics.</p>